S02.E11: Back Doors

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Quote

Jesse's pursuit of God begins to alienate Tulip and Cassidy; Tulip receives advice about her relationship with Jesse; Cassidy begins to doubt Denis.

[TigerLynx]

I don't know which seems like the dumber plan, escaping from Hell with Hitler, or putting the SOK's weapons in a mailbox.

[Lantern7]

I'll say this much: having a sympathetic origin story for Adolf Hitler is questionable . . . and for it to fall on the 100th birthday of Jack Kirby, the great artist who probably sent a lot of Adolf's boys to the E/R or worse? Damn. Just, damn. I mean, I'm certain Garth Ennis would approve, as would the late Steve Dillon, but that is unfortunate timing.

Damn . . . I knew about Jesse's grandmother ("Grandmaw"? I forgot), and that shit looked harsh on TV. It doesn't totally  excuse why Jesse can be such a dick, but it explains a lot, doesn't it? And when you give the frigin' Word of God, then you know shit is going to happen. Jesse forcing Starr to shove audiotape up his ass was the best case scenario.

Denis didn't eat the dog. Good for him.

Did the weapons get an address? Seeing them pulled out of the smelting pit ("You Dealt It, We Smelt It!"), I figured that might be Cheez-Whiz.

[AnimeMania]

7 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Did the weapons get an address?

The address was Rio, Brazil.

Did the Grail switch the SOK armored truck?

[Mr. Sparkle]

51 minutes ago, AnimeMania said:

Did the Grail switch the SOK armored truck?

That's the impression I got. 

[PatternRec]

The scene with Starr and the tapes at the end was played perfectly. The music giving it that light comedy feel is great. A lot of things in the show have more weight than they did in the comic book since because it's live action so it's nice when they can touch on some of the lighter, albeit twisted, aspects of the book... 

Spoiler

 ...especially if this is the first in a series of Starr getting some twisted retribution at the hands of Jesse like in the book. 

[thuganomics85]

Hey, one of the rare times AMC let a f-word go by uncensored with the whole "I'm Adolf Fucking Hitler!"  Unless that was only for the On Demand version and they censored the actual airing.  Still weird they are trying to make his backstory sympathetic, but that is just par for the course with this show.  Plus, I suspect that, assuming he and Eugene do get out, his true colors will come back with a vengeance.

Cassidy seems to realize now that Denis might be getting out of hand now.  I have a bad feeling over how this is going to end with those two.

Jesse puts two and two together and now believes that the guy in a dog suit in episode two was actually God, but he's disappeared again.  Also, Jesse response to Herr's offer to take over for Jesus by telling him to shove the confession tapes up his ass with The Word.  I know that is fucked up for so many reasons, but Herr/Pip Torrens reactions were cracking me up.

I understand why Tulip is pissed, but she is so going to regret bonding with "Jenny" all of this time.

So, Herr and his group actually took the Saint of Killers (or switched out the armored trucks), and that is who Hoover has unleashed back onto this world?  Oh boy!

[Lantern7]

@thuganomics85 . . . I saw the f-bomb "live." Had to rewind to make sure.

[AllyS]

1 minute ago, Lantern7 said:

@thuganomics85 . . . I saw the f-bomb "live." Had to rewind to make sure.

Same here, I had to double check too. Shame they never used it on The Walking Dead.

[Mr. Sparkle]

You all beat me to it. I was surprised, because I never heard it on AMC before. 

[SoSueMe]

Just a teeny bit of politics (I know we're not supposed to)  but IMO Herr Starr has the exact accent and demeanor as the recently fired/resigned Sebastion Gorka.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

I find it hard to believe that Tulip has managed to keep her wardrobe from the first time she was with Jesse, despite all the escapes, disasters and life changes she's been through.

[Captanne]

Watched it last night.  I continue to love the show.  I find it hilarious that "dog" = "God".  Hiding in plain sight, indeed.

I'm also very fascinated by the way they are successfully (for me) blending arch comic book techniques with moving image video.  That is so cool.  Dutch angles, accentuated dialogue -- it's sort of like the old video vs. film.  You can tell there is another genre going on there but you're not. quite. sure. why.

[Babalooie]

38 minutes ago, Captanne said:

Dutch angles, accentuated dialogue -- it's sort of like the old video vs. film.  You can tell there is another genre going on there but you're not. quite. sure. why.

Well, I just learned a new term.  Never had heard of Dutch angles so I looked it up.  Thanks.

[Captanne]

They are classic comic book angles.  Plus, I think Alfred Hitchcock used them a lot.  As you know, they are used to indicate disorientation, violent action, or discomfort.  They are menacing and threatening -- usually.

 

Here is a comic book dutch angle shot used in film (it makes a perfect crossover example of the two genres.)

Edited August 30, 2017 by Captanne

[SoSueMe]

5 hours ago, Captanne said:

Watched it last night.  I continue to love the show.  I find it hilarious that "dog" = "God".  Hiding in plain sight, indeed.

I'm also very fascinated by the way they are successfully (for me) blending arch comic book techniques with moving image video.  That is so cool.  Dutch angles, accentuated dialogue -- it's sort of like the old video vs. film.  You can tell there is another genre going on there but you're not. quite. sure. why.

I didn't know the term Dutch angle but I was blown away by the cinematography in the beginning with young Jessie, is that what you mean? I am really impressed by the talent of the production crew. The story does falter sometimes, though. 

[Captanne]

I'm really talking about the entire series and dutch angles are just an example of the various techniques they've successfully transferred from the traditional comic book style to film (or video or streaming or whatever we call motion pictures now.)  If you open a comic book there are a lot of whizz, bam, boom moments (like the bullet going through the many rooms, for example) as well as unusual point of view shots (the dutch angle, the shot from the waist looking up at a face to give an impression of being imposing, that sort of thing), the voice gimmicks (in a comic book the voice of Genesis might be in larger bold face whereas in the series it's got a resonance and a deeper volume; or the voice of the leader of Hell that in the comic book may be in plain print and then italics and in the series drops in and out of a lower register reverb.)

[Eulipian 5k]

7 hours ago, Captanne said:

They are classic comic book angles.  Plus, I think Alfred Hitchcock used them a lot.  As you know, they are used to indicate disorientation, violent action, or discomfort.  They are menacing and threatening -- usually.

Your choice of screen grab was apt. The Original (Adam West) Batman series used exaggerated Dutch Angles for every scene in the villains' lairs. To me, as a kid, it tied "twisted" to being criminal. (That show also introduced the "BOFF" and "BOOM" and "TWACK" bubblegum lettering during the fight scenes.)

[Captanne]

Thank you!  I know -- it was really luck, too.  I was so excited to find that and even more excited that you noticed how perfect it is!

 

(Plus, Heath Ledger = LOVE.)

 

ETA:  I forgot to add, Eulipian 5k, I speak that language because I am old.  I grew up when Adam West's Batman show was "banned" by my K-3d grade school.  So, naturally we all flocked to it and watched every. fucking. minute of it.  Memorized every Biff Bam Whock.   I grew up on that.  It's partially why I turned to Marvel when I was in my teens because it dropped the campiness and I could relate to it more readily.  But the real genuine influence on my life was the original Star Trek I watched as a 13 year old.  And I am certainly a better person for it.

 

EETA:  All that said, and just to join the subject matter conversation, I think "fuck" is the best word in any human language ever and it breaks my heart a little every time someone wimps out like a little baby and puts asterisks in it and all that happy horseshit.  If you're going to curse and use my favourite word, fucking USE it.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Captanne

[ganesh]

On 8/29/2017 at 3:55 PM, Superclam said:

I was surprised, because I never heard it on AMC before. 

They said it on Mad Men a couple of times. 

I didn't find Hitler *sympathetic* just pathetic. In the paradigm of the show though, doesn't even Hitler deserve redemption if he's truly remorseful? Isn't that the point of hell? Then again, he's escaping. 

Jesse didn't use the voice on Tulip and Cassidy, they came along on their own free will, and if they didn't, they would have been blown up at the end of S1 anyway. I'm not buying Tulip's "we're the ones doing everything for you." She hasn't done much of anything since their first night in NO. 

[Snookums]

Siggghhhh... this threesome's estrangement is getting boring, you know? Again, I think they made a bit of mistake not showing us any of Tulip and Jesse's days as a happy couple--all we see, for the most part, is the bad times, to the extent where you can't understand why they even want to be in the same city. It's like when characters demand of Jesse why he wants to find God so badly and all he can say is "Well, he's GOD." The point is clear enough, yet unsatisfying.

But this one had me tensed from the get go because of that poor little dog--I trust this show with dogs about as much as Eugene should trust Hitler; that is, not one bit. 

Interesting that Genesis futzed out a bit on Jesse at the end, there---what does it mean? He's overusing it? Underusing it? It's getting bored?

[Captanne]

I thought the Genesis Futz (™, Snookums) was very interesting indeed.  

[Mr. Sparkle]

8 hours ago, ganesh said:

They said it on Mad Men a couple of times. 

I never watched more than the first few episodes. 

I'd like to see it used, for impact, on Walking Dead. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

5 hours ago, Snookums said:

Interesting that Genesis futzed out a bit on Jesse at the end, there---what does it mean? He's overusing it? Underusing it? It's getting bored?

Maybe losing part of his soul is catching up to him.

[ganesh]

4 hours ago, Superclam said:

I'd like to see it used, for impact, on Walking Dead. 

There's no real stricture against it on cable anyway. I'd rather see much more of it. 

Can the SoK do much without his magic guns? He's still got Jesse's piece of soul, so he should be subject to the voice still. 

[Captanne]

Oh, ItCouldBeWorse, that is a very interesting idea.  Honestly, when they dredged up the van with the Saint in it, I thought maybe that was the armoured car with the vials of souls in it.  (Was it?)  I can't remember.

But I did think it was interesting they were bringing up the souls.  (In the momentary instant I thought it was that armoured car.  Was it just an ambulance?)

Edited August 31, 2017 by Captanne

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 8/29/2017 at 11:06 PM, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I find it hard to believe that Tulip has managed to keep her wardrobe from the first time she was with Jesse, despite all the escapes, disasters and life changes she's been through.

Quoting myself to add:

Her studded leather jacket was great.  However, I assumed she had bought it, and all her recent New Orleans wardrobe from the proceeds of her shooting target escapades, as she did the refrigerator.  The jacket might still be new, I suppose, but seems rather warm for New Orleans.  Jesse must be sweating a lot also. How many copies of his outfit do you suppose he has?

Edited September 6, 2017 by ItCouldBeWorse

[ItCouldBeWorse]

1 hour ago, Captanne said:

Oh, ItCouldBeWorse, that is a very interesting idea.  Honestly, when they dredged up the van with the Saint in it, I thought maybe that was the armoured car with the vials of souls in it.  (Was it?)  I can't remember.

But I did think it was interesting they were bringing up the souls.  (In the momentary instant I thought it was that armoured car.  Was it just an ambulance?)

I believe it was the same kind of van that Jesse sank him in (the armored souls van).  He would have noticed if it was a different kind, although I doubt he would know which specific van.

Edited August 31, 2017 by ItCouldBeWorse

[Captanne]

So, was it the van of souls?  I wonder why Jesse didn't pop in and get his back?

[Eulipian 5k]

New Rule! From Herr Starr: All prayers will now be recorded on teeny, tiny, compact SD cards, and pass the Vaseline, or Butter.

[pezgirl7]

23 minutes ago, Captanne said:

So, was it the van of souls?  I wonder why Jesse didn't pop in and get his back?

His soul isn't in the van. 1% or less is in the Saint of Killers at the moment, and the rest is in his body.

I was thinking that maybe the reason his power wasn't working that great is because Genesis no longer found him worthy of the power? Or because Jesse is starting to lose his faith? 

[Captanne]

Is that how he got the Saint to back off?  I cannot believe I have forgotten this.  How embarrassing.

[ganesh]

He gave the Saint the portion of his soul because that's the only way the saint could get into heaven (per the audio lecture in the library). The nice side effect was that now the saint was vulnerable to the voice. 

[tennisgurl]

I really dig how the show is shot. Its use of weird angles make the show seem more surreal, which works for all the weird shit that happens on this show. It adds to the "wait, what?"vibe that the show strives towards. At its best, the show uses super weird, blasphemous plot elements and sequences to make some kind of point.

At its worst, its just weird and fucked up for the sake of being weird and fucked up. It can also jump from a sort of cheerful nialism to bitter bitchy nialism. Of course, thats Garth Ennis in general. Honestly, Preacher is my favorite of his works because its the one thats the least...pointlessly bitter to me, and its the one that is the most timeless. A lot of his work, to me, comes off as more him taking on stuff he does not like (superheroes, religion, certain politicians, etc.) and creating stories around showing how these things are stupid and awful and allows his POV characters to punch these guys/symbols in the face. Not always, and he has a lot of things he does well (he creates interesting dialogue and unique scenarios), but some of his work seem to be more tracts than stories. Preacher has all of that too, but it works as a story on it own as well, so I like it the most. 

The flashback with Jessie and his grandma was brutal. Jessie is a mess of a person, but its easy to see why he became the way he is. 

I dont see things doing well for Dennis and Cassidy. I see this ending somewhat similar to how things ended on Buffy when, in flashbacks, Spike turned his terminally ill mother to save her. It didn't end well. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

10 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I dont see things doing well for Dennis and Cassidy. I see this ending somewhat similar to how things ended on Buffy when, in flashbacks, Spike turned his terminally ill mother to save her. It didn't end well. 

Exactly.  But without the 

Spoiler

incest vibe

for those who still intend to watch Buffy for the first time.

Edited August 31, 2017 by ItCouldBeWorse

[WatchrTina]

9 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

At its best, the show uses super weird, blasphemous plot elements and sequences to make some kind of point.

At its worst, its just weird and fucked up for the sake of being weird and fucked up.

I just binge-watched four episodes to get caught up and I'm leaning more toward the latter sentiment.  I'm not religious as all but cretin-Jesus crossed a line for me.  So did the recurring torture of a child (young Jesse.)  So did sympathetic Hitler.  Oh and comedy rape -- lets not forget the comedy male-on-male rape in an earlier episode (and, in a way, in this one as well).

I liked the notion that the guns of the Saint of Killers could not be wielded by anyone but him and could not be melted (and that they were still cool to the touch when they came out of the liquid metal like The One Ring when Gandalf pulled it out of Bilbo's fireplace).  On the other hand Tulip "mailing" the guns and sword but not bothering to put them in a box first -- well that scene was visually amusing but plot-wise it was completely stupid.  I know this show is based on a comic book but . . . that was stupid.

I've been hanging on all this time mainly to see Graham McTavish (I'm an Outlander fan) so color me disappointed that he spent the last four episodes off camera.

I think I may be done.

[Captanne]

It's an interesting conundrum -- this idea of Jesus' bloodline being corrupted.  If one adheres to the idea that Jesus is the Trinity, then it makes no sense.  (If God is all powerful, all knowing, and all-benevolent then the bloodline couldn't, wouldn't, shouldn't be corrupted.  God can prevent that.)  If one believes he [sic] was just a groovy prophet who preached groovy ideas of love and peace, then sure, it makes sense.  But if it's the latter, is it blasphemy?  

Edited September 1, 2017 by Captanne

[ganesh]

I'm all for multiple interpretations of Jesus. I'm super interested in how they developed the breeding program. Because the woman only had the one boy. There's plenty of books that weren't in the bible and the books of the bible were selected to be the "bible" in 1300 by a bunch of dudes with an agenda. 

[Snookums]

Quote

He gave the Saint the portion of his soul because that's the only way the saint could get into heaven (per the audio lecture in the library). The nice side effect was that now the saint was vulnerable to the voice. 

He also couldn't risk sending the Saint back to Hell because 1% of his own soul is in him. It's a conundrum! That's why he sank the Saint into the swamp in the first place, and the flashbacks to his own messed up childhood explained why he didn't think he was "really" lying to Tulip. That experience was hell on earth.

Quote

 

It's an interesting conundrum -- this idea of Jesus' bloodline being corrupted.  If one adheres to the idea that Jesus is the Trinity, then it makes no sense.  (If God is all powerful, all knowing, and all-benevolent then the bloodline couldn't, wouldn't, shouldn't be corrupted.  God can prevent that.)  If one believes he [sic] was just a groovy prophet who preached groovy ideas of love and peace, then sure, it makes sense.  But if it's the latter, is it blasphemy?  

 

The opening scene was blasphemous and no two ways about it; it portrayed Christ as having sexual relations outside marriage. There has been much debate over whether Jesus was married or not, and if He had offspring--He died at age 33, and it would have been beyond unusual for a man of that time at that age to be unmarried. Some scholars think His spouse may have been Mary Magdalene.

But as for the breeding program: it's certainly blasphemous in the idea of mating siblings to one another in order to "force" the Messiah's return. And since Jesus's offspring was an only child they had to be crossing the gene pool right at the start so the Grail's defeated themselves from the get-go. 

But the idea of Jesus's family being holy isn't blasphemous: His mother is Mary, of course, and His father is Saint Joseph. I don't know anything about the idea of holiness being passed through family lines but I certainly can't recall anything I've read supporting the idea. I don't know of any other saints' family members being considered holy by association, as it were. In fact, one of the roots of Christianity was the idea that it didn't matter who your family was; your soul belonged to you and was saved by your own acts. But on the other hand, the Bible makes a HUGE deal about tracing Jesus's lineage back through the House of David's line, to "prove" He was the Messiah spoken of by the prophets, so? 

[ganesh]

They did, but that's also a massive retcon. 

[Pindrop]

Honestly, I am just bored now. The cyclical plotting of this show feels like infernal torment. 

[ChipBach]

On 9/2/2017 at 6:12 AM, Pindrop said:

Honestly, I am just bored now. The cyclical plotting of this show feels like infernal torment. 

Yep - I was watching and looking for diversions when it came to me...  Why not just... watch something else?

[Mojeaux]

I do love this show, but I’m with @Pindrop and @ChipBach about its plot loop and growing pointlessness. Enough is enough.

I stopped watching ep10 right in the middle (I never do this) some time ago to do something else and only caught up to the middle of ep11 last night because I was doing something where I could watch at the same time. 

Re Jesus: I’m in the camp that Jesus was married, to Magdalene, and she was not a prostitute. I’m with whoever said Dogma did a better job with the Jesus’s-descendent plot. Jesus’s descendent as an imbecile because of inbreeding? With whom? There is no way I can fanwank enough to button up that plot hole.

I am on record in many threads as loving this show, mostly because it’s so deliciously fucked up and (now I realize) (thanks, @Captanne!) the cinematography and editing to make it seem like a comic book on film. I don’t hate watch and I stop watching a show when all I can do is criticize. I’ll likely not go past this season unless the rest of this one picks up.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Mojeaux

[Captanne]

I enjoy the cinematography and am really glad to say it helped me get Ruth Negga in my life.  For that I am eternally grateful (girl crush.)  I like the lead and I like the Irishman.  I caught Herr Starr in an episode of "Marple" last night (because I am old and like drawing room English mysteries, too.  "Blah Blah Fishcakes" indeed....that's an old TWoP joke that I never understood until now.)

But the plotline (nice mention about the inbreeding, Mojeaux) -- I don't mind dark, cynical religious twists in my comic books, as a matter of fact, I usually like them, but they have to be logical and consistent.  I agree -- "with whom" is a good question.  Also, Son of Man -- God is omniscient and can pretty much run that whole show so ..... unlikely a moron is anything but intentional on His part.)

I'm enjoying the show and will stick with it, though.