A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[KAOS Agent]

I wonder if Belle figured out that Rumpel killed Zelena. Or is that going to be another one of those "she doesn't know but if she did, she'd be upset" things the showrunners are so fond of. It won't ever be brought up that he murdered yet another defenseless woman.

 

I watched "Family Business" last night. Well I mostly fast forwarded it watching only the relevant Belle parts and the storming of the evil ice cream truck, but anyway I noticed that they were very careful about not having Anna say Rumpel's name. However, once Belle got home she was talking with her father about how she'd been researching this evil sorcerer she'd heard about and how she thought he could help with the ogre problem. Her father says he knows who he is and then Belle calls him by his name. This whole thing implied that Belle's interest was piqued by Anna and on her trip home, she looked into this guy. This means that Belle knew all along that Rumpel had met Anna which makes the entire season's "suspense" about when/if Belle would discover Rumpel's deception really stupid. She should have known instantly that he was lying. Especially since what happened to Anna was a major source of guilt for her and played into her going with Rumpel in "Skin Deep".

[Shanna Marie]

Did Belle even need to find the gauntlet to know that Rumple chose power over her? He put a stop on a True Love's Kiss because he didn't want to break the curse that gave him power, and they've kissed a lot since then without his curse being broken, including at their wedding after he'd been brought back from the dead and then freed from Zelena's control. If that wasn't one big True Love's Kiss, then it would be a pretty bad sign, I'd think. She's had plenty of proof that he's choosing power over really opening himself up to love.

 

If he'd been really smart, he wouldn't have just handed over the dagger. He'd have faked a TLK and pretended to be powerless. In Storybrooke without the sparkly imp makeup, how would anyone be able to tell? He could have used his magic to create the TLK effect, then started leaning on his cane like he really needed it. And that way he could have played helpless and innocent when anyone came to him for magical help. "Sorry, Dearie, that's not me anymore. My dear wife freed me from the curse that made me the Dark One. I'm just an ordinary shopkeeper now." Meanwhile, when no one was looking, he could have used power freely, and Hook could still have seen through him because if Hook figured out that he'd never hand over the real dagger, he could have figured out that he'd never love anyone more than he loved power and therefore a True Love's Kiss was highly unlikely.

[KingOfHearts]

I finally watched the deleted scene from 4x08 with Elsa talking to Snow. This seemed like such a critical scene that really spoke what the characters were thinking, plus it gave a little much-needed depth to the issues with Emma's parents and taking away her magic. I also liked the comparison it drew with Snowing and Elsa's parents. It made a boatload of sense when I began to consider it. This scene was so much more meaningful than Robin and Will's at the diner.

[KAOS Agent]

How hard could it have been to remove one or two of the eleven million scenes of Emma staring at the Door of Doom and replace it with that deleted scene? Or you know, cut some of Snow's adultery cheerleading since even Ginny thought that conversation made no sense.

[Camera One]

It's no excuse if they had an ounce of creativity, but the "problem" was that Elsa/Snow conversation had to occur in the first hour, and a lot of the dead weight scenes were in the second hour.  One scene which could have been cut from the first half to make way for it was the Regina/Henry scene... if they were desperate to keep it, they could have put it as the first Loft scene in the second half.  Currently, the second half's first scene in the Loft is Regina descending the stairs after speaking to Henry.  There was so much waste-of-time scenes in that episode that it's quite boring to rewatch.  The Snow Queen trying to stop Emma while trapped in the Circle of Ash, for example.

[YaddaYadda]

The adultry conversation should have gone too or been much shorter. I like how something like that was important for some reason, a whole scene of blah blah and explaining while they didn't bother with other scenes explaining stuff like say in I don't know, 411? Just throwing it out there.

[Dani-Ellie]

I'd vote for gone entirely. Mostly for how disgusting it is for Snow White to be telling the stepmother who tried multiple times to kill her that adultery is okay by comparing it to what she'd done when she was under a curse the stepmother cast but also because it once again made Snow look if not uncaring at least uninterested in what was going on with her own daughter because it was more important to stop in the search for Emma before she destroyed a part of herself and cheer Regina on for sleeping with the husband of a dying woman, who, might I add, ended up in Regina's dungeon because she protected Snow.

 

Gah.

[SporkedAndBeans]

Hi all - long time forum lurker delurking to pose a question.

I started watching this show online a little while back and though I very much liked season 1, I had to stop watching about three quarters of the way through season 3 because it turned into /such. a. grind/. There was way too much handwaving mumbo jumbo and it just….well, it got too stupid for me to stomach. I felt like beating my head against a desk a lot of the time and so the last episode I saw was the one with the seance and Ghost!Cora. I read through some of the threads here and many of the criticisms sum up why I stopped watching, but I noticed that in the Poll of the Week many of you are continuing with the show, so…does something happen in late season 3 or into season 4 that makes the grind and beating my head against my desk worth it? It’s unclear to me from reading the threads. I'd be willing to grind through the last of season 3 if there was something worth looking forward to. You know?

If something good didn't happen to make-up for the grind, I guess then I'm just wondering what are everyone's reasons for hanging on (Non-squee-ing reasons, that is. Yep, I read the “Captain Hook” / “I *Squee!*, you *Squee!*, we all *Squee!* for Colin!” thread.  ).  I get not giving up on a show after watching it for many years, no matter how disappointing and how ::head desk:: it gets. I've been there done that.

 

edit: I forgot to add, feel free to spoil me. I grinded my way through the show as far as I did because I was in it for three or four of the characters and not for the plot twists that aren't twists. I kept hoping something juicy for the characters I liked would materialize, but it never really did.

 

thx! *returns to the shadows*

Edited January 27, 2015 by SporkedAndBeans

[Souris]

I can certainly see why you'd give up after the crappy seance ep. Honestly, if you're out, I say stay out. Nothing has changed for the better, so you'd have the same reactions. Personally, I'm hanging on by a thread, strictly for Emma, Hook & Charming. I'm pretty sure if I continue once it's back, it will be heavily fast-forwarded through the magic of my DVR.

[YaddaYadda]

Hanging in there for Emma, Hook and David.  Honestly, though the writers know how to shoot themselves in the foot.  Their ideas on paper are good, the execution and the handwaving, white washing of certain characters is just (insert eye roll somewhere).  

 

This show makes me feel like an addict, I guess.  I think it might be easier for me to give up the show if I were spoiler free which I'm not.  I see pictures and I see episode titles and I wanna know what happened, why so and so character look the way they look.

 

Yeah, I'm a sucker.  They have roped me in real good.

[Shanna Marie]

I figure that anyone who made it past the last part of season 2 with their television set intact could probably survive the whole series.

 

I would say to at least try to watch the season 3 two-part finale. It has almost nothing to do with the rest of the arc and reminds you of what you liked about season one, in a lot of ways. There's still some "throw stuff at the TV" material, and the aftermath makes little sense, but as a self-contained unit, the episode is a lot of fun.

 

I guess I keep watching in spite of my frustrations because there's this weird mix of hate watching and love watching. There are bits and pieces I really enjoy, and then the parts that I hate are fun to hate. I'm torn between wanting them to surprise me and make it be better than I expected and wanting the worst so I can laugh at it. The premise is so brilliant, so many of the characters are wonderful and the cast is excellent. But when it comes to actual execution, these people can't write their way out of a paper bag. I do find that it helps to sing at the top of my lungs whenever Regina opens her mouth.

 

And I suppose I also keep watching so that I can update my mental fanfic that fixes it all and makes it more what I want it to be. I seem to have a parallel season running in my head at all times.

[Dani-Ellie]

Also here for Emma, Hook, and Charming (but primarily Emma). And because despite my intense frustrations, when this show does something I like, it's not just "Hey, this is fun." It's "OMG this is amazing and I love it and I'm going to rewatch the relevant bits a thousand times on YouTube."

[Curio]

I felt like beating my head against a desk a lot of the time and so the last episode I saw was the one with the seance and Ghost!Cora. I read through some of the threads here and many of the criticisms sum up why I stopped watching, but I noticed that in the Poll of the Week many of you are continuing with the show, so…does something happen in late season 3 or into season 4 that makes the grind and beating my head against my desk worth it? It’s unclear to me from reading the threads. I'd be willing to grind through the last of season 3 if there was something worth looking forward to. You know?

 

Well, there's good news and bad news. Good news: If you made it through that seance episode, then you probably just suffered through the worst episode of the series. So, congratulations. (Okay, it's probably tied for the worst. There are some others that are just as bad, including one in Season 4.) Bad news: You still have some pretty bad episodes to suffer through until the two-part Season 3 finale. Good news: The two-hour Season 3 finale is definitely something to look forward to if you keep grinding through. That finale is in my top three list for favorite episode in the entire series so far. Like Shanna Marie said, it's just a fun episode that calls back to one of the best Season 1 episodes. They finally let Emma go to an enchanted land and have fun with it. Bad news: Season 4 is nothing like that finale. Good news: The Frozen gang that comes in during Season 4 is actually pretty entertaining and the villain du jour isn't as annoying as Zelena was. Bad news: Too much time gets spent on Frozen and some of the Storybrooke plots suffer because of it. Good news: If you're a fan of Emma, you'll be pleased to know she finally gets some flashback love in Season 4. Bad news: If you're a fan of season-long plots having satisfying endings...don't expect one in 4A.

 

I get not giving up on a show after watching it for many years, no matter how disappointing and how ::head desk:: it gets. I've been there done that.

 

Hey, I feel you. I'm unfortunately stuck with this show until the very bitter end. (Unless they kill off Hook. Then I'll peace out.) I just get way too emotionally attached to certain characters, and if the writers kill them off or make them do something so completely out of character that it's unforgivable, then I'll drop those shows entirely. (Goodbye Boardwalk Empire Season 5 and Supernatural after Season 6.)

 

edit: I forgot to add, feel free to spoil me. I grinded my way through the show as far as I did because I was in it for three or four of the characters and not for the plot twists that aren't twists. I kept hoping something juicy for the characters I liked would materialize, but it never really did.

 

Which three or four characters are you sticking around for? We can give you a heads up if it's worth sticking around for them if you let us know.

 

And honestly, part of the reason I keep watching this show when I know it's so horribly written is because of this forum. If I couldn't rant about this show with everyone here, I'd go insane.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Curio

[OnceUponAJen]

Emma, Hook, and Charming and their interactions (in any combination) are what I like best too these days. The S3 two-part finale is wonderful. I'd say skip to it and enjoy if you'd rather not watch anything else.

Edited January 28, 2015 by OnceUponAJen

[Delphi]

I am the minority here (aside from Amerilla, I think) , I'm mostly invested for Rumple and Belle and spoiler: they don't do anytHing great to fix that cluster fuck for anyone. Secondly I watch for Snow, whom I adore and again disclaimer they don't extend any efforts fix her problems. But I love these folks so I watch.

The avada kadvara aspect of magic gets tedious as do the plots and OOCness. But I'm in it for the long haul, Once is my diamond in the rough. Sometimes it is beyond stupid and other times beyond touching. I'm in it for the glittering treasure that I have to find. It's usually there, even if I have to look hard for it. And it's worth it, yesterday I rewound a very tiny scene with Rumple and Emma about fifteen times, never stopped loving it.

As an aside, though there was way too much Frozen, those characters are never not amusing.

Eta: name dropping

Edited January 28, 2015 by Delphi

[Shanna Marie]

And because despite my intense frustrations, when this show does something I like, it's not just "Hey, this is fun." It's "OMG this is amazing and I love it and I'm going to rewatch the relevant bits a thousand times on YouTube."

Yeah, me too, except I haven't found where to watch the relevant bits on YouTube. When this show is good, it's outstanding. When it's bad, it's pretty awful. But the good parts make me care about the characters, so I want to see what happens to them (well, some of them). I think every time I've been ready to quit, they've then thrown something at me that made me fall in love all over again. I'm hoping something like that happens very early in the next arc because I ended the last arc feeling very bitter.

 

And honestly, part of the reason I keep watching this show when I know it's so horribly written is because of this forum. If I couldn't rant about this show with everyone here, I'd go insane.

And then there's this. I'm self-employed and work at home, so this is kind of my office watercooler. I'm actually a writer by profession, and discussing what these people do wrong has taught me a lot and is a good mental exercise for me. Now if only their brilliant premise wasn't so unique that I can't find a way to file off the serial numbers, write my own version and do it the right way.

[SporkedAndBeans]

Thx for sharing your thoughts, everyone!

Hate watching a show has it’s perks, but I don’t think I’d say that I hate the show. The reason I stopped watching is because it became intolerably frustrating to watch. I pinned the show’s poor season 2 to a sophomore slump and powered my way into season 3. I was wrong. The show didn’t get demonstrably better in season 3. Season 2 or the 3, the show doesn’t deliver on the set-ups — i.e., there are no “pay-offs” — and many of the characters stopped making sense as well. I would say that is probably the source of most of my frustration with the show — “Plot driven characters” in lieu of “character driven plots”. That is something that can turn me off a show no matter how long I’ve watched.

When I watch a television program I need the characters to be believable. To me they are believable if they stay true to who they are and when they grow or change, their motivations for changing (or not changing) are (usually) based on established character traits and not on “characters changing for plot reasons”. Characters that fall under this heading for me (and that I also really like, all for different reasons) are Emma, Rumpelstiltskin, and Captain Hook. I get and like these three characters.

For the most part (and relative to the other characters), their behaviors make sense according to who they are. What drives them, what scares them, what makes them run or fight, what motivates them to change or not change, what are their goals and ideals, who they trust, who they mistrust, why they mistrust and how they interact with others makes sense and they are clearly defined characters (again, relatively speaking). I get and really like (or like to loathe, in the case of Rumpelstiltskin) these three. Of those three I stayed with the show as long as I did for Emma and Captain Hook. Individually, they have qualities that endeared them to me, but as much as I like them, it’s not enough to compensate for the immense frustration caused by the writing for everything and everyone else.

Belle - This is a character that I wanted to like, but I just find her confusing. She could’ve been a good supporting character for Rumpelstiltskin like Prince Charming is for Snow White, but where Prince Charming is consistently one-note (which in this case is a good thing), Belle’s character is shambolic. I don’t think the writing staff put more than 5 minutes worth of thought at a time into making her a believable character. In season 2 she leaves Rumpelstiltskin because she realizes he’s still a terrible man, but then gets back together with him because … ? Was she turned on by Rumpelstiltskin’s penchant for thrashing people with his cane? Did finding out that Rumpelstiltskin had killed his wife make her feel randy? How was Belle not horrified by not only her actions as Lacey but Rumpelstiltskin’s actions as well, unless…she was into it? That does jibe with what she said in season 3 that she loves Rumpelstiltskin’s dark side too, but, I’m sorry, wat? That’s…No.

Snow White - I don’t care how forgiving you are, no person of sound mind is chums with the woman that spent years trying to kill them and their loved ones. Regina declared out loud that she feels no regrets, yet Snow seeks her friendship? Why? Why is Snow White friends with Regina? /Why/ is Snow White even on speaking terms with Regina? I don’t get it. It’s as if no one else matters to Snow White except Regina, her unapologetic tormenter. Again I ask, “Why?” I’ve tried to make sense of Snow White, but there’s no sense to be had.

It’s disappointing because I did like Snow White’s character (as well as her alter ego, Mary Margaret), honestly. But now I see the character as an unmitigated mess, unsympathetic and pathetic. 'Pathetic' also perfectly describes her relationship with Emma, which is greatly disappointing because that was a lovely relationship that brought a lot of heart to the show in season 1. The 180 turn that Snow and Emma’s relationship has taken is also mind boggling because the time they lost is the fault of Snow White’s dear chum, Regina, and no one seems to have made that connection. Simply baffling.

I don’t understand what Snow White desires other than — I was going to write “be a mother”, but that’s not it — she wants a baby. Speaking of, does Snow White ever stop talking about the baby? Does she care about anyone else other than Regina or that baby? No one has to answer that, my gut feeling is that the answer is “no”. I don’t like baby plots because unless your show is “Parenthood” they suck, so I think the show writers have made a poor choice introducing one here.

Regina - I think the writers were confused and directionless about what to do with this character after season 1 /and. it. shows./ Regina is a hodgepodge of tropes stuffed into a corset and pantsuit. The show wants her to be a monster, but they don’t want to treat her like a monster. They want her to be evil, but don’t want her perceived as evil. They want her to be the embodiment of egomania, consumed with malice and hatred, but on the other hand also capable of true motherly love, which in my world view is at it’s core selfless. I think what the show is aiming for is someone who is ’conflicted’, but what she is is manic. The show has a Titanic meets Iceberg like problem with this character, yet I’m certain it continues to  go unnoticed by the writing staff.

Regina comes off as psychologically unstable, but rather than presenting her insanity as just that, the show is telling me that this woman — who has killed scores without suffering the pangs of conscience — is neither evil nor actually insane but misguided/misunderstood and only in need of warm hugs to make everything right. Wat? Rubbish. I smell bat guano.

People of sound mind don’t murder others without feeling some guilt. Such staggering disregard for other human lives is either born of pure evil, motivated by insanity, or both. But not so on this show and for reasons that are beyond my ken. My impression is that the writers are determined to redeem Regina, but in the same breath they ignore that she has acted in the wrong (and is truly evil). The show attempts to present Regina’s actions as understandable, something anyone could see themselves doing, justifiable even, and so there’s no reason for Regina to feel remorse or to atone for her transgressions. Her situation is simply “complicated”. If that’s so, why then are the writers trying to redeem her if they don’t think she’s done anything that even merits a mea culpa? It’s my opinion that this character exposes deep flaws in the writing staff's thought process and some underlying misconceptions of what truly makes a character complex rather than daft. For my money this is the worst written and most frustrating character on the show.

 

:: Wow, I think I wrote an essay...day well ended ::

Edited January 28, 2015 by SporkedAndBeans

[Souris]

Yep, SporkedAndBeans, I'd say you've pretty much nailed the problems that so many of us have had with the show and the way it's written. I wish I could sit Adam, Eddy and the rest of the writers down and force them to read your post over and over again until it sinks in.

 

It all boils down to lack of realistic characterizations and lack of payoff.

[Curio]

Wow, SporkedAndBeans, are you me? Because seriously...I'm pretty sure we have the exact same opinions about the show.

 

Tired of total lack of pay-offs? Check. Frustration over plot-driven-characters instead of characters-driving-the-plot? Check. Only hung around this long because of Emma and Hook (and Rumple when he's written as a good antagonist)? Check. (I've also stuck around for Charming, but don't necessarily need to see any more flashbacks about him. I just like his interactions with Emma, Hook, and the Storybrooke citizens.) Used to love Snow and her relationship with Emma in Season 1, but now can't stand her? Check. Confused about what the heck the writers are doing with Belle? Check. Baffled by how badly the writers have managed to botch Regina's character? Check. (Actually, this sounds like a lot of members in this forum.)

 

I'd say if you've hung around for Emma, Hook, and Rumple, then at least push yourself to watch Season 3 to the end. The finale will be your reward for the utter crap that came before it. Then, use the finale as your gauge to determine if you want to keep watching Season 4. I think you just have to ask yourself if you're willing to keep watching your favorite characters even though you know the show will never focus on characters over plot and there will never be any emotionally satisfying pay-offs. (Or if there are pay-offs, they come once in a blue moon.) I always hold out hope that maybe they'll fix these things, but after watching the 4A midseason finale, I think I just have to accept the fact that the writers and I will never see eye to eye. 

Edited January 29, 2015 by Curio

[kitticup]

Spookedand Beans, you should watch the season finale. You don't' have to watch any of the other episodes in Season 3 to enjoy it.

I am getting to where you are. I watch for Primarily for Hook and Emma, but it is getting harder to watch, because we don't get a payoff and we basically see the same speeches again and again. I want to see emotional intimacy not just them making out or Hook playing Cheerleader.

I don't want the show to be all about them. I want to see the other characters. I like Charming, liked Snow when she is in adventure mode, rumple being a magnificent bastard, even Regina when she is not being catered to by the writing staff. Neither rumple or Regina should ever be allowed to yield white magic, given their extensive use of black magic. I love Granny, the dwarves, ruby, Archie. The writers are blessed to have such a great cast.

Frankly, Belle and Robin are the only ones I don't want to watch at all. Belle is still redeemable. I liked her in the last episode.

[Camera One]

You watched "Bleeding Through" and after that, it's only 2 relatively inoffensive episodes before the 2-hour Season 3 finale.  So I agree with others that it wouldn't hurt to watch the rest of Season 3, or if you wish, skip to the 2-hour finale.  

[KAOS Agent]

I don't hate watch this show, but I do drunk watch it and I know several others do as well. Some episodes just require more alcohol than others. The Season 3 finale was a lot of fun - especially for fans of Hook, Emma and Rumpel. I thought Robert Carlyle was really dull as Rumpel in the latter half of Season 3 (I think he's bored with it), but he brought Rumpel's sparkle back for the finale. And since they'd largely wrapped up the 3B story before this episode, you don't really have to worry about the lack of payoff as it's pretty self contained. Honestly, if nothing else, you should watch the finale just so that the execrable "Bleeding Through" is not your last memory of this show.

[daxx]

The season 3 finale are likely my two favorite episodes of the entire series. I would def not stop before watching those two.

[HoodlumSheep]

The season 3 finale are likely my two favorite episodes of the entire series. I would def not stop before watching those two.

They're probably my favorite episodes too. Those episodes pretty much make me weep with joy (okay, maybe that's a bit of an exaggeration).

Although, I would be tempted to rewatch 4a just for Elizabeth Mitchell, because she and her character also make me want to weep with joy, despite logic being chucked out the window.

[ABitOFluff]

They're probably my favorite episodes too. Those episodes pretty much make me weep with joy (okay, maybe that's a bit of an exaggeration).

Hopping aboard the S3 Finale Love Train. It was just a beautiful, self-contained, purely fun episode that pretty much made me admit to myself that I was a CS shipper. Honestly, everyone in it does a great job.

 

As I've said before, if the writers give me another couple of episodes like these I'll forgive everything.

 

ETA: Ok, maybe not everything.

Edited January 29, 2015 by ABitOFluff

[Shanna Marie]

SporkedandBeans, you've managed to neatly sum up about two years worth of posts at TWOP and here. I would say that the things that frustrate you don't get any better, but the things you like are still there and occasionally good.

 

You watched "Bleeding Through" and after that, it's only 2 relatively inoffensive episodes before the 2-hour Season 3 finale.

Not sure I'd agree that those two episodes are relatively inoffensive. That's when they break all the previously established rules for how magic, heart ripping, etc., work and freeze and sideline most of the characters so Regina can shine. After those episodes, I might have given up on the series if it hadn't been for that two-hour finale making me fall in love all over again.

 

Snow White - I don’t care how forgiving you are, no person of sound mind is chums with the woman that spent years trying to kill them and their loved ones. Regina declared out loud that she feels no regrets, yet Snow seeks her friendship? Why? Why is Snow White friends with Regina? /Why/ is Snow White even on speaking terms with Regina?

That really is a stumper. I haven't thought much about it because there are so many other things to be angry about, but it makes no sense, and if you list out the things that Regina has done to Snow, it sounds absolutely insane that Snow would have anything to do with Regina. For one thing, Regina has never actually said anything about being done with trying to destroy Snow. That was her life's goal. She sacrificed her own father to cast the curse to destroy Snow. How does Snow know that it's even safe for her to be around Regina? That was a big failing in season two, with Snow going straight from Regina framing her for murder to snapping out of the curse and realizing all the things Regina has been doing to her for the past 28 years, to coming back from the Enchanted Forest and groveling to her. Then there's the fact that Regina arranged her father's murder -- and I got the impression in the episode with his funeral that Snow was aware that Regina was probably behind it. Regina kicked her out of her own home immediately after her father's death, tried to have her killed, and took over the throne that was rightfully hers. Why would she want to be friends with this person? That's insane. And it's not even as though they ever had any kind of relationship. They didn't have that long between the time Regina saved her and the time Cora killed Daniel and Regina started hating Snow. It doesn't even sound like Regina tried that hard to fake loving Snow. They didn't have a long time of living as mother and daughter. I can see Snow having enough sentiment to be uncomfortable with the idea of executing Regina, but there doesn't seem to have been enough foundation for them to be friends now.

[Dani-Ellie]

Not sure I'd agree that those two episodes are relatively inoffensive. That's when they break all the previously established rules for how magic, heart ripping, etc., work and freeze and sideline most of the characters so Regina can shine.

 

Yeah, same here. "A Curious Thing" makes me pissed off at both Snow and Charming and "Kansas" was giving the shining moment to a character simply because they could in a way that make absolutely no sense and has not been referenced since.

 

That whole trifecta of 3x18, 3x19, and 3x20 pings my rage-o-meter like nothing on this show has ever done before.

 

That said, I found 3x21 and 3x22 flippin' fun that I squeal like a teenager at a Justin Bieber concert just thinking about them. There is not enough love in the world for those two episodes, as far as I'm concerned.

[KingOfHearts]

"Kansas" was giving the shining moment to a character simply because they could in a way that make absolutely no sense and has not been referenced since.

 

Replying in Writers thread.

[Camera One]

Not sure I'd agree that those two episodes are relatively inoffensive. That's when they break all the previously established rules for how magic, heart ripping, etc., work and freeze and sideline most of the characters so Regina can shine. 

 

LOL, I thought the same thing after posting that.  I guess I was considering those two episodes in comparison to "Bleeding Through" and "Breaking Glass".  "Kansas" was a really bad episode overall.  And yeah, "A Curious Thing" resulted in the destruction of key rules for the sake of a twist (though there were some moments I liked in that episode).

[Camera One]

So Adam Horowitz has been tweeting pages from the original script from the pilot:
https://twitter.com/AdamHorowitzLA/status/561996868930904064
https://twitter.com/AdamHorowitzLA/status/561978257071804416

 

There are a couple of interesting things.  I didn't realize that Emma was originally named Anna.  Now that we know they would be doing "Frozen", I guess it's a good thing they changed it to Emma.

 

The first deleted scene would have been the transition before Emma was in the car driving out of Storybrooke.  I suppose it was not really that necessary, and I can't say the lines they wrote for Emma/Graham were all that great.  That entire scene could have been summarized in a single line about whether Emma might want to stay the night and Regina's drinks were strong.

 

The second scene wasn't all that different from their final product, except I guess they decided to put special stress on Gold asking for Emma's name.  Which in hindsight was important.  I didn't see Granny "quaking with fear" though, just extremely wary.  

Edited February 1, 2015 by Camera One

[HoodlumSheep]

Am I the only one that feels like Graham in the pilot script is quite different from what we got in the final product? Maybe it's the dialogue?

'Alas?' Did Graham ever use words like that? Would he use words like that? I can't recall him ever using..."flowery(?)" language, or I just flat out can't remember if he did.

Edited February 2, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[KingOfHearts]

 

Alas?' Did Graham ever use words like that?

I recall him saying "alas" in 1x02. He would tend to use traditional language like that.

 

Graham: Alas, he's telling a different tale. May I check your room? Or must I get a search warrant?

Edited February 1, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[SilverShadow]

The original idea was for the Sheriff to be Sherlock Holmes. I.e. his hell is that he's trapped in a boring small town with no mysteries. But because of copyright issues, they nixed that concept and switched to him being the Huntsman.

[The Cake is a Pie]

He had more personality on that script page than he ever had on screen.

[Camera One]

Adam also revealed the original opening scene of the pilot:

https://twitter.com/AdamHorowitzLA/status/562010871400902656/photo/1

 

I'm glad they changed it.  Why am I not surprised the show was supposed to open with a villain.

[MaiLuna]

That scene with Graham and the original opening scene are both on the S1 DVD.

[coops]

Interesting to read that most people liked the show in S1 and since then the general opinion is that everything has gone downhill. I think that S1 stands head and shoulders above all other seasons for a number of reasons, mainly that it introduced a great premise (fairy tale characters in our world) and the viewer believed at the time the show would explore that premise but we hadn't been disapointed yet.

All through S1 we waited for the curse to break so we could see the pay off. S2 was such a let down because there never really was any pay off apart from the very first scene where emma is reunited with her parents that was both touching and awkward. I personally wanted a whole season to explore the characters reuniting and coming to terms with the fact they had dual personas but that was never touched on. The whole reason the premise was so intriguing is because a fairytale world is supposed to be different from ours in every way so all through S1 i couldnt wait for the characters to remember their old life/world and have to ajust to ours. But there never was any ajustment. Characters seem to hop from world to world quite easily and fit right in which takes all the tension and drama out of the orginal premise for me. So what if fairy tale characters wind up in our world? They adapt over night. It really killed it for me when everyone was sent back to the enchanted forest in S3. I really wanted stories about how they would adapt back in their own world after 30 odd years in ours but they acted as if they had never been away... if characters act like cardboard cut outs its hard to care.

Another reason i think S1 was so much better was that in that season there was a dominant theme that was present in every single scene and gave every character a purpose: the characters didnt know who they were. Whether it was Snow bonding with her daughter unknowingly or Regina covering something up, every scene/story/character was tied into the same plot that ran ghrough the whole season and gave it a consistant narrative. Once the characters got their memories back the show failed to come up with a theme or plot that could pull an entire season together... instead they settled for a new bad guy each half season with no way near as much time to devolope their plots or characters as they had in season 1.

[KAOS Agent]

 

Characters seem to hop from world to world quite easily and fit right in which takes all the tension and drama out of the orginal premise for me.

 

The only one who ever seems to have any trouble adapting is Emma, which is why I so enjoyed her reactions in the S3 finale. She also had some fun reactions early in "Lady of the Lake" when she was reacting to eating the chimera. It really is a shame that they chose to completely ignore it for all of the other characters in Storybrooke. 

[coops]

The season 3 finale was rare in the fact it actually explored emmas thoughts, feeling and reactions to what was happening to her, in that instance going to the past. Perhaps the reason people like the S3 finale so much is because its two episodes of linear story and character progression whereas an average episode everything is split in two because of the flashbacks... most of the time characters dont have time to react even in the most extreme circumstances, Im thinking of the blue fairies return from the dead and the total lack of reaction the entire cast displayed!

[Curio]

Perhaps the reason people like the S3 finale so much is because its two episodes of linear story and character progression whereas an average episode everything is split in two because of the flashbacks...

 

I've mentioned this in other threads, but I legitimately think the show could be 500% better if they just switched to linear storytelling and dropped the flashbacks altogether. Or if they do need to use flashbacks, they should use them sporadically and when they're needed, not every freaking episode. Maybe only half the episodes need flashbacks. Instead of telling an organic story, the writers are stifling the creative process by forcing in flashbacks where they aren't needed. Oftentimes, they don't even match up well to the current plot or situation. Medusa, anyone? Bo Peep? Belle's adventure with Anna? None of those were particularly important to the overall main storyline. Not every episode needs a flashback and not every villain needs a repetitive sad sob story to explain their evilness.

 

And then the flashbacks we actually should see because they would enhance the characterization of the main characters (e.g., Hook's journey to outrun Zelena's curse and to whom he traded the Jolly Roger, Emma's time in jail or doing bail bonds work, moments where Snow and Charming were sad during the lost year because they couldn't see Emma anymore, whatever Emma did to pass the time in Tallahassee, etc.), we get denied those stories. Gah!

Edited February 3, 2015 by Curio

[Camera One]

The weird thing is, though, I often find myself enjoying the flashbacks more than the Storybrooke current day stuff, even when the flashback is useless at furthering the story.  Yes, there have been plenty of duds, but Storybrooke is also Dud City more than half the time, with the characters running around like idiots falling for every trap in the book.

 

And then the flashbacks we actually should see because they would enhance the characterization of the main characters (e.g., Hook's journey to outrun Zelena's curse and to whom he traded the Jolly Roger, Emma's time in jail or doing bail bonds work, moments where Snow and Charming were sad during the lost year because they couldn't see Emma anymore, whatever Emma did to pass the time in Tallahassee, etc.), we get denied those stories. Gah!

 

That is definitely the problem with the writing on this show.  In BOTH flashbacks and present-day, they skip over the actual interesting character building and emotionally resonant circumstances and moments, in favor of pointlessly contrived hamster wheels of plot.  I'm just not convinced that they would use the time well and give us satisfying character stories even without the flashbacks.

 

I do agree that due to lack of creativity, the flashbacks are sometimes forced, not to mention repetitive, since the writers just keep hitting the same time period or characters over and over again instead of using the flashbacks for true world-building.  I find that it's difficult for me to care or feel emotionally connected when I don't *see* something, when some sad story is just told.  One example was Will describing how Robin and Marion met, and what Marion said to him.  Another was Charming relating to the long-winded story about his drunk father.  These just fell flat to me whereas I might have been emotionally affected if I actually got to see them happen in flashback.  It didn't help both of those were completely inorganic and more like WTF.

[Curio]

The weird thing is, though, I often find myself enjoying the flashbacks more than the Storybrooke current day stuff, even when the flashback is useless at furthering the story.

 

That's not weird at all. Storybrooke is boring now and the flashbacks are somewhat interesting just because they have the instant fantasy/magical setting. I guess I should have mentioned that I want more linear storytelling in the present and I want them to not stay in Storybrooke all the time. So basically, the feel of Season 3's finale, but stretched throughout the entire season.

Edited February 3, 2015 by Curio

[KingOfHearts]

 

These just fell flat to me whereas I might have been emotionally affected if I actually got to see them happen in flashback.  It didn't help both of those were completely inorganic and more like WTF.

Then you have flashbacks like Bleeding Through, which felt very boring and unnecessary the main plot. Do they explain Cora, Ava, and Leopold a bit more? Yes, but those characters are not relevant any more. As interesting as Prince Jonathan's mysterious identity was, we'll probably never see him spoken of again. Without even mentioning the crappy seance, this episode was a total waste of time. The flashbacks could have been explained in dialogue alone. Ghost Cora could have given us a Readers-Digest version like she did with Snow to save us the utter boredom.

 

 

I guess I should have mentioned that I want more linear storytelling in the present and I want them to not stay in Storybrooke all the time.

I know Storybrooke is part of the main premise and all, but right now I'd like them to ditch it and just check-in with it once in a while. Put the main cast somewhere else, then leave a few non-essential characters like Belle behind. This could work if we got a little less SB than 2A, but a little more SB than 3A. My only other alternative would be a new curse with new cursed personalities, but 3B killed that opportunity.

 

 

And then the flashbacks we actually should see because they would enhance the characterization of the main characters (e.g., Hook's journey to outrun Zelena's curse and to whom he traded the Jolly Roger, Emma's time in jail or doing bail bonds work, moments where Snow and Charming were sad during the lost year because they couldn't see Emma anymore, whatever Emma did to pass the time in Tallahassee, etc.), we get denied those stories. Gah!

Heck yeah. Let's see how Mulan and Aurora saved Phillip, or Rumple creating the Dark Curse, or August finding Emma/Neal, or how the Blue Fairy got the Black Fairy's wand back from Rumple. Give us relevant things, writers! No one gives a flip about Pied Piper Pan or Lily.

Edited February 3, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

Hook, Emma & David should go with Will to Wonderland on an Anastasia finding mission or whatever. Finding people is the Charming family mission statement after all. Regina, Henry and Snow can then commence with the author nonsense and I will be free to skip it all. I'd also be interested in the show visiting a land no one has previously been to, so there is no backstory about how a three year old spilled her milk on someone and destroyed their life.

 

One of the things that made the Snow Queen's story so nice was that her motivation for evil was not based on some contrived need for vengeance. Her craziness was based on a tragic accident and a need to fix it. Her connection to Rumpel was minor and the Emma part worked well too in that she sought out Emma to create her perfect family, not because of some action Emma had taken as a young teenager. It was so refreshing to have a villain that wasn't bent on revenge, but driven by a different motive as twisted as it was.

[Shanna Marie]

I read a couple of articles recently that got me thinking, and it ended up in a way explaining why each plot arc on this show has worked or not worked. And it might be possible that there's one tiny thing that keeps the Author Quest from being the dumbest plot ever on this show. One thing I read was a blog post by a novelist I know talking about positive character goals vs. negative goals -- "I want" vs. "I don't want." The other was an article about the "I want" song common in Broadway that started appearing more in the Disney movies, like "Part of Your World" in The Little Mermaid, in which the protagonist articulates what she wants. Going further into the idea of positive vs. negative goals, there's active and reactive -- wanting to achieve something vs. trying to stop something. I guess trying to stop the villain could count as a negative goal ("I don't want the villain to succeed" vs. "I want to achieve this thing"). A lot of fiction is reactive because heroes generally would rather just happily live their lives, and they're forced into action because of what the villains get up to. Even so, there can be a positive, active goal that comes out of that. The goal of the heroes in Star Wars wasn't just "stop the evil Empire," but rather "get the Death Star plans to the rebels and try to find a weakness to destroy it." Most of the examples of positive goals that aren't driven by the villains are actually in fairy tales -- Cinderella would have wanted to go to the ball even without a wicked stepmother, but the stepmother's opposition is what makes it a story; movie Ariel wanted to walk on land, and that had nothing to do with Ursula; then there are all those young men setting out to seek their fortunes or win the princesses in the Grimm stories.

 

When you look at Once Upon a Time this way, it explains the good arcs vs. the bad ones. On the surface, season one looks like the heroes don't really have a goal because they don't know the situation they're in, but really, I think Henry is the protagonist of the present-day part of season one. His goal is to get the curse broken so the good guys can have their happy endings, and the whole season is him carrying out his plan -- finding Emma and bringing her to town, then trying to get her to believe so she can break the curse. In the flashbacks, Snow and Charming's goal is to be together. It's Regina and George who are more reactive because they can't bear the thought of this and keep trying to keep them apart, which forces Snow and Charming into the conflict. So in season one, the protagonists have active, positive goals.

 

In 2A, the goal of Emma and Snow is to get back to Storybrooke. Cora and Hook provide the obstacles and later the ticking clock, as Emma and Snow want to get back before Cora can go, but Emma and Snow would have had the same goal even without the villains being around. Meanwhile, David's goal is to find a way to get them back. Our protagonists have positive, active goals.

 

But in 2B, the protagonists are strictly reactive. There's nothing they really want and are trying to get. They're just trying to foil each thing that pops up from Hook, Cora, Greg and Tamara. They don't want the villains to succeed, but there's not really anything else they're trying to achieve, other than the effort to grow magic beans so they can get home, which is quickly ended and subsequently forgotten.

 

In 3A, they're reacting to Pan's kidnapping of Henry, but they still have the big-picture goal of #SaveHenry. Everything they do in Neverland is about saving Henry from Pan, and each episode is about some aspect of their plan -- getting Tinkerbell's help, finding Pan's camp, getting a message to Henry, saving Neal so he can help them get off the island. They do have to react to whatever else Pan throws at them, but they still have a positive, active goal separate from reacting to Pan.

 

Then in 3B, they're back to being passive and reactive. The only thing they want is to stop Zelena, and there's no active plan for that until the very end of the backstory when they cast the curse and the very end of the present when they know how to stop her. Before that, all they do is react to each thing Zelena does.

 

The 3B finale then gives us an active, positive goal -- Hook and Emma want to set the timeline right and then get home. Regina, as the villain, serves as an obstacle, but she isn't driving the action. They had the same goal before Regina took Emma prisoner.

 

4A is a real mixed bag because there's a lot going on. "Find Anna" is a positive, active goal, but then once we learn the full story it turns out to be somewhat reactive. "Find out who Ingrid is" is a bit reactive, though it's also part of Emma's quest to learn about herself -- she'd want the same thing even if Ingrid wasn't showing villain tendencies, but then that self-discovery thing kind of fell by the wayside. Eventually the season became about "stop Ingrid," so we're back to negative and reactive. As for the Rumple side of the plot, the protagonists never had a chance to have a goal there, since Hook didn't have free will and no one else knew.

 

So, oddly, Operation Idiocy actually provides us with a positive, active goal. Of course, the problem there is that it makes no sense for it to be a good goal when the villains want the same thing for the same reasons, and even if they salvage it by pulling the "you write your own happy ending" thing, they've made Emma and Henry look like idiots for endorsing the plan instead of saying "duh, you write your own happy ending."

[KingOfHearts]

 

So, oddly, Operation Idiocy actually provides us with a positive, active goal. Of course, the problem there is that it makes no sense for it to be a good goal when the villains want the same thing for the same reasons, and even if they salvage it by pulling the "you write your own happy ending" thing, they've made Emma and Henry look like idiots for endorsing the plan instead of saying "duh, you write your own happy ending."

I don't think Find the Author is inherently a bad idea, but it's this show. You can take someone like Jacob from Lost, who controlled everyone's lives and manipulated them, and also the Man in Black. It wasn't a stupid plan to try and find them then proceed to stop them. But Once is pulling a giant retcon here. Lost had it setup all along. Once is saying, "Yes we know we said before you work for your own happy endings, but now we're erasing it all in the effort to create the biggest whitewash in the history of mankind through a contrived storybook author!" 

 

A race to find someone/something with a power that could get in the wrong hands is a decent plot line, but this one's contrived as flip and basically throws all logic the show has ever mustered out the window.

Edited February 3, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[coops]

I agree its a good plot idea but will probably be wasted. I think the idea of postive goals also helps understand why Regina is such a failure as a character. Reginas goal may be to redeem herself but she gets rewarded for it before she puts any of the hard work in. For example the people she has tried to kill for years happily eat lasgana with her at grannys! There should be no friendly chats/dinners with Regina until its 100% proven she is redeemed as a murderer and up until 4A she was still having murderous thoughts.

[Shanna Marie]

I don't think Find the Author is inherently a bad idea, but it's this show.

Yeah, that is the sticking point. I actually don't like the motivation -- force him to give Regina a happy ending instead of everyone telling her to get over herself and create a happy ending, not to mention all the retconning of making the recording of past events "wrong" about Regina -- but there is interesting potential in finding out how the book is created, especially if it gets into how we've had some of these stories for hundreds of years but it's recent history in that world. Structurally, the quest for the author does give the good guys something to try for in which they might run into the villains after the same goal and be thwarted along the way. The real danger for the arc as it seems to be set up is that it will be like 4A and get all diluted. 4A started as being about finding Anna, then got sidetracked to finding Ingrid, which then got sidetracked to learning what her past with Emma was, which then got sidetracked to Emma trying to control her magic, which then turned into stopping the spell.

 

And it becomes a lot easier to see why the Rumple end of the plot failed and why the episode where that was the main plot really went off the rails if there was no goal/opposition structure. Rumple had a goal and was working unopposed, other than Hook's fuming, until the last second when Belle discovered what he was up to. None of the good guys knew about Rumple to care what he was doing or have any goal at all in stopping him. Belle didn't know about it long enough to have a driving goal. That's absolutely terrible story structure to have a villain with a goal and no opposition to it until the very last second when he's abruptly thwarted, while the good guys have no goal at all.

[coops]

but there is interesting potential in finding out how the book is created, especially if it gets into how we've had some of these stories for hundreds of years but it's recent history in that world.

That to me would be the most intresting thing they could do with that plot but I am 99% sure they wont even touch on that. Every other time the show has had a chance to explore anything remotely intriguing it hasnt. The most recent example I can think of is when we learned the snow queen was Emmas foster carer. There was no explanation given to how the Snow Queen went wondering the streets of new york to becoming a foster carer. The idea she had been in Storybrooke since S1 was also inspired but it just ends up creating a bunch of unaswered questions. Where did she go when the curse pulled them all back to EF on S3? How did she get back to Storybrooke? How did she not age for 30 years???

[Amerilla]

I don't think Find the Author is inherently a bad idea, but it's this show.

 

That's my feeling as well.

 

I mean, these are fairytale characters - this is how the show presents them - and characters are always the product of someone's imagination. They live in an invisible town where time didn't move at all for 30 years. They use magic beans to portal between magical realms. They're whipped around time and space by big puffs of purple smoke. Heart-ripping is a thing. Some omniscient narrator writing the characters' "happy endings" into the story would not be the weirdest thing that happens on This Show. Not by a long shot.

 

I've felt for a while like The Author is clearly some guy sitting in an RV parked in the New Mexico desert, tripping on mushrooms. That's really the only logical explanation for the last 2.5 seasons.

 

 

 

That's absolutely terrible story structure to have a villain with a goal and no opposition to it until the very last second when he's abruptly thwarted, while the good guys have no goal at all.

 

True, and it points out another major problem with the story overall: no dramatic tension. In a sense, it didn't really matter that he had no opposition. We knew he wasn't going to kill Hook, we knew he wasn't going to leave town with Belle and Henry, we knew he wasn't going to become the Grand Poobah of Planet Earth. If you're going to ask the audience to suspend disbelief and go along for the ride, you at least have to give them something emotionally meaty to sink into, and I don't care how many times Adam tweets it, the emotional meat just wasn't there. For any of the characters. 

 

Plus, it illustrated a problem with Rumpel and Regina - A&E want them to be villains, but they also want them to be loved. Depending on the Plot du Jour, they flip them back and forth between being grudging protagonist and outright antagonists, to the point where they work as neither.

 

The Imp and the Evil Queen are ok (in small doses) in the EF, where they can be big and bold and glittery and scene chewy. In the mundane "real world," they're just petty, joyless little people who seem to exist only to piss and moan about their lot in life. "Magic" does not make that any less annoying, and it certainly doesn't make them seem all that malevolent...since they can't do any lasting damage to the core of the story. The failure to let them grow emotionally beyond these confines just makes them more boring with each passing scene.

Edited February 3, 2015 by Amerilla