S01.E09: Into the Forest I Go

[Miles]

1 minute ago, tpel said:

Terral was totally trying to play Lorca with the "come to the starbase and we'll give you a medal" ploy. And Lorca saw right through him. Presumably Terral chatted with Cornwell and learned her opinion about Lorca's mental state, and even if he didn't, Terral now knows first hand that Lorca is a wild card. Terral can calculate the odds of Lorca obeying an order to go to the starbase, and they're not pretty. So he tried to trick him with a prospective honor. Lorca has many problems, but stupidity isn't one of them.

That certainly would be an explaination for why he might have changed the coordinates for the spore jump.

[xaxat]

I really enjoyed this episode. Both Burnham and Stammets were totally badass in totally different ways. Shady or not (I'm in the not shady camp) Lorca showed why the Federation gave him command of one the fleet's most important assets. (Pre Cornwell diagnosis.) Strong performances from the cast overall.

Interesting that Saru admitted he could not figure out where they were. That would seem to indicate that, not only are they in an alternative universe, they are in a universe that is fundamentally different in terms of its layout. So even if they wanted to go back to Starfleet HQ, they have no idea where it is.

[clyo22]

Am I the only one who cried during this episode? It was awesome. I could feel Stamets' pain during the 130 jumps and it was so obvious he wasn't going to make it (at least that something terrible was going to happen). I was so anxious about Ash. I didn't want him to be Voq but it seems almost certain now. I loved how they portrayed his PTSD. The actor made me believe his distress.

I think  that L'Rell put a part of Voq's mind/brain inside the real Ash Tyler and that the memories of his rape and torture are actually memories of consensual sex between Voq and L'Rell as well as memories of the surgery. I don't like that idea though... I want Ash to be just Ash!

[The Kings Foot]

2 hours ago, paigow said:

Source: Memory Alpha

Commodore Stocker was a 23rd century Starfleet flag officer, who as of 2267 had served his entire career behind a desk.

In 2267, Stocker was assigned as the commanding officer of Federation Starbase 10, to which he was soon transported aboard the USS Enterprise.

Just because regulations allow it, does not make it smart... 

I don't get what you're trying prove. 

 

Im saying that if female admiral is actually from medical service as is implied, then she cannot take command as she would not be a  line officer. 

[Charlesman]

That was a pretty good episode, maybe the best of the first bunch. The 133 jumps were pretty cool, they did a good job on that montage, and the effects were cool.

[tpel]

2 hours ago, xaxat said:

Shady or not (I'm in the not shady camp) Lorca showed why the Federation gave him command of one the fleet's most important assets.

Oh, he's shady alright. But I'm not convinced that he's evil. He manipulated the hell out of everybody this episode, especially Stamets. But why? Some possibilities:

1. He is really MirrorLorca. This explains why he hijacked the final jump. We saw him override the navigation on the final jump, and he said "Let's go home." Maybe home, for him, is the mirror universe.

But I don't quite buy it. He has seemed quite invested in winning the war in our universe. Why would he care so much about that, if he was planning on bailing out on it anyway? Thus, my preferred theory is:

2. He is not MirrorLorca, but he wants to get to a mirror universe. Why? Because that's where he left the Buran. We've now had three people come back from Klingon torture somewhat the worse for wear, but alive. This makes Lorca's story that he killed his entire crew to prevent such a fate increasingly suspect. Yet I do believe he feels guilty about something relating to the Buran. Maybe some spore mishap opened a path into the mirror universe, and they got stuck there.

Yeah, I know this is a bit of a leap. But it's the best I've got :-)

Edited November 13, 2017 by tpel

[marinw]

2 hours ago, tpel said:

That Vulcan Fedaration Admiral... Terral?? Something just seems "off" with this guy, as if he works against what would seem are Federation interests?

I got the same impression. I think Terrel was planning on arresting Lorca for disobeying orders, and just tried to reel him it with an award Lorca may not care that much about. OTOH, Star Trek has a long history of corrupt admirals.

I agree with the other posters that Cornwall getting back to a Starbase in a “Medical Shuttle.” seemed a little WTF.

[Lebanna]

Once again Lorca seemed slightly panicked about sending Burnham into danger, which is weird since they don't seem to have much of a connection. It seems to be a very specific thing, he really, desperately doesn't want her to get hurt or killed, but the rest of the time we don't even really see them together much and certainly it doesn't seem like they have become close personal friends or anything. This episode, he seems almost prepared to delay or damage the mission to keep her safe and as we well know, he certainly won't do that for anyone else. There has to be some kind of secret history or background there that Burnham clearly has no idea about. It was too well spelled out in this episode to just be a coincidence.

I thought that first moment with Lorca where he was getting Stamets all excited about science and other universes was sad. You could tell that they were both thinking - yeah, lots of exciting scientific discoveries, for someone not you, Stamets, who will probably be dead shortly. It's a pity that after surviving all those jumps, Stamets got slightly cocky about his abilities. But he was totally manipulated into it. And the 'You were all polite scientists a few months ago' cracked me up. Not even rude scientists (except Tilly - she's proved that she's a mildly rude scientist). That's about the best description of the Federation since whatever it was Quark used to say about them being basically sentient bottles of root beer. 

This was a fantastic episode. I too was a little disappointed that they haven't brought the Admiral, but at this point all she probably has left to do in this plotline is die or be an inconvenience, so better that she stays behind. I'm really excited about the possibility of them doing some more discovering for a few episodes. And this is a great way of bringing back some species that are not discovered yet at this point in cannon - 'Its a different universe! We probably don't even have those!' and of course, eventually some old faces, if they ever so choose. This is exciting. Because whatever happens, clearly Discovery and her discoveries are not going to ever exist on the record in the Prime Universe, one way or the other. So Lorca or Stamets or whoever is never really getting that medal.

Edited November 13, 2017 by Lebanna

[Sonny]

I actually wondered if Stamets would be the one to try and jump into a parallel universe or wants to become one with the spores or something, and I would have expected orders to take some time off before he would be allowed more spore travel - but nah.... just one more jump...
Lorca changing the coordinates is intriguing. He's an interesting character, as are all of them, except for the Klingons

So I'm torn. I liked much of the series so far. The serialization and character development are well done and really pay off in this episode, but then some of the storylines and execution just annoy me. Most of the time I'm no big fan of alternate universes and time travel, though I know it can be done well. Here it seems the story leads to one or both, if all the obvious foreshadowing isn't supposed to point us in the wrong direction. It just seems so heavy handed. I don't trust them to handle it well.

Add all the nitpicks already mentioned by other posters like the blinking, beeping and speaking sensors they had to activate secretly on the Klingon ship, all the stuff in the previous two episodes that took me out of the story and just had me rolling my eyes, and I'm not certain that I want to keep watching.
I guess it depends on the execution, if they manage to at least keep it consistant and logical within itself, and if the other storylines are good enough to keep me interested it might be enough. Well, we will see. They resolved the other cliffhangers nicely and might surprise me.

[starri]

2 hours ago, clyo22 said:

Am I the only one who cried during this episode?

No, you weren't.  I'm going to make myself a bit vulnerable here, but I was thinking a lot about a thirteen year old, nerdy, gay Trekkie who doesn't have to write himself into the future any more because he's already there.  The whole thing was powerful in a way I didn't really expect.

[CanadaPhil]

16 hours ago, Lebanna said:

Once again Lorca seemed slightly panicked about sending Burnham into danger, which is weird since they don't seem to have much of a connection. It seems to be a very specific thing, he really, desperately doesn't want her to get hurt or killed, but the rest of the time we don't even really see them together much and certainly it doesn't seem like they have become close personal friends or anything. This episode, he seems almost prepared to delay or damage the mission to keep her safe and as we well know, he certainly won't do that for anyone else. There has to be some kind of secret history or background there that Burnham clearly has no idea about. It was too well spelled out in this episode to just be a coincidence.

Yes, and it appeared as if Lorca was not in the mood to back down until Michael turned it back on him in front of the eyes of the whole bridge crew with the "unless this is about me?" line.

I didn't want to get into my whole take on Lorca before we made it to this point... which is to say we are now in an alternate reality or mirror Universe or whatever territory? There is no denying that they are no longer where they were... and this is  not "Cornwell's Lorca".

And to add to poster T'Pel's thoughts I do NOT think this Lorca is EVIL either. He was and is clearly being driven by some goal that made him feel that failure was not an option. I see him as someone who is having to make very hard choices for the "greater good".... as he sees it.

My take is that Mirror Lorca witnessed something very terrible on the other side where perhaps the Mirror Klingons got the better of humanity with very catastrophic consequences. The Burnham on his side was more than likely his First Officer, who he had greatly admired and respected.... and that Burnham was probably killed.

This is something he probably did not want to see happen again and this Lorca probably feels he needs to have "our" Burnham back on his team again so to speak. 

When Mirror Lorca found himself transported to "our" Universe ? (I don't know what to call it??.. haha) he made the decision to "fake it till he makes it" and to seek out the alternate Burnham who apparently now had nothhing but prison to look forward to anyway.

But who knows!?.. hahahaha.

I am soooooo into this series now and just want to see where it goes. 

Edited November 14, 2017 by CanadaPhil

[tpel]

19 minutes ago, Lebanna said:

Once again Lorca seemed slightly panicked about sending Burnham into danger, which is weird since they don't seem to have much of a connection. It seems to be a very specific thing, he really, desperately doesn't want her to get hurt or killed, but the rest of the time we don't even really see them together much and certainly it doesn't seem like they have become close personal friends or anything. This episode, he seems almost prepared to delay or damage the mission to keep her safe and as we well know, he certainly won't do that for anyone else. There has to be some kind of secret history or background there that Burnham clearly has no idea about. It was too well spelled out in this episode to just be a coincidence.

Yeah . . . what's up with that? Lorca recruited her, ostensibly because she is useful: her skills, her attitude, etc. We've seen him be quite willing to risk his assets -- for instance, the tardigrade and Stamets. But not her. I agree that it is not personal affection that's holding him back. He likes her well enough, but not that much. It could be that, as CanadaPhil suggests, he is MirrorLorca and knew her in the other universe. Or maybe it goes back to her triggering the war; there seems to be something highly significant about that time, about 7 months ago. Perhaps somehow that caused a breach between the universes? 

[CanadaPhil]

43 minutes ago, tpel said:

...there seems to be something highly significant about that time, about 7 months ago. Perhaps somehow that caused a breach between the universes? 

I feel there is also something of significance there.

I believe in the "Context is for Kings" episode there is a moment where Burnham is trying to explain why she is no good to anyone and that her actions triggered a war. Lorca is having none of it!

I forget his exact response to Michael right now but its something like "this was already predicted"... or "pre-ordained" or something along those lines.

With the benefit of hindsight it now sort of seems that he had already seen the start of this war... in another reality.

Edited November 13, 2017 by CanadaPhil

[MissLucas]

Well, this episode had me on tenterhooks throughout. I was so worried Stamets would die or Ash go full Klingon.

We got three references in this episode alone that Ash spent 7 months (or 227 days) as a Klingon prisoner. This is clearly how he remembers it - and in his memories L'Rell was there for at least 97 days. Neither of those numbers compute with what we know about her whereabouts after the Battle of the Binary stars.

I would have preferred Ash to be Ash and the show dealing with a male victim of rape* and that being his only plot but that ship has sailed.... or rather jumped quite some time ago. Still his trauma and memories (whether fake or real) are pretty harrowing. And this point I'm starting to wonder if he's really Voq turned into Ash. What if he's Ash but the matriarchs somehow managed to embed Voq's consciousness into his mind where it's stashed away until L'Rell manages to trigger it? That way the show could have its cake and eat it - i.e. make Ash a sleeper agent but one that could be saved so that Burnham won't have her heart broken into 1000 fragments. (His timeline still doesn't make a lick of sense because he would have had to survive until L'Rell executed her plan - i.e. for six months. Unless she wasn't always around Voq but had started her plan just after the Battle of the Binary stars - but it would have required her to be constantly on the move.)

Lorca remains a magnificent bastard - the way he manipulated Stamets to do those jumps? Awesome. Also awesome: Burnham and the Admiral and I guess we have to add L'Rell who's still playing her long con.

*I remember that Farscape actually went there too - but Crichton just added it to the tons of torture he had already been carrying around anyway.

Edited November 13, 2017 by MissLucas

[starri]

I'm still unsure about how Ash and Voq relate to each other ("So...so...Ash and Voq...are the same person?")  I'm having a hard time parsing if there actually is/was an Ash Tyler who Voq has been superimposed upon, or if he, in his sleep agent state, is interpreting his memories about being turned human as torture.  I kind of hope it's the former.

Either way, Shazad Latif is acting the hell out of it.

Excellent.  Now.  Do we think there may be some kind of connection between Ash and Voq?

[Emily Thrace]

18 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I have know idea what to make of what happened with Tyler.  Part of me is down with the theory that he is really Voq, but if that ends up being the case, it seems like he no longer has his memories?  Either way, L'Rella clearly has done something to him and I'm curious to see where this goes.  Thought Shazad Latif did a great job to the point that I almost hope he is simply just Tyler, and they explore him having PTSD and being a torture and likely rape victim.

Yeah this is kinda why I hope there is some other explanation. Even its a Stockholm syndrome violent relationship. The story of Ash Tyler s actually braver and more interesting than Voq.

5 hours ago, The Kings Foot said:

I don't get what you're trying prove. 

 

Im saying that if female admiral is actually from medical service as is implied, then she cannot take command as she would not be a  line officer. 

 

Starfleet isn't the US navy though. Its more like NASA where everyone is ranked but being a Lieutenant in the command stream doesn't mean you  out rank a lieutenant in the science division.   As was pointed out Troi commanded the Enterprise at certain points. When Paris pointed out he outranks Torres it because he was made lieutenant first not that he wore red. In fact Tuvok outranked Paris despite the fact that he was security.   They made a point that Janeway was a science officer.  I don't think Starfleet works that way. They've always been more about straight ranks than specific lines. Which makes sense since its primarily a scientific organization. You wouldn't want a command only made up of line officers you would want them to be scientists and doctors too.

[tpel]

3 hours ago, starri said:

I'm still unsure about how Ash and Voq relate to each other ("So...so...Ash and Voq...are the same person?")  I'm having a hard time parsing if there actually is/was an Ash Tyler who Voq has been superimposed upon, or if he, in his sleep agent state, is interpreting his memories about being turned human as torture.  I kind of hope it's the former.

Either way, Shazad Latif is acting the hell out of it.

Excellent.  Now.  Do we think there may be some kind of connection between Ash and Voq?

Love the Buffy shout-out! :-)  [Is everyone here very stoned?]

In previous episodes, I wasn't always convinced by the portrayal of Tyler, but I agree that in this one Latif nailed it. I also want to give props to Cornwell. Counseling Tyler, while gravely injured and fending off attacking Klingons with a phaser? Badass.  And it worked! She figured out what to say to him to get him to tune in enough to be useful.

[xaxat]

7 hours ago, tpel said:

Oh, he's shady alright. But I'm not convinced that he's evil.

You're right. I change my opinion to "Shady but not evil."

One small detail I really liked was when Lorca put in his eye drops before ordering the torpedo barrage so he could watch The Ship of the Dead burn.

[statsgirl]

What was Lorca's damage that he needs eye drops?  And why is it that sometimes he's sensitive to light, and not others?

I'm hoping that Ash is not Voq.  I could buy in TOS that Klingons could be disguised as humans but those were the days when John Colicos added a Genghis Khan mustache and eyebrows and was suddenly transported into being a Klingon.

15 hours ago, starri said:

We’ve seen a woefully underprepared Troi take command in an emergency because she was the most senior officer. The only person we’ve seen who’s outranked Cornwell is Admiral Terral. 

Even if she didn’t assume direct command, she presumably could declare Lorca medically unfit, and then it would pass to Saru. 

In the final ST:TNG episode, All Good Things, Picard jumps back and forth between the past and the future.  One of the trips to the future lands him on the ship that Beverly Crusher is captaining (after their divorce IIRC).

[Zuleikha]

I'm glad that IMDB lied to me and Cornwell is not dead. Yay! I am bummed that she got sent away with a nonsensical plot device handwave and will not be part of the trapped Discovery. She had a lot of potential as a character, and I think she would have been nice to have.

I enjoy the show, and I intend to keep watching it, but I think it's overall arc building is very lacking. Why exactly is there a war with the Klingons anyway? (no, seriously... Burnham killed T'Kuvna but how many of the Klingon houses cared about him anyway? And his core followers were left starving and abandoned on the Ship of the Dead until Kol remembered it had useful cloaking technology... so which Houses were fighting the Federation? and why? And what did Burnham's actions really have to do with any of it?) Discovery was so interestingly sketchy in the original episodes, but its only secret was the spore drive and that Lorca himself is a bit shady? Who are the bridge characters and are we ever going to get to know them?

It almost feels like two shows were smushed together, and the showrunners haven't quite figured out how to blend them. One of them is simply Burnham's story about her development as a human-raised-Vulcan-refinding-her-humanity. The other story is about how the scientists of the ship Discovery became fierce warriors under their fraught and tense partnership with Lorca. But we're getting about half of each. Maybe this reset will help.

Shazad Latif did make me interested in Ash Tyler for the first time, right as we get a clear signal that he is indeed Voq somehow. I'm guessing Ash Tyler is a fake persona and that L'rell has a some kind of phrase or gesture that will unlock Voq. In a pre-Internet era, though, I think this would be an amazing twist. But I don't mind that fan sleuthing has (probably) revealed it early. 

Edited November 15, 2017 by Zuleikha

[marinw]

L'Rell might be excatly where she wants to be: on a Federation Starship. Maybe Ash will break her out of confinement at some point.

[starri]

According to After Trek, the writers did seriously consider make penetrating the "invisibility screen" (+1 TOS terminology) require 525,600 spore jumps, but the number was too absurdly high for them to justify.  So instead, they settled on 133 are an homage to the outstanding Battlestar Galactica episode "33."  Which this reminds me a lot of, now that I'm thinking about it.

[legaleagle53]

18 hours ago, mrspidey said:

Which it totally isn't.  The deviations from canon are far too numerous and big.

Not that that really matters.  STD is where canon comes to die.

[CanadaPhil]

48 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

Not that that really matters.  STD is where canon comes to die.

Lol-d-lol.

I'm cueing up the Price is Right better luck next time diddy for you...

Don-don-duh-daoooow....

Bow-owwwwwwww.

Thanks fer playin.

[CanadaPhil]

17 hours ago, marinw said:

....

I agree with the other posters that Cornwall getting back to a Starbase in a “Medical Shuttle.” seemed a little WTF.

I have the feeling that there was more exposition around this plot point in earlier drafts and then the Showrunners decided to make a few changes.

I say this because originally, the mid-season break was supposed to happen 2 episodes back (I believe) and then CBS extended the mid season break to Ep. 9 this past Sunday.

So I assume that the mid-season break was originally meant to be the Episode with Cornwell's double-cross and abduction??

Ep. 9 almost feels like it was originally meant to be an END of season finale?

Edited November 14, 2017 by CanadaPhil

[MissLucas]

I assume this is not the last time we've seen Admiral Cornwall. She knows about L'Rell's wish to defect (though she may not know the real reasons) and she knows about Lorca's state of mind. She's too valuable a player (plot-wise) to just be dropped at this point.

It's possible that certain plot points ended on the cutting room floor though - the episode was pretty busy. I for once would have liked to have seen the first meeting between Lorca and L'Rell. Even without intel from Admiral Cornwall about L'Rell there are lots of questions she should be asked and I thought it weird that interrogating her was not on top of Lorca's list of priorities.

Edited November 14, 2017 by MissLucas

[tpel]

I would have loved to have seen Lorca reacting in-person to Cornwell after her rescue. This episode cemented to me what a masterful manipulator he is, so it would be neat to see what strategy he took with her, or whether she could prompt a genuine non-agenda-driven response from him. But Cornwell has had plenty of time to think during her captivity, and she may have assessed that she is not safe on Discovery and requested to get away quickly. If she hasn't yet briefed Command about Lorca's mental state, she might be right.

Speaking of genuine non-agenda-driven responses, I get the sense that we haven't seen a whole lot of those from Lorca. It is hard to know for sure, since we don't know exactly what his agenda is. But here are three moments that I think are purely him, not him playing a role to engender responses in others:

1. When he woke up and held a phaser in Cornwell's face, then apologized. What he said later on in the scene may have been an attempt to placate her, but in that moment he wasn't faking anything.
2. When he expressed just how very much he doesn't give a damn about the gormagander :-)
3. When he medicated his eyes before ordering the torpedoes to blow up the sarcophagus ship -- he totally wanted to watch that sucker explode!

Anything else?

[Irishmaple]

His bond with Tyler. There’s definitely agenda there now but on the Klingon vessel, Lorca stuck with the Starfleet prisoner because he trusted him and didn’t want to leave him behind.

[marinw]

I wanted to see a Cornwall/T'Rell reunion. Maybe in the next batch of episodes.

Edited November 14, 2017 by marinw

[CanadaPhil]

20 minutes ago, tpel said:

Anything else?

This may not fit what you are asking, but I just wanted to add that I luv all the moments where Jason Isaacs is not saying a damn word but is emoting so much just with his eyes and gaze.

Such as the moment immediately tied to your third point...

Lorca is not gloating over his victory but turns as if to address Burnham on her entering the bridge... It's an amazing look... with what appears to be a dozen different feelings being rolled into one silent gaze of acknowledgement mixed in with a sense of pride perhaps?

You can almost sense Lorca saying.. "Yeah... thats the Burnham I've always known... Yer a mess but I just know you gave as good as you got". 

Its as if its a moment he had wanted to share with a "different" Burnham, but that opportunity had been taken  away?

[LittleIggy]

If Tyler is Voq, wouldn’t the computer in sick bay pick up on his DNA being different?

[CanadaPhil]

26 minutes ago, marinw said:

I wanted to see a Cornwall/T'Rell reunion. Maybe is the next batch of episodes.

I am sure she will somehow be a recurring character in one form or another. 

I must confess that the guilty pleasure side of me would luv to see ship's hulls emblazoned with Globes pierced with Dagger emblems when they return!

Maybe there is an "Empress Cornwell".... hahaha

:D

[MissLucas]

1 hour ago, LittleIggy said:

If Tyler is Voq, wouldn’t the computer in sick bay pick up on his DNA being different?

That's why I stick to the theory that Ash is not Voq but has Voq's consciousness implanted. No genetic tampering necessary. It would add another layer of violation to his torture (mind-rape). As for the how: we've already seen twists on the Vulcan mind-meld, pseudo-Pandora and the Tardigrade and Stamets surfing the spore highway so Klingons experimenting with mind-transplants does not sound too crazy.

[CanadaPhil]

49 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

That's why I stick to the theory that Ash is not Voq but has Voq's consciousness implanted. No genetic tampering necessary. It would add another layer of violation to his torture (mind-rape). As for the how: we've already seen twists on the Vulcan mind-meld, pseudo-Pandora and the Tardigrade and Stamets surfing the spore highway so Klingons experimenting with mind-transplants does not sound too crazy.

Yeah... good points.

We are also now a century past Phlox and Enterprise and even then he could pretty much spot a fake anything a light year away! 

[tennisgurl]

That was an awesome finale, and made me super pumped to see what happens next in January! This show started off rather clunky, but I think when Michael got onto the Discovery onward, things have been getting better and better and the cast and characters have really started to work well. Its definitely different than much of Trek, but it also has enough Trek staples to show its still a a prt of the same series. Its certainly darker than most people associate with classic Trek, but the rest of the series, going back to TOS, was never all happy rainbows and butterflies either. 

If Ash is Voq, he must be some kind of sleeper agent with false, human memories, because no way could a Klingon like Voq so accurately show signs of PTSD, especially around other Klingons. I like the theory that Voqs contentiousness is inside his head, and it was put in during his torture, and its just now coming out, and will eventually try to take over Ashs personality. That means they can have their Klingon twist while also keeping Ash the character. I thought his PTSD was really well done (especially considering how strong of a front he has put up) and I honestly find the story of Ash dealing with being a survivor or months of torture and rape to be much more interesting than any alien conspiracy theories. 

Damn it, as soon as Paul started talking about not jumping anymore and spending time with Culmets, I knew he was in trouble! The two of them were great this week (although Culmets probably shouldn't be his doctor), and that kiss made me all happy inside. Trek has certainly come a long way since Whoopie Goldburg had to guilt trip the writers of TNG to simply acknowledge that LGBTQ people actually exist! I also liked his interactions with Lorca, and trying to figure out how much was real, and how much was manipulation. Its always hard to tell with Lorca, if its just manipulation or earnestness. Maybe he did really want to use this tech for exploration, but he ALSO needed Paul to get behind his new plan. I do think it was nice when he said he wanted to give his medal to Paul, and I think there was something sincere in that, even if there was even more manipulation. Still, it was nice seeing them more on the same page. 

Speaking of Lorca, I thought he might know what area of space he wanted to get dumped into, but he seemed really surprised by where they went, so who knows? Also, I loved Lorca putting in his eye drops so he can fully see the explosions! He needs a full screen view of those bastards exploding. 

Yea, Cornwall is still alive! She was badly hurt this week, but was still kickass, firing off phasers and talking Ash out of his PTSD breakdown. Glad she made it out before...whatever happened happened. 

Could we have ended up in the...mirror universe?!?! Maybe trying into that creepy Paul reflection we saw earlier this season? 

[piequinn35]

On 11/12/2017 at 8:42 PM, dwmarch said:

The Starfleet brig on the Discovery isn't much better, there are no guards in it. Walk up to a prisoner and confess your secrets, no one minds.

Maybe outside the door or they don't need guards because  they have super computers, not anyone can enter the brig without clearance, but Ash can bec, he is head of security.

It's basically confirmed that Ash is Voq, those memories were just planted as a reason why he was a prisoner and still alive for 7-8 months so star fleet will have a sympathy to him. L'Rell could have died with Kol but she survived coz she is a major part of Voq's play.

[tpel]

4 hours ago, Irishmaple said:

His bond with Tyler. There’s definitely agenda there now but on the Klingon vessel, Lorca stuck with the Starfleet prisoner because he trusted him and didn’t want to leave him behind.

Absolutely, I agree. Whatever his damage, machinations, and possible other-universe origins, there is a part of him that wants to look out for junior officers, particularly one who had lost his captain around the same time Lorca lost his crew. Saving Tyler was important to him.

Other reactions on the prison ship also seemed genuine: the flinch when the Klingon guard stomped the face of that poor prisoner, attacking Mudd for spying on them.

4 hours ago, CanadaPhil said:

Lorca is not gloating over his victory but turns as if to address Burnham on her entering the bridge... It's an amazing look... with what appears to be a dozen different feelings being rolled into one silent gaze of acknowledgement mixed in with a sense of pride perhaps?

I've got to watch that again!

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

I also liked his interactions with Lorca, and trying to figure out how much was real, and how much was manipulation. Its always hard to tell with Lorca, if its just manipulation or earnestness. Maybe he did really want to use this tech for exploration, but he ALSO needed Paul to get behind his new plan. I do think it was nice when he said he wanted to give his medal to Paul, and I think there was something sincere in that, even if there was even more manipulation. Still, it was nice seeing them more on the same page. 

Using the truth in deceptive or manipulative ways is a specialty of Lorca's. In fact, I bet most of what he says is true on some level, it's just that that's not why he says it. 

[tennisgurl]

I chuckled at how everyone on the ship just kind of goes with Lorca`s clear and obvious ignoring of orders, and even enjoys it a bit. When he was ordered to come home and started his "well, it sure would suck if we couldn't make it in time...."  everyone else just started nodding, like "yeah, so many unfortunate things could happen to keep us from following these orders..." *wink*

Of course, ignoring orders from Star Fleet to run off and do something probably dangerous and pigheaded because the Captain thinks its the Right Thing to Do, and then everything getting rewarded for it, is classic Trek in any incarnation. 

Edited November 14, 2017 by tennisgurl

[marinw]

Dr. Culber must have examined Ash and cleared him for duty. Or maybe not, as Culber treats his own boyfriend and yet doesn’t notice how Stamets using the spore drive is affecting him. No wonder the Admiral was ordered away in a “Medical Shuttle” which I assume is some sort of warp-capable space ambulance. I like Hugh Culber as a character but I’m wondering about his efficacy as chief medical officer.

[MissLucas]

I just realized something else: does Starfleet have those super-duper algorithms to detect cloaked Klingon vessels? Lorca tells the panicked (He! that was a nice manipulative dig to get the crew on his side) Admiral that they're currently refining the data and that the fleet should get it 'in just under 11 hours'. I assume the jump that sent Discovery down the spore rabbit-hole occurred earlier so Starfleet does not have the data yet and the Klingon fleet is on full attack mode, oopsie.

Lorca definitely looked away from the big bang to check on Burnham - he then left the bridge. His reluctance to send her on the mission was odd. For whatever reason (and that is a man who always has a reason) she's important to him. More important than Tyler who was told a couple of episodes back that he needn't return at all without Burnham.

[maddie965]

When Michael convinced Lorca that she was the best person for the mission, I think I saw some real emotions in that beautiful face of his. Sorrow. Regret. Concern. I think that he really cares for her, like a father/mentor/Picard-like captain would. Why is that, I have no idea.

I might be living in another Universe myself, because the Ash/Voq thing sounds totally crazy to me. Where did that theory came from again? I don't read interviews or articles about Discovery, so all I know is what I see on the episodes (and I do skip a lot of Klingon scenes) and what is discussed here. Why on Earth would Ash be anyone else? I adore the character, I adore his story, his memories are incredibly powerful and terrifying., his relationship with Michael is intriguing, to say the least. Why would they throw it all away and tell us he's not Ash, he's some stupid Klingon no one cares about? (Sorry, I really don't care about any of them.) Now, that Klingon woman certainly did something to  Ash that we're not aware of. She has some level of control on him. Maybe I could accept the theory that he has the consciousness of a Klingon in his head. As long as he can fight it and still get to be Ash, I'll be OK.

As for Stamets, I want to hug him and protect him for any harm, now and forever. Please don't die. I need you in my ship.

Great season so far! I'm so in love with Discovery it's not even funny. I want to go to sleep and wake up in January.

Edited November 15, 2017 by maddie965

[paigow]

17 minutes ago, maddie965 said:

 

As for Stamets, I want to hug him and protect him for any harm, now and forever. Please don't die. I need you in my ship.

 

If Discovery never returns to the TOS Prime Universe, he will have plot armour...if they make it back, he must die [or lose his spore connectivity]...otherwise, Scotty would have to tell Kirk: "We canna get more power from this fungus"

Edited November 15, 2017 by paigow

[Emily Thrace]

40 minutes ago, maddie965 said:

When Michael convinced Lorca that she was the best person for the mission, I think I saw some real emotions in that beautiful face of his. Sorrow. Regret. Concern. I think that he really cares for her, like a father/mentor/Picard-like captain would. Why is that, I have no idea.

Yeah maybe its just me re-reading Harry Potter but I wonder if the connection might be with Michael's human parent's. They have given us no information on them and it wouldn't be that odd for him to have known one or both of them. Hell if he was serving with them at the base the was obliterated by Klingons it would help explain why he hates them so much. It seems like Michael pretty small when the attack happened Lorca could have been a family friend and she simply doesn't remember. Or he could have been part of the rescue team and she's blocked it out.  The way he was acting was very protective and paternal which tracks more with  him knowing her a child then them being lovers in another universe.  Although I suppose he might have mentioned something like that in the episode where Sarek was lost.

[Zuleikha]

Where did that theory came from again? I don't read interviews or articles about Discovery, so all I know is what I see on the episodes (and I do skip a lot of Klingon scenes) and what is discussed here.

It's mostly meta. Fans noticed that the actor credited for Voq doesn't seem to actually exist and that his name is connected to Shazad Latif's full name. It's canon that Klingons can be altered to impersonate humans, and L'Rell warned Voq that her House could do unbelievable things that would cost him everything. On top of that, Ash's story is impossible. The length of time he was supposed to be on L'Rell's torture ship intersects with the time we know L'Rell was elsewhere with Voq. Voq also was set up as an important character, but he disappeared mysteriously from the story as soon as Ash appeared.

[paigow]

7 hours ago, Emily Thrace said:

It seems like Michael pretty small when the attack happened Lorca could have been a family friend and she simply doesn't remember. Or he could have been part of the rescue team and she's blocked it out.

Sarek or Burnham would just have to do a service record retrieval on Lorca....

[tpel]

How's this for a wacky explanation for the connection between Lorca and Michael? Lorca is actually MirrorLorca, and in the mirror universe, he was Michael's mentor. Specifically, he supported her in committing mutiny against MirrorGeorgiou. It seems that people in the mirror universe have personalities that flip around a fulcrum, such that some mirror characters are not hugely different from their prime characters (e.g., Spock) while others go to the polar opposite extreme from their prime counterparts. PrimeGeorgiou was a wonderful, idealistic human being; MirrorGeorgiou = the exact opposite. And she is descended from Empress Hoshi Sato, so she's got power . . . ;-)

[Emily Thrace]

3 hours ago, tpel said:

How's this for a wacky explanation for the connection between Lorca and Michael? Lorca is actually MirrorLorca, and in the mirror universe, he was Michael's mentor. Specifically, he supported her in committing mutiny against MirrorGeorgiou. It seems that people in the mirror universe have personalities that flip around a fulcrum, such that some mirror characters are not hugely different from their prime characters (e.g., Spock) while others go to the polar opposite extreme from their prime counterparts. PrimeGeorgiou was a wonderful, idealistic human being; MirrorGeorgiou = the exact opposite. And she is descended from Empress Hoshi Sato, so she's got power . . . ;-)

A couple of issues with that. Archer was still an Admiral when Kirk was at the Academy so Georgiou could at most be Hoshi's daughter and even that would mean Georgiou was born when Hoshi would have been at the very end of her child bearing years. Also Hoshi was Japanese and Georgiou is Chinese.

[maddie965]

13 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

It's mostly meta. Fans noticed that the actor credited for Voq doesn't seem to actually exist and that his name is connected to Shazad Latif's full name. It's canon that Klingons can be altered to impersonate humans, and L'Rell warned Voq that her House could do unbelievable things that would cost him everything. On top of that, Ash's story is impossible. The length of time he was supposed to be on L'Rell's torture ship intersects with the time we know L'Rell was elsewhere with Voq. Voq also was set up as an important character, but he disappeared mysteriously from the story as soon as Ash appeared.

Thank you so much for the explanation. So it's mostly a fan theory, based on observation and inconsistencies in the episodes. I get it. I do hope you're wrong, though! Sometimes we give the authors too much credit, and mistakes are just mistakes...

Edited November 15, 2017 by maddie965

[tpel]

41 minutes ago, Emily Thrace said:

A couple of issues with that. Archer was still an Admiral when Kirk was at the Academy so Georgiou could at most be Hoshi's daughter and even that would mean Georgiou was born when Hoshi would have been at the very end of her child bearing years. Also Hoshi was Japanese and Georgiou is Chinese.

Yeah, I know, the Hoshi-to-Georgiou connection is a bit tenuous :-)  Michelle Yeoh is Malaysian (of Chinese heritage), so the writers could fudge it, but would probably be better off not doing so. I'm not sure I understand the timing problem, though maybe it turns on details of the Enterprise episode that I've forgotten. I know Enterprise takes place about 90 years before Disco, so I would think that might permit 3 or 4 generations to pass . . . unless there was some time travel that I'm forgetting . . . which there totally could be!

My general point, though, is agreeing with your previous observation that the vibe between Lorca and Michael is more paternal or mentor-like, rather than romantic. It could also be pragmatic, but in a bigger way than most of Lorca's pragmatism -- like he knows he needs her for his endgame (whatever that is) and needs to keep her safe until then.

[legaleagle53]

15 hours ago, tpel said:

Yeah, I know, the Hoshi-to-Georgiou connection is a bit tenuous :-)  Michelle Yeoh is Malaysian (of Chinese heritage), so the writers could fudge it, but would probably be better off not doing so. I'm not sure I understand the timing problem, though maybe it turns on details of the Enterprise episode that I've forgotten. I know Enterprise takes place about 90 years before Disco, so I would think that might permit 3 or 4 generations to pass . . . unless there was some time travel that I'm forgetting . . . which there totally could be!

More like a full 100 years before STD, and it would depend on your definition of "generation." Remember that presumably by the mid-22nd Century of ENT, human lifespans have already increased to well above 100, possibly to at least 120, and considering that even in our own time, it's quite common for women to give birth in their late 30s and early 40s, it's entirely possible that the term "generation" could refer to a period of at least 50 years or more, as opposed to the present-day definition of "roughly 20-25 years."  In other words, by the time of STD (2256), only a couple of "generations" may have passed since the Mirror Universe first intersected with the Prime Universe in about 2158.

Edited November 16, 2017 by legaleagle53