GH History Lessons: Because History is Always Repeating Itself

[Cheyanne11]

3 minutes ago, UYI said:

I swear I remember it being in a cheap motel. Because when Stone told Robin he was HIV positive after he was shot and started bleeding, he was in a cheap motel. 

Either way, I'm sorry if I got that wrong! 

No, no--it WAS a cheap motel.  But first they were at Sonny's apartment, not a room above The Outback.  Mac barged in on them and they ran off to the No Tell Motel.

[Asp Burger]

UYI, I was not watching then, but definitely a hotel or motel. There's a guy at the checkout desk, and Mac calls asking for Michael Cates.  

Someone also recaps it on a site selling GH DVD edits: "Meanwhile, Robin and Stone are in a seedy motel. Robin tells Stone all the reasons she fell in love with him. They make love. Afterwards, Stone raids the vending machines for snacks and they have a picnic in bed. Later, Robin gets dressed and insists on going home to face Mac alone." 

Edited April 9, 2017 by Asp Burger

[UYI]

I wasn't watching then either, but I have seen it before and remembered the motel. Thanks! 

[BubblingKettle]

The mentions of The Outback are reminding me of Uncle Mac's now-forgotten Aussie accent. 

[Asp Burger]

If I were a soap writer/show-runner, my first rule would be no accents unless the actor actually has one. It's just too much of a pain to sustain if a character may be around for years, and you just never know who's going to catch on. A movie is different, because that gets shot and it's done. 

I remember Peter Reckell's "slip-sliding brogue," as one reviewer put it, when he played Johnny Rourke on KL. Eventually they just wrote the fakeness of the Irish accent into the story, and had him give it up, which I don't think was the original plan.    

Edited April 10, 2017 by Asp Burger

[Harmony233]

I miss when they wrote decent teen stories.

[Melgaypet]

I miss when this show had decent stories, full stop.

[Oracle42]

I'm watching old GH on YouTube. Y'all, I did not realize it at the time, but there is no shade like the shade of Dr. Meadows. She never would have misdiagnosed a pillow as a baby

[ulkis]

11 hours ago, Oracle42 said:

I'm watching old GH on YouTube. Y'all, I did not realize it at the time, but there is no shade like the shade of Dr. Meadows. She never would have misdiagnosed a pillow as a baby

Can you give me an example of a scene? I remember her name but I'm blanking on any of her scenes.

[Chairperson Meow]

I just realized something about AJ's murder.  So, Sonny killed AJ because he thought AJ killed Connie and was going to kill Ava.  He then learns Ava killed Connie, threatens to kill her as soon as the baby is born.  He doesn't do this.  He also did what he allegedly killed AJ over.  

Now I have a migraine.  

[dubbel zout]

It doesn't matter to Sonny that AJ didn't kill Connie. He's not sorry at all he killed AJ, except that Michael was mad at him for a few weeks. Also, AJ was fat, so he deserved to die.

[Oracle42]

It should still bother him that Ava set him up to murder AJ, though. It makes him look stupid and easy to manipulate - which he is, but he doesn't like to think so

[Chairperson Meow]

1 hour ago, Oracle42 said:

It should still bother him that Ava set him up to murder AJ, though. It makes him look stupid and easy to manipulate - which he is, but he doesn't like to think so

Ava mannippleated him.  That's a murderous offense in Port Charles.  Sonny won't even get 3 hours.  

[UYI]

Right before Port Charles premiered 20 years ago (!) on June 1st, 1997, where Lucy and Lee find out that Scott and Serena are coming home. RIP, Peter Hansen!

[TeeVee329]

Awww, what a great clip!  Though it does make me sad for Lucy that, come 2017, Serena will seemingly again be unable to cross the Port Charles city limits. 

[Oracle42]

I'm watching Ric/Alexis/Sonny in the sick Kristina story. Every single person in this story and every single moment is better than this stupidity with Jake

[ulkis]

Quote

Preach. I thought the scene...well, more like the entire day of Lucky shouting at Elizabeth that she was a cheating slut, a faithless tramp, a bitch, a farm animal, someone who gave sexual favors out like candy, and expressing nostalgia for the way she was when he "found her in the snow" (ah, the good old days of someone just having been raped), was disgusting. Coming online to see women cheering it on made it worse. Nothing against Jonathan's performance, or Becky's. It was gratuitous and abusive.

Lucky could be nasty when lashing out though ("maybe you need to be raped or kidnapped to feel wanted by sombody", as he once said to Laura) so I didn't think it was necessarily too much coming from him. The only line I thought they should have definitely taken out was "what happened to that little girl I found in the snow" because it was ridiculously meta. And gross, but it felt weird and meta and not like something Lucky would say.

In any case, I wasn't bothered by what Sonny said to Carly either this week. I would have been more bothered if he were nice and understanding lol.

[Asp Burger]

It wasn't that I thought he shouldn't be angry, and shouldn't lash out. It just went on forever. As if someone had a list of belittling words Liz could be called, and why decide on one of them, or even two? Just make it unfold over six segments and put a different misogynistic curse in every one, while the woman stands there crying and begging. Oh, but the Niz affair had gone on for a long time, so she was due. She had it coming.

Not for the first time, I found myself thinking about the then-head-writer's psychology more than anything plausible involving the characters. It was hardly an isolated incident.    

At least since it isn't a cable show, we were spared the C-word.  

[TeeVee329]

I do wish Lucky had had more vitriol for Nikolas in that scene.  I think he says something about Nikolas being a Cassadine down to his rotten core or something, but it wasn't enough.

Or maybe I'm still salty from Nikolas not being dragged near enough for the Jake(son) secret, trying to kill Rebecca Budig, etc.

Edited April 13, 2017 by TeeVee329

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, TeeVee329 said:

I do wish Lucky had had more vitriol for Nikolas in that scene.  I think he says something about Nikolas being a Cassadine down to his rotten core or something, but it wasn't enough.

Nik didn't get nearly the vitriol from anyone that Elizabeth did. It was really gross, and very typical of the GH misogyny that men are lured by the siren vagina against their will. UGH.

[ulkis]

2 hours ago, TeeVee329 said:

I do wish Lucky had had more vitriol for Nikolas in that scene.  I think he says something about Nikolas being a Cassadine down to his rotten core or something, but it wasn't enough.

Or maybe I'm still salty from Nikolas not being dragged near enough for the Jake(son) secret, trying to kill Rebecca Budig, etc.

I can understand it in that scene, but there should have been another scene for Nik. They should not have even had Nikolas in the scene. He looked like a schmuck for not dragging Lucky out of there. Not that Nikolas wasn't a schmuck anyway, but still.

[Oracle42]

Was GV in the role when the affair started? I wonder whether they would've just made Nik/Liz a couple if GV had stayed.

Nik should have gotten dragged (still should)  and I think some of that was standard Pruza misogyny. But I think it was also intended to be a reflection of the relative importance of those relationships to Lucky -because Nik's betrayal hurt him, but Liz (with Nik) was devastating.

[ulkis]

Yeah, the Niz affair started off with GV. And yeah I do think if he had been in the role, he would have presented as wronged but Nik/Liz would have been genuine affection instead of sleazy.

[dubbel zout]

8 minutes ago, Oracle42 said:

I think it was also intended to be a reflection of the relative importance of those relationships to Lucky -because Nik's betrayal hurt him, but Liz (with Nik) was devastating.

Fair enough, but why didn't Lulu rip Nik a new one? He's her brother too.

[Oracle42]

On 4/13/2017 at 10:43 AM, ulkis said:

.The only line I thought they should have definitely taken out was "what happened to that little girl I found in the snow" because it was ridiculously meta. And gross, but it felt weird and meta and not like something Lucky would say.

 

Before I checked the boards that day I thought he was talking about the difference (in character, I guess)  between Liz at 15 versus Liz at 25. She was devastated by the rape  - she was hurt and angry and afraid but she wasn't broken by it. Liz at 25 didn't feel like that person anymore. Because the statement doesn't make sense otherwise - obviously for the characters, but just in terms of context it makes no sense

Edited April 20, 2017 by Oracle42

[WendyCR72]

The "snow" line uttered by Lucky was gross. But the rest? Yes, I cheered it. Because Liz deserved it. And one could argue this was cumulative, not just about Nik, per se, but because this was the second time Liz had done this to Lucky, the first being with Jason. And, yes, the whole Maxie angle can be thrown at Lucky, but the emotional aspect - shredding PCPD files for Jason even as Liz knew Lucky was a cop - started before Lucky got injured and addicted to drugs.

And let us remember Liz forgave Lucky and remarried him even as she was pregnant with Jake - whom Lucky thought was his - even as Liz made cow eyes at Jason during the ceremony. That was just nasty.

So, I could see all of that building up to what happened with Lucky and Liz, and considering all that? And pretending to be so innocent and blameless as to Lucky's behavior towards her? Liz reaped what she had sown. Nik should have gotten roasted a hell of a lot worse, though, as should Jason. The inequality is something I will agree is disgusting. But Liz herself being attacked was deserved, IMO. Minus the gross "girl in the snow" line, which should have been deleted.

[UYI]

7 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Fair enough, but why didn't Lulu rip Nik a new one? He's her brother too.

She did, but only as a half a minute side note while spitting bile over Liz (the very beginning of this clip):

7 hours ago, Oracle42 said:

.Nik should have gotten dragged (still should)  and I think some of that was standard Pruza misogyny. But I think it was also intended to be a reflection of the relative importance of those relationships to Lucky -because Nik's betrayal hurt him, but Liz (with Nik) was devastating.

Minor side note: Chuck Pratt was gone by then. :)

[Oracle42]

JMB actually unloading on Nik would have been everything. She and JJ really were great sibling casting

[dubbel zout]

11 hours ago, UYI said:

She did, but only as a half a minute side note

Exactly. Nik was basically an afterthought. He deserved as much anger from Lulu as Elizabeth got. Maybe more, given that one brother hurt the other.

[Vella]

Bringing JJ back to haul TG off finally was the worst decision because all it really did was re-emphasize what a horrible parent Lucky chose to be.  First, abandoning his children on Christmas Eve and then abandoning them AGAIN after finding Jake.  That fake out 'Lucky Skypes once a week' thrown in line was a joke and they should simply have never gone there.  I loved teen Lucky and Nikolas and I don't think I'll ever forgive the show for just allowing them to become such selfish, cowardly parents who without blinking an eye, abandon their children for pathetic reasons.  Lucky punking out AGAIN was just infuriating to watch.

[Asp Burger]

Nik was basically an afterthought. He deserved as much anger from Lulu as Elizabeth got. Maybe more, given that one brother hurt the other.

Now, this was more even, in the way the anger is distributed.  

 

Her "Are you Sarah's gallant defender now?" is pretty close to Lucky's "You wanna get all chivalrous, defend your little prize over here?" 

I don't like some of what Becky does in these scenes -- she overplays bitchiness -- but still, she's the only one of the three who's good at all. Jacob Young seems even more painfully bad looking back than he did at the time.  

But as bad as the writing on the show was at this point, the angry person isn't resorting to what I would call abuse. 

Also, the scenes were a lot longer then. Today, this would be happening in 90-second segments, broken up by Nina/Valentin, Anna/André, Ava/Kiki, and Finn/Hayden.  

[Melgaypet]

On 4/14/2017 at 8:37 AM, dubbel zout said:

Exactly. Nik was basically an afterthought. He deserved as much anger from Lulu as Elizabeth got. Maybe more, given that one brother hurt the other.

It was weird. I recall Lulu blaming Liz even when she (and Lucky?) thought that Nik was harboring an unrequited love. She told Nikolas he was "expected to be selfish" but Liz should have...been able to magically change his feelings?  

My take on Lucky's rant... barring the bizarre and distasteful "girl in the snow" line, I loved it. I love Liz, but she deserved it. Yes, Nikolas should have gotten a lot more shit (I remember wishing at the time that Laura was in town to rip him a new one, but given how she barely cared when he became an attempted murderer...), but "rutting like farm animals" made me gasp/laugh.

When I say Liz (who I also love, btw) deserved it, I don't mean she actually was a bitchslutwhoretramp. She was not. She was a cheater and a liar. But I think someone who just found his longtime love and fiancée in bed with his brother can maybe be forgiven for going there. Doesn't make it right, but it is an identifiable human response, you know? I understood where Lucky was coming from. I did NOT understand where Liz was coming from, because she was written zero point of view in that story. That made it so grossly unbalanced.

That's kind of the problem with those words, when it comes to GH. First, of course, they are misogynistic and offensive. But secondly, they should land hard. Which doesn't happen when they're habitual. JJ managed it, I flinched and that was a good thing. When Sonny goes on his millionth "you're a whore" spiel, it's utterly predictable and I feel nothing but tired disgust.

I feel like I'm explaining myself poorly. I guess it goes back to the idea that it's one thing for characters to be misogynistic* but another thing when the show itself is.

*I am, of course, thinking of Sonny and his ilk, but since I was nattering on about Lucky, he does have something of a white knight/hero complex going on (learned behavior, straight from his parents, even though Laura used to be pretty badass) which is damn sexist at the root.

Edited April 15, 2017 by Melgaypet

[ulkis]

I do think a part of no one really coming after Nik though was Nik being a bit of an afterthought to Guza at that point, as well.

I think Lulu meant no one really expected better of Nik, which, actually I don't think anyone expected THAT of Nikolas. Even Luke was surprised.

That reminds me, I did love Luke's reaction to Liz. I wonder if TG changed it up some. People called it Luke letting Liz skate but it wasn't at all.

[dubbel zout]

2 hours ago, ulkis said:

That reminds me, I did love Luke's reaction to Liz. I wonder if TG changed it up some. People called it Luke letting Liz skate but it wasn't at all.

I loved Luke's reaction, too. In his own way, he gave her a hard time about the cheating. He just didn't scream at her and call her a bitchslutwhoretramp.

2 hours ago, Melgaypet said:

I did NOT understand where Liz was coming from, because she was written zero point of view in that story. That made it so grossly unbalanced.

Ugh, the writers totally dropped the ball. It's one reason I hated Lucky's reaction, because even though he had every right to be angry, that level of vitriol toward Elizabeth seemed extreme when we weren't given a decent reason for her cheating.

[Oracle42]

There wasn't a decent reason for her cheating. I really do think there was a time when Liz/Nik would have worked, but I think that time was probably about a decade before the cheating -preferably before the Nik recast.

By the time Niz actually happened the writers hadn't bothered building in enough differences between Liz and Emily for Niz to be something special and distinct, except inasmuch as it was a betrayal of Lucky.

Edited April 15, 2017 by Oracle42

[Vella]

I don't think Nikolas/Liz would have ever worked except MAYBE after Lucky's death.  Just like Lucky/Emily would have worked as teens, before Nikolas and then MAYBE once Nikolas was dead.  There was just too much goodness established between the brothers that I would never expect either of them to just NOT care enough.  That's what really happened when Niz and Luckily hooked up, the brother in the equation just stopped giving a shit about the other or how it would affect him.  Lucky could only think about what he wanted when Nikolas came back from the dead and the same went for Nikolas. He did not care about Lucky being devastated by their secret.  There has to be good reasons to begin with, why they get together and then when it gets really grey and murky, you have to write it so carefully to ensure everyone doesn't come out with a film of sewage on them.  That just didn't happen here.

[ulkis]

I agree with you in general, although by last summer I was ready for them just to do Nik and Liz and get it out of their systems. For me, it would have preferable to Franco/Liz and Nik/nonsensical motives.

[Vella]

Sure, but by that point they'd, rather hilariously, made it clear that Liz only wanted Nikolas when he was with someone else and yet when they were both free and clear to be together, she suddenly lost interest in going the distance with him. I'm sure the show never intended that or really even acknowledged it, but it was pretty funny at the time.  I'm still flabbergasted that the show would send Liz/Ric into the grinder in favor of Liz/Jake. Liz/Ric was so far superior in every way and yet Oatmeal for 2 was what came down the pike.

I've just never seen a show that is SO determined to take the least interesting, least dynamic, most boring and character wrecking storyline available.

[dubbel zout]

17 minutes ago, ulkis said:

I was ready for them just to do Nik and Liz and get it out of their systems.

I think anything resembling a romantic relationship between Elizabeth and Nik shouldn't have worked. Grief!sex is totally understandable, as well as curiosity, but it shouldn't have been anything more. 

8 minutes ago, Vella said:

I've just never seen a show that is SO determined to take the least interesting, least dynamic, most boring and character wrecking storyline available.

I KNOW. A lot of people have a lot of axes to grind, it seems.

[Oracle42]

Quote

I think anything resembling a romantic relationship between Elizabeth and Nik shouldn't have worked

I think it could have worked after "Lucky" died, but then  they recast with Colton Scott. Then, when they got TC back, they spent years establishing Emily as the great love of his life.  There was no new ground to cover with Liz so I actually think attempting to establish some sort of explosive sexual 'can't stay away from you' chemistry storyline was viable except that it didn't match the character's relationships with Lucky

[Vella]

Coltin Scott. I felt bad for him at first, and then he admitted he didn't watch anything TC had done as Nikolas because he wanted to have 'his own' take on the character. I get wanting to make a character your own, but maybe spend a couple of hours at least grasping who the character was so it's not so jarring when the changeover happens.  Plus, he was kind of hampered by TPTB screen testing him with BH and not say, SN.  It showed that TPTB were more keen on a potential romance with Liz than making sure Nikolas/Stefan was solid. Just not good decision making.

[ulkis]

Him whining that Stefan wouldn't let him take saxophone lessons was  . . . something.

[peachmangosteen]

7 hours ago, Vyk said:

The rape mention aside, hasn't it always been said here (and in other places) that the cheated-on party should be angrier at, and harsher with, the cheating party than he or she should be at and with the cheated-with party?  Whether male or female, the cheater should feel more wrath from the party on whom he or she cheated.  So Lucky should've been angrier with Elizabeth than Nikolas.

In most cases I completely agree with this, but I think this situation was a bit different since Nik was Lucky's brother. That's a pretty big betrayal.

Edited April 16, 2017 by peachmangosteen

[Oracle42]

Yeah, but I don't think there was ever a point when Lucky valued his relationship with Nikolas more than his relationship with Liz 

[Asp Burger]

Quote

There wasn't a decent reason for her cheating. I really do think there was a time when Liz/Nik would have worked, but I think that time was probably about a decade before the cheating -preferably before the Nik recast.

That is how I feel. Liz and Nikolas in the weeks after the fire were great, but we all knew Tyler had one foot out the door. The arrival of Coltin Scott utterly killed any potential there.  

Becky was snakebit with her pairings in 1999. There were three actors on the show, Jonathan Jackson, Tyler Christopher, and Steve Burton, whom I liked her with, and they all left in that order. She and Jackson were in the midst of a real romantic story. With Christopher and Burton, the writers had teased enough for those pairings to have growing fan clubs. I think Liason had more fans, because there was immediate backlash against Liz/Nik as too soon.

Of course, she ended up playing romantic relationships with all three actors the next decade...and in every case, I feel they screwed it up. If you'd told me in 2000 that one day Becky, Tyler, and Jonathan would all be on the show at the same time, and there would be a story where Liz was torn between Lucky and Nikolas, and that I'd hate watching it, I'd never have believed it. But that's what happened.

I have to say again, now and forever: never got Liric. Or Ric Lansing.  Even when he was anti-Sonny, it wasn't the kind of anti-Sonny I can enjoy, because that neediness was always underneath it. I really think Sonny, not Alexis or Liz, was Ric's major love story on GH.  Ha...like Hannah, Reese, and Claire, he was a brunette who was trying to take Sonny down, but ended up wuvving him! 

Edited April 16, 2017 by Asp Burger

[WendyCR72]

9 hours ago, Oracle42 said:

Yeah, but I don't think there was ever a point when Lucky valued his relationship with Nikolas more than his relationship with Liz 

Right. And okay, while they did become close after a lot of suspicion and mistrust, I think that brotherly dynamic would always be different from the average brotherly relationship since, for many years, their families were mortal enemies, not to mention that Lucky and Nik were not raised as brothers from jump. Not saying they didn't forge a bond, but between Nik and Liz, I still think the latter's betrayal hurt Lucky more.

[Ambrosefolly]

41 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

Right. And okay, while they did become close after a lot of suspicion and mistrust, I think that brotherly dynamic would always be different from the average brotherly relationship since, for many years, their families were mortal enemies, not to mention that Lucky and Nik were not raised as brothers from jump. Not saying they didn't forge a bond, but between Nik and Liz, I still think the latter's betrayal hurt Lucky more.

 

But they did acknowledge each other as brothers, and had for a decade. They had a good relationship and I would argue for a long time, they were best friends. And it isn't like Nik was a big fan of Helena and Stavros. During the Black and White Ball and the Jake Reveal, Nik was the one that stood up for Lucky when everyone was laying the entire blame at his feet for the breakdown of LL2. Both betrayal should have hurt equally. 

[ulkis]

Quote

That's right...that whole Dead Man's Hand fiasco! Did she then move on to BillyWarlockAJ or was Sonny next? I think I remember the chronology from there...

@TheMediaHo Next was Sonny, of course. And then Jason. 

[TheMediaHo]

And  Ric and Lucky...no goodies for BillyWarlockAJ?

[Vella]

Quote

I'm never going to argue in defense of Sonny/Sam, that shit was gross on every level. But at least Sam was a stranger to Sonny, Julian put his wife in that position. I think Sonny/Sam would still win a vileness competition on the basis of the general sleaziness of the relationship but it doesn't make Julexis look good that that is its closest comparison

That actually makes my point for me. They were strangers. He kidnapped her at gunpoint, she was terrified and screaming as he forced her into her vehicle and held her hostage.  Yet not long after, they're sleeping together and she's falling for him?  THAT is a situation where emotions are cut and dry. There are no attachments of any kind, no child together, no falling in love, no marriage, no life together.  All the things that would emotionally complicate a situation are not present.

Yet Sam still slept with Sonny, fell for him, became his mistress and got pregnant.  So she knows what it is to be threatened with violence by a man and still find yourself getting freaky with him after the fact.  They are still best buds to this day.

So she needs to shelve that holier than thou attitude. Maybe start with HERSELF before whining about what Alexis is doing.  Alexis, at least, realizes how fucked up this is and that she MUST let him go, that her feelings can't overrule what he did to her.  Sam does not see or feel that much of her own life is saturated with violence and that she needs to stop threatening people with Sonny before she decides she knows best for Alexis.