These Spoilers Suck: Bitter Speculation About SPN Spoilers

[ILoveReading]

Galaxy Brain

Quote

Galaxy Brain, also known as Expanding Brain, is a multi-panel exploitable image series comparing the brain size of a person relative to other variables. Though the expanding brain is usually implied to showcase intellectual superiority over various objects, it is more often used in an ironic sense to imply the opposite, where objects of derision are implied to be of higher standard than objects that are usually highly regarded. For example, when used with Whomst, a person who uses "who" will be shown with the smallest brain, while a person who uses the most ridiculous variation, i.e. "whomst'd've", will be shown with the largest brain.

I'm dreading this episode .

[ILoveReading]

http://www.ksitetv.com/supernatural/supernatural-last-call-images-description-released/199736/

Of course this episode has hurt Sam.  My guess is that he has a vision of Dean in trouble and they rush to save him. 

[Bali]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Galaxy Brain

For example, when used with Whomst, a person who uses "who" will be shown with the smallest brain, while a person who uses the most ridiculous variation, i.e. "whomst'd've", will be shown with the largest brain.

I'm dreading this episode .

Oh honestly, who says "Whomst"? This is 2019 America for crying out loud!

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, Bali said:

Oh honestly, who says "Whomst"? This is 2019 America for crying out loud!

I would literally LOL at anyone who used the word in conversation. Good grief.

[BoxManLocke]

In the thread for the latest episode, we were talking about the show being little more than a convention nowadays, and a few days later look at that : We've got Jensen and Christian Kane singing on stage. It just never stop this season.

Now I know that a moment like this is a lot less cynical that another character return or a baity cliffhanger with no payoff, and I'm glad some people will be able to enjoy it, but isn't it sad that this is all that's left to look forward to ? Essentially wondering if tonight is going to feature the kind of convention panel you actually enjoy ?

I miss compelling drama, complex plots, real character arcs... you know all that stuff that makes an actual tv show.

Btw the Cass/Sam stuff looks almost exactly identical to that season 9 episode where Cass tries to extract the remains of Gadreel's grace from Sam. It not only looks the exact same but feels like it too, mostly because the characters are exactly in the same place they were six years ago, they have not evolved at all.

[gonzosgirrl]

Meh. At this point, canon means nothing, storytelling has gone for shit, and they have no decent writers left. So if all that means is that I get to have a scene with Dean and his buddy singing (and singing well) for my memories, then I'll take it.

You know that Sam won't be relegated to bookend scenes like Dean was last week. I'm just curious (if curious means preemptively cringing and dreading) to see how many ways he and Cas will trash mean ol' Dean behind his back.

[ILoveReading]

So Dabb gives a TV guide interview and calls the character Leo, but his name is actually Lee.  But the writer of the ep is scared o correct.

This is a huge problem.  No communication

[gonzosgirrl]

49 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

So Dabb gives a TV guide interview and calls the character Leo, but his name is actually Lee.  But the writer of the ep is scared o correct.

This is a huge problem.  No communication

As you said elsewhere, in a nutshell this is what is wrong with the show under Dabb/Singer or whoever is in charge.

[ILoveReading]

Of course No Dean.  This is supposed to be the ep where Sam and Dean lose their mojo. 

It seems no fan fic trope is off limits.  I bet this doesn't go well for Dean, because he was probably only good with Kids because God mandated it.

This is probably false but isn't this Mark Sheppard's daughter?

[Aeryn13]

Toddler!Sam and Toddler!Cas? Are they serious. That sounds like a dumpster fire in the making. For Dean nothing changes anyway.

DarkKaia!Sue in episode 12? Urgh. 

[Lemuria]

Okay, question:  why would they cast two brothers to play Sam and Castiel as toddlers? In the casting, they seem to be going for a family resemblance, which makes no sense for Sam and one James Novak. 

[ILoveReading]

11 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Toddler!Sam and Toddler!Cas? Are they serious. That sounds like a dumpster fire in the making. For Dean nothing changes anyway.

DarkKaia!Sue in episode 12? Urgh. 

I read that Jack Sue is back in ep 9.  It was a post on Tumblr, but I couldn't find the link.

This will be a rough batch of episodes.

[Aeryn13]

19 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I read that Jack Sue is back in ep 9.  It was a post on Tumblr, but I couldn't find the link.

This will be a rough batch of episodes.

I thought he isn't gonna back till 11 or 12? Meh.

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I thought he isn't gonna back till 11 or 12? Meh.

I'm not sure how accurate that is.  There was no source listed, just that Jack was confirmed for episode 9. 

[7kstar]

34 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

Okay, question:  why would they cast two brothers to play Sam and Castiel as toddlers? In the casting, they seem to be going for a family resemblance, which makes no sense for Sam and one James Novak. 

Not really sure, as filming with babies and toddlers have time limits.  It's why they usually find twins to play a part.  So they can switch them out and keep shooting.

But what I see is major fan-fiction story lines that people love writing.  They love to make one of the brothers a child, depending on the writer's preference it can be little dean, little Sam or Cas and Sam.

So if we go with the popular fan-fiction stories, they should also do long lost sister to the brothers, Wee!Winchesters and whump stories galore on their favorite character.  De-aged stories are also popular but they've already de-aged Dean so maybe now they felt it was only fair to do it to Sam and Cas.

I know there is difference of opinion on how to shorten Cas, but I like Cas more than Cass.  So that's my story and sticking with it.

On 11/26/2019 at 4:04 PM, ILoveReading said:

So Dabb gives a TV guide interview and calls the character Leo, but his name is actually Lee.  But the writer of the ep is scared o correct.

This is a huge problem.  No communication

Also explains why none of the eps feel connected, everyone is writing in a vacuum and the one in charge isn't doing his job.  He doesn't have to do much but say this is where we are going and these are the points we must hit in each ep...so is it that Dabb is to disorganized or that he doesn't care?

I don't get him not caring because that will limit what he can do soon.  Maybe he's saved enough he doesn't have to work...it just doesn't make any sense.  He's already felt the death of his pilot but instead of learning from it...he's doing what?  This business is fickle you can't afford to burn bridges if you want to work in it!

Edited November 30, 2019 by 7kstar
hmm I think there is difference between much and must. lol

[gonzosgirrl]

57 minutes ago, 7kstar said:

De-aged stories are also popular but they've already de-aged Dean so maybe now they felt it was only fair to do it to Sam and Cas.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

I literally loathe these writers. Not reasonable to feel that way over a tv show, but there you go.

[Shannonsspirit]

38 minutes ago, 7kstar said:

Not really sure, as filming with babies and toddlers have time limits.  It's why they usually find twins to play a part.  So they can switch them out and keep shooting.

But what I see is major fan-fiction story lines that people love writing.  They love to make one of the brothers a child, depending on the writer's preference it can be little dean, little Sam or Cas and Sam.

So if we go with the popular fan-fiction stories, they should also do long lost sister to the brothers, Wee!Winchesters and whump stories galore on their favorite character.  De-aged stories are also popular but they've already de-aged Dean so maybe now they felt it was only fair to do it to Sam and Cas.

I know there is difference of opinion on how to shorten Cas, but I like Cas more than Cass.  So that's my story and sticking with it.

Also explains why none of the eps feel connected, everyone is writing in a vacuum and the one in charge isn't doing his job.  He doesn't have to do much but say this is where we are going and these are the points we must hit in each ep...so is it that Dabb is to disorganized or that he doesn't care?

I don't get him not caring because that will limit what he can do soon.  Maybe he's saved enough he doesn't have to work...it just doesn't make any sense.  He's already felt the death of his pilot but instead of learning from it...he's doing what?  This business is fickle you can't afford to burn bridges if you want to work in it!

Your frustration is palpable. I feel for you. The meta transcends the story. The season is laden with gimmicks and fanservice. Glaring plotholes, ignored canon and lore, disconnects from episode to episode are neatly wrapped up with trite convenience of Chuck, uber villian and bad writer. 

It's embarrassing, ridiculous, lazy and offensive, as the audience is being repeatedly beaten over the head with, "these are just stories we write."

I don't know what the purpose is, or why the general layout of the season was approved. No one on the team could actually think this is a good story. I'm rather surprised that the principal actors are agreeing to any of this mockery. 

When we get to the episode where they are ordinary people with colds and toothaches, flat tires and no skill at fighting monsters, it will supposedly be funny, for a New York minute. The writers gave them opportunity and motivation, over the years, to develop extraordinary lives, helping save the world, with legitimate reasons to hone their skills. A natural progression, that I think many could achieve. They were never super heroes. So the need to disempower them, as kryptonite with Superman, seems like a parody, an inside joke, with no understanding of the characters and the overall story. It's merely Chuck giveth and Chuck taketh away; because no one could have gotten there otherwise.

We have real heroes, ordinary people rising to extraordinary situations. Sam and Dean were always that. Andrew Dabb lives in a comic book and now Supernatural lives there, too.

[Shannonsspirit]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Ding! Ding! Ding!

I literally loathe these writers. Not reasonable to feel that way over a tv show, but there you go.

Yeah, I can't believe the amount of time and thought I have given to this. I never even knew such forums existed, or if I did it never occurred to me to read or write in them. A simple engagement for an hour or so, over the years, has turned into this monster at the end of this book.

[Castiels Cat]

2 hours ago, Shannonsspirit said:

Your frustration is palpable. I feel for you. The meta transcends the story. The season is laden with gimmicks and fanservice. Glaring plotholes, ignored canon and lore, disconnects from episode to episode are neatly wrapped up with trite convenience of Chuck, uber villian and bad writer. 

It's embarrassing, ridiculous, lazy and offensive, as the audience is being repeatedly beaten over the head with, "these are just stories we write."

I don't know what the purpose is, or why the general layout of the season was approved. No one on the team could actually think this is a good story. I'm rather surprised that the principal actors are agreeing to any of this mockery. 

When we get to the episode where they are ordinary people with colds and toothaches, flat tires and no skill at fighting monsters, it will supposedly be funny, for a New York minute. The writers gave them opportunity and motivation, over the years, to develop extraordinary lives, helping save the world, with legitimate reasons to hone their skills. A natural progression, that I think many could achieve. They were never super heroes. So the need to disempower them, as kryptonite with Superman, seems like a parody, an inside joke, with no understanding of the characters and the overall story. It's merely Chuck giveth and Chuck taketh away; because no one could have gotten there otherwise.

We have real heroes, ordinary people rising to extraordinary situations. Sam and Dean were always that. Andrew Dabb lives in a comic book and now Supernatural lives there, too.

Or it's an AU to torture them or prove a point which season 5 was full of albeit by much better writers. Both Gabriel and Zachariah pulled this kind of stuff on the Winchesters.

The thing is... their lives and the story was pre-destined. The Winchesters were supposed to play a part and according to Chuck Dean started going off script and Chuck apparently thought it was interesting and allowed his story to change and let Dean's TFW to be a thing.

But there was obviously something always going on because there was always another f'g Apocalypse every season and one brother or another needs saving or is sacrificing themselves like clockwork, something a depressed Dean laments towards the end of season 7. Something was rigging things against them always.

And we may disagree on what was going on with Amara in s 11... whatever  Chuck still just sat it out until it was almost too late instead of dealing with her himself. He was still writing the Winchester stories even if they were not being published per references in Fan Fiction and DCMS which means he was involved in their lives. And telling the one character who always takes responsibility for everything regardkess of his own actions that he is in fact responsible for the world is  a #1 dick move in my book and extremely manipulative under the circumstances. 

I don't think Chuck the writer as the big bad is a retcon. I don't think it is a bad way to end things. Michael's speech in Nihilism set it up beautifully as was the set-up with Mary, Dean and Jack's father-son relationship and Dean potentially sacrificing Jack for Mary's murder. The meta aspect could be interesting IF these writers were good and if they were invested in canon, worldbuilding, character arcs and mytharc. They aren't. They don't even understand the main characters beyond the most infantile and superficial bullet points.I have absolutely no expectations for this to develop into anything beyond bland fan pandering and teen angst super drama for Jack.

I know everyone blames Dabb. He certainly is the weakest showrunner the show has had however I think Singer's wife bears the most blame. The nepotism duo introduced LOL!canon, plotline amnesia and character arc continuity whiplash and their writing miasma has spread as their power has grown. They run the writers room now. The writing is just a hot mess as we can see.

[7kstar]

3 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

I know everyone blames Dabb. He certainly is the weakest showrunner the show has had however I think Singer's wife bears the most blame. The nepotism duo introduced LOL!canon, plotline amnesia and character arc continuity whiplash and their writing miasma has spread as their power has grown. They run the writers room now. The writing is just a hot mess as we can see.

I direct middle school kids in productions, if it is bad I get the blame because I'm the director.  We've been doing this for a very long time.

Dabb is in charge, the director so to speak but he isn't making things stronger.  He's allowing Singer's wife to do what she wants.  Perhaps they all really believe they are doing a fine job, group think, and anyone that disagrees is too scared to say anything - it is a poisoning environment.

I was quitting as last season was enough for me to say time to move on.  Since it is the last season, I will watch the train wreck but just like last season I didn't watch all the shows, I've only watched two so far.  It's when I have time and Older shows have taken priority over Supernatural.  So if your super excited...no biggie.

Could the ending have been powerful, but like so many times in the past what they think they are creating and what is happening on the screen are two different things.  The jokes are now at the expense and bringing someone back to just kill them off...well I've never been a fan of that.

The only part I'm excited to see is Christian Kane and Jensen singing together because I've been wanting to see that for a long time.  lol.  If they turn Christian into a whimp...heads may roll....

[Castiels Cat]

16 hours ago, 7kstar said:

I direct middle school kids in productions, if it is bad I get the blame because I'm the director.  We've been doing this for a very long time.

Dabb is in charge, the director so to speak but he isn't making things stronger.  He's allowing Singer's wife to do what she wants.  Perhaps they all really believe they are doing a fine job, group think, and anyone that disagrees is too scared to say anything - it is a poisoning environment.

I was quitting as last season was enough for me to say time to move on.  Since it is the last season, I will watch the train wreck but just like last season I didn't watch all the shows, I've only watched two so far.  It's when I have time and Older shows have taken priority over Supernatural.  So if your super excited...no biggie.

Could the ending have been powerful, but like so many times in the past what they think they are creating and what is happening on the screen are two different things.  The jokes are now at the expense and bringing someone back to just kill them off...well I've never been a fan of that.

The only part I'm excited to see is Christian Kane and Jensen singing together because I've been wanting to see that for a long time.  lol.  If they turn Christian into a whimp...heads may roll....

I don't think they can control the boss's wife which is why nepotism scripts have been a hot mess since they were hired as permanent staff and there has been an exodus from the writers room of the established talent who previously appeared to be committed to the show. Everyone is professional yet there were grumblings below the surface. I mean Glass departs pretty quickly after he is put in charge of the writers room and then Robbie does the same. Carver appears to have had a tight editorial reign on writers when he wanted it (Reichenbach is so very good and so ery steeped in his earlier scripts that his hand is evident) yet it's equally obvious he was unable to edit nepotism scripts at all.

Dabb may be weaker than previous showrunners for reasons that are unclear to us. The nepotism duo now runs the writers room. Their editorial status is evident by their inclusion at CC and Jus in Bello panels.

Whatever you may think of Dabb he at least gave Dean a storyline and kept it going through Nihilism. I heard Eugenie scrapped it for Just Jack and based on her assumptions about the Riverdale crowd this rumor seems more than plausible. 

It sucks. It's just as well. The current writers are hacks, hence Dabbler and Hacks. I thought the 300th episode was drivel only saved by the acting of the Winchesters. Now we know the stupid teens were only shoe horned for Jack angst later in the season. This season is going to be episodic fan fave nonsensical episodes strung together by the theme of Chuck the writer's latest horrific endgame draft of fratricide or very special Winchester lesson via motw.

Apparently they will also serve as passive-aggressive attacks on Jensen who must have stood up against the quality of the writing more than he has let on. And seriously... asking for guest writers from the golden years of the show to write the final season is a pointed critique even if he did it in the best interest of the series ending on a high note.

It's so very sad. I thought nothing could upset me more than Sleepy Hollow. This is worse.

[desiresrisked]

16 hours ago, 7kstar said:

Dabb is in charge, the director so to speak but he isn't making things stronger.  He's allowing Singer's wife to do what she wants.  Perhaps they all really believe they are doing a fine job, group think, and anyone that disagrees is too scared to say anything - it is a poisoning environment.

While some of the criticism may go overboard, I think part of the problem is the writers have become too involved in social media esp twitter. The guy who wrote this coming week’s episode, Berens, and I think Meg Fitz especially have been complaining about fan criticism all the while basking in any praise that comes their way. Fans know it too hence part of the reason you’ll see shippers esp flock to those accounts to gush over their work in what is a blatant attempt to influence the writers- surely they’ll award them for their praise by giving them the story they want to see (commonly Sam paired off and Dean & Castiel playing my two dads into the sunset) and honestly it wouldn’t surprise me either. The writers are so busy patting themselves and each other on the back and painting anyone who disagrees as someone too negative and judgmental that they truly don’t appear to see any issues with the story.

[Castiels Cat]

2 minutes ago, desiresrisked said:

While some of the criticism may go overboard, I think part of the problem is the writers have become too involved in social media esp twitter. The guy who wrote this coming week’s episode, Berens, and I think Meg Fitz especially have been complaining about fan criticism all the while basking in any praise that comes their way. Fans know it too hence part of the reason you’ll see shippers esp flock to those accounts to gush over their work in what is a blatant attempt to influence the writers- surely they’ll award them for their praise by giving them the story they want to see (commonly Sam paired off and Dean & Castiel playing my two dads into the sunset) and honestly it wouldn’t surprise me either. The writers are so busy patting themselves and each other on the back and painting anyone who disagrees as someone too negative and judgmental that they truly don’t appear to see any issues with the story.

Well their fans appear to be the minority because numbers are down.

Their "winning" strategy to dump Dean in favor of Just Jack was only viable if they thought they could boost numbers to sell a Jack spin-off.

Supernatural with the original Winchesters still appears to be what is marketable. I hope Jensen is serious about working with the right people to revive it without the losers to say least make sure it ends well.

Edited December 1, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

upernatural with the original Winchesters still appears to be what is marketable. I hope Jensen is serious about working with the right people to revive it without the losers to say least make sure it ends wel

Sorry, what are you referring to here? Reviving SPN as in continuing after s15 or what? 

[Castiels Cat]

22 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Sorry, what are you referring to here? Reviving SPN as in continuing after s15 or what? 

I read somewhere here that Jensen has started to mention that there may be a future for the show somewhere, sometime... presumably he is talking about a movie like Serenity or limited series like Deadwood. But he would not say it just to say it. He is not the type to talk to fill empty space especially to fans. It must be something he is thinking about, presumably so Supernatural ends well since he has said he was worried about the ending and since everything he has said indicates he was concerned about the writing this season. 

These writers are not essential. Singer is not essential. Kripke is, WB is and J2 most definitely are because when they decided they were done the show was over. That is all that is needed for a reboot. Hire great writers. Rehire some of the old ones that get the characters. They could do what they want. Reuse the best directors. Return of classic rock and canon. Have a story arc and character arcs. At this point I would be happy to have them have Dean wake up from his gorgon induced coma and pretend as if the end of season 14 and season 15 never happened. Just erase all of this horrible writing as his coma dreams. Let him say it was as if Chuck was the worst writer ever and we were trapped in his badly written television drama.

Anyhow... apparently it is something Jensen has said... I  read it on one of the threads here.... nothing is happening... just his verbal musings at a con I suspect.

[Shannonsspirit]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/ew.com/tv/2019/10/03/supernatural-season-15-preview-andrew-dabb/amp/

My interpretation from this article is that Dabb's take on the Wichesters is, they have been conditioned by their father and the manipulated by Chuck. As Sam and Dean are no more than Pavlovian Dogs, there was never a genuine, noble or thoughtful desire to help save people. Sam and Dean will have their freedom, when Jack, fulfilling his cosmic calling, releases them and saves the world.

[gonzosgirrl]

On 12/2/2019 at 7:21 PM, Shannonsspirit said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/ew.com/tv/2019/10/03/supernatural-season-15-preview-andrew-dabb/amp/

My interpretation from this article is that Dabb's take on the Wichesters is, they have been conditioned by their father and the manipulated by Chuck. As Sam and Dean are no more than Pavlovian Dogs, there was never a genuine, noble or thoughtful desire to help save people. Sam and Dean will have their freedom, when Jack, fulfilling his cosmic calling, releases them and saves the world.

If TPTB have any desire to keep making money off the franchise in syndication, they won't let them end it that way. Who wants to watch a show knowing it is all lies, from episode 1 on? There have been some bad series finales over the years, but that would be St. Elsewhere levels of bad.

Edited December 7, 2019 by gonzosgirrl
Typo

[Shannonsspirit]

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

If TPTB have any desire to keep making money off the franchise in syndication, they won't let them end it tgat way. Who wants to watch a show knowing it is all lies, from episode 1 on? There have been some bad series finales over the years, but that would be St. Elsewhere levels of bad.

It is a very cynical approach to winding up the series.  This final season is an utter failure, though. It stands so far apart from and below the rest, it's almost as if it doesn't exist at all.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Shannonsspirit

[ILoveReading]

Remember when Sam, Dean and Cas used to be able fight and win.

[gonzosgirrl]

I hate KSiteTV's website. Half the time it won't load the pics and then reloads the whole page every time you click.

[ILoveReading]

https://ew.com/tv/2019/12/04/supernatural-clip-season-15-episode-7-dean-sam-eileen/

Why does Sam say "Alone" like Dean needs a chaperone.  Why does Sam always sound so condescending? 

My prediction for this episode,

Dean finds the case and goes out becuase he knows Sam is busy with Eileen.  He gets caught by whatever it is he is hunting.   In his head he is hallucinating Leo.    Cas shows up at some point with his idea at how to find God.  Sam has his vision.  Since Chuck wants one brother to kill the other he vision.  Cas and Sam go recuse Dean.

Despite Dean being controlled with a hallucination he'll find the mojo to fight. 

[desiresrisked]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

https://ew.com/tv/2019/12/04/supernatural-clip-season-15-episode-7-dean-sam-eileen/

Why does Sam say "Alone" like Dean needs a chaperone.  Why does Sam always sound so condescending? 

I know the writers aren’t necessarily the best at continuity but if we looked at it from a continuity perspective Dean wasn’t in a great headspace last episode and barely wanted to leave the bunker which would cause most people to be concerned if a loved one feeling like that would go out alone esp considering they know what can happen when you’re mentally/emotionally distracted. I saw it as more concerned than condescending. We also left off last episode with Sam telling Dean that Dean had saved him and that he needed his brother because he couldn’t do all this without him, it’d make sense that Sam feels the same way about wanting to be there for his brother as he feels he needs Dean there for him.

[catrox14]

My worry with that clip is that it's going to be Dean is guilt tripped for leaving Sam because something happens to Sam whilst he's away. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Dean deciding he needs to get away for a hot minute to be by himself.

I really hope that it's not a fake world that Dean is experiencing. I remember when Dean sang Wanted Dead or Alive before he was ripped apart by hellhounds and he sounded good. So him getting up and singing with an old buddy is okay by me.

And I don't understand why Sam is acting as if he had no attachment to Eileen. 

I am not here for another round of Dean does everything wrong narrative from the writers.

[gonzosgirrl]

31 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

My worry with that clip is that it's going to be Dean is guilt tripped for leaving Sam because something happens to Sam whilst he's away. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Dean deciding he needs to get away for a hot minute to be by himself.

I really hope that it's not a fake world that Dean is experiencing. I remember when Dean sang Wanted Dead or Alive before he was ripped apart by hellhounds and he sounded good. So him getting up and singing with an old buddy is okay by me.

And I don't understand why Sam is acting as if he had no attachment to Eileen. 

I am not here for another round of Dean does everything wrong narrative from the writers.

Seriously,  these are 40 year old men. If one can't leave the other alone for a day or two....

But once again there is a double standard in play.

I, too, hope this isn't a dream world, but this is Dabbernatural we're talking about so I have no expectations. At this point I'm just happy a wider audience will get to hear Jensen sing well.

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Seriously,  these are 40 year old men. If one can't leave the other alone for a day or two....

But once again there is a double standard in play.

I, too, hope this isn't a dream world, but this is Dabbernatural we're talking about so I have no expectations. At this point I'm just happy a wider audience will get to hear Jensen sing well.

Ugh. Sam used to have no problem running off whenever he wanted to no Matter what was going on.  It's a canonical pattern established when he was a kid which we saw happen repeatedly most notably when he ran off to Stanford, so thorough a run off that he wasn't answering Dean's calls, and when he ran off and hit a dog and again went incognito leaving both Dean and Kevin high and dry.

Despite Sam's anger at Dean's personal day... Dean really should be allowed to deal with things in his own space too.

And Dean is always going to have outsized guilt... sadly it's part of his character.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Seriously,  these are 40 year old men. If one can't leave the other alone for a day or two....

But once again there is a double standard in play.

I, too, hope this isn't a dream world, but this is Dabbernatural we're talking about so I have no expectations. At this point I'm just happy a wider audience will get to hear Jensen sing well.

Chuck is especially punishing Dean because he's pervy for him which means the writers are punishing Jensen. 

It's the last season and they are giving us this.

[ahrtee]

6 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Chuck is especially punishing Dean because he's pervy for him which means the writers are punishing Jensen. 

It's the last season and they are giving us this.

Hmmm....to carry this to its (not necessarily logical) conclusion, if Chuck = Dabb, then Dabb is pervy for Jensen and punishing him for not reciprocating.

No, I don't mean to start any nasty rumors.  Though it could explain some things. 😑

[Castiels Cat]

On 12/2/2019 at 8:52 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

If TPTB have any desire to keep making money off the franchise in syndication, they won't let them end it tgat way. Who wants to watch a show knowing it is all lies, from episode 1 on? There have been some bad series finales over the years, but that would be St. Elsewhere levels of bad.

All Chuck can do is set up a chess board to push them knowing how they are wired. 99.99999999% it goes as planned. Now Sam sees the script sometimes and Dean has the ability to go off script. Both powerful tools 

I mean we saw last season how Chuck worked. He set several things in motion around Dean to get Dean and Jack to react to bring them to the final scene in Moriah only Dean's love for Jack messed up Chuck's story. It was the same in s 11 and s 5. Dean's love, his uber humanity enables his to go off script and the story doesn't end the way Chuck plans. So I hope Dean will be pivotal in the way this s ends.

We know too from Naomi that Cas needed reprogramming because he was the broken cog in the machine the messed things up. He sounds like the angelic version of Dean. 

[BoxManLocke]

Imagine thinking Adam, a ten year old character who was in a couple of episodes (in a single one as himself) is some kind of big return that's midseason finale worthy.

I didn't even care back in season 6 and actually thought Sera Gamble was smart not to go there even though some misguided fans were clamoring for his return. Kripke never wrote him as a potentially returning character, there was just too much baggage attached. But thankfully we have Chuck now, who can just bring him back the exact same way he was before he died ! Yay.

I really wish the writers had used the final season to go crazy and treat us with plenty of cool concept episodes they'd be too afraid to make before. Jensen actually mentioned this a few weeks ago in an interview, he had pitched an ep they'd always wanted to make to the writers but had little hope they'd greenlight it. What a surprise.

And those don't necessarily mean big budget. Hell, Robbie Thompson's pitch about Sam and Dean talking for an hour while they do their laundry was extremely appealing to me. But... you need talented writers to pull that off.

So instead, what do we get ? Supernatural : The Cliffnotes. Well I'd rather pop back the old DVD set instead.

Edited December 6, 2019 by BoxManLocke

[auntvi]

On 12/5/2019 at 9:56 PM, BoxManLocke said:

I really wish the writers had used the final season to go crazy and treat us with plenty of cool concept episodes they'd be too afraid to make before.

Most of the writers are just not very good writers and don't think creatively, plus they're lazy. It's sad to watch.

[Bobcatkitten]

An hour of Sam and Dean talking would honestly bore me. And I so love the brothers. 

I don't consider Adam a big return but it is this weird outstanding issue that has been there a decade. Weird that the Winchester's never cared about helping him at all. The guy did nothing but be in the wrong place at the wrong time and have the wrong bloodline. 

[gonzosgirrl]

11 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

The guy did nothing but be in the wrong place at the wrong time and have the wrong bloodline. 

Well maybe a little something wrong... he chose himself and his mom when Zachariah made the offer. I'm not saying he shouldn't have, but it's the same choice Dean made - saving the family he knew (Sam). But why they never even mentioned the possibility of Chuck saving him post-S11, that's another story. Fortunately for Dabb, it gives him yet another yardstick to beat on the Winchesters (probably Dean) with. I can practically hear him giggling with glee over all the ways he can make them douchebags in their own story.

[ILoveReading]

15 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

An hour of Sam and Dean talking would honestly bore me. And I so love the brothers. 

I don't consider Adam a big return but it is this weird outstanding issue that has been there a decade. Weird that the Winchester's never cared about helping him at all. The guy did nothing but be in the wrong place at the wrong time and have the wrong bloodline. 

At one point I wouldn't have minded an hour of the brothers talking but with the way JP plays Sam lately with Sam constantly sounding like he's talking at Dean and lecturing him.  Hard pass.

As for Adam, he was told that if he said yes to Michael he'd be rewarded and get to be with his mom in heaven, at the end of 5,18 it was made clear they lied and he was just bait.  So I never understood why he trusted them enough to say yes.  He got burned once, he can't be surprised he got burned again.

[Castiels Cat]

29 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

At one point I wouldn't have minded an hour of the brothers talking but with the way JP plays Sam lately with Sam constantly sounding like he's talking at Dean and lecturing him.  Hard pass.

As for Adam, he was told that if he said yes to Michael he'd be rewarded and get to be with his mom in heaven, at the end of 5,18 it was made clear they lied and he was just bait.  So I never understood why he trusted them enough to say yes.  He got burned once, he can't be surprised he got burned again.

Wasn't he being brutally tortured in PoNR and perhaps he had no choice but to say Yes. Maybe his previous yes still was in play.

For me the most interesting question is WHY IS IT ADAM AND NOT MICHAEL!ADAM?

Last week the mention Death's library and this week they mention Adam which mentions Michael is loosen Nillie's prophecy never told us which Michael. And yes that would mean Dabbler and Hacks following through on a storyline as well as something big for Dean. However using Dean to destroy things and then sit back and wait for the OPT is probably what gives Chuck the perfect boner judging by past seasons of Supernatural. AND maybe in his current state there are some fates so strongly set in motion that Chuck cannot change????

I am counting now... one Michael mention, Lilith is a secondary Apocalypse mention, Adam is Michael stand-in, one Billie mention, one Library mention and one Billie watching them mention because of what they did to start Dean's fate in motion....  that's a lot.

[Castiels Cat]

On 12/2/2019 at 7:21 PM, Shannonsspirit said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/ew.com/tv/2019/10/03/supernatural-season-15-preview-andrew-dabb/amp/

My interpretation from this article is that Dabb's take on the Wichesters is, they have been conditioned by their father and the manipulated by Chuck. As Sam and Dean are no more than Pavlovian Dogs, there was never a genuine, noble or thoughtful desire to help save people. Sam and Dean will have their freedom, when Jack, fulfilling his cosmic calling, releases them and saves the world.

I think Dean's m.o. has always been helping other people so that what happened to his family didn't happen to anyone else. This is why he coined the family business motto. We saw him reiterate this in the most recent episode and regain his mojo and act like the super hunter and hero he is.

Sam per the pilot originally hunted for revenge and because of their obsession with Sam tropes the writers struggled for him to find purpose in hunting until Carver. I am really glad the writing is continuing to give him that purpose even though they have reverted to the familiar something is wrong with Sam trope for the final season.

So... Dabb said his word salad and for some reason which defies logic they are talking for the Jack crowd per the SM push.  Whatever. Mostly Dabb is talking without spoiling.

Clearly what Dabb said is not happening. Both Sam and Dean reflect both of their parents and each other and their life experiences.

This entire season is based on the fact that Dean didn't do what Chuck wanted him to do and now he wants to punish Dean mostly with whom he gas some pervy thing and and Sam. I think the pervy thing is based on the fact that Dean has a history of going off script which Chuck finds interesting most of the time except for Moriah 

Dabb has to know that Dean goes off script because he was there in s 5 and he wrote Moriah. Really I think Dabb is talking about the fact the guys think they are puppets on a string which was beautifully expressed in the final shot of 15:1 showing Dean and Sam sitting like two abandoned marionettes.

They aren't. We saw in s 14 how Chuck operates. He sets it all up. Everything was set up for Dean to kill Jack and for Dean to be destroyed by it. OPT. Apparently free will is Dean's super power.

And Sam's stupid angry move has given them insight into God's endgame plans and Gods head.  And maybe he dies  and/or does get absorbed by Amara along with Chuck to save the world. Now I am starting to see that happening because Cas stretched his soul and ruined everything. Oh Nos.

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, Bobcatkitten said:

An hour of Sam and Dean talking would honestly bore me. And I so love the brothers. 

I don't consider Adam a big return but it is this weird outstanding issue that has been there a decade. Weird that the Winchester's never cared about helping him at all. The guy did nothing but be in the wrong place at the wrong time and have the wrong bloodline. 

He wasn't particularly friendly or brotherly to them. They were at odds right. He was team Zachariah because they were giving him what he wanted.

[catrox14]

Yeah, it's a whole pile of BS that Adam somehow was screwed over by the Winchesters. Nah, he opted in with Zachariah and even then Dean  tried to save him. And tried again in season 6. At this point it really better only be OG Michael coming in to play. He should really want Dean again as his vessel because Adam was a 2nd choice.

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Yeah, it's a whole pile of BS that Adam somehow was screwed over by the Winchesters. Nah, he opted in with Zachariah and even then Dean  tried to save him. And tried again in season 6. At this point it really better only be OG Michael coming in to play. He should really want Dean again as his vessel because Adam was a 2nd choice.

And this plays into Dean's fate...

I am interested too to see whether there is still an open door. The other Michael left an open door. Can this Michael just walk in.

Or... Will he say... I hate Chuck too. Let's help each other.

Will Dean want to check the books first which is dangerous because they can change with a decision.

Edited December 8, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[Bobcatkitten]

I don't think the Winchester's screwed Adam. But I do think they left him in hell without a minute of concern. 

[BoxManLocke]

2 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I don't think the Winchester's screwed Adam. But I do think they left him in hell without a minute of concern. 

I feel like the show did a good enough job explaining why going back for him was never an option, at least for the first few years. Risking Lucifer's release was obviously not worth the risk for a single soul.

After that, and I may misremember this, but didn't Death or somebody else basically said that Adam's soul had been completely destroyed in the cage or something like that ?
Either way I couldn't care less about him and guilt-tripping Sam and Dean just so the writers can check another box on their SPN 101 list.