A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[Rumsy4]

I suspect casual viewers aren't so much angry than they are completely UNINTERESTED. This story arc is boring, which is why it's hit an all-new low in how many viewers catch it live.

 

Agree. The writing and cast have become more stilted, bloated, and boring with each half-season. Its no wonder the viewership is dropping so much.

[stealinghome]

Yeah, I have to say that at least the people I know IRL who watch think the show has gotten a) bad and b) boring/unentertaining. They're not mad like we are, but they're just rolling their eyes constantly at the show, don't think it's worth their time anymore.

 

And while it's certainly true that most (serialized) shows do bleed viewership once they get into like the 3rd season, the MASSIVE ratings drop in 4A is a pretty strong indictment of the writing staff, IMO. The Frozen boost should've really revitalized the show ratings-wise. ABC execs can't be pleased, exactly, that OUAT squandered the huge uptick Frozen gave them initially--they should've been able to hold onto some of that for at least a season.

Edited March 31, 2015 by stealinghome

[Shanna Marie]

Most of the people I know in real life who used to watch this show gave up long ago during 2B when the Regina woe fest kicked in, and that's the reason they gave for it. They liked the fun twists on fairy tales and the optimism in season one, but didn't like the poor, sad villain nonsense in season two. I think a few people I know tried again for the Frozen arc but left because of the "you ruined Robin Hood!" factor. So there's not really anyone left in my immediate social circle to bail at this point.

 

I do think that this arc is worse than 2B because at least the show was new enough that 2B wasn't a drastic retcon of established characterization and events, and the plot made some kind of vague sense. It wasn't satisfying and it was all over the map (Cora! The Home Office! No, wait, it was Pan!), but it didn't constantly contradict itself within the same episode -- villains can't get happy endings, except they do, the author controls it, but actually it's free will, but if we destroy the author then Regina can't get a happy ending.

[Mathius]

Season 4 must be a big disappointment for the network compared to Season 3, just like Season 2 was a disappointment compared to Season 1. S3 was incredibly steady, with the first half of 3A scoring 7 million live regularly, the second half of 3A scoring 6 million live regularly, and all of 3B constantly going back and forth between 6 and 7 million (save for "Bleeding Through" on Easter, which got 5 million.)

Compare that to S4, which started out with 9/8 million before dropping to 7 million, then to 6 million with that random two-hour episode, then 5 million with "Heroes and Villains", only rising back to 6 million with the first two episodes of 4B before falling back to 5 million (makes sense, since 4B's first episode was surprisingly good, but it all went to heck in the second one.) There's no steadiness, just a progressive drop.

[HoodlumSheep]

^ I mentioned part of this in the ratings thread when someone mentioned that S4 has the potential to be lower rated (overall I guess?) than season 3, if it hasn't already reached this point.

Say what you will about season 3, but it was incredibly stable. Season 4 has just gone down, down, down. For one, this back half has tried to juggle or flip flop too many ideas a lot like 2b.

season 3 pretty much focuses on single plot per half season. 3a was #SaveHenry, 3b was stop Wicked. There really were no other side plots going on this season which allowed it to focus better in my opinion.

I'd agree that as of right now, 4b is coming off worse than 2b. It's been a little boring, Snowing are acting like total wack-a-doodles. I no longer know what fairybacks are due to the evil author or free will. I'm just too confused. they're still going "villains don't get happy endings," but then Ursula gets hers and Emma makes comments about there is no way she's going dark, which then seems to contradict her believing in this whole "author controls fate" nonsense. And Rumple is seemingly slowly dying or something now too.

And I'm still wondering how August learned all this stuff about the author and how he knew Nealfire was Baelfire. Unless I completely missed it.

I'm just too confused. ;_;

Also, a friend who is a casual viewer is not too fond if the author plot either.

Pretty much the only bright spot in 4b has been Cruella.

[Curio]

Most of the people I know in real life who used to watch this show gave up long ago during 2B

 

That's when the rest of my family tuned out, too. I keep trying to tell them that the Neverland arc is actually a huge improvement, but they reached the point where they just don't care about the storylines anymore and were so confused about 2B that they're afraid to jump back in again. I don't necessarily blame them.

 

The sad thing is, (as many of us point out time and time again), this show has the potential to be so good if the writers just focused less on ridiculous plots, simplified the adventures, and focused more on the characters and their relationships with one another. My favorite scenes this half season haven't been the "action-packed" battles against fake CGI monsters or the SURPRISE! twists, it has been the less flashy character moments. Rumple eating ramen in a shabby apartment, the villains going through a drive-through, Hook and Belle bonding in the library, Hook bringing Emma grilled cheese and their realistic relationship talks about seeing the best in each other and not worrying about wooden man-children, etc. Even the Charming/Snow secret confession to Emma was riveting...for all 3 seconds we got to see of it. That entire confession should have been the focal point of the episode, but the writers thought a flashback that completely retconned Snow and Charming's personalities was more important.

Pretty much the only bright spot in 4b has been Cruella.

 

Cruella, Hook, and Emma are literally the only people keeping me watching right now. Normally, Charming is also on that list, but the writers have tossed him the idiot ball this half season so I can't even root for him right now.

[YaddaYadda]

That entire confession should have been the focal point of the episode, but the writers thought a flashback that completely retconned Snow and Charming's personalities was more important.

 

The more things go, the more I wonder how much retconning they're really doing with Snow.

 

The more I see Snow since the curse broke, the more I see her as a control freak.  And because I see her as a control freak, I'm not at all surprised that she behaved the way she did.  David is just along for the ride.

[Shanna Marie]

The more I see Snow since the curse broke, the more I see her as a control freak.  And because I see her as a control freak, I'm not at all surprised that she behaved the way she did.  David is just along for the ride.

But wouldn't the curse be the sort of thing that turns someone into a control freak? She spent 28 years having no free will, being forced to be someone she really isn't, having her life completely out of her control. She has memories of doing things she would never have wanted to do or chosen to do, of behaving in ways she never would have if she'd been in control of her life, and of being totally powerless while the deck was stacked against her. At least as Bandit Snow she had the chance to fight back against Regina and was able to rally people to her side. As Mary Margaret, she was being railroaded into being convicted of a murder she didn't commit, and she was utterly powerless to do anything about it because all the evidence was being cooked. That would turn anyone into a control freak in the aftermath. David didn't have quite the same experience, as he spent the 28 years in a coma and only had a few months of warring identities without that same sense of being powerless.

 

I don't recall any sense of control freakishness in the season one-two fairybacks, and didn't she even learn the lesson about relaxing and enjoying life as it comes during the Medusa fairyback, which came immediately before the events in this arc?

[YaddaYadda]

This is probably something that we will have to agree to disagree on.  Snow may not have started out as a control freak, but by the time her honeymoon rolled around?  She manipulated David into going to the Summer Palace so that she could after Medusa to get rid of Regina.  And yes, it's probably because she lost control over her life when she was a bandit and so on.  And 28 years of curse, she's not the only one who was victim of that.  Everyone had their free will taken from them, I mean look at how douchy David was.  Snow lived through Regina's tyranny for years, there was no way she was having a kid like that.  She had the opportunity to take care of Regina, she didn't.  She's presented with the opportunity take care of her daughter's "evilness", she takes it.  Season 3 and this season?  Snow for me is a control freak.  That's the way I see her.

[Rumsy4]

...and didn't she even learn the lesson about relaxing and enjoying life as it comes during the Medusa fairyback, which came immediately before the events in this arc?

 

And promptly forgot it the moment they came back from their honeymoon (and lbr, for plot!reasons). 

 

Snow lived through Regina's tyranny for years, there was no way she was having a kid like that.  ...  She's presented with the opportunity take care of her daughter's "evilness", she takes it.

 

That part does seem in character for Snow. It also goes with her stupid Diner Speech, and her reluctance to let Regina take the Lost Boy's heart in Neverland. What isn't in character, is her condemning another child (dragon baby or not) to darkness in order to ensure her child's goodness. David's comment that Hook might be turned by Ursula because he had gone to Dark Places in the past seems absurdly hypocritical in this light. He and Snow had literally condemned an innocent child to darkness by choice, and then decided to be better people from then on (even though they made zero effort to locate and rescue Mal's baby). But when someone else makes an effort to pull away from bad choices they made it the past, he doesn't trust them to stick to it. God, this show really has destroyed Snowing!

Edited March 31, 2015 by Rumsy4

[stealinghome]

That's when the rest of my family tuned out, too. I keep trying to tell them that the Neverland arc is actually a huge improvement, but they reached the point where they just don't care about the storylines anymore and were so confused about 2B that they're afraid to jump back in again. I don't necessarily blame them.

The sad thing is, I think I would feel a little duplicitous recommending 3A to people, because I'd have to add in the following disclaimer: "But then you have to know that 3B is pretty bad. But then it picks up again for 4A, 4A is totally worth watching! But then current indications are that you'd have to skip 4B...."

 

Honestly, it's enough to make me wish that they would bring the Frozen characters on full-time. It's clear at this point that 4A benefited immensely from The Mouse's oversight, because the last two half-seasons from the normal writers have been awful and far beyond shark-jumpingly bad. So I wish that we had the Frozen level of oversight all the time to force the writers to do better. (And that's honestly what pisses me off the most. They obviously have the ability to do better. So at this point, all I can assume is that they really can't be bothered to do better.)

[HoodlumSheep]

The sad thing is, I think I would feel a little duplicitous recommending 3A to people, because I'd have to add in the following disclaimer: "But then you have to know that 3B is pretty bad. But then it picks up again for 4A, 4A is totally worth watching! But then current indications are that you'd have to skip 4B...."

^ All of this. Although at the rate 4b is going, 3b is becoming less and less horrible in comparison (at least in my opinion). Zelena was fun to watch despite her storyline (it's fun to watch the actress have so much fun playing her). The concepts of 3b were interesting to a certain degree, Snowing wasn't completely destroyed, and the finale acted as a saving grace of sorts. Yeah, there were a lot of things wrong with 3b too, but at least it was focused on telling a more cohesive storyline, rather than 3(?).

The bottom line is, if I was forced to rewatch 3b or 4b in all it's entirety, I'd pick 3b.

[Shanna Marie]

At least in 3B, it kind of made sense. Yeah, Zelena's plan was insane, but everyone said it was insane. We weren't being presented with an absolutely insane plan, then told that it was the best plan ever, then shown how the premise of the plan was totally inaccurate, then told that carrying out the plan counted as a crime against a sacred calling, all while everyone acted like it would be a tragedy if something kept the plan from working.

[YaddaYadda]

The season finale of 3B made everything so much more bearable.  3B was horrible until we hit the last two hours of the season.  So it seems that I'm willing to forgive a lot of they give me a good season finale.  The last two hours made me look so very forward to season 4, I wanted Summer to end and I mean I never want Summer to end because I hate Winter so much.

 

I think the reason 3B was terrible and 4B is iffy at best is because they're ready to tell the season finale.  It's like they sort of build towards it and then they get bored and are all about the gratification of the finale.  Meanwhile, the middle sort of gets lost.  4A also had its ups and downs, and 411 could have saved the whole first half for me, but it didn't and I'm still angry, though I think it's because the stuff I was expecting to happen in 411 is going to happen in 422 where I'll be like oh finally, can we get through the 3 month hiatus NOW?

[Mathius]

With all this talk of ratings, I've looked at the most dramatic drops this show has had in the past and tried to figure out the reasons for each one. They are:

- After "Fruit of the Poisonous Tree" (Likely because there was a two-week hiatus afterward, and people forgot to tune in live when it came back with "Skin Deep", which ironically became one of the most praised S1 episodes among fans.)

- After "Dreamy" (Likely because the episode sucked, or at least its fairyback did, and it was blatantly false-advertised two weeks prior as being an episode about Kathryn's disappearance and trying to find out who made her disappear. In reality, this was only dealt with in about three or four scenes.)

- After "Broken" (Likely because the Philip/Aurora/Mulan thing and throwing Emma and Snow into the Enchanted Forest so soon were controversial.)

- After "Tallahassee" (Likely because of either Neal's immediate unpopularity or because the promo for "Child of the Moon" did not interest people.)

- After "The Cricket Game", "The Outsider" & "In The Name of the Brother" (THE drop, the one the show never recovered from. I shouldn't even have to state the likely reasons for this three-strike affair.)

- After "Ariel" (Similar to "Tallahassee", it could either be because of the Emma/Neal factor in the episode itself or because of the underwhelming promo for the next episode, in this case "Dark Hollow".)

- After "The Jolly Roger" (This one isn't even a likely case, it's because the next episode was on Easter, a move ABC isn't repeating this time. The episode happened to be "Bleeding Through", so the people who tuned out for the holiday were dodging a bullet.)

- After "The Apprentice" (Likely because of the promo for "Breaking Glass", with Regina screaming to Emma "You ruined my life!" That the numbers went right back up to how they were before when "Family Business" aired makes this even more likely: people didn't want to sit through a confirmed Woegina whine-fest.)

- After "The Snow Queen" & "Smash the Mirror" (Likely because of either Frozen-fatigue or, my preferred theory, the grossness of Outlaw Queen and their adulterous crypt sex.)

- After "Unforgiven" (Likely because the episode sucked. And the numbers are still going down even now...)

Although at the rate 4b is going, 3b is becoming less and less horrible in comparison (at least in my opinion). Zelena was fun to watch despite her storyline (it's fun to watch the actress have so much fun playing her). The concepts of 3b were interesting to a certain degree, Snowing wasn't completely destroyed, and the finale acted as a saving grace of sorts. Yeah, there were a lot of things wrong with 3b too, but at least it was focused on telling a more cohesive storyline, rather than 3(?).

The bottom line is, if I was forced to rewatch 3b or 4b in all it's entirety, I'd pick 3b.

Agreed. Between 2B, 3B, and 4B, 3B is definitely the best of them. Edited March 31, 2015 by Mathius

[Zuleikha]

The bottom line is, if I was forced to rewatch 3b or 4b in all it's entirety, I'd pick 3b.

You don't want to wait to see how the rest of 4B goes?

 

I liked 3b (as did a lot of other people; there are many pockets of fandom that are excited for Zelena's return and ratings held steady, so there's no uniform opinion that 3b was crap), and I'm okay with 4b. But I do think 4b is suffering from the same problem that 3b did, which is way too much story to tell in the time available. This is resulting in an unfocused feeling instead of an action-packed, exciting woooah-so-much-going-on feeling. With 3b, I think both Zelena/Mystery of the Curse 2.0 and the Missing Year had enough story to hold an entire intertwined season but when they were both crammed together into a single half season, neither could be developed in any satisfying way.

 

With 4b, the Queens of Darkness are taking so much time away from the Author that again both QoD and Author are incoherent. The QoD needed to be a villainous trio on their own either first or simply not connected to the Author stuff, and the Author should have been a mad caper with Regina/Emma/Snowing racing against Rumple to unravel clues and find the Author. We need more time for real conversations in which the characters talk about what the Author and the book may mean for their lives and their choices.

 

What was so nice about 3a, to me, was that Neverland forced the show to focus. I like the format of half-season arcs, but I wish they would be more of a Part 1/Part 2 style so that the show could slow down and tell the story properly.

[YaddaYadda]

This has been the show's problem for a while though.  They cram too much into their half seasons.  We don't need to have in this season's case 5 villains.  The QoD, plus Ingrid, plus our big Rumple.  I get what the QoD's point is.  I think they're about villains getting their happy endings without the need of the Author, which is fine or whatever, but we don't need all these villains running about town.

 

They cram too much, then they get bored.  I'm okay personally with a whole season arc with one villain.  Season 1 did it.  It was Emma vs Regina and it worked just fine.  Now it can be everyone else vs new villain with people living their lives in between and having conversations.  I don't understand why this show thinks that conversations are bad. 

[KingOfHearts]

The QoD are misplaced in the story, I believe. They really don't need to be a singular unit to be effective. In my opinion, putting them all into one team blurs them and takes away weight from each one. They don't strengthen each other like a group should do. They fit the "gray secondary character" role much better than being Big Bads. Ursula was fine for a one-off, Cruella is just fun for the snark, and Maleficent's plot with Lily is a nice story on its own. Rumple is the real mastermind here pulling all the strings. He only needed the QoD to get across the town line, but now that he's in Storybrooke with the dagger he's pretty much unstoppable.

 

The Queens of Darkness help the show feel more like the ensemble cast setup it should be, but labeling them as three major villains working together is a miss. Just let them be independent personas with their own stories with some interaction here and there. They didn't all need to be introduced at once.

Edited March 31, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Mathius]

What was so nice about 3a, to me, was that Neverland forced the show to focus.

Agreed. It's also why 3A was the most satisfying half-season, IMO.

I like the format of half-season arcs, but I wish they would be more of a Part 1/Part 2 style so that the show could slow down and tell the story properly.

The sad thing is that they seem to be TRYING to do this with Season 4, since there's much more of a connection between 4A and 4B than there was between 3A and 3B. Unfortunately, not only are they still needlessly overcluttering the story in the B half, but they've chosen the worst possible thread to connect the half-seasons with (the Author plot.)

[RadioGirl27]

We don't need to have in this season's case 5 villains. The QoD, plus Ingrid, plus our big Rumple.

Plus Zelena and the Author (he doesn't look very heroic). And who knows what else.

The QoD weren't necessary for the story, specially Ursula and Cruella. I'm sure they decided to include them because they were looking for some big names after Frozen.

[OnceUponAJen]

The cluttered feeling this season was never so obvious to me as in the mid S4 finale. There was so much to wrap up, that none of it was given the attention that the build up might have suggested (hello Hook's heart). The Robin/Regina angst was drawn out to an almost painful degree, and given way too much time to the detriment of other plot lines that needed resolving. I wish they had made that the 2 hour episode.

Three villains plus the author

plus Zelena

feels way too busy for a half-season. I'm always willing to withhold judgement until I've seen the finished product, but I would really like it to slow down and focus on characters and relationships a bit more. Not just ships, but families and friendships too.

[Camera One]

 

 

Tennisgurl, ON 31 MAR 2015 - 3:24 PM, SAID:

Why the writers want to keep making Snow and Charming (especially Snow) out to be awful makes no sense to be.

 

Because they're passionate about showing that the heroes/villains dynamic is artificial.  They're just not good at it.  Since Snow and Charming are the most traditionally heroic characters on the show, as well as characters who are supposed to be featured in the B sections, it makes sense to make them secret villains so that we can see that everyone is bad, but some people just get blamed for it.

 

Villains aren't villains, and heroes just get better press.  (Blech.)

 

Bringing this over from the Writers' Thread.

 

And with this latest episode, they have succeeded.  Snow and Charming stole an innocent baby, ignored the pleas of a weeping mother, and filled the newborn with darkness.  Snow and Charming, like Regina, are reforming villains.  But look at the injustice.  Why can Snow and Charming commit such an unforgivable act, yet still get a happy ending?  While Regina tries SO hard, and Rumple sacrificed his life, and they don't get the easy pass to hero-dom that Snowing gets handed.  In fact, from what we've seen, A&E can argue that Regina is more sincere at redemption than Snow and Charming, who haven't apologized to Maleficent or made up for what they have done, consistently attempted to hide their horrible deed by not owning up to it, and worst of all, they tried to KILL the mother whose baby they stole (with the plan to dump Maleficent's ashes in "Unforgiven").

Edited April 1, 2015 by Camera One

[Dani-Ellie]

I still think there's a difference between a dragon and a person, and make no mistake, they thought there was a baby dragon in that egg. Snow even says "Do you think her dragon offspring will be any different?" It may or may not have been naive to believe so, but the fact remains, that was what they believed. (I still maintain that unless Snow and Charming had witnessed -- or even heard of -- a human baby emerging from a dragon egg, why would they expect a human baby to emerge from a dragon egg? Just because the mother can shapeshift? Who says that's a hereditary thing? There's a lot of assumption going on again based on the 100% knowledge we have as the audience that does not necessarily transfer to the characters.) Snow and Charming never intended to harm a human baby. Regina sent her guard in to the castle with full intent on killing a human baby. Not to mention all those other people she killed and all those children she sent to their deaths. As far as I'm concerned, Snow and Charming are nowhere near Regina level.

[Mari]

 Regina sent her guard in to the castle with full intent on killing a human baby. Not to mention all those other people she killed and all those children she sent to their deaths. As far as I'm concerned, Snow and Charming are nowhere near Regina level.

Oh, heavens, no.

 

And I don't care what Espensen tweeted--it still looked to me like the Charmings were given an extra nudge by the Author/Peddler.

[Zuleikha]

Snow and Charming never intended to harm a human baby.

I'm not convinced they did. Lily hatched from an egg. Maleficent's lived a long time, doesn't die in normal ways, and shapeshifts. I'm not assuming either Maleficent or Lily are human. But I don't see a good reason for Snowing to assume that Maleficent's offspring would be an animal rather than a sentient being. Fairies, dwarves, and giants aren't human. That doesn't make it okay to kill them.

 

If a non-human-level intelligent animal would have worked for the spell, Snowing should have used a chicken egg or a mammal baby. They shouldn't have stolen Maleficent's child. I don't think that makes them equivalent to Rumple or Regina or Maleficent in terms of their morality or what they've done, but I think it does disqualify them from fairy-tale herodom and certainly from having pure hearts.

[Dani-Ellie]

I'm not arguing that what Snow and Charming did was right by any stretch of the imagination, because it wasn't at all. But I am seeing a lot of assumption that obviously the being in the egg was human when I don't see at all why that should be obvious because even in the Enchanted Forest, are human babies hatched from dragon eggs all the time? If they are, then okay. If they're not ... that would be the magical equivalent of me expecting a human baby to hatch from an ostrich egg.

 

Fairies, dwarves, and giants aren't human. That doesn't make it okay to kill them.

 

I never said it was, nor was Snow and Charming's intent to kill, regardless of what was in that egg.

[Camera One]

They probably killed that unicorn after touching it.  Season 7 reveal.

[Writing Wrongs]

So do you guys think the writing/story problems started when they began splitting the season's arcs?

[Mathius]

So do you guys think the writing/story problems started when they began splitting the season's arcs?

Hell no, since while Season 2 inadvertently ended up being something of a split season, it technically wasn't, yet that is where the writing problems began. Plus there was significant improvement in the first half-season they did (3A), so it's not like that format automatically means it has to be bad.

[KingOfHearts]

 

So do you guys think the writing/story problems started when they began splitting the season's arcs?

I agree with Mathius that it definitely started in S2, especially in 2B. While the half-season arcs can be too predictable, 2B was at the other extreme where it went all over the place. Sometimes the half-season arc works, like in 3A, while it doesn't in others like 3B. Cora and the Missing Year both could have easily been stretched out over 22 episodes, but I don't think Neverland or Frozen could last that long without getting incredibly boring.

 

 

The act itself was legitimately horrible, so I have to give the show props for that.

See, this confuses me. We get a legitimately horrible act that's never mentioned or remembered for over 30 years, but Regina's reign of tyranny that spawned the whole series' premise stems from a little child's blissful mistake. If the writers are capable of giving Snow an evil act for the purpose of making her look bad, why didn't they do that for her rivalry with Regina?

Edited April 1, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[scarynikki12]

I agree that the Charmings expected a dragon to hatch from that egg, and not just because Snow referred to it as such, but because Mal was in dragon form when they entered the cave to take it.  I think they might have considered the possibility of it being human if Mal had been in that form when they initially encountered her.  The egg was also in a nest, which is what animals do to protect the pre-born.  If Mal had placed it in a crib, I think it might have occurred to them that it could be born with shifting abilities. 

 

The act itself was legitimately horrible, so I have to give the show props for that.  I thought we'd get a scene where Snow would trip and knock the egg into a portal bound for the Land Without Magic and take on the blame of an unforeseen accident much like she does with Daniel's murder.  I also agree that it qualifies as a bad retcon and I wish the show would stop doing this. 

 

Since I'm me, I was thinking again about changes I'd have made in season 2.  I've already written about my desire for Regina and Rumpel to not get their magic back so fast and I stand by that.  What was on my mind this time was what could have been done to drive home that the other characters intended to hold both accountable for their crimes.  Regina thinks she has her magic and her first act is to try and burn the people outside her front door.  Yes, they were an angry mob but David, Snow and Emma (and maybe Henry, I can't remember) were there too and would have burned up as well.  Now, I'm not suggesting Regina would have been upset if she'd burned them.  No, she'd have cheered and then thrown the party to end all parties to celebrate the deaths of Snow and Emma.  What bothers me is that, mere seconds after she tries this, Snow, David and Emma jump in between her and the people to stop them from hurting her.  Emma I get.  She was raised in this world, worked alongside law enforcement and did time herself.  Her view of law and order would be to capture and imprison with an option for rehabilitation if the person in question pursues it.  Snow and David, though, come from a world where executions are regular practice and they'd just been un-Cursed after 28 years.  And their reactions to coming back to themselves made it clear that they'd felt every bit of those 28 years (hence all the reunions).  Factor in their memories as David Nolan and Mary Margaret, who was slut shamed and framed for murder by Regina, and their first instinct should have been to at least call for Regina's execution.  This was the first hint that Snow would become a complete doormat where Regina was concerned which is why it played out this way but it still grates. 

 

Same with Rumpel.  He manipulated and destroyed the lives of the entire town, even if the extent of their interactions was limited to being subjected to the Curse he created.  Keep him from getting his magic back and he, too, can be arrested.  I feel like 2A would have been more interesting if they'd spent their time locked up in the jail, pissed as hell for not having their magic.  There are many other ways Emma and Snow could have ended up in the Enchanted Forest without letting Regina out of the cell she'd occupied for all of five minutes and then sending her home without trial.  I think that not seeing either villain actually be punished hurt them in the long run.  At the time I think they were planning to push for Rumpel's redemption alongside Regina's (thankfully, Robert shot down that plan and I wish Lana would do the same as the issues I have with Regina would actually go away if she were revealed to still be evil but playing a long con in order to ultimately destroy Snow like she obvious still wants to-see burning the bird picture rather than returning it).  One way to satisfy viewers that the villain's crimes are taken seriously is to lock them up.  Letting them roam free while the townspeople make mean faces isn't going to cut it, especially if they are given their powers back.  They could still agree to help find a way for Emma and Snow to return and the deal would be that good behavior would be taken into account at their impending trials (I fantasize about Regina and Rumpel standing trial for their crimes but it would be harder for the show to justify what they've done).  Cora coming to town could be what gets them out of jail if they agreed to work with the Charmings to stop her.  Then Regina could defect like we saw and a lot of the 3B stuff could still happen (provided that Snow not feel guilty about saving her family and the town; she can regret the method she had to use but not the death itself and I think the show failed if that's what it was aiming for).

 

I also think that the show missed a major opportunity by not having Regina return any of the hearts in the vault.  If all those hearts are still brightly beating then, presumably, the bodies they come from are still alive and walking around.  If the show wants to convince me that Regina is truly on the path to redemption (I firmly follow the Angel path with regard to redemption: seek it, desire it, but understand that you may never achieve it and be ok with that reality, so I refuse to believe that she's found it even a little), then we need to see her return those hearts.  That would have been a way better use of this season than Regina coming up with the Author plot based on nothing.  That could have been set up and pursued for season 5.  If they wanted to explore how happy endings are found, great, but have Regina wonder if she'll ever find it after she's actually done truly good deeds like returning hearts, admitting her many crimes and understanding why her actions were wrong.  Right now those hearts are still in the vault, she doesn't want her crimes voiced, and there's still no indication that she gets why it was wrong of her to target Snow, cast the Curse, and murder all those people. 

 

I wish Rumpel hadn't reconciled with Neal as well.  The only thing I liked about Neal was how over his father's bullshit he was.  He didn't want to see him, he didn't want to forgive him and he didn't want to repair the relationship.  It would have been great to see Rumpel either realize just how massively he screwed up by becoming the Dark One or to just go balls out Biggest Bad and include Neal among his intended targets.  He's supposed to be the Biggest Bad on the show and he comes across as so...lame these days.

[Rumsy4]

I'm not arguing that what Snow and Charming did was right by any stretch of the imagination, because it wasn't at all. But I am seeing a lot of assumption that obviously the being in the egg was human when I don't see at all why that should be obvious because even in the Enchanted Forest, are human babies hatched from dragon eggs all the time? If they are, then okay. If they're not ... that would be the magical equivalent of me expecting a human baby to hatch from an ostrich egg.

 

If Snow had stolen an egg from an Ostrich, and it had hatched a human, then I would agree with that line of argument. In a land where Dwarfs hatch from eggs, and where the egg's mother has repeatedly shape-shifted before their very eyes, they had to have been practically lying to themselves to believe the egg was going to hatch a mere dragon. Lbr, Snow and Charming believed the egg would hatch a dragon because they wanted to believe it. Mal was practically begging for Snow to spare her child. I thought it was cruel of Regina to put a Sleeping Curse on an poor innocent horse just because it belonged to Snow. The same way, I don't think was it okay for Snow to steal away and curse an unborn dragon baby with extra darkness just because it was Mal's child, and therefore, according to Snow, would grow up to be a monster like its mother. And this, while she was also contrarily believing that the egg baby was a blank slate into which they could dump their own child's darkness. Moreover, Snow and Charming did nothing to undo their mistake, and never thought or spoke of this until the threat of of exposure. This does not make them as bad as Regina, Rumple, or even Mal, but it has tarnished their image for good. It was a step too far.

[Camera One]

Moreover, Snow and Charming did nothing to undo their mistake, and never thought or spoke of this until the threat of of exposure. This does not make them as bad as Regina, Rumple, or even Mal, but it has tarnished their image for good.

 

Which is exactly what they intended and wanted to do.  

[KingOfHearts]

I want to know why Maleficent didn't go torch Snowing's castle after this happened. Did she just sit around in her goth suit again until the curse came? How did Rumple know Ursula and Cruella were in the Land Without Magic? It's ironic that despite all the reveals, Best Laid Plans left more questions than answers, more than any episode has in a long time.

Edited April 1, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

Which is exactly what they intended and wanted to do.

If A&E had a grain of self-awareness, they would realize that this will turn out a hollow victory. Destroying their own wonderful creations past recognition is nothing to be proud of. Rowling did a wonderful job of deconstructing Dumbledore over the course of the seven books, without destroying him as a multi-dimensional character. That's one great example of how to blur the lines between a hero and a villain. What was done to Snowing--was not. :-p

[KingOfHearts]

If A&E had a grain of self-awareness, they would realize that this will turn out a hollow victory. Destroying their own wonderful creations past recognition is nothing to be proud of. Rowling did a wonderful job of deconstructing Dumbledore over the course of the seven books, without destroying him as a multi-dimensional character. That's one great example of how to blur the lines between a hero and a villain. What was done to Snowing--was not. :-p

In all of A&E's writing there's the "OMG factor". In this particular case it was answering the question, "Wouldn't it be cool if Snow and Charming did a horrible act to a so-called villain to show they're not as good as we all think they are?" We can't just blur lines. We have to make it a big, dramatic atrocity to drive home how villainous they truly are. As the Peddler says, "it makes for a better story".

[Camera One]

Exactly.  This is just one step further than what they did for 3B, which was have Snow be the "surprise" person to enact the Darkest Curse of all time.  And now in this half-season, they have the added motivation of trying to prove to the viewer that heroes are not that different from villains.  Why not go a step further and say the heroes *are* villains.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

They've taken it to a place where I should start questioning who I should be rooting for. I mean, just because someone doesn't like Regina or Snow or Rumpel or anyone else, it seems like they might be in the right. Who's to say Snow didn't call their innocent child a monster and then banish her to a different world? Shouldn't they be allowed to exact justice? Maleficent is a horrible person. We know that because we've seen her kill a bunch of random people, but really, shouldn't Snowing be punished? Who gets to make this decision anyway? 

 

Emma is the only one who has been directly punished for her crimes. Not just karmic retribution but actual justice. She has excuses too, but I've never seen her try to justify herself like every other character on this show. And Emma's crimes are the least of anyone's. Having Snowing commit a heinous crime as they did in "Best Laid Plans" really does ruin the show. Not because it creates moral ambiguity, but because it leaves me questioning why I should root for any of these people to get a happy ending. How many lives have been destroyed that we didn't see? How many others are out there unknowing that they deserved so much more? It's really gross.

[Serena]

See, this confuses me. We get a legitimately horrible act that's never mentioned or remembered for over 30 years, but Regina's reign of tyranny that spawned the whole series' premise stems from a little child's blissful mistake. If the writers are capable of giving Snow an evil act for the purpose of making her look bad, why didn't they do that for her rivalry with Regina?

Because it was still S1, and their Regina Permaboner hadn't taken full effect yet. Rest assured, if they had been writing it now, Snow would have murdered Daniel herself and laughed over his corpse.

[Dani-Ellie]

If Snow had stolen an egg from an Ostrich, and it had hatched a human, then I would agree with that line of argument. In a land where Dwarfs hatch from eggs, and where the egg's mother has repeatedly shape-shifted before their very eyes, they had to have been practically lying to themselves to believe the egg was going to hatch a mere dragon.

 

No, but Snow stole an egg from a dragon and it hatched a human. To me, that's just as crazy as an ostrich egg hatching a human simply because humans don't hatch from eggs.

 

As noted above, Dwarfs aren't human. They're Dwarfs. They do hatch from eggs fully grown. They have no mothers. That's not human. We've seen countless times on this show that magic is not hereditary. Snow and Charming and, if Ingrid can be believed, baby Neal all don't have magic but Emma does. Henry does not. Zelena had powers from babyhood but Regina and Cora needed to be taught. I get that they were playing with already-formed Disney properties here, but Elsa has magic while Anna does not and as far as I know, neither do their parents. Ingrid had magic while her two sisters did not. The whole reason Ingrid needed to wait for Emma to complete her magical sister trifecta was because innate magical abilities are rare. Just because the mother can shapeshift does not automatically mean the offspring can, too.

 

We come into this knowing Maleficent lost a child. I'm reasonably sure most everyone figured out the child was Lily. But for Snow and Charming, a dragon laid an egg, ergo Maleficent's "child" was a baby dragon. Obviously there was a chance the being in the egg was a human baby, because it was, but as far as I'm concerned, it was so outside the realm of possibility that I don't fault Snow and Charming for not thinking of it.

 

I thought it was cruel of Regina to put a Sleeping Curse on an poor innocent horse just because it belonged to Snow. The same way, I don't think was it okay for Snow to steal away and curse an unborn dragon baby with extra darkness just because it was Mal's child, and therefore, according to Snow, would grow up to be a monster like its mother.

 

I was never arguing that it was. It was still wrong whichever way you slice it. All I'm saying is that their intent was not to harm a human baby, nor was it their intent to separate a family.

[Rumsy4]

No, but Snow stole an egg from a dragon and it hatched a human. To me, that's just as crazy as an ostrich egg hatching a human simply because humans don't hatch from eggs.

 

The analogy still doesn't work. To make a true parallel, the Ostrich needs to be a known shapeshifter. If Snowing had stolen an egg from the nest of a dragon that was just known to be a dragon, and the egg had hatched a human, then I would absolve them off all shadiness. But that was not the case.

 

As noted above, Dwarfs aren't human. They're Dwarfs. They do hatch from eggs fully grown. They have no mothers. That's not human.

 

I'm not sure I see the point. The dwarf is still a sentient being, even if a different race than a human. We don't know if Mal is fully human either. She could be a human shapeshifter, or a unique dragon/human species. Would Snow have stolen the egg of a bird she spoke to, and cursed it with Darkness (even though the bird was not sentient)? Not from what we've seen of her. Why did she think it was okay to steal the egg of a sentient being? Because she dehumanized Mal. Snow may not have stolen the egg thinking it was human/sentient, but she stole the child of a sentient being. She discounted the possibility of the child being sentient as well. For Snowing to have believed the egg would only hatch a dragon was either wilful deception, or blind prejudice that a person like Mal could only hatch a monster, or both. It shows up Snowing as bigoted and self-righteous people.

 

Snowing have been shown to be flawed humans over the course of the show--with prejudices and blind spots, but also capable of goodness and kindness. However, this incident makes them look like smug hypocrites. Even after they realize their mistake, their only focus is on how to reclaim their own goodness. There is no effort to locate the child they condemned to darkness, and unwittingly got banished to another world. At the end of the day, they still were sharp enough to not want the cursed baby back in their realm. Is this the same Snow who gave a 1001 chances to Regina, and would continue to do so for the rest of her life, even at the risk of her subjects, and her child and grandchild? Or was all her compassion to Regina merely a by-product of guilt, and Snow is not capable of true kindness and empathy towards anyone who doesn't fit with her ideas of good and evil? 

[Curio]

No, but Snow stole an egg from a dragon and it hatched a human. To me, that's just as crazy as an ostrich egg hatching a human simply because humans don't hatch from eggs.

 

With all this talk about Snow and Charming expecting the egg to hatch as a dragon, it just opens up another question - why the hell did they choose a dragon egg for this spell? If we're to believe Snow and Charming chose this vessel because it's just an animal/not human, why not choose an animal that isn't going to grow into a huge ferocious beast some day? Why couldn't they have roamed the forest and found a baby bird egg or a butterfly cocoon? Hell, find an ant colony or something. You'd think they would much rather deal with an evil butterfly than an evil dragon. Or was the whole point of the writers pointing out how cold it was in the Enchanted Forest a sign that it wasn't spring yet; and therefore, there weren't any other animals they could have stolen from?

[HoodlumSheep]

With all this talk about Snow and Charming expecting the egg to hatch as a dragon, it just opens up another question - why the hell did they choose a dragon egg for this spell? If we're to believe Snow and Charming chose this vessel because it's just an animal/not human, why not choose an animal that isn't going to grow into a huge ferocious beast some day? Why couldn't they have roamed the forest and found a baby bird egg or a butterfly cocoon? Hell, find an ant colony or something. You'd think they would much rather deal with an evil butterfly than an evil dragon. Or was the whole point of the writers pointing out how cold it was in the Enchanted Forest a sign that it wasn't spring yet; and therefore, there weren't any other animals they could have stolen from?

Probably because of the dragons=bad/evil creatures mentality. They're seen as ferocious beasts, so I'd imagine that they didn't think adding even more evilness to an already "evil" beast would necessarily be a bad thing compared to finding a random "innocent" creature like a tweety bird and making it absorb all the evilness.

Clearly the Charmings have never seen HTTYD and the idea that dragons are misunderstood creatures.

[Rumsy4]

Probably because of the dragons=bad/evil creatures mentality. They're seen as ferocious beasts, so I'd imagine that they didn't think adding even more evilness to an already "evil" beast would necessarily be a bad thing compared to finding a random "innocent" creature like a tweety bird and making it absorb all the evilness.

But the egg was also supposed to be a blank slate. Otherwise the spell wouldn't work. So, Snowing need to have believed two contradictory things to explain their actions. The simplest explanation seems to be that Snowing devalued the egg!baby's potential for goodness because its mother was Mal. But they also didn't feel condident that their own child would grow up to be a "hero". Asinine writing is real the problem.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Writing Wrongs]

So did Mal get knocked up by a person or a dragon?

[jhlipton]

With 4b, the Queens of Darkness are taking so much time away from the Author that again both QoD and Author are incoherent. 

 

 

I'd say that's backwards.  The asinine Author story is taking away time that could have been used on the QoDs

[Souris]

Frankly, IMO they're both taking away time that could have been using for something way more interesting. Like Henry watching paint dry.

[Zuleikha]

It's all what you prefer. I think the Author story could have been exciting and powerful, delving into the fundamental mythology of the show. The Author story logically affects the core characters and, properly executed, would force them to question their beliefs and their lives. It obviously hasn't been properly executed, but I will always be sad for what could have been.

 

The QoDs, by contrast, are a trio that exist only due to write contrivance. Ursula had no connection to anyone other than Hook and her story was essentially told in a one-off episode. Cruella, we don't know, but given how she's nothing more than comic relief at this point, she'll be like Ursula. She'll have a one-off episode that may be good, but she won't be strongly connected to the core characters. Maleficent does have strong connections to Snow, Charming, and Regina, but she doesn't need Ursula or Cruella to develop them. In a way, they took time away from her since the show used Ursula/Cruella to weaken reviving Maleficent (and didn't do a great job providing a reason for Ursula/Cruella or Ursula/Cruella/Maleficent to work with Rumple given how untrustworthy Rumple is and what we were shown of their past acrimonious relationship). I do think that Maleficent, herself, could potentially have been a standalone villain in a modified version of the plot where she was revived earlier and her complex friendship with Regina was used as well as the full bizarreness of her past interactions with Charming and Rumple (Rumple used Charming to force a true love potion down Maleficent's throat so that he could smuggle it into Storybrooke... that's really WEIRD! What does Maleficent think about that and why is she so blase about working with Rumple?). But none of that has anything to do with Cruella and Ursula. So I think the QoDs were just a bad concept. 

[KAOS Agent]

The author storyline doesn't have enough meat on it to last a whole half season and they've somehow tried to stretch it into a full season arc which is why we get Henry/Regina staring at a book episode after episode after episode. The Queens of Darkness are irrelevant to anything, but are required filler to create storylines that allow for the author plot to be dragged out until the finale where author shenanigans will surely abound. What happens and how is unknown, but it's pretty clear that's where they're going with this. Rumpel will get the quill or he'll make a deal with the author or Emma goes dark and becomes the author or the author will do something on his own, but ultimately they have about three episodes worth of story for the author history/mythology and then two hours of epic craziness where the world is turned upside down in an AU of villains winning or whatever which leaves six episodes where something else needs to happen. Cue the Queens of Darkness.

 

Having Rumpel and his posse after the author is also the only thing that makes it necessary for everyone else to speed things along. Without them, it wouldn't be imperative to get things done now - other than Regina's impatience at not getting instant gratification. That we're now getting an episode with Robin Hood and freaking Zelena just shows that even having eleven million villains still wasn't enough to fill a half season's worth of story. People are confused/annoyed/disinterested because there is no coherent story. It's just like they put a bunch of Disney villains pictures on the wall and threw darts to select who to feature. Cruella is fun, but why she's wearing a cocktail dress and how she fits in the Enchanted Forest is beyond me. Ursula was pointless other than the fact that she rescued the Jolly Roger from spending eternity in a bottle. Maleficent had all kinds of potential, but now despite cursing/killing countless innocent people, she's presented as just a sad, sad woman whose baby was stolen by the evil Charmings. What the hell kind of story are they telling here? Why should I even care? 

[Zuleikha]

The author storyline doesn't have enough meat on it to last a whole half season and they've somehow tried to stretch it into a full season arc which is why we get Henry/Regina staring at a book episode after episode after episode.

 

But that's because it was executed poorly. If it had been done caper style as someone suggested, it would have enough meat to last. Team Mongoose races against Rumple. Shake up the formula by having Rumple trick them out of something they've already found and them need to regain it. The Ursula one-off (and probably the Cruella one off) could even still be part of this. Have it all build to whatever it's going to build to, but with a real understanding of how/why the author uses the books to regulate the worlds, what it means to be a hero/villain, and what it means to have a happy ending. 

 

4A also didn't need to have so much Henry/Regina starting at the book (although I do think that's exaggerated). It could have had them trying to find out whether being a villain in the book actually meant she'd never get a happy ending and then conclude with an actual discovery of the Author.