S13.E09: The Bad Place

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, FlickChick said:

Yes, it has changed - and it has nothing to do with the CW feed. The music is louder, more present during dialog which results in missing key conversations. Why? I haven't a clue except that we have "teen angel" on now, so we should cater to the teens' way of watching TV which is a lot of noise most of the time drowning out dialog on a regular basis. There are some shows I don't even attempt to watch without Closed Captions because the music is so loud. This was never a problem for me on Supernatural until Dabb took over completely and he has raised the volume more this year than last. :(

Hmm, I haven't noticed a change, myself. I thought it was pretty bad about mid-season 11 for a couple episodes, but I haven't noticed the music being intrusive lately.

[catrox14]

32 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It stands to reason if angels can't step over holy fire to get out, they can't step over it to get in, either. So they make a ring around themselves, same as a salt line, and buy some time for Jack to open the right rift.

Yup. Agree 100%

[catrox14]

39 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

But it was ruled out as an option by Dean, whether you accept his reasoning, or not.  And has Jack teleported yet with other people?  If he's just learned to teleport himself, he may not be ready to take along 3 passengers as of yet.  

I flat out don't accept Dean ruling it out based on numbers alone. And that was the only reason Dean gave. 

Dean faced unknown numbers of angels in s9 at the hospital. It even seemed like it was ALL of them trying to get to Dean to get to Castiel, and Dean still opted to use a sigil on those closest to him. And that was a far more frenetic situation with Sam dying and he was under direct attack, like being beaten. But hey, like I said, I guess Dean has just lost some battle moxie these days.

[MysteryGuest]

Since they've never used the holy oil as a means to protect themselves, I have no issue with them not thinking of that as an option on the fly.  And I'm willing to cut both Sam and Dean some slack about the sigils, because they did mention them and then ruled them out.  If I'm supposed to believe that they are experienced hunters, then I will have to believe that they know when sigils would work and when they wouldn't.  Yes, I know it's plot driven, but I didn't find it an outrageous plot contrivance.  If would have been worse, IMO, if they had stood around and expounded on just why their normal options wouldn't work.  They mentioned them, ruled them out, and then went on to the next option.  I personally can live with that, but I realize that others cannot.  On the scale of implausible things done on this show (i.e. Sam trying to "blow out" burning paper), this one doesn't even register for me.

Edited December 12, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Since they've never used the holy oil as a means to protect themselves, I have no issue with them not thinking of that as an option on the fly.  And I'm willing to cut both Sam and Dean some slack about the sigils, because they did mention them and then ruled them out.  If I'm supposed to believe that they are experienced hunters, then I will have to believe that they know when sigils would work and when they wouldn't.

How is "Too many of them" a reason to not try? That's what I don't understand. How do the potential numbers deter them from doing the ONE thing that they KNOW banishes angels? That's what I find so baffling. 

Edited December 12, 2017 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

Again, I think it had to do with the unknown number of angels, the effective distance of angel to sigil, having to remove the warding to allow them in, and having the sigil only work on a third of them, leaving them still vastly outnumbered by the rest of the angels.  This is at least what I got from Dean's comment that there were too many for the sigil to work, and if they let them in, they'd be killed.  It makes plausible sense to me, so I can live with it.

[AwesomO4000]

On 12/10/2017 at 11:42 PM, SueB said:

the multiverse construct makes pretty much anything plausible -- personally I'm holding out for a world without shrimp.

Or a world of nothing but shrimp?***

No, that would be horrible. ; )

*** I actually referenced this world once in one of my Buffy fanfics.

Edited December 12, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

r a world of nothing but shrimp?***

No, that would be horrible. ; )

I would literally die. LOL

[SueB]

Well you're right @catrox14 I don't agree with your 'tactical' assessment of the battle.  But I sure don't want to talk about it anymore, so I'm hoping we an just agree to disagree.  

On sound: I haven't had any issue -- I'll go back and listen closelly again.

I'm interested @AwesomO4000 on your thought's regarding Sam's reaction to Dean declaring Jack family.  His reaction seemed nuanced to me.  Not just "glad he accepts Jack" but also maybe "glad we're on the same page?" or "glad Dean accepts my judgement?".  Thoughts?

[Wayward Son]

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Cas is still locked up with Asmodeus so at this point, he doesn't even know that they found Jack or vanished :(.  And IF by chance Dean or Sam DID call Cas, then Asmodeus answered the phone and he'll likely be the person who sends his minions after them. I don't trust them with Baby either

All of which brings up a point. Shouldn't Cas' angel radio pick up on these shenanigans?? I mean that would be good to have seen a shot of Cas either hearing the angel radio and realizing they know where Cas is or at least offering an explanation of why he can't. That seems like a plot hole for me. :(

I’m honestly glad we didn’t get some sort of shot showing Cas’ reaction to things. They’ve wasted enough of Cas’ precious few appearances as it is on one scene appearances. 

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

I'm interested @AwesomO4000 on your thought's regarding Sam's reaction to Dean declaring Jack family.  His reaction seemed nuanced to me.  Not just "glad he accepts Jack" but also maybe "glad we're on the same page?" or "glad Dean accepts my judgement?".  Thoughts?

I'll need to watch again, but maybe "I'm glad we don't have to disagree any more?"

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

I’m honestly glad we didn’t get some sort of shot showing Cas’ reaction to things. They’ve wasted enough of Cas’ precious few appearances as it is on one scene appearances. 

You know, when I was done watching the episode my immediate reaction was that I can't believe they left Cass out of the mid-season finale. But, now that I've had time to think about it, I think it was both the right and smart choice. I think it was better to focus on what needed to get done rather than overpack the episode just to get everyone in. I'd rather they take their time and flesh out Cass's story rather than cram it in with all the Wayward set up here. This way no storyline got short changed like most mid-season finales of late have done.

However, here's to hoping they sink their teeth into Cass's storyline as we head into the back half. 

Edited December 12, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Wynne88]

Quote

On another note, when the two winged-douchebags kidnapped Kaia, I legitimately thought they were demons. It's pretty bad that you can't tell them apart these days without a program.

Yes to this.  Especially now that demons seem to have acquired angel blades.

[Myrelle]

15 hours ago, FlickChick said:

The music is louder, more present during dialog which results in missing key conversations. Why? I haven't a clue except that we have "teen angel" on now, so we should cater to the teens' way of watching TV which is a lot of noise most of the time drowning out dialog on a regular basis. There are some shows I don't even attempt to watch without Closed Captions because the music is so loud. This was never a problem for me on Supernatural until Dabb took over completely and he has raised the volume more this year than last. :(

IA and I noticed it even more on the previous episode than in this one-which is the thread that I'm on my way to now...

[Pondlass1]

3 hours ago, Wynne88 said:

It's pretty bad that you can't tell them apart these days without a program

Maybe change the colour of the business suits?  Angels in white - demons in dark red?  It would be kind of cool. and at least we'd know right away... oh, it's the angels.

[catrox14]

6 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I’m honestly glad we didn’t get some sort of shot showing Cas’ reaction to things. They’ve wasted enough of Cas’ precious few appearances as it is on one scene appearances. 

No, that's not what I meant. I didn't want a reaction shot of Cas because there is nothing for him to react to since he doesn't know what's going on at this point.

I was fully expecting him to be included in that montage that showed like 3 different shots of the now empty  boat. The quiet desolation and emptiness of that scene should have included a moment of Cas in jail, separated from his family who were just speaking of him with love and Jack reminding the boys and the audience that Lucifer means nothing to him;  to show that TFW 2.0 are not on the same plane of existence anymore and they can't save each other right now. I really think that would have been a touching moment to include.

What I absolutely DO NOT WANT is for WS to save Cas from Asmodeus. I can't see a reason for that to happen but I'm just putting it out there. I want Dean to save Cas as poetic symmetry.

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

What I absolutely DO NOT WANT is for WS to save Cas from Asmodeus. I can't see a reason for that to happen but I'm just putting it out there. I want Dean to save Cas as poetic symmetry.

I think Cass is going to save himself somehow.

[bozodegama]

I really can't see how their going to finish all the plots that they have hanging.  They have all the Wayward girls, Asmodeus (whose not such a scary bad guy, Michael, Lucifer, Jack, probably Billy, Cass, Ketch.  It's a real mixed bag this year.  Also, they don't really have a big bad this year (Michael? eh).  I hope they don't leave a lot of plots hanging until next year.  I'm really hoping next year's not the last year and they finish in season 15.

[Wayward Son]

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

No, that's not what I meant. I didn't want a reaction shot of Cas because there is nothing for him to react to since he doesn't know what's going on at this point.

I was fully expecting him to be included in that montage that showed like 3 different shots of the now empty  boat. The quiet desolation and emptiness of that scene should have included a moment of Cas in jail, separated from his family who were just speaking of him with love and Jack reminding the boys and the audience that Lucifer means nothing to him;  to show that TFW 2.0 are not on the same plane of existence anymore and they can't save each other right now. I really think that would have been a touching moment to include.

Spoiler

 

 

As far as I know 

Spoiler for later in s13

Spoiler

Cas wont appear again until episode 12 so we should be safe from a rescue by the WS. The fact he didn’t appear in this episode and won’t appear in ep 10 suggests to me he’ll likely have nothing to do with the spin off. 

[Whimsy]

As a reminder- do not discuss future episodes in episode threads. A few posts have been removed due to referencing an upcoming episode. 

[Philip]

Supernatural is the one CW show I'll never give up on because I just love watching Dean, Sam, Castiel, Lucifer and Crowley all interacting and doing their goofiness as they usually do. Dean is such a comedic character that if he somehow left the show, it just wouldn't work anymore without him.

 

Anyway, one thing that kinda bothered me on this episode is that the angels had to use cars to travel around. Hm, Castiel could just transport so why can't these ones? xD

[Wayward Son]

4 minutes ago, Philip said:

Anyway, one thing that kinda bothered me on this episode is that the angels had to use cars to travel around. Hm, Castiel could just transport so why can't these ones? xD

The angels (with the exception of Lucifer) haven’t been able to teleport since Metatron’s spell made them all from heaven and clip their wings in the process. That’s why in recent seasons even Castiel has been seen driving his own car :)

 

Welcome to the Supernatural section of Previously.tv by the way. 

[shoetingstar]

It's pretty sad that I started watching this episode, and then days later realized I hadn't finished it. And I almost didn't care, but I didn't want to dodge spoilers. So I watched, finally, and about 95% of it all annoyed me. Lots of overacting from everyone not Dean and Sam and the girl that payed Kaia (even the actor that plays Jack, who I normally like, was a little off to me in this one). Just came off to me like lots of nonsense just to get that last shot of the boys in the Dino foot imprint. THAT was a cool shot, I must admit. But I'm not excited about that type of deal being on Supernatural. Hated Dean pulling the gun on Kaia. WHY do Angels have to be such dicks? I can't tell them from the Demons. Oh wait, I did like Jack and his "I love Cocaine" line was hilarious lol. 

I'm enjoying the fan reactions - the Jurassic Park memes more than the actual episode and plots. This is when I appreciate the fandom.

[takalotti]

THEN:

 

Holy out of context, Batman...

 

[Jack uses his power to throw the ghoul and inadvertently kills the security guard]

Jack (vo): I've only been on earth for a few days and I've already hurt people.

[Jack reacts to the guard's death with disbelief]

Jack: No.

Jack (vo): I know I should feel bad...

Sam: He's dead.

Jack (vo): ...but I don't feel anything. I must be evil like Lucifer. 

[Jack uses his power to throw Sam, Dean, and Cas across the war room before vanishing]

Castiel: Jack!

Sam: He's gone.

 

The voiceover bits were from when Jack talked to the shapeshifter therapist. Back then he didn’t know much about his powers and accidentally released them which hurt people (Sam and Dean in the nursery, the one sheriff, the tattoo artist), so not feeling bad even when he knew he should is understandable.

 

But with the guard, Jack purposely used his powers and killed the guy. And because of this, he FELT BAD. I mean, some viewers might not believe his reaction and feel that they were crocodile tears, and that’s fine. I’m not arguing that. Just don’t show us an incident and overlay Jack's out of context comments while leaving out his IN context comments.

 

Really, Show? Still no reminder that Cas is off the board and why in the THEN segment but still having the boys mention talking to "Cas" in the episode so that casual viewers are confused? Yeah, okay.

 

I know I’m harping on this, but the show is trying to have it both ways. They're having the boys touch base with Cas from time to time or else viewers will be wondering why the boys aren’t assuming he’s missing and looking for him, but since he’s actually being held prisoner they’re having Asmodeus duplicating Cas' voice so the boys won’t suspect his dire straits. Fine. Annoying but fine. 

 

But here's the problem. Asmodeus is looking for Jack! In this episode, they’re still keeping in touch with "Cas" about their collective search for Jack and they FIND JACK. It only makes sense that they’d call or text Cas with "Found him in Bismarck!" But the show can’t have them do that because then Asmodeus would know where Jack was and should show up, but they can’t fit that into the episode. So instead they have the boys NOT update Cas, even though they just did at the top of the episode! Gah! To me, it basically comes across as, "We don’t care if viewers forgot what happened to Cas, but don’t forget about Cas, now forget about Cas."

 

NOW: 

 

The show actually got me. I believed Jack did fry Derek. I just assumed it was sort of an accident, meaning yes he purposely tapped into Derek's head but no he didn’t mean to take it so far, just got carried away.

 

From the moment Jack pointed to the painting of AW, I assumed he was trying to rescue Mary. Never even considered that he’d be trying to find Lucifer. Did anyone even tell him Lucifer was over there? When Sam copped to wanting to use Jack as an inter-dimensional can-opener way back when, I specifically remember that he left out that Lucifer was there, too. But I don’t remember every conversation since to know if there was any indication that Jack was in the loop about Lucifer being there. So I thought it was a little weird that that was Dean's first conclusion. Then again, when the 3 of them were in the car and Dean said they thought he was trying to find Lucifer, Jack's reaction was "Why would I do that? He’s nothing to me" and not "Lucifer is there, too?" So who knows!

 

I’m rather neutral on Jack, yet I found his "You’re not the only one with powers" cute and amusing. (Sidenote: This reminded me of how the forums have a nickname for him, but for the life of me I couldn’t remember what it was. I was like "Pancake? No. Cupcake? No. I think it was something breakfast related. Muffin? No." Finally came across it in a thread. Cinnamon roll! So close!)

 

So Jack overloads Derek so much that the water at his feet steams up and he screams in pain, Jack stops and says sorry he didn’t mean to, but then Derek just gives him Kaia's info? He’s not at all concerned that Jack might push too hard with her, too? Oookay.

 

First time through I didn’t pay close attention to the scene right after Jack shows his vision of Mary. I was straining to follow what Jack and Sam were talking about that I didn’t even notice that they had gone blurry and their voices became distorted/fuzzy, and I really didn’t see Dean's face. So his pulling a gun on Kaia later came totally out of nowhere for me.

 

Fortunately, you guys pointed out this scene so I didn’t make the same mistake the second time through. Thank you so much. It was beautifully done all around.

 

But man oh man that moment with Dean and Kaia. I shrank back into my couch. Not in fear, like he startled me. More like he crossed a line and I’m scared about what this means for him and I was thinking "Oh God, Dean, no," if that makes sense. Also, upon rewatch, I noticed this came RIGHT after Jack basically said "FU" to the Angels, specifically citing their moral corruption based on how they killed Derek and kidnapped Kaia as his reason not to go with them. Not only do I have a problem with Dean threatening an innocent at gunpoint just because "Whatever it takes" with a side of guilt, but I also don’t want this to be the start of Jack questioning his alliance with the human race. If he ever goes darkside, will that trace back to Lucifer's DNA or Dean's moment of questionable morals here?

 

Okay. I know that this show has no respect for geography. I usually don’t care or even notice if they started driving at night and arrive across the country by dawn. But if you are going to have Jack say "Derek said there are sacred sites, places where the walls between worlds are thin, where it's easy to cross over. I was taking Kaia to the Wind Caves" then I’m going to care if they end up at a shipyard that’s about 6 hours away (actually, I was originally confused because they ran into that ship like that was their intention all along and I was thinking "Really? This is a sacred site?"). I get that they got hijacked by Angels (BTW, how did they get ahead of the boys? That means they weren’t just following the boys but knew where they were headed in order to be driving toward them) but when Kaia suggests opening a door to get out of there, suddenly sacred sites don’t matter anymore. All they needed to do was add "But we're hours from the Wind Caves" to the beginning of Sam's "What if something goes wrong?" 

 

Or don’t specify an actual place like the Wind Caves. Instead have Jack say "I was taking Kaia to the closest one," then Kaia suggests opening a door to bail on the Angel attack, and Sam says "How do we know if we're close enough to the site? What if something goes wrong?" and Dean answers "Something already IS going wrong! Close enough or not, let's do it!"

 

Gah!

 

But as stuck on the geography nit pick as I am, and as much as I wish Dean hadn’t crossed that line, this was a fantastic episode. From the moment Sam, Jack and Kaia ran across the bridge into the ship, it really did feel like a movie like some already mentioned here. The cinematography, the music, the intensity. Hoo! I didn’t question why Angels could just pound on the ground to melt warding; I was on edge wondering what was gonna happen. I didn’t question whether the guys were right for scrapping certain suggestions; I was just happy they were at least acknowledging known options and I was on edge wondering if anything would work.

 

This isn’t important, but when Dean and Sam hopped into the footprint, did they know it was a footprint? It didn’t seem like it.

[Katy M]

12 minutes ago, takalotti said:

This isn’t important, but when Dean and Sam hopped into the footprint, did they know it was a footprint? It didn’t seem like it.

I don't think they did.  From where they were standing, they wouldn't have a large enough view point. I think they just thought it was a depression.

[rue721]

I really loved this episode. Kaia was a great addition -- the actress did a great job, and the character seemed really reasonable, smart, and down to earth. And that image of her laying by the side of the road at the end -- damn. Also, I admit, I got sucked into assuming that Jack had killed Derick, and then I felt really bad about that when Jack was so hurt to find out that Dean and Sam had been assuming the same thing! :P Nice job, show. Nice job. The scenes at the shipyard were really cinematic, too. And I was shocked at Dean pulling a gun on Kaia, but at the same time, I can totally buy that he was in the headspace to do that. I thought that was a nice character moment in that it wasn't OOC (IMO) but it *was* really unexpected and shocking just the same. That the show can still shock me with an in-character revelation about one of its stars, 13 years in, is quite a feat. There was some wonky stuff (I especially didn't like some sorta "shaky cam" visuals in the scene when Dean kidnaps Kaia -- I get why they were doing that, tonally, but it didn't work for me). But overall, this was an A+ episode IMO.

On 12/9/2017 at 11:00 AM, DittyDotDot said:

Eh, I don't think Dean was out of line or unheroic in his actions here. I thought it was pretty clear he was desperate to help Mary and had just lost his patience with the debate. I felt like it was a very Dean thing to do, myself and  I never once felt like Kaia was actually in any danger from Dean.

I think Dean was totally out of line, but I understand where his head was at and why he was like, "fuck this noise, gotta do what you gotta do" when Kaia was saying she didn't want to help him out. It seemed in-character to me, especially given how desperate he was at that point. I mean, I wasn't really that affected seeing what was going on with Mary (and I even like Mary alright, it just didn't have much oomph for some reason), but I assume Dean was freaking out because who wouldn't be freaking out seeing their mom in danger like that?

That said, I didn't think that Kaia was *actually* in danger beyond the inherent danger that dreamwalking and especially dreamwalking to a Hellscape (either the Bad Place or the AU) placed her in -- but in Kaia's shoes, I would also have been absolutely terrified. Of both the dreamwalking/destination and of Dean (and of these other two freaks with Dean lol).

What's funny is that I can see why Kaia would be 100% willing to send them all to the Bad Place soon after. Like, "OK, crazy guy with a gun, I will send you to Hell (or a Hell-adjacent) AU ASAP! no problem!" And in a way, in the Bad Place, she'd have the upper hand anyway, since at least she's fairly familiar with it. The Devil you know and all that. Once people start showing up with weird powers, kidnapping her, talking about how they're angels, etc, I feel like the good ol' Bad Place and its known dangers had to have started looking like a pretty viable escape hatch to her LOL.

On 12/9/2017 at 1:44 PM, catrox14 said:

Berens has put Dean into the box of someone women and girls should be afraid of. Wow.

Dean has been shown again and again to be intimidating and a pretty tough guy, and someone who can be downright hard on people when they're standing between him and his mission (let alone on his enemies). So it wasn't OOC or some big gender politics statement to me that he'd be hard on Kaia, just like he's been hard on Kevin or even Sam in the past. He *is* someone that it makes sense for women, girls, men, and boys to all be afraid of, because at the end of the day, you don't fuck with Dean Winchester. He's going to get his way. It's not a good thing or a bad thing about him, it's just a fact of his character that he's not one to be crossed. And the fact is that Kaia had something he really wanted (the ability to get to the AU) and so if she wasn't going to give it to him willingly he was going to take it. He had the power to take it, and so he was going to.

He has a heart of gold and all but I don't think that is going to make him necessarily a safe person to be around, and lots and lots of characters have been visibly/explicitly intimidated by or scared of him before. He's cultivated that image -- someone not to be crossed (and especially if you're a monster!). I guess I don't see what makes it so that women and girls should feel or even would actually be especially safe when men and boys clearly and reasonably aren't and don't feel safe when they're at odds with him (or even at risk of being at odds or of dragging their feet when cooperating with him).

[auntvi]

15 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I think Dean was totally out of line, but I understand where his head was at and why he was like, "fuck this noise, gotta do what you gotta do" when Kaia was saying she didn't want to help him out. It seemed in-character to me, especially given how desperate he was at that point. I mean, I wasn't really that affected seeing what was going on with Mary (and I even like Mary alright, it just didn't have much oomph for some reason), but I assume Dean was freaking out because who wouldn't be freaking out seeing their mom in danger like that?

Have to keep in mind that Jack had just shown Sam & Dean his vision of Mary in AU world short time before. Dean had discovered Mary was really alive after rejecting Sam's hopefulness for weeks (months?). So, yeah, I can buy Dean freaking out and over-reacting.

[catrox14]

37 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Dean has been shown again and again to be intimidating and a pretty tough guy, and someone who can be downright hard on people when they're standing between him and his mission (let alone on his enemies). So it wasn't OOC or some big gender politics statement to me that he'd be hard on Kaia, just like he's been hard on Kevin or even Sam in the past. He *is* someone that it makes sense for women, girls, men, and boys to all be afraid of, because at the end of th

The issue is that the show in s13, has been building up to Wayward Sisters which is all about female empowerment. Dean is the only character who has been chastised in narrative as kind of telling Patience what to do back in 13.3 via Jody. And in this episode it was escalated 100 fold.  That was more my point. 

16 minutes ago, auntvi said:

Have to keep in mind that Jack had just shown Sam & Dean his vision of Mary in AU world short time before. Dean had discovered Mary was really alive after rejecting Sam's hopefulness for weeks (months?). So, yeah, I can buy Dean freaking out and over-reacting.

If this was the only time Dean had been presented as bullying a young woman, I could ignore it.

It just didn't make any sense how it was written.  Unless it was all for shock value. 

[ILoveReading]

On 6/5/2018 at 1:36 PM, rue721 said:

So it wasn't OOC or some big gender politics statement to me that he'd be hard on Kaia, just like he's been hard on Kevin or even Sam in the past. He *is* someone that it makes sense for women, girls, men, and boys to all be afraid of, because at the end of the day, you don't fuck with Dean Winchester. He's going to get his way.

I disagree here.  I'm not denying that Dean can be intimidating but that's usually toward adults or the bad guys.

With kids and traumatized people he's usually pretty gentle.  Lucas, Timmy, the kids in Freaks and Geeks.    He found a way to reach them with compassion.  There was also Michael in s1.  He wanted Michael's help but he still gave him a choice. 

So I don't buy that Dean would pull a gun on a traumatized teenager who just confessed that what he was asking her to physically hurt her.   That IMO, is out of character for Dean based on what we've seen in the past. 

Yes, Dean does like to get his way but we've also seen if you lay out another strategy he will listen. 

According to Beren's he said Dean just did it, and that he would never have fired.  So it doesn't sound like he wrote it with Dean being in a bad headspace in mind. It was more like lazy writing to get from point A to point B. 

Not to mention the lack of follow up.  

Spoiler

I mean in the next ep, less than 2 days in monsterland, and Dean's like 'meh we live here now."  So why the 180?  If he was so desperate to find Mary, he should have been desperate to try and get out of Jurassic Park.

Edited June 7, 2018 by garnetarden
Added spoiler tags

[catrox14]

On 6/5/2018 at 2:37 PM, ILoveReading said:

According to Beren's he said Dean just did it, and that he would never have fired.  So it doesn't sound like he wrote it with Dean being in a bad headspace in mind. It was more like lazy writing to get from point A to point B. 

Does Berens understand that Dean doesn't draw his weapon unless he intends to use it?

He would have been better off saying Dean just lost his mind for a minute and had Dean directly apologize for losing his mind.

On 6/5/2018 at 2:37 PM, ILoveReading said:

Not to mention the lack of follow up.  

Spoiler

I mean in the next ep, less than 2 days in monsterland, and Dean's like 'meh we live here now."  So why the 180?  If he was so desperate to find Mary, he should have been desperate to try and get out of Jurassic Park.

 

 IMO, Berens was writing Dean that way to make sure we saw a difference between 'uber macho Dean' (who doesn't exist BTW) and Sam and Jack, and these women who will make the world safer in a different way....except not.

Edited June 7, 2018 by garnetarden
Added spoiler tags to quote

[rue721]

23 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 IMO, Berens was writing Dean that way to make sure we saw a difference between 'uber macho Dean' (who doesn't exist BTW) and Sam and Jack, and these women who will make the world safer in a different way....except not.

I have to say, I don't see that angle at all. IMO this wasn't about Dean being macho, it was about him being unstoppable. Which isn't a gender-specific trait in general, let alone on this particular show.

How I see it, he thinks Mary's life is at stake and he's not going to do like he did with the mute kid who knew about the asylum and just dance around the issue and be very gentle and compassionate until everyone is dead. I think he crossed a line by pulling a gun on Kaia, but I also understand why he would, given the stakes (Mary's life). And Dean *has* crossed major lines for very, very similar reasons before. Selling his soul at the Crossroads is one example (and a much bigger line to cross IMO). When the rubber hits the road, Dean will do whatever he thinks he has to, and he's not going to wait for anyone's permission before he does. YMMV, but I really think that's baked into who he is as a character. Chuck knows it's been a major issue in Sam and Dean's relationship since forever, although thankfully it seems like they've finally figured out that dynamic.

I don't think this episode was saying anything much about gender politics except insomuch as it highlighted how powerless Kaia was (for a whole lot of reasons, which she herself outlined) and how conscious she herself was of that fact. Which I actually liked. I think that because we (the audience) were so far into Kaia's head/perspective by the time Dean pulled a gun on her that seeing her be made powerless AGAIN, and by Dean no less, had a huge impact. But just because it felt especially hard to see, because we were identifying with her and cared about her at that point (or I was, anyway), and the power dynamics of these tough, super empowered grown white men surrounding her, pulling a weapon on her, and forcing her to do their bidding were really stark on screen, doesn't mean that it was OOC or so crazy as a choice for Dean to make. I think that the episode actually did an exceptional job of letting us feel/understand BOTH their perspectives simultaneously. They had a disagreement and Dean won because he was stronger, and it felt terrible because of the impact on Kaia of being made powerless again, and yet it also felt inevitable because Dean wasn't going to let Kaia's trepidation keep his mother literally twisting in the wind in Hellworld.

BTW I also think the show is somewhat making a statement with regard to race by having everyone be so terrified of Jack and constantly on the lookout for him to do something terrible and always seeing him as a lot more grown-up than he actually is -- although then the show has an adult white man in that role, which arguably twists the statement in a pretty strange way so *shrug.* I like that they're at least sorta/kinda going there, though. But honestly, I was so worried about the whole "half-breed" thing in S12 that maybe I'm just overwhelmed by relief at how this whole thing of Jack being a nephilim is being handled lol.

[The Companion]

On 12/7/2017 at 8:17 PM, Jeddah said:

I liked Kaya. It was interesting that “The Bad Place” she kept seeing ended up being a different AU than wherever Mary is. She referenced Trump’s America. So what happened to the Lotus President?

I really like Jack. He’s adorable. He looked so sweet when Dean said he did good. And he was just trying to make the boys happy by rescuing Mary.

 

Continuity? What's that?

I also like Jack, which continues to be shocking to me.

 

On 12/8/2017 at 6:23 AM, Bobcatkitten said:

 

But dinosaurs? Really? I love this show and I'm along for the ride but man it was a rough ride this week. And to be honest I'm not excited for the next one. 

 

I don't think the dinosaur reveal was supposed to be as funny as I found it. 

On 12/8/2017 at 10:19 AM, Aeryn13 said:

Dean pulling the gun on Kaya was a really bad moment because the writing wasn`t there for it, not in this episode and not in this Season so far. They can`t have OTT slapstick comedy and then try to pull a "the character is really in a dark place" moment. I also didn`t like the double negative, he was wrong about Mary and now he is wrong in handling how he was wrong about it. Groanworthy. 

All IMO to get to the end and have Kaya transport them away. This could have easily been accomplished with her agreeing to help on her own. There was no need to make Dean look horrible for shits and giggles just to get there.  

Also with Sam, they want to have their cake and eat it, too. He offers up a shocked "Dean" but otherwise lets it happen. Considering he has gotten judgemental over much less, why did he not step in with such a situation? That was as ludicrously OOC as Dean doing it in the first place.     

       

I was enraged by this decision. I don't care what they say about how he wouldn't have actually used the gun on the teenage girl. She didn't know that. She feared for her fucking life. That is not okay. There were plenty of ways to show his desperation and guilt that didn't involve threatening a child.

Paired with the kinda creepy SIX CALLS to a teenage girl, it was not a great episode for Dean.

They needed a fuckton more to establish and justify this for me. Particularly when the girl he threatened was vulnerable. It was a bad look.

 

On 12/8/2017 at 11:36 AM, catrox14 said:

 

Sadly though, that doesn't change the horrible optics of an episode that has a 40 year old man putting a gun to the head of teenage girl who has shown her own suffering and her acquiescing to his demands. That's the optics left behind. I

 

This x100. 

On 12/8/2017 at 12:14 PM, catrox14 said:

Long time viewers who know Dean and have a perception of him will find ways to have it make sense, accept it and even forgive Dean for the transgression. The problem is that episode was not for those viewers only. It was also for the Wayward viewers who are only tuning in for the Wayward connection to this episode. What do they get?

A teenage girl who can't control her unasked for power and suffers for it is the protagonist in this situation and she is accosted by this other apparent teenager ish guy who seems to want her to use her powers but she punches him and fights him off. "Yay you go girl".  And this guy is awkward just wants her to know she can do good things with her power.

Then there are two older dudes, one who is being nice to her, and suddenly this other guy who yes is desperate to save his mother, puts a gun in the face of the innocent teenager and she's terrified of him.

How do you think that's gonna play with the female audience they hope to get. Not everyone finds it hot when Dean acts that way or even knows what Dean's history is. And boom now he's the villain in the episode and maybe even the villain of the entire work, if you don't know all about Dean's history. 

It's a bad look and not well handled at all. Bleh.

And it was a deliberate choice to put Dean in that situation. I am less charitable that Dabb has a longer thing for Dean's benefit. I just don't see what it does other than making Dean the villain here. 

This was a straight up villain move in my book. The ONLY way I can get past it is to decide it was an OOC decision by the writers. 

 

On 12/8/2017 at 1:01 PM, Myrelle said:

Indeed.

And I know that I agreed with an earlier post that said his fans would know that Dean would have never pulled the trigger, but I'm going to do a turn around on that part of the post that I agreed with because when I was watching, I honestly was afraid that he might do it-and obviously so was the girl.

Dean was So Friggin' Dark and Scary as Hell there.

But this just makes me feel more strongly than ever that it is imperative that these writers simply do something more with this aspect of Dean this season, and with what happened there with him or it will just reinforce my already held belief that Jensen is being wasted on this show and with this present set of writers, especially.

So I guess for me Berens comment should have been more along the lines of that's something to wonder about. His actual comment now makes me feel as if this was just a weird character beat that he threw in there, which is again, too bad, as my little bit of hope of more coming out of it for Dean, has now become more diminished to practically nothing...*sigh*...

Agreed. He was pretty damn scary and when you combine it with the fact that she was clearly scared of him and didn't know it was a bluff, this doesn't mitigate it for me. 

 

On 12/8/2017 at 1:51 PM, Jediknight said:

That ain't a dinosaur.  Something tells me they're going to be introducing Lovecraftian type gods.  They need to introduce something that Jack wouldn't just stomp into the ground in 3 seconds, and bringing in those type of gods would be right up the alley.  It's why Billie wants the Wichesters alive, they, Castiel, Jody, Donna, the Wayward Daughters, and Jack working together stand the best chance of stopping them from taking over this and countless other dimensions.

Fantastic mid-season finale, and I am digging the heck out of this season.  Jack has been a great addition to the show, and I love that so far they haven't had him tempted by the dark side.  He doesn't give a rat's ass about Lucifer, he only cares about Sam, Dean, and Castiel, they're his family.

Fear not. If they stick around they will take on human forms and pick up some suits. 😂

 

On 12/9/2017 at 7:45 AM, bethy said:

As an aside, every time I read "The Bad Place" I think about The Good Place. 

The Bad Place definitely needs more Vicky.

 

On 12/10/2017 at 1:17 AM, companionenvy said:

Yeah, I don't get Patience's father.

He decided his mother was a fraud -- despite presumably having evidence of multiple successful predictions --  because she was wrong about his wife's illness. He then cut her out of his life completely because... they couldn't count on her? Because she would bring danger to them?... even though there's no evidence she ever brought danger on the family, and his wife's death had zero to do with her.  Plus, Missouri lived well into her sixties, and could have escaped at the end if not for her dumb and irrational idea of serving as a warning.

He then tries to stop his daughter from being a psychic, even though we've never heard of any way of stopping being a psychic.  In order to keep her safe, he tells her not to come back if she leaves. Yes, I get that he was hoping the ultimatum would make her stay, but it doesn't leave him with much of a plan "B" if she leaves.

Father of the year, that one. 

Yep. He's a real peach, isn't he? Telling his daughter to stop being the way she was born. Disowning her for trying to save a life. 

 

 

On 12/10/2017 at 3:47 PM, Bobcatkitten said:

This so much. They had options - use Jack's powers; banishing sigil; fight and kill with angel blades. They tried none because of the AU thing. It was sloppy.

 

 

I hated a lot about this episode. Nothing more than Dean pulling the gun, but I also spent the entire fight scene yelling that Jack could teleport. 

On 12/10/2017 at 4:22 PM, catrox14 said:

That's true and it's still bad storytelling to not have the show at least have the supposedly still best hunters in the world who know what to do about angels, just run from them. Just to get them into the AU. I hate that kind of writing.

Just have them talk about why banishing wouldn't work. Like it was possible to have that brief discussion.

Dean: Sam can't you banish them?
Sam:  Not through these iron walls (or something).
Dean: Jack, can't you whammy them out of the room?
Jack: I can't Dean. I only have enough power to guide Kaia to the other world.
Dean: "Son of a bitch. Okay, just do it now them Jack!. 

See problem solved. We can debate if that was logical but at least the show would have shown the boys aren't just freaking out and doing nothing. Bah.

Exactly 

On 12/11/2017 at 8:53 AM, Pondlass1 said:

Well, all I can say is that I enjoyed this episode way more than last year's mid-season finale with the brothers meekly going off to government jail. 

Ha. Ok you fixed it. At least they didn't just sit over the unconscious president in this one

Edited March 17, 2020 by The Companion