These Spoilers Suck: Bitter Speculation About SPN Spoilers

[Myrelle]

So...I just read the two articles in the regular spoiler thread about tonight's episode and in the EW article Danneel said that the way Ross-Lemming pitched the  character to her was "Sister Jo is a Badass." Wow. What a surprise there. And with Danneel stating that Sister Jo gets the upper hand in this one, it just feels like it's going to be yet another zero sum scenario to me wherein the brothers will yet again be depicted as incompetent hunters and/or fools so that the guest star of the week can shine. Ugh.

In their quest to make them all "badass", I think that the writers and showrunners of this show have completely forgotten how to write a Real and True human female character-which I was hoping Sister Jo might possibly be. Not looking as forward to tonight's episode now thanks to those interviews. It was bad enough that we're getting more YuckyLucifer, but Danneel's character sounds kind of Awful(and mundane for this show, tbh) from the description. Maybe another Bela, and if so, again, thanks but no thanks, SPNwriters. :-/

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

In their quest to make them all "badass", I think that the writers and showrunners of this show have completely forgotten how to write a Real and True human female character

I was worried about that with Donna but I think Breakdown did a good job to rehumanize Donna. They let her cry, be vulnerable and sad about losing Doug and be smart in her hunting. I didn't care for how she was talking to Dean about "You". That was bad writing for her on that part. She wouldn't dismiss Dean that way. But other than that I did enjoy seeing Donna's layers again. 

[Myrelle]

Yeah, that was the part that made me kind of lose it for Donna and I blame the writing for it completely. Dean didn't need someone to tell him to get the blood. They yet again wrote him as a less than competent hunter who needed to be "ordered" to do something-that he would have done w/o thinking if he was written IC-just to make Donna appear to be a more large and in charge character.

Even when they do it in these small ways, it bugs the shit out of me now, because they do it so much.  

Edited February 8, 2018 by Myrelle

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Yeah, that was the part that made me kind of lose it for Donna and I blame the writing for it completely. Dean didn't need someone to tell him to get the blood. They yet again wrote him as a less than competent hunter who needed to be "ordered" to do something-that he would have done w/o thinking if he was written IC-just to make Donna appear to be a more large and in charge character.

Even when they do it in these small ways, it bugs the shit out of me now, because they do it so much.  

I don't know if it was to make her larger but she was kind of grumpy and snarky back in Plush, which I was okay with because she was showing a side of her that was human.  I think they were going for her being so upset and angry with the whole situation that she was just taking it out on everyone. I'm gonna reserve judgment on that if we see her again in SPN, which I hope we do because I think she gets reduced to perky, smiley sidekick when she's around Jody. And right now I'm not super into Wayward Sisters, but I love Donna but I don't like the Donna they write when she's around Jody.

[bozodegama]

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I'd say that its just an inconsistency in the writing.   One week Dean hold a gun to a teenagers head because he's so desperate to get to their mom, the next week he's totally "oh well, its been two days, we live in monster land.  Mom Who?"

I think Cas's little smirk was just because he was pleased with himself.  He was trying to bait Lucifer and it was working. 

Yeah maybe your right.  The writing has been so off this season.  Cass smiling weirdly a few times, doesn't even say "Hello Dean" when they see him, Sam getting depressed out of the blue about seeing Lucifer's face (like 7 years ago), writers breaking out Deans theme at the end of the last episode and it doesn't even register with Sam, like 10 plot holes (Michael, Asmodeus, Mary, are they going to leave Kaia dead on the ground all the way into next season?)  that need fixing.  This season has been bad so far.  I really hope tonight ep is good.  

[MysteryGuest]

20 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I get that you don't like Destiel but I'm not talking about Destiel.  

I'm not really talking about Destiel.  Honestly, that's never on my radar much because I just don't see it.  And I'm certainly not trying to diminish the relationship that Dean and Cas have and have had.  It's obviously close and certainly born from very unique circumstances. So yes, there's a bond, and yes Dean loves Cas, but I have to believe that he probably loves his mother just as much, though in a different way.  

I probably just overreacted to your post, as it seemed you were saying that Dean's grief was all about Cas, and no one else.  My personal opinion is that it was about Cas and Mary and Jack and...  In just a matter of minutes, they lost everyone they considered friend and ally. That's pretty damn devastating.

[catrox14]

26 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I probably just overreacted to your post, as it seemed you were saying that Dean's grief was all about Cas, and no one else.  My personal opinion is that it was about Cas and Mary and Jack and...  In just a matter of minutes, they lost everyone they considered friend and ally. That's pretty damn devastating.

IMO, the grief continuum was Cas>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Mary>>>>>>>>Crowley>>>>>>>Kelly.  I said it was almost exclusively about Castiel, not ONLY. And I do stand by that reading. 

As to Sam's depression, maybe he's having weirdly delayed grief but I don't know why since he was on board with Mary being alive, seemed to readily accept that Cas was gone and then he focused on Jack.  So going forward I don't know why he's depressed about Mary when he knows where she is and eventually they'll figure out how to save her. 

I would think he would get some comfort remembering that the uber powerful Jack is there to protect her.

[TFWBT]

Dean gives a ton of references to Mary in the early episodes, so I really disagree that Castiel is so high above his mom. Mom was a subject of repeat conversation throughout those early episodes. In Advanced Thanatology, look at Dean's reaction to the boy saying "I miss my mom". Notice he asks about his mom, not Castiel, to Billie. In the counseling scene, it's all about Mary. When Castiel came back, that sparked hope for Dean, which is why he had the mood change. He is really great friends with Castiel, not denying that, but if he was so heartbroken over Castiel himself, then he wouldn't have been fine with not talking to Castiel and not caring that they don't see him for such a long period. He wouldn't have been so easily fooled by a fake.

The brothers switch moods based on their perception of Jack. Dean was scared of Jack in the beginning. When Jack brought Castiel back, Dean no longer saw him as this huge scary thing and had hope again. In Tombstone, Sam starts getting scared of Jack. Notice his little head tilt when Jack demonstrates his power and again in the closet when he's talking to Dean.

Sam has been showing fear of Lucifer for awhile. It was in background in 11. He tried to put that aside for Jack (although you can tell he's scared in 13.01). In Breakdown, there's a ton of hell imagery. Sam thinks that his mom is stuck and being tortured by Lucifer, so of course he's really depressed. 

 

He knows something went wrong with Jack's rescue mission.

[trxr4kids]

I'm sure Dean would miss his mom if she had ever acted like one or if he had ever been allowed to be a child, what we saw instead was flashbacks to Dean comforting Mary and Mary hunting a werewolf but not bothering to demon proof her house thereby protecting her children after she made a demon deal. But hey she sure looks protective and nurturing towards the devils spawn, if I was Dean or Sam I can't say I'd be all that broken up to have her gone.

[gonzosgirrl]

I just can't agree that Sam has shown latent fear of Lucifer. Even when he was going to the cage in S11 there wasn't much fear written in or shown through the performance*, IMO. And then once Lucifer came on board to help against Amara there was even less, and during the Rick Springfield/President Skeevy run, there was none. Maybe we were supposed to sense some trepidation in S13, but not (again IMO) enough to buy this whole 'I've seen his face and it keeps me awake at night' stuff. Don't get me wrong - I think Sam SHOULD have had all these nightmares and repressed fears & feelings, but I don't think we've been shown that - not at all.

 

ETA: * I mean latent fear, not fear of him in the moment, when he was actively beating the crap out of them. Sam seemed more disdainful than scared when Luci was taking him on the trips down memory lane.

Edited February 16, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[ILoveReading]

I don't buy this whole 'Sam's scared of Lucifer either."  Especially since Sam had an opportunity to bascially look Lucifer in they eye and tell him to go beep himself. 

54 minutes ago, TFWBT said:

Notice he asks about his mom, not Castiel, to Billie. In the counseling scene, its all about Mom

I thought the reason Dean didn't ask Billie about Cas was because he was asking her if Mary was still alive.  At that point he knew Cas was dead. 

With the grief counseling they claimed to be brothers who lost their mom.  It seems a better cover story for the three of them to be there then, I lost my best friend.

1 hour ago, TFWBT said:

then he wouldn't have been fine with not talking to Castiel and not caring that they don't see him for such a long period. He wouldn't have been so easily fooled by a fake.

We were told he was talking to Cas though.  Because all along we're told its Sam and then when it comes time for the apology suddenly it's Dean.  We were told last season that Dean can instantly tell something wrong with Cas over the phone, so I call it bad writing. 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, TFWBT said:

In Advanced Thanatology, look at Dean's reaction to the boy saying "I miss my mom". Notice he asks about his mom, not Castiel, to Billie.

Context and order of narrative matter.

Mary was largely brought up by Sam, not Dean.

Castiel was discussed as soon as Dean saw Billie he was like nope, I saw Castiel kill you.  And then Billie became sarcastic with Dean about Castiel being dead.  Dean saw his wings and  burned his body. Billie essentially confirmed he was dead so he had no reason to ask about Castiel any further especially since he had prayed for Castiel's return, and others return already to no avail. Dean always mentioned Castiel before anyone else, including Mary, in his prayer to Chuck. 

Dean asked about Mary because the AW was being discussed and he wanted to know if she was alive. 

You skipped right over Dean flipping out about Castiel to Sam at the end of  13.3

Mary came up in the Shifterpist's office because of Sam and Jack. Not Dean. The cover was they were mourning their mother. Dean didn't even want to be on the hunt at all.

1 hour ago, TFWBT said:

He is really great friends with Castiel, not denying that, but if he was so heartbroken over Castiel himself, then he wouldn't have been fine with not talking to Castiel and not caring that they don't see him for such a long period. He wouldn't have been so easily fooled by a fake.

I suppose if Buck Lemming's goal was to get Castiel fans pissed at Dean or to undermine their relationship, then I guess it worked for some, not for me, cause I see it for the plot contrivance it was.

IMO, since they already painted themselves into a corner by having to take Cas off the board so they could get to the Bad Place and WS, and had shown Sam being fooled, they couldn't let him only be fooled, so Dean was also retroactively, since IMO, the narrative suggested prior to 13.13, he was only speaking with Sam. Combine that with all the Dean/Cas stuff in s12 when Dean knew right away something was wrong with Castiel over the phone and suddenly now he doesn't, it's PLOT PLOT PLOT contrivance.

I like another commenter's head canon that Dean didn't know because he didn't want to think anything was up with Castiel.  None of that is any kind of condemnation of their relationship. Ship or not ship.  YMMV

All that said, going forward I think Dean and Cas will be just fine. Dean apologized for not realizing it was a fake and Cas said well he was a shapeshifter and he understood.  I think given they are fighting in battle together in the promo, it's all good in the house of Dean/Cas and TFW.  I'm not worried.

Edited February 16, 2018 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

43 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I just can't agree that Sam has shown latent fear of Lucifer. Even when he was going to the cage in S11 there wasn't much fear written in or shown through the performance*, IMO. And then once Lucifer came on board to help against Amara there was even less, and during the Rick Springfield/President Skeevy run, there was none. Maybe we were supposed to sense some trepidation in S13, but not (again IMO) enough to buy this whole 'I've seen his face and it keeps me awake at night' stuff. Don't get me wrong - I think Sam SHOULD have had all these nightmares and repressed fears & feelings, but I don't think we've been shown that - not at all.

 

ETA: * I mean latent fear, not fear of him in the moment, when he was actively beating the crap out of them. Sam seemed more disdainful than scared when Luci was taking him on the trips down memory lane.

Taking my response to the season 11 discussion thread, because I think it fits best there.

[Wayward Son]

25 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I suppose if Buck Lemming's goal was to get Castiel fans pissed at Dean or to undermine their relationship, then I guess it worked for some, not for me, cause I see it for the plot contrivance it was.

 

I'm far from a Dean apologist, as you and other regulars around here know, but I don't really find any of actions this season with regards to Cas worthy of being pissed at him. Dean and Sam going periods without talking to the secondary characters is pretty par for the course on this show due to the shows refusal to allow anyone other than J2 to appear in every episode. Dean and Sam didn't know about the kidnapping and assumed he was alright since from their perspective he'd been keeping in contact with them. Compared to  the likes of LARP and the Real Girl where the brothers last saw Castiel bleeding from his eyes and clearly distressed and decide making braveheart speeches and LARPing is more important than looking for him this season was pretty tame IMO LOL

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Compared to  the likes of LARP and the Real Girl where the brothers last saw Castiel bleeding from his eyes and clearly distressed and decide making braveheart speeches and LARPing is more important than looking for him this season was pretty tame IMO LOL

Wait, what? I don't remember that at all....

[Wayward Son]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Wait, what? I don't remember that at all....

Season 8. The last time they saw him was in Torn and Frayed when they were just beginning to work out something was wrong with him. This scene was directly after he killed Samandriel IIRC. The next episode after that was LARP and the Real Girl. We didn't see Cas again that season till Goodbye Stranger. 

[trxr4kids]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Wait, what? I don't remember that at all....

Oh thank you, I thought I'd lost my mind. Although the ffwd button is my friend.

[gonzosgirrl]

12 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I'm far from a Dean apologist, as you and other regulars around here know, but I don't really find any of actions this season with regards to Cas worthy of being pissed at him. Dean and Sam going periods without talking to the secondary characters is pretty par for the course on this show due to the shows refusal to allow anyone other than J2 to appear in every episode. Dean and Sam didn't know about the kidnapping and assumed he was alright since from their perspective he'd been keeping in contact with them. Compared to  the likes of LARP and the Real Girl where the brothers last saw Castiel bleeding from his eyes and clearly distressed and decide making braveheart speeches and LARPing is more important than looking for him this season was pretty tame IMO LOL

Just couldn't leave it there, huh? LOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!

 

PS...  As far as Dean and Sam know, Cas was back in heaven (where he was taking Samandriel's (who he had just murdered) dead body), and he before he left he told Dean he was fine re: the bleeding eye.

Edited February 16, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Wayward Son]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

Just couldn't leave it there, huh? LOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!

LOL I was just pointing out that IMO this seasons handling of the brothers reaction to Castiel being off screen wasn't offensive particularly compared to how they've handled his absence in past seasons. I mean if people can get through the aforementioned season 8 absence and still believe in a Dean/Cas friendship then I don't see how this season would be the thing to make people doubt it. That's all I was saying lol. 

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Season 8. The last time they saw him was in Torn and Frayed when they were just beginning to work out something was wrong with him. This scene was directly after he killed Samandriel IIRC. The next episode after that was LARP and the Real Girl. We didn't see Cas again that season till Goodbye Stranger. 

He blipped out after killing Samandriel, didn't he? Didn't they presume he'd gone back to Heaven?

[Wayward Son]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Just couldn't leave it there, huh? LOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!

 

PS...  As far as Dean and Sam know, Cas was back in heaven (where he was taking Samandriel's (who he had just murdered) dead body), and he before he left he told Dean he was fine re: the bleeding eye.

 

Just now, catrox14 said:

He blipped out after killing Samandriel, didn't he? Didn't they presume he'd gone back to Heaven?

Replying in all episodes thread.

[SueB]

@Res  ... from the Spoilers and Speculation thread:

Quote

Quote

 

  1 HOUR AGO, SUEB SAID:

OTOH, Billie saying they were NOT getting into heaven and would go straight to the Empty DID stick in Dean's head so now that he knows there's some reason Billie is not just out to have them dropped off into nothing, I think he knows something is up.  And they are sort of guardians of Jack. 

 

UGH! If that's true, which it probably is because I absolutely HATE that Idea, just UGH! No offense to you or anyone who likes/loves this idea. I'm only giving my Opinion in this response as it has some points I have a response to. Not actually intended for specific rebuttal to you. It's more a general POV I MYSELF have of these and other points. I mean, Sam willingly, enthusiastically took that on so bully for him but the rest of it absolutely reeks of soap opera level crap which is NOT why I watch. I get that several viewers absolutely love this angle and the, what do they call him, the "sweet, little cinnamon bun" (whatever that means) but he and his whole storyline is absolutely mind numbing to me. So much could have been done with it that would be vastly interesting but, no, we have to have the nature vs nurture debate yet again, like we have had a few seasons worth of that over Sam ad nauseum. Oh, but this is yet another monster, a neph which we haven't had before, so let's do a combo of nature vs nurture with a heavy helping of "I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way." Cuz that's riveting TV! That's why our viewship hasn't dropped yet! They love our "good monsters' have morals and soap platform". Let's give them more! JK, not really.  No, seriously not kidding. This is NOT why I watch the show that actually used to be about the supernatural and not how to successful raise Lucifer's baby to be a productive member of society. First, don't ignore him or be mean as it will hurt the neph's feelings and make everyone think you are a bully and big ol' meanie. It doesn't matter if his birth helped kill your best friend and lose your mother. Be NICE DAMNIT!!!!                                                                                                                      

Quote

 

  1 HOUR AGO, SUEB SAID:

Bottom Line: I think Dean picked up those rifts are cosmically important and that Billie can't wipe the Winchester off the board like she wants to because they have a role to play.

 

Yep, they have a role to play. It's called being the leads of the show so they have to have their requisite, newly contracted 10 minutes of screen time each episode to start it then close it to round things off nicely so that you can ignore how they aren't really in their show as much anymore. JJ. Maybe.

But seriously, this quote and the other one

Quote

 

  1 HOUR AGO, SUEB SAID:

They've met Angels, Demons, Death (twice), random pagan gods, Amara, and God (Chuck) who've ALL said they are special/important.  By now, I wouldn't be surprised if that stuff doesn't just go in one ear and out the other.

 

  

Is because there are NO repercussion for NOT listening! Seriously, what has actually happened if they didn't listen, they are special so someone will save them if they do mess up. I mean, just starting recently, Benny saved Dean from Purgatory, Gadreel "saved" Sam from Death, Crowley "saved" Sam from Gadreel, Sam half-assed a random cure to "save" Dean (and even though that should've NEVER worked, it did because the plot (AKA showrunner) needed it to)[#STILLEXTREMELYBITTER #SUPREMESOURPATCHESXAMILLIONBITTERNESS], Charile #MYEYESCANNOTROLLHARDENOUGHOVERTHIS ********, Sam, Rowena, Crowley and Cas "save" Dean, etc. 

They are threatened continuously and yet nothing really happens to them ever because they are "special" which is why I laughed hysterically at the TV during the S11 opener with Billie taunting Sam about the "Empty" oooh, ahhh, oooo, BS. I also openly dared the TV every time Billie was on to do that. Plot (AKA Showrunners) had Cas do it instead because they cannot shake up the formula anymore even though it's the 11-13 freakin' season. They cannot even halfway make the "superdooper, superpowered marshmallow" naughty. #MYEYESCANNOTROLLHARDENOUGHOVERTHIS

So whatever repercussion they want to happen to Dean or the brothers over the world hopping. It will either go to another character or be resolved in an episode or two because they cannot even begin to write outside the tried and true formula if their life depended on it.

******** I will NEVER forgive TPTB for coming up with a lame-arse "cure" for the MoC or allowing that half-arsed cure to work on an only once before seen demon. Plus, how is it after 4000+ years Cain never found, much less heard, of that book? Or are you trying to tell me that our "heroes" used a "cure" with repercussions that even the "Father of Murder" wouldn't tempt? I HATE, HATE, HATE, HATE that they removed that Mark!!! Because I really, REALLY feel that it was something that they, specifically Dean, should have had to live with forever! 

Did I mention how much I hate the crap they pulled in Season 10 making it my least favorite of all time?!

 

 

So, since I personally call Jack a "cinnamon roll" (because to me he is!), I can't really agree with not liking where they are going with the guardianship.  My ONE response to your statement in bold regarding Sam taking on Jack:

- While I totally agree Dean rejected responsibility for Jack at the start, in "The Bad Place" Dean declared Jack was family.  So, it's no longer just "on Sam", they have both chosen Jack as someone they are going to look out for.  And after Jack went to such lengths to save Mary, I can't see how Sam or Dean would ever respond otherwise.  Jack has shown nurture vs nature wins (although we could get a surprise, it almost to the point where that would be OOC and they would attempt to rescue him from whatever drove a not-cinnamon-roll behavior). And that's completely in keeping with the Team Free Will ethos of the show.  So, I think showing Jack overcome his nature with the nurture of the Winchesters is PRECISELY what the show is about.  I think he was likely intended to be a one-season character but his popularity will (like Castiel) make it more probable that he stays around.  Not positive on that.  They still have a utopian future for him to build somewhere someday.    
 

Edited February 19, 2018 by SueB

[gonzosgirrl]

I just wish the show had the balls to make someone straight up evil  without making them a cartoon villain (I'm looking at you Assmodeus). There hasn't been one since Abaddon. I hate that Jack became a cinnamon roll - he's the spawn of Satan. But he's also Dabb's wet dream to get the coveted younger audience, so if they do write him out, I'm sure it will be a Hallmark movie meets After School Very Special Episode. I don't see how they can keep him in Winchester World since they've made him so powerful, but I'm sure they'll find some plotonium to power him down like they did with Castiel.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

- While I totally agree Dean rejected responsibility for Jack at the start, in "The Bad Place" Dean declared Jack was family.  So, it's no longer just "on Sam", they have both chosen Jack as someone they are going to look out for.  And after Jack went to such lengths to save Mary, I can't see how Sam or Dean would ever respond otherwise. 

Actually, Dean didn't reject responsibility. That makes it sound like he had responsibility to begin with. He didn't. Neither did Sam. They didn't create Jack. Only Lucifer did that.  So I think "responsibility" much less "rejecting responsibility" is really loaded and biased against Dean.

Jack is Lucifer's responsibility and to a lesser degree Cas'.  What he became is Dean's problem but not his responsibility.

[ahrtee]

40 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Actually, Dean didn't reject responsibility. That makes it sound like he had responsibility to begin with. He didn't. Neither did Sam. They didn't create Jack. Only Lucifer did that.  So I think "responsibility" much less "rejecting responsibility" is really loaded and biased against Dean.

Jack is Lucifer's responsibility and to a lesser degree Cas'.  What he became is Dean's problem but not his responsibility.

Except I don't think anyone wants Lucifer to take "responsibility" for Jack (especially for his upbringing.)  So by default it has become the Winchester's (and Cas's) responsibility to keep him from going darkside.  Or whatever.  Then it would become their "problem" if they don't stop him.  

Edited February 20, 2018 by ahrtee

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I just wish the show had the balls to make someone straight up evil  without making them a cartoon villain (I'm looking at you Assmodeus). There hasn't been one since Abaddon. I hate that Jack became a cinnamon roll - he's the spawn of Satan. But he's also Dabb's wet dream to get the coveted younger audience, so if they do write him out, I'm sure it will be a Hallmark movie meets After School Very Special Episode. I don't see how they can keep him in Winchester World since they've made him so powerful, but I'm sure they'll find some plotonium to power him down like they did with Castiel.

That's pretty much how I felt about Benny... and Gadreel... but now that they've gone there, I personally am happy that they aren't going straight up evil with Jack. For me, that they haven't and haven't even tried to "tease" us with the tired "will he or won't he go evil?" thing is unexpected from the way the show has been recently. I'm glad they let Sam's hope be justified this time and that they didn't bother with the melodramatic "tease." Letting it stay with the bad guy - Lucifer - being the bad guy and leaving it at that is fine with me.

Brought over from the "Spoilers with peculation" thread:

3 hours ago, Res said:

Is because there are NO repercussion for NOT listening! Seriously, what has actually happened if they didn't listen, they are special so someone will save them if they do mess up. I mean, just starting recently, Benny saved Dean from Purgatory, Gadreel "saved" Sam from Death, Crowley "saved" Sam from Gadreel, Sam half-assed a random cure to "save" Dean (and even though that should've NEVER worked, it did because the plot (AKA showrunner) needed it to)[#STILLEXTREMELYBITTER #SUPREMESOURPATCHESXAMILLIONBITTERNESS], Charile #MYEYESCANNOTROLLHARDENOUGHOVERTHIS ********, Sam, Rowena, Crowley and Cas "save" Dean, etc. 

They are threatened continuously and yet nothing really happens to them ever because they are "special" which is why I laughed hysterically at the TV during the S11 opener with Billie taunting Sam about the "Empty" oooh, ahhh, oooo, BS. I also openly dared the TV every time Billie was on to do that. Plot (AKA Showrunners) had Cas do it instead because they cannot shake up the formula anymore even though it's the 11-13 freakin' season. They cannot even halfway make the "superdooper, superpowered marshmallow" naughty. #MYEYESCANNOTROLLHARDENOUGHOVERTHIS

In my opinion, this started with Benny.*** I think when lots of fans enjoyed the teddy bear vampire angle, things went from there. Then we got "misunderstood" Gadreel the next season. Never mind that he had killed a whole bunch of fairly innocent angels and poor, innocent Kevin; when it came down to it, they didn't have Gadreel go full on evil either. At least with Jack we're starting out with him not being so ambiguous only to have the need to have him do some grand sacrifice to redeem himself. My opinion on that one.

*** At least more long term. Jesse was probably one of the first examples of this... at least that didn't "go bad" that we know of. Since most of the examples before that eventually succumbed to one sort of pressure or another: Lenore, Lenore's nest, Amy Pond, the rugaru in "Metamorphosis," etc., Benny was the first one where the point was emphasized that he wanted to be good, and that there were redemption arcs to back that up... unless I'm missing someone.

I'm not sure if Castiel counts, since he's somewhat of a different case maybe since he's not technically a "monster."

Quote

 

So whatever repercussion they want to happen to Dean or the brothers over the world hopping. It will either go to another character or be resolved in an episode or two because they cannot even begin to write outside the tried and true formula if their life depended on it.

******** I will NEVER forgive TPTB for coming up with a lame-arse "cure" for the MoC or allowing that half-arsed cure to work on an only once before seen demon. Plus, how is it after 4000+ years Cain never found, much less heard, of that book? 1) Or are you trying to tell me that our "heroes" used a "cure" with repercussions that even the "Father of Murder" wouldn't tempt? I HATE, HATE, HATE, HATE that they removed that Mark!!! 2) Because I really, REALLY feel that it was something that they, specifically Dean, should have had to live with forever!

 

1) Where "heroes" = Sam, then yes, this is what Carver seemed to be implying, in my opinion... so said Chuck. However despite their trying, I resisted, because LOL-canon Carver, in my opinion.

2) I would say something more in depth about this, but it would just get bitter quickly... We'll leave it as, in my opinion, that had about as much chance of happening as Dean killing Death having bad consequences did.

[gonzosgirrl]

I'm not going round and round on it again - but there was precedent for vampires 'going straight' before Benny came along.

With 'Jack', everything lead up to there at least being some evil in him - his mother set a freaking bible on fire just by touching it. Instead they made him this one dimensional cinnamon roll who just wants to be loved.

[SueB]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Actually, Dean didn't reject responsibility. That makes it sound like he had responsibility to begin with. He didn't. Neither did Sam. They didn't create Jack. Only Lucifer did that.  So I think "responsibility" much less "rejecting responsibility" is really loaded and biased against Dean.

Jack is Lucifer's responsibility and to a lesser degree Cas'.  What he became is Dean's problem but not his responsibility.

Just to clarify.... as we are in a bitterness thread and I want to avoid debate...I was basing my statement of 'rejecting responsibility' based on the following:
 

In 13.01

Quote

SAM: Listen I-I think we should take him back to the bunker with us. I know what you’re gonna say…
DEAN: I agree.
SAM: W-What?
DEAN: I agree.
SAM: So you… changed your mind?
DEAN: No. No, nothing’s changed. He’s still the Devil’s kid. He’s still evil. He still brainwashed Kelly and Cas. And if he hasn’t gone Big Bad yet, he will.
SAM: You don’t know that.
DEAN: Yeah, I do. Cause when have things ever gone right for us? So until I figure out a way to end him, we’ll bring him home. At least there, the only people he can hurt are you and me.

Dean at least assumes responsibility* for not letting him wander the earth, randomly doing evil thing.  Dean assumes responsibility for 'ending him'.  It's more like Dean is his 'guard' vice guardian.

13.02

Quote

JACK: I will hurt someone.
DEAN: You know, my brother thinks you can be saved.
JACK: You don’t believe that.
DEAN: No, I don’t.
JACK: So… if you’re right?
DEAN: If I’m right… and it comes to killing you… I’ll be the one to do it.

Again, Dean assumes personal responsibility for killing Jack rather than let him hurt people.  It's still more 'guard' than 'guardian' but there is almost a promise to not let Jack do the thing he fears.  

13.3

Quote

SAM: Dean, we need him.
DEAN: No, don’t.
SAM: Mom…
DEAN: Don’t. You… If you want to stay here and Mr Miyagi this kid, knock yourself out. I didn’t sign up for that. So I’m going to go to work.

This time Dean, IMO, flat out reject "guardianship" for Jack.  He's still Jack's guard.  And his statements at the end indicate even SEEING Jack makes him nauseous. 

So, IMO, Dean explicitly rejects responsibility for Jack from a guardianship perspective. He's signed up to be his "guard" and kill him to protect the world.  That's it.  

Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Dean is listening to his instincts and setting boundaries.  And good for him.  It's ONLY after:
1) Jack  "comes through for them" in 13.02, which Dean rejected as 'instinct', as a 'sneeze'.
2) Jack performs well as their "intern" on a case in The Big Empty, taking all the 'prove yourself' crap Dean can dish out.
3) Jack is discovered to be the reason Cas is back.
4) Jack works so hard to find a case, be useful, and then just is emotionally distraught over causing the accidental death of the guard.
that Dean softens.  And it's not JUST #3 & #4 IMO.  It's the buildup of evidence.  

But at the start of The Big Empty, he was prepared to kill Jack again.  And it wasn't until Jack not only showed that he was trying to get Mary back but was truly distraught that they thought he would go to Lucifer that Dean 'adopted' him.

So, at this point, Jack is family in Dean's mind.  With Cas back, I think he sees Cas as more of the official "guardian" but he's part of the team and Dean is going to treat him as such.

But not in the beginning.  In the beginning Dean felt he'd go evil and rejected being his guardian.  And that's perfectly reasonable IMO.  

 

*ETA: Chain of Dean logic (which means it's subject to his biases):
- Sam and Dean went to Crowley to break out Lucifer to help to take down Amara. Amara who was here because Sam removed the Mark and Dean took on the Mark in the first place.
- Lucifer impregnated Kelly BEFORE they could get him back in the cage. The fact that Crowley didn't put him back is NOT on them (I think) in Dean's opinion.  
- They respect Cas' wishes and don't kill Kelly prior to childbirth (not that they could have... but they did buy time while Kelly gave birth as they tried to clean up Crowley's mess and put Lucifer in the AU).
- Cas died so the only ones left to deal with Jack are Sam and Dean.  So, Dean, IMO, took responsibility for 'cleaning up' that mess as well.

Edited February 20, 2018 by SueB

[ahrtee]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm not going round and round on it again - but there was precedent for vampires 'going straight' before Benny came along.

 

Thank you.  Can we declare a moratorium on discussions of Benny and Gadreel?  (I'll throw in Ruby and Swan Song, too, if anyone wants.)  They've been discussed to death, have been brought up every time someone wants to prove a point (on *both* sides), and after all this time, AFAIK, not one single mind or opinion has been changed.  I say we declare "agree to disagree" on them, and the only time anyone can mention them again is if we're discussing the characters (or episodes) by themselves, not in relation to anything either Winchester did, didn't do, should have or shouldn't have done, and *especially* not to prove how bad/wrong/misjudged/whitewashed anyone was.  

[Castiels Cat]

29 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm not going round and round on it again - but there was precedent for vampires 'going straight' before Benny came along.

With 'Jack', everything lead up to there at least being some evil in him - his mother set a freaking bible on fire just by touching it. Instead they made him this one dimensional cinnamon roll who just wants to be loved.

The hints are there that Jack could easily go dark.  He enjoys using his power.  He was jacked up when he opened the earth to release the most evil bad manucured dudes for Asmotello.  As a fetus he brainwashed Kelly and Cas by showing them a utopian vision.  It looked like he did a similar thing to Kaia.  Even someone as noble as Cas went had when he had too much power.

Power corrupts most of the time.

Flaming footprints and the burning bible are big hints that he is part Lucifer. I don't think that the ship has sailed.  I guess it matters whether he is simply a plot device or a fully realized character.  Thus far he is a walking door opener for the Winchesters and for Asmodeus.

Lucifer just wanted his power for chaos.  Now maybe he wants him for his grace.  It is hard to believe Lucifer really yearns to be a dad although he is close enough to humanity now that feelings might creep in.  I think the entire point of the grace exchange with Anael was to show that he was aroused because he is hovering so close to humanity.  This struck me as definitely setting up the Lucifer redemption storyline.  Jack will play into that too again as a plot device to humanize Lucifer.

The actor is really doing  a great job.

Edited February 20, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Wayward Son]

5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm not going round and round on it again - but there was precedent for vampires 'going straight' before Benny came along.

With 'Jack', everything lead up to there at least being some evil in him - his mother set a freaking bible on fire just by touching it. Instead they made him this one dimensional cinnamon roll who just wants to be loved.

Actually, if we are taking into account precedents then I feel I should point out that the only comparable scenario to date,  i.e. the anti-Christ Jesse, who was the son of a demon, was also portrayed as morally good. At least we haven’t been told he turned bad after he disappeared for his adopted parent’s sake* 

 

So if Benny fans want to use Lenore (I assume it’s Lenore you’re referring to) as justification for Benny’s cuddly nature then it’s only fair they also take into account Jesse to explain Jack’s cuddly nature ;)

 

ETA: The Show wasn’t very clear in the biology of Jesse unlike Jack who is explicitly stated to be half human and half angel. Jesse mom was a virgin IIRC and it could be argued she was quite literally a surrogate for a 100% demonic child which arguably makes him even more corrupt than Jack who at least is half human.

Edited February 20, 2018 by Wayward Son

[AwesomO4000]

5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

With 'Jack', everything lead up to there at least being some evil in him - his mother set a freaking bible on fire just by touching it. Instead they made him this one dimensional cinnamon roll who just wants to be loved.

I personally think - especially in light of @Castiels Cat's observations above *** that it's too early to say that Jack being one-dimensional (though I don't find him so), and a cinnamon roll who just wants to be loved will somehow mean he won't do anything bad or evil. A character who just wants to be loved or wants to prove themselves has all sorts of potential to go evil or do evil, in my opinion... with Castiel at times when he was trying to "do good" and Sam for that matter as examples. Neither one of them went on the wrong path they did on purpose. They were originally trying to help. And I think even Crowley fits the bill here, since his wanting to be loved - or specifically wanting prove his mother wrong for not being able to love him - was part of his deal... he even said he built his empire on it or something to that effect.

So for me it doesn't really matter if Jack is good or just wants to be loved, because maybe that's not necessarily an indication of how his actions are going to turn out in the end. As was said above, the potential for misuse of power - even accidentally - is still there... The danger may be even greater, because Jack appears to be a cinnamon roll. Straight up evil is usually recognizable. Potential evil - even unintentional evil - lurking in the innocent seeming package is maybe less so... Of course this might be influenced by me being more creeped out by evil children and clowns than straight up evil characters, so it could just be me.

Besides as far as I'm concerned, we have enough evil and/or amoral characters this season and somehow seem to be picking up yet more now with Anael.

*** (And why yes, based on that post I am changing my mind from what I said above about the show being unambiguous about Jack's nature and not teasing us... I do that sometimes. Because thinking more on it, I think the potential is still there and that there have been many hints... so not unambiguous or not teasing at all, so I jumped the gun and was wrong on that.)

5 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Thank you.  Can we declare a moratorium on discussions of Benny and Gadreel?  (I'll throw in Ruby and Swan Song, too, if anyone wants.)  They've been discussed to death.

My apologies.

[AwesomO4000]

25 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Actually, if we are taking into account precedents then I feel I should point out that the only comparable scenario to date,  i.e. the anti-Christ Jesse, who was the son of a demon, was also portrayed as morally good. At least we haven’t been told he turned bad after he disappeared for his adopted parent’s sake*

This is a good point.

25 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

ETA: The Show wasn’t very clear in the biology of Jesse unlike Jack who is explicitly stated to be half human and half angel. Jesse mom was a virgin IIRC and it could be argued she was quite literally a surrogate for a 100% demonic child which arguably makes him even more corrupt than Jack who at least is half human.

I think there was good anecdotal proof that he was half human and half demon. It was said that one of the reasons that the demons couldn't find him at first was that his half human / half demon nature and his corresponding power hid him from them. If he had just been demon, I don't think his powers would have been as great. I also think Castiel probably would have been able to tell the difference, and likely would have known if he was strictly demon.

We've also had other - albeit more recent - examples of half human beings like nephilum being fairly benign*, but we didn't have as much information on them as we did Jesse.

* And was there one example of evil ones? I can't remember if the angel mutants feeding on Claire's mother were nephilum or something else.

[Wayward Son]

16 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

think there was good anecdotal proof that he was half human and half demon. It was said that one of the reasons that the demons couldn't find him at first was that his half human / half demon nature and his corresponding power hid him from them. If he had just been demon, I don't think his powers would have been as great. I also think Castiel probably would have been able to tell the difference, and likely would have known if he was strictly demon.

We've also had other - albeit more recent - examples of half human beings like nephilum being fairly benign*, but we didn't have as much information on them as we did Jesse.

* And was there one example of evil ones? I can't remember if the angel mutants feeding on Claire's mother were nephilum or something else.

That’s a good point about Jesse’s half human nature making him easily hid from demons! Then he’s definitely the closest comparison to Jack the show has given us to date. It was a Grigori which fed on Amelia and the others not a nephilim. 

[gonzosgirrl]

I never said there wasn't precedent for Jack being 'good' - it's more that I just didn't want him to be. However, unlike Jesse, who was presented to us as a fait accompli, already being raised by 'good' people, Jack was and is the literal spawn of Satan. His mother's touch set a bible on fire simply by virtue of being pregnant with him. I think it's at least fair to say that were lead to expect his existence would not be a good thing. And then we got exactly none of it. I don't believe for a moment that they are going to go there with the character now that he's been embraced by the fandom as a cinnamon roll. I'd like to be wrong - don't think I am.

[Wayward Son]

51 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I never said there wasn't precedent for Jack being 'good' - it's more that I just didn't want him to be. However, unlike Jesse, who was presented to us as a fait accompli, already being raised by 'good' people, Jack was and is the literal spawn of Satan. His mother's touch set a bible on fire simply by virtue of being pregnant with him. I think it's at least fair to say that were lead to expect his existence would not be a good thing. And then we got exactly none of it. I don't believe for a moment that they are going to go there with the character now that he's been embraced by the fandom as a cinnamon roll. I'd like to be wrong - don't think I am.

Fair enough that you didn’t want him to be good. I didn’t want Benny to be good either so I can relate to that annoyance and certainly won’t tell you to change what you wish :). 

 

However, in regards to the bit in bold I am not sure what distinction you’re trying to make. Both Jack and Jesse have questionable lineage - ones half demon and the other is half arch-angel. However, neither had anything to do with that biological parent. Jesse was raised by his adopted parents. Jack on the other hand was primarily influenced by Kelly and Cas in the womb (if one wants to believe his time in the womb impacted jack’s morality in a special way) and he has been under the guidance of Sam since after birth. 

 

Personally, I wouldn’t class either as more supernaturally ‘tainted’ than the other and both of them have had little to no contact with the questionable parent. 

Edited February 20, 2018 by Wayward Son

[gonzosgirrl]

Son. of. Satan > spawn of random demon is the distinction I was trying to make. I get nuture vs nature, but when that nature is the literal devil, it oughta have some kind of meaning. Of course with the version of Satan that the show has devolved into - whiny, petulant overgrown teenager, I guess fathering the sweetest cinnabon ever is par for the course.

Edited February 20, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Wayward Son]

30 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Son. of. Satan > spawn of random demon is the distinction I was trying to make. I get nuture vs nature, but when that nature is the literal devil, it oughta have some kind of meaning. Of course with the version of Satan that the show has devolved into - whiny, petulant overgrown teenager, I guess fathering the sweetest cinnabon ever is par for the course.

 

Personally, I don’t think Supernatural has set up the lore that son of Satan = worse than son of demon. In other shoes, movies or general folk lore certainly Lucifer has been portrayed as the most vile of supernatural creatures and with darker DNA than a regular demon. In Supernatural however he is an arch-angel and hasn’t been presented as any different to the others, aside from the fact he chose to rebel against God, but that is a distinction based on his actions and not on his inherent nature. Based on the lore of the verse biologically there is no reason why a child of Lucifer raised away from Lucifer’s influence would be any worse than say a son of Michael raised away from Michael. They’d both be the son of archangels who are genetically the same species, but had fathers who made different choices in life. 

 

Like I said over the years I’m sure there have been other shows that have portrayed Lucifer as demonic and even worse than a common demon. However, I don’t believe that’s the case with Supernatural’s lore where he is presented as an arch-angel the same as Michael, Gabriel and Raphael only one who made the decision to rebel unlike the others. 

Edited February 20, 2018 by Wayward Son

[gonzosgirrl]

LOL, I bet that was Sam's nickname for Lucifer back in the cage. You rebel, you.

[Wayward Son]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

LOL, I bet that was Sam's nickname for Lucifer back in the cage. You rebel, you.

What nickname? 

[catrox14]

Maybe the show is actually Lucifer himself and they have convinced a segment of the audience to buy into the idea that Lucifer is no worse than a misunderstood human being with daddy issues.  Maybe it's meta writing at it's most absurd. True enough he has daddy issues, but misunderstood??? HELL NO.

Chuck wanted his first children, the archangels, and Castiel level angels to LOVE humanity and serve as their protectors. (Naomi said she didn't know when they forgot that was their original mission when she did her about face to help Dean with Sam in s8). Lucifer himself said this and because he refused  he was cast into Hell by Michael on Chuck's orders. This is canonical in the THE END. And because he was so jealous and wanted to prove that God created a lesser being than the angels, he turned Lilith into the first demon and turned Azazel et al into the Princes of Hell. So, really Lucifer is the Father of Demons. 

So to me, no demons nor Jesse are worse than Lucifer. They are his children essentially if not the direct fruit of his wavelength of celestial intent.  I swear I don't know if the show remembers this about Lucifer yet it did happen, it is canonical and that is why there can never be any demon worse than Lucifer, not even Demon!Dean. Because Lucifer 's intentions are to destroy humans via psychological, emotional, mental and physical torment   Demons just followed suit and became his minions .

So, sorry, the show can try to walk that back, and some viewers can choose to not remember that Lucifer did that, and also, that he actually did commit actual rape on POTUS Jeff and Kelly Kline, but this viewer has not. So yeah he's the literal worst.

Jesse has more power but he never had the intention to harm anyone on purpose. He didn't even know he was the anti-Christ (that's what they called him in s5 no matter the retcon now of Dean calling Jack the anti-Christ. Maybe they got it wrong in s5 but it's canon that's what they said he was.  Maybe we just have two Anti-Christs now. Anyway, Jesse was a legitimate human child born in a child's body at birth. He didn't come out as part wavelenght of celestial intent like Jack was at birth. And then auto aged to be 20 years old. 

And to me, Lucifer will be/has always been the most evil, the least redeemable because his INTENTION was and IMO still remains the demise of humanity for whatever reasons. He intentionally wanted to harm them. Jesse never wanted that.  So then I argue that no, Jesse, is not in fact worse than Lucifer, at least not at 8 years old.  Now would I give some eye teeth for Jesse to come back as an 19 year old to fight Jack? HELL YES. But what I hope would happen is that someone ....like I dunno, Dean, remembers that Jesse exists, decides to find him and he and Jack together fight Lucifer for reasons.

Lucifer is the only character who would benefit from a good Jack who never goes dark side;  a redemption of Lucifer through his child.  Sam, Dean, and Castiel don't need Jack for redemption as IMO, they've all each had their redemption time and again by saving people, hunting things and Yes I include Castiel because he turned against the angels to help Dean and Sam in s4 and s5.  He stays forever redeemed no matter what silly choices his makes. Just like for me Dean and Sam will always be heroes because the good they have done for humanity outweighs the bad and stupid choices. 

Anyway, all that is to say that Lucifer is still, the most evil, duplicitous, cruel and awful character in the show which means his spawn should be showing some dark side tendencies unless the point of Jack is to redeem Lucifer in some way.

Going forward,  I think Dean and Sam are headed for another break given the seeds planted when Sam gave the spell book pages to Rowena and Dean was not happy about it. 

Edited February 20, 2018 by catrox14

[Wayward Son]

18 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Maybe the show is actually Lucifer himself and they have convinced a segment of the audience to buy into the idea that Lucifer is no worse than a misunderstood human being with daddy issues.  Maybe it's meta writing at it's most absurd. True enough he has daddy issues, but misunderstood??? HELL NO.

Chuck wanted his first children, the archangels, and Castiel level angels to LOVE humanity and serve as their protectors. (Naomi said she didn't know when they forgot that was their original mission when she did her about face to help Dean with Sam in s8). Lucifer himself said this and because he refused  he was cast into Hell by Michael on Chuck's orders. This is canonical in the THE END. And because he was so jealous and wanted to prove that God created a lesser being than the angels, he turned Lilith into the first demon and turned Azazel et al into the Princes of Hell. So, really Lucifer is the Father of Demons. 

So to me, no demons nor Jesse are worse than Lucifer. They are his children essentially if not the direct fruit of his wavelength of celestial intent.  I swear I don't know if the show remembers this about Lucifer yet it did happen, it is canonical and that is why there can never be any demon worse than Lucifer, not even Demon!Dean. Because Lucifer 's intentions are to destroy humans via psychological, emotional, mental and physical torment   Demons just followed suit and became his minions .

So, sorry, the show can try to walk that back, and some viewers can choose to not remember that Lucifer did that, and also, that he actually did commit actual rape on POTUS Jeff and Kelly Kline, but this viewer has not. So yeah he's the literal worst.

Jesse has more power but he never had the intention to harm anyone on purpose. He didn't even know he was the anti-Christ (that's what they called him in s5 no matter the retcon now of Dean calling Jack the anti-Christ. Maybe they got it wrong in s5 but it's canon that's what they said he was.  Maybe we just have two Anti-Christs now. Anyway, Jesse was a legitimate human child born in a child's body at birth. He didn't come out as part wavelenght of celestial intent like Jack was at birth. And then auto aged to be 20 years old. 

And to me, Lucifer will be/has always been the most evil, the least redeemable because his INTENTION was and IMO still remains the demise of humanity for whatever reasons. He intentionally wanted to harm them. Jesse never wanted that.  So then I argue that no, Jesse, is not in fact worse than Lucifer, at least not at 8 years old.  Now would I give some eye teeth for Jesse to come back as an 19 year old to fight Jack? HELL YES. But what I hope would happen is that someone ....like I dunno, Dean, remembers that Jesse exists, decides to find him and he and Jack together fight Lucifer for reasons.

Lucifer is the only character who would benefit from a good Jack who never goes dark side;  a redemption of Lucifer through his child.  Sam, Dean, and Castiel don't need Jack for redemption as IMO, they've all each had their redemption time and again by saving people, hunting things and Yes I include Castiel because he turned against the angels to help Dean and Sam in s4 and s5.  He stays forever redeemed no matter what silly choices his makes. Just like for me Dean and Sam will always be heroes because the good they have done for humanity outweighs the bad and stupid choices. 

Anyway, all that is to say that Lucifer is still, the most evil, duplicitous, cruel and awful character in the show which means his spawn should be showing some dark side tendencies unless the point of Jack is to redeem Lucifer in some way.

Going forward,  I think Dean and Sam are headed for another break given the seeds planted when Sam gave the spell book pages to Rowena and Dean was not happy about it. 

 

I’m not sure if this post is directed at me, or just general thoughts, but in case it’s directed at me I never said Lucifer was good and/or misunderstood. I agree that Lucifer is pretty much the worst bad guy. The point I was making is that IMO Lucifer is this bad guy because of his CHOICES. As you said when Guck designed the archangels their mission was to love humanity and Lucifer chose to reject this mission and instead set out to destroy humanity. So we are in basic agreement that Lucifer is worse than a lot of the other villains and someone like Jesse. 

 

Where we might disagree is the consequence of these choices. IMO Lucifer is the worst  of the worst because he freely chose to hate humanity. He acts the way he does because he chose to act that way. I’m not excusing his choice and saying he’s just misunderstood or anything else. If anything I’m pinning more of the blame on Lucifer by stating my belief Lucifer freely chose to hate humanity and seek their destruction. If I were some sort of Lucifer apologist it would actually be easier to try and argue “Poor Lucifer. He did all those things because Guck designed him to. He can’t help the way Guck made him”. 

 

So with that in mind I don’t believe Lucifer has some sort of “evil gene” that he passed on to Jack. IMO the show has never told us Lucifer is inherently different to the other archangels. He too is made of a celestial wave of intention just like them. The only difference is he chose to follow a dark path in life. As a result, Jack is a half arch-angel / half human the same as a child of Michael, Gabriel or Raphael would have been. It is now up to Jack whether he chooses to follow in his fathers footsteps or choose a different path for himself. 

Edited February 20, 2018 by Wayward Son

[gonzosgirrl]

11 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

So with that in mind I don’t believe Lucifer has some sort of “evil gene” that he passed on to Jack. IMO the show has never told us Lucifer is inherently different to the other archangels. He too is made of a celestial wave of intention just like them. The only difference is he chose to follow a dark path in life. As a result, Jack is a half arch-angel / half human the same as a child of Michael, Gabriel or Raphael would have been. It is now up to Jack whether he chooses to follow in his fathers footsteps or choose a different path for himself. 

So why the burning bible then?

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So why the burning bible then?

Bad BuckLemming writing. They wanted to throw in a plot point that would make the characters question Jack’ s existance and want for a easy visual without consideration of the long term consequences. That is pretty par for the course with BuckLemming.

[Aeryn13]

I think making Jack one-dimensionally evil would have been boring. And making him one-dimensionally puppy-good as they have done was equally boring. Especially with the canonization of Kelly. She wasn`t evil but that noble saint thing they had going on after her death was really unsubtle. That the character of Jack inherited nothing from his father is pretty silly. Why make him Lucifer`s kid then if it means nothing? But they probably can`t really pull off a conflicted character who can go both ways at any given time. 

Now if they pull anything with Jack, it will be too late because apparently he was born more saintly than any human or angel we have ever known.  

[gonzosgirrl]

19 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Bad BuckLemming writing. They wanted to throw in a plot point that would make the characters question Jack’ s existance and want for a easy visual without consideration of the long term consequences. That is pretty par for the course with BuckLemming.

Maybe. But in my opinion, it's more likely that they intended him to be Lucifer Jr., and then changed their mind in response to the gooey-eyed response to the cinnamon roll. Pretty much everything leading up to his birth, excluding the vision of Nirvana he sent to Cas (which has not come to fruition, and only served to convince Cas not to kill him in utero) portended him being at least a little dark.

7 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think making Jack one-dimensionally evil would have been boring. And making him one-dimensionally puppy-good as they have done was equally boring. Especially with the canonization of Kelly. She wasn`t evil but that noble saint thing they had going on after her death was really unsubtle. That the character of Jack inherited nothing from his father is pretty silly. Why make him Lucifer`s kid then if it means nothing? But they probably can`t really pull off a conflicted character who can go both ways at any given time. 

Now if they pull anything with Jack, it will be too late because apparently he was born more saintly than any human or angel we have ever known.  

Agree, 100%, especially with the bolded.

Edited February 20, 2018 by gonzosgirrl
bolding. duh.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Maybe. But in my opinion, it's more likely that they intended him to be Lucifer Jr., and then changed their mind in response to the gooey-eyed response to the cinnamon roll. 

For a second I thought they were going for a Jasmine-on-Angel-like thing:  everything leading up to the birth seem to spell evil and doom - check, then as a first twist the "kid" appears to be really benevolent, supposedly bringing paradise - check, then the second twist occurs, "kid" is apparently evil and eats people, paradise is only an illusion, last twist (kinda): the intentions were really good and the entity really thought bringing peace like that was a good thing. 

On SPN what you see is what you get. I might change from one episode to another (especially if Bucklemming is involved) but Jack really is a cinnamon roll now.      

[gonzosgirrl]

I can't recall: when Jack was cycling through all these AUs looking for Mary, were any of them the Utopia he showed Cas?

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

So with that in mind I don’t believe Lucifer has some sort of “evil gene” that he passed on to Jack. IMO the show has never told us Lucifer is inherently different to the other archangels. He too is made of a celestial wave of intention just like them. The only difference is he chose to follow a dark path in life. As a result, Jack is a half arch-angel / half human the same as a child of Michael, Gabriel or Raphael would have been. It is now up to Jack whether he chooses to follow in his fathers footsteps or choose a different path for himself. 

My comment was replying to the entire scope of the discussion amongst various members here which is why I included discussion of Jack's status, Jesse, Lucifer's evilness. 

As to Lucifer's gene' being evil, I will argue that repeated behaviors be they good or bad, actually DO change a person. Look at habits. We can as humans pick up good and bad habits over time and lose them. And our brains actually changed with depression. The thinking becomes a bit off and altered. Negative thoughts permeate optimism. 

So, I will argue that Lucifer, having gone after humanity from the get go, was either a flawed angel to begin with, meaning he was already going to be jealous because of Chuck bad engineering, or the Darkness changed him. But they rolled that back with saying the Mark just made him more of what he already was.

But narratively, I'm saying that I think essentially Dabb is trying for Star Wars SPOILER ALERT.

.

.

.

 

Star Wars:

Luke Skywalker: Darth Vader as Jack: Lucifer in that Darth was redeemed in the narrative because his son is good and a hero.  I will eat all the hats if the show actually makes Jack bad now. They've invested too much into him being good.  JMHO.

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So why the burning bible then?

To me, the burning of the Bible only says that she was pregnant with something supernatural and against God's will, not necessarily something evil. I'd suspect any nephilium in utero to burn a Bible because they are believed to be abominations in the eyes of God.

But, then again, I don't believe in inherently evil. Evil isn't something genetic that can be passed on; neither is being good. So, I never considered the Bible burning to be proof of anything.

Edited February 20, 2018 by DittyDotDot