A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[YaddaYadda]

For those who follow spoilers, year when they were filming Cruella's episode, one of the props that didn't make it to the screen was a bicycle with Paige's name on it. It was on the plate in the back.  I remember assuming that Paige/Grace was going to be in that episode.  

[KingOfHearts]

 

For those who follow spoilers, year when they were filming Cruella's episode, one of the props that didn't make it to the screen was a bicycle with Paige's name on it. It was on the plate in the back.  I remember assuming that Paige/Grace was going to be in that episode.

Didn't they film a red carpet scene around 4x17-4x18? Did that become the Author's book-signing scene?

[orza]

The filming at the theater was for the book signing scene. The filming at the ballroom was for the scene in which the Apprentice recruited Isaac to become the new Author.

[Dianthus]

LizaD, on 11 Aug 2015 - 10:37 PM, said:

Crocodile clear-cut Rump's centric, it's even his moniker as the title. Apprentice I think is more split between Anna, Rump and Hook. You could say the past was Rump's story but it gave us plenty of POV from Anna and Hook in present. We got their explanation and feelings as to what was driving their actions.

The parallel was Anna and Hook facing the same choice of imprisoning the Apprentice or not, and how they came to be making that choice in the first place for the same reason, to which Rump used to his advantage. The plot was Rump's but the character moments were Anna's and Hook's.

As for the Woegina thing, the complete 180 I pin point to that's when Jane E. officially took over as Woegina's writer and Rump was being transitioned over to David Goodman but I don't see it as a clear 2A vs 2B. It started in 2A. Remember the whole Rump, Victor, and Jefferson bullying poor poor innocent Woegina? I'm not blaming all the crap on Jane E. either since the epic Victim tour de force is clearly A&E's plan too. But you got to wonder, they keep trying to give Woegina her "Skin Deep" and it just ain't happening. That's probably why they keep digging in their heels even more and grounding up all the other characters under her heels in the process.

Tour de farce. FIFY.

[RadioGirl27]

this kind of came up in the spoiler discussion thread, but concerning The Crocodile and The Apprentice, are those considered more Hook-centric or Rumple-centric, or a bit of both?

I haven't seen The Crocodile in a long time so I don't know, but The Apprentice is Rumple-centric and, to a lesser extent, Anna-centric. Hook is just a prop to Rumple's story (just like he was all 4A).

[HoodlumSheep]

I've decided to take time and begin a small rewatch of the series later this week. Except, I'm limiting myself to 8 episodes per season.

I just need a bit of a refresher. My mind is getting hazy on certain things (especially season 2), and I haven't really rewatched many of the episodes, so it'll be refreshing. I feel like everyone here seems to have every detail of all the episodes memorized somehow. If I rewatch some stuff, maybe I can stop asking y'all so many questions!

My only problem is that I don't know if I should stick with the ones I've picked out already (which include pretty much all of my favorites), or if I should shake things up and choose some that I wouldn't normally be inclined to watch. Or randomly picked some out of a hat.

Season 4 was actually the hardest one to pick 8 out of, because a lot of them were at the same mediocre/wack-a-doodle level, especially the back half.

And the more I'm typing, the more I am being tempted to use the random/hat method. It could be interesting, but I'm also terrified I'll pick all the horrible episodes.

Is anyone else planning a rewatch of some sorts this year? I know Shanna Marie has mentioned skimming season 2. Or has everyone reached the point where rewatching (especially non-favorite eps) is becoming a chore???

Just curious.

*I just discovered the closed summer rewatch thread from 2014. Is it wrong of me to think that 2014 seemed a happier time Once-wise, for many?

Edited August 13, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[KingOfHearts]

 

Is anyone else planning a rewatch of some sorts this year? I know Shanna Marie has mentioned skimming season 2. Or has everyone reached the point where rewatching (especially non-favorite eps) is becoming a chore???

I've only completed one successful rewatch all the way through, and that was a year ago with someone who had never seen it before. Since then, I've tried rewatches, but I get bored and frustrated so easily. Whenever I'm watching S1, it reminds me just how far the show has fallen. For the rest of the seasons, there are only certain episodes I actually enjoy watching for what they are. (The Miller's Daughter, Going Home, Sympathy for the DeVil, etc.) As much as I'm a Oncer, I find most of it incredibly boring to watch a second time. It's a very difficult show to go back and watch repeatedly.

 

I'm only interested in what they do next, not so much what's already happened. At least in the future, even though we know we'll be disappointed, it's not as set in stone because we don't know how it will transpire... if that makes sense.

Edited August 13, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I'm afraid to do a rewatch at this point, especially after 4B, where the retcons were all over the place.  I always rewatch each half-season marathon-style with someone who hasn't watched it before, and then I leave it at that.  I might rewatch again after the entire series is over, and after I leave some time and distance, so I can start "fresh" with Season 1 again.  The only episode I've rewatched more than once is the pilot, but I rewatched during Season 1 and during 2A.  Now, with the babynapping subplot, even the pilot is potentially ruined without a memory potion which only time will provide.

[YaddaYadda]

I've re-watched the two episodes with the Camelot references, came out with a couple of interesting things.

 

I started doing a re-watch of season 4, but I gave up after 4x04 and doing a whole lot of skipping over certain plots I didn't care for.  That being said, I am sort of excited for season 5.  Cautiously optimistic. It should probably last 2 episodes.

[OnceUponAJen]

I'm very excited about season 5. I love Camelot mythology, and I want to see Emma grow stronger (and stronger in her relationship with Hook) by going through the darkness. I was disappointed by some things in S4, but it also gave us some great character growth with Hook and Emma.

[HoodlumSheep]

For season 1, I plan on watching the Pilot, Snow Falls, The Heart Is a Lonely Hunter, Skin Deep, Red-Handed, Hat Trick, An Apple Red as Blood, and A Land Without Magic.

So, the typical/standard season 1 rewatch episodes (at least most of them, if not all). I've decide to include all of the season finales and te pentultimates (unless the dinale is already a double episode).

I've never rewatched 1x21 or 1x22 before, so I'm a little excited about that. But at the same time I look at that list and kind of sigh. It's the same-old, same-old. Most of them are amazing episodes, but I'm wondering if I should watch a different set so it'd feel more refreshing?

Maybe I'll try my luck with the random drawing and then weigh my options.

[KAOS Agent]

I think a random draw could end with you being stuck not just watching bad episodes, but worse, boring and pointless ones. If you're a big Red fan, then "Child of the Moon" might be okay, but otherwise, it's just kind of there. Same with episodes like "Tiny" or "Dreamy" They're not necessarily bad, just not particularly relevant to anything.

[Shanna Marie]

What I've been doing is watching every episode, but I'm fast forwarding through the scenes I don't like or don't care about (depending on where I am in my knitting -- I may sometimes see a scene because I'm at a bad place to pick up the remote). That means I may miss some detail on a plot line I don't care about, but I'm getting a nice refresher on plot lines or characters I like. My resolve to watch at least some of every episode may be tested by the mess that follows the Rumple healing and Cora death, so I may skip from "Manhattan" to "Second Star to the Right." That way I can avoid Lacey, most of the stupid Home Office plot and all the Dark Spot on the Heart nonsense. I can get through some episodes in 15 minutes. Some I do find myself watching all the way through because I forget to fast forward.

 

It's amazing how much more I enjoy the show when I hit FF as soon as I see Regina's face, especially if there are tears in her eyes.

[HoodlumSheep]

I know randomly drawing is pressing my luck, but at least it would be a change of pace. And I actually liked "Dreamy." I know, I know, unpopular opinion.

Let's see, the random draw would have given me:

Pilot, The Thing You Love Most, The Heart Is a Lonely Hunter, Dreamy, Red-Handed, The Stable Boy, The Stranger, and A Land Without Magic.

Not bad. That's half of the ones I would watch anyways. I'm fine with Dreamy, and I can't remember what happens in "The Stranger." That's the one where Rumple thinks August is Baelfire, right? Otherwise I don't remember it at all (Rumple thinking August is Bae is the only thing I'd remember of it).

But I guess I'll stick with my original plans for now. If I get bored I can always fall back on drawing numbers.

Maybe I'll start tonight. It's cloudy and windy, and it was supposed to rain, but I don't think that's going to happen anymore.

Edited August 14, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Rumsy4]

I was rewatching some scenes of early Season 2, and it almost made me weep, but not in a good way. Mary Margaret/Snow is so different in the early episodes after the Curse gets broken! She is more self-confident, and badass, and takes no crap from anyone. She is more like her pre-Cursed self.

 

The scene where Snow and Emma bond over her nursery was one of my favorites, especially when Emma confesses that she is not used to anyone putting her first, and mother and daughter share a hug. But now, I felt sort of uncomfortable thinking about Neverland, Eggnapping and all that. For me, ONCE has lost its rewatch value. I doubt if I'll ever do a full rewatch. 

Edited August 14, 2015 by Rumsy4

[YaddaYadda]

The scene where Snow and Emma bond over her nursery was one of my favorites, especially when Emma confesses that she is not used to anyone putting her first, and mother and daughter share a hug.

 

It was one of the best scenes this show came up with.  It was also one of the hardest ones to watch when Snow is standing there and they have the baby giggle in the background.  It's heartbreaking and haunting.  It's straight up loss, even if Emma is standing right there, it's still loss and mourning everything that could have been.

 

Which makes Snow's Regina worship all the more difficult to swallow.

[Shanna Marie]

I was rewatching some scenes of early Season 2, and it almost made me weep, but not in a good way. Mary Margaret/Snow is so different in the early episodes after the Curse gets broken! She is more self-confident, and badass, and takes no crap from anyone. She is more like her pre-Cursed self.

I know! It's going to make rewatching later episodes a little difficult after she becomes a sanctimonious scaredy cat who worships at the altar of Regina.

 

I was surprised by how much I liked "Tiny." In fact, I watched it almost all the way through and only fast forwarded through the seemingly real-time journey through the airport for the other story line. They used the David/James duality to great effect, and it's always fun seeing James. We had the clash of fairy tale and real world with a confused giant set loose in Storybrooke. We had Mary Margaret with her bow and arrows being badass. We had David at his best, being the nice, normal guy who happens to a hero in the true sense of the word. I love the idea of a giant becoming an honorary dwarf in a world where all of them are "normal" sized.

 

It's also amusingly ironic that after a few episodes in which Hook was limping badly because of the car crash, Colin broke his leg for real, so Hook was still limping a bit when we saw him again, though instead of it being obvious limping it was trying very hard not to limp while not being physically capable of not limping.

 

Though I also found myself thinking during "In the Name of the Brother" that this story couldn't really happen now that everyone has magical healing ability. Both Regina and Emma can heal with the wave of a hand along with Rumple, so there wouldn't be any drama about whether or not someone would live and what the consequences would be. But then that raises the question of why Rumple didn't heal Greg right there at the town line. We saw him heal Belle, and there wasn't any dialogue about even asking him to heal Greg at the accident scene (I skimmed through most of the episode, so it's possible that was brought up later). We've also seen him magically repair stuff. So why not heal Greg while he was still unconscious, repair the car, and move it elsewhere so that Greg would wake up and think he'd just fallen asleep at the wheel? We know he'd still have come back because of who he was, but from their perspective at that time, wouldn't that have seemed like a reasonable solution?

 

Now, though, they shouldn't even have someone as banged up as Hook was because one wave of the hand and poof, all better, and if they don't heal someone when they have the power, they look like jerks. I'm trying to think -- have we seen longer-term consequences of an injury, like Hook's limp, clutching at his ribs, cuts, and bruises, since then? There was David's wound that poisoned him in Neverland, but Neal seemed to be instantly healed of his gunshot wound (#ItHappenedOffscreen), and I don't think anyone's even had a cut or bruise that wasn't magically waved away. After the show has become so weirdly bloodless and cartoony recently, I was very surprised to see Hook looking so realistically battered for multiple episodes.

[orza]

Rumple doesn't go around using magic for charitable or generous acts. People have to make deals with him. That's his thing and it has been hammered home multiple times. Earlier in the season he made a point of saying that he was making an exception when he healed Henry's burns without asking for something in return. He healed Belle and Bae without making a deal because they are his loved ones. Everyone else needs to make a deal with him to benefit from his magic.

 

The camp and lack of blood is not weird. I find it consistent with the direction the show is moving in. Regardless of what online fans want to believe, this is just fluffy entertainment for kids and families to enjoy, not a relationship drama, and they have been consistently making it more and more kid friendly. By adding Frozen and then Ursula and Cruella and now Merida to the mix and keeping the stories plot-driven, they are making a strong statement about what the show is really about and which viewers they really care about. It's a business model that is, apparently, working for them.

[Panopticon]

 

Though I also found myself thinking during "In the Name of the Brother" that this story couldn't really happen now that everyone has magical healing ability. Both Regina and Emma can heal with the wave of a hand along with Rumple, so there wouldn't be any drama about whether or not someone would live and what the consequences would be. But then that raises the question of why Rumple didn't heal Greg right there at the town line. We saw him heal Belle, and there wasn't any dialogue about even asking him to heal Greg at the accident scene (I skimmed through most of the episode, so it's possible that was brought up later). 

 

It was. They explicitly asked Rumple to do it and he refused, saying everyone should just hope Greg died so that he wouldn't be a problem anymore.

 

And I agree-- multiple characters having powerful magic changes the show in many ways. Healing is one of them; it takes the suspense out of almost any injury as long as Emma or Regina is around and currently on TeamHero.

 

A somewhat comparable thing that made me sad on rewatch was Emma's attempts to escape from Jefferson. She was resourceful and clever (although he may have been leaving her the tools to get away to test her). Now? She'd just magic herself out. It's much less human and much more lacking in suspense and possible consequences. 

Edited August 14, 2015 by Panopticon

[HoodlumSheep]

Rewatched the "Pilot" and "Snow Falls" last night: Don't know if I should take this to the episode threads, but I don't think I have much to add besides some general thoughts.

I miss Emma's princess curls. I completely understand that the hair style would probably be pretty time consuming and hard to maintain, but I wish we could see those curls once in a while.

Did they not use false eyelashes in the beginning, at least in the Storybrooke parts? The makeup looks more natural.

Anyways, still love both the episodes. Henry's so tiny! One thing I enjoyed about these episodes were that they were nicely paced, and I didn't have to worry about "shocking" plot twist after plot twist being shoved in my face.

And I want to punch Regina in the face. I miss her being an actual villain. She was so good at it. If she hadn't gone on that over-the-top rant about Emma having no rights concerning Henry, etc. and threatened to destroy Emma...Emma probably would have left town.

So even in the beginning Regina being typical Regina was Regina's biggest problem.

I think I like Graham less than I used to. He's pretty bland. And he's been gone for 3 seasons. The only thing I'm not over about his character is no one knowing that Regina murdered him. But I don't feel like revisiting that at the moment, so I'll move on.

Snow Falls is still amazing. Ginny/Josh work so well together! I can see why some people put this episode on a pedestal. I do not however, as evidenced by the fact that I'm not one of the people who believe "Snow Drifts" is a sacrilege against the original tale. It's still one of the best episodes Once has done though.

Next is "The Heart is a Lonely Hunter" and "Skin Deep," which I'll probably watch tonight unless something comes up.

Edited August 14, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Shanna Marie]

They explicitly asked Rumple to do it and he refused, saying everyone should just hope Greg died so that he wouldn't be a problem anymore.

Whew. So they aren't too stupid to live. That must have been where I ended up fast forwarding most of the episode. I just knew they didn't say anything before putting Greg in an ambulance (and wow, Emma was harsh with Hook -- telling the paramedics to ignore him and tend to Greg. I'm not sure how she diagnosed Hook with broken ribs and ruled out internal injuries right there on the side of the road).

 

And I agree-- multiple characters having powerful magic changes the show in many ways. Healing is one of them; it takes the suspense out of almost any injury as long as Emma or Regina is around and currently on TeamHero.

Yeah, I don't necessarily want a ton of blood and gore, but this is an action-oriented series. People are in danger. The stakes of that danger fall to almost nothing if there's no risk. If not even a cut or a bruise lingers between episodes and if a serious injury can easily be healed then there's not much to get concerned about. The hurt/comfort fanfic writers must be really frustrated (or good at coming up with loopholes). :-)

 

Then again, given the way Emma reacted (or didn't) when she saw Hook's heart almost being crushed, it's not as though it makes that big a difference if she can instantly heal anything instead of worrying about him.

 

Speaking of raising stakes, since I often criticize the writing, I thought I ought to give props when they're merited, and I think the stuff with the red room during Team Princess was a nifty bit of writing. It was a way to convey information and connect the two locales, but it wasn't too easy. There were costs to both Henry and Aurora. Then David had to step up, and the fact that Snow couldn't give him the TLK except in the real world really amped up the stakes because he would be in trouble if they couldn't get home physically, and that meant that there were three lives at stake in the decision about whether to close off the well. (Though no one brings up the possibility of a TLK with Henry -- surely he loves his Grandpa.)

[KAOS Agent]

I actually liked "Dreamy." I know, I know, unpopular opinion.

 

I think sometimes that the one off episodes are better on rewatch because you're not sitting there watching two side characters' backstory and just wanting them to get on with main plot. It's possible "Heart of Gold" might improve on rewatch based on this idea, but I hate Zelena and her sneering monologues so much, I don't think that would work for me. "Dreamy" does display this show's tendency to not close out a plot though. They never showed what happened between Nova & Grumpy once the curse ended. They are human in this world, not dwarf & fairy, so why can't they be together? And no, a brief thing on "Good Morning, Storybrooke" where Nova dumps him because reasons doesn't work for me. This type of episode teaches the audience the lesson not to care about side characters because we'll never get closure. Whatever did happen to Frederick?

 

"Dreamy" is also one that makes me rage about the treatment of adultery on this show. In S1, it was shown as bad and horrible (even though we knew David & Mary Margaret were really married). The town shunned Mary Margaret and Regina spray painted "Tramp" on her car. It was nuanced in that Snowing's True Love was drawing them together, but we were shown that it was wrong and it hurt other people. It doesn't matter how much you love the other person, you don't get to break your vows to someone else. Then in S4, we had Snow telling Regina it wasn't all that bad that Regina is having an affair. And even Marian giving her blessing. What the hell? I do find it interesting that the Outlaw Queen affair is one of the few times on this show where the audience rebelled in terms of letting poor misunderstood Regina get away with things. Even Evil Regals (and not just Swan Queen fans) weren't impressed with what was going down and the show's excusing it. It's wrong. Why is it being treated differently than in S1? And now I'm thinking it's a good thing I'm not even remotely interested in a rewatch because I'll just get angry.

[HoodlumSheep]

I think "Dreamy" is fine if you don't think about future dropped plot lines and stuff though. When you first watch it you don't know that Grumpy/Nova will never get closure or that the views on adultery seem to kind of change. It's one of the weaker episodes but I don't think it's as horrible as most people seem to have deemed it.

It does bug me that they're so against Mary Margaret for most of the episode, and then suddenly they're there supporting her in the end. It's like, what happened to change all their minds so suddenly?

But anyways, the episode is passable if you don't think of future events. I'd still rewatch it a dozen times over before "Bleeding Through" or most of the 4b eps.

Rewatched 1x07, 1x12, and 1x15. Skin Deep was definitely the strongest, and I think I prefer Red-Handed next just because of Ruby. Graham is bland although I think the writing is stronger in his episode.

The most I miss from season one is the side characters. At least they got to do something instead instead of being glorified cameos. It's still hard for me to believe that Ruby wouldn't be right there with the gang trying to help save the town. But maybe she doesn't want to be anywhere near Regina, which is understandable.

Edited August 15, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Delphi]

I also love Dreamy. Mostly because I loved Mary Margaret in that episode. But I'm not as impressed with Amy Acker as everyone in the world is. As a standalone episode I think it works fine.

As for Ruby, she was my favourite characterand I miss her deeply but I'm kind of glad she escaped the madness this show has become. My personal head canon is that she refused to drink the Koolaid that everyone else did and is just avoiding people, hanine out at the inn.

[HoodlumSheep]

I'm rather fond of the backstory for Grumpy. I miss Snow/Red and Snow/Grumpy (you still see him on occassion, but it seemed like he and she used to interact more).

Sometimes I wish I could headcanon that Ruby was left behind in the EF after Zelena's hijacked curse, but that would be kinda cruel to Granny and the 3b finale disproves it too. If she was in the EF they could always have her reappear along with Mulan at some point. it'd almost be better than never getting to see her at Granny's anymore.

Either that, or she's on permanent babysitting duty.

I'm almost to the end of my season 1 rewatch choices. I've got Hat Trick, An Apple Red as Blood, and A Land Without Magic left. I'll probably watch Hat Trick tonight and save the last two eps for Sunday, then I can start on my season 2 choices at some point.

Edited August 15, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Writing Wrongs]

I'm finishing my 3B re-watch and I really hate Bleeding Through. From Regina and Snow's buddy-buddy "I forgive you for killing my mother, since she killed your mother and I'm glad you've forgotten I killed your father" crap to that nonsensical Cora backstory.

 

Why on earth would Leopold marry Cora's daughter when he dumped Cora for lying and trying to trick him? And if Ava was already engaged to Leopold why was she at Henry Sr.'s party for prospective wives?  None of it makes sense and I get annoyed watching it.

[Camera One]

That episode was just heavy-handed as hell.  The writers' biases could be better described as gushing through than bleeding through with what they tried to do in this episode.  It's like the show was trying to tell us what we *should* be thinking of the characters and of moral equivalencies, and I didn't appreciate that.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Camera One

[Camera One]

I was just imagining an alternate ending to "Darkness On The Edge of Town" where everyone acted like normal people with brains.

 

SNOWING: I think it's a bad idea to let Cruella and Ursula in.  How can we trust them?

EMMA: You're right.  Let's throw them some money as reward for the information. Why do they want to live here anyway?  It's not like they have friends here.

REGINA: Okay, let's all head back into town then.

BLUE: Hi everyone.  Do you guys want me to release that Old Man trapped in the Hat or not?  Or do you still want me to wait until the dawn of the next apocalypse?

 

*Releases Apprentice from Hat*

 

REGINA: We want to find the Author to give me a happy ending.

APPRENTICE: Bad idea.  I trapped the Author for a reason. Forget about it.

 

-- 4B ends prematurely --

Edited August 15, 2015 by Camera One

[MostlyC]

A gentle reminder:

 

Please take note of the pinned post written by the rest of the lovely Once Upon a Time Mods.  I shall quote a bit:

Please use it (this thread) for comparing the various realms that the show has already been and wherever it goes in the future (for example, Storybrooke/The Enchanted Forest/Neverland/Oz).

 

This includes chat about a single episode.  If you wish to chat about a single episode, you can easily find the episode thread.

Please, let us stay on topic.

 

[Rumsy4]

Periscope of the D23 panel if you want to watch. ... Lana & Eddy throw Jen under the bus by saying that Emma sacrificed herself for Regina.

 

At this point, we're going to have to accept that this was the writers' intention. 

[YaddaYadda]

My friend and I did a rewatch of Snow Drifts/There's no place like home and we got to the part where Hook is a bit pissy that Emma saved Marian's life and he goes on his mini-rant about how what if she gets drunk and kills one of the dwarves and there's just 6 of them?

 

And then he says what if she has a child someday who turns into a mass murderer?  

 

Hook can be a complete diva, but people shouldn't dismiss his rantings too quickly.  

 

I could a give a fig about Zelena, but that baby doesn't stand a chance.

[Rumsy4]

And then he says what if she has a child someday who turns into a mass murderer?  

 

Hook can be a complete diva, but people shouldn't dismiss his rantings too quickly.  

 

I could a give a fig about Zelena, but that baby doesn't stand a chance.

 

Ugh... you're probably right. I seriously can't see Regina sitting around parenting her sister's brat. As it is, her son acts as the parent in their relationship. 

[Mari]

 I seriously can't see Regina sitting around parenting her sister's brat. 

I can see her doing as much parenting of Baby Green as she did of Henry--she's been interested and obsessed with children for years, and it didn't seem to matter to her that the children weren't hers biologically.

 

I think it would depend on whether Regina has more pleasure smirking and gloating at Zelena about raising the baby or if that pleasure is outweighed by Regina's personal pain over Robin and Zelena having sex and creating a baby.   

[Rumsy4]

I think it would depend on whether Regina has more pleasure smirking and gloating at Zelena about raising the baby or if that pleasure is outweighed by Regina's personal pain over Robin and Zelena having sex and creating a baby.   

 

It makes for a sad scenario in either case. All her life, Zelena has coveted what Regina had. And yet, time and again, Regina has won. Even now, Regina will get to parent Zelena's child. So, that's another thing Regina's "taken away" from Zelena. Zelena is too mentally unstable to raise a child, of course. But Regina is not exactly normal either. Really, this whole storyline is a mess.

[YaddaYadda]

Even now, Regina will get to parent Zelena's child.

 

The Merry Men will be raising Zelena and Robin's baby.  They seem to be doing a good job with Roland.

 

I guess I sort of started wondering about the whole "Evil isn't made, it's born" when thinking about Hook's comment and what happened with Lily and Emma.  I mean this baby has to be more than "oh look, life just kicked Regina in the teeth again."

[Rumsy4]

Maybe Zelena will have a boy and call him Damien. Season 6 of Once Upon a Time will be "The Omen: Return to Storybrooke".

Edited August 16, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Mari]

Maybe Zelena will have a boy and call him Damien. Season 6 of Once Upon a Time will be "The Omen:Return to Storybrooke".

Well, Emma's Dark One evil has to go somewhere, and Snow and David already know how to do an evilectomy.    Damien's evil could be born and made.

[Shanna Marie]

Continuing my fast-forward rewatch, something I found interesting was that Greg brought up the "villains don't get happy endings" concept. In 3A, Regina brought that up to Hook on the journey to Neverland, mentioning that Greg said it and asking if Hook thought it was true, to which Hook replied that if it was, they'd wasted their lives. So the entire premise of season 4 was built around something that a guy with an axe to grind against magic told Regina when he was torturing her for murdering his father. I could totally buy that Regina might grasp at that straw to explain why things didn't go the way she wanted. I just can't buy that everyone else took it at all seriously.

 

David was awfully annoying in 3A. When they'd landed in Neverland, he objected to including Regina and Hook because they needed to carry out the rescue mission of Henry "the right way." I'm not sure what "right way" there is to rescue someone, other than successfully, and leaving out the magic user who has some control and actually knows what she's doing and the guy who knows the place where they are and the person they're up against is probably not going to result in success. Plus, if he had moral or ethical issues with having Hook along, the time to raise them would have been before Hook used his ship to get them there. I can get not entirely trusting Hook at that point in the story, but it was rather tacky for David to act like Hook's presence would sully their mission after he put himself and his ship on the line. And then David would make a point of going against Hook's recommendations, just because he made them. But I can see where the bromance thing got started in fandom because that's so often the way romances are built in stories like this -- they start with one person sneering at the other being a rogue or a thief, and then the other will do something heroic that changes the person's mind. Except in David's case, it didn't stick. I hope that if saving his life and sticking with Emma through the time portal, and going into the Evil Queen's dungeons to save Emma, and giving up his ship to bring Emma to her family wasn't enough, that the guilt about killing him in the AU will do the trick so he'll get off his high horse.

 

Henry really was the Truest Stupid in that arc, considering that he ended up trusting Pan over his parents when he was brought to Neverland through Pan deceiving Greg and Tamara and Pan was lying to and playing Henry when they met.

 

I am finding that I'm fast forwarding through the flashbacks in this arc. Most of the time, they lend very little to the story and don't give us new information about the characters. Hey, did you know that Regina hated Snow? And did awful things out of that hatred?

[Camera One]

The only aspect of David I found annoying was keeping the secret from Snow and Emma.  I didn't mind how he acted towards Hook at all.  Season 2 had just happened and everything Hook did was still fresh in his mind, especially his turncoat ways.  No way I'd want anyone like that anywhere near my daughter if I were him.  I like that Hook still hasn't completely gained his trust yet.  It means Hook keeps on working.  No woobification like with Regina.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

I don't really have a problem with David not trusting Hook in early season 3, and I even get him not being crazy about his daughter getting involved with him (though I do have qualms about him trying to dictate his adult daughter's social life). It was mostly just his "we need to do this the right way" speech on the beach in Neverland that got me. I guess Regina hadn't contributed a lot to that point, but Henry was her kid, too. However, Hook was the closest thing they had to a native guide and had already brought them there on his ship. It's just silly to take some principled stand on not involving him at that point. And then he got pissy later about wanting to do exactly the opposite of what Hook recommended afterward. Yes, walk right into the poisonous, thorny vines just because you can't bear the idea of doing what the pirate says. I love David, but there are times I want to give him a good shake.

[tennisgurl]

Looking back on the Neverland arc, I feel like I liked it a lot more than it deserved. I HATED the Greg and Tamara arc, so at that point, basically anything different was better. 

 

Things like the constant walking, some more woobie Regina stuff, the continuation of the "its a small multiverse after all" theme, Henry being annoying, David and his inexplicable secret, and generally making Neverland, a magic land of imagination, into a bunch of potted plants. 

 

However, there is enough good here to make it a good arc, in my opinion. I just feel that, at the time, I was more forgiving of its flaws, because it was just so much better than what it followed, plus the good stuff (lost girl, Hook backstory, Tink, some nice Snowing stuff, Peter Pan himself) tended to make me forget about the bad. 

Edited August 19, 2015 by tennisgurl

[KingOfHearts]

 

And then he got pissy later about wanting to do exactly the opposite of what Hook recommended afterward. Yes, walk right into the poisonous, thorny vines just because you can't bear the idea of doing what the pirate says.

Oh, I remember that now. That was very dumb. David had absolutely no idea where he was going or what dangers were lurking in the dark, yet he'd like to go the direct opposite way of the guide out of pride. I understand they wanted driving bro angst for Hook's centric where he saves David's life, but that was just immature.

 

Also, a lot of people find David's protection over Emma, even into S4, funny. I don't. It's creepy and wedged in for humor.

[Camera One]

They were trying to play up the differences between everyone's approach.  It's probably going to be the same thing in the quest to save Emma.  It's easy to make Snow or Charming's approach be naive, idiotic, dumb, and hard-headed.

 

I don't think David's protection over Emma is creepy at all.  Older brothers and fathers sometimes feel that kind of prejudice even though it's irrational.  He's not actively trying to break them up or anything.  

[YaddaYadda]

Also, a lot of people find David's protection over Emma, even into S4, funny. I don't. It's creepy and wedged in for humor.

 

I don't know about funny, but I thought it made sense for him to be protective of her or to wanna protect her because he's never had the chance to do that.  I didn't find it creepy either.  But it was inconsistent in the writing especially when he was trying to "protect" her from Hook.  At the start, when Hook joined the Nevengers, it was fine, because Hook came to town with Cora and he was a loose cannon and he stole the last magic bean and yeah, you couldn't trust the guy.  It took him saving David's life for David to start coming around.  

 

Meanwhile, he wasn't as protective of Emma when it came to Neal, which problem...and WTF!  David and Snow both dropped the ball on that one.  Snow has dropped several balls when it comes to Emma.

[HoodlumSheep]

Looking back on the Neverland arc, I feel like I liked it a lot more than it deserved. I HATED the Greg and Tamara arc, so at that point, basically anything different was better.

Things like the constant walking, some more woobie Regina stuff, the continuation of the "its a small multiverse after all" theme, Henry being annoying, David and his inexplicable secret, and generally making Neverland, a magic land of imagination, into a binch of potted plants.

However, there is enough good here to make it a good arc, in my opinion. I just feel that, at the time, I was more forgiving of its flaws, because it was just so much better than what it followed, plus the good stuff (lost girl, Hook backstory, Tink, some nice Snowing stuff, Peter Pan himself) tended to make me forget about the bad.

Neverland was not without it's own faults, but I still think it was far less annoying than 3b's stuff. Regina was still not considered a hero, so her rudeness towards everyone fit better than it does currently now that she's a "hero." She was more tolerable. They managed to course-correct by offing Greg and Tamara (although Neal should have found out about Rumple killing her).

I thought the pacing overall was much better (even if it was slightly on the slower side, it still flowed better). 3b jumped around in it's pacing too much.

Not seeing more of the setting (or at least a better variety) was one of it's biggest points against it in my opinion. They could have added more magical/imaginative elements while still keeping them creepy. So, I guess "oddly beautiful/mystical wonder" is what I'd be looking for. why couldn't we see the plains? You don't necessarily have to add Tiger Lily and co., but I think adding a bit more variety in the scenery would have helped. I still wish we would have gotten to see Mermaid Lagoon, but I suppose 3x01 and Ariel covered that. I wish we would have seen more of Skull Rock too.

I also wish they would have had more moments where characters took "leaps of faith." I liked that speech by Rumple, so it sort of made me sad we didn't get to see Emma or any of the other characters take a big risk or take a "leap of faith" and embrace the imagination of Neverland.

now I sound like I'm nitpicking 3a like crazy, but it's still my second favorite arc after season 1.

[KAOS Agent]

 

I don't know about funny, but I thought it made sense for him to be protective of her or to wanna protect her because he's never had the chance to do that.  I didn't find it creepy either.  But it was inconsistent in the writing especially when he was trying to "protect" her from Hook.

 

I didn't mind the protectiveness until David stepped over the line and told Hook that he was never going to have Emma. That's not a decision you get to make, David. It's him making another choice for Emma. If his attitude had continued in that manner, he could also hurt Emma. She'd have been left stuck feeling a pull towards Hook while not wanting to disappoint her father and it could hurt their relationship.

 

I think David's attitude towards Hook in Neverland might have played better if I felt like it came from a place of jealousy. Emma was naturally gravitating towards Hook. They understood each other and had a friendship going. Yes, there were undertones of sexual attraction, but mostly Emma was focused on her kid, so the fact that Emma was choosing to hang out with the pirate and developing a nice friendship with him seeking out his company and advice while David was still struggling to develop a bond with Emma would have made it more understandable to me. Less petty and strange, especially considering David's lack of reaction to Neal.

 

Instead, we got lots of walking around in circles with David and Regina acting like two year olds who aren't getting their way and throwing mini-tantrums that could lead to danger for everyone - using magic on the map, wandering into dreamshade, ditching the group when they rescue Neal. I liked the Neverland arc, but when I look back on it, I want to strangle some of the characters. Hello, there's a little boy in the hands of a magical psycho, stop being part of the problem with your petty issues and get your ass in gear to help save him.

Edited August 19, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Rumsy4]

I've noticed many times that the writers focus more on what works per episode rather than look at the bigger picture. That's why we have so many retcons and inconsistencies in plot and characterization. They made David all the more of an ass to Hook in Good Form so the the turn-around at the end of the episode would be more dramatic. All the characters were high-strung in Neverland. So, it's not really all that unnatural for David to lash out at Hook unfairly, It's the more recent knocks on Hook that I find more irritating. Like when David thought Ursula might have recruited Hook to the Dark side.

 

Out of story, David had a problem with Hook, but not with Neal, because the writers had little interest in Neal as a character, and were gearing up for Captain Swan. But in-story, David and Snow do come across as strange people for their easy acceptance of the man who knocked their daughter up when she was a teenager and abandoned her in jail.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Rumsy4

[YaddaYadda]

They made David all the more of an ass to Hook in Good Form so the the turn-around at the end of the episode would be more dramatic.

 

It wasn't just David in Good Form. Mary Margaret was giving Hook some not so nice looks when she noticed Emma and he looking at each other.  Then he saved David's life and she's drinking to his good health.  The characters on this show are bipolar (no offense to anyone).

[babyPhat279]

I think they overdid it at times with David giving Hook a hard time, but I think I can understand them giving Neal a pass. At the end of the day, whether it's what's best or not, he's Henry's father. I think most kids would want their parents together, and David and Mary Margaret would want that for their grandchild. And as much as he was a jerk for leaving her, he didn't know she was pregnant so at least the part about abandoning a pregnant woman is not really fair.

 

With all that said I still didn't really like his character, but I could understand people trying to push Emma in that direction. 

[Panopticon]

It's just silly to take some principled stand on not involving him at that point. And then he got pissy later about wanting to do exactly the opposite of what Hook recommended afterward. Yes, walk right into the poisonous, thorny vines just because you can't bear the idea of doing what the pirate says. I love David, but there are times I want to give him a good shake.

...And this proves that these writers CAN write a decent, good, brave hero who nonetheless has personality flaws. They didn't have to resort to retconned eggnappings.

It's one more reason I thought the Neverland arc was one of the show's best.