S13.E09: The Bad Place

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Well, this isn't the first time they've ignored the obvious for the sake of the plot.  Whether by making the boys look hapless and incompetent, or having spells/powers work or not work, depending on the circumstance.  It's the easiest way to get from point A to point B, and these writers love a shortcut.  It's one of my biggest beefs when watching not just this show, but most shows/movies.  When they have the characters do something implausible, it  normally takes me right out of the story.  I've pretty much gotten used to it on SPN, because it's so commonplace.  My ability to finally gloss over some of this stuff has definitely improved my viewing experience this season.  

And I'm not suggesting it is the first time. It happens more often now IMO. And it annoys me more now.  I hate it. So I'm not picking on Berens other than he wrote the episode. I've bitched about other writers crappy plot driven writing.

2 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

Yeah, I'm OK with all the points, but the way they wrote them from point to point was just lazy.  Honestly, you could have had the same result without the stupid angel brigade.  Jack shows Kaia what's possible, she agrees to help, Jack can't pinpoint the right AU, Dean says "go for it anyway", and they get split up.  The whole angel chase was so hollow and laughable as our heroes conveniently forgot all they've learned about fighting dickbags.

I think they wanted to make the angels new sigil destroying thing be in episode for...reasons. 

Edited December 11, 2017 by catrox14

[sarthaz]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think they wanted to make the angels new sigil destroying thing be in episode for...reasons. 

I guess that makes sense.

[MysteryGuest]

I guess I've made my peace with the writing to some extent.  Or I've resigned myself to the fact that it's not really going to get any better.  We'll probably end up losing more people to the spinoff, so that means even newer writers, possibly.  At this point, I'm along for the ride for as long as it goes.  And I am enjoying this season, so that's a real bonus.  

Last season was painful for me, and in addition to being annoyed with the writing and the Lucifer love, I was depressed because I really thought they'd ruined the show for me.  I was almost dreading this season.  But I like Jack, I've enjoyed most of the new characters we've met, and even Lucifer is palatable, at least for now.  The only real negative for me is Asmodeus, and I've only had to suffer him in small doses.  Sam and Dean are very much involved in the weekly stories, and I don't think they've had them do too many things that were out-of-character.  So all things considered, I think it's a win.  And I'm actually looking forward to seeing where they go from here.  

[enaiowen]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Especially given the promo that shows the boys tied up to trees. Unless Dinosaurs have developed the ability to capture humans I don't think it will be dinosaurs.

That skull didn't really look like a dinosaur skull to me anyway.

[SueB]

Sloppy writing?  Stupid writing?  Lazy? I get people don't like a particular plot line or a perceived contrivance (and YES, they use contrivances all the time -- it's part of story telling) to get Character's A thru D to their intended destination; but there is SO much work that goes into a script and making things just right.  Now, as it turns out, they could have taken a few minutes more to explain why not use the banishing sigil as the episode ran short.... but instead they choose to expand on the Sam/Dean/Jack car scene.  IMO they choose wisely.  That was a great scene, one I've already rewatched half a dozen times.  So, yes.. there were options ... but with each I could also come up with a throw-a-way line  or reason why not trying that option was not a great idea.

No sigil:  They choose to say "too many".  But here's some additional considerations:
1) Jack DID physically react to the banishing in 13.01.  His face got all glowy.  He did that before he figured out he could teleport.  So, one option is that now that he easily teleports, he may have been banished with the rest of the angels.  Plus he's honed his skills.  Maybe the half-glowy thing would have been worse.  
2) Are Jack's skills good enough to take someone someplace?  We don't know.  He's never done it.  And his skills are still very new.  If dreamwalking to get to their Mom was an option, I'm sure the Winchesters would have chosen that chance rather than an untried skill.
3) There really WERE too many.  Angel-B-Gone IS a proximation issue.  So if all of Heaven (via Angel radio) knew Jack was there, it was only a matter of time before they would have been overwhelmed.  Reinforcements could have stayed outside.  They were physically trapped on a boat.  Which is the equivalent of backing them into a corner.  Sure, they could have tried to hold off groups of 3 or 4 as they walked in the door -- but eventually they would have been breached.  In warfare, it's called the Principle of Mass -- and it applies to this situation.  And again -- every attempt would have at least hurt Jack.
4) Because they were trapped, using the dream walker option -- as Kaia suggested -- was the best option. They may not get another chance. Clearly the boys were desperate to get to their Mom.  "Regrouping" was not a likely option. 
So... yes, this all could have been talked about in the episode but I don't think it was really horrible that they didn't.  They picked "there's too many" - good enough for me -- Sam doesn't need Dean to explain basic "Principle of Mass" tactics.  You can pick holes if you like, but I can plug them just as easily.  And really, to me, I LIKED the things they focused on and I liked where the story went.  So, I'm just not fussed about this 'contrivance'.  

Dino Land:  Well, to quote Chuck "It's not really jumping the shark if you never come back down."  Seriously, this show started breaking the 4th wall and bending format as early as S2 with Hollywood Babylon.  Some of the best episodes have been that way.  "The End" is not comedic but extremely effective.  But since people have an issue with dinosaurs, here's my reponses to specific issues:
- Dinosaurs/Giant Monsters are too implausible -- the multiverse construct makes pretty much anything plausible -- personally I'm holding out for a world without shrimp.
- Dinosaurs/Giant Monsters will be cheesy looking -- first, the use of off-camera looks, the big footprint, a portion of a body are all do-able within Supernatural SFx.  And they have been kicking it out of the park this year with some of the new production techniques.  The drone use this past episode was gorgeous.  I suspect they tested out how it would look before they just "went there".  I have faith they'll pull it off.  They built a submarine on set for pity's sake.  They've done ambitous before. 
- They will likely interact with hoodie person or scary person we saw in Kaia's mindscape so Dino/Giant Monsters will not be the primary focus of the Sam/Dean storyline.
- We've set up Jack/Mary, Sam/Dean, and Jodie & Wayward.  I think they will get Sam/Dean out of The Bad Place by episodes' end so they may not have to keep up the effects for a long time.   And it's not likely the focus for the next episode.  It's the B-plot.  One episode.  I'm okay with it.

 

On a different note: I found the way they showed Kaia's scream 3 times interesting.  I don't think she screamed 3 times.  I think her scream shattered Jack's control in 3 different ways.  Hence Kaia was transported away from any alternate universe (as she really didn't want to be there), Jack went where he wanted to go (as he had the most direct focus), and Sam and Dean got sent to where Kaia's thoughts kept going -- the Bad Place.   

Edited December 11, 2017 by SueB
added bolding

[auntvi]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

On a different note: I found the way they showed Kaia's scream 3 times interesting.  I don't think she screamed 3 times.  I think her scream shattered Jack's control in 3 different ways.  Hence Kaia was transported away from any alternate universe (as she really didn't want to be there), Jack went where he wanted to go (as he had the most direct focus), and Sam and Dean got sent to where Kaia's thoughts kept going -- the Bad Place.   

It wasn't clear to me what/who vaporized the angels. It happened when Kaia screamed, but I don't think she'd have the power by herself. Was it Jack through Kaia?

[DittyDotDot]

Every episode is just getting them where they need to be, it's how they get them there that defines whether it's crappy writing or not. I've said this before, but, IMO, Berens is about the only writer on staff who seems to understand simple, elegant plotting. That's not lazy plotting, but understanding how to get from A to C without unnecessary contrivances. I'm a big believer in less is more, so, for me, the way the scenario played was simple, clean and it didn't need a bunch of contrivances for me to understand the danger they were in or what they were up against.

There was four of them--one with unknown and unpredictable powers; one with dreamwalking powers that weren't all that useful in combat; and two hunters--against 6-8 angels. Not to mention there were probably more angels on their way and they had Kaia and Jack to worry about too. They discussed options for evading and decided tactically they weren't viable options given the circumstances. It's not like they had a lot of time to set up a bunch of traps and prepare for anything more than basic hand-to-hand combat, so they decided they'd make a stand and were preparing for that when the option of dreamwalking presented itself--which not only would get everyone out, but get them to Mary. 

Simple and clean, if you ask me.

13 hours ago, catrox14 said:

And that is not a sufficient explanation. Which I think was mentioned before. Especially for hunters who have faced worse odds than that. Especially coming from Dean who has taken on and defeated 2 to 4 angels and demons himself at a time. And they still have a damn half archangel there who has powers.  They just gave up because "too many". What were they all joined at the hip and they couldn't at least blast one or two?  If they considered letting them in, they didn't have to let them ALL in. They could have let in a couple, Jack slams the door and they banish at least a couple of them. Shunted them into some other area.

Nah, sorry, crappy writing to get to them where they wanted them to be. IMO, YMMV.

I think it is either let ALL of them in or none of them in. The only thing keeping them out was the warding. Take it down to let one angel in, they all can come in. And, don't forget that just because the angels can't teleport, they still have powers at their disposal and are extremely strong. Even if Jack could've slammed a door on them--which doors weren't what was keeping the angels out, the warding was--the angels could just knock it down. Not to mention that Jack's powers are unknown, untested and unpredictable, at best. Maybe he could take out an angel or two, or maybe he accidentally ends up killing Kaiai or Sam and Dean? Personally, I would not have considered his powers an asset in this fight. And, I think too many angels is a perfectly sufficient explanation. I honestly can't think of anytime they've taken on more than one or two angels at a time. The only time I can recall them going up against this many angels at once was back in Heaven and Hell where they had the luxury of time to make and execute a plan of getting the demons to balance the odds.

I did not see them give up at all. They discussed options--sure, they didn't discuss every single possibility out there, but I don't think we need it to understand those options would also be considered non-viable--and chose a course of action they felt was best given the circumstances. No matter what other measures could've possibly, perhaps, maybe been taken, those were going to fail and adding them in would've only been a pointless waste of screen time and made it unnecessarily contrived and dumbed it all down, IMO. Which, if you ask me, is what's generally wrong with almost any Horrible Duo script. Not to mention, there just wouldn't have been time to set it up and pay it off properly given they only have so many minutes to tell their story each week and this episode had a lot of other things to cover too--making it even more convoluted and pointless.

8 hours ago, auntvi said:

It wasn't clear to me what/who vaporized the angels. It happened when Kaia screamed, but I don't think she'd have the power by herself. Was it Jack through Kaia?

I'm not a hundred percent, but I'm guessing it might've been the power of opening the doorway reverberating outward. 

ETA: Like a door being slammed open and somone on the other side being smashed between the wall and the door...uh, not sure that made it any clearer, sorry.

Edited December 11, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Katy M]

13 hours ago, catrox14 said:

And that is not a sufficient explanation. Which I think was mentioned before. Especially for hunters who have faced worse odds than that. Especially coming from Dean who has taken on and defeated 2 to 4 angels and demons himself at a time. And they still have a damn half archangel there who has powers.  They just gave up because "too many". What were they all joined at the hip and they couldn't at least blast one or two?  If they considered letting them in, they didn't have to let them ALL in. They could have let in a couple, Jack slams the door and they banish at least a couple of them. Shunted them into some other area.

I actually think it was.  If the angels need to be within a certain distance, and the distance in this case is in the ship or close to it, not all the angels are going to hit that space at the same time.  So, they use the sidgil and blast x number away while more are rushing on board.  We've never seen them use the same sigil twice, so we, nor they, know if they're reusable.  And how would they let a few in without letting them all in.  Are the angels going to be orderly and just have two come in and then allow them to redraw the sigils?  Doubtful.  Maybe it's not the way you would do things, but it doesn't mean it was sloppy or lazy or not thought out at all.

[Pondlass1]

Well, all I can say is that I enjoyed this episode way more than last year's mid-season finale with the brothers meekly going off to government jail. 

[sarthaz]

Sam: Banish them?

Dean: Can't get them all close enough at once.

Sam (looks at Jack): Teleport?

Jack: Can't. Reasons. Let's open a portal to an alternate universe instead.

*boom*

 

Too many show-runners have retconned our beloved universe with unabashed ignorance of what came before.  I can forgive all manner of contrivance, but as a fan who has dedicated 13 years of my life to this show, I need to know that the people in charge care enough about the history and lore to not just randomly make stuff up to push their story forward.  I need to know they're not going to shit all over my show and "make Tessa a suicidal angel" again.  If they need to prevent established lore from saving our heroes from a current situation, it is incumbent on them to spend 5 seconds of dialogue explaining it.  I'll take "they must have super-hearing" type explainers if that's the best they've got.  Otherwise, past experience forces me to conclude they either don't know or don't care about the history of our show and its characters, and that is even more unacceptable than "Bloodlines".

[DittyDotDot]

22 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

Sam: Banish them?

Dean: Can't get them all close enough at once.

Isn't that basically what Dean was saying when he said there were too many?

[sarthaz]

24 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Isn't that basically what Dean was saying when he said there were too many?

I don't see that.  Two more cars pull up, and Dean runs off and generically says, "We're screwed. There's too damn many of them."

But I see now that Sam does actually say something later, even if Dean's response makes no sense.

Sam: Maybe if we let them in and then we blast them all away?

Dean: No, they get in here we're dead.

I'll take it.  It doesn't make any sense at face value, but it's there.  That's all I need.  Sorry I missed it before.  Jack then says "I can try, but they'll hit me with angel radio."  Again, it makes no sense that angel radio can prevent him from doing anything but opening a portal to another universe for the first time in ... ever, but at least they tried.  I retract my statement.  I missed this the first time.  Even if their reasons are convoluted or just plain nonsense, as long as they acknowledge our lore, I'm cool with it.

Which does bring something up for me.  Something's changed this season with either the sound mix or with my CW feed.  The music is drowning out dialogue for me.  I'm missing more little nuggets than every before.  Not just this episode but all over the place.  I had to replay Jack's response to Dean 3 times and finally turned on Closed Captioning to see what he was saying.  I know the show's been on a long time, but I'm not losing my hearing yet.

Edited December 11, 2017 by sarthaz

[DittyDotDot]

56 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

I'll take it.  It doesn't make any sense at face value, but it's there.  That's all I need.  Sorry I missed it before.  Jack then says "I can try, but they'll hit me with angel radio."  Again, it makes no sense that angel radio can prevent him from doing anything but opening a portal to another universe for the first time in ... ever, but at least they tried. 

Angel radio has been shown to be overwhelming for Jack. I don't know if it's because he's half human and it's not meant for humans or if it's just that he's inexperienced with it, but both this episode and the premiere showed it incapacitating Jack to a certain degree.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, sarthaz said:

Sam: Banish them?

Dean: Can't get them all close enough at once.

Sam (looks at Jack): Teleport?

Jack: Can't. Reasons. Let's open a portal to an alternate universe instead.

*boom*

Exactly.

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I actually think it was.  If the angels need to be within a certain distance, and the distance in this case is in the ship or close to it, not all the angels are going to hit that space at the same time.  So, they use the sidgil and blast x number away while more are rushing on board.  We've never seen them use the same sigil twice, so we, nor they, know if they're reusable.  And how would they let a few in without letting them all in.  Are the angels going to be orderly and just have two come in and then allow them to redraw the sigils?  Doubtful.  Maybe it's not the way you would do things, but it doesn't mean it was sloppy or lazy or not thought out at all.

Retreat is an absolutely reasonable action in battle so I had no problem with Dean running to the boat when he saw he, alone, was likely outnumbered and he had the mission to get the rift open and get to Mary.  The problem arose  once he's on the boat with the other 3. That's when the stupidity kicked in. 

It was four against maybe six or eight angels tops, and those four consist of a half archangel nephelim with the power to stop time in some way which he has demonstrated he can control now, a girl who can walk through dimensions, and two experienced hunters who have fought off multiple angels and multiple demons at one time via a demonstrated ability to fight in hand to hand combat, along with drawing banishing sigils in moments, like in 9 when the angels were attacking the hospital.  Dean took a beating and made a sigil. Sam took a beating this season and made a sigil.  They don't have to reuse sigils. They can make more than one cause it's not like it takes ALL their blood to make a sigil.   Instead of doing any of that, Dean, the leader at this point, I think, is all "OH NOES TOO MANY"  and they don't even bother trying even if it would have failed. That's where the writing is lazy and sloppy to character.

Heck, Sam could have made the blood sigils anyway, after he finished putting up the warding, you know just in case. Why did it not come up until Dean gets on the boat shouting about them being screwed and Sam is like what about banishing so Dean can say "No don't bother too many!" What? Since when.

They have Jack actually say "If the angels get in, they will take me and kill all of you" which was really stupid when they just showed him being able to control putting angels in stasis and making them kill themselves literally a few hours before that. No reason at all why Jack shouldn't try to do it again, except plot. 

And seriously, for the mount of time they stood around fretting about the angels breaking the warding they all 4 could have drawn 4 different sigils in different spots to take out at least 4 of the angels if not more. At minimum, they could have had Sam and Dean draw two different sigils and blast at least 4 of them away if they can only take out 2 at time with the sigil.  If I didn't know better I would think, who are these guys who are supposed to be big time hunters who just don't even TRY to do something else? 

So yeah, it's not just me whining about not getting what I wanted, because I didn't have any expectations at all going into the episode. It's me criticizing it after watching it and seeing what I think are problems in the episode.

Edited December 11, 2017 by catrox14

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, sarthaz said:

I'll take it.  It doesn't make any sense at face value, but it's there.  That's all I need.  Sorry I missed it before.  Jack then says "I can try, but they'll hit me with angel radio."  Again, it makes no sense that angel radio can prevent him from doing anything but opening a portal to another universe for the first time in ... ever, but at least they tried.  I retract my statement.  I missed this the first time.  Even if their reasons are convoluted or just plain nonsense, as long as they acknowledge our lore, I'm cool with it.

I don't remember Jack saying that but since it seems he did, whilst yes it's a reason, but it doesn't really make much sense when he was able to use that same power just hours before. Like if the angels could have hit him with angel radio all along to stop that power, why didn't they?

And Dean saying go out guns blazing? How is it guns blazing when they don't do the one thing they know will take out at least some of the angels which is banishing sigils. They HAD TIME.. 

IMO, that was all done to amp up the panicking so that when Kaia and Jack did the portal thing she was confused and upset and so they ended up in separate places.

It was action but the action was dumb LOL IMO.

[sarthaz]

24 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Angel radio has been shown to be overwhelming for Jack. I don't know if it's because he's half human and it's not meant for humans or if it's just that he's inexperienced with it, but both this episode and the premiere showed it incapacitating Jack to a certain degree.

While silly, I don't mind the premise that Angel Radio messes with Jack.  What I found ridiculous is that Jack is unable to do more reasonable tasks because of Angel Radio, but somehow opening a portal to another Universe is totally doable. :)

[sarthaz]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't remember Jack saying that but since it seems he did, whilst yes it's a reason, but it doesn't really make much sense when he was able to use that same power just hours before. Like if the angels could have hit him with angel radio all along to stop that power, why didn't they?

And Dean saying go out guns blazing? How is it guns blazing when they don't do the one thing they know will take out at least some of the angels which is banishing sigils. They HAD TIME.. 

IMO, that was all done to amp up the panicking so that when Kaia and Jack did the portal thing she was confused and upset and so they ended up in separate places.

It was action but the action was dumb LOL IMO.

Yeah, it was pretty dumb. I'm less mad about it, though, because the writers at least considered more reasonable options and chose to dismiss them in the script versus ignoring canon like they've done in the past.

I'm going to fanwank that they made the choices they did for fear that Kaia would get killed.  Without Kaia, there's no reason not to split up, lure the angels to various locales, banish as many as possible, and then hand-to-hand the rest.  The three of them could probably hand-to-hand all of them at this point, between Jack's nebulous powers and repeated episodes where the boys best multiple junkless dicks.  But Kaia's death would prevent them from getting to mom, so it wasn't worth the risk.  Or so I choose to believe.

[ILoveReading]

33 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And seriously, for the mount of time they stood around fretting about the angels breaking the warding they all 4 could have drawn 4 different sigils in different spots to take out at least 4 of the angels if not more. At minimum, they could have had Sam and Dean draw two different sigils and blast at least 4 of them away if they can only take out 2 at time with the sigil.  If I didn't know better I would think, who are these guys who are supposed to be big time hunters who just don't even TRY to do something else

Exactly why not draw them and then have your hand over so when the angels come in all you have to do it slap your hand over it before the angels have a chance to do anything.

Not to mention they keep telling us Jack is the most powerful thing in the universe, he can destroy it with a sneeze.  Is the audience supposed to believe he can't handle a few angels when we saw him do it before in the episode.  Jack not using his powers makes no sense.

[sarthaz]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

Not to mention they keep telling us Jack is the most powerful thing in the universe, he can destroy it with a sneeze.  Is the audience supposed to believe he can't handle a few angels when we saw him do it before in the episode.  Jack not using his powers makes no sense.

But ... but ... "angel radio".

[catrox14]

12 hours ago, SueB said:

Sloppy writing?  Stupid writing?  Lazy? I get people don't like a particular plot line or a perceived contrivance (and YES, they use contrivances all the time -- it's part of story telling) to get Character's A thru D to their intended destination; but there is SO much work that goes into a script and making things just right.  Now, as it turns out, they could have taken a few minutes more to explain why not use the banishing sigil as the episode ran short.... but instead they choose to expand on the Sam/Dean/Jack car scene.  IMO they choose wisely.  That was a great scene, one I've already rewatched half a dozen times.  So, yes.. there were options ... but with each I could also come up with a throw-a-way line  or reason why not trying that option was not a great ide

Lazy plotting and sloppy characterization lead to stupid things in an episode. And none of that means that they didn't work hard to write and produce the episode. I'm sure Berens is a nice, hard working fellow. 

I wouldn't have known that the car scene was an expanded scene if Berens didn't talk about it so to me spending more time on that didn't help the episode since it was essentially superfluous and also rather nonsensical in a way.

It had already been established at the end of Tombstone that Jack saw them as family. He said literally "You are my family. You are all I have" before he left. Dean had given him his approval by naming him to TFW and Dean didn't blame him for accidentally killing the guard.  Dean didn't want Jack to leave .

Where did the idea that they were worried about him looking for Lucifer come from? That was out of left field IMO and there just to repeat what was already said in Tombstone.  Why would he write a scene where in Cas is name dropped as being Jack's father, yet at no point in the episode is it mentioned or suggested that someone make a call to his beloved adopted father to tell him they found his son that he's been out looking for? I mean that's like THING 1 once they found Jack. Especially when they are sitting there talking about Jack's respective fathers. Why wouldn't that be included or addressed in some way?

I also would have preferred that time to go to better plotting and characterization during the last 15 minutes of the episode.  YMMV.

Edited December 11, 2017 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

33 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

While silly, I don't mind the premise that Angel Radio messes with Jack.  What I found ridiculous is that Jack is unable to do more reasonable tasks because of Angel Radio, but somehow opening a portal to another Universe is totally doable. :)

I don't know, Jack's powers are very unpredictable, I just go with it. ::shrugs::

I still wish the kid had been born completely powerless. I just think it would've been a really funny if Lucifer had made all these plans and the linchpin was a dud and then we wouldn't have to have these problems they constantly have to overcome due to over-powered beings. ;)

[catrox14]

34 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

But Kaia's death would prevent them from getting to mom, so it wasn't worth the risk.  Or so I choose to believe.

I appreciate your willingness to find the positive there. I mean suddenly the wimpy angels are to be so feared because they do this in unison thing. okay, sure.

The angel radio thing still doesn't make sense because Jack made it sound like it was something they were doing intentionally and if so, why wouldn't they just keep it on all the time to disrupt him at all times?  

I'm not even mad about the episode  other than Dean's behavior with Kaia. I just expect better from this show when it comes to these things because they have done SO MUCH better.  Also, the episode was so beautifully filmed and Jensen's work was great even though I didn't like what they did with Dean, that the writing flubs are more glaring. It's beauty made me watch it a couple of times and then I noticed the other stuff that left me...nonplussed.

[catrox14]

As of Tombstone, Jack was shown to be in control of moving a pencil. The only reason the bank guard was killed is that he stepped into the line of fire. He threw the boys and Cas across the room on purpose. In this episode, he actively chose who he used those powers on and how. He teleported out intentionally in Tombstone and apparently at will in this episode given how quickly he went from place to place.

I don't think there is really a case for his powers being unpredictable at this point. He might have some we haven't seen that could pop out, but of those we have seen he is now in full control.

[catrox14]

13 hours ago, SueB said:

3) There really WERE too many.  Angel-B-Gone IS a proximation issue.  So if all of Heaven (via Angel radio) knew Jack was there, it was only a matter of time before they would have been overwhelmed.  Reinforcements could have stayed outside.  They were physically trapped on a boat.  Which is the equivalent of backing them into a corner.  Sure, they could have tried to hold off groups of 3 or 4 as they walked in the door -- but eventually they would have been breached.  In warfare, it's called the Principle of Mass -- and it applies to this situation.  And again -- every attempt would have at least hurt Jack

Even if there were more coming, the skirmish at hand was ONLY those few angels. Dean was referring to that particular threat, not the possibility of 100 more showing up. He never said there were 10 other cars of angels on the way. (Now I'm thinking of a clown car stuffed with angels trying to get to the frontline and it amuses me). they only showed the 3 cars and those angels crossing the boat ramp. Given all the over head shots they did surely if it was to be intended that more were on the way they would have shown it just to amp up the danger factor. Like show a line of cars on the road. But they didn't.

Dean Winchester is a damn soldier himself. He would have been trying to figure out exactly how many they were dealing with and told Sam that number. Not "There are too many". That is not what Dean, the tactician would do. So to me that was both lazy plotting and poor characterization. At minimum Dean would have said, "Okay there were 3 cars and 6 angels. There might be more on the way.  We can't hold all of them off but we'll hold them off as long as we can. Do your thing, Jack". And then Dean and Sam would make banishing sigils to be ready if they breach the walls. That is what Dean and Sam Winchester would do. Not stand around fretting about what they can't do. They aren't the Losechesters. :)

Edited December 11, 2017 by catrox14

[sarthaz]

41 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not even mad about the episode  other than Dean's behavior with Kaia. 

Fanwanking as a bluff that worked. 

[catrox14]

Just now, sarthaz said:

Fanwanking as a bluff that worked. 

I agree that it was a bluff, but I also think Dean meant it. I think he was out of his mind with rage and messed up with seeing that vision of Mary in the cage thing and he was desperate and not himself. He wouldn't have shot her because that wouldn't have gotten him anywhere. That is still a big problem for me unless Berens/Dabb are going to do something with it.

[Diane]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Even if there were more coming, the skirmish at hand was ONLY those few angels. Dean was referring to that particular threat, not the possibility of 100 more showing up. He never said there were 10 other cars of angels on the way. (Now I'm thinking of a clown car stuffed with angels trying to get to the frontline and it amuses me). they only showed the 3 cars and those angels crossing the boat ramp. Given all the over head shots they did surely if it was to be intended that more were on the way they would have shown it just to amp up the danger factor. Like show a line of cars on the road. But they didn't.

Dean Winchester is a damn soldier himself. He would have been trying to figure out exactly how many they were dealing with and told Sam that number. Not "There are too many". That is not what Dean, the tactician would do. So to me that was both lazy plotting and poor characterization. At minimum Dean would have said, "Okay there were 3 cars and 6 angels. There might be more on the way.  We can't hold all of them off but we'll hold them off as long as we can. Do your thing, Jack". And then Dean and Sam would make banishing sigils to be ready if they breach the walls. That is what Dean and Sam Winchester would do. Not stand around fretting about what they can't do. They aren't the Losechesters. :)

But see apparently he would, because he did. Actually Dean Winchester the solider does what the story demands (what the writers have him do), not necessarily what a fan wants him to do.  

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, Diane said:

But see apparently he would, because he did. Actually Dean Winchester the solider does what the story demands (what the writers have him do), not necessarily what a fan wants him to do.  

You are correct that Berens wrote it and so it lives in canon text that Dean did not act like tactician he has been throughout the series.  I suppose I'm remembering when Dean did show good tactician skills. I suppose I should reset my expectations now that Dean won't be a good tactician henceforth and will just throw his hands up in the air and OH NOES TOO MANY, no need for tactics that I've used before".  And wait to be happily surprised when he is a smart hunter again. I just hope one day Dabb explains why Dean is being written this way in this episode. I mean other than for plot propping for the Wayward Sisters thing.

Edited December 11, 2017 by catrox14

[Diane]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

You are correct that Berens wrote it and so it lives in canon text that Dean did not act like tactician he has been throughout the series.  I suppose I'm remembering when Dean did show good tactician skills. I suppose I should reset my expectations now that Dean won't be a good tactician henceforth and will just throw his hands up in the air and OH NOES TOO MANY, no need for tactics that I've used before".  And wait to be happily surprised when he is a smart hunter again. I just hope one day Dabb explains why Dean is being written this way in this episode. I mean other than for plot propping for the Wayward Sisters thing.

In your opinion, which is not my opinion and several posters here.  So no I do not think it is canon that Dean did not act like a tactician, in this instance. I have never seen him throw up his hands and say "oh noes too many" he did not do that here either. 

[companionenvy]

But wasn't using Kaia + Jack to teleport itself a tactic?

Sure, if that hadn't been on the table, bad as the situation was, it still wouldn't have been the worst odds the Winchesters have ever faced, and I believe they might have managed. However, those wouldn't have been good or risk-free options either. So using the teleportation gambit may have actually been the smartest thing to do given everything the resources at their disposal. 

[Diane]

1 minute ago, companionenvy said:

But wasn't using Kaia + Jack to teleport itself a tactic?

Sure, if that hadn't been on the table, bad as the situation was, it still wouldn't have been the worst odds the Winchesters have ever faced, and I believe they might have managed. However, those wouldn't have been good or risk-free options either. So using the teleportation gambit may have actually been the smartest thing to do given everything the resources at their disposal. 

I think it was, they took the best option and ran with it. 

[Bobcatkitten]

So a banishing sigil that has never failed before wasn't a better tactic? Or Jack using powers he used to kill two angels a scene or two before wasn't a better tactic? Of course they were and are. Not to mention Sam and Dean have killed an angel or two before in close combat. So if the first two things don't kill them all then they can resort to the angel blade.

All of that was ignored simply to rush into the dreamwalking thing - a tactic that had never even been tried before. 

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, companionenvy said:

But wasn't using Kaia + Jack to teleport itself a tactic?

Sure, if that hadn't been on the table, bad as the situation was, it still wouldn't have been the worst odds the Winchesters have ever faced, and I believe they might have managed. However, those wouldn't have been good or risk-free options either. So using the teleportation gambit may have actually been the smartest thing to do given everything the resources at their disposal. 

No I don't consider that a tactic to fight the angels because Kaia and Jack opening the rift was the mission in the first place. The whole point of them kidnapping Kaia was to do exactly what she did. The mission became the inorganic escape plan. I don't think it was a clever thing either. JMHO

IMO, Berens wrote solely for the back door pilot and to do that he put Sam and Dean into the wrong universe and away from Mary and Jack so that WS become the hunters on this realm and for the girls to be the reluctant heroes. IMO everything else was built around that goal which means getting Dean and Sam out of the way but he didn't have to take their skills with them to do it.  Berens created a rather silly situation for the sake of drama and jeopardy that didn't need to exist to get them into separate places.

Here in order to make Kaia the reluctant hero,  Dean and Sam do not act as they typically act which means no banishing sigils for whatever reasons. It's not organic storytelling when you have two characters who do very specific things when fighting angels no matter HOW MANY and then for reasons...they don't. Jack is also not allowed to use his powers against the angels because...reasons.  I mean honestly the reasons don't REALLY matter other than it regresses the brothers to being ineffectual for the sake of Kaia being the hero.  Jack can only be her power source and she is the one guiding them to wherever. And to boot it's her screams that kill the angels...like why? Did Jack kill them or did her not!Canary Cry smite them? 

So really why were Dean and Sam there at all other than they wanted them to open the rift to save Mary which as Dean said was never her fight. It feels to me like really much of s12 and s13 has been all about the spinoff setup, which means getting boys off the table.

I don't mind character regression that results in eventual character progression and if I thought this was actually serving Dean here with the Kaia gun incident I would be more accepting. I don't even know what Sam was doing here other than reading the journal and being background player.

Right now I'm not actually convinced Dabb cares about TFW at all any more. Poor Cas wasn't even mentioned other than in that car convo.

[gonzosgirrl]

Castiel banished four angels with the sigil on his chest in 5x18, and himself along with it. So you'd think uber-powerful half-archangel, who already resisted banishment in 13x01 when he didn't even know any better, could've whammied 5 or 6 if plot reasons didn't require them to use the rift right-fucking-now-if-not-sooner instead of banishing the immediate threat and then actually focusing on only the AU where Mary is trapped. 

As @catrox14 said above, they needed Dean and Sam in a place where the Wayward Whatevers could rescue them, because apparently saving the dumb boys from themselves is the only way to demonstrate that they are brave, competent females.

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Castiel banished four angels with the sigil on his chest in 5x18, and himself along with it. So you'd think uber-powerful half-archangel, who already resisted banishment in 13x01 when he didn't even know any better, could've whammied 5 or 6 if plot reasons didn't require them to use the rift right-fucking-now-if-not-sooner instead of banishing the immediate threat and then actually focusing on only the AU where Mary is trapped. 

What good would getting rid of 5 or 6 do? 

[gonzosgirrl]

Just now, Katy M said:

What good would getting rid of 5 or 6 do? 

Okay, however many were that in that moment - I don't think it was more than 6, but maybe so. The point is, angels can't teleport, so they would be coming there in vehicles and that would take time. If Jack banished the ____ who were already there, they could've taken at least a little time to get the boys along with him to the right AU.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

use the rift right-fucking-now-if-not-sooner instead of banishing the immediate threat and then actually focusing on only the AU where Mary is trapped. 

I legit LOL'd at this.

[AwesomO4000]

On 12/9/2017 at 10:21 AM, Pondlass1 said:

His expressions leading up to pulling the gun on her were dark and pretty terrifying.  Dean is human.  He makes mistakes.  His emotions overtake and he gets scary.  We've seen it before. Usually he punches a wall or Sam or something.

Okay for some reason the way you put this made me smile, because I entirely equated hitting Sam as being like hitting a wall as I was reading it. Though in actuality that might not have been quite true - except maybe soulless Sam... with all of the not-sleeping and apparently hitting the weights instead.

On 12/9/2017 at 2:20 PM, catrox14 said:

There is literally no good character reason for Cas to call Sam before he calls Dean unless he and Dean are fighting which I would absolutely accept as a plot point because maybe Dean is pissed that Cas went off on his own again. But the show hasn't said that is the case, so the only reason for Cas to not be communicating directly with Dean is plot contrivance to maintain the mystery of Casmodeus.

But it is actually somewhat canon that Castiel's calling tactics don't always make sense. For example, in early season 5 when Sam and Dean were in the hospital with Bobby, Castiel didn't call Dean... for some reason he called Sam... who seemed equally surprised as I was that Castiel called him.

On 12/10/2017 at 4:05 PM, DittyDotDot said:

No, you're probably right that it was Anna and Uriel, that makes more sense. I was just remembering they were disappeared. Anyway, I think it still stands that the sigil is not a foolproof plan and with so many angels surrounding them, Dean was probably right that they wouldn't have survived that plan.

I agree. If the sigil is only useful when activated, and angels are potentially fast - I think even without their wings - it wouldn't take much to disable the sigils before they could be activated. It would only take a couple angels knocking one or two of them out with a finger touch or angel power for the more powerful ones and the rest messing up the sigils... Even the banishing in my opinion wouldn't necessarily have been foolproof. What would happen if only a few went in and got banished... then wave two grabbed someone as the second sigil was being employed. Would someone they grabbed get banished with the angel?

20 hours ago, sarthaz said:

Yeah, I'm OK with all the points, but the way they wrote them from point to point was just lazy.  Honestly, you could have had the same result without the stupid angel brigade.  Jack shows Kaia what's possible, she agrees to help, Jack can't pinpoint the right AU, Dean says "go for it anyway", and they get split up.  The whole angel chase was so hollow and laughable as our heroes conveniently forgot all they've learned about fighting dickbags.

I'm not sure what this says about me, but I actually found that whole scene much more intense than any confrontation like that in a long while. I was mesmerized as to what was going to happen. I actually liked that maybe this time the Winchesters were outnumbered and outgunned and had to think on their feet using something different. And that angels were actually intimidating and potentially powerful again.

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Exactly.

Retreat is an absolutely reasonable action in battle so I had no problem with Dean running to the boat when he saw he, alone, was likely outnumbered and he had the mission to get the rift open and get to Mary.  The problem arose  once he's on the boat with the other 3. That's when the stupidity kicked in. 

It was four against maybe six or eight angels tops, and those four consist of a half archangel nephelim with the power to stop time in some way which he has demonstrated he can control now, a girl who can walk through dimensions, and two experienced hunters who have fought off multiple angels and multiple demons at one time via a demonstrated ability to fight in hand to hand combat, along with drawing banishing sigils in moments, like in 9 when the angels were attacking the hospital.  Dean took a beating and made a sigil. Sam took a beating this season and made a sigil.  They don't have to reuse sigils. They can make more than one cause it's not like it takes ALL their blood to make a sigil.   Instead of doing any of that, Dean, the leader at this point, I think, is all "OH NOES TOO MANY"  and they don't even bother trying even if it would have failed. That's where the writing is lazy and sloppy to character.

Heck, Sam could have made the blood sigils anyway, after he finished putting up the warding, you know just in case. Why did it not come up until Dean gets on the boat shouting about them being screwed and Sam is like what about banishing so Dean can say "No don't bother too many!" What? Since when.

They have Jack actually say "If the angels get in, they will take me and kill all of you" which was really stupid when they just showed him being able to control putting angels in stasis and making them kill themselves literally a few hours before that. No reason at all why Jack shouldn't try to do it again, except plot...

I actually find the "let's let 'em all in and we'll kill them" fights like the one in "Jus In Bello" to be more contrived... during that whole fight in that episode, I wasn't thinking "oh, smart idea to use a taped exorcism." I was thinking "no way would everyone in there get out of fighting all of those demons without someone getting killed" and I put it up to Dean plot armor (since it was his plan) that that is what happened.

Yes, Jack can sometimes make his powers work, but with what Jack was saying, he was obviously scared... and we have seen that even in the best of times his powers don't always work exactly like he wants them to - as with the security guard. So a scared Jack fighting angel radio and his own emotions using his powers... I personally wouldn't like those potential odds. Just my opinion there. And hand to hand combat isn't even supposed to work on angels: example Dean hitting an unassuming Cupid and almost breaking his hand - I blame Carver for any LOLcanon changes there starting in season 9. And Sam and Dean taking a beating isn't the problem - it would be the angels using their heads and using the finger knock out - one to hold the person, another to put them to sleep - which might keep the sigils from being used. And once the warding was down, couldn't the angels come from almost anywhere? How would Sam and Dean know when all of the angels were inside and within range to employ the sigil? As I said above, it would only take one angel grabbing someone as they are banished to mess up the plan. Once the warding was down, the angels also could go into stealth mode - like Castiel did in season 6 - and Sam and Dean wouldn't even know they were there... they could mess up the sigils and Sam and Dean would be potentially screwed. Or again grab someone, even if the banishing sigil was deployed, potentially taking him or her with them.

So if the show wants to go back to angels are actually scary and the Winchesters can't necessarily fight an organized whole bunch of them using a couple of sigils and a couple of angel blades on short notice while not wanting to chance that civilian's life or the angels getting Jack if they have another option, even if it's a little crazy, then I'm actually all for that, myself. But your miles may vary.

2 hours ago, scribe95 said:

So a banishing sigil that has never failed before wasn't a better tactic? Or Jack using powers he used to kill two angels a scene or two before wasn't a better tactic? Of course they were and are. Not to mention Sam and Dean have killed an angel or two before in close combat. So if the first two things don't kill them all then they can resort to the angel blade.

All of that was ignored simply to rush into the dreamwalking thing - a tactic that had never even been tried before. 

But the banishing sigil tactic has failed as was mentioned above in "The Song Remains the Same." As I mentioned above, unless angel stealth mode is affected by the angels losing their wings - which I don't think it is - how would Sam and Dean even know the angels were in the room or where?

[gonzosgirrl]

They always seem to have holy oil in the trunk and Dean had the duffle when he ran in. Why not surround themselves with a ring of it? It contained the arch-angel Gabriel, so it should've been able to keep regular angels out. Thus far only Metatron was able to douse its flames. It could've bought them time to open the rift properly, but having it go sideways was necessary for the plot, so they just made it so.

On another note, when the two winged-douchebags kidnapped Kaia, I legitimately thought they were demons. It's pretty bad that you can't tell them apart these days without a program.

Edited December 11, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

They always seem to have holy oil in the trunk and Dean had the duffle when he ran in. Why not surround themselves with a ring of it? It contained the arch-angel Gabriel, so it should've been able to keep regular angels out. Thus far only Metatron was able to douse its flames. It could've bought them time to open the rift properly, but having it go sideways was necessary for the plot, so they just made it so.

On another note, when the two winged-douchebags kidnapped Kaia, I legitimately thought they were demons. It's pretty bad that you can't tell them apart these days without a program.

Oh man. I totally forgot about the holy oil. But let's be real. Dean probably just left the Holy Oil in the trunk of poor Baby, who is there, all alone. I mean I'm betting some demons or angels are going to scavenge her stuff. How much stuff is in the car that might be handy for anyone else?  Can you tell I am extremely worried about Baby :(.

[auntvi]

8 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm not a hundred percent, but I'm guessing it might've been the power of opening the doorway reverberating outward. 

ETA: Like a door being slammed open and somone on the other side being smashed between the wall and the door...uh, not sure that made it any clearer, sorry.

Thanks! I was thinking along those lines, but couldn't find the words this morning.

[Casseiopeia]

43 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Oh man. I totally forgot about the holy oil. But let's be real. Dean probably just left the Holy Oil in the trunk of poor Baby, who is there, all alone. I mean I'm betting some demons or angels are going to scavenge her stuff. How much stuff is in the car that might be handy for anyone else?  Can you tell I am extremely worried about Baby :(.

Jody will save her!

Dean remembered to take the Death potion to a ghost hunt but he didn't bring Holy Oil while being pursued by angels?

[FlickChick]

8 hours ago, sarthaz said:

snip...

Which does bring something up for me.  Something's changed this season with either the sound mix or with my CW feed.  The music is drowning out dialogue for me.  I'm missing more little nuggets than every before.  Not just this episode but all over the place.  I had to replay Jack's response to Dean 3 times and finally turned on Closed Captioning to see what he was saying.  I know the show's been on a long time, but I'm not losing my hearing yet.

Yes, it has changed - and it has nothing to do with the CW feed. The music is louder, more present during dialog which results in missing key conversations. Why? I haven't a clue except that we have "teen angel" on now, so we should cater to the teens' way of watching TV which is a lot of noise most of the time drowning out dialog on a regular basis. There are some shows I don't even attempt to watch without Closed Captions because the music is so loud. This was never a problem for me on Supernatural until Dabb took over completely and he has raised the volume more this year than last. :(

[catrox14]

38 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Dean remembered to take the Death potion to a ghost hunt but he didn't bring Holy Oil while being pursued by angels?

Sorry, I was being snarky, as in given the rest of the stuff they didn't do here, Dean probably wouldn't have the holy oil in his bag...because...reasons...plot. 

40 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Jody will save her!

Heh. I'm waiting for the fandom meltdown when Jody drives the Impala with Donna next to her. LOL But yes you make a good point. I'll bank on Jody saving her!

[Casseiopeia]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sorry, I was being snarky, as in given the rest of the stuff they didn't do here, Dean probably wouldn't have the holy oil in his bag...because...reasons...plot. 

Heh. I'm waiting for the fandom meltdown when Jody drives the Impala with Donna next to her. LOL But yes you make a good point. I'll bank on Jody saving her!

Oh I was agreeing with you.  I realize it was for plot but they bring the holy oil wherever they go but not when angels are chasing them?

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Yes, it has changed - and it has nothing to do with the CW feed. The music is louder, more present during dialog which results in missing key conversations. Why? I haven't a clue except that we have "teen angel" on now, so we should cater to the teens' way of watching TV which is a lot of noise most of the time drowning out dialog on a regular basis. There are some shows I don't even attempt to watch without Closed Captions because the music is so loud. This was never a problem for me on Supernatural until Dabb took over completely and he has raised the volume more this year than last. :(

Yep. The music is more ostentatious than last season. Don't get me wrong. I really LOVED the music during the whole boat scene and the music when Dean and Sam were making their way to where Jack had been and that glorious drone shot was fantastic. But they need to back the music down during dialogue heavy scenes.

Just now, Casseiopeia said:

Oh I was agreeing with you.  I realize it was for plot but they bring the holy oil wherever they go but not when angels are chasing them?

Gotcha. LOL.

[Jeddah]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Oh man. I totally forgot about the holy oil. But let's be real. Dean probably just left the Holy Oil in the trunk of poor Baby, who is there, all alone. I mean I'm betting some demons or angels are going to scavenge her stuff. How much stuff is in the car that might be handy for anyone else?  Can you tell I am extremely worried about Baby :(.

 

51 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Jody will save her!

Dean remembered to take the Death potion to a ghost hunt but he didn't bring Holy Oil while being pursued by angels?

I’m worried about Baby too! I was thinking Cas might find her when he goes looking for the boys, but Jody is closer. Either way, I just want someone to rescue her!

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

 

I’m worried about Baby too! I was thinking Cas might find her when he goes looking for the boys, but Jody is closer. Either way, I just want someone to rescue her!

Cas is still locked up with Asmodeus so at this point, he doesn't even know that they found Jack or vanished :(.  And IF by chance Dean or Sam DID call Cas, then Asmodeus answered the phone and he'll likely be the person who sends his minions after them. I don't trust them with Baby either

All of which brings up a point. Shouldn't Cas' angel radio pick up on these shenanigans?? I mean that would be good to have seen a shot of Cas either hearing the angel radio and realizing they know where Cas is or at least offering an explanation of why he can't. That seems like a plot hole for me. :(

[MysteryGuest]

I don't believe we've ever seen them use the holy oil to keep angels out, have we?  It's used to trap angels in.  Maybe it doesn't work the other way around.  

I don't think Dean had any idea just how many angels there were.  He saw the additional cars pull up, and took off running, realizing he couldn't fight them on his own.  More cars could have shown up after he left.  And maybe there are limits as to how many angels can be sent away with the use of one sigil.  It's normally 2 to 4 angels, not 10 to 12, or possibly more.  They at least discussed the option of using a sigil, so it's not like they somehow forgot they even existed.  But it was ruled out as an option by Dean, whether you accept his reasoning, or not.  And has Jack teleported yet with other people?  If he's just learned to teleport himself, he may not be ready to take along 3 passengers as of yet.  

So while it was convenient to the plot that they couldn't use the tried and true methods of fending off angels, I didn't find myself shaking my head at just how ignorant they were.  They were making spur of the moment decisions, and when Jack said he thought he could open the rift with Kaia's help, that's the option they chose.  Not to mention, that's probably the option they wanted the most so they could get to Mary as quickly as possible.

[gonzosgirrl]

It stands to reason if angels can't step over holy fire to get out, they can't step over it to get in, either. So they make a ring around themselves, same as a salt line, and buy some time for Jack to open the right rift.

Edited December 12, 2017 by gonzosgirrl