S07.E10: The Eighth Witch

[Camera One]

A&E were being insultingly meta again with Regina's "I'm not here to discuss timelines".

Henry grows from teenager to full-grown man who looks 30 years old, and "I need your help, Mom's!", but everyone else looks exactly the same.  Several years later, "Here's my baby everyone!" and everyone looks exactly the same.  Eight years later, "Happy birthday, Lucy!" and everyone looks exactly the same.  Two years later, "You shall be Cursed!", but everyone looks exactly the same.  Meanwhile, in another unknown realm, 25 years later, and Zelena also looks exactly the same even though time "didn't [go fast] for her".  Years later, everyone is in Hyperion Heights and they still all look the same.  

Edited December 16, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

14 minutes ago, Camera One said:

A&E were being insultingly meta again with Regina's "I'm not here to discuss timelines".

Henry grows from teenager to full-grown man who looks 30 years old, and "I need your help, Mom's!", but everyone else looks exactly the same.  Several years later, "Here's my baby everyone!" and everyone looks exactly the same.  Eight years later, "Happy birthday, Lucy!" and everyone looks exactly the same.  Two years later, "You shall be Cursed!", but everyone looks exactly the same.  Meanwhile, in another unknown realm, 25 years later, and Zelena also looks exactly the same even though time "didn't [go fast] for her".  Years later, everyone is in Hyperion Heights and they still all look the same.  

This show is a farce. They're not even bothering to explain anything even half-ass. So for 10 or more years, Henry never bothered to see or communicate with his other mother? Take Lucy to Storybrooke? Why were they all staying in the Disenchanted Forest? Why not go somewhere else? And why do WHook and Alice look the same even after 10 years? Did they even meet in the intervening time? I still haven't seen the episode. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Rumsy4 said:

 I still haven't seen the episode. 

@Rumsy4 You had one job.  One job.  I'm going to go Christmas shopping now. I expect you to have watched this and explained this thing to me before I get back.  If I have to watch this again when I get home...  Well, I'm going to find Santa and have him put you on the naughty list.

[Lady Calypso]

25 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

This show is a farce. They're not even bothering to explain anything even half-ass. So for 10 or more years, Henry never bothered to see or communicate with his other mother? Take Lucy to Storybrooke? Why were they all staying in the Disenchanted Forest? Why not go somewhere else? And why do WHook and Alice look the same even after 10 years? Did they even meet in the intervening time? I still haven't seen the episode. 

Yep. Nothing is explained. 

Also what wasn't explained? WHY RUMPLE WAS SUDDENLY HIS IMP SELF? Like....why? I know that'll be a plotline for a future episode, but....going from Rumple coming to the Disenchanted Forest after Belle's death to him being his imp self with no explanation was dumb as hell. What? Did they really want Robert Carlyle to don his imp costume and makeup again? 

Also, why was Alice playing ring around the rosie with Whook around that tree? They can't touch, but they can look at each other. Seriously. 

[Shanna Marie]

I was so confused by this episode when I watched it, but I just thought it was because it was late at night after I'd sung in a concert and I was that weird combo of tired and wired you get from performing. But it sounds like everyone was as confused as I was.

None of the character motivations make sense. Everything is happening because the writers want it to happen, not because it makes any sense for the characters. The Dark Curse was always a stupid way of getting revenge, but it kind of worked with Regina because Rumple was the one who wanted the curse cast for other reasons, and he conned Regina into thinking it would give her the happy ending she wanted. It made a bit more sense early in season one, when they seemed to be going with the idea that it was impossible for villains to win in the fairytale world, so they had to go to a place where villains could win, but that got dropped along the way. We'd also seen Regina spend years trying to get revenge on Snow. She'd sent assassins, planned to kill Charming, used the sleeping curse, fought a war. The Dark Curse was a last-gasp desperation move when nothing else had worked. With Drizella, it's totally lame. For one thing, it's just so over the top. She got her feelings hurt as a child. Yeah, her mother was terrible and is a strong contender for the Darth Vader Parent of the Year Award, but cursing a whole civilization (or 20 or so people)? And what does she get out of the curse that she couldn't have had without it? During all the time she was trying to set it up, she couldn't have found a way to hurt her mother? It looks like Lady Tremaine had even bonded with Ella, Regina, and the others in order to fight Drizella, so she seems to have allowed her mother to have a truce and stopped the resistance movement. Fighting with the resistance movement and bringing her mother down, then torching Anastasia's coffin would have been more effective at hurting Lady Tremaine than this.

Then there's Gothel's involvement. It seems like Gothel was the one pushing for the curse (a la season one Rumple), but it was Regina who told Drizella about the curse and gave her the idea. How was that part of Gothel's plan? Or did she learn about that and figure she could work with it? What does she get out of this that she couldn't have had where they were? She had the seven witches already. Now it seems like she's going to have to find them.

Did they really think a bunch of cloaks on mannequins was a cliffhanger that would have viewers eager for the spring season?

Also, the poison thing -- was it a magical poison that wouldn't work in the world without magic, and that's why they had to cast the curse? The "curse breaking" has always been shown to just stop the memory issue, not undo the actual curse, so I don't see why breaking the curse would kill Henry. Or is it like Hook being a Dark One, and it only has an effect if he remembers it? They've always bungled what the idea of breaking the curse was. The Dark Curse was the transportation spell that created Storybrooke. The memory spell was a bonus add-on that didn't have to be there, and the only thing that's ever been broken was the memory part. It took reversing the curse to undo Storybrooke and send them back home, and that wasn't a TLK.

Gee, sucks for the Charmings that Regina apparently has a free pass to cast Dark Curses after killing her father and they actually didn't need to crush another heart.

These writers need to get a dictionary. Announcing your plans to do something doesn't count as a "prophecy."

So, WHook and Rumple actually get along to the point that they send WHook to get help from Rumple and Rumple willingly gives him a magical device to keep him from being separated from his daughter? Isn't this something we should maybe have seen developing? Or at least have seen their initial meeting to see how things were going with them, considering that we've only seen Hook and Rumple as enemies all this time?

I'm not even going to think about the timeline because it would make my head explode, but I feel like we should have learned a little more about where Zelena's been and how she got her magic back, considering the last time we saw her, she had no magic and was living in Storybrooke. She apparently spent some time in another realm if Robin is 25 (but Zelena hasn't aged a bit?), but was she still in that realm or nearby? She must have been around at least within the past few years so that Robin and Alice could meet and get together, but then Regina had to ask Robin's age. If Regina could travel to another realm to meet up with Zelena, couldn't they all have just gone there to live and been out of range of the curse, which was focused on Lady Tremaine? No one could create a Coradome?

[Mabinogia]

13 hours ago, Senna said:

Anyway, this episode felt really messy and disjointed.  I'm a little bit curious about Anastasia, and Alice & Robin, but other than that, I kind of welcome a break.

I have never been so happy for a show to go on winter break. lol I do agree about Ana, Alice and Robin. I like the three of them. Liked Ivy too, but not interested in her in a well with Victoria. Hopefully that won't last long. The rest, do not care. 

11 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

Then Gothel revealed the menacing coat hanger and that was really anticlimactic.

Best laugh I've had in a long time. Ooooh, it's an evil coat hanger! Fear the coat hanger!!!!!

I came here looking for answers. Now I'm more confused than ever. LOL 

Do we even know what Gothel wants? Oh, wait, she must have a daughter out there somewhere, that she chose magic over, and now she will stop at anything to get to her daughter who is in a world without magic, so she cons some girl with an asshole for a mother to cast a curse for her...wait, that sounds o familiar. This is like a remake of season 1, a really bad remake. Only difference is Regina trapped everyone in Storybrooke, while Ivy lets them roam our world all willy nilly. 

There were a few moments that had me roll my eyes. Zelina's intro, where they had her head down, hair covering her face as if it's going to be this huge, shocking reveal when she lifts her head and OMG it's Zelina!!!! Didn't see that coming!!!! Other than them telegraphing it everywhere. Another was Robin's intro where, again, they tried to hide who it was when it was so painfully obvious who she was. And Alice and Robin being a couple, avoiding using each others names so we'd be so surprised when they kissed. Whatever show. Stop trying to be surprising. It just makes you look stupid.

[Souris]

12 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

Then Gothel revealed the menacing coat hanger and that was really anticlimactic.

Is Gothel also Joan Crawford? I guess she is rather a Mommy Dearest.

[CCTC]

19 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

The "curse breaking" has always been shown to just stop the memory issue, not undo the actual curse, so I don't see why breaking the curse would kill Henry.

I was thinking, wouldn't that have meant David would have died from the fatal sword wound he got sacrificing his life to save Emma?   

[Souris]

9 minutes ago, CCTC said:

I was thinking, wouldn't that have meant David would have died from the fatal sword wound he got sacrificing his life to save Emma?   

Well, that was the original plan until Channing Dunghy told A&E that was too dark and robbed Snow of her happy ending from the get-go. A&E probably didn't want to change that part of their "vision" after deciding it wasn't fatal after all.

Of course, it has nothing to do with anything happening now, because nothing ever does.

[Camera One]

18 minutes ago, CCTC said:

I was thinking, wouldn't that have meant David would have died from the fatal sword wound he got sacrificing his life to save Emma?   

They might be able to explain that away as a physical injury rather than a magical one.

At the very least, based on what we've seen in the past, Henry should have been in a coma in Hyperion Heights.

Or they could have done what everyone loves to do when someone is on the brink of death... drag the body to the Land of Untold Stories!

Edited December 16, 2017 by Camera One

[StaceyNotStacie]

Outside of the witches, this wasn’t bad. I liked seeing Zelena and I liked how they explained the origin of the curse. I’m invested in Henry, Lucy, Regina and their crew (even nuHook and Alice to an extent), but this witch stuff is just too over the top for me. 

I’m hoping we get to meet Zelena’s fiance. 

[Shanna Marie]

13 hours ago, Kktjones said:

I haven't watched tonight's episode, but from what I gather, the gang has now been in EF2 and part of the resistance for something like 8 years. So it's been 8 years and Hook is still wearing THE EXACT SAME CLOTHES?? Someone please tell me this isn't true. I mean come on! Really?

The poor guy's been wearing the same outfit for at least 150 years. I hope he has a closet full of identical clothes or knows a tailor he can go to and say, "Make me another just like the last one, probably better update the measurements" because otherwise, it's really hard to clean leather, and after all that time it's got to smell interesting, even if he does occasionally change his shirt and vest.

And he's the only character they're like that with. Everyone else has clothes, and Hook has that one pirate outfit that he's been wearing since apparently soon after he turned pirate. He was wearing the same thing when he met Milah, the same thing when they ran into Rumple, the same thing when he was in Neverland, the same thing on all his cake runs. We don't know when WHook ditched it temporarily, since Old Hook wasn't wearing it, but when he got his young body back, he went for the same outfit. Do they really think we won't recognize Captain Hook without that outfit? The hook isn't a big enough clue? Cinderella gets to wear other things besides the blue princess dress, and she doesn't have any iconic accessory (and hasn't been on the show for years). WHook doesn't even have the saucy pirate personality. He's so sweet and earnest. He's such a dad. This guy is more cardigans than long leather coat. And poor Rogers is the same way, that same outfit, every day. He doesn't even get to vary the color of his t-shirt. I don't understand this.

I did find myself thinking during this episode that I really hope Colin's agent is putting out feelers to see if there might be interest in him for other roles before any decisions about cancellation or renewal or contract renewal come up. People talk like his only option is uncertainty or being able to take care of his family with this role, but if someone knows he might be available soon and they want him, he could easily have his next role lined up before his contract expires. It would be a shame for him to not get a chance to capitalize on the fame he got from this role before he goes down with this sinking ship. I'd love to see him get to do something else that actually uses him and lets him change clothes every so often.

[Camera One]

I never bothered to properly put down my thoughts last night since this episode was such a convoluted mess.  Most of the major issues have already been well articulated by everyone.

This show loves to fast-forward, and then go back to fill in the blanks, but it really doesn't work if none of the big changes are believable.  By fast-forwarding to Lucy being 10, we jumped over a huge amount of development that we needed to see first, in order to actually feel for the characters.  The list is huge and unmanageable so I'll start with the smaller things.

- Rumple "gave up" some unknown thing for Alice, so she feels the need to stick around him.  Why?  Because the now Suddenly Sparkly Rumple needs the support?  When I don't buy something, it takes me out of the episode completely
- Alice tells Hook that she knows how he feels about her.  Well, we certainly don't.  How often do they even see each other?  They're working off of the actors' chemistry and basically nothing else.  As mentioned above, can't they sit near each other and talk?  The whole walking around the tree thing was so distracting.
- Alice and Robyn - basically another insta-couple.  It helps the actresses have good chemistry but once again, they put two people together and TELL us they have a ultra strong bond and expect us to nod and feel for them?  They lucked out with the actress but Robyn was basically Dorothy with arrows.  Who shoots arrows at people waiting at a gate assuming they're intruders?  Clearly, no one would want to deliver mail in that realm.
- Zelena and the Farm... cute slogan but that's all it was.  Why are they there, where are they, how did Alice meet Robyn, how does Robyn have a relationship with Aunt Regina... the questions go on and on.
- Zelena and Regina, suddenly perfect sisters with a supportive relationship?  The actress who played Zelena was talking in an interview about how she loves how the show portrays women who have each other's backs and an example is Zelena and Regina.  Since when?  This episode?  
- Lady Tremaine working on the side of the heroes.  Riiiight.
- Drizella's entire dumb scheme to enact the Dark Curse.  Are we supposed to believe that Drizella doesn't know what Gothel did to Rapunzel?  If she does know, it's another case of someone blaming the wrong person and then trusting the perpetrator of all their ills, just because.
- Henry and Jacinda already together, with a baby.  I know most people don't want to stomach their love story but again, it took me out of the story
- The whole nebulous Coven of Witches before we saw Gothel's backstory or even her motivations.  I find it difficult to take a villain seriously when we have no idea what her deal is.
- Tiana is already Queen.  Okay, I'll have to admit I couldn't care less about this one and it's basically irrelevant, even though I like Tiana.

As I mentioned in a previous post. the whole Drizella declaring that "prophesy" was poorly written, paced and acted.  She wasn't intimidating at all.  And as others mentioned, they never explained how the blood magic thing was defeated, it just was.  Everything about this episode was like that, including the big "surprise twist" that Regina could enact the Dark Curse how ever many times she wants nonsense.  That's not a twist.  A twist is something that actually makes sense in hindsight given what we know.  This was changing the rules completely.

"Shadows, cloaks, screams like hyenas.  I got an invite to that Coven."  LOL.  The convenience plot contrivance is strong.  We're meant to assume Zelena is in some other realm where time moves differently and yet she got an invite?  Adam was defensive on Twitter on Thursday that Zelena not having magic IS addressed but uh, where?

I've already mentioned my confusion over the Last Magical Tree and the whole Tiger Lily thing.  It's like they couldn't figure out how to connect the Season 6 finale stuff to the random plots they came up with since then.  Henry: "We can go to the Land Without Magic before it hits.  Then, we find our people.  With this book, we can help them believe again."  As I said previously, they needed to explain why Henry didn't just hop on a portal to go to Seattle with Lucy because he could have.  How the hell would that book help?  Isn't that book about Emma et al?  

What these flashbacks told me most was how stupid Rumple has become.  He KNEW Gothel was behind all the evil and he totally half-assed keeping her caged and out of commission.  He and Regina could have worked together since they both knew Gothel was the biggest evil, and Ivy was her lackey.  Do their actions once they "woke" really mesh with what we saw in this episode?

I'll leave the present-day stuff for another post since this one is already long enough.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Camera One

[Miles]

I guess the writers at least tried. But this is not a cheat I'm willing to buy. The main ingredient of the curse is the crushed heart of the person you love the most. There is no "cursh once and cast as many curses as you want for life", it's a one time deal.

Also why would breaking the curse kill Henry? Seattle is still a land without magic, especially without the curse. Magic only came to Storybrook after Rumple put some stuff in the well.

I'd also like to reiterate that the wardrobe is not a portal, no matter how much the writers tried to retcon it recently. The wardrobe just protects the people inside from the curse and gets tranported to the land without magic (our realm), by the curse, like everything else. If it was a portal, Rumpel would have taken it a hundret years ago.

At least they explained Gothels motivation for the whole thing well enough this episode. So that will be interesting to see where that is going.

 

17 hours ago, cappoe said:

This show sucks so bad now. Also put this as another retcon. Apparently in order to cast the dark curse you don't need the heart of the thing you love most but to have been able to cast the curse before. So basically I mean if these writers remembered their show which they should cause this SL was when the show was good Charming shouldn't have had his heart ripped out and Snow should have never cast the curse. But you know who am I with trying to find logic in this embarrassment of a season when even the writers can't make any semblance of their timeline.

Very good point. I didn't even think of that. Why didn't Regina just cast the curse that time too, if it's a lifetime of curses for one crushed heart, all of a sudden. They could have saved themselves a lot of grief with that one.......

Edited December 16, 2017 by Miles

[Camera One]

The one thing that was somewhat positive was that the "heroes" at least tried to do some things to stop this Curse instead of sitting around waiting for it to hit them and hoping everything will turn out for the best.  This at least provided some gravitas in this episode.  Now what the hell they were trying to do and how inept they were in falling for a trap is another story, but you can't win them all.

[Rumsy4]

Okay, @ParadoxLost Are you ready? I think I got it all down. Flight 815 crashed on the Disenchanted Forest, and mysterious things started happening. Richard Alpert took a bunch of daggers to test who the next Dalai Lama was, but Anastasia turned Carrie on him. Ivyzella ended up in a well after the Sudden and Inevitable Betrayal by Ben Linus. The Smoke Monster attacked Henry in the Disenchanted Forest as it was really against deforestation. Hurley is still in the mental hospital and the Disenchanted Forest isn't real. Oh, wait. 

I think this episode was supposed to be the Season 7 finale. A&E realized that the ratings meant they wouldn't get Season 8, and decided to skip half-a season of plot and character developments and fast-track to the conslusion.  

Regina has learned nothing. It was utter selfishness to Curse an entire land just to save Henry. A sacrificial death would certainly have landed Henry a heroic spot in some book. Why can't Regina be the Snowing kind of hero, and sacrifice her child for the greater good? Why must everyone else suffer to keep her fulfilled? 

The only interesting part of the episode for me was seeing Imp!Rumple again. I think he may have sacrificed his sanity in saving Alice at some point. Otherwise I don't get why she felt she owed him something more than to be with her father. I continue to feel that Colin is playing WHook differently in the EF. He seems a bit more open and vulnerable than our Hook. There is a subtle but discernible difference. If only they'd let him change his clothes sometime.

Robyn was cute, and I did enjoy seeing Zelena again. I thought Robyn and Alice had more chemistry than Henry and Murderella the whole season. As an afterthought, maybe it was a good thing they skipped straight to Henriella having babies. More romantic scenes between the two of them would've been torture to watch.

Spoiler

If Zelena's fiance turns out to be a cursed Facilier, that will make the Mills' sisters' love and sex lives even more of a convoluted mess. 

Nice coat-hangers, MopHead. There was the inevitable rape call-back with her "always a pleasure" at WHook. 

Why HASN'T ANYONE apart from Lucy and Robyn Aged a day in 10, 15, 25 years?!!!!! 

I guess I learned one thing not mentioned in this thread: Tiana became a Queen in those 10 years. 

[Lady Calypso]

57 minutes ago, Camera One said:

- Rumple "gave up" some unknown thing for Alice, so she feels the need to stick around him.  Why?  Because he needs the support?  When I don't buy something, it takes me out of the episode completely

I agree. This Rumple/Alice thing felt jarring, especially with no build-up to it before. So...we know Alice knew about the cup from Rumple before, but that doesn't exactly scream some deep established relationship in the Disenchanted Forest. What's worse is that we also got random Imp Rumple to, I guess, shock us and wonder how he became his Imp self again, and wondering if him sacrificing his Gold side is what guilted Alice into sticking by him. Except I just really don't care because I was too confused and irritated with the random plot twist in the first place. Which, like all the other plot twists this season, will make no sense once they come to explain it.

59 minutes ago, Camera One said:

- Alice tells Hook that she knows how he feels about her.  Well, we certainly don't.  How often do they even see each other?  They're working off of the actors' chemistry and basically nothing else.  As mentioned above, can't they sit near each other and talk?  The whole walking around the tree thing was so distracting.

Again, agreed (I'll be agreeing a lot). We've seen about 5 minutes total of this relationship in the past. The present day scenes don't even count because we only found out about Whook being Alice's father last week. Maybe work on establishing that relationship more before jumping into the curse era. 

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

- Lady Tremaine working on the side of the heroes.  Riiiight.

This is the first thing from the episode that took me out of it. It made zero sense because up to this point, Tremaine was this villain and now suddenly, she's a hero helping out our heroes for some common good? Uh....what? It doesn't help that Tremaine is such a poorly developed antagonist that when she was the Big Bad, she was barely onscreen. 

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

- Henry and Jacinda already together, with a baby.  I know most people don't want to stomach their love story but again, it took me out of the story

Agreed. Honestly, when they showed Henry holding Lucy without Jacinda, I actually wondered, and hoped, if that meant Lucy had a different mother and it would be this huge twist. I mean, the end of the episode didn't have it disputed at all. I just wondered if they did it deliberately, like they've been doing all season, or if they just really didn't want to show Dania try to act her way through a labour scene. Or maybe Dania just wasn't available much for this finale. 

Also, another note. Henry/Lucy scenes didn't feel like a father/daughter relationship at all. It felt like Henry was her buddy or her mentor. But then again, Henry/Regina's relationship this season, past and present, doesn't feel like a familial relationship either. 

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

- The whole nebulous Coven of Witches before we saw Gothel's backstory or even her motivations.  I find it difficult to take a villain seriously when we have no idea what her deal is.

I won't be surprised if one of the Coven of Witches members turns out to be the next Big Bad. I mean, they've already had three in the span of 10 episodes. What's another one? Though, I do have to give credit for the Big Bads being all females thus far. It's a small thing, but usually, they'd have a male villain by now. Most shows don't go down the route of having female villains, so it's nice. What loses them points is how underdeveloped two of them are, and how stupid the third one is. 

6 minutes ago, Miles said:

Also why would breaking the curse kill Henry? Seattle is still a land without magic, especially without the curse. Magic only came to Storybrook after Rumple put some stuff in the well.

Is it, though? Is Seattle REALLY without magic? Because Anastasia seems to be using her powers pretty easily. At least with Emma being the Saviour, her magic was pretty secluded to Storybrooke, a cursed town that Regina created, so there was still magic in town but none established outside of it (from my recollection). Clearly, this whole Land Without Magic is kind of bullshit now. At least, for me. 

[KingOfHearts]

The eight year timeskip was not necessary. Lucy did not need to be Henry's biological daughter. She could have been some random girl they adopted or some entity in human form. Other than aging her up, it affected nothing. All the characters were the same, dealing with the same dilemmas, and there was no character development. (Aside from Tiana becoming queen I guess?) Even 3B, which is infamous for its lack of consequences, was more believable. More actually happened within the span of one year in that arc than in eight here.

Edited December 16, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Miles]

Just now, Lady Calypso said:

Is it, though? Is Seattle REALLY without magic? Because Anastasia seems to be using her powers pretty easily. At least with Emma being the Saviour, her magic was pretty secluded to Storybrooke, a cursed town that Regina created, so there was still magic in town but none established outside of it (from my recollection). Clearly, this whole Land Without Magic is kind of bullshit now. At least, for me. 

Well it's not killing Henry now, it certainly won't kill Henry any more without the curse. That's all I'm saying.

I agree that magic is used way too liberally. Regina only had a bit of magic in her vault during the first curse. But now Gothel seems to be able to just grow magic stuff and Anastasia can throw people through the air.

[Camera One]

Deleted scene.

HENRY and REGINA take Baby Lucy to the Mirror.

HENRY: You want to meet your grandma and your great-grandparents?  

REGINA: I've connected the Mirror to Storybrooke.  

HENRY: Hello?  Hello?  Hello?  It's Henry.  Emma?  Mary Margaret?  David?  

MEANWHILE, in STORYBROOKE

SNOWING and EMMA have just finished destroying all the Mirrors in town.

[KingOfHearts]

2 minutes ago, Camera One said:

SNOWING and EMMA have just finished destroying all the Mirrors in town.

Well it looks like I'll never be driving around Storybrooke again.

[Shanna Marie]

7 minutes ago, Miles said:

At least they explained Gothels motivation for the whole thing well enough this episode.

Could you explain it to me? Because I'm unclear other than the vague eight witches thing. What does she want to do with the eight witches, and why did she need the curse to do it? And isn't she lucky that Regina blundered into giving Drizella the idea for the Dark Curse?

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

He KNEW Gothel was behind all the evil and he totally half-assed keeping her caged and out of commission.  He and Regina could have worked together since they both knew Gothel was the biggest evil, and Ivy was her lackey.  Do their actions once they "woke" really mesh with what we saw in this episode?

And he knew his overly idealistic and earnest partner was obsessed with finding and freeing that missing "girl," so couldn't he have kept Rogers busy or distracted or tampered with things even more than he did (and in a much less clumsy way) to keep him from freeing Gothel?

I get the impression that they initially really must have planned to develop some kind of relationship between Sabine and Rogers/Tiana and WHook but changed their minds in the editing room and cut things that were written and possibly shot except where it's absolutely critical to the plot. In this case, there's her rather eager "I'll talk to Detective Rogers" as though they have some kind of ongoing friendship, just because we needed to know why he was initially so busy trying to track where Lucy had been to listen to Tilly, and possibly there was a scene between them that was cut. I think there have been a couple of other things that seemed to suggest more than we've seen, and we did see pictures of scenes being shot that were cut. Maybe that's why so much of what WHook's been up to back in the Alternate Forest has been missing -- it was scenes with Tiana that they decided against.

I guess Henry has the "family" that matters with him if his Aunt Zelena and cousin Robin are around, and his stepfather's doppelganger is around with his daughter Alice, so with Regina that's all that matters. Never mind the birth mother he went on a quest to find, or her parents whom he desperately wanted to save from the curse, or the "Alice" who's actually biologically related to him (assuming Hook Prime would also want to name a daughter for his mother).

[tennisgurl]

22 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Are you ready? I think I got it all down. Flight 815 crashed on the Disenchanted Forest, and mysterious things started happening. Richard Alpert took a bunch of daggers to test who the next Dalai Lama was, but Anastasia turned Carrie on him. Ivyzella ended up in a well after the Sudden and Inevitable Betrayal by Ben Linus. The Smoke Monster attacked Henry in the Disenchanted Forest as it was really against deforestation. Hurley is still in the mental hospital and the Disenchanted Forest isn't real. Oh, wait. 

And then it was all actually purgatory or an alternate dimension or something. It makes total sense! After a few tokes...

[Miles]

8 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Could you explain it to me? Because I'm unclear other than the vague eight witches thing. What does she want to do with the eight witches, and why did she need the curse to do it? And isn't she lucky that Regina blundered into giving Drizella the idea for the Dark Curse?

Well I mean for her to go along with Drizilla's stupid curse-plan. She needs Anastasia awake for uhm reasons and this was the best way to get that done.

And yes, she was very lucky that Regina tells every unstable teenager about dark curses. It certainly wasn't plot contrivance!

[Camera One]

Or how easy it is to enact the Dark Curse.  I'm actually going out to the grocery store to get some ingredients if anyone wants to watch the accompanying fireworks tonight.  It now works with the candied hearts you love to eat the most.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Is Guardian just this season's version of the Savior? 

[Rumsy4]

17 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Though, I do have to give credit for the Big Bads being all females thus far. It's a small thing, but usually, they'd have a male villain by now. Most shows don't go down the route of having female villains, so it's nice. 

Is it any different from the line of female villains the Show has had, though? There was Cora, Regina, Tamara, Zelena, Medusa, Ingrid, Ursula, Cruella, Mal, Dark Swan, Nimue, Tremaine 1.0, Clone Queen, Black Fairy, etc.. Not sure that actually speaks in A&E's credit except they skipped the whole "Evil Cleavage" route this time around. 

4 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

And then it was all actually purgatory or an alternate dimension or something. It makes total sense! After a few tokes...

Maybe this whole season is a Wonderland Caterpillar's fever dream. 

[Camera One]

2 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Is Guardian just this season's version of the Savior? 

No, but the difference is very subtle and you will need a very special degree in Bad Writing and Delusion to understand the difference.  I don't want to ruin the surprise but instead of a shaking hand, Guardians eventually get a shaky leg.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Camera One

[Proteus]

17 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

I haven't watched it yet. But if eight years have passed, why has NOBODY freaking AGED at all?!@!!!! Ugh. I give up. This season is a complete fever-dream. 

The only person that ages is Belle so they can kill her off.

[Lady Calypso]

6 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Is it any different from the line of female villains the Show has had, though? There was Cora, Regina, Tamara, Zelena, Medusa, Ingrid, Ursula, Cruella, Mal, Dark Swan, Nimue, Tremaine 1.0, Clone Queen, Black Fairy, etc.. Not sure that actually speaks in A&E's credit except they skipped the whole "Evil Cleavage" route this time around. 

True, this show has always done well with having female antagonists and villains. But for a season with many villains, they haven't introduced a male villain or antagonist. Season 1 had Regina but also Rumple. Season 2 had Cora and Tamara, but also Greg and Hook. Season 3 had Zelena as well as Pan. Season 4 had the Queens of Darkness and Ingrid, but it also had Rumple. Season 5 had Nimue and the Dark Emma, but then also had King Arthur, Hook, and Hades. Season 6 isn't one I saw pretty much at all; I know there was Fiona and the Evil Queen thing, but they also introduced male antagonists.  

So yeah, definitely there's still better female representation with the villains and antagonists, but there was only Facilier in one episode so far. I just think the increase in female villains is noticeable to me. Again, not that it's that important because it's not like the show hasn't had several female villains. 

[Terrafamilia]

Why didn't Rumple just skip out of the Enchanted Bayou over to some other realm instead of stick around to be caught up in the curse?

Now that Ivy has been thrown down a well I'd love to see her crawl back out all crab-like and herky-jerky with her hair undone and over her face, stalking down Gothel and dragging her down to hell. Or something like that. Unfortunately, I fear that would have to be another show.

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

There was the inevitable rape call-back with her "always a pleasure" at WHook. 

I don't even know what to say with that.  These Writers are so tone deaf.  I suppose this episode was probably? already in the bag when "Eloise Gardener" aired, but seriously?  

Edited December 16, 2017 by Camera One

[Mabinogia]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

Clearly, no one would want to deliver mail in that realm.

The most dangerous job in all the realms. Maybe the spinoff should have been Once Upon a Mailman. The story of the man whose destiny it was to deliver mail to the dangerous, unhinged citizens of the Disenchanted Forest. He was but a boy when a curse was placed upon him by some mysteriously evil person with mysteriously evil intent. Now he must risk his life to make sure the Evil Queen gets her copy of Vogue, that the Wicked Witch of the West gets the two for one Pizza Hut coupons. Will our intrepid hero finally make the one delivery that will free him from the curse, a true loves kiss from some random chick he has no chemistry or connection with? 

I miss when Rumple was actually intelligent and one step ahead of everyone. 

I miss when magic really did have a price and curses were nearly impossible to cast. 

I miss when characters actually had motivations for their actions. 

I miss it was next to impossible to travel from one realm to another. 

I miss when there were consequences. 

I miss what this show used to be. 

[Camera One]

This season's definition of bold and audacious kickass females means borderline psycho.  

[KingOfHearts]

25 minutes ago, Camera One said:

This season's definition of bold and audacious kickass females means borderline psycho.  

Merida really was a trailblazer.

Edited December 16, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[tennisgurl]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

This season's definition of bold and audacious kickass females means borderline psycho.  

Robin would have a whole line up of women to cheat on his wife with! 

[Camera One]

Onto the present-day stuff.

In the first scene, I was wondering if Jacinda and Lucy had health insurance, and if that was going to become a problem since this show is so great at showing real world issues.

Rumple must have left his brain at the Edge of Realms because it's clearly not firing on any cylinder.  "I would never have helped you if I knew Lucy would pay the price".  So Rapunzel and Drizella now have more knowledge of magic than The Dark One.  Why didn't he drive Anastasia and Victoria out of Seattle to do the dagger test?  Heck, why didn't he abuse his police privileges and put an APB or a few thugs out on Gothel and Ivy?  He had file folders but no dirt? 

If Anastasia had so much untapped power, why did she drown?  You'd think her magic would go into overdrive and crack all the ice and turned the lake into a nice hot tub or something.

I actually found myself sort of liking Anastasia.  She has the vulnerability that Lucy lacks.  

I was joking a few days ago that Cursed Zelena persona would last 5 minutes and it really did.  As usual, they had a ton of interviews on how different Kelly was, but that's a total moot point.  Roni told Kelly's daughter that only losers get an education?  They're really pulling stuff out of nowhere, aren't they.  At first, Zelena was aghast she teaches a spin class and is a hippie, but then she's all "I'm in love and I was happy"?  Is she under some weird Hyde and Jekyll multiple personality version of Cursed persona?  They even had her say "I am both" for our benefit.

In the second half of the season, will Rogers be investigating that bad case of graffiti?  I'm pretty sure you don't need a street informant to tell you about graffiti.  The fact that it was being cleaned up meant it was probably reported and logged.  

"We have to save our families, our people, no matter what it means for us personally."  Who needs Snow when ANYONE can say that.  Why isn't Zelena freaking out that her daughter is still missing?

Lucy is in the hospital but Nick is MIA?  So now that Lucy is deathly ill, I guess Henry can't get mad that Jacinda kissed Nick, eh?  Henry's sudden "I'll do ANYTHING" attachment to Lucy at her bedside was almost laughable.  I hope someone is out there operating the Rolling Bayou... snacks that might give you West Nile.

I forgot in the flashback, I did find it sweet that Whook gave Cinderella the White Elephant.  Which should really be the mascot for this show.

When Gothel was holding that candle, I was expecting her hair to go up in flames at any moment.

So now Drizella thinks Anastasia has "taken everything" from her?  She's becoming more and more like Regina.  I'm sorry to say this but although I was impressed with the actress, I'm pretty much done with Ivy after seeing this episode.  She and Mommy dearest can stay at the bottom of the well until their "A Wondrous Place" for all I care.  

Edited December 17, 2017 by Camera One

[Mabinogia]

11 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Henry's sudden "I'll do ANYTHING" attachment to Lucy at her bedside was almost laughable.

I was laughing when he abandoned the hunt for...whatever it was he thought he and Roni were hunting for, to run back to Lucy's side as if she was anything to him. She's the daughter of a woman he has talked to. Have they gone on a date? I don't pay much attention when she's on the screen because I like my ears and can't subject them to that voice any longer than I have to. Why wouldn't Jacinda call, oh, I don't know, Lucy's father (well, the man she thinks is her father). I have never seen a show try to push a couple without actually investing in them as a couple. I almost feel, well, if I though the writers of this show had a shred of creativity or originality, that they are making some kind of statement about how sometimes fate/destiny/whatever isn't right and even though the book says Henry and Jacinda live happily ever after, they don't. They barely even like each other and are just doing what fate is compelling them to do. But this show isn't remotely that interesting or clever. 

[Camera One]

How well does being an Uber driver pay?  A last-minute plane ticket from San Francisco and Seattle isn't pocket change.

And why would Regina encourage him to go?  For all she knows, they could TLK and the Curse would break and he would die.  I mean, her goal is to find some third way to save them both, right?  

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

I forgot in the flashback, I did find it sweet that Whook gave Cinderella the White Elephant.  Which should really be the mascot for this show.

I thought it was too at first, then I realized he gave it to Murderella. Yeah, sorry - WHook and his daughter can't be together in HH. We've got Jacinda signing over custody to Victoria, day drinking, and sacrificing financial support for her daughter over pride to be had instead. 

Edited December 17, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Lady Calypso]

2 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

Why wouldn't Jacinda call, oh, I don't know, Lucy's father (well, the man she thinks is her father).

It's even more hilarious when you realize that the showrunners can't use the excuse of the actor not being available. 

[Shanna Marie]

48 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I thought it was too at first, then I realized he gave it to Murderella. Yeah, sorry - WHook and his daughter can't be together in HH. We've got Jacinda signing over custody to Victoria, day drinking, and sacrificing financial support for her daughter over pride to be had instead. 

It was sweet on WHook's part. Too bad Murderella squandered his sacrifice. She and her daughter were allowed to still be mother and daughter and remember each other, and she screwed it up.

I remember when we thought at the beginning of the season that WHook would allow Hook to get back a little sass and sauce, but he's such an earnest, endearing sweetheart. He makes Hook Prime, even the current hero version, look edgy and naughty.

[Rumsy4]

11 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

he's such an earnest, endearing sweetheart

He is, isn't he? I want to hug him and pat him on the head, saying, "There, there". 

[Shanna Marie]

21 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

34 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

he's such an earnest, endearing sweetheart

He is, isn't he? I want to hug him and pat him on the head, saying, "There, there". 

Which is why the pirate outfit just doesn't work on him. He should be dressed like Mr. Rogers, or the fairytale land equivalent. Sweaters, not a long leather coat. I'd imagine he'd have given up the pirate garb while bringing up baby Alice. That 50-pound coat would become a real burden when climbing a tower with jugs of milk and bundles of diapers, and it would be difficult getting spit-up off the leather. He'd also want something cozy for snuggling his daughter. Yeah, he can't snuggle her now, but you'd think he'd have lost all that stuff years ago and wouldn't be wearing it again now. It would actually have been kind of fun to see young-again WHook wearing Old Hook's clothes, only cleaned and taken care of now.

Hey, maybe he didn't age in the past decade or so because Lady Tremaine's spell didn't just revert him to being that age, resetting the clock, but actually permanently changed his appearance so he'll always look that age (given the show's ratings, they probably won't have to worry about Colin showing any age beyond that).

[VoicePlaya]

9 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Robin would have a whole line up of women to cheat on his wife with! 

This made me laugh out loud. What a group to pick from!

7 hours ago, Camera One said:

When Gothel was holding that candle, I was expecting her hair to go up in flames at any moment.

That would've been way more entertaining than what actually happened, to be honest.

I just watched this episode a few hours ago and my first thought when it ended was along the lines of WTF was that? The next was that I feel like this episode gave me a good idea of what being on drugs must be like. I'm seriously starting to question what goes on in the writing room.

I usually go over and watch with my mom, but something she had plans when I watched. Now she wants me to watch it again with her. It'll be interesting to see if it makes more sense watching it a second time. On the other hand, I feel like I'd rather set my own hair on fire than watch this episode again. This was such a convoluted episode in an already convoluted season. The show has gotten so hard to follow and if it was interesting, it might be fun to figure out. Instead I'm left making statements like I'd rather set myself on fire. 

I know it's been mentioned by a few people how the reveals tend to ruin things. I completely agree. The biggest examples of this are Ivy and Gothel. Again, as has been said by others, Ivy was so much more interesting before she was revealed to be evil. Now I'm finding myself tuning out during her scenes and she was one of the few characters that could actually keep my attention. Plus I think Adelaide is easily among the best of the new cast, though that's not saying much. That said, I didn't care for her performance this episode. 

Then there's Mophead. I liked her better before we knew who she was. I found her intriguing. And then we find out who she is and that of course came with the terrible rape by deception plot. Ever since that episode, I find her completely unbearable. In fairness, I've seen enough things from the actress to make me find her obnoxious so that may be coloring my opinion of Mophead. I can't stand her and her coat hangers of doom. I just can't take her seriously. The performance feels more like something you'd see from a high schooler. Apologies to all of the talented high schoolers out there. I know we're supposed to hate her, but I hate her in the way that makes me want to change the channel every time she's on. I just want her to go away. 

When WHook grabbed her, I kept hoping he'd just stab her in the throat and that'd be it. Man, this show is making me violent. I knew there was 0 chance of that happening and if he had, it of course wouldn't have actually killed her. But it would have been so satisfying. Instead we get her disgusting "always a pleasure" and a look that I guess was meant to be flirtatious/seductive. Instead it reminded me of that look that babies get when they pass gas. Apologies to all babies everywhere for comparing them to her. Seriously though, that's what it made me think about and then I was feeling bad for Colin. 

Honestly. this whole reboot has me feeling bad for Colin. He's one of the few actors who seems like they're actually trying and he's so much better than most of the others, but there's only so much he can do with what he's been given. I'm getting increasingly annoyed with them constantly putting him in the same outfit. Give the man some new clothes already. And like @Shanna Marie pointed out, it doesn't work with the character. It looks more out of place the more we see it.

The conversation between Alice and WHook around the tree was annoying. I'm happy that they know how the other feels, but it'd be nice to let the audience in on that. I'm sure it's coming. They're just going to play it out in the most tedious way possible. Unfortunately, after this episode, I don't know that I care anymore. It's somehow been dragged out and rushed at the same time and this was the one storyline I was sort of emotionally invested in. 

Alice and Robyn have way more chemistry than Henriella, but who doesn't? Unfortunately, they're trying to play it off as an epic romance but it's hard to buy it when this is the first time we're seeing them. And not saying their names to make the kiss all the more shocking was stupid. Especially considering that we already knew it was coming. I find myself impatiently tapping my fingers while waiting for them to just get on with it already. 

[thuganomics85]

So, basically it was Regina who created the Dark Curse (again), because Drizella and Gothel kidnapped Henry and poisoned him, and the only way to save him is go take him to place with no magic.  Sucks for everyone else that had to go down with them, but I'll give this show this amount of credit that it is in character for Regina (and everyone else) to still do that for their child.

Other then that, this episode was a big old mess, outside of Zelena returning and at least being fun, even though it is ridiculous thinking about everything they're just pretending never happened with her (then again, that goes double with Regina...)  At this point, they're just playing musical chairs with who the main baddie is.  First it was Tremaine, but then it became Drizella, and now it's Gothel, who tricked Drizella into giving her powers to Anastasia, because is trying to create some kind of coven of witches or some shit.  It's not like I'm against shaking things up or busting out twists, but all of this feels like it hasn't been planned out, and they're just pulling things out of their asses.  Really won't be surprised if suddenly Gothel ends up not being truly responsible for this either, and knowing this show, it could be anyone from the Disney vault.  Right now, I'm putting bets on the final baddie being either Moana, Mowgli from The Jungle Book, or Pete's Dragon.  Outside bets, I know, but if I'm right, I will be so rich!

Then again, the heroes in this story don't just defeat one of their foes by turning them into a statue, but then apparently cart her off to their terrance, and basically put her up on display for all the guests to see.  That's like some comic book villainy going on there.  And they're the good guys!!

I did love that they apparently just developed Henry and Jacinda/Cinderella's original romance off screen.  It's like even these guys had to admit nothing was working there.

So, Polly Cooper from Riverdale didn't just go into "hiding", but is pretending to be Zelena's daughter.  Who goes by the name Robin.  And has a thing going with Alice.  OK, that last part is a decent idea, but considering how this show has bungled other lesbian relationships (dropping Mulan/Aurora, rushing through Ruby and Dorothy), I'm not sure I should be getting my hopes up here.

Zelena's new squeeze is so going to end up being important down the road.

Save Henry and Lucy Dies or Save Lucy and Henry Dies is the worst dilemma of all time, because I care so little for either.  Plus, no way is this show going to go through with it, so it's just a case of waiting and seeing what kind of loophole they'll come up with.

Even looking past the normal writing issues (I know, I know), the entire episode just felt off from both a directing and acting standpoint.  Only Rebecca Mader and Lana Parilla seemed to somewhat deliver, but even the usually reliable Robert Carlyle, Colin O'Donoghue, and Adelaide Kane seemed off this go around.  I guess it must be nice to have job security, but I have to think on some levels that both Robert and Colin are questioning renewing their contracts for this stinker (while Adelaide is wondering if maybe she should have held out for more offers after Reign ended.)  This is just getting sad now.

Already the winter hiatus, huh?  At this point, the thing I'm most interested in seeing is how low will the ratings be when it returns after three month gap.

[Mabinogia]

4 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Save Henry and Lucy Dies or Save Lucy and Henry Dies is the worst dilemma of all time, because I care so little for either. 

To generate some online buzz for the show they should have a vote on which one the audience wants to bite it. My vote is 100% Lucy! I'm not fond of grown Henry but he gets some residual fondness from having been a character we met on day 1. Yep, bye Lucy, bonus points if they somehow take Jacinda down with her. 

[Rumsy4]

5 hours ago, VoicePlaya said:

Alice and Robyn have way more chemistry than Henriella, but who doesn't? Unfortunately, they're trying to play it off as an epic romance but it's hard to buy it when this is the first time we're seeing them.

They didn't even get a bicycle ride. 

5 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I guess it must be nice to have job security, but I have to think on some levels that both Robert and Colin are questioning renewing their contracts for this stinker

Colin was already on contract, but somehow I think he would have stayed on even otherwise. But I really really hope he's been shopping around for some other opportunity. As for Robert, he really must love his kids a lot to stay around for this dreck for their sake. 

41 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

5 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Save Henry and Lucy Dies or Save Lucy and Henry Dies is the worst dilemma of all time, because I care so little for either. 

To generate some online buzz for the show they should have a vote on which one the audience wants to bite it. My vote is 100% Lucy! I'm not fond of grown Henry but he gets some residual fondness from having been a character we met on day 1. Yep, bye Lucy, bonus points if they somehow take Jacinda down with her. 

I think it should have been Jacinda who was poisoned by her evil step-sister, and Henry the person who cast the Curse. The writers could've come up with some loophole like the Truest Believer's blood would be enough, or made Henry write everyone into HH using his Author powers (which some of us had theorized). Then, Jacinda gets a sacrificial death to save Lucy, and we get rid of the chemistry-lacuna. 

10 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

It would actually have been kind of fun to see young-again WHook wearing Old Hook's clothes, only cleaned and taken care of now.

It most certainly would have! In fact I had been expecting that after episode 2. I don't get why they've dressed him in the Red Vest of Sex of all the Hook outfits! They should be trying to set him apart from Hook Prime, not pretending that he's the same person. They may have started out the same, but they diverged when WHook had Alice. There should be more points of connection between the buffoon we saw in the Wish World and his de-aged self. they certainly did that in episode 2, but seem to have dropped it after that. Colin is definitely trying--even his smiles are a little different. But he can only do so much when he's so unsupported by the writing and costuming. At least give him more scenes in the flash backs! Instead we get random crap that doesn't flesh-out any of the charatcers or develop the plot meaningfully. 

The scenes where Regina was trying to convince Zelena seemed poorly acted to me. Maybe it was the Roni hair-style, but Lana's facial expressions looked odd, especially the over-the-top denial of Henry being her boyfriend. Was that yet another meta comment from the writers? If so, it was a tad overt. 

Edited December 17, 2017 by Rumsy4

[TheRabbi]

I must say I laughed out loud at Regina, at the sight of 25 year old Robin 'We're not here to discuss timelines'.  This show is such a mess, yet I must say the past couple episodes have at least held my attention since the story is actually moving, however nonsensical it may be. The first half dozen episodes were legitimately painful to watch. Now it's just kind of bad. So it's improving. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

Then again, the heroes in this story don't just defeat one of their foes by turning them into a statue, but then apparently cart her off to their terrance, and basically put her up on display for all the guests to see.  That's like some comic book villainy going on there.  And they're the good guys!!

That was the strangest thing.  I got why they did it for story reasons, but practically speaking, why would you keep that statue sitting out on display? 

Quote

Colin was already on contract, but somehow I think he would have stayed on even otherwise. But I really really hope he's been shopping around for some other opportunity. As for Robert, he really must love his kids a lot to stay around for this dreck for their sake. 

In fairness, they are working actors who I presume want to continue working.  Why walk away from a show that gets you exposure and for which you probably get paid well?

Quote

Not sure that actually speaks in A&E's credit except they skipped the whole "Evil Cleavage" route this time around. 

I don't know, I get that Zelena isn't evil, but her workout outfit certainly showed off the cleavage. 

Edited December 18, 2017 by txhorns79