A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[tennisgurl]

Totally agree on the Author not being a bad idea in theory, but I seriously question the actual logic behind it. It would have made so much more sense to have Rumple and the villains try to find the Author, for some nefarious purposes, and have the good guys try to stop them. Then we wouldn't know for sure what the deal even WAS with the author, if he was controlling everything, and how, we would just have a simple "stop bad guys" plot, which could later lead into something more interesting. 

 

I have been beating this drum since the freaking pilot, but I really do want to know how this world actually works. How do we know all these stories that are happening in an alternate universe, where the characters are real? Is ALL fiction ever real? Are all creators actually wizards who glimpse alternate realities and write them down, or are they creating them with the power of imagination? Its an interesting idea, but turning it into another stupid Regina Pity Party, and everyone setting out to find the mythical Author, who no one knows anything about, nor do they know what his powers are if he has any power over the things he writes at all! Ack! 

 

I just get a mental picture of angry characters from various shows/movies/books etc. storming into writers rooms everywhere, pulling shot guns, and demanding re-writes. Or maybe just their fans. Lord knows there are a few writers I would REALLY love to have a chat with... 

[Joanh23]

Yeah I'm really nervous about how this Author storyline is going to play out.  Don't get me wrong I want to find out who the author is but I don't want the writers to turn around and say this "all powerful" Author is responsible for everyone's decisions coz that just goes against everything they've said up til now.  I want to be optimistic they'll handle the story correctly but after being burned by the Marian/Robin storyline in 4A I don't know what to expect.

[YaddaYadda]

I don't care how the Author storyline plays out as long as they don't pin whatever on him.  They find him, he has a good laugh and tells them well everyone is responsible for their own happiness, the things you did, you did, period.  Now if everyone will kindly leave so that I can have my glass of red in peace.

[Dani-Ellie]

My whole problem, aside from the completely asinine "wah I don't have my happy ending, so let me find the Author of this book in which I am the only one who won at the end of it and make him give me another one" issue, is: the whole conceit of this show was that these people, while fairy tale characters, are real people. This stuff actually happened to them. They lived it. It may be the stuff of our fantasy but it was their reality.

 

Turning around and making them actually characters in some kind of cosmic story in which their actions and decisions were their actions and decisions because some cosmic Author wrote it that way completely undercuts the whole concept of the damn show. This is why Yadda Yadda's version of how this things plays out is the only way I'll be satisfied with it. They find the Author and he or she tells them that he or she is just recording events and that their happy endings are up to them and no one else can give it to them. Any other option just obliterates the entire premise.

Edited February 3, 2015 by Dani-Ellie

[Curio]

Another reason Operation Mongoose makes no damn sense: they don't even know if Regina's theory about The Author is correct. Regina just assumed he/she controls their destinies and can easily change their futures based off of no existing evidence. And now everyone goes along with this theory without anyone asking questions like, "Maybe the author just records events as they happen?" ...or... "Maybe there isn't even an author and the book is just a magical item that records events?" ...or... "Maybe there is an Author, but he can't change the past, present, or future?" ...or... "Maybe The Author did originally begin this book series of events, but he's dead now and has other 'prophets' who write the current stories?" ...or... "Maybe The Author doesn't fucking exist?" Why is no one else asking these kinds of questions?  Why is no one else questioning the stupidity of this plan?!

 

Basically, the entire plot of 4B will be focused on a hunch made by a character who is notorious for being delusional about things. Just think about that. Really, really, think about that.

 

If Regina (for some asinine reason) is correct and The Author does control everyone's actions and can change future events, then the writers have officially made this character more powerful than God. (At least in most Judeo-Christian teachings, even though God is an all-knowing and omniscient figure, He gives people free will to control their destinies and do whatever they want on Earth. Meaning freaking God doesn't even control human actions like The Author supposedly does in Once.)

[The Cake is a Pie]

I still don't understand why Emma's first reaction on finding out about Operation Moron wasn't to slap both Henry and Regina upside the head and point out that the book obviously only records events as they happen since she SAW it being erased and rewritten when she and Hook went back in time. Unless the Continuity Fairy being in the hat means the writers have completely forgotten that happened.

Hopefully Emma tells Hook what they're up to and he just laughs and says, you know that's a pointless wild goose chase, but hey, whatever gets Regina to stop whining about Robin.

[Guest]

I still don't understand why Emma's first reaction on finding out about Operation Moron wasn't to slap both Henry and Regina upside the head and point out that the book obviously only records events as they happen since she SAW it being erased and rewritten when she and Hook went back in time. Unless the Continuity Fairy being in the hat means the writers have completely forgotten that happened.

Hopefully Emma tells Hook what they're up to and he just laughs and says, you know that's a pointless wild goose chase, but hey, whatever gets Regina to stop whining about Robin.

 

But telling Regina that the book can be rewritten just encourages Regina to go back and do time travel instead so she can have the alternate picture that the Author left for Robin.  Its safer for Regina to try to change stuff from this point forward.

 

Seriously, in my headcannon, there are frequent town meetings that explain why everyone humors Regina's nonsense.  Its a frequently debated strategy to avoid her going all Evil Queen on them again.

[MaiLuna]

One thing I didn't realize until very after the 4A finale about the book, that even though Hook & Emma changed it, once Snow & Charming met again, EVERYTHING else happened just like the first time, which is a bit weird. So I think that may have shown a bit of fate/destiny and a fixed ending. Neal and other characters have mentioned fate & destiny too and the seer and Rumpel can see the future which implies there IS a fixed future which happens no matter what, so I guess the author can be writing destinies or part of them. I'd absolutely hate it, but it wouldn't be too different from what we've already seen on the show.

[YaddaYadda]

I wonder if that's not the reason they changed Snow Falls into Snow Drifts because that's re-writing something, but the outcome is still exactly the same.  David and Snow still fell in love, they took the kingdom back, they had a child and were cursed for 28 years.  Them meeting differently did not change that all these things still happened to them.

 

This is why I think that even if Regina had gone into the tavern, she would still have been a miserable shrew and she would still have cast the dark curse.  Robin being in her life would have changed diddly squat.

[Camera One]

Another reason Operation Mongoose makes no damn sense: they don't even know if Regina's theory about The Author is correct. Regina just assumed he/she controls their destinies and can easily change their futures based off of no existing evidence. And now everyone goes along with this theory without anyone asking questions like, "Maybe the author just records events as they happen?" ...or... "Maybe there isn't even an author and the book is just a magical item that records events?" ...

 

That's why I can't buy into the Find-the-Author plot.  Based on what we knew about the Book, it's simply a record of what happened.  So to me, it is inherently a bad idea, since it was based on nothing, and now Henry, Emma, Robin, Ursula and even freak'in Rumple is buying into it.  This is a fantasy show and I normally have no problem suspending my disbelief, but this Author thing seems to be breaking the existing mythology's rules about fate and self-determination.  They better have a resolution that will make sense, or it will be one of those jump-the-shark plot points that the show won't be able to recover from.

[Guest]

One thing I didn't realize until very after the 4A finale about the book, that even though Hook & Emma changed it, once Snow & Charming met again, EVERYTHING else happened just like the first time, which is a bit weird. So I think that may have shown a bit of fate/destiny and a fixed ending. Neal and other characters have mentioned fate & destiny too and the seer and Rumpel can see the future which implies there IS a fixed future which happens no matter what, so I guess the author can be writing destinies or part of them. I'd absolutely hate it, but it wouldn't be too different from what we've already seen on the show.

 

But the X factor in there is Rumpelstiltskin.  Rumpel has been portrayed as orchestrating everything to enact the Dark Curse as well as break it; and he specifically took a memory potion so he wouldn't know anything to change his course.  I think we can fanwank that he nudged things back in the direction he wanted them to go.

Edited February 4, 2015 by ParadoxLost

[FabulousTater]

Turning around and making them actually characters in some kind of cosmic story in which their actions and decisions were their actions and decisions because some cosmic Author wrote it that way completely undercuts the whole concept of the damn show. This is why Yadda Yadda's version of how this things plays out is the only way I'll be satisfied with it. They find the Author and he or she tells them that he or she is just recording events and that their happy endings are up to them and no one else can give it to them.

Except even if they come to that conclusion after the 11 episode arc all they will have done is spent 11 episodes telling us 1+1 = 2. How. Riveting. The writer's intended audience is clearly four year olds since those are the only people watching who haven't figured just how monumentally stupid this plot is.

 

I don't foresee any resolution to The Echo Chamber of Lunacy that won't come across as a pile of shite (to me). This plot isn't a Jump The Shark moment, it's Spongebob dressed as a shark, riding a shark, that's jumping over a pyramid of sharks, being pulled by a speedboat driven by yet another shark.

 

And if that wasn't enough stupid for everyone, the only reason every character on this show has been indoctrinated into The Echo Chamber of Lunacy is because of Regina. The entire premise of 4B is to get the village murdering Regina her happy ending. It's like "Hey, let's rewrite the ending of WWII because Hitler didn't get his happy ending!"

 

FML

Edited February 4, 2015 by FabulousTater

[Dani-Ellie]

Except even if they come to that conclusion after the 11 episode arc all they will have done is spent 11 episodes telling us 1+1 = 2. How. Riveting. The writer's intended audience is clearly four year olds since those are the only people watching who haven't figured just how monumentally stupid this plot is.

Well yes, of course, but I'd much rather 11 episodes be a waste of time than have four full seasons of premise be completely overturned. ;)

[FabulousTater]

Well yes, of course, but I'd much rather 11 episodes be a waste of time than have four full seasons of premise be completely overturned. ;)

 

I can see how that could seem preferable to some, but for me it's a choice between Option 1) Crap, or Option 2) Crap.  If I were to place a bet on how they resolve The Echo Chamber of Lunacy my money is not on "The book only records history. Your life and ending are what you make of it." (which would be the sane conclusion). See, the end of all of the Woegina plots these writers splooge onto the screen all have one recurring theme: "How do we make Woegina look good?" And the storybook & it's author only being history recorders and that Regina is a villain because she actually lived a vile and evil life doesn't feed into that [permaboner]. 

 

The way they do feed the permaboner with this plot is that the "good guys" finally figure out who the author that does control everything is, but the Queens of Darkness get to him first. To stop The Queens of Darkness from changing everyone's life (for the worse), Regina makes the "ultimate sacrifice" and destroys the author and/or the book, or whatever it is that would allow her to have her "deserved happy ending" written for her. But, there's a twist (*sarcastic gasp* *eye roll* *aneurism* *eye roll*) that everyone sees coming , Woegina's "noble sacrifice" results in her being rewarded with her "happy ending" anyway.

 

And, end season 4.

 

(That rumbling you hear is The Brothers Grimm, Walt Disney, Hans Christian Andersen, Aesop, Joseph Campbell, and Tolkien rolling over in their graves as they cry out in unison, "Oh my God, what is this crap?! Make it STOP!!!")

Edited February 4, 2015 by FabulousTater

[LizaD]

I think the writers just think they are being super clever and meta with this whole "author" plot thing. I know they're turning it into an actual story but I do believe that's the whole reason for going there.

[KingOfHearts]

Well, if it didn't involve Regina attempting to coerce the Author into giving her what she wants, then it wouldn't be so darn annoying. If the Author is the Sorcerer, or someone equally powerful, then it would be a smart idea to stop Rumple and the Queens from getting to him just in case he does have easily manipulated fate-changing powers. It really wouldn't take much for Team Villain to get the dagger back either, since they outnumber Emma and Regina.

 

But it's not about stopping the Queens, finding the Author or protecting the Dagger. It's about giving Ms. Hitler her boyfriend back through dubious means.

Edited February 4, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

My new plan is that Emma is only going along with the author plot so that she can ask the author to give everyone their happy endings, thus ending her Saviour duty. This includes, but is not limited to, Graham, Kurt & Owen, Baelfire, that village that Regina murdered, Marian, the mute maid, the guy Rumpel turned into a snail and crushed, Stealthy, the owners of all of the hearts in Regina's vault, Milah, Eva, etc. In spite of some of them having done some questionable things, each and every one of these people is more deserving of a happy ending than Regina or Rumpel. If they get one, so should every single one of their victims.

 

I just want this storyline to go away. It was a pointless exercise in 4A and the fact that it's the main thrust of the story in 4B is causing me to seriously consider not watching. This show has always been about understanding how your actions affect your happiness and taking responsibility for them. That was a wonderful message. Emma's speech to Ashley in Season 1 was meant to tell us what the show was about - that we are responsible for our own happiness and need to fight for it. If the showrunners' endless love for Regina changes that with this stupid book plot, I will finally be done with this show. 

Edited February 4, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Shanna Marie]

True, and it points out another major problem with the story overall: no dramatic tension. In a sense, it didn't really matter that he had no opposition. We knew he wasn't going to kill Hook, we knew he wasn't going to leave town with Belle and Henry, we knew he wasn't going to become the Grand Poobah of Planet Earth.

That's the real challenge of a series like this, where we know the bad guys aren't going to win for good and the main good guys aren't going to die. The dramatic tension doesn't come from what happens, but how it will happen and how these events will affect the characters. We know that Rumple will be stopped and that Hook will be saved. The real question was how it would happen and how these events would affect Hook, Emma, Rumple, and Belle and all their relationships.

 

So what did they show us? They skipped the "how" part (at least everything leading up to that final moment with Belle giving dagger orders) and the emotional impact and only showed Rumple being stopped and Hook being saved. They showed us the thing we knew would happen and skipped the parts that provided the dramatic tension.

 

I can see how that could seem preferable to some, but for me it's a choice between Option 1) Crap, or Option 2) Crap.  If I were to place a bet on how they resolve The Echo Chamber of Lunacy my money is not on "The book only records history. Your life and ending are what you make of it." (which would be the sane conclusion).

As soon as they had Emma endorse Operation Idiocy, they created a no-win situation. Even if they do go with the "The book only records history. Your life and ending are what you make of it" resolution, by having Emma think this is the best idea ever (in spite of many instances previously in which she had a totally different viewpoint about roles and destiny) they've made Emma look like an idiot. There's no way this can end well unless this turns into the Home Office plot 2.0, where they seemed to realize at the last minute that this plot totally sucked and there was no good way out of it, so they waved their hands really fast and said it was all a ruse by Pan and jumped straight into another plot without dealing with or resolving the Home Office. So we can cross our fingers that they come up with some other idea they like better and can't wait to get to and that they realize they've written themselves into a corner, and then suddenly all clues relating to the Author turn out to have been planted by the next supervillain as part of an evil scheme, and they'll conveniently forget how many characters fell for it.

[Curio]

There's no way this can end well unless this turns into the Home Office plot 2.0, where they seemed to realize at the last minute that this plot totally sucked and there was no good way out of it, so they waved their hands really fast and said it was all a ruse by Pan and jumped straight into another plot without dealing with or resolving the Home Office.

 

At this point, there are only two endings I will accept for Operation Mongoose:

 

1. It's all one big set-up for a story arc about alternate universes because the villains were able to change their happy endings.

2. Regina miraculously finds The Author, and the interaction goes something like this: 

"Regina, you're in luck. I can give you your happy ending."

"Hooray!"

"On one condition."

"Anything!"

"I shall go into your crypt and pull out one heart at random from your collection. If you can tell me the name of the owner of whose heart I picked, you can have your happy ending."

"...shit."

Edited February 4, 2015 by Curio

[Mari]

So what did they show us? They skipped the "how" part (at least everything leading up to that final moment with Belle giving dagger orders) and the emotional impact and only showed Rumple being stopped and Hook being saved. They showed us the thing we knew would happen and skipped the parts that provided the dramatic tension.

And they've done this so often, I think we've stopped expecting consequences and dramatic tension.

 

Just looking at our-admittedly nonscientific and with a fairly cynical response pool--poll about Belle and Rumple, we could be approaching the point where the lack of consequences and actual dramatic buildup have reached a boredom point.

 

Out of fifty votes, only three expect there to be long-term consequences for Belle's banishment of Rumple.  Three people.  Everyone else who's responded expects the couple to be back together before next season is over.  A fairly clear majority (44/50) thinks that the couple will be back together by the  end of this season.

 

Much of our community has ranted--deservedly so--about the lack of payoff with Emma and Hook and his heart.  But that was about 2/3 of 1/2 of a season.  Belle/Rumple and the banishment?  That's been building and deserved for years.  Actual years.

 

What does it say about Once that for the most part, we have no expectation of that action having any impact? 

Edited February 5, 2015 by Mari

[Mathius]

There's no way this can end well unless this turns into the Home Office plot 2.0, where they seemed to realize at the last minute that this plot totally sucked and there was no good way out of it, so they waved their hands really fast and said it was all a ruse by Pan and jumped straight into another plot without dealing with or resolving the Home Office. So we can cross our fingers that they come up with some other idea they like better and can't wait to get to and that they realize they've written themselves into a corner, and then suddenly all clues relating to the Author turn out to have been planted by the next supervillain as part of an evil scheme, and they'll conveniently forget how many characters fell for it.

Actually, the "Home Office = Pan" thing wasn't so last minute, it just came off that way because the writers played their cards too close to the chest. There was probably a legit anti-magic group idea in mind when Greg was introduced, but A&E said that the Neverland idea came during the making of "Manhattan", so the anti-magic group was changed into being a ruse by Pan and the Darling Bros. The biggest hint is the name "the Home Office" itself; the Home Office is a BRITISH government firm that handles border defense. The implication is that John and Michael came up with the name for the ruse group since it's allegedly about stamping out magic when it crosses the border to Earth.

[KingOfHearts]

It's possibly to be episodic without consequences if the execution is interesting, I agree. There are many shows that follow the "case of the week" format that are very enjoyable, and a majority of those follow a serialized canon stretching over the whole series. Shows like Star Trek can have bookend plots but still have a very elaborate continuity. Once's format however is closer to Lost, which was rarely about closed stories.

 

When Once does do stories with a beginning and end, it does really well for the most part. You can look at some of the off-shoots in S1 like True North or A Still Small Voice. Frozen was also very enjoyable, as was the time travel adventure. Now we get to the main plot, and it's all down hill from here. 2B was very PLOT PLOT PLOT, and it had almost no coherency whatsoever. 3B had the same problem with episodes like Quiet Mind and A Curious Thing. All over the place, no straight-forward form of mind.

 

Once doesn't always do well with one-offs or cellular storylines. The Tower, Ariel and Selfless, Brave and True come to mind. But even in 4A, it didn't seem the writers didn't know where to go, and that's where they always fall flat. That's probably one of the major reasons we get 11-episode arcs instead of the full 22. They're terrible with long-term story development.

[kitticup]

I just realized that I have always loved tha last episode of season and 3a. There is always something in the finale that makes me want to watch. At the end of Season 1, I wanted to see what it meant to break the curse. end of Season 2, I loved the Neverbacks with Hook and Bae and I was looking forward to see the dynamics with Hook, Rumple, Bae and to a lesser extent Emma. The last episode of 3a was so moving. I was looking forward to enchanted Forest and Hook getting Emma in NY. The 3b was a lot of fun. These finales made me want to come back for more.

But they blew it with season 4a. There was no pay off. Why should I care about the characters if the writers don't? I did love Belle confronting Rumple. That was awesome. Carlyle reverting back to the coward was well done, but it doesn't make me want to watch.

[Camera One]

Generally, I have preferred the second last episode before the finale.  I sometimes find the finales to be too much plot plot plot, until the very end in some cases.  I was actually disappointed by the S1 finale until the last 10 minutes with everyone being hit by the shockwave of memories.  It goes without saying the S2 finale sucked with no qualifications.  The 3A finale didn't impress me until the final 10 minutes... that was very poignant and felt like a series finale, while leaving me so intrigued.  In Season 3B, I don't count the time travel episodes to be the finale, since it was so stand-alone.  The 3B arc finale was "Kansas" which was horrible from start to finish.   It goes without saying the 4A finale sucked, ending included.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

If I avoid looking at Season 1 altogether since that season stands alone in its storytelling, I think the 2A finale was the most cohesive and engaging this show has ever done. Yes, there was plot, but the flashbacks answered a lot of questions in a fairly uncontrived way. It concluded the arc and left me satisfied, but had Cora & Hook arriving at the end to keep me interested in what's next. Since Season 2 was not actually split into two mini-arcs, I find it amusing that that mid-season finale was probably actually the best one they've had outside of the eminently enjoyable 3B finale, which as Camera One pointed out, wasn't really the closure of that arc, but more a one off story. 

[Shanna Marie]

The 3A finale didn't impress me until the final 10 minutes... that was very poignant and felt like a series finale, while leaving me so intrigued.  In Season 3B, I don't count the time travel episodes to be the finale, since it was so stand-alone.  The 3B arc finale was "Kansas" which was horrible from start to finish.   It goes without saying the 4A finale sucked, ending included.

You know, this is an interesting point -- they generally do those last ten minutes that leave you with such a good feeling that you forget all the crap that came right before. While the season 2 finale was generally awful (the diner speech!), the very end, with Hook turning back and the whole crew heading off to Neverland, was actually a pretty good ending that left me excited about the next season. The 3A finale was lame until the end, but that end was killer, with just enough of a hook with Hook showing up at Emma's front door in New York to carry over to the next season. "Kansas" was pretty awful, but then they gave us the standalone finale that reminded me why I watch this show. What most of these had in common was the emphasis on characters and relationships -- they wrapped up the plot, then let the characters have moments. In season 2, there was Hook's turnaround and Emma's reaction, Hook and Rumple's truce, Rumple and Belle's farewell. In 3A there were all the farewells at the town line. The 3B finale was all about the relationships. All of these good endings were essentially about the previous events sinking in and showing how the characters were affected. This is what the 4A finale missed entirely. It was plot from start to finish, entirely neglected the relationships and skipped showing us how the events had affected the characters. We didn't get that sense of a character coda.

[Curio]

This is what the 4A finale missed entirely. It was plot from start to finish, entirely neglected the relationships and skipped showing us how the events had affected the characters. We didn't get that sense of a character coda.

 

Unfortunately, we did actually get some relationship and character moments, but it was with Robin/Regina and Emma/Regina. The first pairing shouldn't have been given the amount of time it did in the finale because they were barely a huge thing in 4A (and they kind of suck as a couple in general), and the second pairing's character moments should have been held off until 4B.

[KingOfHearts]

 

It was plot from start to finish, entirely neglected the relationships and skipped showing us how the events had affected the characters. We didn't get that sense of a character coda.

Well, three "couples" got spotlight - Outlaw Queen, Rumpbelle and Swan Queen, but all of their interactions directly involved PLOT. OQ's big goodbye was more about the Hoods leaving and Marian almost dying again than the actual feelings Robin and Regina had for each other. Rumpbelle was all about kicking Rumple out and exposing the dagger lie, which was a major setup for 4B. Even in flashbacks it was about showcasing the Queens of Darkness, not their relationship status over the years. Then you have Emma and Regina, who only interacted for the Author setup and the library discovery. It wasn't about anyone's emotions, but what could move the plot forward. Snowing and Captain Swan were sidelined completely.

 

Some plots, like Henry working at Gold's shop and Hook's heart amounted to nothing. 4x11 focused more on setting up 4B than concluding 4A. What makes it even more disappointing is that the setup wasn't even anything to write home about.

Edited February 5, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

Unfortunately, we did actually get some relationship and character moments, but it was with Robin/Regina and Emma/Regina.

But it wasn't in the same kind of emotional aftermath coda that has elevated other finales -- the reaction after the main action was over. The Emma/Regina coda really had nothing to do with the action we'd just seen. We got no follow-up to the main action of the Rumple plot, and the final hook/twist was just a rehashing of everything we've heard all season long about the damn book that's ruining Regina's life. There was nothing on a par with the whole gang sailing to Neverland or the farewells at the town line, followed by Emma's new life and the surprising return of her old one.

 

The emotional coda is a neat trick for blurring bad feelings from the prior story and making you eager for what happens next. It reminds me of something I noticed about the work of a bestselling romance novelist who shall remain nameless. I don't actually like her books but had to read some to judge for an award, and I realized that the scene before the big romantic conclusion scene was always a tearjerker, usually involving a child. The scene was often quite random and had nothing to do with the main plot. It was like throwing in a Kleenex commercial. But that meant that when you read the big "I love you" romance conclusion scene, you were already teary-eyed, and that made the conclusion of the romance feel more emotional than it really was, and then that made you like the book better. When you really looked at the books, there wasn't much there, but since you ended with tears in your eyes, you had the impression that it had been so deeply emotional.

 

So what this show tends to do is have a mess of a plot that they resolve by waving their hands around really fast, then clinch the arc with a big, emotional scene that digs deep into the characters and then makes you care about their fates, so you're left with a positive feeling, no matter how crappy the story really was. And they totally failed to do that in this arc. I wonder what might have worked as a better coda -- maybe everyone else arriving at the town line to find Belle there alone, weeping. Snow consoles Belle. Emma is still clinging to Hook like she doesn't want to let him go while he stares pensively into the distance, not quite ready to let himself feel safe about his nemesis being gone for good. Then we get the six weeks later scene with Rumple and realize he may be on his way back. There, I fixed it.

[YaddaYadda]

Some plots, like Henry working at Gold's shop amounted to nothing.

 

I'm not one to cry over Henry not getting screen time because well, hate!!  But that was a complete WTF.  Henry did not discover anything, he did not see what his grandfather was doing, he did not find out about the dagger, the hat or the heart and he did not have any bonding moments with Rumple so anything he might feel in 4B regarding what Rumple tried to do to especially his mother (Emma, because she's still is his mother) is just really meh.  I hope they're not going to have scenes of Henry being all conflicted.

 

The only thing I got from 4A regarding Henry is that he is more Regina's son now than he is Emma's.  He used the memory of his dead father to try and manipulate Rumple.  I can also say that this is one thing Rumple did to Regina when he used whatever she felt for Daniel to get her on his side.  Henry is obviously nowhere near there, but it's always good to know who he takes after.

[KingOfHearts]

 

We got no follow-up to the main action of the Rumple plot, and the final hook/twist was just a rehashing of everything we've heard all season long about the damn book that's ruining Regina's life.

The writers probably thought Outlaw Queen's second break-up and Rumpbelle's fifty-millionth break-up would have been tearjerkers. Maybe for some diehard shippers, but we all know they're going to get back together. They're not fooling us. There was nothing final about it. Both were random with very little setup. Emma joining Operation Woe didn't have any emotional impact either, and it was far from being warranted as a true hook. I don't know why the writers thing something as bizarre and unlogical as the Author plot would have any relation to the audience.

 

 

I'm not one to cry over Henry not getting screen time because well, hate!!  But that was a complete WTF.

If they had kept that deleted scene with Rumple where he wanted his memories removed, or if we had gotten more scenes of him interacting with his grandpa deeper than furniture polish jokes, then it might have been worth it. But we didn't, yet we had a whole Apprentice parallel as some big twist.

 

 

maybe everyone else arriving at the town line to find Belle there alone, weeping.

This. So much this. The fact we didn't see Belle after the fact just blew it for me. We have a six week time jump, which means they don't plan on addressing it in the future besides the normal Rumpbelle angst. If you're going to make Belle independent by kicking Rumple out, then we need to see her feelings separately from Rumple. 

[Delphi]

I honestly think to make the finale work in some sort of relative pay off that it could have literally been a sixty second scene with a good score and you wouldn't even need dialogue, show Belle walking back into town crying, shift to Hook and Emma holding each other, making out hell just staring at each other, show the charmings with snowflake, maybe show Henry exploring the mansion briefly and give the illusion more than five seconds had past and then have Emma go see Regina, at her house because Regina wouldn't have been in the diner, she wouldn't want anyone see her weak and sad. Have Emma bring the bottle with her.

And after Henry crashes the party, Emma could be a little sloshed and that's why Emma thinks it's a fantastic idea.

[Curio]

I honestly think to make the finale work in some sort of relative pay off that it could have literally been a sixty second scene with a good score and you wouldn't even need dialogue, show Belle walking back into town crying, shift to Hook and Emma holding each other, making out hell just staring at each other, show the charmings with snowflake, maybe show Henry exploring the mansion briefly and give the illusion more than five seconds had past and then have Emma go see Regina, at her house because Regina wouldn't have been in the diner, she wouldn't want anyone see her weak and sad. Have Emma bring the bottle with her.

 

I like all of that up until Emma going to see Regina. For me, that scene should have waited until 4B. This is how I would have done the 4A cliffhanger:

 

• Show a proper resolution to Hook's heart storyline by having Emma and Hook's final scene of the episode be in the clock tower. Emma runs up the stairs and they have an emotional conversation before she puts his heart back in. They kiss. End scene.
• Show Belle walking down the road by herself crying. She turns around and looks back at the town line, looks down at the dagger, then pensively looks off into the distance. End scene.
• Show Snow calling David on her cell phone letting him know it's okay for him and Henry to leave the mansion, implying they stayed there to protect Henry from whatever it was Rumple was doing. David gets off the phone and calls out to Henry, who's a weirdo and decides to not care about any of the drama going on in town and is exploring every room in the mansion. When David finally finds him, they're in the hallway. He tells Henry it's time to meet up with everyone else at Granny's, but right when he says that, Henry accidentally sets off the secret passage, and the walls shift. Camera pans to Henry and David's faces as they look on in awe, but the room isn't shown yet. END EPISODE.

 

Everything about Rumple in New York and Regina wallowing in her depression could have been held off until 4B. Rumple in New York as the intro scene of 4B would have been a fun call back to the intro to 2A, where the audience was randomly thrown into an NYC setting without expecting it. Regina moping around was just a downer and brought down the vibe of the episode, so save that for the first episode of 4B. 

Edited February 6, 2015 by Curio

[Souris]

OMG, Curio, that would have been SO EFFING MUCH BETTER! Quick, somebody get me a brain, a broken sword, a heart and a baby, and I'll go back in time and make it happen.

[coops]

I honestly think introducing magic to storybrooke was one of the shows biggest mistakes. In the first season in storybrooke the characters were forced to work through things emotionally because there was no magic whereas now as mentioned the only emtional scenes come in the last ten minutes of the finale. All the time before that is spent on plots evolving around trying to find magic wands/gauntlets/ribbons etc. Also the absence of magic in SB made the magic in the enchanted forest seem more real. I loved the contrast between the enchsnted forest and storybrooke in the first season as well as the fact the we saw the characters feelings rather than them constantly try to prevent some crazy curse.

[Mitch]

Agreed coops but the producers and writers don't. I remember when they brought magic back it was a "big game changer," and all it did was make the heroes useless until a convenient out and the villains all powerful. Magic is Storybrooke is too much of a "good," thing and just looks stupid when you see Regina facing off with a witch in front of a hardware store...not to mention a really bad CGI giant or ice monster walking down main street.  Magic in their world made more sense as it was mores surreal, like a dream and the effects don't look as stupid as "everything," looks weird or off in their world.  The worst thing is that it made every character dumber...Regina and Rump had to use their brains and manipulation. (oh how I miss my Mayor Mills and her wins/losses with Emma) ..Snow and Charming seem almost brain dead now.

 

And Curio..totally agree with "your" season ender....watching Regina sadly walk away from the town line alone after doing the right thing, lost its power when you see Regina whimpering at Granny's...which, Regina used to be a character that would not let anyone see her "weak," and there she is..in the middle of town, drinking at a bad diner...(doesn't Storybrooke have a cool jazz club or wine or martini bar..THAT would be more Regina's style.) I have to say, I miss Regina's rocking ass house and I sent the Curse of Ugly Decorating to the new real owners of the house that will not let them film there (maybe they are fans who have sat through the last two seasons and are just pissed...) I dont care about Emma having a house, Regina needs a rocking ass cool house or condo to hang in instead of a crypt!

 

I ramble...which this show makes me do....

[Shanna Marie]

The fact we didn't see Belle after the fact just blew it for me. We have a six week time jump, which means they don't plan on addressing it in the future besides the normal Rumpbelle angst. If you're going to make Belle independent by kicking Rumple out, then we need to see her feelings separately from Rumple.

That, and not just for her feelings, but for practical purposes. If I'm Hook, then I'd want to be good and sure that Mr. Sparkles is neutralized, for realsies, so I'd want to see exactly what Belle did after making him poof them to the town line. Did she kick him over the line, give him a stern lecture and then cave to the Puppy Eyes of False Contrition, or did she stab him with the dagger and become the new Dark One? I would definitely want some follow-up there. If I'm Emma, then I'd want to know what in the name of the Holy Hand Grenade is going on. There's no way that Anna knew enough to clue Emma in on the whole story. Emma arrived to see the roof of the tower opened, swirly lights, and Rumple holding Hook's heart, about to crush it. You'd think she'd be curious. So if they're allowed to act like, you know, human beings, then I'd imagine that the first thing he'd do is head down the stairs toward Emma, hand his heart to her and say, "Would you mind? Now, please use your yellow vehicle to convey us to the town line, posthaste." Meanwhile, she'd be rushing toward him, all, "What's going on, are you okay?" and he'd say he'll explain in the car. They wouldn't be able to arrive there before Rumple was gone, but they could find Belle, learn what happened, console her, worry about whether Rumple could get into the town again, and then give the poor girl a ride back to town. We get the nice recurring motif of the town line as a cosmic threshold and Emma looks like less of an asshole for ditching the boyfriend who nearly died to drink with Regina and for making what Belle just went through into a joke to console Regina, as though her experience even remotely compared to what Regina was going through.

 

When David finally finds him, they're in the hallway. He tells Henry it's time to meet up with everyone else at Granny's, but right when he says that, Henry accidentally sets off the secret passage, and the walls shift. Camera pans to Henry and David's faces as they look on in awe, but the room isn't shown yet. END EPISODE.

That's lovely imagery (there would have to be a sort of golden light on their faces as they look on in awe, of course), but it would be a shame to waste it on Operation Dumbass because the reveal of a room full of blank books would be kind of anticlimactic -- that's what they were so in awe about? It's not as exciting as they seem to think it is, and as a cliffhanger, something they've been talking about all season and that still makes zero sense is a weak note to end on. The better cliffhangers end on an element of change, especially change with an element of danger to suggest that this is something that's going to upset the apple cart -- season one: the curse broke and the wave of magic was approaching; 2A: Hook and Cora on their way to Storybrooke; 2B: the whole gang, including former enemies, on their way to Neverland; 3A: the return to the Enchanted Forest, and then the glimpse at Emma's new "normal" life suddenly disrupted by Hook's arrival. 3B was more of a hype cliffhanger because we know Elsa's not a threat, but the end of that episode did show changes in a lot of the major relationships. This scene might make a good capper for the end of the first episode of the new arc, though. They have plenty of reasons to go back to explore the mansion, since they know that's where the hat was found and that's where the portal was. When we know more about what Rumple's Angels plan to do about the Author, the discovery of the blank books has more impact.

 

So if I'm not allowed to rewrite the entire season, I think I'd end Regina's story with her sadly walking away from the town line after having done the right thing, as suggested above. Don't dilute that with wallowing or coddling, and Operation Mongoose is only a cliffhanger when we learn that the villains are co-opting it. Let at least Emma, Hook and Snow show up to find out what happened at the town line, with some body language/subtext to show emotions there -- Hook shaken and a little worried, Emma worried about him, Snow comforting Belle, Belle trying to be brave and angry through her tears. Then something of Rumple in the outside world to suggest that he could still be a threat. I'm not sure about putting the time jump there (time needs to pass at some point in this series because it's getting ridiculous), but he could run into one of the Queens while he's down, she could mock him, and his bargaining chip to keep her from tormenting him could be the idea of the Author -- you can't kill me while I'm helpless because you need me to get what you've always wanted, your happy ending.

[KingOfHearts]

 

You'd think she'd be curious. So if they're allowed to act like, you know, human beings,

They didn't even do anything to imply they went over it. Even that would have been enough. They didn't have to give us the whole rundown, but at least cover one detail and don't cut right to Boozing with Regina. They could have opened the scene with Emma saying, "So you got your hand back just for me?" or, "I'm really sorry I didn't see it sooner. I was so focused on Ingrid," at least for continuity reasons. You can't tell me Emma, Ms. Investigative Bailbondsperson, wasn't interested in the whole hand thing or how Hook got into that mess in the first place.

Edited February 6, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

You can't tell me Emma, Ms. Investigative Bailbondsperson, wasn't interested in the whole hand thing or how Hook got into that mess in the first place.

And then there's the fact that she noticed something was wrong in the diner, he managed to signal her that something was wrong, and the guy who escaped from the hospital and sailed to New York with broken ribs the day after being hit by a car was saying he couldn't go see off the Arendelle gang because he needed to go to the hospital to get checked out for a few bruises, and yet she did absolutely nothing about it. That's when you'd think that Ms. Investigative Bailbondsperson would have followed him, or something.

[Shanna Marie]

Regina is going to try and find happiness within herself, but to do that she needs the author?

Yeah, if you need outside magical intervention, you're not doing it within yourself. Of course, we'll see every second of this emotional development onscreen. Everyone else's emotional development will take place offscreen.

 

We really do need a spinoff. Original Recipe Once Upon a Time will star Lana Parilla (since no second of Regina's life takes place offscreen) and cardboard cutouts of the rest of the cast that can be moved around to carry out the plot (we don't need actual actors because their characters aren't allowed to have emotional reactions anyway). Then the spinoff, Once Upon a Time in Offscreenville, will star the rest of the cast and will include all those scenes we never got to see -- not only the emotional reactions, conversations and character development, but also the stuff like investigating, learning stuff and planning strategies.

 

On Regular Once Upon a Time, we saw Emma learn that Rumple had lied and Belle find the gauntlet. In Once Upon a Time in Offscreenville, we'd have seen Belle try to go back to getting ready for her honeymoon until she just couldn't resist trying the gauntlet. Just when she'd determined that it wasn't pointing to her, Emma showed up, demanding to see Gold because she'd learned he'd lied about not knowing Anna. Belle was shocked and wondered what he was hiding. She mentioned the hat. That made Emma suspicious about how he'd been planning to take away her powers. She went to call Hook but couldn't find her phone. Belle noticed a phone under the counter, which turned out to be Emma's. Emma got Hook's message and was very worried. Together with Snow, the three of them came up with a plan. They found that the gauntlet pointed to the clock tower, which was having a light show. Emma used her magic to send Belle to whatever the gauntlet was pointing to while she and Snow played decoy to distract Rumple until Belle could grab the dagger. Then the regular show just showed Belle making Rumple poof them to the edge of town. Back on the spinoff, we'd see Emma rushing up the stairs while Hook rushed down the stairs, demanding to go to the town line to see what was happening to Rumple. He insisted on putting his heart in a safe place -- like the safe at Granny's -- until he could be sure Rumple was out of the way, as his heart was the key to Rumple's scheme. On the way there, Hook and Emma argued about him keeping secrets and her not answering her bloody phone, with the argument clearly being a mask for all the deeper emotions. Snow cleared her throat loudly from the back seat to remind them that they weren't alone. Then they found Belle and found out what happened before giving her a ride back to town. In the regular show we saw Hook's heart restored. Back in the spinoff, we saw Rumple's first adjustment to the regular world and his frustration at not being able to use magic. Eventually, he remembered his credit cards and pulled himself together somewhat. In his hotel room, he saw a TV feature on the aquarium, and in the background of the shot he saw an employee who looked familiar. Then he came up with a plan.

 

The hiatus episodes of the spinoff were also really good. Belle held a massive open house event at Gold's shop, inviting everyone to come claim their stuff. Then she moved back into the library apartment and settled into being a full-time librarian. Emma was initially standoffish with Hook until he confronted her about it, correctly diagnosing that she was scared of losing him after seeing him nearly die. He told her that he'd also lost everyone he'd loved, and not just because of being alive for 200 years. What he'd learned along the way was that life was only worth living if you had something in it that you knew would hurt to lose. Meanwhile, Emma was working on finding a way to free the magical beings from the hat (because why would they wait six weeks to start?). In the outside world, we got some fun fish-out-of-water adventures of the Hood family facing the World Without Magic and all its modern technology. But apparently this stuff is no fun to write and no one would want to watch it, so they're just skipping it.

[RadioGirl27]

Shanna Marie, I would pay to watch that show.
 

Honestly, while I agree that no one should be friends with the person who tried to kill them and cast a curse to ruin their happy ending, I'm beyond okay with Snow and Regina being contained in their WTF!Bubble.

If they promise me that Regina will stay away from Emma, I'm all for this wonderful friendship between Snow and her (almost)killer.

[Mitch]

I don't know..the relationship between the Charmings and Emma isnt all that interesting. If they continued to touch on the fact that Emma is a grown woman and doenst need Snow and Charmings dumb advice and have street smart Emma rolling her eyes at her goofy fairy tale parents, yea. But having Prince Nimrod who looks the same age as Emma trying to get involved in her love life is kind of creepy and both of them, despite their supposed heroics in their world, really are kind of like naive kids in this world. I like that they have made them all be more like friends of the same age, especially now that they both have a baby to moon over now.

 

The drama is in Emma and Snows realtionship with Regina..but I will agree that the writers continually fail at making this interesting. I do hope the days of Regina "I WILL have my revenge," on Snow is over but their relationship doesnt ring true. Deep down inside I think the good Regina of old liked Snow and Snow is unhumanly forgiving and probably looked at Regina as a mom until it all went to hell so there is that to work with, and I think Regina and Emma are two sides of the same coin and have a grudging respect for each other there should be an edge to all of these relationships, and the writers dont explore that. Its like they cant handle anything other then Regina hating and wanting to kill them, or them being friends and kissing Regina's ass. There is a middle ground and that is the interesting part that the writers dont explore. IT would have been interesting during the lost year to show Regina and Snow living in the same castle and fighting a common enemy and learnging to deal with each other. Regina could gain respect for Snow's military prowess, while Snow could gain respect for how Regina's underhanded trickery in dealing with Zelenas forces. Snow would be good at ralling the populations using her populairty and Regina would be good in interigating Zelena's captured forces in Full Evil Queen intimidation. All the while they would be bickering with each other while Charming rolls his eyes (or gets it on with the chambermaid...sorry just kidding.)  As it is we have to take it for granted that their life together in their world got them to this point and that is unsatisfying.

 

And I love Regina...but to make these relationships wor she needs to say just once, "I am sorry."  and then we move on.

[Serena]

I have seen the "Emma and Regina are two sides of the same coin" thing sooo many times, and I still don't freaking get it. What does that even mean? That lots of crappy things happened in their life, and Regina responded by murdering and whining, and Emma responded by becoming a hero? Is that what "two sides of the same coin" mean? What's the same coin? I don't get it.

[Camera One]

They would probably repeat what they wrote for Emma in "Breaking Glass":  "[My parents] don't know what it feels like to be rejected and misunderstood, not the way I do, not the way you do.  And somehow that makes us I don't know unique, or maybe even special."

[YaddaYadda]

Emma should pick up Henry's book and brush up on Regina's history and how she used her uniqueness.

[Dani-Ellie]

I don't know..the relationship between the Charmings and Emma isnt all that interesting.

 

This makes me sad, because to me, this is by far the most interesting relationship dynamic set out by the show's premise, and statements like that make me realize just how completely and totally the writers are failing to make the most of it.

 

Because the story of how this family comes together, how they all learn to move past the pain and become a family, how Emma deals with not only finding her parents after searching for her entire life but also discovering they're Snow White and Prince Charming, how Snow and Charming deal with missing their daughter's entire life up to this point, how they work through the pain and the anguish and the loss to find the love and the warmth and the comfort ... that's the story I'm interested in.

Edited February 8, 2015 by Dani-Ellie

[FabulousTater]

I have seen the "Emma and Regina are two sides of the same coin" thing sooo many times, and I still don't freaking get it. What does that even mean?

I think it's total shit nonsense. It's something the writers said once and it's been repeated like it's Jesus speaking his wisdom from the mount. In the writers twisted brains Regina and Emma are one in the same persons and it's only the tiny superficial difference of all the murdering, torturing, cursing, and full blown evil that Regina does (and doesn't regret) that separates them, and that's but a mere inconsequential and superficial difference. 'Cause otherwise they are totally the same....ya, riiiight, just like every one of us is the other side of the coin of Hitler. Lord knows any minute now I'm a stray thought away from starting a genocidal war, killing a bunch a people and not regretting any of it. Because that's not crazy at all. Mass murder isn't insane at all. It's just a slight emotional overreaction any one of us could be capable of at any moment. So you see, deep down inside Emma is a homicidal maniac just like Regina. Kumbaya, everyone.

 

Pffft, it's total BS and just another piece of shit line that the writers go around saying as if it were a deep thought.

Edited February 8, 2015 by FabulousTater

[KAOS Agent]

Mayor Mills and Emma were more on par with the two sides of the same coin. They have certain similarities (though the comparisons drawn by people are sometimes really, really suspect) which allows for the story to emphasize their differences by their actions. Emma consistently made the right choices when faced with a problem, while Regina often would not when faced with the same issue. When you compare them as magic-less individuals in Season 1, they work well as foils. Things have changed significantly over time with them, so the show's ability to compare/contrast them doesn't work as well now (see: the failed parallels in "Breaking Glass").

 

Then you have the problem of the Evil Queen. She's just batshit crazy. There isn't a way to compare real world, non-magic Emma with the psychopathic, magic wielding freakshow that is the Evil Queen. It's part of the reason why the writers try to pretend that Regina and the Evil Queen are two separate people. Emma would have to go on a Hitler-like genocidal campaign of terror for them to try to compare/contrast her actions with the Evil Queen. The Queen's actions are completely unsympathetic and irredeemable. She's just nuts. Regina's actions can be played in contrast to Emma and be shown as sympathetic or misunderstood. Now, obviously, I don't buy what they're selling with regards to Regina, but the story has the characters buying into and even vocalizing that Regina and the Evil Queen are different, so we're stuck with the Emma/Regina parallels. 

 

To further blur the characters, Regina and Zelena were paralleled with Regina being portrayed as the hero in 3B, while the real actual parallels between Emma/Zelena were completely ignored. Emma would have been a much better foil for Zelena than Regina. That is unless you're only focused on the fact that both Zelena and Regina are nut jobs and want to compare/contrast the crazy.

Edited February 8, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[KingOfHearts]

 

Then you have the problem of the Evil Queen. She's just batshit crazy.

I almost wish Mayor Mills was simply a cursed personality for this reason. But since there's nothing different between EF and SB Regina, besides an Our World 101 download, she has no excuse. There's no struggling with the fact she's actually a mass-murderer. She's still the same person! It was another hole the writers dug themselves into.

 

Could I see Mayor Mills as redeemable? Yes. Could she love Henry? Maybe. Could she maybe even befriend Emma? Perhaps. Ugh! A cursed Regina finding out about her true past then struggling with it would have been sooo much better than her knowing all along and relishing in it. Emma defending her would have made more sense, her problems with people not accepting her would have made for sense, her relationship with Henry would have made more sense, and her redemption would have been so much more believable.

They should have had her get her memories back late Season One, then have her have to cope with it behind the scenes. Self-awareness, people! It bothers me how easily fixable this show could have been. If they wanted her to look like the Evilest Thing to Ever Evil in S1, they shouldn't have started a quick redemption in S2. It's called long-term planning.

Edited February 8, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

I think an entire episode or more of Once Upon a Time in Offscreenville would need to be devoted to the Shattered Sight spell and the aftermath.

 

What we saw: Snow and David bickering, Snow and Regina having a cat fight that was an evening gown and a swimming pool away from being a Dynasty parody, a Marx brothers movie playing out on Main Street, and Henry re-enacting Home Alone with Hook.

 

But what really happened during the spell that was so dangerous that they would all destroy each other, so bad that Ingrid killed herself to stop it? I think there would need to have been at least one death from a spell supposedly so dangerous, just to make it real and serious, even if it was a character who was basically a whale and a bowl of petunias wearing a red shirt -- someone introduced and made sympathetic just to kill them.

 

And then there would need to be some aftermath -- some destruction, mourning the death, some harmed relationships or hurt feelings from the things said or done during the spell. Not to mention Emma wondering about Hook's fate and their reunion after they parted with the sense that he knew he would die.

 

And speaking of things happening offscreen, what has been happening during all those sailing trips with Hook and Henry? Not that I'm campaigning for more screen time for Henry (unless we can give him the Pinocchio treatment and make him the season one model all over again), but there were all those scenes of Henry and Hook last season, and they seem to have been building a nice relationship, but this season I think the Shattered Sight Home Alone moment was their only scene together that wasn't a group scene, so we haven't seen Hook and Henry interact while Henry had his real memories. We just know that Henry said he wasn't okay with Emma asking Hook out on a date but wanted her to be happy and was pushing her toward it, and he called Hook a filthy pirate and set a trap for him during the spell. We don't know if what he said during the spell was something he really felt that was brought out by the spell or if the spell just made him say nasty things. It's hard to tell based on the way everyone else reacted because it was so inconsistent. I seriously doubt that Snow really thinks Whale is a better lover than David, but I sincerely hope that there's something in her screaming "I was TEN!" every time Regina blames her for telling a secret.

 

I'm not even sure why they bothered with the bit between Hook and Henry since it ended up meaning nothing -- Hook trying to take Henry didn't make the others suspicious of him, the fact that he wasn't affected by the spell wasn't a clue that he didn't have his heart -- and because we've seen no scenes with them together we didn't know if Hook was hurt by what Henry said or if Henry really meant it. So in Once Upon a Time in Offscreenville, we'd have had at least a glimpse or two of them on those sailing trips -- is Henry asking Hook more about his father now that Hook can talk openly about what their relationship was and not get caught up in the fact that Hook knew Bae when he was a teenager even though Neal was older than Hook? Have they talked at all about Neverland? Have they hashed out anything about how Hook feels about Emma? Does Henry now feel better about them dating? Is he getting used to the idea? Or does Henry spend the whole time on these trips sulking and refusing to warm up to Hook? If we'd seen anything, positive or negative, between them, then that scene would have had a lot more emotional resonance. Would Hook have felt especially bad about betraying a trust he'd thought they were developing or would he fear this would be the final nail in his coffin with Henry? Was he hurt by what Henry said or just used to it? Did it come as a surprise?