A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[YaddaYadda]

Killing off Emma, Hook would probably be the last straw for me.  I actually deleted yesterday's episode without rewatching it and I always make a point of rewatching.  I rewatched 405 and I thought it was pretty bad.  But hey, it's the same writer who also wrote yesterday.  Maybe I'll do myself a favor and skip his episodes from now on.

[buildmeupbuttercup]

Killing off Emma, Hook would probably be the last straw for me.  I actually deleted yesterday's episode without rewatching it and I always make a point of rewatching.  I rewatched 405 and I thought it was pretty bad.  But hey, it's the same writer who also wrote yesterday.  Maybe I'll do myself a favor and skip his episodes from now on.

Ditto. I usually save the episodes for a week so that even if I don't do a rewatch I can refer back to particular scenes when people mention them on the boards, but this one was an instant delete. I had been in denial for a while but this episode sealed it--I now only watch this show for mainly Emma and also Hook. At this point, if they were both gone (preferably on their own CS spinoff show with different writers!) I don't even think Snowing would keep me watching--and they were one of the bigger reasons I watched in season 1. Sad that it has come to this...

[jhlipton]

This was it for me.  I haven't deleted it from my DVR (yet), but I'll check in here and with the recap before deciding whether to watch.

[HoodlumSheep]

I'm still behind. 2.5 episodes now (I got to watch part of 4x16). I still plan on catching up eventually, but I don't know when that'll be. I just can't get into it. I may just wait for the rest of the season to end, and then watch it when they eventually add season 4 to netflix. The only problem with that, is my brother keeps saying he's going to get rid of netflix (we use his account) and switch over to the hbo equivalent or whatever (he watches more of those shows).

So who knows if I'll ever catch up. It makes me actually feel a bit sad.

[Camera One]

There are zero reasons character-wise to do this "twist" of Marion being Zelena all along.  So Regina finally tried to do good, to help someone (Marion with the frozen heart), and we find out she was actually reviving her evil murderer sister?  How does this help Regina's character arc?  It is basically to set up a whole new round of contrived obstacles.  They made it crystal clear that Marion was dead, because they were now bored of writing a wife standing between Robin and Regina.  It is lazy writing, pure and simple.  Ditto for the Snowing secret.  None of this crap has any actual potential for character growth or development.  None of it is organic.  

 

How many villains are we up to now in 4B?  There were the Three Queens of Darkness, but no!  The grand pooba is actually Rumple.  Wait... actually the grand mastermind is Zelena!  And then there's the Rogue Author on top of that.  I can't see the endpoint or the destination of this season at all.  Every episode, they throw a new pile of manure on top of it all.  

Edited April 14, 2015 by Camera One

[HoodlumSheep]

This is a bit random, but a commercial for Once popped up during dwts (they always advertise during dwts), and my mom, older brother, and his girlfriend all started shouting for me to come see it. My brother kept yelling, "It's Cruella!" Over and over again. He also shouted, "She looks so Evil!!!!'".

He's 27. He tends to like the evil characters.

So, I guess I should say a job well done to A&E on Cruella.

And a bit of background info:

My brother and his girlfriend started watching Once on netflix, mainly because he liked the Evil Queen (and I stress the "Evil Queen" part), they watched the first two seasons, and I'm not sure if they made it through the third (I don't think they did). He refused to watch the Frozen arc though and doesn't watch it anymore (too much Frozen everywhere, etc.)

So, yeah. I just found it amusing.

[Camera One]

The latest clarifications with Adam on Twitter is so enlightening.

https://twitter.com/AdamHorowitzLA/status/587802464612560896

 

hjboyer ‏@hjboyer  Mar 29
@AdamHorowitzLA So the characters have no control & therefore responsibility for their choices? The book made them do it? That's ridiculous.

 

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA  1h1 hour ago
@hjboyer that's not what we said is happening

 

hjboyer ‏@hjboyer  59m59 minutes ago
@AdamHorowitzLA Really? It seemed like that apprentice guy had no control over lying to Snow/Charming about Mal's egg? Was that not true?

 

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA  47m47 minutes ago
@hjboyer it's more complicated than that.  Rewatch if you're inclined.  And see what's coming.  Thanks for watching!

 

hjboyer ‏@hjboyer  36m36 minutes ago
@AdamHorowitzLA do harm to Emma, but the author wrote in the book & he had no choice, no agency, and therefore no fault in his actions. (co2

Adam HorowitzVerified account
‏@AdamHorowitzLA
@hjboyer for that one specific action.  Yes.  But it's more complicated than that.  We didn't say author controlled ALL actions.  Not at all

 

---------

 

So the Author doesn't control ALL actions.  Only whatever is convenient for the plot.  Alrighty then...

 

I can totally see them in the Writers' Room saying that viewers are stupid, since we can't understand such a complex plot.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Camera One

[Dani-Ellie]

In this instance, Adam has a point. August's exact line:

 

"Many have had this sacred job, great women and men who took on the responsibility with the gravity that it deserved, until this last one. He started to manipulate rather than record. He did something, I don’t know exactly what, but something that pushed them over the edge."

 

Not once in that bit of exposition did the show say that all the characters' actions were not their own. They talked about this one instance with the Apprentice but they did not talk about anything beyond that at all.

 

Yes, it's open-ended as of right now what exactly the Author manipulated, whether it was that one instance or whether he had his fingers in things awhile before he was caught, but the story is also not over yet. Adam was shutting down the poster's original point that "the characters have no control & therefore responsibility for their choices? The book made them do it?" because that's not what the show said.

[Camera One]

Yes, the original poster's first claim was incorrect.  To me, the problem is *what* an Author can supposedly control and *when* he can or can't override free will is just completely arbitrary.  You can't enjoy a game if they are constantly changing the rules.  

[Crimson Belle]

Translation of Adam: The Author only manipulates Regina's actions. She's an innocent babe not responsible for anything bad she ever did. Everybody else that ever did so much as fart at the wrong time is the evilest evil that ever eviled.

[KAOS Agent]

The problem is that once they showed that the author had the ability to force someone to do something, they opened the question of what he did and how often and how many others may have done the same. No one would ever know. And with this show, they'll pull out the old "the Author did it" whenever they want to whitewash a character's choices. The ability to remove free will from an extreme distance all with the stroke of a pen takes away from everything this show has always said about choices and defining yourself. That the manipulation also occurred during a spell where Emma & Lily's free will/agency was also messed with makes it even worse.

Edited April 14, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Mathius]

The grand pooba is actually Rumple. Wait... actually the grand mastermind is Zelena!

Not exactly, Rumple's still the mastermind since he was already planning on seeking the Author before he was hospitalized. Zelena just forced him to include her in on the plan and the prize it's working toward. But yeah, her inclusion into this arc is totally unnecessary.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Mathius

[Camera One]

It's probably necessary to the plot in the writers' perspective to give Rumple some grey-area, since now he is being coerced by Zelena.  He *has* to follow through, or he won't get the Elixir.  It sets up for yet another redemption arc in the future.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

It's probably necessary to the plot in the writers' perspective to give Rumple some grey-area, since now he is being coerced by Zelena.  He *has* to follow through, or he won't get the Elixir.  It sets up for yet another redemption arc in the future.

Sadly, Zelena already gave him the Elixir.. which means Rumple has absolutely no reason to hold up his end of the bargain. Once he doesn't need Regina any more, he can do whatever he wants with the Author.

Edited April 14, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

That confused me.  So why did Zelena act like she had the upper hand?  So Rumple isn't obligated to make the Author give Zelena a happy ending as well?  Why did Zelena stop from killing Rumple?  Is her revenge on him not as important as her revenge on Regina?  Why didn't Zelena "take him to her bedchamber", as they're apt to do on this show, since she has always had that little crush on him.

[Mathius]

Sadly, Zelena already gave him the Elixir.

No she didn't, otherwise why was he still having heart problems in "Best Laid Plans"? She may have given him just enough to recover, but not enough to fully cure him.

[KingOfHearts]

No she didn't, otherwise why was he still having heart problems in "Best Laid Plans"? She may have given him just enough to recover, but not enough to fully cure him.

Her elixir can only help him for so long. He needs the Author to cure him completely.

[KAOS Agent]

Doesn't it seem a little ridiculous that a dark heart will kill the immortal Dark One after he does enough evil? Why would the very purpose of the Dark One's curse be responsible for his death? Whoever planned that out when creating the original Dark One missed something important. It's just more idiocy by the writers to create a more sympathetic and redeemable Rumpel.

[Camera One]

Basically, Rumple has done so much evil he should have had a heart attack in "Manhattan" and died, if this dumb new heart ailment was actually at work all along.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Camera One

[FurryFury]

He's 27. He tends to like the evil characters.

 

Hey, don't throw shade on us 20-somethings! We're not ALL that shallow.

 

It's probably necessary to the plot in the writers' perspective to give Rumple some grey-area, since now he is being coerced by Zelena.  He *has* to follow through, or he won't get the Elixir.  It sets up for yet another redemption arc in the future.

 

At this point it shouldn't be possible to redeem Rumple. His actions in 4A were just too much. He tried to kill Emma and Hook and was totally all right with Storybooke being destroyed by Ingrid. He imprisoned the fairies. All to get more power. How many chances should he get? I mean, Regina also did some nasty stuff during the show, but it was all in the first season (plus her backsliding in 2B, but even then, it wasn't quite as deep as Rumple's).

[Dani-Ellie]

To me, the problem is *what* an Author can supposedly control and *when* he can or can't override free will is just completely arbitrary.  You can't enjoy a game if they are constantly changing the rules.

 

But they haven't laid out any rules yet for this particular plotline. We know there were a whole bunch of Authors and we know this one guy went rogue. August stated that every other Author since time began did his or her job to the letter and simply recorded events. As Adam said, the story is still ongoing. If this were three seasons from now and all of a sudden, oh oops, the Author changed something else we were led to believe he didn't, then okay. But to me, the rules aren't arbitrary yet simply because we don't have all the information yet. It's like saying a certain character in a murder mystery book can't possibly be the killer when you're only halfway through it and there are plot points still coming down the pipeline.

[HoodlumSheep]

Hey, don't throw shade on us 20-somethings! We're not ALL that shallow..

Haha, wasn't trying to shade, I'm in my (very early) 20s too! And I know I'll be strolling along with my Mickey/Minnie rainbow/cupcake suitcase when I'm 90. Just trying to make a point that A&E at least did something right, if it got my brother excited.

Cruella's awesome. It makes me sad that Ursula turned out so bland (and has already left the show). But then again she's actually Ursula 2.0, so maybe we'll eventually see the real goddess Ursula. i suppose there's still hope for Mal but we'll see.

[Mathius]

(plus her backsliding in 2B, but even then, it wasn't quite as deep as Rumple's).

I dunno, her backsliding in 2B was pretty heinous, and arguably worse that her Season 1 villainy (the extremity of which I find is overexaggerated by many, except for the Graham thing of course.) However, she was also completely delusionally cray cray at that point, whereas Rumple in 4A, no matter what bullshit PTSD excuse is given, was clearly in full possession of his senses and moral awareness, yet he chose to do horrible things anyway.

Though technically, Regina's issues with it being unbelievable that she could be redeemed has much more to do with what she did in the past as the Evil Queen than anything she did presently in Storybrooke.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

 

We didn't know Marian well enough to know whether or not she was "off" during that whole time.

I could imagine Christie Lang pulling off a wonderful "off" Marian. I've enjoyed her acting all the way up to 4x17. Besides making the Zelena twist more believable, it would have given Robin a better reason for having stronger feelings for Regina and not rekindling the love for his dead wife. It wouldn't excuse his behavior in the slightest, but his actions would have been more human and less overly douchey. If he didn't understand why he couldn't find the spark with Marian any more, then Zarian would be a contributing factor. Instead we got Marian the Awesome Understanding Wife, who makes Robin look like even more of a jerk for rejecting.

[Shanna Marie]

I could imagine Christie Lang pulling off a wonderful "off" Marian. I've enjoyed her acting all the way up to 4x17. Besides making the Zelena twist more believable, it would have given Robin a better reason for having stronger feelings for Regina and not rekindling the love for his dead wife.

Yeah, she's been so 100 percent into the role, and the little bits we saw in the latest episode of "off" Marian were good, too. We barely knew Marian, so it wouldn't have greatly ruined the surprise if Marian hadn't been the picture of calm and grace that we saw. She could have done just about anything short of turning green without us saying, "Hey, maybe she's Zelena in disguise!" Marian also had plenty of reasons to be off even if she had been real. She'd been taken prisoner by the Evil Queen, trotted around as an example for terrorizing people, thrown in the dungeon with her execution scheduled, rescued by a mysterious princess, then told by the princess and her prince that she could never go back to her family, got bonked on the head, woke up in a strange world more than 30 years later to find that the "prince" was actually a notorious pirate who was briefing her on everything that happened, then learned that the Evil Queen was also in this world, was friends with all these people, and was dating her husband. That's a lot of leeway for screeching, crazy eyes, panic attacks, and other behaviors we might also associate with Zelena without even the people closest to her thinking that something was wrong.

 

And there are other Zelena mannerisms that could have been worked in subtly, like her tendency to get too close to people when talking and her hatred of Regina.

 

I can't believe that if they'd planned this ahead of time they'd have let Marian be this zen-like paragon of calm, level-headed understanding. Yes, it made for a bigger surprise because nothing was signaled at all, but that also meant that when you look back at the earlier episodes, instead of going "Oooooh, I see it now," we're going "no freakin' way. I don't believe it."

 

I'm also angry on Marian's behalf because that's a crappy way to treat a character who is more awesome the more we see of her. I would have loved to have her on the show for real. She seems like she would have made a good friend match for Emma and could have taught Belle a thing or two about not being a doormat and making things be on her terms, even if they weren't the outcome she wanted. And she was killed off retroactively, essentially off-screen (though we did end up seeing it in flashbacks) just to clear the way for Regina to (yet again) get what she wanted (which rather undermines further the thesis that Regina isn't allowed to win because she's a villain). I was trying to compare this to Neal, to see if the difference was just that I like the relationship that his death cleared the way for, but I think it's a very different thing. Neal was allowed to be a character in his own right whose role in the story went far beyond his relationship with Emma, given that he was the one who set it all off when he jumped through the portal as a kid. It didn't seem like there was actually much chance of Emma getting back together with him, whether or not Hook was around, so he didn't need to die for that relationship to happen. And Hook had absolutely nothing to do with his death. Neal got himself into trouble of his own accord for another reason and died in a way that got him called a hero. Plus, Neal and Emma weren't a canon storybook couple being broken up. So it feels a lot less like he was sacrificed on the altar of Captain Swan. Marian was scheduled for execution by Regina (and was executed in the other timeline) and retroactively murdered as part of a revenge scheme against Regina, and it was all done really just to clear the way for Robin and Regina to be together and remove the adultery from the picture.

[Curio]

I could imagine Christie Lang pulling off a wonderful "off" Marian. [...] Instead we got Marian the Awesome Understanding Wife, who makes Robin look like even more of a jerk for rejecting.

 

This is what makes me so angry about how the writers portrayed Marian in 4A. They had the perfect opportunity for Marian to be a total bitch to Regina because of the prison/execution plot from the past, and they completely swept that all under the rug. As an audience member, we wouldn't have been side-eyeing Marian at all because we'd be thinking, "Hell, yeah! Finally someone gets to yell at Regina for something terrible she did to them! And Marian is totally justified with yelling at her! I'd yell at my potential murderer, too!" And then once we found out about the Zelena reveal, we could have gone back and said, "Oh, so that's why Marian was being really bitchy towards Regina. Not only was it a good ruse to pretend to be pissed off on Marian's behalf, but Zelena is rubbing it in Regina's face on purpose. Awesome!"

 

Instead, they made Marian appear like this saintly, perfect, understanding wife who's totally cool with Robin banging Regina because she can see how "he looks at her." Complete sincerity during that line delivery. How am I supposed to find any fishy clues from that kind of acting? I can't. If Adam & Eddy knew this twist all along, why didn't they play with it more during 4A? Why did they put Marian on ice for so long? Why not have "Marian" make passive-aggressive comments towards Robin like, "Well, I'm glad you came to your senses and broke things off with Regina. It probably would have only been a matter of time before she put you in a jail cell like she did with me."

 

The fact that the show never showed the conversation where Robin learns about Regina torturing Marian and putting her in the jail cell is even more egregious of an error in hindsight. "Marian" playing that up could have really messed with Robin's head. Zelena could really lay it on thick and make him question his judgement. "Oh, how well do you even know Regina? Apparently not enough to know that she captured your wife and threw her in jail." Like, how did the writers not want to tap into that golden opportunity?

Edited April 14, 2015 by Curio

[queenbee]

I also agree with the posters above about Zelena/Marian. I feel that the writing on Once is all about the "shock twist". Zelena-as-Marian was out of character for Zelena, but the writers wanted their shocking twist to be the most.shocking.EVAH. So much missed opportunity. I do feel as though this plot point, like most plot points, is serving to prop up Regina and whitewash her prior actions. See, Regina DIDN'T kill Marian, her wicked sister did! See, Regina didn't really commit adultery (but Mary-Margaret did).  

[YaddaYadda]

See, Regina DIDN'T kill Marian, her wicked sister did! See, Regina didn't really commit adultery (but Mary-Margaret did).

 

I kind of disagree.  If Emma hadn't saved Marian from Regina's dungeon, then Marian would have had her head lopped off by Regina's executioner or whomever.  And both Regina and Robin committed adultery even if that wasn't the real Marian who was frozen.  They did not know that.  For them the person who was frozen was Marian and that's where it started and ended for the both of them.

 

If this is what the writers were aiming at, they failed, miserably.  Robin is still a cheating ass, Regina is still the mistress and Regina nearly killed Marian had it not been for Emma intervening.  

 

And Robin better not get angry or pissy or all sad that Marian was killed by Zelena when he didn't blink an eye at what Regina nearly did to her.

[Shanna Marie]

If Adam & Eddy knew this twist all along, why didn't they play with it more during 4A? Why did they put Marian on ice for so long? Why not have "Marian" make passive-aggressive comments towards Robin like, "Well, I'm glad you came to your senses and broke things off with Regina. It probably would have only been a matter of time before she put you in a jail cell like she did with me."

That kind of writing/acting would have had multiple benefits. They could still have deflected any "this isn't really Marian" suspicion by reminding everyone of her reasons for PTSD. "Marian, this isn't like you!" "Well, maybe it's like the me who survived Regina's dungeon, only to find my husband sleeping with her." It would have made for an "Oh, now I see it, yes, that could have been Zelena" reaction when they revealed the twist. And it would actually have made the relationship between Robin and Regina more palatable if instead of cheating on his saintly, understanding wife he was cheating on someone he barely recognized anymore (though he still would have lost points for cheating with the person seemingly responsible for turning her into a person he barely recognized).

 

If they really did plan this (ha!) then it was very badly executed. I don't know why they chose to do it in the worst possible way. It was already bizarre that they made Regina be responsible and then never brought that up. If it wasn't going to matter, why couldn't Emma and Hook have rescued Marian from Rumple? If they wanted us to cheer for Robin and Regina to get together, then why did they make Marian awesome and not even the degree of bitchiness that would have been totally understandable under those circumstances?

 

It would have been really fun if Zarian had played up the victim of Regina's evil angle and had done something like campaign for Mayor when Regina abdicated her position while being sad over Robin. Then she'd have been taking away Regina's power, but it still would have seemed like something a freedom fighter like Marian would do. If she'd just escaped the Evil Queen's dungeon, she wouldn't have understood why these people were willingly living under her rule.

[queenbee]

No, YaddaYadda, I agree with you that Zelena being Marian does not absolve Regina (or Robin) of blame. But I am afraid that this is the angle the show will be pushing. 

[stealinghome]

Yeah, to me the Zelena-is-Marian reveal actually explains a lot about how Outlaw Queen was written in 4A especially (and I actually do tend to think that they had this planned from the moment they brought Marian back in S3--we all hoped against hope, but there was just no way they were ever going to bring in anyone to even remotely compete with Saint Regina). We've remarked multiple times on this board that the writers on this show write to the eventual plot outcome without stopping to consider what the characters know (and don't know), and how they should react, at any given moment along the way, and that's a flaw that has become increasingly obvious as the seasons have gone on. So for me, this is TOTALLY a case of the writers being like "well, at the end of the day it's not really Marian, so however Robin and Regina act or treat "Marian," it doesn't matter because it's not Marian!"

 

What they miss, of course, is that that's just not how it works, and for a large part of the viewing audience, Robin and Regina (but mostly Robin) looks just as asstastic because it doesn't matter whether or not it was Marian, what matters was that he thought it was. It's like David Nolan/Kathryn/Mary Margaret, ffs! David Nolan wasn't absolved of being an ass to Kathryn and Mary Margaret just because Snow and Charming were married! The logic isn't different here!

 

What I can't figure out is why they're truly so desperate to push Outlaw Queen. Fan reaction to the pairing was uneven to begin with back in S3 and has just gotten increasingly negative, to where (at least it seems to me) only the most devoted Evil Regals still like it. The writers figured out with Greg and Tamara that they should just kill them off because the fans were so unimpressed--why is Robin different? He and Regina don't have much chemistry and they've TOTALLY bungled the storyline at this point. Can't they just write him off and get Regina a new love interest, preferably one with which she has actual, consistent chemistry?

[jhlipton]

I'm still behind. 2.5 episodes now (I got to watch part of 4x16). I still plan on catching up eventually, but I don't know when that'll be. I just can't get into it. I may just wait for the rest of the season to end, and then watch it when they eventually add season 4 to netflix. The only problem with that, is my brother keeps saying he's going to get rid of netflix (we use his account) and switch over to the hbo equivalent or whatever (he watches more of those shows).

So who knows if I'll ever catch up. It makes me actually feel a bit sad.

 

It should be on the ABC website (and Hulu Plus, if you have that) for a while after the finale.

[KingOfHearts]

There was enough substance to speculate Zarian at first, but 4A is what really killed it. A few of us were able to come up with it from Zelena's obviously phony death and the abruptness of Marian's return. And as contrived as it was back then, I had lost faith in it after several episodes went on with no hints whatsoever. I fully expected Marian acting weird or Zelena haunting Regina/Rumple as the subplot of 4A, but I suppose Operation Mongoose was top priority.

 

Zelena could have been the glue to hold the continuity of 3B and 4A together. Instead of confronting the monotony of Big Bads dying at the end of arcs head on, they waited until she wasn't relevant any more. Another example of them waiting too long was Ingrid and Emma's flashback. By then, no one cared about their flashbacks because we were more focused on Rumple's hat and the Shattered Sight curse. Today we just came back from Maleficent and the Author. The Zarian speculation ship had already sailed and it's way too big of a deal to be just a tertiary plot thread. Too much happened in one episode that should have been more spread out.

 

If you haven't guessed it yet, I point my finger at the writers' pacing.

[Curio]

And it would actually have made the relationship between Robin and Regina more palatable if instead of cheating on his saintly, understanding wife he was cheating on someone he barely recognized anymore (though he still would have lost points for cheating with the person seemingly responsible for turning her into a person he barely recognized).

 

Exactly. I think the writers really underestimated how awful they made Robin look throughout 4A. If his wife had been a bitch to Regina, Robin would have come off looking a little better because he'd be stuck trying to be Mr. Nice Guy to these two women he truly cares for but they utterly despise one another. Regina could have gotten a big slice of humble pie with "Marian" reminding her of what she did all the time, and the general audience would have probably rooted for Robin to get together with Regina more if Marian really played up the mean girl angle. Sure, it would have initially come off as the cliché introduce-ex-girlfriend-who's-a-total-bitch trope, but at least it would have made narrative sense when they revealed it was actually Zelena. It's like the damn egg-baby plot all over again -- I can't realistically go back and watch old episodes knowing the information I know now. So even though this technically isn't even a retcon because I honestly believe they planned this from the beginning, it still smells like a retcon because the actress portrayed Marian without any hint of Zelena in her performance in 4A.  

 

What I can't figure out is why they're truly so desperate to push Outlaw Queen. Fan reaction to the pairing was uneven to begin with back in S3 and has just gotten increasingly negative, to where (at least it seems to me) only the most devoted Evil Regals still like it. The writers figured out with Greg and Tamara that they should just kill them off because the fans were so unimpressed--why is Robin different? He and Regina don't have much chemistry and they've TOTALLY bungled the storyline at this point. Can't they just write him off and get Regina a new love interest, preferably one with which she has actual, consistent chemistry?

 

I think the writers are blinded by their love for Regina and they genuinely like Sean Maguire, too. They're probably confused about why the audience doesn't like Robin/Regina because they checked off most of the classic coupling tropes along the way. They made them go on an adventure alone similar to what they forced Hook and Emma to do. They made them do the classic I-don't-like-you-at-first snark during the Missing Year. They've made Robin totally in love with Regina to the point where he doesn't even care to ask about the countless murders she did in the past. They both have young sons. What's not to like? Well, there's a little thing called fairy dust and free will. Television audiences like pairing characters together without being told they're destined to be together. That's just asking for trouble. When a television show starts pushing one couple hard, usually, the general audience ends up liking the other X-Factor guy or girl who shows up who has more chemistry and isn't automatically assumed to be "The One."

[YaddaYadda]

Can't they just write him off and get Regina a new love interest, preferably one with which she has actual, consistent chemistry?

 

But then what happens to fairy dust ordained love or Zelena going on about OQ being true love in 417?  

 

The whole thing was mishandled and not organic at all.  Got to appreciate how much of a tool Robin is as well.  Will has this whole speech to Robin at Granny's where he's implying that he should stick by his wife and Robin goes to Regina.  Rumple basically has a whole speech about going to what makes him happy and Robin goes to Marian even though she's not the one he loves.  I guess the whole not being able to get back to SB puts a damper on things.  OQ makes my head spin.

[OnceUponAJen]

I'm sort of upset that in this whole villains and heroes scenario, they've managed to turn Charming back into cursed David. He has no spine when it comes to Snow. It's sort of ruined both of them for me.

At the same time, Marian having a dark heart could have been made into something interesting:

Regina removes Marian's heart: "Ummm, Robin...is there something in your wife's past that you don't know about. ...?"

Edited April 14, 2015 by OnceUponAJen

[Zuleikha]

and for a large part of the viewing audience, Robin and Regina (but mostly Robin) looks just as asstastic because it doesn't matter whether or not it was Marian, what matters was that he thought it was. It's like David Nolan/Kathryn/Mary Margaret, ffs! David Nolan wasn't absolved of being an ass to Kathryn and Mary Margaret just because Snow and Charming were married!

 

Yes! This exactly. And what's frustrating is that we've all come up with ways the writing could have been tweaked to move all the chess pieces into position without too much trouble. But somewhere along the line, the writers have just forgotten that they need to write stories and not just events.

 

why is Robin different? He and Regina don't have much chemistry and they've TOTALLY bungled the storyline at this point.

I think Robin and Regina do have chemistry most of the time, and both Robin and Outlaw Queen do have fans. My guess is that it's people who got on board with the pairing in 3B and are comfortable not treating Marian like a real character (which to be fair to them, she practically wasn't) and so don't judge Robin's actions. I think the writers won't let go of Robin because they used the stupid pixie dust storyline and are refusing to back down from it. 

 

I wish the show would be less coupled in general. Even with the couples I like, I think they're paired off too much and it's hurting the show. I love Emma/Hook, but Emma's never with Henry anymore because she's always paired with Hook. Snow and Regina crackle on screen together, but Snow and David are always together. Regina basically missed out on all the 4A action because she was sidelined with Robin. 

[buildmeupbuttercup]

I mentioned in the episode thread that even though I'm thrilled that they didn't erase Regina's sins of jailing Marian and scheduling her execution, that was actually the one clue that was left if you wanted to look back and see Zelena was Marian the whole time. Regina didn't remember her and Sidney had to show her, so I was almost positive when I first saw the Zarian spoilers that's how they would rewrite it. However, I just remembered they also (probably unintentionally) left another clue all the way back in 3B that would've fit with this reveal: didn't Robin mention that he was responsible for Marian dying/he put her in danger? Its been awhile since I did a 3B rewatch and I didn't pay much attention to the Outlaw Queen scenes but I know he said something to that effect, right?

 

So again they had a couple clues that could've made this make some semblance of sense--not as much as Zarian dropping the whole saintly wife act in favor of actually antagonizing Regina-- but the way they retconned it in the timeline erases even those accidental clues.

 

I'm not even invested in this storyline as much as I am the Charming's secret debacle and this is still making me furious how badly they have written all of this.

[RadioGirl27]

I love Emma/Hook, but Emma's never with Henry anymore because she's always paired with Hook.

Not really. Emma not spending time with Henry anymore has nothing to do with Hook and everything to do with Henry spending all his time with Regina.

[Mari]

Not really. Emma not spending time with Henry anymore has nothing to do with Hook and everything to do with Henry spending all his time with Regina.

Yup.  When Regina locked herself in her house because Marian was back, Henry went and threw a tantrum outside her door, demanded to be let in, and told her it was his house, too, and he was moving back in; he missed his room.

 

Since then, he's been pretty much obsessed with Operation Mongoose.  Even the scenes he's had with Emma have often centered around Operation Mongoose, as well as his scenes with Rumple.

 

It's not Emma/Hook sidelining a relationship for Emma and Henry.  It's Operation Mongoose and  Regina's happy ending.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Mari

[Zuleikha]

Emma not spending time with Henry anymore has nothing to do with Hook and everything to do with Henry spending all his time with Regina.

I think it's more that Henry spends all his time with Regina because the writers write all of Emma's important moments with Hook, and Snow and Charming's moments are all with each other, so they use Jared to give Regina someone to talk to while Robin's down. If they shook up the pairings, they would have material to write for Emma/Henry. I doubt the writers want us to think that Emma/Henry aren't spending time together--they're just not being creative enough to figure out how to show it to us.

[Curio]

If they shook up the pairings, they would have material to write for Emma/Henry. I doubt the writers want us to think that Emma/Henry aren't spending time together--they're just not being creative enough to figure out how to show it to us.

 

Cough. They could easily be searching for Emma's new apartment since they already set that plot point up during the 3B finale. Cough.

[daxx]

Cough. They could easily be searching for Emma's new apartment since they already set that plot point up during the 3B finale. Cough.

g

Even if they aren't going to make an apt set for Emma that wouldn't preclude apartment shopping. So that would be nice for Emma and Henry to do together.

[Souris]

But, but, but the budget! There's no money for an apartment for Emma! ::hires 127 more regulars::

Edited April 15, 2015 by Souris

[KAOS Agent]

Henry is focused on Operation Mongoose. Emma had plenty of scenes with non-Hook characters in Season 4. In fact, once he lost his heart, there were very few Emma/Hook only scenes in 4A. It's not an Emma/Hook couple bias. Emma had significant screen time with Regina, Elsa, Rumpel, Snowing, etc. Where was Henry during this time? Everyone is about to die (Shattered Sight Spell) - Regina insists Henry stay with her and interrupts Emma's goodbye with him while her goodbye is extended. Hook is about to die, Regina says goodbye to Robin and Henry is running around the mansion only caring about the book. In 4B, Henry stares at the book almost every single episode. That's his story. Meanwhile, Emma has chased after Ursula & Cruella with her father, worked with Regina to get the Chernobog out of town, chased after double agent Regina worrying, worked to save Pinocchio/August, chased after the author and been subject to a sleeping spell. She may share a cute scene or two with Hook each episode, but she's hardly monopolized by him. 

Edited April 15, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

If they wanted to go for honest advertising, the ABC promo monkeys would have said 4B was about the Queens of Inconsequential.

[YaddaYadda]

If they wanted to go for honest advertising, the ABC promo monkeys would have said 4B was about the Queens of Inconsequential.

 

I get what they wanted to do when they dubbed them the Queens of Darkness, but it's so nonsensical and ridiculous.

 

The only one who is remotely dangerous is Maleficent and she's moping over her baby.  Cruella and Ursula?  So very meh!  There is nothing there.  

[Camera One]

She doesn't seem that dangerous either.  She made her threat way back in episode 2 and 4 episodes later, she has taken revenge on Snow and Charming by... doing nothing.  And then begging Rumple to tell her the fate of her baby.  How would Rumple know about Maleficent's baby anyway?   And so far, Rumple hasn't really needed Maleficent for anything that only Maleficent could have done.  Why would he bother to reveal the baby's identity to Maleficent.  Does all this even have a point?   Unless Rumple wants Maleficent to bring Lilly to Storybrooke so all the darkness can pour into Emma.  But let me guess, because of their prior friendship, their reunion turns into sparkling rainbows of love!  Something Rumple could never have predicted and neither could any of us! 

 

We can never guess what's coming next, because there are no rules or boundaries to what Rumple or the Author can do.  It's all undefined.  The only rule which they pretty much made up in "Poor Unfortunate Souls" is that the Author can't give happy endings to the villains because of Emma.  So why not grab the hat and just suck her in?  Gold decided he doesn't want to cleave himself from the Dagger anymore?  

Edited April 15, 2015 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

The only rule which they pretty much made up in "Poor Unfortunate Souls" is that the Author can't give happy endings to the villains because of Emma.

 

Or, I don't know all the villains can just go back to the Enchanted Forest.  There's no savior there.  The writer can give them their happy ending there.  And they have magic, so they can magic themselves pipes and showers and bathrooms and a 7/11.  It's like why are you even staying in SB at all, villains?  I'd think that heroes and villains would just wanna get away from each other.  There are portals, so go ahead, use them.  Go to Arendelle and take a ship to the EF or poof yourselves there.  

 

The villains schemes are always so complicated! 

[Curio]

The villains schemes are always so complicated! 

 

Seriously. They make Yzma look like she has a doctorate from Harvard in Villains Studies.

 

So, question. If this whole time the big bad plan was to turn Emma's heart dark or whatever, why haven't they just tried to kill everyone Emma loves? Isn't that how everyone on this show turns villainous? Someone close to them dies and they snap? Sure, Ursula tried to kill Hook, but that was more for her own revenge. The villains just way over-think this stuff.