S07.E06: Wake Up Call

[Camera One]

It also didn't fit with the line from "Garden of Forking Paths" where you need an "equally pure heart" to Anastasia, who had "the purest of hearts".  We were given the impression that Ivy had killed people before, since Tremaine sent her to torture and kill Henry.

This episode reminded me a little of the one where Rumple asked Regina to take the heart of the horse/unicorn but she couldn't.  Only after the Frankenstein attempt to revive Daniel had failed did Regina lose all humanity and killed a person for the first time.  Drizella learning magic, decision to commit murder, etc. all happened in one day.  

At least the actress playing Drizella is more convincing than the one playing Kylo Ren.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

It also didn't fit with the line from "Garden of Forking Paths" where you need an "equally pure heart" to Anastasia, who had "the purest of hearts".  We were given the impression that Ivy had killed people before, since Tremaine sent her to torture and kill Henry.

Why would Tremaine need Henry's heart if she had Drizella? That made no sense. Also, if Regina can just walk into Tremaine's house at any given time, why do we need a whole resistance? Just poof there in her sleep and rip her heart out. 

Quote

This episode reminded me a little of the one where Rumple asked Regina to take the heart of the horse/unicorn but she couldn't.  Only after the Frankenstein attempt to revive Daniel had failed did Regina lose all humanity and killed a person for the first time.  Drizella learning magic, decision to commit murder, etc. all happened in one day.  

One thing I liked about Regina's descent into darkness was that it was a slow burn. It took years of Rumple manipulating her before she cracked enough to have Leopold killed. 

This episode didn't have much of a story to it. It was just about the Drizella reveal and waking up Roni. The needs of the plot outweigh the few?

[Camera One]

I thought Regina would have been a little more skeptical of Rumple's claim that he was now all willing to give up his Dark One-ness and immortality.  It's like the audience is supposed to believe it, so Regina would too.  I know she's "good" now, but still... by this point, who would trust him?

Edited November 11, 2017 by Camera One

[Miles]

I wonder who Drizella loved the most and killed to enact the dark curse... Ah who am I kidding, the writers already forgot about that requirement. It's also not like Rumpel had to search for a 100 years to find a suitable rube to do it for him or anything...

 

20 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

"Oh, when will we find what Ivy did to make the Curse unbreakable?" Who cares?!

It's not that hard to figure out. She dealt Henry a mortal wound and when the curse breaks he dies. That is of course not how it worked before, but it will be how it works now.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Miles

[Camera One]

So how did Mophead Witch manage to do magic in The Land Without Magic?  

[Star Aristille]

18 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Yet the show is much more upfront about Drizella's dynamic with her mother than it was with Cora. Drizella is a step better than Regina since she's actually blaming the correct person. She's not trying to kill Anastasia or Jacinda. She's going after the woman who has abused her over the years, not that it's right. She's the only person on this show with believable feelings and motivations. Anyone would hate to be Tremaine's daughter. Being denied your parent's approval is relatable. Of the course the murder isn't, but it makes more sense than Regina offing random jesters or slaughtering villages. Let's be real - Drizella is just a better version of her. It echoes the character Regina used to be before 2B, and what she should have been.

Pretty much the big reason that Drizella/Ivy has finally become interesting to me.  Unlike Regina, she actually is taking out her anger on the one who deserves it.  Regina just wanted someone to blame, but couldn't take anything out on her mother because she just wasn't strong enough to do so, so she settled for the weaker Snow White.  But Drizella doesn't care about how strong her mother is.  She knows she's suffered because of her, and she knows she needs to pay for that.  So she's making her pay, and rightly so.

At this point, I'm just completely waving off the disinterest being shown by others.  I'm very interested in this show and am eager to see where things are going next week.  Thank God it's two hours rather than one.

[Rumsy4]

20 minutes ago, Star Aristille said:

Unlike Regina, she actually is taking out her anger on the one who deserves it. 

Erm...no. She apparently cursed or made someone else to curse a whole bunch of people so she could take revenge on one person. She's exactly like Regina. 

[Star Aristille]

Just now, Rumsy4 said:

Erm...no. She apparently cursed or made someone else to curse a whole bunch of people so she could take revenge on one person. She's exactly like Regina. 

But at least in this case, as has been said, she's seeking revenge on the right person.  And from what's been seen, she hasn't hurt anyone else since they've been in Hyperion Heights, while Regina hurt several people even after they got to Storybrooke.

[Camera One]

Trying to target her mother and not obsessing over a replacement scapegoat is a positive improvement.   But many people who don't deserve it have been affected.  Most severely was the prince she murdered in the flashback.  She hasn't killed anyone in Hyperion Heights yet, but neither had Regina by Episode 6.  Drizella has hurt everyone in her realm by bringing them to Hyperion Heights against their will.  She also gloated over waking up Roni and forced her to mess with her son's love life, when Regina hasn't done a thing to deserve such treatment from what we know so far.  So to me, Drizella is as much of a selfish witch as Regina was by 1x6.  

Edited November 11, 2017 by Camera One

[TheRabbi]

I'm 20 minutes in. This show is just dreadful. Cinderella is such an ass and has no chemistry with Henry yet he is so damn smitten with her. And I'm so over Lucy whining to everyone begging them to remember.

[Rumsy4]

Quote

But many people who don't deserve it have been affected.  Most severely was the prince she murdered in the flashback.  She hasn't killed anyone in Hyperion Heights yet, but neither had Regina by Episode 6.  Drizella has hurt everyone in her realm by bringing them to Hyperion Heights against their will. 

Much as I dislike Murderella, and think she and Henry have zero chemistry, Drizella also separated Henry and his family.  

Edited November 11, 2017 by Rumsy4

[legaleagle53]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

So how did Mophead Witch manage to do magic in The Land Without Magic?  

Probably because like Drizella, Emma, and Zelena, she was born with magic.  Those who have innate magic retain it regardless of what realm they're in.

[legaleagle53]

1 hour ago, Star Aristille said:

But at least in this case, as has been said, she's seeking revenge on the right person.  And from what's been seen, she hasn't hurt anyone else since they've been in Hyperion Heights, while Regina hurt several people even after they got to Storybrooke.

Exactly.  From Drizella's point of view, the only real target is her mother.  Everyone else is simply collateral damage or means to an end.

What I'm wondering about is exactly what Drizella's plan is for humiliating and destroying her mother.  Victoria is awake and aware of who everyone is (except that she has a self-induced blind spot when it comes to Drizella, which is why she'll never see whatever it is that Drizella has planned coming, and Drizella knows it), and she thinks she's in full control.  And yes, I'm also curious to see what the witch has in store for both of them -- it's clear that she hates Victoria and isn't afraid of Drizella, so I have a feeling that she may well be to them what Rumpel originally was to Regina and that she's playing both Victoria and Drizella.

Edited November 12, 2017 by legaleagle53

[Star Aristille]

1 minute ago, legaleagle53 said:

I have a feeling that she may well be to them what Rumpel originally was to Regina, and that she's playing both of them.

I've thought that since last week -- that the witch is very clearly playing mother against daughter to her own ends, whatever they may be.

[kpw801]

7 hours ago, Camera One said:

Another mark of a good reveal is whether it works with what we've seen.  Waking up Roni for the sole purpose of keeping Henry and Jacinda apart is stupid (and involving Lucy, daughter of someone who previously broke the Curse, is even stupider).  You'd think Ivy could have put the moves on Henry immediately, or at least more persistently since Halloween.  She already had Henry's sympathy and could have built on that.  Or she could wake up some other woman to put the moves on Henry, since he's clearly so malleable. 

Given this show's track record, at some point, we're going to be manipulated to feel sorry for Drizella again, either in flashback or present-day or both, especially because she is arguably the best new actress and they can give her the same "arc" as Regina.

She tried to mess them up with those social media photos. I think she resents any family that isn't messed up like hers. 

6 minutes ago, Star Aristille said:

I've thought that since last week -- that the witch is very clearly playing mother against daughter to her own ends, whatever they may be.

Wow! That's a great possibility! 

Edited November 12, 2017 by kpw801

[Shanna Marie]

19 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Maybe the reason why everything is so unrealistic in HH is becasue it's an AU. It's not in the Real World at all. I might love this. 

That's my crack theory explanation. It struck me when in the same episode, Lady Tremaine wanted the Heart of the Truest Believer and wanted to destroy Lucy's belief in order to raise Anastasia. That reminded me of the dark Savior vs. light Savior blood thing in the previous writer AU. It would explain so much. If Henry was forced to write it, then that would explain the timeline weirdness, why they're in 2017 -- the last year Henry was in our world -- even though there's a time jump with Henry's age. It would explain why nothing works like in the real world, like the way the police work, the custody stuff, the $500 ballet recital, etc. It would keep them from being able to just call Storybrooke for help.

Speaking of unrealistic, what was the deal with the repairs Jacinda was making on that truck? In the previous episode, the issue with the truck was that it needed to be cleaned out. It ran well enough for her to have driven it to show it to Tiana. But in this episode, she's tinkering under the cargo area, not anywhere near the engine area. I don't know a lot about trucks, but what would she have been working on in that part of the truck?

[Camera One]

14 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Speaking of unrealistic, what was the deal with the repairs Jacinda was making on that truck? In the previous episode, the issue with the truck was that it needed to be cleaned out. It ran well enough for her to have driven it to show it to Tiana. But in this episode, she's tinkering under the cargo area, not anywhere near the engine area. I don't know a lot about trucks, but what would she have been working on in that part of the truck?

Jacinda and Tiana works fast.  They just got the "food truck" and it's already painted.  Again, why wouldn't Lady Tremaine torch it?

[txhorns79]

Quote

That is a point. If she has something worse in mind, it could involve destroying Anastasia completely or something we don't know enough to guess yet.

I was thinking something along the line of Anastasia being restored, but wanting nothing to do with Victoria, or perhaps a situation where Anastasia is only restored for a few moments, but then turns to dust. 

[Rumsy4]

Zombie!Anastasia.

[Camera One]

2 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Zombie!Anastasia.

Like Zombie!Daniel except Even Better!  Two redemptions for the price of one!  

[KingOfHearts]

32 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Zombie!Anastasia.

If she were older, a zombie would probably be a better pairing for Henry than Jacinda.

Quote

Again, why wouldn't Lady Tremaine torch it?

She got a migraine after realizing what show she was in.

Quote

 Drizella has hurt everyone in her realm by bringing them to Hyperion Heights against their will.  

Did Drizella curse her whole realm though? The only people we've seen affected so far are those directly opposing her. We haven't seen any random citizens.

Edited November 12, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Quote

Did Drizella curse her whole realm though? The only people we've seen affected so far are those directly opposing her. We haven't seen any random citizens.

At this point, the worldbuilding is so bad it's hard to tell definitively.  But if it's the Dark Curse of the variety we've seen before, and if we can trust what Lucy says, then it can be inferred that the people living in the realm was affected by the Curse (like the people in Camelot in 5A or the Enchanted Forest in 1A and 3B).

26 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

She got a migraine after realizing what show she was in.

LOL.  

Edited November 12, 2017 by Camera One

[Camera One]

Two possible meta lines in this episode.

1) When Whook asks Alice if she was going to reset the chess board, she says "Things are always more fun when you start in the middle."  Which is A&E's go-to method of storytelling.

2) Henry aka A&E says about his book... "It used to bother me that no one liked it.  Then, I realized it didn't matter."  Probably their motto for this new season.

Edited November 12, 2017 by Camera One

[whyamiwatchingthis]

On 11/10/2017 at 10:14 PM, KingOfHearts said:

I'm so thankful Victoria was a false Big Bad. She couldn't carry the role at all.

 

YES! Now, if only A&E would have a wake-up call of their own and make Jacinda be a similar distraction rather true love for Henry. The best thing about this episode was how little Jacinda was in it. The only time we did see Jacinda, she essentially manipulated Henry into doing free truck maintenance for her under the pretense of that being their first date. Boy, Henry sure knows how to pick 'em! At least we know now why Ivy scorns the world. What's Jacinda's excuse for treating those around like dirt? They're running out of time trying to make this character endearing and viewers are running out of patience. The best thing they could do is to cut out the weaklings now rather than later.

And the writers had to have known that viewers would cry foul over the line about Regina being the first to love Henry. There is no way Henry would have made such a proclamation after all he had been through with Emma.

Still, this was a major improvement over last week's episode if you ask me, largely because Roni and Ivy were the focus and the actresses turned out strong performances. I definitely had an emotional reaction to the scene in which Regina wakes up and learns she is basically powerless against Ivy's deceit, at least for the time being. Of course, my enthusiasm for that scene was tempered by the disappointment that we even have another dark curse on our hands this season. It boggles the mind that A&E would agree that beating that dead horse with a stick would be the best way to re-engage already unenthusiastic viewers.

Edited November 12, 2017 by whyamiwatchingthis

[Soteria]

14 hours ago, MaiLuna said:

Well, for the first time I found Regina likeable the whole episode. She did act stupid (that's a given in this show for the plot to go forward) but she didn't do anything totally morally wrong at least. I do believe the flashback was rushed, it should've spanned more time. And I hate that they ignore the reason the show started! Kid Henry wasn't happy with Regina. 

From Regina's reaction, it seems Henry dies if the curse is broken. Or maybe Lucy. I don't see Regina having that reaction for anyone else. If it's Lucy then we can have the parent/child TLK at the end of the season like everything else they're coping from season 1. 

It seems pretty obvious Ivy didn't cast the curse, just because of the way she's phrasing it: "When the curse was cast"...

I haven't decided if Tilly really is WHook's daughter or if she'll be someone else. Or maybe they'll make us think it's someone else for a while, then reveal it was Alice all along. 

They're trying with Henry/Jacinderella but there's no much chemistry. Imagine how good it'd have been to have cursed Captain Swan falling and pining for each other *sigh*

I could imagine it and it would have been beautiful (and now I'm sad). 

I wonder how different this requel, or whatever the hell they're calling it would have been if JMo hadn't decided to leave? I'm sure it wouldn't have been too much better than what is going on now, but it would have been more watchable for me if she was still a part of the show.

Anyway, most of my thoughts on the episode have been stated by others. I also am raging over the disrespect of Emma in this episode. Stay classy A&E! Henry/Jacinderella meh, the supposedly epic romance that I'm not seeing. Their lack of chemistry is painful to watch. 

[Rumsy4]

That was beautifully put, @XrystalPond. Thank you for sharing. There was a conversation between Emma and Henry in S6 that shamed the former for "giving up" Henry as a baby, and that was rage-inducing as well. The writers have cemented their shitty stance on adoption with this episode. Shame on them!

[RolloTomasi]

It’s pretty amazing. All the grief the show got about being anti-adoption was based on (and definitely perpetuated by Lana) a birth mother apparently storming in and ripping her child away from his doting, loving birth mother. They bent over backwards to change that perception (ignoring the fact that Henry brought Emma back and Emma never wanted custody until she saw how abusive Regina was) and have circled back to being anti-adoption by shaming the birth mother and implying she’s a coward and didn’t love him. Amazing. Middle ground literally doesn’t exist to these writers. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

21 hours ago, MaiLuna said:

From Regina's reaction, it seems Henry dies if the curse is broken. Or maybe Lucy.

Or maybe they get whisked off to the Dark Realm. That would be fun. Or ogres invade Seattle.

[oncebluethrone]

I think that the line about Regina being the first person to love Henry makes more sense if you think about it from Henry's perspective. Henry knows that Emma gave him up because of her love for him, but he has no memories of the event. The first person he remembers loving him is Regina. I think the writers were trying to say that, but they worded it poorly and made it seem like Emma isn't important. It would have been a hundred times better if Henry had said "You were the first person I remember loving me."

[Camera One]

To me, the only people who saw Regina "loving" Henry were the viewers who suffered through the flashbacks.  Henry himself did not feel that Regina loved him at all, from the time he "woke up" and realized nothing changed around him.  His disdain for her was great and he didn't buy anything she was saying in Season 1.  He only began to "feel" Regina's love in Season 2, around the time when his character was destroyed.  The only reason why Regina was "the first person who loved me, the only person for many many years" was because she was the only person in Storybrooke who was capable of remembering long enough to love anyone.  He knew that Archie and Mary Margaret cared about him.  Overall, the line stuck out to me since it simplified the scenario that actually existed.  Heck, if they were truly interested in exploring Regina's psyche in her centric, they should have dug into the hard truths.

[Lady Calypso]

21 hours ago, Camera One said:

Trying to target her mother and not obsessing over a replacement scapegoat is a positive improvement.   But many people who don't deserve it have been affected.  Most severely was the prince she murdered in the flashback.  She hasn't killed anyone in Hyperion Heights yet, but neither had Regina by Episode 6.  Drizella has hurt everyone in her realm by bringing them to Hyperion Heights against their will.  She also gloated over waking up Roni and forced her to mess with her son's love life, when Regina hasn't done a thing to deserve such treatment from what we know so far.  So to me, Drizella is as much of a selfish witch as Regina was by 1x6.  

True, but she did kill Graham by episode 7 so Drizella has one episode to kill someone before she is better than Regina. Other than that, I do agree with your point, though we don't know how Drizella cast the curse, or who did it (most likely the witch with the bad hair). With the original dark curse, we pretty much knew the reason for the curse and what happened generally by now. We just had the details filled in over time. Here, we only just figured out the true responsible person who had the curse cast, and we know why, but nothing else. So we don't know if Drizella planned for everyone to be tortured with new identities (like Regina did as we knew early on that everyone was suffering in some way since everyone pissed off Regina at some point or another), or if she gave them pretty good lives. Well, besides Henry and Murderella, who seem to be the loophole in the curse. 

Drizella waking up Regina is a little different for me because she wasn't doing it to torture Regina with knowing about the curse primarily, but because she needed help to keep Henry and Jacinda from kissing and breaking the curse. Regina had certain people remembering but because of specific reasons. 

Drizella is selfish, no doubt about it. But I wouldn't say she's worse than Regina and I think Regina was worse, not just because this season has sucked at developing the villains and heroes early on. They've actually given us very little motivations or character development with any of them in 6 episodes. Drizella is a better villain than Victoria but not by much, not compared to some other villains of the series. 

[Camera One]

I agree that Drizella is not worse than Regina, based on the limited information that have on her and the plethora of information we have on Regina.  Though I do think that her transformation from angry young woman to murderer was less understandable than Regina's and that suggests less of a conscience to begin with, which makes her less sympathetic than Young Regina to me.

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

I agree that Drizella is not worse than Regina, based on the limited information that have on her and the plethora of information we have on Regina.  Though I do think that her transformation from angry young woman to murderer was less understandable than Regina's and that suggests less of a conscience to begin with, which makes her less sympathetic than Young Regina to me.

Agree. I think only Rumple is worse than Regina in the Show. But I'm not exactly finding Drizilla's motivations sympathetic, when it seems like she has not cared about the collateral damage inflicted to other people in her revenge quest. Besides, she had been ready to kill Henry at her mother's orders when she apparently had a "pure" heart (the morality in the Show's real messed up!! lol). 

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

Besides, she had been ready to kill Henry at her mother's orders when she apparently had a "pure" heart (the morality in the Show's real messed up!! lol). 

There are all kinds of contradictions here. Druzilla had been willing, even eager, to torture and kill Henry. We also learned that Lady Tremaine needed the Heart of the Truest Believer to raise Anastasia. So, not only was Druzilla's heart not pure to begin with (unless, I guess, there's meant to be a difference on the effect on the heart between intent and actually doing it), but a pure heart wasn't the necessary ingredient. And Regina knew this, after learning what Ella had been sent to do to Henry and was about to do to the old man. So why didn't Regina say anything to Druzilla about that?

I would say that Druzilla's motivations are sympathetic up to a point -- if it was true (and fit the story they're telling) that her mother was willing to sacrifice her to revive her sister. But as with so much else this season, they didn't really develop it. We haven't seen Druzilla mistreated by Lady Tremaine, and she went from 0 to 3 zillion in going straight to wanting to cast the Dark Curse to get back at her mother. That seems to be something that needs to be built up to, show her building to a breaking point or trying something else.

[Mabinogia]

I am still deeply disturbed by the fact that Roni and Henry, and hell, even Regina and Henry in Murderella's fairytale realm have more sexual chemistry than Henry and his supposed one true love. I'm a bit worried about me that I think they have more chemistry than most of the couples on this show. lol 

I have always found Regina's story deeply tragic because of how relentlessly she was broken down by her mother and Rumple in their quest to have her enact the curse. She was basically born to be used as a weapon and never stood a chance. Her backstory has always broken my heart. She would have had to be the strongest person on earth to have fought two extremely powerful adults who were trying to break her spirit. It doesn't excuse the things she did, but I do feel for her, and was never bothered by her redemption because I never thought she was truly evil in nature. She was nurtured to be evil. 

I also find Druzilla's story sad, being an afterthought to her mother who would rip out her heart to save her coma daughter. That, too, sucks. Not quite as much as the Dark One ruining anything you care about in an attempt to make you evil, but still, it's sucks. Of course, for Dru to be the "better" person, if this is a contest, she would have had to kill her mother instead of the Prince or banished her mother to another realm instead of a bunch of people who didn't try to rip out her heart. 

I really wish they would shift the focus of the show away from all things Cinderella/Henry/True Loves Kiss and steer it more into Dru's decent to the dark side. It's about the only thing I've found interesting so far this season. Alice is a mildly intriguing character but they really don't have her doing much but lurking around being weirdly cryptic. 

I'm not ready to say it was a huge mistake to get rid of most of the original cast, but I am quite comfortable in saying it was a huge mistake to cast 90% of the new cast the way they did. So far only Dru, Alice and possibly Tiana are worth much. 

[thuganomics85]

Was out of town this weekend, so I finally got around this.  Man, I remember there was a time where I would have been completely bummed out about having to wait so long.  Things sure have changed...

Actually, the episode was probably one of the better ones this season (granted, that really isn't saying much), mainly due to the revelation that Drizella is apparently the true big baddie, instead of Tremaine/Victoria.  Basically, it was her idea to create another Dark Curse (and cast it, perhaps?) because she wants Tremaine to suffer and wants to to it slowly.  Still extremely uncool that she is apparently fine with a bunch of collateral damage/others getting cursed as well, but at least she targeting the right person.  Of course, all of this could have been avoided if Regina wasn't the one who taught her how to use her magic, but failed to stop her from going down the dark path.  Sorry, Regina, but you suck as a teacher.

On the other hand, I really don't know if the writers were attending this, but it sure felt like they were taking a big old crap on Emma this episode.  I get that Regina/Henry is an important relationship and that there hands are tied on some levels with Jennifer Morrison deciding not to continue, but the way all of their scenes went and Henry never acknowledging Emma, really didn't sit right.  But with this show, it really is hard to tell if the writers are doing this out of malice or truly are just that clueless.

God help me, Henry's attempts to get back into Jacinda's "good graces" might have been one of the most cringeworthy things they've done on this show since Original Henry's infamous "You have to believe!" speech on the steps seasons ago.  This relationship is the worst.  Jacinda continues to suck and it makes Henry come off even more of a dolt.

Poor Hook seems to be stuck in a rut character wise.  Colin O'Donoghue deserves better then this.

I did enjoy the Weaver/Ronnie scenes, since I do like it whenever Robert Carlyle and Lana Parrilla together.

Once again, if nothing else, this season really is making me want to give that Reign show a go, because Adelaide Kane is easily the highlight of this.

[tennisgurl]

I was busy all weekend so I finally got to see this, and...my God am I not invested in this anymore. I almost pine for the days when I got pissed off at this show and its constant white washing of Regina's past deeds and its nonsensical plot developments. Now, I have moved onto pure and utter boredom, punctuated with occasional moments of interest. 

I just cant deal with this whole retcon of Regina being the Best and Most Awesome mom ever and ever (Emma who?) and how Henry and her had this amazing perfect relationship. Henry found Emma not only because he knew about the curse, but because Regina was emotionally aabusive and gas lit him for his entire life! This is just madness! I have come to terms with Regina as a hero despite hardly doing anything to deserve that title, but I just cant stand this constant ignoring of her past actions! A&E are so clearly bitter at JMO for leaving, and it seriously shows. 

I am glad that its looking like Drizella is the real Big Bad of the series, as she is a much more compelling villain than Tremaine, and her plan actually makes more sense than Regina's ever did. At least Drizella is directing her rage at the right person. Granted, shes seemed to have dragged a bunch of other people into this too, so she isn't any better than Regina, but at least she makes more sense. Also, smooth move teaching the clearly bitter magic girl who wants to kill ways to harness her powers Regina. Even when shes a good guy she screws everyone over. Also, what the fuck was that outfit she was wearing in the past? Was she planning on starting up a leather bar for the resistance?

Henry has more chemistry with Regina than his supposed One True Love and its seriously creeping me out. Murderella was alright this week, as she wasn't being outwardly awful and murderous, but she didn't leave a particularly positive impression either. Why is Henry even bothering with this boring, angry chick with a daughter who presumably* brings up sad memories by saying shes her father all the time? I think that, increasingly, it was a mistake to make this new revival such a copy of season 1. Now that we already saw season one, we can constantly compare it to this season...and see how it falls so short. Charming and Snow were epic. We saw their love in the flashbacks, and their pain at being separated in the present. Here, we see some awkward flirting in the past (between thefts and murder attempts) and more awkward flirting in the present. Epic? 

I am still kind of interested in Tilly and Rogers, but thats really about it at this point. 

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

There are all kinds of contradictions here. Druzilla had been willing, even eager, to torture and kill Henry. We also learned that Lady Tremaine needed the Heart of the Truest Believer to raise Anastasia. So, not only was Druzilla's heart not pure to begin with (unless, I guess, there's meant to be a difference on the effect on the heart between intent and actually doing it), but a pure heart wasn't the necessary ingredient. And Regina knew this, after learning what Ella had been sent to do to Henry and was about to do to the old man. So why didn't Regina say anything to Druzilla about that?

I was really confused as to why both Regina and Drizella were convinced that Tremaine was going to use her heart to revive her sister. It made no sense, because, as you said, she had wanted the heart of the Truest Stupid. And in HH, apparently, she needs to destroy Lucy's hope, whatever that means, in order to revive Anastasia. It's all over the place. 

[VoicePlaya]

4 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

On the other hand, I really don't know if the writers were attending this, but it sure felt like they were taking a big old crap on Emma this episode. 

It really did. I rewatched the episode since I'd missed some parts and it annoyed me even more the second time. Emma/Jmo and her fans deserve better. It's disgusting how Emma is off the show and yet still being used as a way to prop up Regina.

 

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I just cant deal with this whole retcon of Regina being the Best and Most Awesome mom ever and ever (Emma who?) and how Henry and her had this amazing perfect relationship. Henry found Emma not only because he knew about the curse, but because Regina was emotionally aabusive and gas lit him for his entire life! This is just madness! I 

It's maddening. Sometimes I don't think they even remember what a horrible mother Regina was to Henry. Now if Regina had truly and genuinely changed, watching her rebuild her relationship with Henry could have been really interesting. If we'd seen her actually taking steps towards becoming a better mother, I could buy her and Henry being on good terms. At the very least, they can have them on good terms without trying so hard to turn Regina into something she's not. A&E are the kinds of writers who think if they have the characters say something enough times, that the audience will accept it as truth but that just doesn't work. It just makes it so I can't stand to watch Regina in any capacity. 

 

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Henry has more chemistry with Regina than his supposed One True Love and its seriously creeping me out. 

Me too! Just when I didn't think Henry and Regina's relationship could get more disturbing. Their interactions creeped me out even more on my second viewing. Especially since they're trying to pretend that Regina is this wonderful mother. She comes across more like an obsessive ex-girlfriend to me. There was a point in their last scene where it almost looked like Regina was about to kiss him. The chemistry between them just weirds me out. So much. 

 

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I think that, increasingly, it was a mistake to make this new revival such a copy of season 1. Now that we already saw season one, we can constantly compare it to this season...and see how it falls so short. 

Agreed! It's funny to look at the Once Facebook and see comments from people who are enjoying the season getting annoyed by people who can't stop talking about the first season or the characters/actors who have left. But if it hadn't been such a copy of the first season, I know that I wouldn't constantly be thinking about what we've lost. If all of the new cast members were wonderful, I wouldn't always be thinking about how much better the original cast was. 

Case in point: the inappropriate chemistry between Regina and Henry only serves to highlight how much better Emma and Charming were for me. I was never creeped out by Emma and Charming's relationship. In fact, they were my favorite non-romantic pairing on the show. Their relationship never felt inappropriate to me.  

In the same vein, Henry/Murderella make Snowing seem even more epic in comparison. 

[Rumsy4]

6 hours ago, VoicePlaya said:

the inappropriate chemistry between Regina and Henry only serves to highlight how much better Emma and Charming were for me. 

That's an excellent point! Emma and Charming never had any inappropriate chemistry. Regina and adult Henry seem borderline creepy because of the co-dependant nature of their relationship. The writers still have Henry coddling and propping up Regina as his primary goal. 

At this point, adult Henry has had several heart to heart talks with Regina in the EF and Roni in HH, while he's hardly made a dent with Murderella in either realm. And Regina's life revolves around Henry, and she's making bad decisions because she misses being around him all the time. It's not a healthy dynamic. 

[daxx]

7 hours ago, VoicePlaya said:

There was a point in their last scene where it almost looked like Regina was about to kiss him.

Omg, I saw this too, it was creepy and wrong but the scene really did feel like it was going there.

[Shanna Marie]

I think part of the problem, which was intensely highlighted in this episode, is that they've managed to blandify the returning cast. Maybe they're trying to downplay them and allow the new cast to shine in comparison, but it seems like it would have been a better strategy to lead with their strengths and then use that to draw people into the new characters.

Take Regina, who's become a weaker character than post-season 3 Mary Margaret, spouting vague speeches about hope and propping up a nonexistent relationship in a way that I doubt any real person would. The last time we saw Regina in a flashback, she caught Ella on the verge of murdering someone after contemplating murdering Henry. Would she really be encouraging a relationship between Henry and Ella at this point? The one thing that's slightly edgy and interesting about her is the inappropriate relationship with Henry, but the show doesn't seem to see it as creepy. Instead, they seem to think they're writing Regina as such a good mother for talking about not being able to exist without Henry (I guess that makes Emma a terrible, bad mother for moving on with her life and getting pregnant with Henry gone). Here's where we need the timeline clarified. It might make some sense if Henry's been in a place where time moves faster and it's only been maybe a month since Henry left. Then Regina might still be having the empty nest blues and trying to figure things out and grappling with the idea of her son as an adult, but then we're also getting into the territory where there's not much age difference between Regina and Henry. If time passed at the same rate where Henry's been and in Storybrooke, so that at least a few years have gone by, then Regina should have booked a few sessions with Archie, and she really needed to find a hobby. There's something wrong if she doesn't know what to do with herself years after her son grew up and left home. This is another thing that would have been helped by it being an arc instead of one episode. She went straight to feeling out of the loop and looking for someone else to mother with Henry not needing her on one mission. That seems like something that would build up over time. As it is, she stuck around to help Henry find a woman. What did she expect to happen when Henry found her?

I'm starting to see why they never really fully redeemed Rumple because he's very boring in pure-of-heart mode. Rumple himself without the Dark One parts just isn't a very interesting person. There's hope that maybe without Belle holding his leash, he may have slipped, and Weaver remains a bit shady. But we haven't seen enough of him to find him all that interesting. If they want to keep an audience, they need to do something with him quickly.

While I like earnest good-guy Rogers, that kind of character only works if he has human flaws and is shown in contrast to other kinds of characters. So far, we haven't seen any real flaws in Rogers. He makes the right decision, for the most part. He might be a bit obsessive about his search for the missing girl, but he hasn't crossed any real lines. Him being the only upright cop in a corrupt department might be interesting, but we haven't really seen much of him interacting and conflicting with the other cops. Him up against possibly shady Weaver is kind of interesting, but we haven't seen that much of that. If we saw more of WHook in the flashbacks, where he's still figuring out how to get his life on the right track and is often inappropriate or has his temper, that might make a fun contrast to Rogers (like season one Mary Margaret vs. Bandit Snow), but I don't think he's had more than one or two lines in the flashbacks since he joined the group. There's potential with Weaver now knowing he's Rumple -- but does he know that Rogers isn't his Hook? And if he does, is that better or worse? They presumably have the same history with Milah, but he's never made a truce with this Hook, this Hook isn't his grandson's stepfather, and this Hook was never good friends with Belle, so he owes him nothing. We also haven't seen how he's interacting with Regina and Henry. Wouldn't it be weird for them to have this guy around who looks so familiar but is a different person? Without delving into any of this, Rogers is just a nice, good cop who happens to look like this other character we used to know.

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

I'm starting to see why they never really fully redeemed Rumple because he's very boring in pure-of-heart mode. Rumple himself without the Dark One parts just isn't a very interesting person.

I'm finding him really boring too. And quite a bit irritating with that smug self-satisfied look he seems to be wearing constantly. As if he's internally crowing about how good he is now, and how pure his heart is. Blah blah.

Edited November 13, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

33 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I'm find him really boring too. And quite a bit irritating with that smug self-satisfied look he seems to be wearing constantly. As if he's internally crowing about how good he is now, and how pure his heart is. Blah blah.

Plus as Woken Up Weaver, he's acting exactly the same as he did when he used to be evil.  I really don't see the difference.

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

Plus as Woken Up Weaver, he's acting exactly the same as he did when he used to be evil.  I really don't see the difference.

Did he do anything more than refuse to leave the hospital in a wheelchair? I have a vague mental image of maybe another scene in the police station, but I think it's from the previews for next week. I wish they were better about logical story progression instead of centrics. The Tiana episode really stopped the momentum. It's not like it was answering questions we were curious about, and it kept them from following up on all the various plot arcs, like Rumple now in the same world with the others, the next move for the resistance movement, seeing how WHook fit in with the others, building up to Regina feeling left out, showing some relationship development between Henry and Ella so that we might give a sliver of a damn that they aren't together in the present, etc. And meanwhile, maybe at least have Rogers visit his partner in the hospital and we can see if Weaver is different with him.

[Camera One]

12 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Did he do anything more than refuse to leave the hospital in a wheelchair? I have a vague mental image of maybe another scene in the police station, but I think it's from the previews for next week. 

That was from this episode.  Roni went to Weaver for help in digging up adoption records and he did his usual Mr. Gold "Why should I help you?" bit and then later, in another scene, he went to the bar and gave Roni the envelope and cue the predatory smirk as Roni promised him a favor in return in the future.  Speaking of which, why didn't Roni ask Rogers?

Regina had no problems storming the Tremaine house, which makes me wonder what type of useless recon missions the Resistance was doing.  Why would Regina be sitting around the forest doing nothing?   She could probably accomplish more in one afternoon than everyone else in three weeks.

If you compare Henry's gullibility in Hyperion Heights with Ivy to Regina's gullibility in the flashback with Ivy, they were both very easily tricked.  Even Regina's frick'in CURSED personality realized that Ivy could not be trusted, but apparently, her wiser and cynical self in the past fell hook, line and sinker.  Riiiight...

Edited November 13, 2017 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

9 minutes ago, Camera One said:

That was from this episode.  Roni went to Weaver for help in digging up adoption records and he did his usual Mr. Gold "Why should I help you?" bit and then later, in another scene, he went to the bar and gave Roni the envelope and cue the predatory smirk as Roni promised him a favor in return in the future.  Speaking of which, why didn't Roni ask Rogers?

Wow, I completely blanked on that, but now I remember it. The bit from the previews I recall was Roni saying the name "Rumpelstiltskin" to Weaver. And, yeah, why not ask Rogers? Unless she knew it was a bit iffy to go after that information when it didn't relate to a case, and it would be putting Rogers in a difficult position to ask for it. Weavers was basically being Gold with a different accent there.

11 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Regina had no problems storming the Tremaine house, which makes me wonder what type of useless recon missions the Resistance was doing.  Why would Regina be sitting around the forest doing nothing?   She could probably accomplish more in one afternoon than everyone else in three weeks.

They are a rather useless resistance movement if they haven't brought down their target when someone can just waltz into her home and confront her. And you've got to wonder what their plan is, what they intend to do with her, when apparently killing her is off the table and would be bad. Or do they have to kill the king before they can kill her?

[Camera One]

11 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

They are a rather useless resistance movement if they haven't brought down their target when someone can just waltz into her home and confront her. And you've got to wonder what their plan is, what they intend to do with her, when apparently killing her is off the table and would be bad. Or do they have to kill the king before they can kill her?

The bigger ramifications of this, is it's pretty hard to take this "resistance" movement seriously at all after this.  Just because it's a centric about Regina doesn't mean they can make up random stuff for a continuing plot point like the resistance, by saying off-hand that Henry/Cinderella are doing re-con missions with a noisy motorcycle (?!), Whook is patrolling the coast (?!) and the actual resistance leader is MIA and totally not using a vital member like Regina.  Do they seriously expect us to believe Regina knew Tremaine and Drizella wanted to murder Henry and she's sitting around moping that her son doesn't need her anymore?  Maybe he can fight against thugs in the woods, but Tremaine with a magic wand?  Heck yeah, Henry and well, EVERYONE needs her.  

Edited November 13, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

They are a rather useless resistance movement if they haven't brought down their target when someone can just waltz into her home and confront her. And you've got to wonder what their plan is, what they intend to do with her, when apparently killing her is off the table and would be bad. Or do they have to kill the king before they can kill her?

At least with the Evil Queen, magical people were sparse and they weren't powerful enough to take her on. Even if someone did pose a threat to Regina, Rumple would step in to save her ass.

[Camera One]

Speaking of which, is All-Reformed-"Up"-Rumple all words and no action or what?  Wouldn't Belle want him to help Henry, Regina and the good guys defeat Tremaine?  Oh right, all that matters is his own selfish quest to find The Guardian.  This is soooooooooo different from his old self.