S07.E11: Great Again

[iMonrey]

OK so we're doing this.

1. Murder House - the original is almost always the best and this was the most cohesive in terms of story.

2. Asylum - crazy as all get out, but that sort of fits a show about an asylum, right? Everyone on top of their game too.

3. Hotel - just for the sheer scenery chewing, camp and male eye candy. This is probably the only other one I'd ever re-watch after the first two.

4. Cult? I'd maybe rank this fourth only because it had a more coherent and consistent narrative than the last four seasons.

5. Freak Show - really awful but saved by Finn Whitrock's Dandy and Frances Conroy as his mum.

6. Coven - this had literally nothing to offer. A narrative mess with a sadly underutilized Evan Peters.

7. Roanoke - I'd put this in a tie with Coven. It had an ambitious premise but utterly failed in execution. The first half of the season was utterly pointless.

[LoneHaranguer]

2 hours ago, Dobian said:

2  Coven - I know most people rate this one kind of low but for some reason it grabbed me.  And Kathy Bates was terrific.

I liked it too, but it's hard to ignore some pieces of pretty bad writing and acting in what I would otherwise consider a first-rate season.

3 hours ago, shedevil1111 said:

Yep I almost wrote caricature.

Thank you. That's the word that just wouldn't come to me.

[Chaos Theory]

Cult has officially made it to the top of my list.   Yay new winner!

2). Asylum  this has been my favorite for a long time.  Lana Winters story is among the best written yet. 

3) Hotel:  This may mot be the best written but it is among the most fun.  

4) Roanoke:  and awesome home invasion story.  

5) Murder House:  the original is great but it is deeply flawed.  

6) Coven:  a good idea just badly developed

7) Freak Show:  The only one I really hated and can’t find anything good to say about it.  

[Captanne]

Bearing in mind that David Bowie is as close to a diety as I think any mortal can possibly get:

1. Asylum

2. Freakshow

3. Murder House

4.  Cult and Hotel in a tie

5.  Roanoke and Coven in a tie

All are good -- but Roanoke and Coven just confused and bored me.

 

I find most of this is based on my core favourites:  Evan Peters, Jessica Lange, Mare Winningham, and that thin guy who played the transvestite in Hotel.

[DrSparkles]

On 11/15/2017 at 1:12 AM, Hazel55 said:

Not a happy ending-- a haunting, and--if one looks back at the way in which Ally's character has been portrayed from the beginning-- a perfectly logical and foreseeable one. 

Ally's ultimate corruption (she is basically the replacement Kai, with a different gender, slightly different rhetoric, and far better hair) is not out of line with the utter (but subtle) self-centeredness she has shown since the beginning of the show. In the first episodes, she was traumatized, mentally ill, and in a position of powerlessness, so she mostly evoked pity (and, from some of us, a bit of annoyance as well.) However, from the beginning there were some serious "warning flags" that Ally was selfish, self-serving, out of touch, and not likely to empathize with anyone save herself and her son. 

At the beginning, she preaches a liberal gospel-- but does very little to help out anyone else. Like any good liberal, she raves against trumps mistreatment of immigrants and minorities, yet does allows

Nope, stopped reading.

[Rap541]

I liked it but it didn't out do my favorite season, Asylum and I kinda walk away from it with the feeling that some day, someone is going to reimagine a better version of this.

There were good things and good ideas and some of the performances were outstanding. But....

Essentially we're left with "boys vs girls" as the plot and honestly I get enough of that watching Hells Kitchen.

There's a complete separation in tone and characters about halfway thru. Why did we even bother with Meadow and Harrison since they served little to no purpose? The clown killings, the dead birds from the fog trucks...  And a lot of interesting stories were ignored, like what the hell was going on in the Anderson home that led to Kai, Winter, and Older Brother whose name I forget already being so fucked up?

Was I supposed to care in the slightest about the blue shirted bro army that rose out of no where? And I am probably too technical but if Kai slapped one of Winter's friends during one of the debates, was there really time for him to be arraigned and maybe take a plea for anger management so that he could meet Bebe and learn all about the feminist cult of Valerie Solanas? To where he was recruiting Harrison the day after the election?

I did like that the plot was relatively cohesive and that we didn't rely on killing someone and then dealing with their ghost forever (this was fun in Murder House, and irritating in Hotel and Roanoke) I also liked that the cast was for the most part really good. 

With one exception - I honestly could never see Adina Porter again on this show and it would be too soon

[Hazel55]

On 11/15/2017 at 5:26 PM, SimoneS said:

I can't agree with the comments that Ally is no different from Kai. 

Yes, my statement likening Ally to Kai was hyperbole; my primary point is that over the course of the season, their character arcs did follow eerily similar paths.  Their path to power was undeniably similar, from the way they got there to the numerous ethical and moral standards they were willing to shove aside to do so. 

Of course, Kai was a misogynistic neo Nazi whose first response to any particular issue is murder; Ally is a fairly sensible liberal who is (mostly) willing to play by the rules. (Once she has settled a few personal scores and gotten the revenge she wanted.)

However, I believe the parallels between the two were fairly overt, and completely intentional on Murphy's part. 

On 11/15/2017 at 11:25 AM, Spartan Girl said:

However, we ought to remember that she originally just wanted to take Oz and run after infiltrating the cult, until Kai "claimed" him as his son and Ivy was willing to leave him alone with him.  

I personally don't buy that. Ally tells Ivy (when she is still being dishonest and manipulating Ivy) that all she wants is to get Oz to safety.  However, during her moment of brutal honesty-- shortly after she has poisoned Ivy and Ivy is slowly dying and Ally is watching with pleasure-- Ally informs Ivy that her "one desire" is something different. Ally: "I want Oz all to myself. And I wanna watch you die." 

In order for both parts of this plan to come to fruition, Ally needs Oz gone for the house for a time, and Ivy all to herself. Though Ally claims she wants to run off right away, if she had, in fact, done that, then she wouldn't get either thing she most wanted-- Ivy's painful death, or sole custody of their son. (Furthermore, we know that at this point she'd already made the deal with the FBI.) Thus, it seems to me that Ally calculated and planned the situation, knowing full well that Kai had taken Oz, and that he would want to keep him for the night. Being reasonably sure that Kai wouldn't hurt the kid and was only taking him for leverage, Ally cooly played Ivy by pretending to want to take him, predicting that Ivy would be weak enough to allow Kai to have him for the night. 

I don't think for one second that Ally's murder of Ivy that night was an impulsive act; it was not motivated, or even spurred on, by Ivy's decision to allow Oz to stay with Kai for the night. Ally begins the series weak and vacillating. But from the moment that Ally emerges from the mental institution, she simply doesn't roll like that anymore-- nothing she does is sudden or inspired by the emotion of the moment; she is cold and calculating. She finds out how to play people to her advantage, and then does so, brilliantly. And she is generally several steps ahead of everyone else. 

Which is why I believe that Ally meticulously planned out the night she'd kill Ivy; creating a situation where she knew Oz would be out of the house, by correctly predicting how both Kai and Ivy would react, and playing them both. 

And though one can only admire Ally's superior cunning and foresight, I am unnerved by the following: that she clearly placed her desire for revenge and her need to have her son all to herself above her son's immediate welfare. Sure, she could have been 99.999 percent sure that Kai wouldn't kill him, but to my mind, the best thing she could have done for Oz himself at that point would have been to get the hell outta dodge. 

On 11/15/2017 at 5:26 PM, SimoneS said:

It was her inner strength that pulled her back from the edge of insanity. Everything that she did after that, the murders and the deception were rooted in her desperation to rescue Oz from the Cult. 

While I agree that Ally's personal strength was highly impressive, I don't agree with you on her motivations. And that's my issue with the character-- in stark contrast to "she did everything she did to rescue Oz from the cult", I'd say that despite Ally's sincere love for her son, she actually was shown placing her desire for revenge and freedom from Ivy directly above her son's wellbeing. 

However, I think that Ally, perhaps more than any other character whose been featured on American Horror Story, was profoundly ambiguous. You see her as a heroine; I see her as a pretty dark horse. I think both interpretations could be backed up by evidence from the show. However, I think that some of the profound discomfort myself and some others felt with Ally at the end was deliberate; Ryan Murphy's commentary on the nature of power and what it can do to people. 

Edited November 17, 2017 by Hazel55

[Stringey]

29 minutes ago, Hazel55 said:

Yes, my statement likening Ally to Kai was hyperbole; my primary point is that over the course of the season, their character arcs did follow eerily similar paths.  Their path to power was undeniably similar, from the way they got there to the numerous ethical and moral standards they were willing to shove aside to do so. 

Of course, Kai was a misogynistic neo Nazi whose first response to any particular issue is murder; Ally is a fairly sensible liberal who is (mostly) willing to play by the rules. (Once she has settled a few personal scores and gotten the revenge she wanted.)

However, I believe the parallels between the two were fairly overt, and completely intentional on Murphy's part. 

I personally don't buy that. Ally tells Ivy (when she is still being dishonest and manipulating Ivy) that all she wants is to get Oz to safety.  However, during her moment of brutal honesty-- shortly after she has poisoned Ivy and Ivy is slowly dying and Ally is watching with pleasure-- Ally informs Ivy that her "one desire" is something different. Ally: "I want Oz all to myself. And I wanna watch you die." 

In order for both parts of this plan to come to fruition, Ally needs Oz gone for the house for a time, and Ivy all to herself. Though Ally claims she wants to run off right away, if she had, in fact, done that, then she wouldn't get either thing she most wanted-- Ivy's painful death, or sole custody of their son. (Furthermore, we know that at this point she'd already made the deal with the FBI.) Thus, it seems to me that Ally calculated and planned the situation, knowing full well that Kai had taken Oz, and that he would want to keep him for the night. Being reasonably sure that Kai wouldn't hurt the kid and was only taking him for leverage, Ally cooly played Ivy by pretending to want to take him, predicting that Ivy would be weak enough to allow Kai to have him for the night. 

I don't think for one second that Ally's murder of Ivy that night was an impulsive act; it was not motivated, or even spurred on, by Ivy's decision to allow Oz to stay with Kai for the night. Ally begins the series weak and vacillating. But from the moment that Ally emerges from the mental institution, she simply doesn't roll like that anymore-- nothing she does is sudden or inspired by the emotion of the moment; she is cold and calculating. She finds out how to play people to her advantage, and then does so, brilliantly. And she is generally several steps ahead of everyone else. 

Which is why I believe that Ally meticulously planned out the night she'd kill Ivy; creating a situation where she knew Oz would be out of the house, by correctly predicting how both Kai and Ivy would react, and playing them both. 

And though one can only admire Ally's superior cunning and foresight, I am unnerved by the following: that she clearly placed her desire for revenge and her need to have her son all to herself above her son's immediate welfare. Sure, she could have been 99.999 percent sure that Kai wouldn't kill him, but to my mind, the best thing she could have done for Oz himself at that point would have been to get the hell outta dodge. 

While I agree that Ally's personal strength was highly impressive, I don't agree with you on her motivations. And that's my issue with the character-- in stark contrast to "she did everything she did to rescue Oz from the cult", I'd say that despite Ally's sincere love for her son, she actually was shown placing her desire for revenge and freedom from Ivy directly above her son's wellbeing. 

However, I think that Ally, perhaps more than any other character whose been featured on American Horror Story, was profoundly ambiguous. You see her as a heroine; I see her as a pretty dark horse. I think both interpretations could be backed up by evidence from the show. However, I think that some of the profound discomfort myself and some others felt with Ally at the end was deliberate; Ryan Murphy's commentary on the nature of power and what it can do to people. 

In the interview posted in that link Sara Paulson would not give us her  interpretation of the ending scene now why is that ??? I wonder if a possibility could be a connection to the theme of  next season maybe.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Stringey

[Granimal]

This series relied a lot on themes that were happening across Twitter. Reactions on Twitter were predictable. Liberals seemed to like the ending. Trump-voters seemed to hate it. "Predictable the lesbians and WOC win in the end." seemed to be the sentiment. (Winning? In what way? Ally sold her soul.) I see this as a horror story to both liberals and those who voted for trump. Conservatives/Republicans against Trump likely had the most unbiased view.

I'm separating Republicans from Trump because this was clearly about trump voters and liberals and the endless SM bantering back and forth. It wasn't a Republicans v. liberals narrative IMO. The show parodied  extremism on the Trump side and extremism on the anti-Trump side. I don't think the show skewered the average Republican/ Conservative pre-Trump, but maybe I missed it.

Essentially, the show showed what Twitter would look like if it was played out in real life. Nearly impossible to separate the two, since the season starts off with a cult pretending to be Trump voters trying to trigger Ally.

Did not see it as a happy ending. Ally became what she hated the most to overcome her fears.

[Granimal]

This series relied a lot on themes that were happening across Twitter. Reactions on Twitter were predictable. Liberals seemed to like the ending. Trump-voters seemed to hate it. "Predictable the lesbians and WOC win in the end." seemed to be the sentiment. (Winning? In what way? Ally sold her soul.) I see this as a horror story to both liberals and those who voted for trump. Conservatives/Republicans against Trump likely had the most unbiased view.

I'm separating Republicans from Trump because this was clearly about trump voters and liberals and the endless SM bantering back and forth. It wasn't a Republicans v. liberals narrative IMO. The show parodied  extremism on the Trump side and extremism on the anti-Trump side. I don't think the show skewered the average Republican/ Conservative pre-Trump, but maybe I missed it.

Essentially, the show showed what Twitter would look like if it was played out in real life. Nearly impossible to separate the two, since the season starts off with a cult pretending to be Trump voters trying to trigger Ally.

Did not see it as a happy ending. Ally became what she hated the most to overcome her fears.

[Dobian]

1 hour ago, Granimal said:

I'm separating Republicans from Trump because this was clearly about trump voters and liberals and the endless SM bantering back and forth. It wasn't a Republicans v. liberals narrative IMO. The show parodied  extremism on the Trump side and extremism on the anti-Trump side. I don't think the show skewered the average Republican/ Conservative pre-Trump, but maybe I missed it.

I mentioned previously that the message for me was muddled because it started out all liberal vs. conservative but then morphed into this gender conflict.  I guess the message Murphy was going for is that the what vs. what doesn't matter, just pick a side and exploit it to build your power.

[Chaos Theory]

55 minutes ago, Dobian said:

I mentioned previously that the message for me was muddled because it started out all liberal vs. conservative but then morphed into this gender conflict.  I guess the message Murphy was going for is that the what vs. what doesn't matter, just pick a side and exploit it to build your power.

But that’s what cults do they exploit the weakest link or find a common enemy for everyone to hate.  That was the theme of the season.  What made Kai so powerful was that he was able to exploit everyone’s weakness and then turn white male anger against women.    Ally was able to do the opposite.  She was able to find her own inner strength and then use female rage against men.  Essentially it was a twisted mirror version of each other and what cults essentially are.

[iMonrey]

Quote

With one exception - I honestly could never see Adina Porter again on this show and it would be too soon

She doesn't really have much range. I thought she was fine in this role but it wasn't really that distinctive from other roles she has played. I'd prefer to see her in smaller doses.

[valandsend]

I wonder if Gabourey Sidibe was offered the role of the prison guard. With it being a pivotal role in the final episode, it would have been a good way for her to return.

[PsychoDrone]

IMO, Ally became Kai.  They just took different paths.  Much like Kai, she's only doing what she feels is right to "help" others.  But, ultimately, she has all these people (way more than Kai) gassing her head up and she is taking her movement all the way to the White House.  When a man disagrees with her on a subject, whether with valid arguments or not, he will be shouted down as misogynist or sexist.  She railed against the cult of 2-party system, but appears she wants to replace it with her own cult of followers, with HER as 'Dear Leader'.

Ally's hands aren't clean.  Her experience with the cult was bad, but her retaliation doesn't make her much better than them.  She easily could have put the whole experience behind her.  Eventually, people would have lost interest and moved on.  She simply became another cult leader whose ending could be just as bad/tragic as some of the others in history.  Of course, with her it would be different./sarcasm  I'm sure other cult leaders thought the same thing too.

[Jazzhands]

37 minutes ago, PsychoDrone said:

IMO, Ally became Kai.  They just took different paths.  Much like Kai, she's only doing what she feels is right to "help" others.  But, ultimately, she has all these people (way more than Kai) gassing her head up and she is taking her movement all the way to the White House.  When a man disagrees with her on a subject, whether with valid arguments or not, he will be shouted down as misogynist or sexist.  She railed against the cult of 2-party system, but appears she wants to replace it with her own cult of followers, with HER as 'Dear Leader'.

Ally's hands aren't clean.  Her experience with the cult was bad, but her retaliation doesn't make her much better than them.  She easily could have put the whole experience behind her.  Eventually, people would have lost interest and moved on.  She simply became another cult leader whose ending could be just as bad/tragic as some of the others in history.  Of course, with her it would be different./sarcasm  I'm sure other cult leaders thought the same thing too.

I agree.  When I watched this, I thought of the end of the Hunger Games series, and that we (the audience) are the stand-ins for Katniss as she realizes at the end that President Coin is just as bad — just as dangerous — as President Snow.  It’s no better to replace a conservative, murder-happy cult leader with an ostensibly liberal one.  

[Mattipoo]

Unfortunately this season ranks as one of the worst for me, mainly because the election theme hits too close to real life, and it is missing many of my favorite cast members including Kathy Bates, Angela Bassett, Denis O’Hare and Lily Rabe.

The season finale was also boring as there were no special guest stars or particularly revealing connections to previous seasons or the larger AHS universe. I also hated that basically everyone died except Sarah Paulson (again!) and Beverly.

So I would rank the seasons as follows:

1. Asylum (most scary and insane)

2. Murder House (most coherent story overall)

3. Hotel (camp and over-the-top)

4. Coven (story’s uneven but it did have Jessica Lange in glamor mode, Kathy Bate’s hilarious talking head, the lovely architecture of New Orleans, and “Balenciaga!”)

5. Freak Show (Twisty the clown, Dandy, the wonderful Ma Petite, Pepper’s backstory, but also Jessica Lange’s worst role in AHS)

6. Cult (got a little boring towards the end)

7. Roanoke (hot mess)

Edited November 18, 2017 by Mattipoo

[Wayward Son]

On 15 November 2017 at 11:36 AM, RedMal said:

I got the feeling that Ally didn't actually kill Speedwagon, but only said so to Kai.

On 15 November 2017 at 5:25 PM, Spartan Girl said:

That's what I thought too.  We can't trust all the flashbacks, as evidenced by when we saw Winter actually kill that one guy, then showed a false "flashback" as she was framing Beverly for it.

I agree about this! Another thing that makes me suspect Speedwagon is actually alive is the fact Beverly tells us, and Ally confirms, that Kai took the blame for every murder except Ivy's. Wouldn't he want the FBI to know that Ally had murdered a police informant? 

 

My ranking of the seasons so far would be: 

 

LOVE

1. Asylum - I always love things that focus on demonic possession and religion as I find it fabulous. The cast were amazing especially Jessica Lange and Lily Rabe. 

2. Murder House - Great season with numerous twists and turns and this was probably the most tightly plotted season of the show to date. Evan Peters as Tate was my favourite of this season. 

 

LIKE

3. Roanoke + Coven: The later seasons of American Horror Story have a habit of becoming overly convulted and filled with plot holes. I thought Roanoke did a good job of avoiding these flaws by splitting the season into two five episode blocks. I really liked a Coven because of its subject matter and I thought it was just a fun season overall. 

5. Cult - A rather uneven season overall. There were episodes I was really invested in and others where I ended up spending half of them on my phone as I was bored to tears. 

 

DISLIKE

6. Hotel - A rather dull and over the top affair in my opinion. It didn't help that 90% of the characters were pretty hard to like in spite of great performances from the cast. Denis O'Hara's fabulous performance was the only thing I can say I truly liked about the season, and I thought Lady Gaga did a decent job considering the fact acting isn't her main profession. 

7. Freak Show - Awful, awful season. I doubt I'll ever rewatch. 

Edited November 18, 2017 by Wayward Son

[goodbyeglittergirl]

I really missed Kathy Bates and Denis O'Hare. 

I thought this was one of the most cohesive seasons they've done. Unfortunately, I just didn't enjoy it very much. 

[Cotypubby]

Hated this season. I would easily rank it at the bottom of all AHS series (even below Roanoke!)

I have zero interest in watching 8 hours of misogynist alt-right neo-Nazis having slumber parties talking about how terrible women are. Even if they don't "win" in the end, it's not a fun journey to go on. And I do not want to see actual footage of Trump in my entertainment.

I like AHS when it's a Horror Story, not a Real Life Political Story.

 

And why did Kai kill the two bearded inmates? The one guy set up his friend to be killed, and then allowed Kai to kill him, for what purpose again? That wasn't part of his escape at all.

Everything about the prison was so stupid.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Cotypubby

[Stringey]

4 hours ago, Cotypubby said:

Hated this season. I would easily rank it at the bottom of all AHS series (even below Roanoke!)

I have zero interest in watching 8 hours of misogynist alt-right neo-Nazis having slumber parties talking about how terrible women are. Even if they don't "win" in the end, it's not a fun journey to go on. And I do not want to see actual footage of Trump in my entertainment.

I like AHS when it's a Horror Story, not a Real Life Political Story.

 

And why did Kai kill the two bearded inmates? The one guy set up his friend to be killed, and then allowed Kai to kill him, for what purpose again? That wasn't part of his escape at all.

Everything about the prison was so stupid.

I really enjoyed this season but admit was annoyed when he went from just being a crazy psychopath to it being about women hating and his army. He just sliced through all his original followers mostly and all that was important was the dumb army and they were just annoying. I liked his character when he was just crazy only as much as you can like a psychopath character  but hated the character after it was revealed he was just a women hating idiot.  Even though I liked how the finale concluded i hated the whole prison thing and how he had so much power in prison.

[TheGourmez]

For ranking, because this is definitely a show given to ranking:

1. Murder House: The first is still the best for me, maybe because the plot twists were the best.

2. Cult: There was so much truth in this season, and I love how extremism on both sides of the political spectrum was skewered. I'm progressive as hell, but I grew up in a very conservative household, so what drives me most insane is people's unwillingness to remember that their political opponents are also people who think they're doing the right thing. And cults are just plain fascinating.

3. Coven: That season was just a lot of over the top fun. I watch this show primarily to be entertained. Story is less important, which one must accept if one watches Ryan Murphy shows.

4. Hotel: Again, one I was in for the over the topness. Mainly the over the top aesthetic.

5. Roanoke: I lived in NC for a while, so it was fun to have Roanoke as the centering force. And I enjoyed the reality show gimmick.

6. Asylum: I think there was too *much* story this season that I gave up trying to follow it.

7. Freak Show: I don't think I could hate a season ending more than I did this one. EVERYONE DIES JUST BECAUSE!

 

I didn't think I was ready for a horror show about American politics yet, but turned out I really was! But can I please actually have a character to root for next season? Is that too much to ask for? Also, a little (lot) less Sarah Paulsen screentime please...

[Sile]

On 11/17/2017 at 8:55 AM, Granimal said:

Ally became what she hated the most to overcome her fears.

This is probably the best summing up the season in a single, simple sentence that I can think of.

As for the rankings, I put Asylum and Hotel as 1a and 1b and from there it gets a bit murky. 

Some, like Coven and Freak Show, grab me right at the beginning and then sink into a ridiculous morass, while others, like Roanoke and Cult, are almost too boring to sit through at the beginning, get red hot in the middle and then end with a bang that feels more like a whimper.

Murder House was so long ago I don't think that I really remember how much I enjoyed it.  I just remember being disappointed that I'd had Violet pegged from close to the beginning and I hated the ending just kind of leaving us hanging with Jessica Lange and the murder toddler.  

I'd probably put Murder House at 3 with the rest in a tangled puddle with Roanoke stumbling at the finish line and finishing last.

[Rap541]

Ironic, isn't it? This show made a minor plot point of Charles Manson being alive and now he's actually dead. I wonder if he ever got to see it?

[Captanne]

I don't give a rat's ass what that monster got to see or didn't -- but the irony is not lost!!  What I wonder is if Evan Peters feels kind of proud being the last actor to play that role while the real person was still alive?

Edited November 20, 2017 by Captanne

[Jazzhands]

I also thought it was ironic that the collect call that Kai made to Ally from prison was made from Corcoran State Prison, which was where Charles Manson had been housed since 1989, which means that the Manson-hallucinating Kai was building up his prison cult army literally under the nose  of the man himself.  

[Rap541]

I liked that as well, but I really didn't understand why Kai was in a state prison in California for crimes he committed in Michigan. I also - and now I am being technical - really wondered why the FBI was investigating Kai's cult. Finally, since it was the FBI, wouldn't it have been hilarious if they had somehow gotten the cast of Criminal Minds to do the take down? :)

[valandsend]

I wonder why Ally kept her hyphenated last name. For political reasons? To show her purported love for her wife who was ostensibly killed by the cult?

[Rap541]

I assume the purported love. After all, she was publically depicting herself as the grieving widow. It would be odd if she reverted to her maiden name.

[Crazydoxielady]

So hubby and I hated this season. We watched it as  the episodes built up on the DVR like a chore, "hun, we have three of those American Horror stories to get thru...."

I guess it was just me, but I felt like Mr. Murphy had an agenda here.....to compare politics and those that follow (& in particular Trump) to a cult. I felt that his agenda got in the way of the storyline.  I realize the dems were also "exposed," but it was all just a big snore.  I was bored to tears once the clown shenanigans etc. stopped. 
I am fine with a change in approach to AHS, I loved Roanoke last season.  I was not fine with "cults" being deemed horror, and I hope Mr. Murphy as exercised his own demons by hijacking the season.

[Nutjob]

On 11/20/2017 at 9:31 AM, Rap541 said:

I liked that as well, but I really didn't understand why Kai was in a state prison in California for crimes he committed in Michigan. I also - and now I am being technical - really wondered why the FBI was investigating Kai's cult. Finally, since it was the FBI, wouldn't it have been hilarious if they had somehow gotten the cast of Criminal Minds to do the take down? :)

I'm sure Murphy did this for the irony of having Kai in the same prison as Manson, but yes--Kai would either be locked up in Michigan or, if he were convicted of federal crimes, be in a USP somewhere.

 

I work in the political field, so I view most politics from a more nonpartisan lens regardless of my own political leanings--most of it is theater conducted solely for the purpose of getting officials re-elected. Yes, the ones you like and think are true believers, too. I think that made this season seem rather ridiculous and hyperbolic to me, and it made it really hard for me to get any sort of tension or "horror" from it, because I personally don't buy into all of the shrieking drama of either political extreme, and find it all rather silly. I was rolling my eyes and laughing more often during the first half of the season than Murphy probably intended. And I know I've made this point before, but I never bought that any of these people would follow Kai other than maybe Meadow and Winter. Kai is an average looking, marginally articulate, creepy weirdo, and none of these people who followed him fit the profile of people who join cults (abused, abandoned by their families, etc.)--especially not Beverly or Ivy. I just didn't buy into much of any of what happened this season, which threw the whole thing off for me. Not scary, not engaging, and not believable. It's a shame, too, because this is one of the few seasons where the plot was actually fairly tight from start to finish.

[Captanne]

Nutjob, I've had two professional careers and, as I've gotten older I have found myself in a more generalized academic setting.  (Neither jet pilot nor lawyer any longer.)  I can't watch any film or show about flying airplanes or practicing law without giving it a wide leeway.  Having read your post above, I think we see the same thing.  A comic book, over the top presentation of what we do for a living (especially if it's niche enough to have really unique qualities) is going to be difficult to swallow.

I find all the AHS's to be over the top so I don't worry about looking for any sense of reality.  I'm not sure Murphy is going for "reality" to begin with.

[Nutjob]

Oh, I get that. I don't expect reality, necessarily, but there does have to be some real-world logic present in order for me to find the horror in a show like this. I thought there were some very scary moments in Roanoke, and I liked that season very much. Beyond the political hyperbole, I think Kai's repellent personality was more of a hindrance to my enjoyment of this season. Every episode I'd find myself asking why most of the cult members would ever fall for his nonsense, because he was completely transparent and not all that articulate or convincing (The DudeBros notwithstanding), because they weren't portrayed as your typical cult targets. It took me out of the story most of the time because I couldn't reconcile it. The political stuff was just icing on all of that. :)

[Stringey]

On 11/29/2017 at 9:38 AM, Nutjob said:

I'm sure Murphy did this for the irony of having Kai in the same prison as Manson, but yes--Kai would either be locked up in Michigan or, if he were convicted of federal crimes, be in a USP somewhere.

 

I work in the political field, so I view most politics from a more nonpartisan lens regardless of my own political leanings--most of it is theater conducted solely for the purpose of getting officials re-elected. Yes, the ones you like and think are true believers, too. I think that made this season seem rather ridiculous and hyperbolic to me, and it made it really hard for me to get any sort of tension or "horror" from it, because I personally don't buy into all of the shrieking drama of either political extreme, and find it all rather silly. I was rolling my eyes and laughing more often during the first half of the season than Murphy probably intended. And I know I've made this point before, but I never bought that any of these people would follow Kai other than maybe Meadow and Winter. Kai is an average looking, marginally articulate, creepy weirdo, and none of these people who followed him fit the profile of people who join cults (abused, abandoned by their families, etc.)--especially not Beverly or Ivy. I just didn't buy into much of any of what happened this season, which threw the whole thing off for me. Not scary, not engaging, and not believable. It's a shame, too, because this is one of the few seasons where the plot was actually fairly tight from start to finish.

I enjoyed this season but agree in the back of my mind I was thinking that most of his original followers would not be the type of people who should have been taken in by him. In reality his followers would have been teenage or early twenties girls who came from abuse. And or males of the same age that were complete sociopaths who have killed before. But even though his original followers may not have been completely realistic I preferred them over the change to the Nazi type army. I can actually see him creating a group of storm troopers but I think he should have gathered new people as the original followers were killed off and kept the army thing separate.. A great idea actually would have been that the new followers were exactly the kind of people I just described a moment ago as the realistic type followers.