Past Seasons Talk: From Seattle Grace to Grey Sloan Memorial Hospital

[CED9]

I'm watching the Lifetime reruns, and it occurs to me that Shonda has issues. I've read comments that Shonda has mother issues, but I think she has parent issues. This show is loaded with character's whose parents were abusive, mentally ill, neglectful, drugs addicts, distant, domineering, abandoning, or a combo.

1. Meredith:

Mother: Abusive, neglectful, mentally ill

Father: Abandoning

2. Alex:

Mother: Mentally ill, neglectful

Father: Drug addict, abusive

3. Izzie

Mother: Neglectful

Father: Have no idea - was he ever mentioned?

4. Christina

Mother: Distant

5. Jackson

Mother: Domineering

6. Burke

Mother: Domineering

7. Callie

Father: Disowns her for either divorce or bisexuality (can't remember)

Mother: Refuses to bond with grandchild due to daughter's sexuality. Refuses to attend wedding for same.

It's not lost on me that it's the two black mothers who are domineering, but the show catches a break because it's headed by a black woman.

The best parents - by far - are George's. But even George's father had difficulty understanding him and accepting him for being different than the rest of them. Lexie had loving parents, until her mother died and her father became an alcoholic mess. Am I missing anyone?

Arizona's dad was an ass, but it was just written off as stereotypical "military man" stuff. Her mom was an enabler in that regard, too. Seemed pleasant on the surface, but I think they tried to show that Arizona's brother's death screwed them all up.

[windsprints]

I don't subscribe to the line of thinking that because writers have characters have issues, that means that they must have issues in their own personal lives.  I think writers make characters flawed and damaged to tell interesting stories. Happy/shiny people do not a dramatic show make.

 

I mean, what kind of issues do the writers of Game of Thrones have because of the rape scenes?  Outlander with male rape story just aired?   Why aren't they questioned about their "issues"?  

I agree.  I have no clue what Shonda's personal life is like (and don't care) but I don't think its a given she has Mommy/Daddy issues anymore than I think the writers of Dexter personally know the mind of a serial killer, True Blood writers are vampires or any of the writers of shows set in a post-apocalyptic world lived in one.

 

Mommy/Daddy/Childhood issues are all over tv. Easy way to shape a character into one that will have built-in angst in their relationships. IMO, you'll often find them in many tv dramas that have relationships at its core. There's plenty of examples out there.

[Eolivet]

I miss the "family ties" of the earlier seasons. One of the reasons I connected with Meredith is I thought the show did an amazing job with what happens to a child who perceives herself as in the perpetual shadow of her gifted and talented parent. Ellis was a bad mother, but a great surgeon, and her seeming refusal to accept Meredith as either a daughter or a surgeon (in part complicated by Ellis' Alzheimer's) had a lot of layers to it, for me. I know the ferry boat disaster purgatory episode gets a lot of grief, and some of it is deserved, but Meredith resolving her issues with her mother as Ellis dies (in Meredith's head anyway) and later, realizing the meaning of "Be extraordinary" was really powerful.

 

I also enjoy Catherine Avery for those same reasons -- to put Jackson in context, in a way. I liked him so much more after Catherine was introduced. I loved Alex's storyline with his dad, and all the awkward scenes with Richard and Maggie had a certain sweetness to them.

 

I suppose I'm saying everyone's families have flaws and if the choice is between knowing their flaws and not knowing them at all, I'll take the flaws. I like seeing "where people come from" -- it deepens them as characters, for me.

[Deanie87]

I agree and I think a big part of this show (and many others) is to highlight people who are brilliant when it comes to their careers but not when it comes to their relationships. And the fact that so many come from less than perfect families plays into that, as well as the notion that you make your own family.

[RedheadZombie]

I don't subscribe to the line of thinking that because writers have characters have issues, that means that they must have issues in their own personal lives. I think writers make characters flawed and damaged to tell interesting stories. Happy/shiny people do not a dramatic show make.

I mean, what kind of issues do the writers of Game of Thrones have because of the rape scenes? Outlander with male rape story just aired? Why aren't they questioned about their "issues"?

George R.R. Martin (the author of the Game of Thrones books) gets endless criticism for how women are treated in his books. The show runners - who wrote in two main character rapes that don't appear in the book - get more. All three are frequently called misogynists. After a recent episode, a popular US Senator took to twitter and stated she was done with the show, after a beloved character was raped.

Outlander is catching hell right now.

The main character has experienced multiple attempted rates, multiple beatings, a knife to the nipple, and a last minute escape from being burnt at a stake. Every assault was almost immediately shaken off, with no apparent trauma. The most recent episode showed male on male rape. It started with a violent rape, and eventually showed a very sensual scene where the rapist is gentle and seductive, and the victim has an orgasm. Extremely controversial, and the moderators of the thread had to frequently warn posters to stop saying - "What kind of person is a fan of this?" Both the book writer and the show writer/show runner have been deeply criticized, and the author has been accused of having rape issues for years.

Please don't imply that my comment is anti-woman. Walt Disney has been described as having "mother issues" for fifty years. When a writer/show runner consistently portrays mothers and parents negatively, it's fair game to criticize. Izzie lied to her mother about having cancer to get her out of her hair. Cristina's mom sat by smugly while Cristina had a breakdown - Meredith had to throw her out of the room. I'm not part of the crowd who criticizes Bailey/Meredith/Derek/Callie/Arizona for keeping their kids in 24 hour daycare, but many do. The show makes no attempt to show responsible parenting. We simply assume when Meredith is sneaking into Alex's that a nanny is with her kids, and when both Callie and Arizona are in a bar and wherever else, that someone is with their kids.

By the way, I'm seeing this same thing in How to Get Away with Murder.

ETA: I realize no one has called me anti-woman (yet), but that's typicallly what it devolves into when Shonda is criticized. I've watched eights seasons straight in a marathon, and these issues are really apparent when you view them this way.

Edited June 5, 2015 by RedheadZombie

[choclatechip45]

I always found it interesting how Shonda is a single mother I've never heard her mention a significant other in any interview and yet almost female character on Grey's has been defined by a relationship at one point.

[pennben]

 

Please don't imply that my comment is anti-woman.

 

I wasn't trying to do that at all.  I was just noodling with why articles about Grey's always seem to me to be "What was Shonda thinking...." and then I was comparing it to two examples on recent extreme storylines where the articles were, as I saw them, "Is this a good storyline; why we don't want to see this anymore; etc." as opposed to notion the showrunner has issues that have bled into the shows.  I don't really follow those other shows I referenced, only the media, so they may not have been the best examples of what I was thinking. 

 

It's not a woman v. man thing, it's just a thing where I am fascinated about the reaction to Rhimes versus other showrunners and am trying to put my finger on it.  I just feel like there is a weird sense of folks feeling a familiarity with her, that leads to conclusions about her and her shows and storylines. To me, it's one of the damnest things I've seen in television behind the scenes in awhile.  That's all. 

 

I'll link back to a really great piece about her. It gets to what I'm saying, folks seem to think she is writing versions of herself (or her life) into shows (even if she doesn't write them!), as opposed to being a writer creating a show.

Edited June 5, 2015 by pennben

[Nobodysfan]

I always found it interesting how Shonda is a single mother I've never heard her mention a significant other in any interview and yet almost female character on Grey's has been defined by a relationship at one point.

 

She always gushes about hot actors on her shows,I guess she imagines she is any of her female characters and the men are her wish partners for real life. One day it is Dempsey, then McKidd, then J.D.Morgan, then J.Williams, then J.George and the list goes on...

 

When one of them leaves,she sheds a few tearts but soon finds a replacement.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Season5OwenHuntfan

[RedheadZombie]

@pennben, I believe you, and I was probably just being overly sensitive. 

[Marni]

I think the show often uses tragic childhoods as an easy and quick trick to try to add depth to a character and create sympathy. Sometimes backstories have been effective, for example I thought Cristina's father's death worked well. We could see how it shaped her but wasn't some pathology used to to define her entire character. I think it was effective because they revealed it slowly and after they had already established her to the audience first, so it added nuance to an already interesting character. The first time I remember her really talking about it was in season 3 to George in that beautiful scene after his dad died when she tells him she's sorry he has to join the dead dads club (link). Then season 5 is the first time she tells the story of the car accident that killed him to Owen (link). 

 

In comparison with Jo the writers used it as an alternative to actually taking the time to establish her to the audience. To me it never felt genuine. More like lazy writing- insert sad backstory here, look how deep and complicated this character is. Anyone can do that sort of writing, there is no skill in it. They clumsily dropped her backstory with over expository dialogue very early on as a cheap and quick way to make her likeable and show she is compatible with Alex (link). It has mostly been used as a tool for the purpose of furthering her and Alex's romantic relationship rather then a sincere attempt to tell her story (link, link). The references have become very random, for example the stealing cars conversation with Alex and the comment about having no kitchen in her car to Maggie. It's becoming more of a running joke at this point rather than an actual believable story, similar to Phoebe's childhood and mother's suicide on Friends. Her childhood and her relationship with Alex really define her as a character right now since the writers haven't develop her much since. This probably has to do with the amount of characters they are trying to juggle at the moment.

Edited June 7, 2015 by Marni

[RedheadZombie]

I just saw a huge WTF moment in season three.  In the same episode in which Meredith calls Cristina -  best friend and sister - she asks her if she has a father.  What??  How is it possible that this never came up?  Not when Cristina was sitting Shiva?  Not in idle conversation with her person? I believe they are soul mates, and that question makes their friendship look so superficial.  I realize that they're both self-absorbed people, but come on!

[choclatechip45]

 

I just saw a huge WTF moment in season three.  In the same episode in which Meredith calls Cristina -  best friend and sister - she asks her if she has a father.  What??  How is it possible that this never came up?  Not when Cristina was sitting Shiva?  Not in idle conversation with her person? I believe they are soul mates, and that question makes their friendship look so superficial.  I realize that they're both self-absorbed people, but come on!

Meredith had no idea how Cristina's father died until Denny told her in the after life episode she also had no idea Derek's dad was shot.

[Bort]

I don't subscribe to the line of thinking that because writers have characters have issues, that means that they must have issues in their own personal lives.  I think writers make characters flawed and damaged to tell interesting stories. Happy/shiny people do not a dramatic show make.

 

I mean, what kind of issues do the writers of Game of Thrones have because of the rape scenes?  Outlander with male rape story just aired?   Why aren't they questioned about their "issues"?

Considering that Game of Thrones and Outlander follow their respective source materials fairly accurately, I'd say that if there are "issues," it's the books' authors that have them and not the shows' writers.

[missbonnie]

I have never watched this show until I was bored and watched the episode where Derek died and then the episodes following that. After that, I was hooked and binge watched the first 10 seasons on Netflix. I can't believe that I watched 220 episodes of Grey's Anatomy in 3 weeks time. Good thing that I am retired and don't have any kids living at home anymore lol. I also think that I have cried more in those 3 weeks than I have in the last year, good grief!

I have never done that before and with season 11 due to hit Netflix this Saturday, I will be back in binge mode until I am finally caught up. Now that leaves me with another show to cram into the 13 shows that I watch regularly during the September to May TV season.

Edited June 11, 2015 by missbonnie

[pennben]

Holy crow, miss bonnie!!  I've binged watched multiple seasons of things in short time spans, but this is most impressive.  If there were a merit badge for such things, you get the highest level!  If you find a new show to cram this summer, let us know, my dvr is so low, my insomniac self is starting to worry.

Edited June 11, 2015 by pennben

[Greysaddict]

I agree MissBonnie...that is impressive!  Had you heard of Grey's before and just never watched it?  I am very intrigued by someone getting "hooked" on the show from Derek's death and am wondering if there will be some more new fans like you come September.  For every long time fan that says they will stop watching because of Derek, I am wondering how many few fans will tune in.  

[missbonnie]

I had heard of the show, in fact, I know several large groups personally who would meet up on Thursday nights with a few bottles of wine and they had a blast. The timing of it never seemed to work for me, either I was working or watching other stuff. So, we shall see how it goes next fall. pennben I have a bunch of friends who are begging me to watch The Flash, but I haven't made up my mind yet. My niece wants me to watch Psych since all of their seasons are on Netflix now, so I am currently trying to decide which one if any.

You know what I really would love to watch? ER from start to finish. I haven't see that show in forever.

Edited June 12, 2015 by missbonnie

[RedheadZombie]

So I've been watching the Lifetime marathons religiously, and yet my DVR did not record the finale of season three.  No Burke walking out of the wedding, no Meredith comforting Cristina while she breaks down, no Derek and Meredith break up.  Needless to say, I'm pissed.

 

So, I'm now watching season four, episode one, and encountered a major mistake.  Derek asked Richard to go out for a drink!  Richard had to say, "I don't drink"!  They were personal friends before Derek moved to Seattle, and he doesn't know that Richard is a recovering alcoholic.

 

I got a giggle out of Derek asking people to hang out because he's lonely.  Bailey refused, Webber refused, and Cristina was completely - WTF?  She tells him she doesn't like him, he asks if it's because of Meredith, and she says:  "I don't like you because you're you."  Go Cristina!

[kingshearte]

So, I'm now watching season four, episode one, and encountered a major mistake.  Derek asked Richard to go out for a drink!  Richard had to say, "I don't drink"!  They were personal friends before Derek moved to Seattle, and he doesn't know that Richard is a recovering alcoholic.!

I haven't watched past seasons recently, so I don't know if there are additional details that would contradict this, but I would say that it's entirely possible to be friends with someone and not know that they were a recovering alcoholic. If the worst of the alcoholism predated the friendship, you could simply not notice that your friend doesn't drink alcohol (a glass of rye and ginger, for example, looks exactly the same as a glass of ginger ale). And even if the worst of it did happen during the time you knew them, that still doesn't necessarily mean it was obvious to everyone in their life.

 

If Derek and Richard are supposed to have been super close and/or the low point was really bad and/or happened during the time they were friends, then it's a bit suspect. Otherwise, I actually don't think it stretches credulity all that far.

[RedheadZombie]

They do say that Derek/Addison and Richard/Adele were good friends prior to moving to Seattle.

[missbonnie]

Finally finished all 11 seasons of Grey's Anatomy, all 242 episodes. A few thoughts, Bailey is still driving me up the tree, when she gets all up on her high horse or pouts, I just want to take her lower lip and drag it over her head. I love Alex, Callie, Owen, Ben, Jackson, Richard, April, Jo, and Maggie. Amelia, Arizona and Stephanie are just meh in my book.

Now my nitpicks, first and foremost, killing Derek was a bone head move. Second, it's totally unrealistic plot wise that they didn't get Sandra Oh to show up for the episode directly following Derek's death. Seriously, like Yang wouldn't have been there for the funeral or Derek's other sisters we saw, Liz and Nancy? Continuity issues like that bug me. Third, Bailey got the board seat but did Alex get to keep the shares of the hospital or did he lose those as well? If so, that was a sh*t thing for the board to do. Also, I don't think that there's a hospital in the world that would hire someone (Amelia) who has drug addiction in their past, especially when it was just over 3 years ago that she got sober.

Now the episodes that tore me up, George's accident and death.

Denny dies from a stroke.

The airplane crash that killed Mark and Lexi.

The gunman loose in the hospital, even though back when his wife died I had a feeling that the husband would be back for revenge.

The episode where there was a train derailment and the young girl recently engaged and an older man were stuck together with a piece of pipe and only one could live.

April and Jackson's baby story.

Christina and Burke's wedding

Christina and Owen's many heartaches.

When Teddy's husband Henry died after Christina unknowingly operates on him.

There's really only one episode that I thought was ridiculous and that was the singing episode where Callie almost dies from an car accident.

Edited June 18, 2015 by missbonnie

[kingshearte]

The episode where there was a train derailment and the young girl recently engaged and an older man were stuck together with a piece of pipe and only one could live.

If anyone ever figures how out many times one has to watch this one before one becomes immune enough not to be left an ugly-crying, weepy mess, please let me know.

[Eolivet]

Bringing this over from another thread, since I feel like it's been addressed here before:

 

Forever wondering why Owen can´t live his life with the love of his life - with Cristina without kids. Why wasn´t she enough for him?Will I ever get the answer?

 

Instead he lets her go. To me he has never truly loved her.

 

Why pursue another  woman just to have kids with her when he claims he will forever be in love with Cristina and never love another woman? How can you have kids and not love their mother/your wife???

 

Owen is the most f.....d up character on the show, the damage which the writers did to him is irreversible. (Sorry for the language, but it is as bad as the word is)

 

To me, Owen and Cristina were perfectly encapsulated by that great Patty Smyth and Don Henley song, "Sometimes Love Just Ain't Enough."

 

I actually found their breakup -- with the exception of a few choice moments -- to be one of the more realistic things on Grey's. The epitome of two people who loved each other, but could not be compatible in the ways that mattered. I can't remember if I've said this before, but I liked the slow decline of their relationship rather than "suddenly one big thing ruins everything" or -- even worse -- "I suddenly realize that I don't love you"  that in my experience, has characterized TV breakups. They did love each other, they tried so hard to make it work and they just...could...not.

 

I thought the show did a credible job explaining to the audience who had invested so much in them (including me) why they could never be together -- that one or both of them would never be happy because of their fundamental differences.

 

In fact, I found their "death by a thousand tiny cuts (and one giant impasse)" more believable than say, Callie and Arizona's breakup, which seemed to be a series of "suddenly one big thing ruins everything" (Arizona's trauma, the miscarriage, the cheating)  a bunch of times until it finally stuck (...for now).

[Deanie87]

I agree. Out of all of the breakups, Cris and Owen and Mark and Lexie were the most realistic. In Mark and Lexie's case, the age difference and the prospect of not wanting to be a step-parent and grand parent at 25 is reasonable. If April and Jackson separate, it will also be semi-realistic but their issues are also pretty surmountable.

Cris and Owen had a lot of passion, but soooo much angst and little to no humor/lighthearted moments that I always thought of them as the flame who burns bright but briefly. Even if that much heaviness was sustainable, it's just not that entertaining to watch, IMO.

[Nobodysfan]

Bringing this over from another thread, since I feel like it's been addressed here before:

 

 

To me, Owen and Cristina were perfectly encapsulated by that great Patty Smyth and Don Henley song, "Sometimes Love Just Ain't Enough."

 

I actually found their breakup -- with the exception of a few choice moments -- to be one of the more realistic things on Grey's. The epitome of two people who loved each other, but could not be compatible in the ways that mattered. I can't remember if I've said this before, but I liked the slow decline of their relationship rather than "suddenly one big thing ruins everything" or -- even worse -- "I suddenly realize that I don't love you"  that in my experience, has characterized TV breakups. They did love each other, they tried so hard to make it work and they just...could...not.

 

I thought the show did a credible job explaining to the audience who had invested so much in them (including me) why they could never be together -- that one or both of them would never be happy because of their fundamental differences.

 

In fact, I found their "death by a thousand tiny cuts (and one giant impasse)" more believable than say, Callie and Arizona's breakup, which seemed to be a series of "suddenly one big thing ruins everything" (Arizona's trauma, the miscarriage, the cheating)  a bunch of times until it finally stuck (...for now).

 

I respectfully disagree.

 

For example,1017 was AWFUL. I cringed how terribly the episode was written, how the writer focused on these fundamental differences and polarising two stories.Two radical journeys,two on the edge views into the future.

 

If they wanted me to believe he wants kids more than her, he should have divorced her right there when she aborted their child,not go with her to the appointment.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Season5OwenHuntfan

[BaseOps]

I respectfully disagree.

 

For example,1017 was AWFUL. I cringed how terribly the episode was written, how the writer focused on these fundamental differences and polarising two stories.Two radical journeys,two on the edge views into the future.

 

If they wanted me to believe he wants kids more than her, he should have divorced her right there when she aborted their child,not go with her to the appointment.

 

But that's life. I mean, I agree that it wasn't all handled perfectly and I of course respect the fact that you see it differently. But I totally understand the struggle of really wanting to be with someone but your desires not matching up - sometimes you know that you should be apart, but that's easier said than done. I thought the whole Owen / Cristina relationship was a huge mess for the last several years (which is unfortunate, because it was amazing in S5.) But I never doubted either of their motives or thought that it didn't make sense... I was simply tired of seeing it. 

 

Yes, he "should have" divorced her knowing that it would never work, but he was so in love with her that he tried to get around it. Obviously that was incredibly unhealthy and not the most fun to watch. The last several years of their relationship ruined his character for me. 

[Nobodysfan]

But that's life. I mean, I agree that it wasn't all handled perfectly and I of course respect the fact that you see it differently. But I totally understand the struggle of really wanting to be with someone but your desires not matching up - sometimes you know that you should be apart, but that's easier said than done. I thought the whole Owen / Cristina relationship was a huge mess for the last several years (which is unfortunate, because it was amazing in S5.) But I never doubted either of their motives or thought that it didn't make sense... I was simply tired of seeing it. 

 

Yes, he "should have" divorced her knowing that it would never work, but he was so in love with her that he tried to get around it. Obviously that was incredibly unhealthy and not the most fun to watch. The last several years of their relationship ruined his character for me. 

 

I find him despicable now. When I rewatch some S5 clips, I totally see another man who has nothing to do with who Owen has become, it is such a metamorphosis, no other character on Greys I believe has been so ruined. Well, maybe the way Derek died and how no one honestly cared. 

Edited July 15, 2015 by Season5OwenHuntfan

[Eolivet]

Bringing this over from Spoilers and Spec again:

 

 

 

Probably because when she was writing S5, she wasn't banking on the show still being around for a S12. Was anyone, really? S4 was a mess, so was a lot of S5, then S6 showed that they could still be great when they tried and they haven't really been able to sustain a great full season top to bottom since. Some good storyline ideas executed poorly.

 

I brought this over mainly because that's not how I perceived season 5 and 6 at all. I found season 5 to be incredibly strong, bouncing back after an uneven season 4, with season 6 to be pretty mixed until that memorable finale. Was season 5 intern operating school? I still feel like there were a lot of good stories (independent of that one). But I distinctly remember rolling my eyes at the way they tried so hard in season 6 to make the Mercy Westers happen.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Eolivet

[upperco]

I too found Season Six, despite the missteps in Seasons Three, Four, and Five, to be an incredibly bleak year, as the need to reduce Pompeo's screentime coincided with the departure of two popular original cast members. Thus, the focus of the series had to change. The Mercy Westers were a major factor in this inconsistent transitional period, and none of them were organically integrated into the established ensemble, probably because they all came on together (just like the comparable Season Nine interns). In fact, I still don't think April and Jackson are well-defined characters (particularly the latter), and I feel the same about Jo and Stephanie.

Edited July 17, 2015 by upperco

[cycworker]

I loved Season 6! 

 

I found Season 5 very uneven. It gave us the introduction of Arizona, my favorite character, so that was good. Erica left, which pleased me to no end. But the Dead Denny stuff was too much for me. 

[RedheadZombie]

I just re-watched season 5 (again), and I'm convinced that before Shonda decided to punish Katherine Heigl through Izzie, Shonda considered Izzie to be the heart of the show.  She was consistently portrayed as the most loving, and the most in touch with her patients' emotions.  Now I know that some think George was the heart, but consider the differences in their "deaths". 

 

George was hit by a bus and languished in John Doe land before they figured it out.  I think that scene is all about Meredith - not George.  Now consider Izzie's cancer diagnosis.  Cristina (whom Izzie called a "robot"), is unable to bear the burden of the only one knowing.  Cristina becomes overwhelmed, and at one point even holds Izzie's hand in comfort.  When Cristina spills the beans, everyone (minus George) is gathered at her hospital room.  Webber, Bailey, etc.  And it's Izzie's cancer that gets Derek out of his self-pitying, "I'm quitting", sulking hermit act.  He must share his amazing "gift" and swoop in to save the day.  I think that if KH hadn't abruptly quit, Shonda would have written her a good death/leaving storyline.

[Eolivet]

I'm not sure if I'm following your post, so I apologize -- but I actually think, all things being equal, Shonda would've had it the opposite way: George decides he wants to join the army and then just goes off and enlists and is never heard from again, while Izzie has the tragic cancer death that knocks Derek back to reality, reawakens Cristina, and allows Shonda to give Izzie and dead Denny a blissful reunion in the afterlife.

 

After all, it would be very similar to Derek's death: a beloved character basically gets everything he/she wants in their final days (happiness with Meredith, brain tumor sex with Denny) only to have their life tragically cut short. Izzie dying would be full of the soapy goodness Shonda seems to enjoy. Whereas George just goes off without fanfare, similar to Hahn or more recently, Teddy.

 

I don't know if the truth about this has come out, so I apologize, but this has always been my "head canon:" that Shonda realized she was going to lose Heigl and began writing an exit for her, when Knight decided he'd had enough. So, Shonda saves Izzie at the last minute and kills George. Then Heigl goes nuts, and this is where we agree: Izzie gets a much worse exit because Shonda was annoyed. But to me, the cancer sex was always, always setting up Izzie dying. It made no sense otherwise.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Eolivet

[Marni]

I loved Season 6! 

 

I found Season 5 very uneven. It gave us the introduction of Arizona, my favorite character, so that was good. Erica left, which pleased me to no end. But the Dead Denny stuff was too much for me. 

 

I also thought season 6 was really great. With Katherine and TR gone, as well as Ellen being less available I think the writers were forced to be more creative and mix things up. Overall it was a very consistent season, but also had some great stand alone episodes- 'I Saw What I Saw', 'Invest in Love', 'Sanctuary' and 'Death and All His Friends' The worst part for me was Mark's daughter.

 

S5 was inconsistent. The beginning is good and quite funny and then it becomes overloaded with so many melodramatic storylines.

I didn't like:

- Ghost Denny

- Overly emotional Bailey in Peds

- Private Practice crossover episode with Addison's brother having brain parasites. I found the group scenes with Sam, Naomi, Derek, Mark and Addison so forced.

- George disappearing randomly

- Cristina floundering with not much to do work wise

- Owen's fiancé showing up 

 

Derek making a mistake on the expecting women was interesting. The scene with him comparing the stacks of files with his successful and unsuccessful cases was a nice acknowledgement of how risky surgery is, especially neurosurgery. I like it better when the show takes a more down to earth view of surgery and the realities of being a doctor. 

Edited July 31, 2015 by Marni

[Nobodysfan]

 

Derek making a mistake on the expecting women was interesting. The scene with him comparing the stacks of files with his successful and unsuccessful cases was a nice acknowledgement of how risky surgery is, especially neurosurgery. I like it better when the show takes a more down to earth view of surgery and the realities of being a doctor. 

 

I totally agree. You have made such an interesting point. This storyline was so captivating, and Dempsey was really good at it,I l love when they also show a surgeon being unsuccessful although doing their best because this is real life, not those god-like creatures they present on the show 90% of time, all the freaking superhero poses they present instead. I only roll my eyes at them.

 

It was similar to Cristina when one of the McNeil kids died, there was this emotional shower scene in the bathroom,but with her I had a feeling it had to do more with her not getting the Harper Avery award subconsciously, not really mourning the death of this child. 

Edited July 31, 2015 by Season5OwenHuntfan

[Deanie87]

I just re-watched season 5 (again), and I'm convinced that before Shonda decided to punish Katherine Heigl through Izzie, Shonda considered Izzie to be the heart of the show.  She was consistently portrayed as the most loving, and the most in touch with her patients' emotions.  Now I know that some think George was the heart, but consider the differences in their "deaths". 

 

George was hit by a bus and languished in John Doe land before they figured it out.  I think that scene is all about Meredith - not George.  Now consider Izzie's cancer diagnosis.  Cristina (whom Izzie called a "robot"), is unable to bear the burden of the only one knowing.  Cristina becomes overwhelmed, and at one point even holds Izzie's hand in comfort.  When Cristina spills the beans, everyone (minus George) is gathered at her hospital room.  Webber, Bailey, etc.  And it's Izzie's cancer that gets Derek out of his self-pitying, "I'm quitting", sulking hermit act.  He must share his amazing "gift" and swoop in to save the day.  I think that if KH hadn't abruptly quit, Shonda would have written her a good death/leaving storyline.

 

I've always wondered about that.  Izzie was definitely one of Shonda's favorites and I think that she is the perfect example of Shonda seeing a character in a completely different way than much of the audience.  Shonda seemed to be a big fan of excusing various characters' behavior because LOVE, and therefore most of Izzie's  stunts were excused.  Although Izzie started out very compassionate, she was also a hugely judgmental and a self-righteous bitch at times.  And I've always wondered if she was written that way on purpose or if the writers (mostly Shonda I think) were completely unaware of how she came across.  And also, how much of that was Heigl (and I am not a hater of Heigl for the most part.)

 

Two examples stick out in my mind.  The first was the whole Gizzie debacle.  Clearly, this was the story that the writers chose for her and she was written as completely unrepentant and awful, but Heigl seemingly did nothing to humanize her during that time, at least to my eyes.  Maybe there was no way to make her even a little bit sympathetic due to the writing, or maybe it was the actor's choices.  She just came off so badly, but Heigl is a decent, sometimes very good actress, and I think she could have softened it a bit if she wanted.  Plenty of characters on the show have done some despicable things, but the actors are good enough to let us see the motivation or at least self-aware enough to own what they do.  Maybe it was a directorial decision.

 

The other example the break up with Alex.  Again, much of the blame has to be put on the writers because they did have her leave via note for a pretty stupid reason.  But I swear, Heigl somehow gave it that extra bitch factor LOL!  When they are on the bench hugging and Alex initially tells her that he loves her, she smiles the smuggest smile that ever smugged!  It was like, "whoo that was easy.  Good to see that Alex is still wrapped around my finger like always."  Maybe it was just to make the impact of his speech more affecting, but it just seemed an unnecessary actor choice to me.  To be fair, I was completely done with Izzie (and Heigl) by then so maybe that colors my view, and that was shortly before she left for good so maybe the writers had had enough as well.  I don't know, I often questioned Izzie's behavior when she was with Alex and why the choice was made (by Heigl, the director or whomever) to have her be so thoughtless sometimes.

 

As far as George, I think that relations between him and Shondaco were so bad at the end, that they just wanted him off the show and I think that TR was disgusted enough with how George had been written at that point, that he was happy to go.

[RedheadZombie]

I originally missed a few seasons, including Izzie's leaving, so I watched it for the first time recently.  I had no problem with Izzie, and I think it's because I watched it minus the whole drama of the time.  It's always struck me as rather ironic that the whole shit stirrer (Patrick Dempsey) was the one who came off smelling like a rose.  IW was very wrong in what he said, and how he exacerbated the situation, but I've always thought PD came off very bad in the story telling, as well.  TR was truly the victim, and KH was just defending her bestie, and I think they were both punished for it.  In fact, I bet part of KH's abrupt quitting was due to how Shonda dealt with TR's departure.  KH could have (and should have) dealt with all of it much more professionally.  I think her mother has really helped destroy her career.

 

Something else that I missed, originally, was Callie/Hahn.  I always found it a bit far fetched that Callie discovered she was bisexual.  Callie always seemed sexually adventurous, and to have never even been attracted to a woman, and then BAM.  Well, I never really bought it, but I was willing to go along with the fact that she discovered this side of herself with lesbian Hahn.  So I finally watched those episodes, and now I'm even more disbelieving.  Hahn wasn't gay or even bisexual, either?  I found it so silly.  And Callie asking Mark to instruct her in female oral - by performing a tutorial in an on-call room.  Just kind of gross.  If Shonda thought the actresses had amazing chemistry, why couldn't Hahn have been closeted.  It just stretched credulity. 

[Marni]

I've always wondered about that.  Izzie was definitely one of Shonda's favorites and I think that she is the perfect example of Shonda seeing a character in a completely different way than much of the audience.  Shonda seemed to be a big fan of excusing various characters' behavior because LOVE, and therefore most of Izzie's  stunts were excused.  Although Izzie started out very compassionate, she was also a hugely judgmental and a self-righteous bitch at times.  And I've always wondered if she was written that way on purpose or if the writers (mostly Shonda I think) were completely unaware of how she came across.  And also, how much of that was Heigl (and I am not a hater of Heigl for the most part.)

 

In terms of Izzie's likability, most of my frustrations stem from her storylines always being focused on her love life. After the brief hockey player boyfriend she went from Alex to Denny to George to Alex, and the problem was they were all written to be these intense, complicated, 'MFEO' epic love affairs. If became quite exhausting and repetitive.

 

When she was working with patients and hanging out with the rest of MAGIC she was really great and fun. Also I thought there was a lot of potential with Addison mentoring her in season 2, but they dropped that story completely.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Marni

[Greysaddict]

In terms of Izzie's likability, most of my frustrations stem from her storylines always being focused on her love life. After the brief hockey player boyfriend she went from Alex to Denny to George to Alex, and the problem was they were all written to be these intense, complicated, 'MFEO' epic love affairs. If became quite exhausting and repetitive.

 

When she was working with patients and hanging out with the rest of MAGIC she was really great and fun. Also I thought there was a lot of potential with Addison mentoring her in season 2, but they dropped that story completely.

 

Totally agree with both of your points.  On the topic of Izzie's love life, I remember originally thinking it was absurd that she had all these "epic" loves within approx 3 seasons...but its even worse when you rewatch all together and realize it was basically less than 2 years!

 

The story with Addison being Izzie's mentor definitely had potential, but I'm assuming that fizzled because they were preparing for Addison to leave for Private Practice.

[jaytee1812]

I actually believed that Izzie thought each man was her 'true love'. Some people are like that, they can't just be with someone and see how it goes it has to be some sort of epic romance, much as I don't like Heigl, she sold that.

[braziliangirl]

I think the greatest problem with the show was that in the earlier seasons Grey's had awesome dialogues that seemed like real conversations between people. So the dialogues compensated  the storylines that were over the top. Great lines made the relationships stronger, complex, compelling to watch. The lines had heart.

 

Now it's only long speeches that are so fake to me that I can't quite invest emotionally with the characters/storylines. These awful monologues make the interactions very one-sided, cold, annoying.  Not only that but it takes me out of the show because I keep thinking: "Really Shonda? Who talks like that?"

 

Also I think the cast of the earlier seasons had great chemistry in different parings: Bailey with the students; Meredith with Derek but also with her friends; The Chief with Bailey; Burke with George; Mark with Derek; Addison and Callie etc

The chemistry was palpable in the romantic relatioships but also in the non-romantic relationships. Another example: Mer and her stepmom. I was really invested in their scenes.

This "new" cast: Not so much.

Edited August 6, 2015 by braziliangirl

[Nobodysfan]

I think the greatest problem with the show was that in the earlier seasons Grey's had awesome dialogues that seemed like real conversations between people. So the dialogues compensated  the storylines that were over the top. Great lines made the relationships stronger, complex, compelling to watch. The lines had heart.

 

Now it's only long speeches that are so fake to me that I can't quite invest emotionally with the characters/storylines. These awful monologues make the interactions very one-sided, cold, annoying.  Not only that but it takes me out of the show because I keep thinking: "Really Shonda? Who talks like that?"

 

Also I think the cast of the earlier seasons had great chemistry in different parings: Bailey with the students; Meredith with Derek but also with her friends; The Chief with Bailey; Burke with George; Mark with Derek; Addison and Callie etc

The chemistry was palpable in the romantic relatioships but also in the non-romantic relationships. Another example: Mer and her stepmom. I was really invested in their scenes.

This "new" cast: Not so much.

Very true indeed. 

 

They don´t have dialogues, conversations, they have monologues which are long speeches 90% of time.

As for the way they speak /especially women now/, many have commented on it - it´s saying a word full stop another word full stop, awful.

We.Are.Freaking.Superheroes.

I don´t watch Scandal  but I have read people commenting this is the way Washington speaks as what´s her name Olivia? Maybe they all just want to be her even on Greys.

 

I think there is no real chemistry left among the cast, actors always hug each other for media purposes and fans, put smiles on their faces, but how much of it is sincere? I think very little. The original cast had something magical (with the exception of that Golden globe event in S3, one could feel the tension there). There is one exception though - the recent photo posted by Kelly with Sara and Justin was very honest. Those were not fake smiles, but truly genuine.

Edited August 6, 2015 by Season5OwenHuntfan

[kingshearte]

Something else that I missed, originally, was Callie/Hahn.  I always found it a bit far fetched that Callie discovered she was bisexual.  Callie always seemed sexually adventurous, and to have never even been attracted to a woman, and then BAM.  Well, I never really bought it, but I was willing to go along with the fact that she discovered this side of herself with lesbian Hahn.  So I finally watched those episodes, and now I'm even more disbelieving.  Hahn wasn't gay or even bisexual, either?  I found it so silly.  And Callie asking Mark to instruct her in female oral - by performing a tutorial in an on-call room.  Just kind of gross.  If Shonda thought the actresses had amazing chemistry, why couldn't Hahn have been closeted.  It just stretched credulity. 

I think the first part is not necessarily all that far-fetched. While it's true that she's pretty sexually open, she was also raised in a family with pretty strict beliefs about certain things. I could definitely see her having the occasional crush or attraction to another woman, but never acting on it or even acknowledging it to herself. If you've convinced yourself that you're a "normal," straight person, you can tamp down on things pretty hard up to a point, until something pushes you over and you discover this whole other element of who you are.

 

That said, I do agree that two grown women who have never had any real thoughts of lesbianism or bisexuality suddenly discovering it together seems a bit off. If they were teenagers, sure. You're still in discovery mode, and who knows what can happen. A dare to kiss a girl and you find yourself having a Katy Perry moment? Sure. But at their age, it would make a lot more sense if one of them at least knew it about herself, even if it wasn't yet out in the open.

 

And all that said, I will acknowledge that I'm speaking from a pretty hetero position here, so I could be entirely wrong about the likelihood of the whole thing. Maybe it's actually a very common sort of experience.

[CED9]

Sometimes it has to do with a specific person that you find yourself attracted to regardless of what their gender is. You can be open to anything without labeling yourself as gay or bisexual.

The only thing they did REALLY wrong was the Callie needs to screw Mark to prove to herself she isn't gay part and the going to him for lessons on pleasuring a woman part. The Hahn/Callie relationship itself isn't what they did wrong.

Edited August 6, 2015 by CED9

[BaseOps]

I've seen seasons 1 - 8 several times (I own the DVDs), especially 1 - 6, but I've never done a full rewatch of S9 and on. So I started season 9 on Netflix a few weeks ago and I'm just about to finish it. It's an odd season... Alex and Jo's relationship seems to come out of nowhere, it's super forced. Camila is fine, but I just never feel real chemistry between them. The episodes also enforce my belief that Jackson / Stef were never really a couple, they just sort of have sex occasionally.

I totally forgot that S9 was the one that ended with Owen and that kid. Owen is unbearable, and the writing feels like a bad lifetime movie during all of his scenes. They really, really, REALLY drove the point into the ground that Owen needs kids; he treats everyone around him like crap during this time, including Cristina.

I also forgot about Bailey's OCD, but I suppose at least she was given a storyline. Ben really isn't around at all in S9, so they had to come up with something I guess.

The biggest thing for me - I finally see why some people were annoyed by Callie in S9. I love Callie, she's among my favourite characters and has been since she joined the show. I never quite understood why some people were put off by her in S9, but I see now that she was written as sort of pushy and domineering a lot of the time. And it's more apparent to me than ever that Callie and Arizona literally never dealt with any of their issues.

Edited August 13, 2015 by BaseOps

[CED9]

The biggest thing for me - I finally see why some people were annoyed by Callie in S9. I love Callie, she's among my favourite characters and has been since she joined the show. I never quite understood why some people were put off by her in S9, but I see now that she was written as sort of pushy and domineering a lot of the time. And it's more apparent to me than ever that Callie and Arizona literally never dealt with any of their issues.

My issue with how Callie was written in early S9 was that she was almost written as Mark's grieving widow who Arizona should've sucked up her feelings regarding her amputation for and comforted because she was alive and Mark was dead. Then as the season went on they sort of cheapened Callie and Arizona's relationship by having Callie complain about not having sex.

I think they wanted it to be a "pushing Arizona to get better so things could go back to as much normalcy as possible to assuage Callie's guilt" situation, but they went about it the wrong way then backburnered the characters for a couple episodes only for Arizona to sleep with Hilarie Burton then have a S10 info dump where Arizona had a miscarriage during those episodes where C/A weren't doing anything pre-cheating, and it was just a lot of WTF that's never been dealt with.

[BaseOps]

My issue with how Callie was written in early S9 was that she was almost written as Mark's grieving widow who Arizona should've sucked up her feelings regarding her amputation for and comforted because she was alive and Mark was dead. Then as the season went on they sort of cheapened Callie and Arizona's relationship by having Callie complain about not having sex.

I think they wanted it to be a "pushing Arizona to get better so things could go back to as much normalcy as possible to assuage Callie's guilt" situation, but they went about it the wrong way then backburnered the characters for a couple episodes only for Arizona to sleep with Hilarie Burton then have a S10 info dump where Arizona had a miscarriage during those episodes where C/A weren't doing anything pre-cheating, and it was just a lot of WTF that's never been dealt with.

I didn't mind Callie grieving Mark a lot... they were best friends and had a child together, and he was very young, so it's underdstandable. It even helps make sense of why she is so frustrated with Arizona, who got out alive but initially refuses to get out of bed.

You're dead on about how it was all handled though... in the backhalf of the season they have almost nothing to do. They're not fighting or making up or working through anything; they're just existing, and then Boswell shows up. I always forget about that shoe-horned in miscarriage story.

[Deanie87]

I've seen seasons 1 - 8 several times (I own the DVDs), especially 1 - 6, but I've never done a full rewatch of S9 and on. So I started season 9 on Netflix a few weeks ago and I'm just about to finish it. It's an odd season... Alex and Jo's relationship seems to come out of nowhere, it's super forced. Camila is fine, but I just never feel real chemistry between them. The episodes also enforce my belief that Jackson / Stef were never really a couple, they just sort of have sex occasionally.

The biggest thing for me - I finally see why some people were annoyed by Callie in S9. I love Callie, she's among my favourite characters and has been since she joined the show. I never quite understood why some people were put off by her in S9, but I see now that she was written as sort of pushy and domineering a lot of the time. And it's more apparent to me than ever that Callie and Arizona literally never dealt with any of their issues.

 

I thought that the writers did a pretty good job of showing the progress from friends to more than friends between Alex and Jo (especially considering we knew from the start that she was going to be his new love interest), but I did think that the Jason stuff came out of nowhere and then completely ended abruptly, never to mentioned again.  That part wasn't handled well at all.

 

I am one who has been very annoyed by Callie in the past.  Part of it is that she has a strong personality and for me its a case of a little goes a long way.  I like her sense of humor and her ortho badassery, but the constant over-sharing and unprofessional outbursts about her love life are just too much for me.  I think I"m supposed to find it funny or cute, but I never have.  But even with those things, I didn't outright dislike her until she started getting at least one centric episode per season and a huge amount of focus.  I guess this started with the musical episode (not sure what season that is) and then went on just about every single season up to and including last season (her centric with AZ).  There are just too many characters on the show for that sort of thing, and I got really, really tired of her being everywhere all the time, when some of my favorites got absolutely nothing.  And, yes, it bothered me that she was always the put upon victim and AZ was always the horrible bad guy, despite Callie's constant bullying and steamrolling.

 

The last half of this past season was much better for me in terms of her character.  Not only was she backburnered more than she has been in the last 4 seasons, but we actually got to see AZ's perspective on things for once and to see AZ as a character outside of Callie and outside of being just the cheating bitch. Unfortunately, I think that this was yet another side effect of McDreamy-gate and we will back to Callie-palooza in season 12.

[CED9]

I am one who has been very annoyed by Callie in the past. Part of it is that she has a strong personality and for me its a case of a little goes a long way. I like her sense of humor and her ortho badassery, but the constant over-sharing and unprofessional outbursts about her love life are just too much for me. I think I"m supposed to find it funny or cute, but I never have. But even with those things, I didn't outright dislike her until she started getting at least one centric episode per season and a huge amount of focus. I guess this started with the musical episode (not sure what season that is) and then went on just about every single season up to and including last season (her centric with AZ). There are just too many characters on the show for that sort of thing, and I got really, really tired of her being everywhere all the time, when some of my favorites got absolutely nothing. And, yes, it bothered me that she was always the put upon victim and AZ was always the horrible bad guy, despite Callie's constant bullying and steamrolling.

The last half of this past season was much better for me in terms of her character. Not only was she backburnered more than she has been in the last 4 seasons, but we actually got to see AZ's perspective on things for once and to see AZ as a character outside of Callie and outside of being just the cheating bitch. Unfortunately, I think that this was yet another side effect of McDreamy-gate and we will back to Callie-palooza in season 12.

I'm kind of of the mind that they wrote the Callie/Arizona relationship in a way that they wanted to show that Callie wasn't the desperate pushover that she was when she was with George, but they took it too far, and made Arizona just accept everything so Callie could still be the poor victim.

I sort of feel the way about Sara that I do about Kevin in that they act too theater-y for me that it's uncomfortable to watch on TV. The OTT facials/emoting are so meh to me seeing it on TV.

[Marni]

I thought that the writers did a pretty good job of showing the progress from friends to more than friends between Alex and Jo (especially considering we knew from the start that she was going to be his new love interest), but I did think that the Jason stuff came out of nowhere and then completely ended abruptly, never to mentioned again.  That part wasn't handled well at all.

I hate the way they handled the Jason story with a passion. It just felt so unnecessary and cheap to make Jason into an abuser in five seconds flat so Jo could run to Alex to protect her and show what a great guy Alex is in comparison. If the writers wanted to tell a domestic abuse storyline (which they did better in S5 with the little girl who shot her father) do it properly- tell the victims story, acknowledge the trauma and explore the emotional aftermath. Don't use violence against a woman to further a romantic plot and then drop it, that is so gross.

 

I also thought it ended super weird with Jo beating him so badly he needed brain surgery and Alex threatening him.

[gator12]

I hated that story b/c 1) it was unfortunate that the black man was suppose to be scary when in he's having an argument w/ his significant other who is a white woman and the white man was the knight and shinning armor. And 2) The abuser was Jo but no one was mad b/c she's a woman who beat up a man, the lesson was a man is suppose to take it and not report it in order to be a man.