These Spoilers Suck: Bitter Speculation About SPN Spoilers

[Castiels Cat]

11 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I re-checked the old spoilers. And Singer did say at Paleyfest it would be a character who viewers have seen on the show "many years ago". Also Dabb recently said it would be "unexpected but also a long time coming".

Jensen`s spoilers about big shoes to fill was IMO being nice to Matt Cohen. There is still spec that he is gonna be in the Finale. A short blurb necessary to Dean can interact with cage!Michael and say yes. 

It`s obvious the final showdown happens in the church where Lucifer kicks Sam around. Jack is also there - and he should be perfectly able to fight off Lucifer. Now apparently not since Sam and him are later huddled in the corner. 

Then Dean arrives, at this point possessed. You can see Lucifer looking at him like "what the hell?" However, where was Dean until that point? 

My guess? They all went to the church, Dean went somewhere to talk to Michael, Lucifer arrives and kicks the shit out of everyone and then Dean arrives "anew". There is some spec that the church is "the entrance to the cage". Yes, it`s ridiculous and against lore but many things have been.      

Cage!Michael would be totally unexpected at this point since noone said up that storyline even in passing. He wasn`t mentioned, he wasn`t discussed as any option, we haven`t seen nor heard about him.  

So if it is him, they are totally pulling him out of their hats. Not the first, nor the last time. Remember how "oh, removing the MOC will release this primordial evil" thing was introduced halfway into the Season 10 Finale and not at any point over the entire Season 10 where removing the Mark was the big storyline. 

What I do not believe is that Michael will kill Lucifer. The writers/producers are all riding Lucifer`s jock. At BEST, he gets thrown back into the cage, for possible future use. 

AU!Michael might just be a red herring villain. He obviously attacks them at the Gas n`Sip and later in the bunker. You can see Sam crumbled on the floor while he chokes Dean. Eyes bleeding. This might be due to a spell or Lucifer pulled some shit.  

I am going to write something up for WFB to explain all of the layered  writing that has  built up to Dean!Michael for two seasons and I have been laying it out here for two months.  I saw this cvoming since 12:1 And the writers gave plenty of hints. I am not going to belabor the point here.

Sigh. They are not pulling this out of there asses.  It has been the entire end game of the last two seasons. 

But whatever.

[SueB]

3 hours ago, Res said:

I wonder if the church is the one where Azazel talked to Lucifer after killing the nuns. That would make sense, if they gave a crap about canon.

That church (from S5) was St Mary's Convent in Ellicott City, MD.  I know that because I pass the turnoff to Ellicott City at least once a week and always think of the episode.  In any case, it was more of a small chapel than a big church with Stained Glass windows.  

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I am going to write something up for WFB to explain all of the layered  writing that has  built up to Dean!Michael for two seasons and I have been laying it out here for two months.  I saw this cvoming since 12:1 And the writers gave plenty of hints. I am not going to belabor the point here.

I`ve read your points as what you think are clues. I`m just in no way convinced that those were intentional building blocks. And nothing is gonna convince me anyway, even if the writers came out and said it was the case, I`d think they were bullshitting after the fact. So IMO yes, they did pull it out of their collective asses. And hey, I`m not complaining, I never even thought they were gonna do that much. Whatever gives me Michael!Dean (the real Michael), fine.  

[Reganne]

  I am really disappointed that they had Sam make an incredibly stupid decision to keep Lucifer from entering their world and leave him (the main ingredient for the spell) with Michael so now Michael has an easy means to get into their world.  Now it's Sam's fault that Michael has access to their world.  I knew it would be that way in some form or another so I shouldn't be surprised.  Now Dean is going to be forced to take on this new character because of Sam and his stupid decisions.  I just don't get why the writers insist on having Sam make so many dumb mistakes if they want to portray him as a smart character.

[Aeryn13]

Michael doesn`t really need Lucifer for his grace, he could use his own if he really needs to. And didn`t Kevin already give him the ingredients for a spell? 

I get that this is supposed to come back to bite them in the ass but even I can`t really fault Sam for what he did here. He can`t kill Lucifer, can`t contain him so leaving him in the AU where he had good reason to believe he would be swiftly slaughtered by Michael wasn`t the worst call. 

Like I said, it almost exactly mirrored something done on Vampire Diaries and while that also came back to spectularly bite the revenge-seeker(s) in the ass, it wasn`t played as "wow, what screw-ups", it was played as a moment of empowerment. I believe it was supposed to be here as well.

And if my spec is correct that Lucifer (maybe with Jack) will take out AU!Michael, then he pretty much only brought himself back as a bad guy.    

[Reganne]

26 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Michael doesn`t really need Lucifer for his grace, he could use his own if he really needs to. And didn`t Kevin already give him the ingredients for a spell? 

I get that this is supposed to come back to bite them in the ass but even I can`t really fault Sam for what he did here. He can`t kill Lucifer, can`t contain him so leaving him in the AU where he had good reason to believe he would be swiftly slaughtered by Michael wasn`t the worst call. 

Like I said, it almost exactly mirrored something done on Vampire Diaries and while that also came back to spectularly bite the revenge-seeker(s) in the ass, it wasn`t played as "wow, what screw-ups", it was played as a moment of empowerment. I believe it was supposed to be here as well.

And if my spec is correct that Lucifer (maybe with Jack) will take out AU!Michael, then he pretty much only brought himself back as a bad guy.    

I don't know if the spells are the same or not, but AU Michael would also need something from the other world (Lucifer).  Not to mention, by having Michael use Lucifers grace to open the rift, AU Michael will be at full power and not a weakened state.  The whole reason Michael hasn't entered their world yet is because he didn't want to use his own grace or so I thought.  I mean he could have opened that rift a long time ago if he truly had the list of ingredients and means to do so but he didn't.  Now all of a sudden, it's a go because Sam left Lucifer behind.

[ahrtee]

26 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I get that this is supposed to come back to bite them in the ass but even I can`t really fault Sam for what he did here. He can`t kill Lucifer, can`t contain him so leaving him in the AU where he had good reason to believe he would be swiftly slaughtered by Michael wasn`t the worst call. 

I wonder that no one has considered what Jack would think about Sam stranding his father deliberately.  I mean, Jack was so insistent on getting to know Luci, and had just barely started when...Sam deliberately chose to do something Jack would never want or agree to?  Wouldn't that make Jack a tad angry with Sam (and, by extension, the others who'd tacitly agreed?)  Unless I missed something (extremely likely, since I wasn't paying much attention to the Lucifer scenes) and Jack had already decided his dad was bad news?  Or is Jack such a nonentity that he'd just go along quietly with whatever the "adults" say?  

I'm guessing there's going to be some fallout from that.  At least, there should be.  

[DeeDee79]

13 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I wonder that no one has considered what Jack would think about Sam stranding his father deliberately.  I mean, Jack was so insistent on getting to know Luci, and had just barely started when...Sam deliberately chose to do something Jack would never want or agree to?  Wouldn't that make Jack a tad angry with Sam (and, by extension, the others who'd tacitly agreed?)  Unless I missed something (extremely likely, since I wasn't paying much attention to the Lucifer scenes) and Jack had already decided his dad was bad news?  Or is Jack such a nonentity that he'd just go along quietly with whatever the "adults" say?  

I'm guessing there's going to be some fallout from that.  At least, there should be.  

I agree. Especially considering Jack’s demeanor in the bunker while everyone else was celebrating. He seemed detached from everything that was going on instead of happy to be back.

[Pondlass1]

16 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I'm guessing there's going to be some fallout from that.  At least, there should be.

I hope so.  He was sitting alone and mopey and sorting out his feelings.  If he has a bone to pick with anyone it would be Sam and that could get interesting considering his (uncontrollable) powers.  He'd just started to get to know Dad. Now he's gone (thanks Sam!). But the Cinnamon Jack version has endeared itself to fans, so they may not want to turn him malevolent now.  And these writers never make an attempt at writing conversations that should be had between characters. 

[Aeryn13]

I`m thinking the fall-out from this will be Jack briefly "joining" Lucifer but the promo pics and the promo already give away the ultimate outcome. Sam and Jack, huddled in a corner, away from Lucifer while Dean and Lucifer have their fight. 

From the one promo pic it looks like Lucifer did something to Jack, maybe drained some of his power for himself. Jack would be super-vulnerable to an underhanded tactic from Lucy at this point.

[BoxManLocke]

37 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I hope so.  He was sitting alone and mopey and sorting out his feelings.  If he has a bone to pick with anyone it would be Sam and that could get interesting considering his (uncontrollable) powers.  He'd just started to get to know Dad. Now he's gone (thanks Sam!). But the Cinnamon Jack version has endeared itself to fans, so they may not want to turn him malevolent now.  And these writers never make an attempt at writing conversations that should be had between characters. 

The writing that led to Jack wanting to know Lucifer better was awful.

 

The only conversation Jack and Sam should have is Sam explaining why he had every right to shove Luci's face back to Michael, because nobody was able to explain what a POS he was in the last episode.

Edited May 12, 2018 by BoxManLocke

[DeeDee79]

6 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

The writing that led to Jack wanting to know Lucifer better was awful.

 

The only conversation Jack and Sam should have is Sam explaining why he had every right to shove Luci's face back to Michael, because nobody was able to explain what a POS he was in the last episode.

Personally I think it would have been more effective if Jack had overheard the conversation that Gabriel had with Lucifer since he bluntly told him all of the ways that he’s always been awful since their creation. Since it was an opinion from another Archangel nearly as old as Lucifer it may have carried more weight than everyone else’s opinions.

[catrox14]

What irks me with this is that it's once more contrived writing that makes zero sense for the characters.  It's all PLOT PLOT PLOT with Dabb choosing to not have Sam, Dean or Cas tell Jack exactly what a piece of shit Lucifer is and all the awful things he's done to humanity and specifically to Sam. Jack is more than capable of hearing it and processing it. IMO  The only reason to keep that from Jack is to set up a divide between poor Nougat Boy and TFW. To quote Dean Winchester "This is sooo stupid"

Speaking of stupid, I don't think Sam did a stupid thing. Whilst I think Sam should have killed Lucifer, this was the next best option given the givens.  AU Michael already killed AU Lucifer in that world.  He wanted to use Lucifer's grace and then kill him. Sam had every reason to think they would try to kill each other again. And really Sam won't be alone on this. IMO Jack will feel equally betrayed by Dean because he  ordered Lucifer's death and Jack freaked out at that point and bugged out.

And where is Cas in all this?  Gabriel not even saying that Cas influenced Jack is an outright awful erasure of Cas' role in Jack's life. It's infuriating TBH how Buck Lemming disregarded Cas other than him being muscle in that episode.  So where is Cas' role with Jack now? He had so much love and caring for Jack but somehow it's just being ignored to set up a fracture with Sam and Dean.

It's contrivance because Jack already said that Lucifer was nothing to him. He could have used Kaia to find Lucifer if he had been interested.  He wasn't. He knew he was bad news. 

IMO, the only way this will work is if it's revealed that merely being in Lucifer's presence allowed his evil powers to manipulate Nougat Boy and not just because Jack is all 'My "REAL" Dad is here'.  Sidebar: He's as much President Jeff's son as he is Lucifer's.  I mean what would Jack think if he learned that Lucifer possessed President Jeff in order to have more power and then have no informed consent sex on Kelly's part, and have a kid JUST to prove he's a better Dad than Chuck. Cause that is the reason Lucifer did it.  Not because he was suddenly overwhelmed with wanting a child to love the child. He did it as a fuck you to Chuck. The show might want to pretend that isn't the case, but it is.  It's what happened.  The show can't undo that now. 

You know who would tell the truth to everyone on this?  Crowley. There is no one in the show right now who has the objective that Crowley had on things. 

As to grace, Jack is half archangel and he's still the most powerful entity in the universe..Jack is on this side and can be the one that opens the rift to let Team AU Bobby and Co go back and fight that war.  Sidebar: I'll be pissed if they keep AU Bobby and AU Charlie in the SPN world. They died here.  Their deaths had grave importance to Dean and lead him to some pretty important places in the narrative.  If they don't send them back that makes all of Dean's emotional turmoil in s7 and s10 rather pointless IMO. 

At this point, I don't see Sam or Dean killing Lucifer.  It really should be Jack. I suspect Dean and Lucifer fight, but Dean starts losing badly and Jack ends up killing Lucifer. If that doesn't happen, and Jack makes it into s14 then I think they have set up him to have an Anakin Skywalker moment like in Revenge of the Sith given the planted Anakin references.  I can see him fighting TFW and being on the verge of going AnaDarth but somehow the power of love from TFW stops him.  That said, if they are trying to redeem Lucifer, then I can see Lucifer being the one that tries to stop him from killing TFW.  But that's all spec for s14 presuming Jack survives this season.  

Edited May 12, 2018 by catrox14

[BoxManLocke]

32 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Personally I think it would have been more effective if Jack had overheard the conversation that Gabriel had with Lucifer since he bluntly told him all of the ways that he’s always been awful since their creation. Since it was an opinion from another Archangel nearly as old as Lucifer it may have carried more weight than everyone else’s opinions.

Yeah that was the only good bit of writing in the episode for me, but it still didn't go deep enough.

 

It's funny because they pushed the Lucifer redemption story so much, but you know what would have made it (almost) work ? Having him learn from his mistakes. That could have started in this episode, he could have acknowledged that he was a selfish, whiny asshole.

But he still acts like the same entitled buffoon and we're supposed to feel sorry for him and even blame Sam when he gets his just desserts ? Give me a break.

Edited May 12, 2018 by BoxManLocke

[Res]

12 hours ago, Reganne said:

I don't know if the spells are the same or not, but AU Michael would also need something from the other world (Lucifer).  Not to mention, by having Michael use Lucifers grace to open the rift, AU Michael will be at full power and not a weakened state. 

Actually, AU Michael has Gabe's body right in front of him to use as something from the other world. No problem there. The 2nd point might be legit but I still don't think that something to be blamed on Sam and I'm one of those fans that have absolutely no use or faith in him.

[BabySpinach]

7 minutes ago, Res said:

Actually, AU Michael has Gabe's body right in front of him to use as something from the other world. No problem there. The 2nd point might be legit but I still don't think that something to be blamed on Sam and I'm one of those fans that have absolutely no use or faith in him.

I had no problem with him pushing Lucifer away from the portal, either. Mostly because I don't buy Lucifer's redemption for a second, and after all of the terrible shit he's done PERSONALLY to the Winchesters and to the world, this is nowhere close to what he deserves. Ketch's redemption was done better, because he 1. showed remorse and 2. tried to make amends for his past. It's really not hard, yet we're supposed to sympathize with Satan because he cried a tear and looked sad.

[Castiels Cat]

4 hours ago, Res said:

Actually, AU Michael has Gabe's body right in front of him to use as something from the other world. No problem there. The 2nd point might be legit but I still don't think that something to be blamed on Sam and I'm one of those fans that have absolutely no use or faith in him.

Lucifer stated that he was weakened by interdimensional travel. It may be a function of travel or it may be a function of being in an AU. Before he lost any grace he was much weaker than AU Michael.  There was not much of a fight to Lucifer's shock.  AU Michael is way too cocky and won't be expecting this little snafu.  Sure Lucifer lies but we saw it for ourselves.

[Castiels Cat]

15 hours ago, BoxManLocke said:

Yeah that was the only good bit of writing in the episode for me, but it still didn't go deep enough.

 

It's funny because they pushed the Lucifer redemption story so much, but you know what would have made it (almost) work ? Having him learn from his mistakes. That could have started in this episode, he could have acknowledged that he was a selfish, whiny asshole.

But he still acts like the same entitled buffoon and we're supposed to feel sorry for him and even blame Sam when he gets his just desserts ? Give me a break.

Actually they did not push the Lucifer redemption story at all.  They showed him initially interested in Jack because of his power.  Them he lost grace and did develop feelings and mellow slightly so he was less "killey.".  He still was a narcissistic liar.  He was still manipulate.  He was telling Jack that they were the ultimate rulers. He is the same guy with rounder edges.  There is no redemption. He wants his son to use his power.  

He has changed enough to feel a little bad about selling out our universe. So what.

He fought AU Michael to show off for Jack and maybe to protect him.  There may be a sincere attempt at being a dad. 

But Lucifer wants to use him because Jack is powerful.He is not redeemed. And it will not happen. Not really.  

[BoxManLocke]

Oh I agree he's still pretty much the same guy he was 8 years ago and whatever they tried to convey didn't work. So... why the hell is he still around ?

 

There's plenty to complain about Dabb's run as showrunner, but wasting more than a dozen episodes worth of screentime on a character that's only there so BuckLeming can have their fun is the worst thing of all. They built an entire two-year plan for Lucifer. And he is still exactly the same. So are the other characters. Everything that happened to him was only used to point out how, in the end, he was still the same person no matter what.

 

Two years of this shit. What a colossal waste of time.

Edited May 13, 2018 by BoxManLocke

[Castiels Cat]

On 5/13/2018 at 10:25 AM, BoxManLocke said:

Oh I agree he's still pretty much the same guy he was 8 years ago and whatever they tried to convey didn't work. So... why the hell is he still around ?

 

There's plenty to complain about Dabb's run as showrunner, but wasting more than a dozen episodes worth of screentime on a character that's only there so BuckLeming can have their fun is the worst thing of all. They built an entire two-year plan for Lucifer. And he is still exactly the same. So are the other characters. Everything that happened to him was only used to point out how, in the end, he was still the same person no matter what.

 

Two years of this shit. What a colossal waste of time.

Because of the Apocalypse. They needed him to be around for that.  He is kind of a  big deal in the Apocalypse.

I sorta of enjoyed his chaotic rock star phase.  The Crowley arc was bad.  Crowley was smarter than that and it was LOL plotting.  Just have the spell not work.  He is in but something goes wrong and He is injured and lays low... serves same purpose as having him locked up.

Lucifer getting feels arc should have been truncated.

More AU instead to develop Jack and Mary.  Both were working out important issues,and growth with each other.

[Myrelle]

I am Soooooooooooooooo! Nervous about the finale.

It's Dabb. I don't trust him at all. :-/

[Casseiopeia]

2 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I am Soooooooooooooooo! Nervous about the finale.

It's Dabb. I don't trust him at all. :-/

He hasn't failed  to disappoint us yet.  They have all been disappointing.

 

edit: Fixed it!

Edited May 16, 2018 by Casseiopeia

[gonzosgirrl]

34 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I am Soooooooooooooooo! Nervous about the finale.

It's Dabb. I don't trust him at all. :-/

At. All.

[ILoveReading]

35 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I am Soooooooooooooooo! Nervous about the finale.

It's Dabb. I don't trust him at all. :-/

The only area Dabb doesn't disappoint in is his ability to disappoint.  

[catrox14]

36 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

He hasn't disappointed us yet.

If by "hasn't disappointed us yet"   you mean hasn't failed to disappoint,  then I agree. ;)

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

If by "hasn't disappointed us yet"   you mean hasn't failed to disappoint,  then I agree. ;)

Yes what you said.

[ILoveReading]

Putting this post here because I'm pretty sure bitterness is going to creep in.

If I apply the SPN occam's razor I don't think the outfit Jensen is wearing has any more significance than Jensen thought it looked cool.  I'd be (pleasantly) surprised if it meant any more than that.

At JIB, someone asked one of the guests (I can't remember exactly which guest it was, but I want to say Rich) if they could write an episode but didn't have to follow any rules what would it be about.  I had a good laugh over that because Dabb and company do it every week.   Rules and past don't matter.  So if Dean is possessed by Cage Michael, it doesn't mean that writers remember or even care that Michael is supposed to be off his rocker or useless.  I tend to suspect they'll do what they always do if it doesn't fit, and just ignore it. 

I'm still leaning toward AU Michael because the writers seem allergic to remembering Dean has a past and mentioning it on screen (other than to mock it) and the Dean/Michael connection tops the list of taboo subjects.  See Dabb's latest article where he makes a specific mention about how Michael isn't the least bit interested in Dean.   So once again I'll be (pleasantly) surprised if Dean's connection to Michael comes up in the previouslies.  

Because the finale is so jam packed I just do see how there will be time to introduce Cage Michael.  I would like it but I don't see the writers putting that kind of effort in.

I think Lucifer and Michael will come through the rift, and Jack will greatly injure and weaken Michael,  Lucifer will start to get the upper hand, Dean will go to AU Michael and make a deal, he will let him possess him if he takes out Lucifer.  Then Michael likes his new body, find the outfits in the bunker and takes off with Dean's meat suit. 

Since Dabb loves MP so much I doubt Lucifer will be killed.  Someone mentioned to JP that they would like to see Sam kill Lucifer, and from JP's answer it definitely sounded like if he dies its not Sam who kills him.

I have doubts Dabb will let Dean succeed on that front either.  If he does there will be some other plot twist that brings him back. 

*yup bitterness.

Edited May 17, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Myrelle]

7 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Since Dabb loves MP so much I doubt Lucifer will be killed.  Someone mentioned to JP that they would like to see Sam kill Lucifer, and from JP's answer it definitely sounded like if he dies its not Sam who kills him.

IMO, the worst that will happen to Lucifer is that he will be caged again so that he'll be available for the next time they want to let him out. This is how the writers on this show roll.

And I have the same worries and fears as you

12 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I'm still leaning toward AU Michael because the writers seem allergic to remembering Dean has a past and mentioning it on screen (other than to mock it) and the Dean/Michael connection tops the list of taboo subjects

It's like pulling teeth to get them to mention this, much less explore it, so yes, the fear is if Dabb/Singer do it, they'll find a way to butcher it.

On another note, very little promotion for the finale and all that hype for ep. 21. I smell some BTS quid pro quo, so it will be interesting to see Dean's role in this finale.

[ILoveReading]

2 hours ago, Myrelle said:

On another note, very little promotion for the finale and all that hype for ep. 21. I smell some BTS quid pro quo, so it will be interesting to see Dean's role in this finale.

Hopefully he has more of a presence than he did in these last two eps

[ILoveReading]

http://ew.com/tv/2018/05/17/supernatural-season-13-finale-jensen-ackles/?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=entertainmentweekly&utm_medium=social

Its disappointing that once again Dean is just reduced to protecting Sam instead of being given a world saving moment.

[Aeryn13]

Urgh, so his motivation will be pathetic and selfish. Thanks for nothing then.

[gonzosgirrl]

42 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

http://ew.com/tv/2018/05/17/supernatural-season-13-finale-jensen-ackles/?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=entertainmentweekly&utm_medium=social

Its disappointing that once again Dean is just reduced to protecting Sam instead of being given a world saving moment.

I wish I was surprised. I'm only mad at myself for having hope. He does mention fighting the good fight, but given the rest of the statement. Blergh. 

I love that they will fight for each other, I really do. But damnit, Dean deserves a world-saving win of his own.

[catrox14]

27 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

http://ew.com/tv/2018/05/17/supernatural-season-13-finale-jensen-ackles/?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=entertainmentweekly&utm_medium=social

Its disappointing that once again Dean is just reduced to protecting Sam instead of being given a world saving moment.

I"m not at all surprised...Dabb doesn't see Dean as a Big Damn Hero. 

He sees Dean's worth only tied to family.  I dunno, Jensen kind of sees Dean that way too I think.  Or he just spins the company line. I dunno.

I also think it will be spun that Dean is the Hero to Sam and that's all that matters.  But it's not all that matters to me with Dean. 

[Bobcatkitten]

I didn't see anything showing he would be selfish? What am I missing? 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I also think it will be spun that Dean is the Hero to Sam and that's all that matters.  But it's not all that matters to me with Dean. 

Me neither. In fact, to me it is not heroic at all to go "my brother, my brother" and do something that knowingly puts other people at risk - like agreeing to being a vessel to some powerful entity. If that doesn`t happen, okay, then it is just a normal letdown.

I mean, no way Dean will be allowed to even momentarily defeat Lucifer. The writers love Lucifer too much, they love him more than Sam, let alone Dean. 

So what kind of hero moment is Dean realistically going to get here? Save the wolrd? Nope. Save a lot of people at least? Nope. 

And Jack is right there in that stupid church. He could easily  defeat Lucifer - unless he stupidly got himself depowered earlier.

So Misha has said the new Big Bad will take a familiar form. Great, then Jensen`s new character will be the Big Bad. Meaning most likely Dean says yes to something dangerous and evil "for Sammy". That`s character ruination. 

Edited May 17, 2018 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I didn't see anything showing he would be selfish? What am I missing? 

They've spent 3 seasons telling us how sacrificing the world for family is wrong. That was Dabb's words from Sam in s11 premiere. 

There is no way what Dean is going to do won't have a mother of a downside (he's already got that with Mary). 

Sam is going to pa

Just now, Aeryn13 said:

Me neither. In fact, to me it is not heroic at all to go "my brother, my brother" and do something that knowingly puts other people at risk - like agreeing to being a vessel to some powerful entity. If that doesn`t happen, okay, then it is just a normal letdown.

That's the one thing about a possible Michael!Dean vs Lucifer that bugs me. Back in s5, Dean had a good reason to say yes to Michael IMO, others may disagree, and I'm not getting into that debate.

This time around unless there is some kind of evidence that the battle won't wreck the planet, I'm not sure exactly why Dean would say yes. I wonder if the point of them fighting in that church is that it's some kind of special place that might contain the battle inside it? Like super duper warding or something? 

I dunno. It's weird.  

[Casseiopeia]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That was Dabb's words from Sam in s11 premiere. 

That was actually Carver's script.  What Dabb wants is probably whatever Ms Singer has planned.

 

I don't have a problem with Dean deciding to be a vessel/take on a superpower or whatever to save everyone in the church.  As long as the downside isn't the rest of humanity suffers.  If that happens then we have more Dean guilt whenever he is recovered.  I don't need more Dean guilt for another season.

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

That was actually Carver's script.  What Dabb wants is probably whatever Ms Singer has planned.

I happen to be of the opinion that Carver and Dabb worked jointly on both the premiere and the 2nd episode. If you don't, that's fine.

[ILoveReading]

Since this new character isnt likely to last past 3 episodes, I can see the

"Michael doesn't need Dean" easily coming into play.

[Bobcatkitten]

Maybe the decision is about stopping Michael from taking over our world - not just about saving Sam. Saving everyone. I mean they have seen the havoc Michael has wreaked in the AU. 

[BabySpinach]

At this point, I'm just clutching at the "it's been a long time coming" hint, Billie's definite involvement in what happens with Dean, and her assertion that he "has work to do". That sounds more like Dean fulfilling some necessary cosmic purpose that him potentially dooming the world for Sammy. At the very least, Billie is pushing him toward something, so it's got to be important rather than just cataclysmic for everyone.

1 minute ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Maybe the decision is about stopping Michael from taking over our world - not just about saving Sam. Saving everyone. I mean they have seen the havoc Michael has wreaked in the AU. 

PLEASE let it be framed that way.

[ILoveReading]

Is Billie in this episode for sure.  I don't see anything on the spoiler sheet and Matt Cohen is still listed but there was an article that says it wasn't SPN he was filming. 

This is why I couldn't get excited.  I figured it was going to be about Sam in the end.

Edited May 17, 2018 by ILoveReading

[BabySpinach]

38 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Is Billie in this episode for sure.  I don't see anything on the spoiler sheet and Matt Cohen is still listed but there was an article that says it wasn't SPN he was filming. 

This is why I couldn't get excited.  I figured it was going to be about Sam in the end.

Billie did say "see you soon" in 13.19. There's no way we don't see her for the season finale. Whatever "impulsive" fuckery Dean gets up to, he seems to have the backing of Death, so it can't be THAT bad... right?

[Casseiopeia]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I happen to be of the opinion that Carver and Dabb worked jointly on both the premiere and the 2nd episode. If you don't, that's fine.

I don't doubt it.  I didn't know that is what you meant.  Apologies.

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I don't doubt it.  I didn't know that is what you meant.  Apologies.

No apologies needed. I wasn't as clear as I could have been.

[ILoveReading]

59 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

Billie did say "see you soon" in 13.19. There's no way we don't see her for the season finale. Whatever "impulsive" fuckery Dean gets up to, he seems to have the backing of Death, so it can't be THAT bad... right?

I don't put much faith in what happens in one episode being followed up in another.  Since I firmly believe they don't read each other's scripts I'm not sure anyone but Yockey even knows Death said that to Dean. 

Don't get me wrong, as a big fan of the dynamic between Dean and death, I'd like to see her show up, I just don't think she will.

[Casseiopeia]

Is anyone talking about Misha's interview?  He made it sound like whoever Dean becomes is the Big Bad for S14.

[ILoveReading]

From @Aeryn13 in the spoiler thread:

Quote

Right now I`m dismayed that the new character is already touted as the new "Big Bad". I`m iffy on Michael right now but if he was, cage!Michael that is, why would he be the "Big Bad"? To me he would be cold and uncaring to humanity possibly, wanting to return to heaven and rule there but not give a fuck about ruling Earth or something. 

 

Also how is this going to work?  If Dean is the big bad the only way to do it is going to be a Gadreel type scenario because the writers aren't' going to separate Sam and Dean for half or a full season. They barely tolerate an episode.  It's going to make Sam look bad if he can't tell that Dean isn't Dean. 

Does this mean that after 3 episodes, Michael is recharged and doesn't need Dean anymore (since he doesn't care about him anyway) and then they recast Michael and Dean goes back to Sam with his tail between his legs and has to learn another lesson about letting poor Sammy go and that Sam is a big boy who can take care of himself?  No thanks.

Quote

This just has epic clusterfuck potential.

Yup. 

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

From @Aeryn13 in the spoiler thread:

 

Also how is this going to work?  If Dean is the big bad the only way to do it is going to be a Gadreel type scenario because the writers aren't' going to separate Sam and Dean for half or a full season. They barely tolerate an episode.  It's going to make Sam look bad if he can't tell that Dean isn't Dean. 

Does this mean that after 3 episodes, Michael is recharged and doesn't need Dean anymore (since he doesn't care about him anyway) and then they recast Michael and Dean goes back to Sam with his tail between his legs and has to learn another lesson about letting poor Sammy go and that Sam is a big boy who can take care of himself?  No thanks.

Yup. 

Dean had a lot of solo time this season.  Singer said they were being daring next season. I think this season was a trial run.

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Dean had a lot of solo time this season.  Singer said they were being daring next season. I think this season was a trial run.

A few scenes in an ep isn't the same as multiple episodes.  IMO, the show will never go there for long than an episode or two at most.