S07.E05: Eastwatch

[Constantinople]

12 minutes ago, Michikhaleesi said:

Speaking of Benjen, could he possibly join in with "The Magnificent Seven" and turn out to be the wight they bring down south?

That's one way to Make the Eight

In any case, given Jon's top knot, I think they should be The Seven Samurai

[GrailKing]

5 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

In any case, given Jon's top knot, I think they should be The Seven Samurai

Well they are, just English speaking US western Version

Edited August 16, 2017 by GrailKing

[YaddaYadda]

31 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Sorry......it's not "my conclusion". 

Those are the very words of George R. R. Martin.   The Lord of Light creates "fire wights".   The Lord of Light resurrected Jon Snow. 

That is all we are certain of at this point.  Per a canon source.....the author of the story.

The Lord of Light demands blood sacrifice. And Beric has been brought back with the kiss of life, but the show also mucked him up by having him be a super normal guy with just a patch on his eye. Jon in the show is not behaving abnormally and he was not brought back the same way Beric was. Mel had a whole ritual around him. So at the very least, the way Jon was brought back and the way Beric was brought back are kind of different. 

And there's no way he's being brought back the same way Beric or Lady Stoneheart were brought back in the books. Jon is warged into Ghost. We had a whole chapter and exposition about second life, warging and how Veramyr pushed someone who was warged into the wolf he wanted out of it. 

30 minutes ago, screamin said:

Does Beric Dondarrion eat?

He's not supposed to eat or sleep. At least in the books. I don't remember what they did with him on the show. Honestly, the only great thing about Beric on the show is his voice. I think he has a very awesome voice and I wish he could read me while I eat ice cream. 

Edited August 16, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[Chris24601]

4 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

Beric Dondarrion (and therefore Jon Snow) is a fire wight.  Which is somehow different than an ice wight.

http://wikiofthrones.com/9626/george-r-r-martin-reveals-beric-dondarrion-wight-animated-fire/

Jon has been seen to eat and drink on the show and has bled at least a little from superficial wounds during the Battle of the Bastards. He's fully alive on the show and will be in the books as well.

I think the issue is the presumption that Jon will be raised in the books exactly as he was on the show. I think though that the show just took a narrative shortcut by using just Melisandre because they never bothered to define Fire Wights on the show... Beric was messed up simply because he'd been  brought back a lot. Likewise, the show left out that Jon is a warg (Northern/Ice magic)... which is likely THE reason he's able to return to full life instead of having his soul burned away ("Fire consumes, Ice preserves" are also words Martin has put out there).

These are some distinctly different variables in the books that aren't part of  the show. In addition to Jon being a warg, the same book he died in opened with a warg taking on a Second Life by shifting his soul into an animal when their own body died. Likewise, Melisandre had a vision of Jon as a man, then a wolf then a man again.

Narratively, I think those were included to provide the clues as to how Jon would be able to fully return to life. Jon will be resurrected not just through fire magic, but through a one-time mix of fire magic and ice magic (as befits him also being a child of ice and fire and that it keeps him in metaphorical balance between the two elements, something I think is going to be fundamentally important to the endgame). His soul will be preserved in Ghost until his human body is restored by the fire magic and this combo keeps him from become either an ice or fire wight but instead to return fully to life.

The show though never went into the nature of fire wights and never made Jon a warg like he was in the books (since they wanted Bran to be more special) so they took a narrative shortcut and brought him back just via Melisandre's magic without any other ramifications because on the show there ARE no fire wights.

I have no doubt that in the books, just like on the show, Jon will be restored to full life via some loophole related to his unique ancestry.

[Nanrad]

52 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

ARYA hates Sansa because she is feminine. I'm not talking about the audience.

Or she hates Sansa for prioritizing her beautiful prince and fairytales above her family. Even if you argue that Sansa had no choice with Micah, Sansa was still clearly enamored with Joffrey and got upset and arya for teasing and making jabs at Joffrey. Her opinion of Joffrey didn't change until he started behaving badly with her.

last season, arya befriended and felt sorrow for that feminine actress. 

Edited August 16, 2017 by Nanrad

[YaddaYadda]

22 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Jon has been seen to eat and drink on the show and has bled at least a little from superficial wounds during the Battle of the Bastards. He's fully alive on the show and will be in the books as well.

I think the issue is the presumption that Jon will be raised in the books exactly as he was on the show. I think though that the show just took a narrative shortcut by using just Melisandre because they never bothered to define Fire Wights on the show... Beric was messed up simply because he'd been  brought back a lot. Likewise, the show left out that Jon is a warg (Northern/Ice magic)... which is likely THE reason he's able to return to full life instead of having his soul burned away ("Fire consumes, Ice preserves" are also words Martin has put out there).

These are some distinctly different variables in the books that aren't part of  the show. In addition to Jon being a warg, the same book he died in opened with a warg taking on a Second Life by shifting his soul into an animal when their own body died. Likewise, Melisandre had a vision of Jon as a man, then a wolf then a man again.

Narratively, I think those were included to provide the clues as to how Jon would be able to fully return to life. Jon will be resurrected not just through fire magic, but through a one-time mix of fire magic and ice magic (as befits him also being a child of ice and fire and that it keeps him in metaphorical balance between the two elements, something I think is going to be fundamentally important to the endgame). His soul will be preserved in Ghost until his human body is restored by the fire magic and this combo keeps him from become either an ice or fire wight but instead to return fully to life.

The show though never went into the nature of fire wights and never made Jon a warg like he was in the books (since they wanted Bran to be more special) so they took a narrative shortcut and brought him back just via Melisandre's magic without any other ramifications because on the show there ARE no fire wights.

I have no doubt that in the books, just like on the show, Jon will be restored to full life via some loophole related to his unique ancestry.

I think when it comes to Jon and being resurrected in the books, we don't need to look further than how Dany hatched her dragons (and her metaphorical rebirth). The parallel between the two is there. I'd say the parallel between 3 people actually.

Edited August 16, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[Blonde Gator]

29 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

did he? or is that just what we assume?

If there wasn't a White Walker or a CotF in the room when Jon was resurrected, yes, it was the Lord of Light's magic.   The only alternative is that everyone possesses such powerful magic by wishing and hoping that Jon was resurrected by Ser Davos's desires.    Where else in this story has any human been resurrected from death to life without either the Others' magic or the LoL's magic?  (And Drogo doesn't count, because he wasn't yet dead). 

[TaurusRose]

36 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Sorry......it's not "my conclusion". 

Those are the very words of George R. R. Martin.   The Lord of Light creates "fire wights".   The Lord of Light resurrected Jon Snow. 

That is all we are certain of at this point.  Per a canon source.....the author of the story.

GRRM gave a very specific physical description of fire wights in the article you posted.  I agree that the description is canon, but it doesn't describe Jon Snow.  If fans want to apply the traits of a fire wight to Jon, that's fine.  I simply disagree based on what GRRM said.

[GrailKing]

17 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

Or she hates Sansa for prioritizing her beautiful prince and fairytales above her family. Even if you argue that Sansa had no choice with Micah, Sansa was still clearly enamored with Joffrey and got upset and arya for teasing and making jabs at Joffrey. Her opinion of Joffrey didn't change until he started behaving badly with her.

last season, arya befriended and felt sorrow for that feminine actress. 

Her opinion of him changed before traitors bridge, where she almost sent him over, before the Hound stopped her.

[Nanrad]

1 hour ago, screamin said:

Arya is, it's true, not visibly infuriated...she's not raising her voice, she's cool and calm. That doesn't mean that she's not very angry - this is what I meant by seething. She tells Sansa in so many words that she thinks that Sansa is deliberately letting the lords insult Jon and get away with it because she wants to suck up to them to take Jon's power for herself. She thinks Sansa is betraying her beloved Jon - the one that she still loves most in all the world. Do you think she can think that and just be a little miffed about it? She's furious, and we can't judge her current calm as a gauge of her not being angry. As someone else said, she was just as calm and smiling when she confronted Frey before cutting his throat.

IMO, she showed that anger by the passive-aggressive jab about moving into their parents' bedroom. Sansa correctly perceived the anger behind that jab and brought it out into the open. You say Sansa "didn't have to engage her at that moment, which she really doesn't." But why should Sansa avoid finding out why Arya's annoyed at her? She has no idea what she's done to irritate her. And as you say, Arya doesn't seem particularly agitated or severely upset. Why should Sansa walk on eggshells around her sister who has seemed quite affectionate toward her till now?

Well, she found out why walking on eggshells might be a good idea for her to do around Arya. And IMO, I don't think Sansa's somehow to blame for finding that out. It's vital that she knows this. IIRC, you say it's understandable that Sansa, while having a perfectly sincere desire to hand the North back to Jon's leadership when he returns and doesn't want him to die, might have the idea she could be as good or better a ruler than Jon and even occasionally have flashes of really liking the idea, even if she puts it aside in horror and tries not to think about it. Arya, though? Arya doesn't think it's understandable. Arya thinks it means Sansa is at bottom still the same girl who wants the best for herself over everyone else, who thinks 'she's better than everyone else', and is therefore liable to betray Jon to take the power for herself. Arya thinks Sansa is an active threat to Jon, and both girls know who Arya loves best.

If Sansa took your advice and just ignored Arya's passive-aggressive jab, and Arya didn't do more to bring her anger to Sansa's attention? What would happen is that Arya would continue to suspect Sansa of treachery toward Jon, take every polite response of Sansa to a complaining lord as further evidence of this, and get further played by LF putting more 'evidence' in Arya's way, all without Sansa having the slightest idea of the terrible suspicions Arya is harboring toward her. LF's clearly been playing Arya for awhile - he asked for that message awhile ago, he knows Arya's been suspecting him and following him around (he even managed to sneak up unperceived on Arya the expert sneaker), he is clearly aware of just what sort of suspicions Arya harbors toward her sister and is expertly fostering them (Arya's poker face isn't as good as she thinks it is.) The sisters desperately need to communicate with each other about what's going on and get a good handle on it, and I'm not going to fault Sansa for realizing there's a problem and opening communications.

Whether arya is miffed or super fucking angry, if Sansa can read people as well as claimed, she would've handled that situation differently. Sansa wasn't genuinely curious to be knowledgeable and/or correct the situation, she wanted to know what arya was upset about to shut it down. Just because someone is angry doesn't mean you need to address them right then and now. It seriously doesn't. Some people need time to cool

down. And, again, your characterization of her initial anger vs what was actually shown, are two different things. A few weeks ago, I spoke with my sister who clearly angry. I quickly hung up, and then addressed the issue at another time. Effective communication is knowing when to choose your battles and not addressing everything for your sake and benefit when you want to opposed to when is best. Who said she had to walk on eggshells. Those are your words not mine.

no, I think Sansa engaged at the wrong time and doesn't have to explain all around eggshells when it comes to arya.

no, that's not my advice, that's your, yet again, misconstrued reading of what I've said. I've literally never said that. I said Sansa should've addressed arya at another time when she calmed down. Once again, this is completely different from what you accuse me of saying and, again, changed the conversation. 

How is it terrible if Sansa DOES feel that way???

LF hasn't been playing arya for a while. 

Sansa wasn't trying to effectively communicate with arya tho. Lol

2 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Her opinion of him changed before traitors bridge, where she almost sent him over, before the Hound stopped her.

Was arya there for that?

[GrailKing]

3 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

Whether arya is miffed or super fucking angry, if Sansa can read people as well as claimed, she would've handled that situation differently. Sansa wasn't genuinely curious to be knowledgeable and/or correct the situation, she wanted to know what arya was upset about to shut it down. Just because someone is angry doesn't mean you need to address them right then and now. It seriously doesn't. Some people need time to cool

down. And, again, your characterization of her initial anger vs what was actually shown, are two different things. A few weeks ago, I spoke with my sister who clearly angry. I quickly hung up, and then addressed the issue at another time. Effective communication is knowing when to choose your battles and not addressing everything for your sake and benefit when you want to opposed to when is best. Who said she had to walk on eggshells. Those are your words not mine.

no, I think Sansa engaged at the wrong time and doesn't have to explain all around eggshells when it comes to arya.

no, that's not my advice, that's your, yet again, misconstrued reading of what I've said. I've literally never said that. I said Sansa should've addressed arya at another time when she calmed down. Once again, this is completely different from what you accuse me of saying and, again, changed the conversation. 

How is it terrible if Sansa DOES feel that way???

LF hasn't been playing arya for a while. 

Sansa wasn't trying to effectively communicate with arya tho. Lol

Was arya there for that?

No, she was with Yoren.

[Blonde Gator]

28 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

The Lord of Light demands blood sacrifice. And Beric has been brought back with the kiss of life, but the show also mucked him up by having him be a super normal guy with just a patch on his eye. Jon in the show is not behaving abnormally and he was not brought back the same way Beric was. Mel had a whole ritual around him. So at the very least, the way Jon was brought back and the way Beric was brought back are kind of different. 

And there's no way he's being brought back the same way Beric or Lady Stoneheart were brought back in the books. Jon is warged into Ghost. We had a whole chapter and exposition about second life, warging and how Veramyr pushed someone who was warged into the wolf he wanted out of it. 

He's not supposed to eat or sleep. At least in the books. I don't remember what they did with him on the show. Honestly, the only great thing about Beric on the show is his voice. I think he has a very awesome voice and I wish he could read me while I eat ice cream. 

The fact remains that both Thoros of Myr and Mellisandre are priest/priestess of the Lord of Light.  And GRRM is on record as saying "Fire Wight".   That article I grabbed earlier was merely the first one that came up when I googled it.  There are hundreds of other articles about this interview on the interwebs.  It's GRRM's story, so I trust what he says.

To me, the implication is that the Children of the Forest created the White Walkers, who, were first brought to a "new life" using a human of Stark heritage (who possessed warging abilities)....allows the WW's to create thralls, mindless creatures, capable of being given a goal.....killing all things living.  "Ice based" magic, if you will.  So Ice Magic is apparently able to be pushed down and outward (dead humans, dead animals).

The way I see it is that warging is a rare human ability, that manifests in people of specific bloodlines (Starks, and perhaps the Reeds, who I suspect may have intermarried with the CotF in the distant past).  There are other humans who have been gifted with the ability to see the future....specifically, those of Velaryian blood.

There's yet another magic being loosed upon the world....fire based magic.  Blood magic (although the CotF's magic is also blood-based, IMO).   But out of Fire Magic, we have dragons, and apparently resurrections where there is no warging necessary....allowing "fire wights" to be brought back with the same self-actualization that they had in "real" life.  No warging necessary for a fire wight's purpose.  My suspicion is that "Fire Magic" is a separate thing from Ice Magic....and in competition with it as well....and that Fire Magic originated in Essos, rather than Westeros.

Thus far, in the books (and to a lesser extent on the series) we've seen several resurrections:

Beric:  Brought back by the Lord of Light, seven times.  Each time he is diminished.

Varamyr Six Skins:  A warg, but wargs who inhabit their living warg subjects eventually are overcome by their host being(s).  His magic is Ice Magic, and Westerosi based.

Jon Snow:  Brought back once, IMO, by the Lord of Light.  He may be THE special case, because he's not yet begun to deteriorate, except to become far more himself, broody and introspective.

Benjen:  A special case, killed by the WW'ers (Ice Wight), but brought back to a semblance of awareness by the CotF.   Who knows here????

So....that's my theory of how things stand, for now.  But GRRM said "fire wight" for a reason.  For now, my interpretation is that Ice and Fire Magic are two different things, and that they must unite in order to save the world.

[Macbeth]

16 hours ago, doram said:

While Cersei sits in King's Landing, so disconnected from the battle that she accused Bronn - who saved her literal fuckbrother's life - of treason, Dany was out there in the field, risking her life alongside her army.

What's with the hatred of Bronn?  He is one of the best fighters in the kingdom, that's why Jaime has him as his bodyguard.  If he wasn't any good he wouldn't be by his side. 

Does Cersei ever think before she bites.

[Blonde Gator]

7 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

What's with the hatred of Bronn?  He is one of the best fighters in the kingdom, that's why Jaime has him as his bodyguard.  If he wasn't any good he wouldn't be by his side. 

Does Cersei ever think before she bites.

LOL!  Did you really say that?  GREAT COMMENT!

Does Cersei EVER think? 

I "think" not.  She is the embodiment of reaction, and almost every time (well, with the exception of this season, where she has super magical plot armor), her reaction is always met by an equal and far superior reaction, which continue to sink her (*Waves* at High Sparrow).  If I had to give Cersei an emoticon.....it would be a gigantic backhoe!

Cersei is the villian we love to hate, or hate to love, it makes no difference.  Lena Hedy is an amazing actress, and has brought Cersei Lannister to fantastic life on the show.  Having said that, I'd really like to slap her (Hedy) silly for her ridiculous over-emoting of her words.  "Enemies to the East-tah, Enemies to the West-tah".  Have another jug of wine, Cersei, and STOP slurring your bloody words!

[WearyTraveler]

On 8/14/2017 at 6:18 PM, RandyRanderson said:

Did the wight reanimate in Castle Black?  I thought Jon said in this episode it got through the Wall (not sure how).

When Jon and Sam went to say their NW vows beyond the Wall, Ghost went with them and as they were heading back to Castle Black, Ghost bolted and came back with a cadaver's hand.  They followed him and found two brothers of the NW who had been in Benjen's ranging party.  They carried the bodies back to Castle Black, so, if magic is at work in defending the Wall, the wights got through because the brothers carried them (just as Brandon got through because Sam said the words in front of the gate and it opened for him).  Dywen notes that Othor (one of the dead men) didn't have blue eyes before, so, he was a wight before he went through the Wall.  They also note the black hands.

Once inside the castle, Othor is reanimated and tries to kill Lord Commander Mormont.  Ghost attacks him, but he keeps coming.  Jon slashes him with Longclaw (Valyrian Steel), and still, it keeps coming.  Finally, it's the fire that breaks out in the room that kills it.

 

On 8/14/2017 at 8:28 PM, henripootel said:

Yeah, but are we sure they're gonna do much against the dead?  If I recall from Hardhome, John's Valarian steel sword (which shatters White Walkers) cut up the dead pretty much like any other sharp blade.  

Valyrian Steel can kill White Walkers, but not wights. Also, the dagger that Sam used to slay the White Walker that was coming for them after the battle at the Fist was made of dragonglass.  It is said that Valyrian Steel may contain dragonglass (maybe they ground the stone into dust to make it, or used dragon fire to liquefy it, like lava, and then mixed it with molten steel; nobody knows how to make that metal anymore), which is probably why Sam was able to slay the WW with it.  But, dragonglass hasn't been shown to kill a Wight.

I think WW can probably survive fire, but not Valyrian Steel / Dragonglass, while the reverse is true for wights.

 

On 8/15/2017 at 0:22 AM, Willowy said:

I read through the first 10 pages here, but skipped through after that - has anyone brought up Drogon's obvious intelligence and cognition with a lot of the shit that's going on around him? I don't know if he reads Dany's mind or what but he practically introduced her when she was addressing the Lannister troops. When he deliberately smashed the scorpion I was like... what? He's a mythic beast and a powerful flying reptile - but how does he know to do that? Then his recognition of Jon, and him reining himself in and not breathing fire until Dany gives the signal, and knowing exactly who and what she wants torched?

It just seems to me he's got quite a lot on the ball, like maybe much more intelligence than a horse or dog. Once and for all, ARE the dragons telepathic?

I think they bond to their riders, like the Stark children bond with their wolves. The wolves sensed Lady and Greywind's deaths, without being warged, so can a dragon, I think, bond and understand its rider.  There's also instinct and sensory perceptions that must be heightened for a dragon.  Take a dog, for example, they can smell changes in the adrenaline level of their owners, and will react to that.  When I walk my dog late at night, I know a part of me is on alert and my dog is too, without me having to telepathically communicate with him.  If regular animals can read body language and hormone changes so well, mythical animals, such as dragons and direwolves, can probably do it even better.

 

On 8/15/2017 at 0:30 AM, areca said:

So my friend pointed out that the entire Fellowship of the Wight is unnecessary.  Simply take a PoW or criminal sentenced to death north.  Put him in a cage.  Perform the necessary execution and wait overnight for him to wight-ify.  Take him back south.  In and out in 24 hours or less.

I believe the show has established that a White Walker needs to be present (or at least really close by) to re-animate the body (see the Night's King arms when he reanimates the dead at Hardhome).  The message Jon received said the army of the dead was marching south, so, it's very unlikely some lone Walker is going to venture out of formation to reanimate some corpse close to the Wall.  If the objective is to capture a wight, the best bet is to march toward the army of the dead and hope that they send scouting parties ahead of their main forces, and they can trap one then.

 

On 8/15/2017 at 3:23 PM, Francie said:

First, Ned was such a dolt. He's the idiot who started this all.  If he had contacted Mormont and had the boy's claim investigated, once it was confirmed, he could have had the ear of his bff, Robert, and dealt with the WW in a uniform, consolidated matter years ago. Imagine the brain and brawn power that could have been dedicated to that effort.  Stannis and Tywin.   Davos, Varys, and Tyrion.  The Hound and Beric and the rest of what would become the brotherhood. Instead it was all "off with his head" and "gee, he must have been imagining things, even though he risked this very execution by running."

White Walkers haven't been seen in over a thousand years in Westeros.  So much so, that even the Night's Watch has forgotten all about them, in the words of Jeor Mormont, its Lord Commander at the time of the events of which you speak.  The Maesters, who are considered the epitome of knowledge, don't believe that they even exist (see Maester Luwin telling Bran that those things don't exist).  Meanwhile, the NW has had many deserters in the recent past, mainly because the quality of the recruits has diminished considerably.  It is the duty of every Lord in the North to catch and behead said deserters, who, off course will try to justify their desertion in any way possible.  For all anybody knows, Gared was already a little insane before he was sent to the Wall (not the first time the mentally ill have ended up there), and then continued to lose his mind.  This wasn't the first deserter Ned had dealt with, and it wouldn't have been his last if he had not traveled south.

But, despite all this, Ned is supposed to have some sort of crystal ball, precognition, or heightened intuition to tell him that this deserter in particular, babbling about things that according to everyone else in Westeros, including the keepers of all knowledge and history, don't even exist, was different than all the rest.  That this one was telling the truth, not a bunch of lies to save himself like so many others.  That this deserter, with the bug eyes, and incoherent words was not a little crazy or pretending to be crazy to save himself.  This one might be telling the truth!

 

For the sake of argument let's say that Ned kept him prisoner and sent a raven to Mormont, what do you suppose Mormont's response would have been? Keep in mind that he had to be attacked by a wight in his own bedroom to start thinking about this threat seriously.  I'm going to guess he would have sent a raven back saying something along the lines of "why haven't you executed the foolish traitor yet?".  And then everything else would have happened the same way.

On 8/15/2017 at 7:00 PM, KarenTargaryen said:

is there anything that isn't LF's fault :) hee

The first Long Night?

On 8/15/2017 at 8:29 PM, TarotQueen said:

LF held the dagger to Ned's throat too, but he did it on behalf of Cersei/Joffrey.

No, he made them think he was doing it on their behalf, but LF plays for LF, not for anyone else.  He did that because he wanted to take Ned out of "the board" as he calls it.  And he wanted Ned out because he married Catelyn and he (LF) never got over that.  It was his long awaited revenge against house Stark and house Tully for the slights he believes they imparted on him.

 

On 8/15/2017 at 9:01 PM, Oscirus said:

I'm putting  85 percent of the blame on the Starks, it's  their penchant  for doing stupid  shit that causes the Chao that littlefinger revels in.

We're down to arya sansa and Rickon as on screen Starks that didn't  cause catastrophic  events

No matter how many times I read this take on the facts, I still can't understand why anyone would blame the good guys, the ones trying to do the right thing, the just thing, the honorable thing for the acts of the ones who are clearly evil, cruel sociopaths.  It's like blaming the victim for being raped, instead of the rapist.  How are LF, Cersei, Joffrey, Tywin, and Walder Frey's despicable actions the Starks' fault?  Those guys did cruel, despicable, evil things because they wanted something they didn't have (riches, recognition, power), but they are not to blame for that, no. It's as if they didn't exercise their own free will to choose that particular path.  They will be who they are forever, like a wild animal.  Apparently, Walder Frey didn't have any other choice but the Red Wedding.  He couldn't have accepted Robb's apology, he couldn't have demanded more, if he was so petty. He just had to have everyone murdered, because that is who he is.  It's not Walder Frey's fault that he is a mean, spiteful, revengeful, despicable asshole; it's Robb's fault for trying to do the right thing after having taken Jeynne's virginity.

Sigh!

_______________________

Sansa vs. Jon vs. Arya / Daenery's cruelty or lackthereof

A while back, when I was reading the spoilers for this episode and the ones before it, I kept thinking that some of these characterizations were so wrong when compared to the book counterparts.  Like Sansa thinks fondly of Arya, she even imagines naming one of her children after her sister, and she also thinks fondly of Jon.  Arya also thinks fondly of her sister in the books.  Daenerys kills people, but she's conflicted about it, and she does feel compassion and wants the lives of those who follow her to be better.  And she's never given herself any of her many titles, her followers did that.

So, I keep thinking, what is the purpose of doing these silly rivalries in the show?  Who's going to believe any of it? It's all fake drama. Then I come to the forums and see people arguing so strongly that, apparently, you can't be a fan of both characters.  You have to be with one or the other.  Daenerys has to either be a cruel tyrant or a saint. Arya has to be a murderous, sociopath bitch or a traumatized child.  Sansa has to be a brilliant mastermind or an idiot.

And then I have my answer.  That's why they do it.  They know there's no middle ground for some fans and the discussions are endless.  Justifying every act their favorite does (good or bad) and vilifying everything the other character does (even when it's a good thing).  I wish fandom didn't fall for it so easily.

Edited August 17, 2017 by WearyTraveler

[screamin]

20 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

The fact remains that both Thoros of Myr and Mellisandre are priest/priestess of the Lord of Light.  And GRRM is on record as saying "Fire Wight".   That article I grabbed earlier was merely the first one that came up when I googled it.  There are hundreds of other articles about this interview on the interwebs.  It's GRRM's story, so I trust what he says.

To me, the implication is that the Children of the Forest created the White Walkers, who, were first brought to a "new life" using a human of Stark heritage (who possessed warging abilities)....allows the WW's to create thralls, mindless creatures, capable of being given a goal.....killing all things living.  "Ice based" magic, if you will.  So Ice Magic is apparently able to be pushed down and outward (dead humans, dead animals).

The way I see it is that warging is a rare human ability, that manifests in people of specific bloodlines (Starks, and perhaps the Reeds, who I suspect may have intermarried with the CotF in the distant past).  There are other humans who have been gifted with the ability to see the future....specifically, those of Velaryian blood.

There's yet another magic being loosed upon the world....fire based magic.  Blood magic (although the CotF's magic is also blood-based, IMO).   But out of Fire Magic, we have dragons, and apparently resurrections where there is no warging necessary....allowing "fire wights" to be brought back with the same self-actualization that they had in "real" life.  No warging necessary for a fire wight's purpose.  My suspicion is that "Fire Magic" is a separate thing from Ice Magic....and in competition with it as well....and that Fire Magic originated in Essos, rather than Westeros.

Thus far, in the books (and to a lesser extent on the series) we've seen several resurrections:

Beric:  Brought back by the Lord of Light, seven times.  Each time he is diminished.

Varamyr Six Skins:  A warg, but wargs who inhabit their living warg subjects eventually are overcome by their host being(s).  His magic is Ice Magic, and Westerosi based.

Jon Snow:  Brought back once, IMO, by the Lord of Light.  He may be THE special case, because he's not yet begun to deteriorate, except to become far more himself, broody and introspective.

Benjen:  A special case, killed by the WW'ers (Ice Wight), but brought back to a semblance of awareness by the CotF.   Who knows here????

So....that's my theory of how things stand, for now.  But GRRM said "fire wight" for a reason.  For now, my interpretation is that Ice and Fire Magic are two different things, and that they must unite in order to save the world.

Don't forget the Mountain. WTF is that about?!

Edited August 16, 2017 by screamin

[Mabinogia]

3 hours ago, taurusrose said:

Hmm. So was it Sansa's need to protect herself when she told Arya she had to call her Lady of Winterfell?  That probably rubbed Arya the wrong way right off the bat; I sure thought it was high-handed.  Who does that?

I'm pretty sure that was a joke. Sadly Arya has no sense of humor anymore so maybe she did take it literally.

[Blonde Gator]

46 minutes ago, screamin said:

Don't forget the Mountain. WTF is that about?!

Weird science by Qybern......who the Hell knows?

[MrWhyt]

1 hour ago, Blonde Gator said:

If there wasn't a White Walker or a CotF in the room when Jon was resurrected, yes, it was the Lord of Light's magic.   The only alternative is that everyone possesses such powerful magic by wishing and hoping that Jon was resurrected by Ser Davos's desires.    Where else in this story has any human been resurrected from death to life without either the Others' magic or the LoL's magic?  (And Drogo doesn't count, because he wasn't yet dead).

alternative: a previously unseen entity resurrected Jon. Just because we've only seen the 2 forms of resurrection doesn't mean there isn't a third.

[Pogojoco]

6 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

alternative: a previously unseen entity resurrected Jon. Just because we've only seen the 2 forms of resurrection doesn't mean there isn't a third.

Not on the show, but Varymyr Sixskins is a warg and basically lives on when he moves to or tries to move to another living creature. In the prologue of ADWD, as he's dying,  he thinks about taking over the body of a woman named Thistle. 

[GrailKing]

8 minutes ago, Pogojoco said:

Not on the show, but Varymyr Sixskins is a warg and basically lives on when he moves to or tries to move to another living creature. In the prologue of ADWD, as he's dying,  he thinks about taking over the body of a woman named Thistle. 

Yeah he did more then that , he tried the mind rape and she rejected him.

[Hecate7]

1 hour ago, Nanrad said:

Or she hates Sansa for prioritizing her beautiful prince and fairytales above her family. Even if you argue that Sansa had no choice with Micah, Sansa was still clearly enamored with Joffrey and got upset and arya for teasing and making jabs at Joffrey. Her opinion of Joffrey didn't change until he started behaving badly with her.

last season, arya befriended and felt sorrow for that feminine actress. 

Arya bonded with a Kat substitute, yes. But she hated Sansa long before any prince appeared on the horizon, and long before there was Mycah or Needle. If Arya had a handful of mud to throw, she'd throw it at Sansa, before she ever had any reason. She loathed Sansa's enjoyment of poetry and pretty dresses, her talent with her needle, and her ability to do what Kat and their Septa wanted her to do the way they wanted her to do it. She had a real need to destroy any small joy Sansa took in life, especially if it was related to appearance or creativity. She hated her traditional femininity, and it could even be argued that she rejected traditional femininity because she disliked Sansa so much she didn't want to be like her in any way.

Baelish is obviously trying to set something up between the girls. I'm not sure why he would want Arya to kill Sansa, but that seems to be what he's setting up.

[GrailKing]

2 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

Arya bonded with a Kat substitute, yes. But she hated Sansa long before any prince appeared on the horizon, and long before there was Mycah or Needle. If Arya had a handful of mud to throw, she'd throw it at Sansa, before she ever had any reason. She loathed Sansa's enjoyment of poetry and pretty dresses, her talent with her needle, and her ability to do what Kat and their Septa wanted her to do the way they wanted her to do it. She had a real need to destroy any small joy Sansa took in life, especially if it was related to appearance or creativity. She hated her traditional femininity, and it could even be argued that she rejected traditional femininity because she disliked Sansa so much she didn't want to be like her in any way.

Baelish is obviously trying to set something up between the girls. I'm not sure why he would want Arya to kill Sansa, but that seems to be what he's setting up.

It's one of his rules to Sansa, always keep your hands clean.

The fact that Lady was killed by Daddy Stark echoes of a repeat of another wolf dying at the hands of a family member and the tragedy both victims are innocent. 

[Hecate7]

Just now, GrailKing said:

It's one of his rules to Sansa, always keep your hands clean.

The fact that Lady was killed by Daddy Stark echoes of a repeat of another wolf dying at the hands of a family member and the tragedy both victims are innocent. 

Damn. You have something there.

[Blonde Gator]

29 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

alternative: a previously unseen entity resurrected Jon. Just because we've only seen the 2 forms of resurrection doesn't mean there isn't a third.

Five books and 7.4 seasons into it.....AND we have a new diety? 

Okay.  Show me your hand in support of this theory.

[Macbeth]

9 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

Arya bonded with a Kat substitute, yes. But she hated Sansa long before any prince appeared on the horizon, and long before there was Mycah or Needle.

On the show didn't Sansa share a story with Tyrion about Arya putting cow pads in her bed?

Ah siblings.

[MrWhyt]

Just now, Blonde Gator said:

Five books and 7.4 seasons into it.....AND we have a new diety? 

Okay.  Show me your hand in support of this theory.

I never said new, I said unseen. There are at least seven more alternatives. The theory that the lord of light resurrected jon is based on very little evidence.

[screamin]

15 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

Baelish is obviously trying to set something up between the girls. I'm not sure why he would want Arya to kill Sansa, but that seems to be what he's setting up.

IMO, he's trying to get Arya angry enough at Sansa and convinced enough of Sansa's treachery to get her to do something against her that would prove to Sansa (and quite probably the council of lords, if he can manage it) that Arya is dangerous and must be got rid of. He wants Sansa alone, not with family supporting her and loving her, because that keeps her out of his influence and power - hence his attempt to chisel away at her relationship with Bran and Jon (both of whom were not having that shit) as well as Arya (at which he's currently having more success).

Edited August 17, 2017 by screamin

[Blonde Gator]

10 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

I never said new, I said unseen. There are at least seven more alternatives. The theory that the lord of light resurrected jon is based on very little evidence.

Okay, let's see some evidence of these seven unseen alternatives. 

[MrWhyt]

3 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Okay, let's see some evidence of these seven unseen alternatives.

the same evidence that there is for the lord of light. The resurrection of Baeric Dondareon.

[Blonde Gator]

2 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

the same evidence that there is for the lord of light. The resurrection of Baeric Dondareon.

Dondarion credits the Lord of Light, as does Thoros of Myr, who was a Red Priest of the Lord of Light.

Where is your theory on the "other" six, please?

[MrWhyt]

Just now, Blonde Gator said:

Dondarion credits the Lord of Light, as does Thoros of Myr, who wasevens a Red Priest of the Lord of Light.

and if someone appeared in your room and proclaimed "I am The Lord Thy God and thou shall have no other gods before me" how would you tell that it was the christian god and not Loki fucking with you? The other seven, are The Seven. The mother, the maid, the crone, the warrior, the smith, the father, the stranger.

[TaurusRose]

1 hour ago, Mabinogia said:

I'm pretty sure that was a joke. Sadly Arya has no sense of humor anymore so maybe she did take it literally.

Heh. I guess that makes two of us.

[Blonde Gator]

1 minute ago, MrWhyt said:

and if someone appeared in your room and proclaimed "I am The Lord Thy God and thou shall have no other gods before me" how would you tell that it was the christian god and not Loki fucking with you? The other seven, are The Seven. The mother, the maid, the crone, the warrior, the smith, the father, the stranger.

Still waiting for your six other theories.  If you don't have any theories, fine, say so.    If you don't have any evidence of theories, just admit it. 

If you're citing the Seven.....kindly describe the anecdotal evidence that each one has been cited as being responsible for a resurrection.  If you can't or won't, okay, fine.

I presented evidence for my theories....something you seem unable or unwilling to do.

Have a lovely evening.

[MrWhyt]

10 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Still waiting for your six other theories.  If you don't have any theories, fine, say so.    If you don't have any evidence of theories, just admit it. 

If you're citing the Seven.....kindly describe the anecdotal evidence that each one has been cited as being responsible for a resurrection.  If you can't or won't, okay, fine.

I presented evidence for my theories....something you seem unable or unwilling to do.

Have a lovely evening.

my seven alternatives were the seven avatars of The Seven. We don't have the text of the books of The Seven so we can't say for sure if they are credited with resurrecting someone or not. I'm not making an argument about evidence i'm making  an argument about assumption.  The assumption is that the lord of light was really behind Baeric's resurrection and so there is the assumption that he was behind Jon's.  But we see Melissandre's despair at his death, she confesses to Davos that the lord never spoke to her, after he convinces to to try to raise jon anyways she performs the ritual and when it fails she then gives up.  Some time passes and then Jon is resurrected, the cause and effect chain is broken a little.

Occam's razor suggests that the LoL is the most likely reason, but it is not clear cut.

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, Macbeth said:

On the show didn't Sansa share a story with Tyrion about Arya putting cow pads in her bed?

Ah siblings.

sheep shit

[Macbeth]

1 minute ago, GrailKing said:

sheep shit

Thank you GrailKing.  I was in the neighborhood.

[GrailKing]

Just now, Macbeth said:

Thank you GrailKing.  I was in the neighborhood.

welcome

[Oscirus]

8 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

No matter how many times I read this take on the facts, I still can't understand why anyone would blame the good guys, the ones trying to do the right thing, the just thing, the honorable thing for the acts of the ones who are clearly evil, cruel sociopaths.  It's like blaming the victim for being raped, instead of the rapist.  How are LF, Cersei, Joffrey, Tywin, and Walder Frey's despicable actions the Starks' fault?  Those guys did cruel, despicable, evil things because they wanted something they didn't have (riches, recognition, power), but they are not to blame for that, no. It's as if they didn't exercise their own free will to choose that particular path.  They will be who they are forever, like a wild animal.  Apparently, Walder Frey didn't have any other choice but the Red Wedding.  He couldn't have accepted Robb's apology, he couldn't have demanded more, if he was so petty. He just had to have everyone murdered, because that is who he is.  It's not Walder Frey's fault that he is a mean, spiteful, revengeful, despicable asshole; it's Robb's fault for trying to do the right thing after having taken Jeynne's virginity.

Sigh!

That is such an obnoxious analogy.  Blaming idiots for starting wars and causing numerous deaths through their own stupid actions is in no way like blaming a rape victim for being raped.  If you want to say that if there wasn't sociopaths out there these things wouldn't have happened. Sure and if the Starks stopped doing stupid shit, a lot more people would be alive right now.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Oscirus

[Nanrad]

1 hour ago, Hecate7 said:

Arya bonded with a Kat substitute, yes. But she hated Sansa long before any prince appeared on the horizon, and long before there was Mycah or Needle. If Arya had a handful of mud to throw, she'd throw it at Sansa, before she ever had any reason. She loathed Sansa's enjoyment of poetry and pretty dresses, her talent with her needle, and her ability to do what Kat and their Septa wanted her to do the way they wanted her to do it. She had a real need to destroy any small joy Sansa took in life, especially if it was related to appearance or creativity. She hated her traditional femininity, and it could even be argued that she rejected traditional femininity because she disliked Sansa so much she didn't want to be like her in any way.

Baelish is obviously trying to set something up between the girls. I'm not sure why he would want Arya to kill Sansa, but that seems to be what he's setting up.

This honestly comes off as a biased reading of their relationship and arya. I'm the beginning, their dislike of each other, it was mutual, was childish shit. It happens, in fact, my two sisters have a similar relationship as arya and Sansa. No matter how much they love each other, they butt heads--it gets pretty bad at times. But, with these two characters, the the pivotal change in their relationship was where Joffrey served as the catalyst. 

There was resentment on aryas part about feminine shit, but there was resentment on Sansas part as well. At this point, there's no innocent party. They're both guilty. 

Or she hates traditional feminity because it was being forced on her as well as expected of her, so much so, that, at times, she took it out on Sansa who personified the very thing she hated. But, Sansa also resented that arya got away with shit and didn't take her role as a lady seriously. Arya also hated Sansas sense of superiority as well. 

So, clearly her true issue is with Sansa herself and not feminity since she's has obviously moved on past that. TBH, it seems as if she has a problem with the upper class and how they believe they are better than others.

[screamin]

3 hours ago, Nanrad said:

Whether arya is miffed or super fucking angry, if Sansa can read people as well as claimed, she would've handled that situation differently. 

Okay, I read back my previous comments, and I see that earlier I made a mistake and was confusing. I said earlier that Sansa could tell that Arya was 'seething' - extremely angry - from the beginning of the scene. I now realize that when I wrote that, I wrote what I felt was clear by the END of the scene - that Arya was very angry - and I mistakenly said that Sansa could tell she was very angry at the start of the scene. I was wrong when I wrote that and I apologize for being confusing.

So, when Sansa and Arya walk into her bedroom, Sansa does not know Arya is angry at her till Arya makes that passive-aggressive comment about their parents' bedroom. I agree with you that at that moment Arya did not seem very angry; she is perfectly calm, just seeming somewhat mildly annoyed at Sansa. And I maintain that Sansa did notice that annoyance. It stands out, because it's the first time since Arya got back to WF that she's been anything but friendly to Sansa, and Sansa doesn't know why she seems annoyed at her now, or what she's done to deserve it. So she asks her what's the matter.

You say she should wait until Arya's 'cooled off'. But as you've said (and I agree) Arya doesn't seem particularly hot with anger at that moment. You say Sansa should address Arya later when she's "calmed down." But Arya seems quite calm already.  If someone is annoyed at you and you don't know why, how can you know when or if they're going to stop being annoyed if you don't know what you've done to upset them to begin with? If you don't ask what's wrong, you're liable to keep right on doing what upset them, because you don't know what you're doing that's bothering them. If you value your relationship and it doesn't seem likely to cause a scene, it's natural to ask. Sansa does. And it doesn't cause a scene - that is, there are no screams or smashed crockery. But that doesn't mean Arya isn't really angry, or that the things that she accused her of weren't terrible.

Quote

How is it terrible if Sansa DOES feel that way???

Yes, maybe Sansa has had times when she thought she could do a better job than Jon as a ruler, and even had a fleeting moment or two when she liked the idea of being Queen in the North herself though (as Arya herself says) she pushes the thought immediately aside in horror that this occurred to her. Does this justify Arya accusing her of truly wanting power more than she wants Jon to live?

"And if Jon doesn't come back, you'll need their support. So you can work together. So you can get what you REALLY want."

It is a terrible accusation. And while Arya may be very good at physical tells, she can't read minds. She's reciting what she already firmly believes about Sansa, and takes her upset at the accusation as confirmation that the accusation is true in every particular. That's not the way lie detection (any form of lie detection) works.

Quote

Sansa wasn't genuinely curious to be knowledgeable and/or correct the situation, she wanted to know what arya was upset about to shut it down.

Pray tell, how can she 'shut it down'? Where would Sansa ever get the idea that she could just 'shut down' Arya's upsets, either when Arya was a child or now that she knows about her combat skills and kill list? How are you so sure that Sansa doesn't really want to know or correct the reason for Arya's emotional upset?

Quote

Sansa wasn't trying to effectively communicate with arya tho. Lol

The fact is that she DID effectively communicate with her, though. She got to know some really terrible suspicions Arya had of her that she'd previously had no inkling of...suspicions that are currently leading Arya into falling into one of LF's nasty webs. IMO, Sansa's knowledge of those suspicions are going to turn out to be vital for keeping Arya out of danger from LF.

Quote

LF hasn't been playing arya for a while. 

He got the letter from the maester, who told him he had to look for it for a while, because of the deceased maester's extensive records (which should have burned when WF burned, but whatever). Arya's been following him around for a while - and he knows it, though she doesn't realize he's spotted her. He uses her surveillance of him to make her think he's acting on Sansa's behalf when he says loudly "Lady Stark thanks you for you service" to the maester - knowing Arya's listening. He confirms this to us by catching Arya breaking into his room (without Arya realizing it) so she could take the bait he's carefully laid in his trap for her. It shows he has knowledge of Arya's methods and motivations. So IMO he's been studying her and working on this for awhile.

Edited August 17, 2017 by screamin

[GrailKing]

I'm not so sure the Maester gave LF "that " scroll, LF could have his own, or already had the original while Sansa and Wolken were some where else, he went a hunting; and LF just let Arya believe Wolken gave "That" scroll.

Wolken serves House Stark, I would think he keep the Lady of Winterfell up to date on the comings and goings on in the rookery, and Maesters office.

[Constantinople]

Jon & Tormund are the only two of The Seven Samurai who've been north of the Wall before and the only two to face the army of the dead

[AshleyN]

5 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

The Lord of Light demands blood sacrifice.

Legit question because I can't remember: do we have any evidence for this beyond what Melisandre (who's record when it comes interpreting to what the Lord of Light wants is pretty spotty) says? Because the strongest evidence we have of the Lord of Light's power are the resurrections of Beric and Jon*, and I don't think either of those required blood sacrifice?

*And I can't be the only one hoping we get a little chat between those two on this subject in the next episode, can I?

In any case, I do agree with whoever said upthread that they don't expect Jon's resurrection to play out quite the same in the books. At the very least, I think it's a virtual guarantee that he wargs into Ghost, allowing him to retain his mind much better than Beric or Cat did.

[Lemuria]

Quote

Seriously! not one of them covers their head-- they'll all catch cold!

"Earmuffs?  We don't need no stinkin' earmuffs!"  These guys are not Southern pantywaists, you know.  lol

Quote

I don't think there is any evidence (show-wise at least, been a while since I read the books) that the dead rise spontaneously. The dead rose at Hardhome cause the Night King told them too.

I gave you a like for this--I was going to raise the same point after reading multiple times the suggestion that they should just grab a dead body and wait until it wights out.  Corpses don't just become wights.  If they did, the North and the rest of Westeros would by wall-to-wall wights by now.  Sticking a corpse out near the Wall would accomplish nothing unless the Red God of Coincidence was on your side and had a WW stroll on by while walking his undead dog.  

Is it a dangerous, very risky plan?  Yes.  Are there viable alternatives?  Not so far.  Especially if they are trying to convince not only Cersei (and, to a lesser extent, Dany, who may now believe WWs exist but not realize just how bad the situation is) but also all the other lords, whose armies they're going to need.  Yes, I agree, odds are Cersei won't honor any agreement she makes but to this point, she hasn't been stupid in her choices this year, so there's always the chance she'd realize just how badly things would go if the NK and his troops are not stopped.  They have to try, IMO.

Quote

He can't just grow up in Westeros as "Sam" though.  Maybe he's insignificant and it'll never matter, but I notice little things like that.

Little Sam (LS) is very important in this ep.  He's the reason Big Sam(BS) will have the crucial book in his hands when the time comes that bothers to read it.  BS dismissed and ignored what Gilly was reading and had no respect for the person who'd written it.  He went to grab the books and scrolls he thought were going to be useful.  Before he did that, though, he gave the book to LS.  He was trying to sneak away from the Citadel with a bunch of stolen books.  The last thing he wanted to occur was a temper tantrum because he tried to take LS's book away from him.  

Otherwise, I think BS would have left that book/scroll and the 15,782 whatevers right there on the table.

Way to go, LS.  When the PwwP comes into his own, I think you deserve a holding of your own!  (Maybe right next to Bronn's castle.)

Quote

Wouldn't Uncle Stark work for that? I know he wouldn't allow himself back through the wall when he got Bran and Meera through because he felt it would allow the Night king through, but now Night king is coming.

It wasn't a matter of Benjen's not allowing himself back through the Wall, nor was he afraid the NK would follow him (that was a possibility with Bran, not with Benjen).  It's that the Wall wouldn't let him through because he had been partly turned into a wight. 

Quote

Drogon allows Dany to climb on top of him and ride him, obeys her commands and is fiercely protective of her and will attack anyone that would do her harm.

Drogon allowed Jon to pet his nose.

Who else has he allowed to pet his nose?  None of the dragons have allowed that or been affectionate with anyone except Dany, and they consider her their Mom.   Certainly the alpha, Drogon, hasn't.  And Drogon didn't just allow Jon to pet him; he was practically purring and closing his eyes.  There's no doubt to me that it's important.  I'm just surprised that Dany all over it more.

Quote

but the elaborate lie he maintained for years makes even less sense now that we know that Jon's not even illegitimate

to me, it makes more sense.  If Jon is true-born, then he is an even greater threat to the Baratheons and Lannisters, and certainly he'd be a rallying point for Targaryen loyalists.

And speaking of Targaryen loyalists, I wonder how Ser Alister Thorne would have felt, since he went to the NW because he'd fought for the Targaryens during the Rebellion, if he'd found out that he just stabbed Rhaegar's heir to death.  Ah, the irony.  :)

[nurse1]

I so enjoyed readling all the comments about this episode....Both Tormund and Davos had the best lines....My love for both characters has grown leaps and bounds!!

This season has been setting up so much.....the NK is SERIOUS!!!...Arya is my girl, no way is she not aware of LF!

[Oscirus]

1 hour ago, doram said:

The dragons loved Doreah and they let Tyrion unchain them. They're not magically deposed to be hostile to anyone without Targaryen blood. They're intelligent creatures and they can sense people's intentions towards then and react accordingly. 

Tyrion did more then unchain them, he was even petting Rhaegal while telling his story of wanting a dragon. As a matter of fact according to Tyrion in that very same episode, Dragons are friendly to anybody that's Dany's friends. Tyrion Dany and Jon are the only people who've had the balls to touch them.

[Chris24601]

6 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

Five books and 7.4 seasons into it.....AND we have a new diety? 

Okay.  Show me your hand in support of this theory.

To repeat, MY well-supported theory is that D&D decided to do a simple "Raise Dead" spell as an alternative to the likely convoluted resurrection Martin will use in the books that will probably hinge on Jon being a warg in the books (while he is NOT a warg on the show). Rather than spent half an episode retroactively making Jon a warg and then trying to convey that Jon's soul was inside Ghost without going all cheesy like having us hear Jon's thoughts or some such that would completely break from the established style of the series... the showrunners said "You know, we never established that there were any of the fire wight side-effects to the Red Priest resurrections, so let's just use that to save time and get on with the story because we can't spent 100 minutes explaining all this the way Martin can spend 100 pages doing the same in the books; the general audience whose never read the books will never even notice the difference anyway."

The mistake is in thinking that the same showrunners who decided to replace Jeyne Pool with Sansa for the rape storyline and dumping her Vale arc almost entirely in order to save time are going to accurately convey the actual method by which Jon will be resurrected in the books.

Jon isn't a fire wight on the show because there are no fire wights in the show. Jon won't be a fire wight in the books because his resurrection will be much more involved than just Melisandre breathing fire magic into his body and that's it.
 

5 hours ago, MrWhyt said:

and if someone appeared in your room and proclaimed "I am The Lord Thy God and thou shall have no other gods before me" how would you tell that it was the christian god and not Loki fucking with you? The other seven, are The Seven. The mother, the maid, the crone, the warrior, the smith, the father, the stranger.

And to be fair, while the show has not done a very good job of explaining it, The Seven is actually The Seven Who Are One.; a singular God with seven aspects (basically a more complex version of the Trinity). The Seven and the Lord of Light could even just be different interpretations of the same singular God.

There's also the possibility too that there are no gods at all and its just "magic" that some people or bloodlines are capable of and the abilities are attributed to gifts of a supernatural power rather than genetically inherited superpowers.

But I stand by my original contention outlined above... that D&D didn't have the time or budget to show Jon in Ghost's body (i.e. direwolf FX which always get the short shrift) while paying Kit Harrington lots of money to just lie on a table so they skipped the convoluted stuff that they'd already messed up by NOT making Jon a warg earlier so having him suddenly become one would look like a total asspull to the general audience and instead, D&D (pun intended in this case) just had the Cleric cast "Raise Dead" and moved on.

[WearyTraveler]

6 hours ago, Oscirus said:

That is such an obnoxious analogy.  Blaming idiots for starting wars and causing numerous deaths through their own stupid actions is in no way like blaming a rape victim for being raped.  If you want to say that if there wasn't sociopaths out there these things wouldn't have happened. Sure and if the Starks stopped doing stupid shit, a lot more people would be alive right now.

The analogy feels perfectly fine to me and I gave a very specific example.  Robb did something stupid and then tried to fix his mistake by marrying the girl he had dishonored and offering plenty of reparations, honors and power to Frey for breaking his promise.  It's not Robb's fault that Walder then decided to murder hundreds of people.  That's on Walder because he's a despicable asshole.  Likewise, a woman may decide to walk home alone in the middle of the night in a big city and many would consider that a mistake, or at least taking an unnecessary risk; but that doesn't matter, if she gets raped, it's not her fault.  She's a victim.  The rape is on the rapist not on her.

For me, it's not Robb's fault that Walder is a murderer and it's not Ned's fault that LF is a sociopath and Cersei a power hungry idiot.  The ones to blame for the deaths are Walder, LF and Cersei.  And, I would add that, given the nature of these people in the books and show, they would have caused the deaths of many no matter what the Starks did.  LF would have found a way to cause chaos if Catelyn hadn't fallen for his lies, Tywin would have found a way to obliterate anyone who defied him (like the Reynnes of Castamere) no matter the casualties, Walder would have murdered those he felt offended him, and so on.   I don't see how those who may have made mistakes, but are trying to do the right thing and fighting for the right cause are to blame for the evil of others.

And I'll leave it at that.  Agree to disagree.  Plus, this wouldn't be the right thread to continue this discussion.

Edited August 17, 2017 by WearyTraveler

[Shimmergloom]

10 hours ago, Nanrad said:

Even if you argue that Sansa had no choice with Micah

There's no argument for this at all, because Micah was already dead and that meeting at the hall was for Arya's well being, not Micahs.  Ned needed to keep Arya alive or at least not severely punished.