S08.E08: How It's Gotta Be

[KirkB]

On 1/3/2018 at 0:12 PM, rab01 said:

Here's a prediction -- they are going to show us the Savior breakout from their camp early next season as a flashback and none of us will give a shit because they don't understand the basics of story structure.*  

Flashback? No, it'll be a whole episode.

[jls1792]

Accurate recap of the episode

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSnWQPiN_Lc

[Ouisch]

On 12/18/2017 at 5:30 PM, AngelaHunter said:

I guess that's why Eugene got a jar filled with water and baby cukes, instead of actual pickles which would have cost more. Think of the budget! We know they certainly saved a bundle on whatever person they got to do the CGI dump and deer. How much could a real deer have cost?

 

 

Reminds me of an episode of The Flintstones (the original series, back when I was a kid....) - Fred won a contest and was acting in a Stony Curtis movie as his stand-in. Every time there was a dangerous scene coming up, the director would yell "Cut!" and replace Stony with Fred. Then he'd cue the action - for example, an avalanche of boulders. "You did get the fake boulders, right?" the director would ask his assistant. "Are you kidding? Do you know how much fake boulders cost?" "OK," director would shrug, "we'll use real ones." Went on like this for many scenes in all sorts of treacherous situations.  

 

I truly feel for Emily and Chandler....I've worked at a few companies where I was frequently reassured of my job security, how we were all "family" (especially when I worked unpaid overtime), etc etc, and then when the economy slumped or whatever, there was no hesitation in laying me off (a polite term of canning someone; at least they can still collect Unemployment).

 

Not only the sudden endless supply of ammo and gasoline is eye-rollingly unbelievable, but a distillery would still be stocked with booze? Let's face it, if such a small disaster as a hurricane causes folks to make booze one of their top priorities while looting (if we're gonna die, might as well die happy!), it seems like in the ZA any liquor stashes would have long ago been cleaned out. Especially ones with huge directional signs on the road.

[Gobi]

Not to mention alcohol's use as a disinfectant.

[rab01]

And also not to mention that they made having good alcohol a plot point in the SHOW just last year - when Geoffrey intended to give up a bottle of booze to ingratiate himself to the saviors but they took his whole stash

[AngelaHunter]

11 hours ago, Ouisch said:

, if such a small disaster as a hurricane causes folks to make booze one of their top priorities while looting (if we're gonna die, might as well die happy!)

We're in the middle of blizzards and arctic vortexes and for sure booze is one of MY top priorities (along with cheese, coffee and cat food) so yeah, the liquor stores wouldn't be fully stocked the way they were when Barbeque Bob was picking out his poison of choice.

[AngelaHunter]

On ‎1‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 1:30 AM, jls1792 said:

Accurate recap of the episode

That's hiliarious, and all VERY accurate.

[Smad]

Is Carl really as beloved in the fandom as everyone makes him out to be? I mean sure, the comic fans are definitely in an uproar about it. But does the general audience feel the same? Just looking at the survivor forum on here, the most discussed are Beth (though a lot of that is about EK), Daryl, Carol, Rick and Michonne. In that order. Hell both Jesse and Carl's hat have more pages than him. Is it lack of interest in the character or just that the character hasn't done anything in the last few years worthy of discussion? I mean Maggie's thread didn't even make it to page 2.

Just wondering if anyone has any feel/idea in regards to that. I have seen a lot of Carl supporters in this thread but I'm just wondering. Because I don't quite get it personally, since I never saw Carl as the be all and end all of the story. Boy was barely on screen the last few Seasons. And aside from sneaking into Negan's base and spending the day with spaghetti has done nothing worthy of discussion for the plot.

Edited January 13, 2018 by Smad

[Ohwell]

1 hour ago, Smad said:

Is Carl really as beloved in the fandom as everyone makes him out to be?

Speaking for one, not by me.  I know he's been through a lot in the ZA, but I've just never warmed up to him.

[KirkB]

Yeah, I was more bothered by what I hear they did to Chandler than what is going to happen to Carl. Everyone in the ZA is doomed anyway. I always figured the only character with story immunity is Rick. If he dies the show basically ends.

[FierceCritter]

I'm personally a huge Carl fan. I've enjoyed seeing the character grow on the show. Mature, improve on his survival skills, etc. I love that he was what gave Rick both his softness and yet his strength. 

In a lot of ways, I found him the strongest character on the show. He was just a kid when all this came down. Used to video games, mom packing lunch, etc. To go from those creature comforts to life on the run - it was interesting to me to see how he adapted, and in a lot of ways excelled. And when he had the chance to play video games again when first meeting the other teens at Alexandra? I thought Chandler was a good enough actor that it about melted my heart seeing him realize he could do that again - just be a kid playing video games.

I don't mind that he was occasionally a dumbass. In the Carl Poppa episode, he was such a jerk in so many ways. And stupid. Foolhardy. Cocksure and overconfident. He needed to have that moment of dressing down to teach him he had to be more careful, stop fucking around and grow up. And yet, he realizes he really does need his dad. I loved both sides of that coin.

I have long eaten up anything post-apocalyptic I could get my hands on. Books especially. My favorite part of them is seeing how people adapt to what's left for them, and how they have to survive without things they need being immediately at their disposal. I enjoyed Carl in particular because we were seeing those moments of how adaptable kids can be in those kinds of situations. I was looking forward to him actually end up even stronger than Rick. I easily could have kept watching if Rick kicked the bucket if Carl was still on.

I'm not a hugely critical watcher of TV and movies. If I'm entertained, I generally don't over-analyze. It's why I'm not really that frequent a poster on here. I show up once in a while to see, "Am I missing something? What the hell just happened?" or "OMG - I'm so pissed off about this happening that I just need to rant and listen to others rant." Over this situation, this is probably the most I've consistently posted on here, ever. So I can get past imperfect acting. I can get past illogical aging of a kid from elementary school to high school size in what is only a couple years storytime. I loved Carl, I loved that he was Rick's heart. I was looking forward to seeing him be Rick, but better. I never read the comics, and now that I have allowed myself to be spoiled and know what his storyline WOULD have been, I'm so pissed to be cheated out of seeing where he would go.

And some funny. I have always named my female cats after strong characters. Ripley. Xena. Isabeau. Etc. When the time comes I get a couple kittens again, the girl will most likely be Leia. And I seriously was considering Carl for the male. Because to me, he was one of the strongest male characters in my view. Shrug. I rekindled a childhood crush on Luke Skywalker. So guess maybe I'll go with a brother/sister and go the Star Wars twin route instead. :D

[ByTor]

On 1/4/2018 at 6:33 PM, KirkB said:

On 1/3/2018 at 0:12 PM, rab01 said:

Here's a prediction -- they are going to show us the Savior breakout from their camp early next season as a flashback and none of us will give a shit because they don't understand the basics of story structure.*  

Flashback? No, it'll be a whole episode.

And I have a strong feeling that it will be the entire 1st episode after the break, with zero about Carl.

[AwesomO4000]

On 1/13/2018 at 1:33 PM, Smad said:

Is Carl really as beloved in the fandom as everyone makes him out to be? I mean sure, the comic fans are definitely in an uproar about it. But does the general audience feel the same?

I don't know about the rest of fandom, but Carl was my favorite character on this show. I don't read the comics either, so my opinion is based only on his character from the show. I loved him for all of the reasons that @FierceCritter gave. And I agree that, for me, he was one of the strongest characters. I loved that if there was even a question of danger, he would kill to protect himself and his family. I loved that faced with potentially getting his hand cut off by Negan, Carl was brave and was strong for his father, letting Rick know that it was okay. I loved that Carl was fallible and learned along the way and grew into an interesting character.

It annoyed me that Carl gets the "okay, it's your show"... for all of one episode. I was looking forward to seeing or at least considering what Carl would grow into, and to what he would do as a potential leader and as a big brother. How would he get others to follow him? What would he teach his little sister about how to survive? Now Judith won't even remember her brother. How he carried her and protected her and cared for her.

I loved his relationship with Michonne... and wish there had been more of that in recent seasons. Instead we had to spend time with Negan and the the queen of the garbage people (I still don't remember her name): both characters I hate, and it annoys me that they are still going to be around while Carl is going to be dead.

For me, Carl was flawed, complex, and believable. I loved his character growth and was looking forward to seeing what he would become. And he wasn't even allowed a good death, in my opinion. We learned in this episode that his death was basically due to a stupid mistake that Carl shouldn't have even made given all of his experience killing zombies.

So yeah, I loved the character of Carl... so much so, that after he's dead... I'm done with the show. I may come here to see comments in the threads, but the show itself... I'm done. The episode Carl dies will be the last episode of this show that I watch, because for me, the show will die with him.

Edited January 18, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[Quilty]

I've always liked Carl. He was so little and cute at the start and we watched all the horrible choices he had to make. I liked seeing it through the eyes of a child . Now teen. I'll really miss him.

[rmontro]

On 1/3/2018 at 12:12 PM, rab01 said:

As for Carl's death, that was too stupid. Not that he got bit senselessly because that's part of what the show should be about.  But that he died to a threat that wasn't all that threatening.  That character would never have been surprised by walkers or been bit in a fight with so few of them at any point in the last four years. So just block the fight better for god's sake.  Also, Gimple's reason for it is infuriating and I won't quote it here because, even though it's published, it sounds like a disappointing spoiler for the next couple seasons.  

I think I'm done with the show.

Agree that Gimple's reasoning is stupid.  I'm not a huge fan of Carl, but I see his death as a complete betrayal of the premise of the show.  Other characters that I've found more interesting have come and gone, but none of their deaths have made me want to stop watching the show.  But Gimple killing off Carl, and let's face it, it's Gimple killing him, not a walker - it's just killed all enthusiasm I have had for the show.  And I was a huge fan.  I plan on still watching for now, but I'm not looking forward to it anymore, I'm no longer engaged in the show, I've disconnected.

[Persnickety1]

On 1/3/2018 at 9:12 AM, rab01 said:

This half-season kept building up unwatched on my DVR until I binged it over the holidays.  that meant I wasn't so annoyed by the fractured story telling because I didn't have to wait for resolution of the interesting bits  But, I ended up not enjoying any of it much except King Ezekiel's optimistic phase, the garbage lady saying Rick talks too much and Rick telling Negan the same thing.  In a good war movie (or TV show), you have to either focus on the powerless grunts and emphasize the tragedy, horror and confusion, or visually explain to the viewer exactly what the objectives are and give us a way to tell whether our protagonists are succeeding or failing.  This show wanted to be the latter type but never let us know how many troops each side has, how much ammo, or how many guns.  We knew that Rick's group had to take all the satellites or they might free Negan but the show never told us how many satellites there were. So, every episode had another group of heavily armed saviors of just the necessary size to pose a possibly surmountable obstacle.

Most importantly, they never showed us (1) how Eugene broke them out, (2) how they took out the snipers watching the Savior compound; (3) why Rick felt that he needed the trash people; (4) whether Rick had an actual plan for the trash people or just a stupid bluff; (5) why Rick's people had a communication system for the first part of the assault but no runners in and out of ASZ to keep Michonne in the loop; (6) why Rick and Darryl had to have a fight that wasted valuable explosives; and so many other things necessary to give us a real feeling of dread or triumph at any point in the season.  Here's a prediction -- they are going to show us the Savior breakout from their camp early next season as a flashback and none of us will give a shit because they don't understand the basics of story structure.*   

As for Carl's death, that was too stupid. Not that he got bit senselessly because that's part of what the show should be about.  But that he died to a threat that wasn't all that threatening.  That character would never have been surprised by walkers or been bit in a fight with so few of them at any point in the last four years. So just block the fight better for god's sake.  Also, Gimple's reason for it is infuriating and I won't quote it here because, even though it's published, it sounds like a disappointing spoiler for the next couple seasons.  

I think I'm done with the show.

* One more thing on structure, they showed us many scenes of the Saviors discussing tactics, options and plot choices but all of their consequential acts occurred off-screen while our "heroes" talked about feelings, philosophy, and heartbreak with their consequential acts being shown but unexplained.  That is just so fucking stupid and would have been so easily fixed

 

So much of your post rings a bell with me.  It's almost as if everything from about episode 6 (when Gimple decided to kill off Riggs) was just tossed together without any real thought to it.  Yeah, kind of like the show has been for a while now, but to a much more obvious degree.

I tend to think something went on behind the scenes about halfway through filming the first half of this season, and instead of turning right, Gimple made a hard left and took off into uncharted (and obviously not clearly thought out) territory and things just went haywire.  

I hope the second part of the season can pull it together to some degree, but I have to admit I'm not going to hold my breath.  

Normally before a SP or MSP, I'm already buzzing around planning a menu and activities around the episode, but I'm finding it a bit challenging to work up much enthusiasm for the MSP and the whole "Oh, yay, let's watch Chandler Riggs get screwed over by Gimple/AMC!!!!"   As I've said, it's not so much I object to his character being killed off, but the way in which he and his father describe it was done just leaves me disgusted.

I won't say I'll stop watching because I know I'll be ride or die to the bitter end, but I will say a lot of my enthusiasm for the show has been dampened with this turn of events.  

[rmontro]

6 hours ago, Persnickety1 said:

I'm finding it a bit challenging to work up much enthusiasm for the MSP and the whole "Oh, yay, let's watch Chandler Riggs get screwed over by Gimple/AMC!!!!"   As I've said, it's not so much I object to his character being killed off, but the way in which he and his father describe it was done just leaves me disgusted.

I've heard rumors that Carl's demise was meant as a middle finger to Robert Kirkman, who has been causing AMC some trouble, for instance the lawsuit he filed last year saying they had scammed him out of money.  Robert Kirkman has always said that The Walking Dead was Carl's story ultimately, and Gimple has now spat on that. 

For that reason, any hope that I've had that the show can regain it's previous form, and get back on the track and be the show it was meant to be, is now gone.  By killing Carl, they've betrayed the entire premise that the show was based on, has destroyed any future part that Carl was to play in these stories (see the comics), and has gone completely off the rails.  

[AngelaHunter]

On 12/31/2017 at 7:37 PM, kelslamu said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krQHQvtIr6w

I think Heisenberg beat rick here

Yeah, that "No one saw Shane coming, except for your wife" was the knockout punch.  

[Nashville]

1 hour ago, AngelaHunter said:

Yeah, that "No one saw Shane coming, except for your wife" was the knockout punch.  

Oh yeah no doubt - that'un KILLED.

[enthropyhater]

Wow, so the rumors are true...oof can't believe they thought this was a good decision. I dropped the show back when they killed off Glenn but was going to give season 8 a shot since I reasoned : well Glenn's death was in the comics so they are trying to be respectful to the original story blah blah . However, Carl's death makes absolutely no sense. So much potential for stories there now that he was almost grown up, one of my favorite scenes were the father and son team offing walkers left and right. How can they do something so detrimental to the whole premise of the show, wow...

[Timetoread]

On 1/18/2018 at 12:17 AM, AwesomO4000 said:

I don't know about the rest of fandom, but Carl was my favorite character on this show. I don't read the comics either, so my opinion is based only on his character from the show. I loved him for all of the reasons that @FierceCritter gave. And I agree that, for me, he was one of the strongest characters. I loved that if there was even a question of danger, he would kill to protect himself and his family. I loved that faced with potentially getting his hand cut off by Negan, Carl was brave and was strong for his father, letting Rick know that it was okay. I loved that Carl was fallible and learned along the way and grew into an interesting character.

It annoyed me that Carl gets the "okay, it's your show"... for all of one episode. I was looking forward to seeing or at least considering what Carl would grow into, and to what he would do as a potential leader and as a big brother. How would he get others to follow him? What would he teach his little sister about how to survive? Now Judith won't even remember her brother. How he carried her and protected her and cared for her.

I loved his relationship with Michonne... and wish there had been more of that in recent seasons. Instead we had to spend time with Negan and the the queen of the garbage people (I still don't remember her name): both characters I hate, and it annoys me that they are still going to be around while Carl is going to be dead.

For me, Carl was flawed, complex, and believable. I loved his character growth and was looking forward to seeing what he would become. And he wasn't even allowed a good death, in my opinion. We learned in this episode that his death was basically due to a stupid mistake that Carl shouldn't have even made given all of his experience killing zombies.

So yeah, I loved the character of Carl... so much so, that after he's dead... I'm done with the show. I may come here to see comments in the threads, but the show itself... I'm done. The episode Carl dies will be the last episode of this show that I watch, because for me, the show will die with him.

Carl wasn't my favorite character but he was my favorite element of the narrative.  Rick's primary motivation was his protection of his children.  What drew me to Michonne was the beautiful relationship she developed with Carl and the show has suffered from their neglect of this relationship.  The growth of Carl has made so many possible storylines - this is the character we've seen grow up in this world - we want to see what kind of MAN it turns him into.  Regardless of Kirkman's plans, I myself saw this story as Carl's story - transition of what the world used to be to what it will be.

 

This show pretty much lost me with Negan.  I hate this character so much, it is a different, not even remotely interesting show, with him in it.  We are now on our third season of this horrible character and I've had enough.  I dvr'ed the first half and caught up one weekend.  Now with Carl out - I'm all the way out.

[enthropyhater]

I'm out too, I've been for a while. After reading the comments on TWD fb page, I'm glad I didn't watch. I'm curious as to what the ratings will be after the premiere. I'm sure there will be enough viewers to avoid cancellation but curious to see if the rating do indeed drop.

[sarthaz]

Re-watching the "bonus edition" version of this, and I'm taken by just how obnoxious it is.  The pretentious editing, the driving music, the flashbacks.  It's reminding me a lot of the BSG reboot, when after a while they started to believe they were making the most important piece of art mankind had ever seen.  Look, I like the show, but come on.  It's zombies.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

12 hours ago, sarthaz said:

Re-watching the "bonus edition" version of this, and I'm taken by just how obnoxious it is.  The pretentious editing, the driving music, the flashbacks.  It's reminding me a lot of the BSG reboot, when after a while they started to believe they were making the most important piece of art mankind had ever seen.  Look, I like the show, but come on.  It's zombies.

???  Is this a real thing, or a fan-made mashup?

 

I will give the writers and AL & JDM credit for pulling off the ultimate meta!moment in this one;

Rick:  Do you ever shut the hell up?!
Negan:  Nope!

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

On 2/2/2018 at 10:37 PM, AngelaHunter said:

Yeah, that "No one saw Shane coming, except for your wife" was the knockout punch.  

Edited February 27, 2018 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[sarthaz]

8 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

???  Is this a real thing, or a fan-made mashup?

It aired before the mid-season premiere.  It was basically the exact same episode but during a commercial break they showed an extra 10 seconds of Simon scare-talking to Maggie.  Cheap gimmick to get ratings on a repeat.  I hadn't thought about the show in a couple months, so it was jarring to recall just how full-of-itself it was.

Edited February 27, 2018 by sarthaz