These Spoilers Suck: Bitter Speculation About SPN Spoilers

[ahrtee]

7 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Um, hmm, oh remember in the finale there was like a few minutes of child Dean and baby Sam, yeah nope, I got nothing.

I think he was talking about how they were identified as "Mary's children" over and over in the narrative (and supposedly in their own minds), not necessarily anything literally as shown.  Maybe.

[Jonesy]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Um. When was last season about Dean and Sam as kids? WTF is Dabb babbling about here? 

 

‘Supernatural’ Boss Says Season 13 Sees the Winchesters the ‘Most Alone’ They’ve Been

By Danielle Turchiano

@danielletbd

Excerpt

 

http://variety.com/2017/tv/news/supernatural-season-13-jensen-ackles-jared-padalecki-spoilers-1202555868/

Dabb was talking about Dean as Sam as kids to Mary...as sons.  Now instead as proto-parents to Jack.  And with regards to Cas--no worries he may be changed but it's not fundamental...Cas has had a lot of changes as has Dean and Sam but the big ones NEVER stick. 

[ILoveReading]

Quote

“This will be the most alone Sam and Dean have been,” series executive producer Andrew Dabb tells Variety.

I would swear this was exactly how they described season 7.  I guess we're supposed to pretend Jody and Donna aren't out there and would help if asked.  To bad there isn't a way that Sam and Dean could contact them without having to be in same room....

Quote

“Overall, the push for mom is the driving factor behind a lot of what our guys do and the melodrama between them in the first chunk of the season,” Dabb says, adding that the question really is if and how Jack will help them.

I thought Dean believed Mary was dead and didn't want too look for her.  I feel a Dean Winchester must learn to never give up on family lesson up coming up.  Because if there is one thing Dean really needs to learn is that you don't give up on family. 

Quote

The son of Lucifer is a “blank slate” when season 13 starts, which allows the show to play with the question of whether nature or nurture means the most to who a person becomes.

Translating from Dabb-ese.  "We have no clue what were doing with Jack because none of us shared ideas with each other.  He's just going to be whatever we need him to be for a particular episode.  Don't expect continuity.'

Quote

“As much as last season was about Sam and Dean being kids, this season is about them as parents,” Dabb says, adding that Jack begins to see the Winchesters as “role models.”

I didn't see the Winchesters being kids, since Mary wanted nothing to do with them.  The majority of effort came from Dean trying to reach out to Mary.  I'd say Dean was still more the parent last season than Mary since he did the majority of forgiving, apologizing, accepting blame, and compromising, despite being the one who was lied to and betrayed all season.  That's what parents do. 

As for the "The Winchester's" being role models I suspect that will play out like "The Winchester's" being generals. 

Quote

On the flip side, Dean and Sam begin to see themselves reflected in Jack at times. “Sam was cursed with powers for a big chunk of the show, and Dean sees this kid who is eager to please his dad and wonders if he’s turning into his father,” Dabb says. “And we say with kids all of the time, you hope they get your best qualities, but sometimes they get your worst qualities. Sam and Dean have been through dark times, and that’s something Jack will be exposed to.”

I'll believe we see the Dean side of this when it plays out on screen.

Quote

“The new Michael is a warrior. He already killed the Lucifer of his world, so it’s a new point of view. He doesn’t care about our Lucifer, and he doesn’t care about Dean – at least not at first,” Dabb says.

See above point.  If Michael is interested in Dean, it will be for a hot minute until he sets his sights on Jack or Sam. 

Quote

“Dean, and Jack to a great extent, had a great bond with Castiel, and they have to marinate a little bit and feel the loss.

Does Dabb have to diminish everything about Dean?  His bond with Castiel was built up over many seasons and had many highs and lows.  Now, Jack has the same level.  When did Jack and Cas bond?  I remember Jack brainwashing Cas, can someone point out the episodes I missed where this happened.  

Does this mean we see more of Jack being sad about Cas then Dean?

Edited October 9, 2017 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

29 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Does Dabb have to diminish everything about Dean?  His bond with Castiel was built up over many seasons and had many highs and lows.  Now, Jack has the same level.  When did Jack and Cas bond?  I remember Jack brainwashing Cas, can someone point out the episodes I missed where this happened.  

Does this mean we see more of Jack being sad about Cas then Dean?

The only bonding that happened was in utero and when Spawn took control over Cas to kill Dagon. Maybe it was just so powerful that Cas lost his ability to think clearly. Maybe it was Spawn that compelled Cas to think he could kill Lucifer in the AU when Cas knows that wasn't going to work.

47 minutes ago, Jakes said:

Dabb was talking about Dean as Sam as kids to Mary...as sons.  Now instead as proto-parents to Jack

 Kids is specific to young children not adult children. Mary rejected her adult children. And yes I got the part about them being quasi parents to Spawn. That wasn't my question.

[DittyDotDot]

Personally, I think the way both Sam and Dean responded to Mary was them as kids in a way. Again, I don't think Dabb meant they were literally children, but in Mary's presence they both seemed to regress to teenagers at times.

ETA: Sorry, new page, I was responding to someone asking what Dabb was talking about when he said S12 was sometimes about Sam and Dean being kids.

Edited October 9, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

23 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Personally, I think the way both Sam and Dean responded to Mary was them as kids in a way. Again, I don't think Dabb meant they were literally children, but in Mary's presence they both seemed to regress to teenagers at times.

ETA: Sorry, new page, I was responding to someone asking what Dabb was talking about when he said S12 was sometimes about Sam and Dean being kids.

How did they regress to being teenagers other than MAYBE in 12.3 when she bailed on them after comparing them in her head to her WeeChesters and finding them wanting? Dean didn't want her empty hug. Just because the show made Dean say he was acting like 14 year old girl doesn't mean he was.   Other than those two occasions when did Dean act like a teenager around Mary?

[DittyDotDot]

39 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

How did they regress to being teenagers other than MAYBE in 12.3 when she bailed on them after comparing them in her head to her WeeChesters and finding them wanting? Dean didn't want her empty hug. Just because the show made Dean say he was acting like 14 year old girl doesn't mean he was.   Other than those two occasions when did Dean act like a teenager around Mary?

As I said, I don't think the comment was meant literally, but that the dynamic they set up with Mary had them being sons again for the first time since S1. There were many times they reacted to Mary as teenagers would--and I'm not just talking about Dean here--which I think is natural considering that Sam and Dean never had a normal parent/child relationships. It wasn't a criticism of their characters, for Chuck's sake, but an observation of how the dynamic with Mary was set up from the beginning.

[catrox14]

39 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

As I said, I don't think the comment was meant literally, but that the dynamic they set up with Mary had them being sons again for the first time since S1. There were many times they reacted to Mary as teenagers would--and I'm not just talking about Dean here--which I think is natural considering that Sam and Dean never had a normal parent/child relationships. It wasn't a criticism of their characters, for Chuck's sake, but an observation of how the dynamic with Mary was set up from the beginning.

I was  trying to understand why you see that dynamic because I didn't at all, which is why I was asking what you saw and including the two examples I did. Not saying you're wrong, I'm just trying to see what things you saw that left you with that impression. That's all.

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Um. When was last season about Dean and Sam as kids? WTF is Dabb babbling about here?

I agree with @DittyDotDot on this one. I think Dabb was talking about general family role dynamics. And I agree with DDD's interpretation of how they reacted as well.

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I feel a Dean Winchester must learn to never give up on family lesson up coming up. 

I'm not so sure that I feel that, because we know that Michael from the AU is going to be a problem, and how that occurs I think is going to be because of wanting to get Mary back... So I'm getting more of a season 8, letting dead stay dead, not poking portals to dangerous places kinda theme, except with Dean... and this time it will end up being the right thing to do with the narrative backing that up - in that opening the portal will lead to bad things, see that, Sam - rather than... whatever they did with Sam in season 8 which definitely wasn't that.

If they actually have Jack be "good" with no repercussions, I'll be really surprised. More likely it will be that Jack either ends up being good - but after a high cost - or Jack maybe tries to do good, but his intentions lead to bad - as in he tragically goes down an Adam path.

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I'll believe we see the Dean side of this when it plays out on screen.

I don't think either one of them will matter much after Castiel comes back, when I think they will be supplanted by Castiel. Dean not having gotten invested as much and also having connection with Castiel will likely be better off. Sam could either adopt a zen attitude about it or he might feel a little rejected.

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Does Dabb have to diminish everything about Dean?

At least Dean is featured here. Supposedly over the last few years, Castiel has built up a bond with Sam as well. For me, it was one of the few positive things that Carver era writers wrote for Sam, but Sam isn't even mentioned here as having any kind of bond with Castiel.

20 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm just trying to see what things you saw that left you with that impression.

I know you didn't ask, but for me, I think it was - on Dean's side - that he wanted Mary to stay with them, live under the same roof, go on hunts with them, etc. This isn't the more common dynamic with sons that are Dean's age. More often than not, sons at that age are wanting / enjoying freedom from Mom, doing things on their own, living their own life. I think Dean, because he missed out on all of the family stuff as a kid, still wanted that "closeness" and time with Mom that many men at that age aren't necessarily needing any more and are maybe even actively rebelling a little against.

For Sam, I think he adopted a different kind of "teen" dynamic... the one where he's afraid to call Mom out because he doesn't want to be rejected. This also isn't what men his age are usually doing, because they normally have a history by this time and have already gotten the approval - or made some kind of peace that they aren't going to get it entirely - by this time in their lives and are more likely to stick up for themselves and/or voice their own wants and needs.

And of course both of these somewhat "kid" (as in son) dynamics from them were understandable in that they hadn't had the usual family dynamics that lead up to the usual desire of a son to fundamentally split from his mother by this time and want his freedom from "mothering." You can't necessarily build up to wanting freedom from mothering that you haven't really had yet, and so the unusual dynamic is understandable - to me anyway - but at the same time is not what usually happens with men of Sam and Dean's age - also in my opinion - when the family dynamic is more typical.

That's what - for me - made Sam and Dean's interaction with Mary seem a bit more teenager / young adult like than the usual dynamic for men of that age. That doesn't mean that anyone had to agree with me on that. That's just my opinion.

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I know you didn't ask, but for me, I think it was - on Dean's side - that he wanted Mary to stay with them, live under the same roof, go on hunts with them, etc. This isn't the more common dynamic with sons that are Dean's age. More often than not, sons at that age are wanting / enjoying freedom from Mom, doing things on their own, living their own life. I think Dean, because he missed out on all of the family stuff as a kid, still wanted that "closeness" and time with Mom that many men at that age aren't necessarily needing any more and are maybe even actively rebelling a little against.

Under normal circumstances, but this was anything but normal. Mary was just resurrected back into the world after 30 years of being dead. She didn't feel comfortable in this world yet, and Dean himself didn't really now how to relate to her and called Cas asking for help.

I think Dean was concerned for her safety until she adjusted a bit more.  I absolutely don't think he expected her to be there to do his laundry, cook, clean or any other kind of stereotypical Mom stuff.  Mary is the one that mentioned about not cooking. He complimented her on her take out choices.  To me, Dean would have been happy just for her to be around doing whatever or nothing at all. IMO, he didn't want anything from her except her presence, which to me seems pretty darn reasonable, given their bizarre situation.

Edited October 10, 2017 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

To me, Dean would have been happy just for her to be around doing whatever or nothing at all. IMO, he didn't want anything from her except her presence, which to me seems pretty darn reasonable, given their bizarre situation.

And I didn't disagree that this wasn't reasonable or understandable given the situation - which I mentioned later on in my post. My only point was that this is not usually something you see in men Dean's age, because by then they are ready to not be hanging out with mom or even want to have mom around on any kind of general basis - and this also goes for moms and daughters too - because it's just the normal progression of independence from your parents. So Dean's completely understandable desire to have Mary even just be around is still in a way more of a teen / young adult thing than a son in his late 30s early 40s thing.

Cooking, laundry, etc. didn't even enter the equation for me. It was wanting Mom to even hang around that I was looking at. Because I don't think a lot of men - or women - that age would want that on a consistent basis. Of course there are exceptions, I'm not denying that.  Because there are mom / son and mom / daughter best friend type relationships. I'm just not one of those people. I love my mom, but we have more of a mom / daughter with all of the usual drama type relationships. I couldn't have imagined in my late 30s / early 40s wanting mom to hang around while I was trying to live my life. I'd have felt a bit cramped / restricted myself. But again, just my opinion on that.

[catrox14]

23 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And I didn't disagree that this wasn't reasonable or understandable given the situation - which I mentioned later on in my post. My only point was that this is not usually something you see in men Dean's age, because by then they are ready to not be hanging out with mom or even want to have mom around on any kind of general basis - and this also goes for moms and daughters too - because it's just the normal progression of independence from your parents. So Dean's completely understandable desire to have Mary even just be around is still in a way more of a teen / young adult thing than a son in his late 30s early 40s thing.

I don't quite agree with this. I loved spending time with my mom as an adult. Could we have lived together again? Hard to say. I did end up living with her for a long time as her caregiver and a lot of that was just nice time together.  It's like back in s1, when all Dean wanted was for him, John and Sam to be a family again. I didn't think he was being much like a teenager then either. I don't see it that way with Mary either.  

[ILoveReading]

39 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

which I mentioned later on in my post. My only point was that this is not usually something you see in men Dean's age, because by then they are ready to not be hanging out with mom or even want to have mom around on any kind of general basis - and this also goes for moms and daughters too - because it's just the normal progression of independence from your parents. So Dean's completely understandable desire to have Mary even just be around is still in a way more of a teen / young adult thing than a son in his late 30s early 40s thing.

I disagree. I have a great relationship with my mom and I still want her opinion on major and even minor things.  I  very much enjoy spending time with her.  I see her every day.  I don't consider that acting like a teenager.

I also disagree its a teenage thing for Dean or Sam because he lost their mom at an early age.  They were given this gift of having her back in their life.  I think that's all either one really wanted from her.  Was for her to be a part of their lives and get to know the men they became.  

When Mary left, even though it hurt, I think a part of Sam and Dean understood she needed space.  Dean even tried to define the boundaries of their relationship. IMO, a very adult thing.  He didn't call her and beg her to come back.   Both Sam and Dean were hurt when Mary pushed them away.  All the effort in that relationship came from Sam, and (mostly) Dean.  If anything I'd say they were far more the parent then Mary was. 

Mary made zero effort to include her sons in her life.  You (general you) can't blame them if they didn't exactly embrace Mary's excuses that she was doing it for them when her actions spoke otherwise. 

I believe what Dean said and what Mary heard were entirely two different things. 

When Dean said, be a mom, I thought it meant, just be part of our lives.  Mary heard bake me cookies.  It was Mary that was sneaking around, and lying.  Hanging around with people that she new to be bad news.  (They tortured  her sons after all).  Then digging in even deeper when the people that knew better said again it wasn't a good idea and pointed out several reasons why.   That IMO if far more teenage behavior than wanting to get to know your mother, or just wanting to get to spend time with her or being hurt when she rejects you. 

So I don't see Sam or Dean being kids last season because they very much had to be the adults in the Mary situation.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And I didn't disagree that this wasn't reasonable or understandable given the situation - which I mentioned later on in my post. My only point was that this is not usually something you see in men Dean's age, because by then they are ready to not be hanging out with mom or even want to have mom around on any kind of general basis - and this also goes for moms and daughters too - because it's just the normal progression of independence from your parents. So Dean's completely understandable desire to have Mary even just be around is still in a way more of a teen / young adult thing than a son in his late 30s early 40s thing.

I don't think age really enters into it here.  We're talking about two people--of whatever age--who suddenly and miraculously got back someone who'd been dead for most of their lives, someone who'd become almost mythic in their family.  Who wouldn't want to have them around, if only to get to know the real person behind the myth?  Sam especially I would think would like the chance to get to know Mary--not necessarily as a "mom," but as a person, just like he was excited to meet her in The Song Remains the Same.  

Most teens separate from their parents because they need that "progression of independence" to become adults in their own right.   Sam and Dean are already independent men, and have nothing to prove.  TBH, if my grandparents, who've been dead for over 50 years, suddenly returned,  I'd love to have them around, just so I could get to know them as an adult, not because I want them to spoil me or buy me presents like they did when I was 8.  

[AwesomO4000]

36 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It's like back in s1, when all Dean wanted was for him, John and Sam to be a family again.

But Sam didn't look at that way - "I don't see family the same way you do." He saw his progression as leaving home and going on his own way.  His idea of family included his going off on his own to do his own thing, and being a semi-independent entity from his family... and when John didn't agree, he kicked Sam out of the family. For me, that Sam wanted to leave and go to college doesn't mean he necessarily didn't want to belong to the family - at least until he was forced to choose - or even if he did at that point want to break from the family that he didn't want to one day return after he had a chance to grow up a bit.

Also the interesting thing - and maybe an unpopular opinion here - is that for me, the family dynamic that Dean was wanting again was not a healthy one. From what I saw, John did not treat Dean like an equal adult. He was very much the "general" doling out information as he saw fit and expecting Dean to follow his lead without question when they were together. To me, this is not an equal adult relationship even though Dean was an adult - at 26 - and very much was able to function on his own as an independent adult and make smart decisions, even when it came to hunting... But with John, that was all thrown out of whack and family dynamics - where Dean was not treated as an equal - were, in my opinion, most likely the rule. Dean took the high road and arguably was the responsible one for accepting that dynamic for the greater good, but I contend that it was not necessarily a positive dynamic nor one that represented two adults interacting on an equal playing field. If Dean was okay with that lesser role, that was his choice, but it wasn't a choice without risks.

45 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't quite agree with this. I loved spending time with my mom as an adult. Could we have lived together again? Hard to say. I did end up living with her for a long time as her caregiver and a lot of that was just nice time together. 

I am glad you had that. I guess I envy that in a way. TMI alert: My mom lives with me now 1/2 the year (out of necessity and due to circumstances I had little say in, since she had nowhere else to go), but she has her own space. We interact some, but not for long periods of time unless we are going out to eat, shopping, etc., because otherwise family dynamics take over. I'd like it to be different, but my Mom isn't going to change and I can't change enough either it seems to counteract the family stuff. She sees me as a "kid" a lot. If I suggest something important, she usually won't consider it, because it's me. (And I'm not the only one who notices this dynamic). She pretends to listen, but I know she's not really considering it. There's a truth problem as well, since I can't always trust what she's telling me, and it's lead to major problems when I've trusted her in the past and been totally burned. So I guess that colors my way of seeing things. I just see leaving home to go on your own for at least a while to become your own person as a usual - or at least one version of usual - part of a family dynamic.

40 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I disagree. I have a great relationship with my mom and I still want her opinion on major and even minor things.  I  very much enjoy spending time with her.  I see her every day.  I don't consider that acting like a teenager.

I apologize for making it sound like I was implying that this was the only way to look at it. As I said above, I realize that there are relationships like this, and as I told catrox above, I'm glad that you have that kind of relationship, but when thinking of the usual family dynamic - at least for this country or culture - usually it's that children leave home to go to college, get a job, a home and family of their own. That isn't always the case in other cultures where generations live together under one roof.

And as I said, I'm not even saying that my way of looking at it is the only one or that I think that it's being like a "teenager" to have this kind of relationship (and I tried to say that - obviously not well) or that what Dean and Sam wanted was at all unreasonable. I was trying to say that maybe this is how Dabb was looking at it... and that I could see how that interpretation could be arrived at. As always other interpretations are also valid and might even be better than mine... probably more likely than not.

11 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Most teens separate from their parents because they need that "progression of independence" to become adults in their own right.   Sam and Dean are already independent men, and have nothing to prove. 

I can see this, but (yes the annoying "but") also wasn't part of the reason that Dean felt hurt and rejected was because he felt that Mary wasn't necessarily interested in the man that he became versus the little boy he was in her heaven memories? And in a way that is maybe because Dean wanted Mary to know him now (as well as him know her), so in a way maybe Dean did think he had a little bit to prove to Mary. I don't think that's unreasonable, but it goes to the family dynamic thing that I was talking about. Wanting to get recognition from your parent is a more child (as in mother/child not necessarily young child) dynamic, to me anyway. And again, I can entirely see that interpretation, because in my opinion, it peppered Dean's relationship with John, too. It was how Dean was raised - his importance = how his family saw him / what he could do for his family. I entirely get that. And to me, that's not an easy thing to shake, even if Dean is grown now... so Dean wanting recognition from Mary entirely makes sense and is tied up in the family dynamic... yes, even as Dean was being more of the parent in other ways (as expressed by @ILoveReading above.) Still to me, that part: Dean wanting Mary to see him as a grown man, is very much a child/mother thing while Mary - even as she's technically (supposed to be) younger than Dean - doesn't feel that she has to "prove" herself to Dean (feels almost entitled to be taken as is) - is more of a parent thing.

Again my opinion only on all of this.

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

. I just see leaving home to go on your own for at least a while to become your own person as a usual - or at least one version of usual - part of a family dynamic.

Oh I agree that it is normal. I went to college an hour from my childhood home and ome after college, I moved to SoCal. I never lived in the same city as my mom again until she got ill and I stayed with her. But I talked to her all the time on the phone and would spend a few weeks a year with her on visits. So maybe that's what kept us connected.

My point was more that to me given the weird ass circumstance with Mary's resurrection, that him wanting that connection was not  regressive or teenage like IMO. He just wanted that connection.   I also didn't have the impression Dean expected them to live together for the rest of their lives but mostly until the connected and Mary was adjusted better.

Of course, now with spoilers saying that  Dean is giving up Mary for dead in the AU, that notion of Dean being so needy for mommy goes out the window, too LOL. Oh writers, you don't care about consistent characterization anymore, do you?

Edited October 10, 2017 by catrox14

[Myrelle]

13 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

“Dean, and Jack to a great extent, had a great bond with Castiel, and they have to marinate a little bit and feel the loss.

Not looking forward to this at all. More hand-wringing from Dean.

And when they bring Cas back, I'll bet the ranch that he won't even remember Dean and Dean will have to "prove" his love for Cas all over again and some more to get through to him. Ugh. I'm making myself sick reading these spoilers and anything that Dabb spews lately.

I think the Michael/Dean reference was made to quell the presently very turbulent Dean fandom waters, and that is all.

[catrox14]

I'm really not getting a good feeling about what's going on with Castiel. I don't know why Dabb insists on changing Castiel here. I don't know why Dabb insists on changing Dean and having him give up Mary for dead or having to be told that hey Maybe a rift can be opened, when Dean has been to other dimensions and come through portals himself. NO LOGIC, Mr Dabb.  The weird thing for me is that Misha specifically said at TorCon that his favorite version of Cas is just regular Castiel, yet the show keeps altering him. I don't know what they are going to do with Cas that makes him a "changed character" which almost sounds like a permanent change.

It really does make me nervous and no  amount of telling me not to worry is going to change that I do worry for him.  I worry for what is going to happen to the relationship between Dean and Cas when he does return. They have had 9 years of building a really interesting and important relationship and I don't want to see it dismantled at it's core because Cas is a "changed character".  I'm really apprehensive about it.

 My head canon is that Dean will have had a mini stroke due to the sudden overwhelming shock of watching his frienemy kill himself, his  BF be murdered, and his mom kidnapped, by Lucifer,  in such a short span of time, like minutes, that Dean just short circuits. It's the only way I can see for Dean to just be like "It's hopeless" re Mary.

If that is what they do with Dean, and give sudden overwhelming grief and loss a fair and moving analysis, then fair play to the show, but I really don't think Dabb has the deft hand to do it adequate justice.  

[ILoveReading]

31 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

If that is what they do with Dean, and give sudden overwhelming grief and loss a fair and moving analysis, then fair play to the show, but I really don't think Dabb has the deft hand to do it adequate justice.  

I think they really need to put up or shut up with Dean's so called grief arcs.  Dean's been taken to the edge so many times, with things just kind of just ending or dropped. 

I never really believed it was a thing to begin with though.  Mostly because during comic con when they said Dean would think Mary was dead, Bob Singer pinched his ear, like you'd do to a little kid.  There was no talk about Dean finally reaching his breaking point or anything like that.  I think that was Jensen's interpretation and the only way he can make sense of it in his head.  Then Dabb just leaned over and copied Jensen's answer.

Jensen's less than enthusiastic tweet tells me there isn't much actually happening for Dean.

A Dean who well and truly snapped, and capable writers, I think would be very interesting to watch.  But I don't' think is the writers intention.    Unfortunately, I think we've probably seen the majority of it in the trailer.  We'll get a scene where Dean is sad, maybe one where he's angry.  Then Missouri will set him straight and that will be that.

[Jonesy]

23 hours ago, catrox14 said:

The only bonding that happened was in utero and when Spawn took control over Cas to kill Dagon. Maybe it was just so powerful that Cas lost his ability to think clearly. Maybe it was Spawn that compelled Cas to think he could kill Lucifer in the AU when Cas knows that wasn't going to work.

 Kids is specific to young children not adult children. Mary rejected her adult children. And yes I got the part about them being quasi parents to Spawn. That wasn't my question.

Come on you know Dabb meant the boys as kids to Mary even if its not the exact usage.  It's what he meant.  And yes Jack has clearly connected to Cas in utero.  Clearly where they are going.  And no I see it as Cas just losing it and attacking Lucifer on his own--from what we know Jack likes both Cas and Lucifer by them saying Dean is worried because Jack wants to impress Lucy. 

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I'm really not getting a good feeling about what's going on with Castiel. I don't know why Dabb insists on changing Castiel here. I don't know why Dabb insists on changing Dean and having him give up Mary for dead or having to be told that hey Maybe a rift can be opened, when Dean has been to other dimensions and come through portals himself. NO LOGIC, Mr Dabb.  The weird thing for me is that Misha specifically said at TorCon that his favorite version of Cas is just regular Castiel, yet the show keeps altering him. I don't know what they are going to do with Cas that makes him a "changed character" which almost sounds like a permanent change.

It really does make me nervous and no  amount of telling me not to worry is going to change that I do worry for him.  I worry for what is going to happen to the relationship between Dean and Cas when he does return. They have had 9 years of building a really interesting and important relationship and I don't want to see it dismantled at it's core because Cas is a "changed character".  I'm really apprehensive about it.

 My head canon is that Dean will have had a mini stroke due to the sudden overwhelming shock of watching his frienemy kill himself, his  BF be murdered, and his mom kidnapped, by Lucifer,  in such a short span of time, like minutes, that Dean just short circuits. It's the only way I can see for Dean to just be like "It's hopeless" re Mary.

If that is what they do with Dean, and give sudden overwhelming grief and loss a fair and moving analysis, then fair play to the show, but I really don't think Dabb has the deft hand to do it adequate justice.  

You can worry all you like but Misha has clearly said Cas really totally feels like family with the Winchesters this year and that they are on the same page.  Cas still connected with the boys and having the same relationship.  We'll find out by fairly early in the season and I totally believe at least this worry of yours will be gone by then.  Same old real Cas.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Jakes

[Aeryn13]

Seeing the recent Con vid with Sam Smith and the actress enthusiastically spouting what is IMO more or less the party line about Mary that comes from the writers, I do not foresee any turn of events that redeems the writing for the character in any way. More faux-coolness and supposed badassery while she skates by on being incredibly self-centered and bitchy and of course all is well with the relationships with her sons.

No way the character is going to be humbled and taken down a peg because I highly doubt the writers and the actress thinks she needs to be. I very much disagree, she would only be even remotely salvageable to me if she got ripped ten new ones but that is not gonna happen. 

Missouri only interacting with Dean, sigh. That is gonna be the "suck it up, lesson". At least the episode doesn`t pretend this "the Winchesters will be parents to Spawn" stuff. I have no idea why they don`t just specifically say it`s gonna be Sam who is reasonably and zen about everything in the history of ever.

Of course there was never any doubt about Spawn`s inherent goodness under Dabb so Jensen pretty much confirming it is hardly a shocker. Yawn.

Spawn has a deep bond with Cas? Sure. Whatever. Cas comes back as a new-ish character basically? Well, his place as the "kinda naive, otherworldly" character has been usurped by Spawn so of course.  

That "at least not at first" part of Michael`s disinterest in Dean, don`t make me laugh, Dabb. Not at first and not ever. Like I`m gonna fall for that "they will be generals" bullshit again.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

18 hours ago, catrox14 said:

 Kids is specific to young children not adult children. Mary rejected her adult children.

Fwiw - my dad still refers to my siblings and I as his kids (or 'you kids' when he's talking to us.)  And we are all adults (doctor, lawyer, analyst, and engineer).  It doesn't bother me in the slightest.  ::shrug::

[DittyDotDot]

14 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Fwiw - my dad still refers to my siblings and I as his kids (or 'you kids' when he's talking to us.)  And we are all adults (doctor, lawyer, analyst, and engineer).  It doesn't bother me in the slightest.  ::shrug::

I grew up out West and now live in the Midwest. When I first moved here I noticed everyone was a "kid". Didn't matter how old you were. One of my co-workers used to call my editor "kid" and they're only a couple years apart. I'm somewhat sad I ever remarked on it because he doesn't do it anymore and I do adore these sort of cultural colloquialisms.

That being said, yes, my mother still calls me and my siblings kids and we're all older than Sam and Dean.  ::shrugs::

[catrox14]

Not thrilled with Dean being lectured here, but holy shit, the hitch in Dean's voice with

'Cas is....' He couldn't say it. He couldn't say Cas is dead. That was a great bit of ackting by Jensen that tells me that Dean just cannot process or vocalize that Cas is dead.  I get that totally. I couldn't say that about my mom when I learned she had passed away.

 

 

[gonzosgirrl]

Sigh. Looks like it will be everything I dreaded. Superior Sam schooling Reckless, Goon Dean. Is there even one writer who knows more than this caricature of the character? #rhetorical

[Myrelle]

Yup. More lessons for RecklessThoughtlessDean coming right up because that's what everyone who watches this show is just dying to see.  Can't wait.<insert eye roll here>

And we already know it from Jensen's advice to his character from the last convention. Ugh. I wish season 13A was done and over with already.

[ILoveReading]

Dean's instincts are the one thing Dean managed to hand onto last season.  Guess those had to go.

Because if Cas is back and but not alive, then it will be something else Dean gets lectured over later about how he can't even tell the difference.

Edited October 12, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Wayward Son]

3 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I started watching Adventures in Babysitting last night (only got a few minutes in before I got distracted and had to stop) but in light of the end of S12 and how we know S13 is going to start, the beginning of this ep with the boys mourning Bobby really resonated.  Especially that Week 1, when they're both just sitting in the cabin staring into space.  

Heh, when Bobby died he got three weeks of inaction due to grief! By the sounds of things Cas won’t even get a night of mourning LOL

Edited October 12, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Aeryn13]

It was pretty clear Spawn was gonna be good and Sam proven right from the moment they introduced this. As for the clip, it is also exactly the annoying dynamic I envisioned. Sam will pontificate, to prove how wise he is and Dean will be "kill kill kill", to prove how unreasonable he is. It is childishly simplistic without any nuance. 

We also know Dean will "aquiesce" so I expect one or two more of such scenes and it will go Sam`s way.

Maybe that means by episode 2 we can give those obnoxious scenes a rest.

Normally I don`t like it when Dean folds but in this case I`m all for him just whatevering because of the hope of losing the lecture scenes. It`s like fighting a God-mode character in a game, it`s just pointless because you are not gonna win anyway. 

Edited October 12, 2017 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

Heh, when Bobby died he got three weeks of inaction due to grief! By the sounds of things Cas won’t even get a night of mourning LOL

Dean wasn't being inactive. He was obsessed with finding Dick Roman. That had been going on in the 3 weeks after*** Bobby's death and Dean getting his cast off. ***

But to me, given that grief manifests itself in various stages of anger, denial, depression, bargaining, acceptance and it comes and goes in waves and in no particular order, I'm not jumping to the conclusion that Dean's grief will be quick and easy.

Seems to me in that clip it's showing that Dean is somewhat in denial of Cas' death by virtue of him not even being able to vocalize it. Sam says "So is Cas...really dead" and the only thing Dean can say, angrily, "You know he is". Dean still can't speak those words. That's grief. 

According to Misha, at the TorCon, Dean puts the sheet over Cas' face, and Misha said that Dean is visibly upset by this.  So again, Dean is grieving. Dean will take his grief rage out on Spawn in the short term.

What I'm keeping in mind is that Cas isn't supposed to see the boys again until EP 6.  So that is 6 episodes wherein we might very well see moments of Dean's grief process, and probably some of Sam's as well.

***I confused my episodes as others pointed out.

Edited October 12, 2017 by catrox14

[shang yiet]

Damn, same old dynamics. Only Dean is allowed to have feelings and grieve. Just like after John and Bobby died. Meanwhile Sam is all zen. So boring. Switch it up, writers!

[Casseiopeia]

Hey I'm just happy they're talking to each other about events that are happening atm.  Last season the Winchesters were being kept out of loop almost the entire season.  Dialog aside I hope this means that the brothers will be engaged with the show instead of being background to everyone else's journey.

[ahrtee]

32 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Heh, when Bobby died he got three weeks of inaction due to grief! By the sounds of things Cas won’t even get a night of mourning LOL

Hmmm...the other day you said Dean was being OTT and phony when he mourned Cas's death in season 7 (or was that just because Cas had just tried to kill him and the world and therefore he shouldn't be missed?) and now you're saying he's not mourning him *enough.*  They're both still the same characters, with the same shared history.  Dean is allowed to mourn however he needs to, whether denial, shutting down or getting angry/driven (and he's done all three IMO over the years.)  There's no quantitative measurement for grief.  It's different *every damn time.*  (Having just gone through losing both parents, two aunts and several important friends of the family in the past few years, I can guarantee that.)  

[Wayward Son]

14 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Hmmm...the other day you said Dean was being OTT and phony when he mourned Cas's death in season 7 (or was that just because Cas had just tried to kill him and the world and therefore he shouldn't be missed?) and now you're saying he's not mourning him *enough.*  They're both still the same characters, with the same shared history.  Dean is allowed to mourn however he needs to, whether denial, shutting down or getting angry/driven (and he's done all three IMO over the years.)  There's no quantitative measurement for grief.  It's different *every damn time.*  (Having just gone through losing both parents, two aunts and several important friends of the family in the past few years, I can guarantee that.)  

To be fair they actually don’t have the same shared history. What I mean is that the two characters have been through a lot in the six years that have passed since season seven and now. I’d consider modern Dean and Cas to have a much stronger relationship than the Dean and Cas of season 7, of course that’s just MO. So I personally, and of course I’m only speaking for myself, wouldn’t have the same issues with Dean grieving now that I have with season 7. 

 

I’m sorry to hear about your own losses. 

[gonzosgirrl]

29 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Hey I'm just happy they're talking to each other about events that are happening atm.  Last season the Winchesters were being kept out of loop almost the entire season.  Dialog aside I hope this means that the brothers will be engaged with the show instead of being background to everyone else's journey.

There is that, but I have a feeling between Super!Mary and the AU, and the Wayward Whatevers, the boys will be supporting characters once again. Well, unless they all muster under General Sam F. Winchester that is. ;)

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Dean wasn't being inactive. He was obsessed with finding Dick Roman. That had been going on in the 3 weeks between Bobby's death and Dean getting his cast off. 

Yeah, it was only the "Week One" brief clip that showed both guys staring into space.  (And I doubt they did that for a week straight.  I mean they had to eat after all.)  By Week 2 and Week 3, they were actively doing stuff.  

But I think you might have the cast confused with a different ep?  Dean wasn't wearing a cast in Adventures in Babysitting that I recall.  

And of course those who point out that grief manifests itself differently for different people in different stages of their life are right.  

[ahrtee]

37 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

To be fair they actually don’t have the same shared history. What I mean is that the two characters have been through a lot in the six years that have passed since season seven and now. I’d consider modern Dean and Cas to have a much stronger relationship than the Dean and Cas of season 7, of course that’s just MO. So I personally, and of course I’m only speaking for myself, wouldn’t have the same issues with Dean grieving now that I have with season 7. 

 

I’m sorry to hear about your own losses. 

All I'm saying is that Dean has been shown to grieve in different ways over the years, and it doesn't (necessarily) have anything to do with his relationship to the one lost.  He shut down with Bobby, was driven to hunt after John, and was in denial the last two times Cas (supposedly) died (I'm including Cas being left/staying behind in Purgatory here).  And in all cases, he eventually wound up driven to hunt, because that's Dean's MO when he's overwhelmed--give him something specific to focus on/kill.  So I don't see anything wrong with Dean going straight to hunting here, because he's pushing down his grief and focusing on something he *can* do, just like he did with John.  Sometimes when you're truly overwhelmed, having something else to focus on is the only thing that can keep you going.

Edited October 12, 2017 by ahrtee

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

But I think you might have the cast confused with a different ep?  Dean wasn't wearing a cast in Adventures in Babysitting that I recall.  

You are right. For some reason I had in my head that Dean was in his cast lying on the couch watching telenovelas mourning Bobby, but Bobby was there asking about some telenovela plot point. Holy moly! Sometimes I mix up s6 and s7 episodes. LOL Thanks for that correction

[Wayward Son]

16 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Yeah, it was only the "Week One" brief clip that showed both guys staring into space.  (And I doubt they did that for a week straight.  I mean they had to eat after all.)  By Week 2 and Week 3, they were actively doing stuff.  

But I think you might have the cast confused with a different ep?  Dean wasn't wearing a cast in Adventures in Babysitting that I recall.  

And of course those who point out that grief manifests itself differently for different people in different stages of their life are right.  

I’m near the end of a season 7 rewatch and IIRC correctly he wore a cast at the beginning of The Girl Next Door. It was a result of his injuries fighting the Levithians during Hello, Cruel World. They put it on Dean at Sioux Fall general and Dean sawed it off when Sam disappeared to track down Amy. 

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I’m near the end of a season 7 rewatch and IIRC correctly he wore a cast at the beginning of The Girl Next Door. It was a result of his injuries fighting the Levithians during Hello, Cruel World. They put it on Dean at Sioux Fall general and Dean sawed it off when Sam disappeared to track down Amy. 

Oh wait. So I was right about it being s7 that he had a cast just not after Bobby died. Okay well I'm not as dimwitted as I was feeling in that moment. I conflated early s7 with later s7.  It's all a blur

[RulerofallIsurvey]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Oh wait. So I was right about it being s7 that he had a cast just not after Bobby died. Okay well I'm not as dimwitted as I was feeling in that moment. I conflated early s7 with later s7.  It's all a blur

Well, you had the telenova thing right, if that makes you feel better!  Lol.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Well, you had the telenova thing right, if that makes you feel better!  Lol.

IT DOES! That's like the one thing from that episode that brought me pleasure!

[RulerofallIsurvey]

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

IT DOES! That's like the one thing from that episode that brought me pleasure!

Yeah, I liked that bit too.  

[Aeryn13]

http://variety.com/2017/tv/features/jared-padalecki-supernatural-season-13-premiere-interview-1202586094/

Quote

Buckner believes such profound grief causes “such inertia” that Dean may be immobilized at times. This may force Sam to “keep the training running.” 

Great, "immobilized" Dean. Doesn`t sound boring and useless at all. I`m having flashbacks to that atrocious scene where he literally froze and that  girl had to save herself from the monster. I`m beyond the point where I would kill to get action!Dean back.  

If Cas is back by ep 6, hopefully that crap stops then. 

Quote

The Winchesters’ feelings about themselves will get “transposed” onto how they “parent” Jack and help him deal with these threats. And executive producer Brad Buckner adds that will lend itself to scenes with Sam trying to give Jack lessons on how to harness his powers and only use them at specific times and for good. But gaining full control is going to be a “slow roll out.”

Well, he is welcome to that stuff with Jack. But it highlights that Dean won`t do any of that "parenting". I mean, Buckner doesn`t deem to speak about him all that much but if Dean is nihilistic and without hope, what is supposed to be there with Jack? I don`t know why they started this pervasive myth of the "two Dads". 

[ILoveReading]

12 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

http://variety.com/2017/tv/features/jared-padalecki-supernatural-season-13-premiere-interview-1202586094/

Great, "immobilized" Dean. Doesn`t sound boring and useless at all. I`m having flashbacks to that atrocious scene where he literally froze and that  girl had to save herself from the monster. I`m beyond the point where I would kill to get action!Dean back.  

If Cas is back by ep 6, hopefully that crap stops then. 

Well, he is welcome to that stuff with Jack. But it highlights that Dean won`t do any of that "parenting". I mean, Buckner doesn`t deem to speak about him all that much but if Dean is nihilistic and without hope, what is supposed to be there with Jack? I don`t know why they started this pervasive myth of the "two Dads". 

Called it that the Winchester's would be dad's just like the Winchester's would be generals.

[gonzosgirrl]

I think if Dean is still believing the worst and not looking for a way to re-open the rift after he's had a chance to do more than just breathe out and in again (ie, after a solid year), then I'll start comparing him to S8 Sam not looking for him. And if, when they do make it through or Mary makes it back, Dean makes her feel like coming back is an imposition to whatever life he's chosen to lead at that point, I'll be just as pissed at him as I was at S8 Sam. Until then, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

[shang yiet]

I'm sure Mary won't blame Dean for giving up. I'm sure she understands he was immobilised with grief. Perhaps we'll find she and Dean made a pact not to look for each other. That will absolve Dean for sure.

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, shang yiet said:

I'm sure Mary won't blame Dean for giving up. I'm sure she understands he was immobilised with grief. Perhaps we'll find she and Dean made a pact not to look for each other. That will absolve Dean for sure.

Indeed. I’m sure Mary will show the same empathy towards the grieving Dean that Dean showed towards a grieving Sam. She won’t dream of being judgemental, of belittling Dean constantly and then act surprised when Dean resents such treatment.

[catrox14]

If Dean bolts in grief, and a year passes and Mary shows up out of nowhere, and it's shown that Dean did nothing to look for her, and Sam has been doing all the searching, then I think it's apt comparison. But right now, I think it's too soon to jump to that comparison.

[gonzosgirrl]

37 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

I'm sure Mary won't blame Dean for giving up. I'm sure she understands he was immobilised with grief. Perhaps we'll find she and Dean made a pact not to look for each other. That will absolve Dean for sure.

If Mary finds out he was 'immobilised' for a year, ignoring not only her disappearance before his eyes, but the welfare of a kid in their charge (hmmm, another Jack anvil?), I'm 100% sure she'll have something to say about it. And if Dean then says, yeah, you were gone, probably dead but maybe just running for your life, but I met someone and got over it, so if you can't deal with that, then fuck off (or I will), I won't be surprised if she smacks him upside his head. But since we've only seen how Dean reacts after hours, not weeks/months, I'd say it's too soon to leap to those conclusions.

Or, what @catrox14 said.

39 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Indeed. I’m sure Mary will show the same empathy towards the grieving Dean that Dean showed towards a grieving Sam. She won’t dream of being judgemental, of belittling Dean constantly and then act surprised when Dean resents such treatment.

Meet you in Bitch/Jerk.