S04.E06: Loophole

[CooperTV]

Quote

Henry disagrees with the President and Elizabeth when they refuse to negotiate with terrorists for the release of an American CIA agent who was captured by the Taliban in Afghanistan. Also, Elizabeth tries to be supportive of Stevie who is going through a difficult time.

Promos

[Netfoot]

My vote for the mole:  Henry.  At least as suspect for several episodes!

Henry:  "Dmitri, why not come over the house (and bump uglies with my eldest daughter?)"

Stevie & Dmitri:  I'm talking to Ralph on the big white telephone!

[MerBearHou]

Just random comments:

Enjoyed --

Russell trying to cheer up Stevie after her breakup.  Loved his assistant gently cueing him to say something and then he did so in the most bumbling manner.  Very Russell.  He tried.

Matt knocking over Blake's pen holder on his desk and Blake's face after.

Elizabeth and Stevie talking about the breakup.  Very believable moments (just recently went through the exact same with our daughter -- the mom and daughter feelings and conversations were almost verbatim). This dialogue could have been written in our home!

The president not giving in to Henry's suggestion of paying $50M for the release.  I like how he diplomatically stood up to Henry.  Elizabeth did too.  

Did not enjoy --

Dmitri and Stevie's moments outside at the end of the show.  Way too soon.  Way too aggressive on Stevie's part for someone so recently heartbroken.  I'm not anti-Dmitri/Stevie but it needs to be a little further down the road, IMO.  

And there it is again -- Elizabeth's ivory untucked blouse with black bra -- what is the deal?  Must be a Tea Leoni preference.  I reallllly don't like it.

Why did Elizabeth have tennis shoes on in the bathroom with Henry at the beginning of the show when she had clearly just woken up?  She still had on her bedclothes.  Didn't make sense to me.

I'm clearly paying too much attention to the minutiae within these scenes...

[shapeshifter]

24 minutes ago, MerBearHou said:

And there it is again -- Elizabeth's ivory untucked blouse with black bra -- what is the deal? 

See my comments on the last episode thread. It's a fashion thing.

 

 I get Stevie being on the rebound and just wanting a palate cleanser from Jareth, but, as we all know, Alexi is really Dimitri, who just spent a year in a gulag being tortured and is just getting clean from heroin addiction. Oy. This cannot end anywhere good.

Plus, Alexi/Dimitri's coworker seems shady enough to be the mole, and, if he is the mole, wanna bet he'll try framing Alexi/Dmitri for it? —which could push Alexi/Dmitri into a relapse OD, which would give Stevie someone else to cry about. *sigh*

[bros402]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

See my comments on the last episode thread. It's a fashion thing.

 

 I get Stevie being on the rebound and just wanting a palate cleanser from Jareth, but, as we all know, Alexi is really Dimitri, who just spent a year in a gulag being tortured and is just getting clean from heroin addiction. Oy. This cannot end anywhere good.

Plus, Alexi/Dimitri's coworker seems shady enough to be the mole, and, if he is the mole, wanna bet he'll try framing Alexi/Dmitri for it? —which could push Alexi/Dmitri into a relapse OD, which would give Stevie someone else to cry about. *sigh*

If Bald Dude is the mole, he probably found out about the rehab & addiction somehow, and is going to use that to try to frame Dmitri.

Then he discovers that Alex = Dmitri!

[SW Sam]

39 minutes ago, bros402 said:

If Bald Dude is the mole, he probably found out about the rehab & addiction somehow, and is going to use that to try to frame Dmitri.

Then he discovers that Alex = Dmitri!

I thought he knew Alex=Dmitri, in episode 1 when Henry introduced Dmitri to them. The pregnant coworker even said it’s like seeing a ghost. 

[Guest]

I do not want to see Henry angst about Dimitri/Stevie. No thank you, please.  Also do not want to see him complain to his wife, the Secretary of State, 4th in line for President, that she didn't "take his side" in a meeting with high ranking government officials.  Please.... let her do her job. Go ahead and do whatever ridiculous job they cooked up for you to give you more to do on the show, but keep in mind that your high ranking wife might have a good perspective/read on things.

[Pop Tart]

Quote

I do not want to see Henry angst about Dimitri/Stevie. No thank you, please.  Also do not want to see him complain to his wife, the Secretary of State, 4th in line for President, that she didn't "take his side" in a meeting with high ranking government officials.  Please.... let her do her job. Go ahead and do whatever ridiculous job they cooked up for you to give you more to do on the show, but keep in mind that your high ranking wife might have a good perspective/read on things.

I hate Henry. I liked the early version of him as professor of military history who occasionally had something to contribute to world events. But this Henry? Who is now in on meetings in the oval and is being called Director (director of what?) by his subordinates and who is not only an expert spy on the ground in the middle east but will defeat Russia in the spy game and is so arrogant about his job and abilities (though he's only been in this spy game for like a moment), arghhh, the list goes on and on. Last night's episode was all about Henry and barely about Bess (the titular character). Henry lost his agent, Henry has angst about it, Henry pouts about Bess not supporting him, Henry proclaims that US policy needs to be re-examined because his agent has been kidnapped, Henry pontificating to Bess and the President (both of whom spent years working for the CIA and facing difficult choices) about how wrong they are....Argghhhh to the nth degree.

And though it was nice that Bess's team came up with the solution and got the agent freed, I knew that she'd have to sop Henry's feelings by telling him that now the president was going to take a look at the policy regarding hostages. Because of course Henry is truly right about this, not anyone else.

I don't mind Dmitri/Alexei as a character but this pushing of a romance between him and Stevie, just no, no, no. Partly because it is way too soap-opera-y (and I enjoy soap operas), but also because it will once again be all about Henry's angst.

I hate Henry.

[Netfoot]

38 minutes ago, Pop Tart said:

I hate Henry. [.....] I hate Henry.

Totally!

[secnarf]

9 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

 I get Stevie being on the rebound and just wanting a palate cleanser from Jareth, but, as we all know, Alexi is really Dimitri, who just spent a year in a gulag being tortured and is just getting clean from heroin addiction. Oy. This cannot end anywhere good.

Plus, Alexi/Dimitri's coworker seems shady enough to be the mole, and, if he is the mole, wanna bet he'll try framing Alexi/Dmitri for it? —which could push Alexi/Dmitri into a relapse OD, which would give Stevie someone else to cry about. *sigh*

Did I miss something? When did Dmitri move on to heroin? I thought it was just oxycodone.

I agree that the male coworker is a prime candidate for the mole.

[kwnyc]

Overall, I thought this was a really well-done episode. The themes resonated throughout, which are that being a boss/leader is both a rewarding and difficult role. From the overt Jay/Matt convo (which was very well set up by Bess, as she endeavors to teach Jay what she needs from him), to Russell attempting to be a "caring" boss (he really tried!), to Bess having to have a conversation with Henry in the WH when she supported HER boss about the money for hostages situation. (And later on, when she told Henry that his opinion had an effect. Excellent boss move...she IS the boss of him in situations like this and Conrad is the boss of them all.) Also reflected in Jay's giving Matt credit for his "crazy idea." Even Henry was following up his tough boss stance with Dmitri with a supportive boss move by inviting him over for a quiet evening.

BUT: No STEMITRI! I beg you, writers! 

Also, the Bess/Stevie stuff was nice. I also don't think Stevie is really interested in law school. Someone (Russell? Blake? Her mom?) needs to tell her she's clearly passionate about policy, and there can be great satisfaction in being a policy wonk. She loved the microfinance internship, and is shutting up and watching and learning a LOT in her WH internship. Grad school, yes, but in something like government, economics, international relations.

[Netfoot]

6 minutes ago, kwnyc said:

From the overt Jay/Matt convo (which was very well set up by Bess, as she endeavors to teach Jay what she needs from him).....

That's why I don't think Jay makes a good Chief of Staff.  She should have hired someone who doesn't need to be taught how to do the job.

[kwnyc]

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She should have hired someone who doesn't need to be taught how to do the job.

This is an interesting topic from a manager's point of view: I've seen people who would prefer someone who has the bona fides and experience who can step in, and other managers who want to move an employee along in his/her career, or pick someone whom they can teach or who will fit their personal style. I remember early on, when Bess told Jay:  you're MY guy now, and he accepted it. The Jays, Matts and Blakes (wish we had some women in there) are going to be making and enforcing policy, and in turn teaching the people they bring along. 

On the other hand, you sometimes need to find someone who can step in and RUN it. ;-)

[memememe76]

I want Matt and Jay and Blake to stay put. I worry if they leave, the writers will have another McCord fill in their position.

[Dowel Jones]

Bess must have strong fingers (and tastebuds) to take a bear claw directly out of the microwave.

I kind of wonder if Henry's assistant is showing up too much as a possible traitor to throw attention away from Dmitri.  That was a pretty heavy anvil that Henry dropped at the meeting when he said "someone is feeding information to the Russians" with both of them in the room.  Is Dmitri clever enough to play the long con with the drug treatment and all?  And now the "accidental" meeting with Stevie outside the house. 

And Henry.  $100,000,000 to a terrorist group, knocked down to the bargain price of $50,000,000?  Where's your head?  Cynically speaking, is the life of one agent worth the lives of potentially hundreds or thousands of US dead in the future because the Taliban now have a huge resource of money to work with?

So let me get this straight.  Pakistan has an agent in an Indian prison.  Pakistan will help with the Taliban if India will release their agent.  India will release their agent if they get cheap solar panels from Israel, which undercuts China.  Might we expect some reaction in a future episode from the Chinese prime minister in one of his teleconference calls with Bess?

[kwnyc]

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Might we expect some reaction in a future episode from the Chinese prime minister in one of his teleconference calls with Bess?

I hope so. Their scenes are gold.

[mythoughtis]

No. No, no Stevie and Dimitri.  

Please, put Henry back as an actual professor with no side job.  

[Scott]

On 11/13/2017 at 8:19 AM, kwnyc said:

BUT: No STEMITRI! I beg you, writers! 

And no relationship portmanteaux, I beg you, fellow posters.

[shapeshifter]

On November 15, 2017 at 3:37 PM, Scott said:

And no relationship portmanteaux, I beg you, fellow posters.

Not even if it's mildly amusing? How about: DiMeanStreet or DreamStealer?

[Netfoot]

6 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

How about: DiMeanStreet or DreamStealer?

Are you trying to encourage them?!??

[shapeshifter]

9 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

Are you trying to encourage them?!??

Err…maybe? But more like subvert. ;>)

[thewhiteowl]

I vote for "Stevitri"

J\K!

[bros402]

Dmitrephanie (Sounds like a medicine)

Stemitri

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, bros402 said:

Stemitri

Sounds like something growing in a Petri dish. They just better write Dimitri out before Stevie gets pregnant with his Star Child (it turns out Henry really is a super hero).

[VinceW]

On 11/19/2017 at 7:06 AM, shapeshifter said:

Sounds like something growing in a Petri dish. They just better write Dimitri out before Stevie gets pregnant with his Star Child (it turns out Henry really is a super hero).

It is a little disheartening to think that the show creator, Barbara Hall, would go in that direction, but that might explain the discussion between Henry and the Dalton administration over the need for a change in hostage policy. Stevie could be become a target for exchange if she starts a relationship with Dmitri and the Russians discover that Dmitri is behind the leaks to US. 

Edited November 25, 2017 by VinceW

[Netfoot]

2 hours ago, VinceW said:

that might explain the discussion between Henry and the Dalton administration over the need for a change in hostage policy...

Oh.  I thought it was just Super-Henry schooling POTUS and the entire administration.  As any sickeningly self-important dick-head would assume was his right.

[CheshireCat]

On ‎13‎.‎11‎.‎2017 at 0:48 AM, MerBearHou said:

Why did Elizabeth have tennis shoes on in the bathroom with Henry at the beginning of the show when she had clearly just woken up?  She still had on her bedclothes.  Didn't make sense to me.

They're her "slippers", more or less. She wears them in a lot of scenes at home. As far as I can tell, they're the shoes that she wears in all scenes she's supposed to wear heels in when her feet don't show as these shoes are custom made to be the same height as her heels.

 

On ‎13‎.‎11‎.‎2017 at 1:25 AM, shapeshifter said:

 I get Stevie being on the rebound and just wanting a palate cleanser from Jareth, but, as we all know, Alexi is really Dimitri, who just spent a year in a gulag being tortured and is just getting clean from heroin addiction. Oy. This cannot end anywhere good.

That would be the second drug addict she's involved with...

 

On ‎13‎.‎11‎.‎2017 at 11:06 PM, Dowel Jones said:

Bess must have strong fingers (and tastebuds) to take a bear claw directly out of the microwave.

That thing is huge! I had never seen one before but wow. Did she really all of that by herself?

 

Quote

I kind of wonder if Henry's assistant is showing up too much as a possible traitor to throw attention away from Dmitri.  That was a pretty heavy anvil that Henry dropped at the meeting when he said "someone is feeding information to the Russians" with both of them in the room.  Is Dmitri clever enough to play the long con with the drug treatment and all?  And now the "accidental" meeting with Stevie outside the house. 

Henry's pretty forthcoming with information anyway if they're having a mole. Shouldn't he have ordered an immediate thorough background check on everyone involved and shouldn't he be giving Dmitri and the other guy as little information as possible? I'm not surprised that he's telling them everything as he doesn't have the slightest idea of how to handle a situation like that. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that is not the writer's intention and not going to be a plot point.

 

Overall, I liked the episode. I liked how they handled Stevie telling them about the break-up. I had to laugh out loud when Bess announced that she was sitting down after Stevie's remark. I thought the scene with Russell was cute. I like how they show that he's human every now and then (even though the scene was not really necessary to any plot point). I also loved how they handled the Oval Office scenes and that Bess stayed mostly quiet during the discussions as she seemed to know that if she said something, it would only end in a fight with her and Henry. She left it to Conrad and Russell to tell argue in favor of the official policy when often times, she would be doing the talking in those situations. I think that was well done because it showed Henry without a doubt that while she's supportive of the policy, it's the United States' policy and it's coming from the very top.

I also liked the scene between Bess and Stevie and at the same time, I disliked it. The scene was well-done and very realistic but it was a glaring example of what has changed since S1. In S1 and maybe 2 it would have been Henry because Bess would still have been at work. It was that role reversal which was part of the show's appeal and Henry was good at it. And I wanted it to be Henry because, damn it, this is Madam Secretary and she's supposed to be working long, not Henry.

I sometimes really hate the show for what they have done to Henry and are doing with him!

The worst though was that scene between Henry and Bess after the second oval office meeting. My immediate thought was that Henry is a righteous ass! While I liked that Bess provided the solution for the whole thing, I hated how they handled Henry. Yes, of course, the hostage policy should be reviewed if it's already decades old. However, Henry was once again rewarded for being completely out of line and not remembering his pay grade. And instead of being required to apologize to Bess (he now owes her three apologies) and realizing that he's not cut out for the job, he gets to tell her that he told her they could make it work? I actually laughed at that. He was sulking and not talking to her because she didn't come to his aide in the Oval Office because she agrees with the policy and he tells her he told her they'd make it work. That was the most ridiculous thing ever. I just wanted to punch him for that.  (And am I really supposed to believe that some low-level director is getting the notification before the Secretary of State?)

But at least, it was Bess who provided the solution. After Bess had told Jay to make Matt's plan work, I waited for Henry to interfer (and make a mess internationally but only get told off by Conrad and then go about business as usual) and I certainly welcomed that that didn't happen. I also liked that it was a diplomatic option (and that they mentioned the India-Pakistan conflict they established on the show in the process). The only thing that I wanted was for Henry to have to acknowledge that Bess/POTUS was right and that they didn't have to make a deal with the devil. (I bet if they had paid the ransom, he'd yell at them in a couple of episodes because they put money in the hands of terrorists with which they can buy weapons).

 

As everyone else, I'm not a fan of the Stevie-Dmitri pairing. I don't know if it was intentional but I thought that Stevie was pretty aggressive and wouldn't take no for an answer. I wondered if maybe she doesn't really want a relationship and that she only wants to use Dmitri as a rebound relationship or maybe to make Jareth jealous. As long as it's not a serious relationship, I'm kind of curious where they're going with it.

Edited November 25, 2017 by CheshireCat

[shapeshifter]

Reading your summary of the Henry stuff, @CheshireCat, made me wonder if the writers are considering a Henry run for the presidency in the future. Hopefully they don't go there.

[CheshireCat]

17 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Reading your summary of the Henry stuff, @CheshireCat, made me wonder if the writers are considering a Henry run for the presidency in the future. Hopefully they don't go there.

I think that is a step they wouldn't take.

If we were living in the Madam Secretary world, Henry would still be the "man beside the woman" for us because all we'd know would be that he's a college professor (at least, I think that his CIA work is kept secret). Bess would also be the public persona for us. The difference is that we're watching it all, so Henry is thrust into our faces and we know that he's not the "man beside the woman" anymore. But Henry's still shown as having difficulties mastering the concept of the "Greater Good". More importantly, it's Bess who was offered the VP position, Bess who is still the politician and diplomat, Bess who has the high approval ratings and we've had Russell hinting at prepping her for a potential run once

Spoiler

and we've had Kat urge Bess to stay into politics for as long as possible. She did not say that Bess should run for POTUS but I felt that that was the only thing that was missing.

 

So far, I'm not seeing a possible set-up. I'm also not sure if that's a direction either of the three (Hall, McCreary, Freeman) would want the show to go. I think that it's either the network who wanted more Henry-action or that the Henry-action has gotten away from them a little and that they may not realize how some things come across.

[bros402]

Let's have a Bess/Russell ticket. It would be entertaining, and he could have the power he acts like he has.

Mostly because we can't have Bess/Chinese Foreign Minister ticket.

Edited November 26, 2017 by bros402

[shapeshifter]

59 minutes ago, bros402 said:

Mostly because we can't have Bess/Chinese Foreign Minister ticket.

Except maybe on a Masters of the Universe fantasy web series—maybe it's Russell's dream/nightmare sequence.

[sinkwriter]

Just finally got a chance to watch this episode. Echoing the please, no Stevie/Dmitri; at least, not yet. It's too soon. 

Seconding, thirding, fourthing, fifthing, or however long the list is, for those frustrated with the excessive use of Henry on a show that's supposed to be about MADAM Secretary. I appreciate them filling out his character instead of making him just this guy we see on occasion when she has time to go home from her super busy job, but at the same time I don't want him to become the guy who eclipses the woman who's supposed to be the lead character. Stop making him Super Hero of everything.

Chuckled at Matt knocking over Blake's pencil cup. I also laughed when Elizabeth got off the elevator with a quick "Morning, Blake baby," and Blake was all, "Um... excuse me?" until she explained that she meant "Has Daisy had the baby yet?" Heeeeee.

Edited December 3, 2017 by sinkwriter

[sinkwriter]

In the midst of Matt and Jay's conversation about Jay now being his boss (while in the office), it dawned on me that the plot point paralleled Elizabeth and Henry a bit, in that he's still learning the delicate balance of being passionate about a particular cause versus being respectful of those in the Oval Office having a greater picture to consider; he's essentially still learning to work with Elizabeth in a new environment and needing to understand that she's not required to agree with him on everything.

However... while Matt seemed to be flexible and have no problem being agreeable to the idea that Jay is now his boss and he needs to respect that and not go around him ever again, I feel like Henry hasn't learned that lesson.

[CheshireCat]

On ‎02‎.‎12‎.‎2017 at 7:01 PM, sinkwriter said:

 

Chuckled at Matt knocking over Blake's pencil cup.

It actually annoyed me. It's not the first time he's done it, he has a tendency to do that when Blake doesn't do what he thinks he should have done and I don't think it's funny. I think it's disrespectful and to me, it comes across as a tendency to be an office bully. At the same time, he expects to be treated a certain way, so maybe he should stop treating others disrespectfully, too. Plus, it also comes across as immature. How old is he? 6?

[sinkwriter]

I think I chuckled more at Blake's facial response (because I adore Blake) than at Matt actually knocking over the pencil cup, which was definitely childish. It could have also been meant as a playful joke. Still, not one of Matt's most stellar moments.

[CheshireCat]

14 hours ago, sinkwriter said:

I think I chuckled more at Blake's facial response (because I adore Blake)

Blake/Bergen is a jewel anyway!