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Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

ArctisTor

By ArctisTor
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BkWurm1

BkWurm1

Yeah, it has to be the end of 3.17 after they made up but before they went to the Mayor's office. It seemed like the next day but it could have been the next week for all we know. 

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apinknightmare
apinknightmare

I mean, I don't want her in a suit so it's not the "never" in this instance that bothers me, but Marc saying that Felicity specifically would make the notion of superheroics "silly." Why? In this show

Carrie Ann
Carrie Ann

And then someone tells him that what he did was okay because of reasons, or that he can't keep feeling guilty, he just has to move forward. Like, no, just...go ahead and feel really guilty for awhile?

SleepDeprived
SleepDeprived

Hey, now... Listen. The practice of proper etiquette during an impromptu wedding officiated by your best friend in a park, right after the funeral of a beloved colleague, is of the utmost importance,

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quarks

quarks

The main timeline errors were all with Ray/Felicity, and one problem line with Oliver.

 

The last time we saw them on Arrow, Ray said "I love you," and Felicity said, "Jello."  They should not be on affectionate terms at the moment: they should be where Eddie and Iris are right now. At the same time, Ray's "I love you," came only one week or one day after he angrily said that he couldn't trust Felicity, so that came a bit out of the blue.

 

It looks as if 118 was meant to fill that gap: Put Ray and Felicity together in an affectionate situation for an episode so the "I love you" isn't quite as out of the blue, but at the same time, show Felicity having occasional moments of questioning Ray, and/or not seeming as concerned about him as she was for Oliver in the previous crossover, or, for that matter, Barry in this one.   Which is pretty much exactly what happened: Ray's all, "Ok, I'm off to test the robot suit which is not even waterproof and which just nearly killed Roy against a bunch of robot bees that just nearly killed a metahuman guy with superspeed healing but no worries" and Felicity was all "yeah, no worries."  And she had a few questionable glances, and the occasional wincing, with the surface happiness.  And of course the using Oliver as her example of a good guy to Barry, not Ray.

 

That would have sorta set up the "I love you," "Jello!" bit in the Arrow 318 episode.

 

The other line that was off was the "Oliver's joining the League of Assassins." My favorite moment of the episode for lampshading some of the more questionable decisions of Arrow 3B, except that episode 16 ended with Oliver not joining the League of Assassins, which is why Ray went out with the suit in the first place and found out it wasn't totally working.  Sure,

Oliver is going to be joining the LoA soon, but at this point only people who obsess over spoilers know that, and Felicity's not in that group. At least I don't think she is.

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TanyaKay

TanyaKay

In addition to what quarks has said, she was a little irritated/aggravated at Ray Palmer's grand gesture of kicking everyone out of that snooty French restaurant. She kinda grimaced.

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quarks

quarks

Yeah, the episode had quite a few moments suggesting that Felicity isn't that enthralled with Ray: her reactions to his initial innuendos, the way she kept ditching him to talk to Barry - not just once, but four times during the episode; her reaction to the snooty French restaurant; bringing up Oliver, not Ray, as her example of a good guy; her expressions and small sighs after getting told that Ray was a good guy; and, well, the problem that at least to me she seemed to have a deeper connection, and more chemistry, with Barry.

 

To be fair, Ray seemed a lot more enthralled and into Cisco. 

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BkWurm1

BkWurm1

The main timeline errors were all with Ray/Felicity, and one problem line with Oliver.

 

The last time we saw them on Arrow, Ray said "I love you," and Felicity said, "Jello."  They should not be on affectionate terms at the moment: they should be where Eddie and Iris are right now. At the same time, Ray's "I love you," came only one week or one day after he angrily said that he couldn't trust Felicity, so that came a bit out of the blue.

 

It looks as if 118 was meant to fill that gap: Put Ray and Felicity together in an affectionate situation for an episode so the "I love you" isn't quite as out of the blue, but at the same time, show Felicity having occasional moments of questioning Ray, and/or not seeming as concerned about him as she was for Oliver in the previous crossover, or, for that matter, Barry in this one.   Which is pretty much exactly what happened: Ray's all, "Ok, I'm off to test the robot suit which is not even waterproof and which just nearly killed Roy against a bunch of robot bees that just nearly killed a metahuman guy with superspeed healing but no worries" and Felicity was all "yeah, no worries."  And she had a few questionable glances, and the occasional wincing, with the surface happiness.  And of course the using Oliver as her example of a good guy to Barry, not Ray.

 

That would have sorta set up the "I love you," "Jello!" bit in the Arrow 318 episode.

 

The other line that was off was the "Oliver's joining the League of Assassins." My favorite moment of the episode for lampshading some of the more questionable decisions of Arrow 3B, except that episode 16 ended with Oliver not joining the League of Assassins, which is why Ray went out with the suit in the first place and found out it wasn't totally working.  Sure,

Oliver is going to be joining the LoA soon, but at this point only people who obsess over spoilers know that, and Felicity's not in that group. At least I don't think she is.

If you look at the episode as coming after the last one we saw on Arrow, yeah, problems galore, but with knowledge of the adjusted timeline the only line that I found off was the thing about Thea training with Malcolm Merlyn since he's been not moving from the couch for a couple episodes at least (and before that just beat up in Nanda Parbat) 

 

About Oliver her actual line is "Oliver might be joining the League of Assassins," which knowing what Ra's wants and the growing pressure on Oliver seems like a realistic worry for her to have. 

 

 

 

Yeah, the episode had quite a few moments suggesting that Felicity isn't that enthralled with Ray: her reactions to his initial innuendos, the way she kept ditching him to talk to Barry - not just once, but four times during the episode; her reaction to the snooty French restaurant; bringing up Oliver, not Ray, as her example of a good guy; her expressions and small sighs after getting told that Ray was a good guy; and, well, the problem that at least to me she seemed to have a deeper connection, and more chemistry, with Barry.

 

To be fair, Ray seemed a lot more enthralled and into Cisco. 

When she was talking about how Oliver used to come to her with ridiculous excuses, the look on her face, yeah, Momma Smoak called it.  

 

Ray buying out the restaurant for the night was just so...Ray.  Good intentions but too much, a bit dickish and more than slightly out of step and absurd and I say this with the idea I could grow to liking him a lot ...just on his own show.  

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wonderwall

wonderwall

(edited)

When she was talking about how Oliver used to come to her with ridiculous excuses, the look on her face, yeah, Momma Smoak called it.

 

Christmas tree indeed: 

 

tumblr_nmtqo0mrcF1rq49qyo3_r1_250.gif

Edited by wonderwall
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nksarmi

nksarmi

Ok I haven't watched every episode of Flash, but I got say I liked season one Laurel a lot more than Iris.  And I might even like Laurel more now than Iris.  Iris just bugs me.  I don't even care that everyone is lying to her.  I feel sorry for poor Eddie though - his, "So everyone BUT Iris" was such a desperate line.  He really seems to love this woman and he is keeping someone else's secret and totally paying for it.  If Iris dumps Eddie because of Barry's secret - It will take some small bit of my Barry love away and put me firmly in the "I never want Barry and Iris together, I don't give a flip about comics" camp.  Because Barry should NOT get the girl that way.

 

First, I really thought Barry had a good thing going with the girl he was dating (Linda?) and Iris was clearly jealous of that.  She flat out admitted her feelings to Barry, which I wasn't sure she had, but time travel took that away and now she loves Eddie and just thinks of Barry as her friend?  She knows Eddie is keeping something from her, but doesn't know her dad and Barry well enough to realize they are lying to her as well?  Then Barry does that straight up right thing and gives her a perfectly good explanation as to why a cop might not be telling her everything and she's a total bitch to Eddie about it?  No, sorry don't like her - at all.  And I don't want her near Barry lol.

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wonderwall

wonderwall

 

“Oliver might be joining the LoA, Laurel´s The Black Canary, and Thea is training with Malcolm. So I know about bad times!”

 

I was confused about this line, so does Felicity associate Laurel being BC with bad times? Because........ wasn't she the one to actually encourage her to suit up? Such an unnecessary line and Felicity's character suffered for it. It was so OOC. She prides herself in keeping secrets (she's said it multiple times), but here she is telling Barry about everyone's lives/secrets. 

 

Is this AKs way of keeping the Flash fandom up to speed on all things Arrow? Or was it to help introduce Thea/Laurel to the Flash for when they cross over? IDK it's so stupid

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FurryFury

FurryFury

(edited)
Talking about dark, Gotham just had 15 year old Cat tween murder someone.

 

Are they trying to lure Arya Stark fans? Whatever, the ratings of Gotham this week are ever worse than AoS in its 2nd season, and they deserve it, I don't watch it, but I'm following AV club reviews, and holy shit, it seems so bad.

 

does Felicity associate Laurel being BC with bad times?

 

I know I do. Heh.

 

Is this AKs way of keeping the Flash fandom up to speed on all things Arrow?

 

I guess so. It did sound a little weird, but whatever, they needed exposition, I can understand.

Edited by FurryFury
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Chaser

Chaser

I was confused about this line, so does Felicity associate Laurel being BC with bad times? Because........ wasn't she the one to actually encourage her to suit up? Such an unnecessary line and Felicity's character suffered for it. It was so OOC. She prides herself in keeping secrets (she's said it multiple times), but here she is telling Barry about everyone's lives/secrets. 

 

Is this AKs way of keeping the Flash fandom up to speed on all things Arrow? Or was it to help introduce Thea/Laurel to the Flash for when they cross over? IDK it's so stupid

I think that is exactly what it was. I really hope the floater helps this problem because having a character randomly give information dumps is just bad. 

 

What also bugged me was that I actually think Felicity should tell Barry about Oliver's problems with the LOA, at least keep him aware incase they need back-up. I just wish it would have been in a better conversation.

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Sakura12

Sakura12

Are they trying to lure Arya Stark fans? Whatever, the ratings of Gotham this week are ever worse than AoS in its 2nd season, and they deserve it, I don't watch it, but I'm following AV club reviews, and holy shit, it seems so bad.

 

Out of all the Hero shows out right now, Gotham wins at being the worst and most boring. It makes AoS look like quality television. Although Cat Tween shoving a guy out of a window was probably more shocking then anything on AoS so far. 

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Delphi

Delphi

Out of all the Hero shows out right now, Gotham wins at being the worst and most boring. It makes AoS look like quality television. Although Cat Tween shoving a guy out of a window was probably more shocking then anything on AoS so far.

Exciting, Gotham ain't, but I still watch so I guess it must be doing something right, I can't even get through an episode of AoS and I like quite a few of the actors. It's just so generic to me.

On Gotham I'm actually interested in every single character despite knowing their future. And I really love the kid actors and Alfred. Their fantastic to watch.

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statsgirl

statsgirl

To be fair, Ray seemed a lot more enthralled and into Cisco. 

And I was a lot more enthralled with Ray/Cisco than I have been with Ray/Felicity,

 

That Ray just stood there and accepted all the praise for his suit without crediting Felicity's contribution still bugs me.

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SonofaBiscuit

SonofaBiscuit

I saw a comment that was irritated about all of the crossovers and not happy that The Flash was being used to support Arrow/New Spinoff show.  Haha, I laugh because you know that The Flash exists because of Arrow, right?  And sorry Flash fans, but we've spent an entire fucking season supporting this upcoming spinoff with Ray Palmer firmly attached to Felicity Smoak's ass, so it's your turn now!

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wonderwall

wonderwall

"Christmas tree indeed:"

Felicity looks at least 35 in that gif. Terrible hair and makeup.

I take solace I'm the fact that felicity looks least like herself whenever she's on a date with Ray. The blue outfit with the terrible hair and this lol

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Delphi

Delphi

I saw a comment that was irritated about all of the crossovers and not happy that The Flash was being used to support Arrow/New Spinoff show. Haha, I laugh because you know that The Flash exists because of Arrow, right? And sorry Flash fans, but we've spent an entire fucking season supporting this upcoming spinoff with Ray Palmer firmly attached to Felicity Smoak's ass, so it's your turn now!

To support Arrow characters? I guess Arrow doesn't get a thank you for making the Flash possible in the first place or their part in creating Caitlin, Barry and Cisco? Okay then. I guess I'll thank the Flash for sucking all the light out of Arrow in order to make their show happy and more accessible.

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FurryFury

FurryFury

I don't mind crossovers, in fact I welcome them, they help me get my Felicity fix without having to suffer through Laurel or Roy or, really, Oliver whom I've never forgiven for lying to Thea and being all holier than thou towards Moira.

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Ang

Ang

(edited)

"Christmas tree indeed:"

Felicity looks at least 35 in that gif. Terrible hair and makeup.

I assume they're trying to mitigate some of the age difference between EBR and BR, but she just looked like she was playing dress-up. I mean, she was easily young enough to be cast as a highschool freshman on a different show when she started on Arrow.

I liked Ray more than on Arrow, but not as much as I hoped I would. Felicity seemed weirdly subdued at times, given the oh-so-Felicity

lines they were giving her, and I wondered if any of that was intentional to play up the aforementioned "Christmas tree" effect.

I really wish they'd start writing Iris as an actual character instead of a plot device.

ETA:

How does Felicity - or anyone on Team Arrow - even know the "Black Canary" name? Quentin said it once to Laurel at Sara's gravesite rather sarcastically. Did Laurel then tell everyone on Team Arrow that she wanted to be called that as her code name in the field from now on, or did I miss a scene somewhere?

This x1000. It makes no sense whatsoever. Edited by Ang
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tv echo

tv echo

How does Felicity - or anyone on Team Arrow - even know the "Black Canary" name?  Quentin said it once to Laurel at Sara's gravesite rather sarcastically.  Did Laurel then tell everyone on Team Arrow that she wanted to be called that as her code name in the field from now on, or did I miss a scene somewhere?

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tennisgurl

tennisgurl

(edited)

Yeah, I like cross overs alright, and I thought it was a pretty decent episode, but the constant "Ray Ray RAY" stuff is just getting old. We get it, you guys think he`s awesome! Just give him his own stupid show and move on!

 

I laughed my head off when Ray was saying how they met because he bought the company Felicity worked for, and made her work for him, and she was all "Its not as creepy as it sounds"! Yes. Yes it is as creepy as it sounds. 

 

Although I will say, Ray has a million times more chemistry with Cisco then I have ever seen him have with anyone on Arrow. On this show, he just feels so awkward, like he dosent really belong in this universe. At least I could see him more in the more fun, quirky Flash world. 

Edited by tennisgurl
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FurryFury

FurryFury

(edited)
Yeah, I like cross overs alright, and I thought it was a pretty decent episode, but the constant "Ray Ray RAY" stuff is just getting old. We get it, you guys think he`s awesome! Just give him his own stupid show and move on!

 

TBH, I think your opinion might have been colored by Arrow. For a viewer of The Flash, Ray really didn't have that much of a role, and he wasn't as propped as some may think. He was just... there. He did look like a budget Iron Man, abilities-wise, though.

 

I laughed my head off when Ray was saying how they met because he bought the company Felicity worked for, and made her work for him, and she was all "Its not as creepy as it sounds"! Yes. Yes it is as creepy as it sounds.

 

This was an intentional lampshade hanging, the episode was full of it (also with Iris).

Edited by FurryFury
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Genki

Genki

I found it strange that everyone was so impressed with Ray and the suit, when they have already have a guy(s) who flies while on fire!!

 

Tonally Ray fits in better with The Flash, but if he actually shrank and it would be impressive and something new for Star labs IMO.

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KirkB

KirkB

(edited)
What does "lampshading" or "lampshade hanging" mean? I'm familiar with "gaslighting" (shut up - I'm old), but this seems different?

 

 

 

Here you go (don't feel bad, I had to look it up too)

 

Lampshade

 

A word used for situations in media- mostly in comics and television- where the concerns, criticisms and arguments of the audience are answered in the text itself to assuage any disbelief and therefore frustration a reader or viewer might possess. By underscoring points of possible contention, usually humorously, the suspension of disbelief is retained.

Often used to account for implausible developments, ridiculous motivations, bizarre twists and illogical situations, a lampshade can also cover obviously cribbed plot elements by having the author acknowledge through a character that "This is just like..."

A lampshade can be used to explain threads that may have lain dormant, and often prods at the fourth wall by having characters address the audience, or realities outside their own existence.

Edited by KirkB
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Sakura12

Sakura12

TBH, I think your opinion might have been colored by Arrow. For a viewer of The Flash, Ray really didn't have that much of a role, and he wasn't as propped as some may think. He was just... there. He did look like a budget Iron Man, abilities-wise, though.

 

I agree, to me it didn't seem like Ray did much. He was just there. Felicity had a bigger role on the crossover. Ray didn't make much of an impression on me. I think it was smart to make him part of team rather then giving him his own show. He also didn't make much of a difference in The Flash's ratings. 

 

Since they are pre-empting next weeks Laurel ep in Chicago, I might skip that one and read about what happened. I stopped watching Arrow so I didn't have to see Laurel. 

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statsgirl

statsgirl

But Ray made the suit by himself!  He's brilliant!  Ronnie just got affected by the explosion.

 

Although that would argue that Bree is brilliant too but I guess they can't be impressed by the villains.

What does "lampshading" or "lampshade hanging" mean? I'm familiar with "gaslighting" (shut up - I'm old), but this seems different?

Hey!  We still use gaslighting, even in non-TV life.

 

The first time I ever heard the term "lampshade it" was on Stargate SG:1's 200, an episode that still never fails to make me smile.

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FurryFury

FurryFury

What does "lampshading" or "lampshade hanging" mean? I'm familiar with "gaslighting" (shut up - I'm old), but this seems different?

 

I would also add this.

 

Since they are pre-empting next weeks Laurel ep in Chicago, I might skip that one and read about what happened. I stopped watching Arrow so I didn't have to see Laurel.

 

I don't watch live (not that I could) but I agree, I may also skip it, really not looking forward to seeing Laurel, that "Fight club" promo was cringeworthy enough. I'm also not impressed with what Flash has done with Wells, such a waste of a cool concept and Tom Cavanaugh's acting.

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FurryFury

FurryFury

(edited)
I like what they did with Wells. Wells isn't evil, he isn't even Harrison Wells. He's Eddie's descendant from the future.

 

It's so boring, making him a 100% villain with a selfish motivation. I really hoped he'd be an anti-hero or something. My dream idea used to be that he had to come to the past to prevent a bad future by killing Barry Allen who was going to become a major villain. That would have been so cool and would add so much to Barry's character.

Edited by FurryFury
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Sakura12

Sakura12

I don't see him as 100% villain. He's been helping Barry and saving the city. He even said he didn't mean to kill Barry's mom, that was an accident. He kills people that can screw up his plan or people that find out his secret. He's pretty much a guy that just wants to go back to his own time. I don't consider that a straight up mustache twirling villain. 

 

We still don't really know why him and future Barry were fighting about. Especially if killing Barry's mom wasn't the plan. 

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FurryFury

FurryFury

I don't see him as 100% villain. He's been helping Barry and saving the city.

 

Well, so far, we're supposed to think the reason for this is he needs Barry to break the time barrier, and saving the city is just a way to get close to him.

 

He even said he didn't mean to kill Barry's mom, that was an accident.

 

Not sure if it matters to the show.

 

He kills people that can screw up his plan or people that find out his secret. He's pretty much a guy that just wants to go back to his own time. I don't consider that a straight up mustache twirling villain.

 

I think the show does. I mean, I watch 12 Monkeys, so the idea of a guy who considers the people in the time he's currently in already dead isn't anything new to me, but everyone thinks Wells is SO EVIL that I have a feeling the show considers him unforgivable. Although Arrow is trying to say Malcolm Merlyn's actions in s1 are no big deal, so who knows with these writers.

 

We still don't really know why him and future Barry were fighting about. Especially if killing Barry's mom wasn't the plan.

 

Well, this is my last hope, that Wells had a really good reason to go back to kill Barry.

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tennisgurl

tennisgurl

 

This was an intentional lampshade hanging, the episode was full of it (also with Iris).

Yeah, I get what they were going for, and normally I like a good lampshade hanging, but sometimes it can be annoying. This just shows that they know Ray comes off as creepy, and the characters know it sounds creepy, they just don't care, and keep pushing Ray on us.

 

I don't think Ray is that creepy anymore( I think he`s more smug and arrogant), but instead of having Ray apologize for his creepy behavior, they just try to laugh about it. Just didn't work for me. 

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Carrie Ann

Carrie Ann

(edited)

I like a lampshade when it's followed up with some remediation of the problem they're addressing. Like, okay we hear you, we kinda screwed up. If you're going to lampshade Ray's creepiness, it would have been better if Felicity said, "It's not as creepy as it sounds." And then Ray said, "Actually, it kind of was, sorry about that." And she said, "Okay yeah it was super creepy but I got past it." It doesn't make it better, it doesn't erase what happened. But it forces RAY to acknowledge the wrongness of his own actions, and it allows Felicity to have feelings about those actions that are (I feel) true to her character. This, like the question on 319 about the Star Labs prison, felt almost more like a jab at fans who are disturbed by this stuff, rather than a Mea Culpa.

Edited by Carrie Ann
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BkWurm1

BkWurm1

Are they trying to lure Arya Stark fans? Whatever, the ratings of Gotham this week are ever worse than AoS in its 2nd season, and they deserve it, I don't watch it, but I'm following AV club reviews, and holy shit, it seems so bad.

 

Honestly, I think Gotham is great: it gets in your head.  You can feel the weight of consequences just hanging over the actor's heads, ready to avalanche down at anytime..  It's a very different show than Arrow or Flash but I enjoy every piece and character in it and I really didn't expect to. 

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