S07.E05: Eastwatch

[Hana Chan]

31 minutes ago, screamin said:

Sadly, both these girls are at cross-purposes when they BOTH need each other. Sansa DOES lack the experience in being steely when push comes to shove and diplomacy won't work, she needs Arya for that. But Arya needs a brake on her Violence First approach. She currently has NO middle gears and needs Sansa to modulate her. But she won't be able to work in tandem with her unless she's willing to keep an open mind to the possibility that Sansa is no longer exactly the same 12 year old silly selfish girl who screwed up badly once without understanding the stakes, all those years ago.

^^THIS!^^

Both of them are right to a certain degree. Sansa is right that they need to keep all of the Northern Lords in line to preserve Jon's power and she's doing what she feels is necessary in order to make that happen. Arya is right that Sansa is taking too light a hand and is being too passive, which may stem from her wishing for the position of QITN for herself. Sansa may not be actively working against Jon's interests, but she would be dishonest if the thought hadn't crossed her mind more than a few times. And Arya had a point that by taking over Ned and Caitlin's chambers, she is assuming the perks of being in charge when she's supposed to be holding the spot for Jon until he returns.

And while Arya may be aware that Littlefinger is working to seed dissent against Jon, neither of them seem aware (at least as of now) that he's playing the two sisters off one another. That he's not there for Sansa's benefit but for his own and that for all his pronouncements of love for Sansa, she's nothing more than a tool for him. I'm looking forward to the girls really see what he's up to and how they respond - that is going to be very, very interesting to see.

[AshleyN]

1 hour ago, MrsR said:

Actually, I think would prefer death by dragon to the" off with their heads" bit. I have a definite fear of dismemberment. And after reading about the execution of Margaret Pole, the Countess of Salisbury the last victim of the War of the Roses, some decades after the war was over, I definitely wouldn't want to go under the axe. It took ten swings to get it right with her. EEEK!  We see clean executions on these shows but in fact it was a horribly messy business and didn't always go right. Henry VIII sent all the way to France for a special executioner for Anne Boleyn because he needed her execution to be clean, should have done the same for Margaret. 

We actually did see an example in this on the show way back in Season 2, with Theon's botched beheading of Ser Rodrick.

45 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

I don't think arya will always know, but she can read people pretty will regarding lying and motives. She'll have some missteps. With Sansa, imo, she accurately assessed the situation. She didn't say Sansa wanted the position because she's evil or anything and she also acknowledged that Sansa doesn't want to entertain the forbidden thoughts. 

Thr nuance is aryas assessment as well as Sansas reaction to it says that arya was correct. 

I tend to avoid discussions about Sansa (people's views on her are so black and white that there's little room for nuance and they quickly become tedious and repetitive IMO) but I agree with this. The way the scene was written, shot, and acted made it seem fairly clear to me that there was at least some truth to what Arya said, even if Sansa herself wishes there wasn't.

Edited August 16, 2017 by AshleyN

[Nanrad]

24 minutes ago, screamin said:

So you think Arya, without benefit of knowing all the history behind the lords' meeting she witnessed, is right that Sansa totally mismanaged it? Do you think that her "more thoughtful, careful and considerate" approach of threatening to cut off the complaining lords' heads was the right approach? Glover is being especially whiny, but Sansa knows he is only expressing the doubts the other lords are already thinking - the doubts she heard them ALL of them express to Jon's face before he left - even Lady Mormont. If she  threatens one of them with death just for now expressing those doubts when Jon didn't threaten them for it, how many of the other lords will back her up on that? Ironically, the only army she can absolutely depend on to obey her is Royce's, under the real command of LF. She absolutely MUST have the support of all the Northern lords of their own free will, and that requires the kid gloves approach she is taking. Threaten them and alienate them too much and she'll end up possibly abandoned by many of her Northern allies and dependent on the Vale forces for power - no doubt exactly where LF wants her. 

As for the idea that Sansa is in the wrong by asking Arya what's the matter? IMO, it shows that she CAN read Arya sufficiently to see that she seethes with anger that Sansa has no idea what she did to provoke - and therefore no idea how to stop doing what she did to make Arya angry. Sansa knows she does not know this 15 year old Arya with her unknown harsh experience, so she asks, to know her better. To admit ignorance is the beginning of wisdom. Sansa knows she doesn't know Arya, so she asks. Arya thinks she already knows Sansa, so she DOESN'T ask, or even speak. And when pressed she doesn't really ask Sansa anything, she just TELLS her what she's already made up her mind to believe - that Sansa wants to betray Jon for power. Funny thing is, she SEES that Sansa sincerely wants to believe that Jon will come back so she can hand back the power, SEES that Sansa is so horrified at the possibility that Jon may not return that she tries not to think about it - but she dares at times to plan ahead just in case he doesn't, and even dares to think she can handle it well. This, to Arya, is a betrayal of Jon in itself. Unfortunately it's something Sansa can't stop doing just to placate Arya. We know even better than Sansa does that there's a real chance that Jon won't come back, and it's her job to prepare for that eventuality as much as any other the North faces - the job Jon gave her. If the only attitude that Arya finds acceptable is an absolute religious faith that Jon WILL come back and swift punishment of any blasphemers who dare worry otherwise, then Arya's anger will not go away if Sansa ignores it; best deal with it.

Sadly, both these girls are at cross-purposes when they BOTH need each other. Sansa DOES lack the experience in being steely when push comes to shove and diplomacy won't work, she needs Arya for that. But Arya needs a brake on her Violence First approach. She currently has NO middle gears and needs Sansa to modulate her. But she won't be able to work in tandem with her unless she's willing to keep an open mind to the possibility that Sansa is no longer exactly the same 12 year old silly selfish girl who screwed up badly once without understanding the stakes, all those years ago.

You've consistently misconstrued my words ad have talen out something else entirely. Even when I've explicitly said otherwise, which makes this quite a remarkable talent. 

Where did I say that Sansa totally mismanaged the meeting??? There is no way to know this, is there? I said she needs to do a better job of defending Jon. Why can't an outsider have an accurate assessment of one thing without knwong the history of it??? Why do we jump through hoops to justify all of Sansas actions and make her the wrongly accused in every situation? In the hallway scene before they got in the chamber, arya even corrected Sansa on jons leaving and her position.

sansa: Jon just can't leave he north and expect it to wait for him like ghost.

arya: he didn't, he trusted you to hold it for him.

clearly, arya has some idea of how some basic things work and, for whatever reason, Sansa is frustrated or resentful about something. I wonder, were the northern lords resentful when Ned left to go south. I know, I know, starks die when they go south. But, Sansa and the northern lords are acting as if Jon abandoned them rather than expressing worry about his life and concern about his leadership in those meetings, which is why aryas remark about Sansa needing to defending Jon and her internal war is astute.

also, my considerate comment was in reference as to how she approached Sansa in the chamber (mostly). She made an observation, and then shut up. Sansa asked her to elaborate. So my point being: arya has clearly learned to stop herself rather than to keep slinging accusations. Even with LF. Being misled or not, she's observing and investigating and not simply reacting. Or like when people assumed arya was going to kill the red cloaks because "she's just so unhinged."

oh my lord, LOL. "Seethes anger???" I've literally watched this scene right before THIS statement and, naw...there wasn't any seething or anger in aryas tone. Not an once. Even when she said "nothing." Sansa ROLLED her eyes before facing arya and got upset that arya brushed her off and Sansa said "don't do that," showing that she was annoyed with arya. Sansa literally had no clue that arya was angry or upset with her, until she pushed she the subject which I don't think was out of sincerity, but rather, curiosity of what arya was thinking about her living in her parents rooms. 

She even comes off patronizing after arya voices her thoughts about the punishment these men should get. Then when arya pinpoints the thought of Sansa ruling, after arya accurately assesses that Sansas wants are at odds with her loyalty, she ends the conversation. Sansa isn't portrayed on screen how she is said in your statement. She's far more grey and complex than that. Because there is no reason for her to react like that if she was just planning in case something g bad happened.

[TaurusRose]

8 hours ago, doram said:

One of the best and most beautiful things in 7x4 was watching Dany ride into battle herself, leading the charge. I will love that opening shot of Drogon flying towards the Lannister line for that alone.

While Cersei sits in King's Landing, so disconnected from the battle that she accused Bronn - who saved her literal fuckbrother's life - of treason, Dany was out there in the field, risking her life alongside her army.

This!

I'm reminded of BoTB and the real reason Jon got the nod for KiTN rather than people lining up to elevate Sansa to a higher station because "the knights of the Vale came for you!" He stood his ground. He faced a charging calvary with no guarantee he'd come out alive and fought like a hellion. Jon showed strength, he showed leadership and he pretty much said, "I'll never ask more of you than I'm willing to do myself." Disclaimer: Not intended to push conversation off-topic or start the endless but "Sansa saved him!" debates. I just love scenes like this!  LOL

That said, I'd love to see that smug nut job in the Red Keep step on a battlefield, if even to just pull a Ramsay...watching safely far, far away from the actual fighting. 

Edited August 16, 2017 by taurusrose

[Nanrad]

9 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Arya- They were insulting Jon and you sat there and listen.

Sansa- I sat there and listen, it's my responsibility as Lady of Winterfell.

Arya- their opinions aren't important to you.

Sansa- Glover has 500 men, Royce 2000, offend them and Jon looses his army.

Arya- NOT IF THEY LOOSE THEIR HEADS FIRST !

Sansa walking closer to Arya - Winterfell didn't just fall into our hands, we took it back ; along with the Mormonts, the Hornwoods, the Wildlings and the Vale ,all of us working together, now Im sure cutting off heads is very satisfying; but that's not how you get people to work together.

Arya then turns into bitch mode : and if Jon, doesn't come back, you'll need their support; so you can work together, to give you what you really want.

Sansa - Says how can you think such a thing and they go on.

Point 1 Arya implied taking heads not Sansa.

Point 2 Arya was being a bigger dick then Joffery

Point 3 Yes Arya your sister will need their support, to keep the home your now chilling in and pissing and moaning in, for you and Bran.

Point 4 She IS the Lady of Winterfell and your the heir, so open, your eyes and open your ears  and learn .

Little sis is a bitch.

And if she's playing game of faces with Sansa I hope Sansa gives her a new one.

If Sansa is falling backwards, she's heading in a more proper direction then Arya at the moment. 

Seriously??? 

arya is being a bigger dick than Joffrey, the kid who said he'd spare their dad and got Ned killed. The guy who tortured Sansa? The one who got Micah killed? All because she voiced Sansas secret thoughts???

wow. 

Your point four is wrong. Although Sansa is consider lady of winterfell, that is only because Jon isn't married yet unless he marries her. Even then, that wouldn't make arya the heir unless they don't have kids. Even then, that's assuming that arya wants to inherit winterfell.

arya is a bitch for being a truth teller? Lol

and you want Sansa to assault her for accurately calling the situation for what it was? 

What proper direction is Sansa heading in?

arya is a bitch for calling Sansa out, but Sansa was being a bitch too. They're clearly sisters. 

[Blonde Gator]

8 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Same same as the waif to Arya, we can call it probing, but the faceless crew calls it game of faces, probing for lies.

Whether she cares or not, it's still her heritage, and Sansa is right to protect that for her and Bran, Arya's not forced to take it, and has every right to refuse it, like Bran.

Sansa's a better liar then most, it was the first thing she was taught by the Hound / Baleish,it kept her alive and reduced Joffery's assaults.

You're entitled to your opinion, as am I. 

[Hana Chan]

3 minutes ago, AshleyN said:

The way the scene was written, shot, and acted made it seem fairly clear to me that there was at least some truth to what Arya said, even if Sansa herself wishes there wasn't.

To be fair, Sansa wanting the titles and all that goes along with them is logical given her upbringing. All of her childhood, she was taught that those trueborn into noble families had rights and privileges that those who were not could not have. And she watched the open disdain and hostility Caitlin had for Jon. She's human and it's understandable that these are very deep-ingrained viewpoints that aren't so easily put aside. She might have some real affection for Jon now and regret how she treated him when they were growing up, but there is still that part of her deep inside that places Jon well beneath her in the social hierarchy. 

And it's understandable that she would crave having power for herself. She wants to protect herself and having titles and armies would, in her mind, do very well in that. And most people want to advance socially. Again, she's very probably not working actively to take the position away from Jon, but she's not immune to wanting this for herself. Especially when she's got nobles telling her that they should have picked her instead. My hope is that she's grown enough to shake off this desire for her own elevation and recognize what Jon is trying to do and really works to help and not hinder him.

[Nanrad]

My thing is: I don't fault Sansa for feeling that way. I just wish people would stop trying to whitewash her motives and pretend that her actions are above reproach and is pure as snow. Despite my criciticisms of Sansa, I completely understand why she wants power and how it is something she'd be at odds with herself about. 

Rather than her defenders calling arya a bitch for sensing this as well or trying to downplay or completely erase this, they could have easily argued this instead. There is nothing wrong with Sansa wanting jons place and it's human for your thoughts to sometimes go to morally objectable places when it comes to getting what you want.

[screamin]

1 hour ago, Nanrad said:

You've consistently misconstrued my words ad have talen out something else entirely. Even when I've explicitly said otherwise, which makes this quite a remarkable talent. 

Where did I say that Sansa totally mismanaged the meeting??? There is no way to know this, is there?

You say that, but then you say in your very next sentence: "I said she needs to do a better job of defending Jon." How else can I see that but as saying that Sansa did badly in her performance before the lords, criticizing her for not defending Jon adequately, and thus mismanaging the meeting? 

Quote

Why do we jump through hoops to justify all of Sansas actions and make her the wrongly accused in every situation?

If you go back to my first comments about this, I actually acknowledge that I don't know for certain whether Sansa IS being too soft on the complaining lords, that it remains to be seen depending on the result. I'm not saying she's absolutely right beyond doubt in her approach. I DO think, however, that Arya's proposal to immediately threaten beheading is pretty clearly the wrong thing to do. If you agree on that, we're largely on the same side.

Yes, Sansa does begin the scene frustrated and resentful about 'something', as you say. I think, however, it's pretty clear why she's frustrated and resentful. I think it's even clear to Arya why, because she says it out loud. Sansa's beset by the same doubts and fears the lords have that Jon won't come back. We know, by having seen this show, and seeing Jon about to go on a really stupid wight hunt, that these doubts and fears are perfectly plausible. Unlike the whiny lords, however, Sansa must conceal her own doubts and fears and express faith in Jon's decision plausibly enough to carry the lords along for another day. As far as we can tell, she's done it; the lords have finished their grumbling and none have abandoned the cause today or taken their grain and gone home. However, she knows that she will have to go through the same argument with more difficulty at the next meeting, and the next, as long as Jon is away, and continue to hide the fear and doubt they ALL are feeling, to serve Jon's cause. Of course she's frustrated. And Arya knows very well - she TELLS us so - that Sansa is afraid that Jon won't come back. Arya knows that Sansa is horrified at the possibility and tries not to think about it because she WANTS Jon to come back - Arya SAYS this. But it doesn't matter to Arya that Sansa quite sincerely wants Jon to return and is horrified and afraid of the possibility he won't. But Sansa dares to think at times that she must be prepared for the possibility that Jon won't come back and she must take over...and even that she might actually be capable of it and good at it, maybe even better than Jon. This, to Arya, is a disgusting betrayal that proves that Sansa's still exactly the same 12 year old who only wants power and pretty things for herself...even though it's part of Sansa's freaking job that Jon gave her, to plan for all eventualities and be good at it. That is the problem; Arya's fury at Sansa is misplaced.

Quote

oh my lord, LOL. "Seethes anger???" I've literally watched this scene right before THIS statement and, naw...there wasn't any seething or anger in aryas tone. Not an once.

You think that Arya wasn't angry at all after she witnessed what she thought was Sansa allowing the lords to insult Jon without the retaliation she thought they deserved? IMO, the whole "you moved into Father and Mother's room? No, nothing, no reason..." was pretty clearly a passive-aggressive expression of the anger that Arya was already feeling about what happened at the meeting. Sansa picked up that anger and asked about it, bringing it out into the open where it needed to be - and Arya was quite happy to explain her anger when clearly asked. I really don't think Sansa made Arya angry by asking too brusquely what was up with her. She was angry already - the meeting made her angry, and Sansa using sweeter tones would not assuage it. And IMO, since Arya's anger is based on her idea that Sansa is betraying Jon by doing her job in the manner she's doing it, her anger is not going to go away if Sansa ignores it. It needs to be dealt with.

Edited August 16, 2017 by screamin

[Tikichick]

Arya and Sansa are taking the measure of each other.  They did not mix easily or well in their younger years.  Even had the intervening years between then and now been idyllic it may have been a struggle for them to ever have a meeting of the minds about much of anything.

They were both quite happy to be reunited.  They've both been through some hideous shit that changed them. and they both realize their family they loved is greatly smaller now, making them more likely to value the other more than they ever have.  I don't think either one fully appreciates who they are now, let alone fully understand who the other one is now.  A girl made the serious choice to decide to be Arya Stark, realizing she could never deny it in the end.  Sansa now sees herself, the world and WF in a completely different light -- although the place in which Arya finds her may lead her to believe that Sansa is still looking for the same things out of life when it is actually far from it.  It's also hitting Arya all over again, and quite freshly in a sense, that her mother and father are gone, and it probably was a sting to see someone (Sansa) effectively walking in their shoes, sleeping in their bed.  Oh, she's absolutely known for a very long time they're gone.  But a piece of her had to get hit with their loss all over again walking around WF.   

[GrailKing]

43 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

Seriously??? 

arya is being a bigger dick than Joffrey, the kid who said he'd spare their dad and got Ned killed. The guy who tortured Sansa? The one who got Micah killed? All because she voiced Sansas secret thoughts???

wow. 

Your point four is wrong. Although Sansa is consider lady of winterfell, that is only because Jon isn't married yet unless he marries her. Even then, that wouldn't make arya the heir unless they don't have kids. Even then, that's assuming that arya wants to inherit winterfell.

arya is a bitch for being a truth teller? Lol

and you want Sansa to assault her for accurately calling the situation for what it was? 

What proper direction is Sansa heading in?

arya is a bitch for calling Sansa out, but Sansa was being a bitch too. They're clearly sisters. 

Where do you see Sansa wanting to assault Arya? 

Sansa has had that emotion only once, and it was towards Joffery on traitors, bridge.The person who shows more traits of assaulting anyone is Arya, Sansa would use poisons, or a catspaw, because those are a woman's /ladies weapon, and Arya nor Brienne are "Ladies ".

If Jon gets married, he's KITN, he can't get Winterfell, unless he fights Sansa,Arya and Bran for it, and his wife would not get it she has no rights to it.

Arya is acting like a bigger dick, she's all revenge, I think Arya would die rather then live, Sansa is trying to keep her father alive, and her self, if she refuses and Cersei or Joffery have a moment and kill her what did that prove, Ned died for nothing, nah a POW's duty is to stay alive and live another day.

Through that whole convosation, Sansa never said anything bitchy, she tried showing Arya the truth of the situation.

I'm sure Sansa doesn't want that letter out, from a Northern perspective it look cowardly, but so did Thoren, and he saved his people, for Sansa it ment her father's life.

[sacrebleu]

As for moving into Father and Mother's room,  didn't Jon offer it to Sansa? The layout of Winterfell is pretty hazy to me-- but I'm assuming that the room she shared with Ramsey was a room other than Ned & Kats (as that was inhabited by Roose-- until his untimely death).

I'm not sure we know what Arya knows about what Sansa's been through-- which bugs me. At least with Jon we had the nice,  wine drinking scene where it's implied that they each shared what they had been through since they parted ways @ Winterfell. IDK, and the show didn't 'show' whether or not Sansa/Arya have had that conversation. And that's an important beat that was missed story-wise.

Arya has implied that she's had training but I'm sure there's some sort of 'don't talk about Fight Club' rule among the Faceless Men, so her answer to 'who taught you that?' is 'No one.'

[VCRTracking]

21 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

Rather than her defenders calling arya a bitch for sensing this as well or trying to downplay or completely erase this, they could have easily argued this instead. There is nothing wrong with Sansa wanting jons place and it's human for your thoughts to sometimes go to morally objectable places when it comes to getting what you want.

There's also nothing wrong with Arya believing Sansa has these thoughts. I've more disturbed by how she accused Sansa. It was calm and cold as her last words to Walder Frey.

[MissLucas]

2 hours ago, sacrebleu said:

As for moving into Father and Mother's room,  didn't Jon offer it to Sansa? The layout of Winterfell is pretty hazy to me-- but I'm assuming that the room she shared with Ramsey was a room other than Ned & Kats (as that was inhabited by Roose-- until his untimely death).

Yep, Jon had made the decision that the room belonged to her:

I'm having the lord's chamber prepared for you.

Mother and Father's room?

You should take it. I'm not a Stark.

You are to me.

You're the Lady of Winterfell. You deserve it.

I guess as it was the lord's chamber that Roose stayed there and Ramsey had another room.

Edited August 16, 2017 by MissLucas

[YaddaYadda]

8 minutes ago, sacrebleu said:

As for moving into Father and Mother's room,  didn't Jon offer it to Sansa? The layout of Winterfell is pretty hazy to me-- but I'm assuming that the room she shared with Ramsey was a room other than Ned & Kats (as that was inhabited by Roose-- until his untimely death).

I always wondered if they fumigated that chamber and the rest of the castle after they took it back. Maybe burn the furniture or something. 

That's basically the stuff I wonder about.

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, Blonde Gator said:

You're entitled to your opinion, as am I. 

Yes. We are, I don't hate anyone for it either. : )

[TaurusRose]

4 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

I always wondered if they fumigated that chamber and the rest of the castle after they took it back. Maybe burn the furniture or something. 

That's basically the stuff I wonder about.

LOL Well, we all have our little quirks. ?

[Mabinogia]

15 minutes ago, sacrebleu said:

As for moving into Father and Mother's room,  didn't Jon offer it to Sansa? The layout of Winterfell is pretty hazy to me-- but I'm assuming that the room she shared with Ramsey was a room other than Ned & Kats (as that was inhabited by Roose-- until his untimely death).

Oh, that would make sense. I was wondering why she would move into Ned and Kats room when she has her own room (Jon I could see because being a bastard he probably had a shitty room), but yeah, if Sansa's room was where she was raped every night by Ramsey I could see her not wanting to spend another second in that room. And still she didn't demand her parents room.

[GrailKing]

52 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

My thing is: I don't fault Sansa for feeling that way. I just wish people would stop trying to whitewash her motives and pretend that her actions are above reproach and is pure as snow. Despite my criciticisms of Sansa, I completely understand why she wants power and how it is something she'd be at odds with herself about. 

Rather than her defenders calling arya a bitch for sensing this as well or trying to downplay or completely erase this, they could have easily argued this instead. There is nothing wrong with Sansa wanting jons place and it's human for your thoughts to sometimes go to morally objectable places when it comes to getting what you want.

She's not being called a bitch for calling her sister out, she's being called a bitch, because of her brute style and not seeing the effort Sansa has put forth or the right of the political landscape, nor is she allowing Sansa to tell her story, she's assuming things that she has no knowledge of, except some type of warrior code I guess Sansa should follow.

[FnkyChkn34]

11 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

I always wondered if they fumigated that chamber and the rest of the castle after they took it back. Maybe burn the furniture or something. 

That's basically the stuff I wonder about.

When did Winterfell catch fire?  Maybe it was all inadvertently destroyed anyway.

[screamin]

Just now, FnkyChkn34 said:

When did Winterfell catch fire?  Maybe it was all inadvertently destroyed anyway.

Yeah, but then Roose rebuilt it and got his Bolton cooties all over everything.

[FnkyChkn34]

1 minute ago, GrailKing said:

She's not being called a bitch for calling her sister out, she's being called a bitch, because of her brute style and not seeing the effort Sansa has put forth or the right of the political landscape, nor is she allowing Sansa to tell her story, she's assuming things that she has no knowledge of, except some type of warrior code I guess Sansa should follow.

This is one of the reasons why I think Arya is a sociopath.  She doesn't have the same human emotions as a normal person should.

Just now, screamin said:

Yeah, but then Roose rebuilt it and got his Bolton cooties all over everything.

Yeah, I couldn't remember.  Thanks.  So they probably threw out everything the Boltons brought in.

[Tikichick]

I do think that there is a good likelihood that Arya mistakes the circumstances she finds Sansa in as suiting the agenda of the Sansa she knew growing up, the one wanting to live as the lady of the castle, etc.  When in fact I think the Sansa currently walking around as the Lady of Winterfell, overseeing things and giving orders, sees position as important because of the lessons she learned from Cersei, Margaery and the QOT.  In other words, if you've got X position it allows you this reach of power and authority -- within which you operate to provide yourself protection.  I don't think Arya understands yet that this is the motivation driving her sister today.  If she comes to that understanding, woe to any looking to harm the Lady of Winterfell.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Tikichick

[Mabinogia]

5 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

This is one of the reasons why I think Arya is a sociopath.  She doesn't have the same human emotions as a normal person should.

I think both her and Bran basically died and in their place are these emotionally dead husks, one filled with visions and one filled with murderous rage. They were both so young when their worlds fell apart and they both went down paths that changed them in much deeper ways than just being "damaged". They both died. I think Bran, now being the three eyed raven is gone for good. Arya, my jury is still out on. Can she be brought back? Maybe, if she wants to be brought back. The joy on her face when she was sparing with Brienne was actually sad to me. She felt more joy fighting than she did in being reunited with her family or returning to her home.

[Oscirus]

3 hours ago, Tikichick said:

Roose Bolton, Ramsey Bolton -- Not only carried their house sigil into battles, but took it a step further with actual visual aids.  Rape, murder culture?  Check and check.  They were only allowed to fly their freak flag freely and as they wished after alignment with House Lannister.

The Greyjoys - Dany aligned with Yara/Theon -- and promptly told them the reaving and raping was o-v-e-r.  Cersei aligned with Euron - smiled benignly at the promise he would do as he would to gain her hand in marriage.

I suppose you do make a point, Cersei is only talking out of one side of her mouth.

Saying she's a better person than psychopaths does nothing, I've already acknowledged this. But if that's what you aspire to for her, sure, she's breaking the hell out of the wheel.

[FnkyChkn34]

3 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I think both her and Bran basically died and in their place are these emotionally dead husks, one filled with visions and one filled with murderous rage. They were both so young when their worlds fell apart and they both went down paths that changed them in much deeper ways than just being "damaged". They both died. I think Bran, now being the three eyed raven is gone for good. Arya, my jury is still out on. Can she be brought back? Maybe, if she wants to be brought back. The joy on her face when she was sparing with Brienne was actually sad to me. She felt more joy fighting than she did in being reunited with her family or returning to her home.

Then all the Stark children but Sansa have died?  Interesting theory.  I agree with you about Bran (Meera basically said so for us), but I don't agree about Arya.  IMO, she's still very much alive - as a homicidal sociopath.

ETA:  By the way, I also don't agree with the people who say that Jon is a zombie.  He's been brought back from the dead, but he's far from a zombie.  He's proven that he still has a soul.

Edited August 16, 2017 by FnkyChkn34

[GrailKing]

29 minutes ago, sacrebleu said:

As for moving into Father and Mother's room,  didn't Jon offer it to Sansa? The layout of Winterfell is pretty hazy to me-- but I'm assuming that the room she shared with Ramsey was a room other than Ned & Kats (as that was inhabited by Roose-- until his untimely death).

I'm not sure we know what Arya knows about what Sansa's been through-- which bugs me. At least with Jon we had the nice,  wine drinking scene where it's implied that they each shared what they had been through since they parted ways @ Winterfell. IDK, and the show didn't 'show' whether or not Sansa/Arya have had that conversation. And that's an important beat that was missed story-wise.

Arya has implied that she's had training but I'm sure there's some sort of 'don't talk about Fight Club' rule among the Faceless Men, so her answer to 'who taught you that?' is 'No one.'

Yes, and Sansa told, Jon to take it.

The Hound did tell Arya in book and show, how her sister was beaten, and almost raped, Arya probably had all that erased in FM training.

[Mabinogia]

5 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

In other words, if you've got X position it allows you this reach of power and authority -- within which you operate to provide yourself protection.  I don't think Arya understands yet that this is the motivation driving her sister today.

That's a good point, because Arya knows how to fight and protect herself I don't think she understands Sansa's desperate need for protection and a sense of safety that is provided by having power. I don't think Sansa cares as much about the "finer things" anymore. What she cares about is not being used anymore. She would happily let Jon rule Winterfell if she can be assured he won't marry her off to someone horrible. But she has been so terribly betrayed that I think it's hard for her to trust even Jon. I think she's getting there, but it's gonna take time.

Arya doesn't need political power because she has Needle. She can defend herself without an army at her beck and call.

[GrailKing]

12 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

When did Winterfell catch fire?  Maybe it was all inadvertently destroyed anyway.

Theon's people when Maester Luwin was mercy killed by Osha.

[Oscirus]

This is an unpopular opinion but I'll say it. This was the first time in a while that Littlefinger was doing littlefinger things and I enjoyed it. Unfortunately, since we know that there's no way that he'll outsmart the girls this late in the game, it'll likely be the last :s

[GrailKing]

7 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Then all the Stark children but Sansa have died?  Interesting theory.  I agree with you about Bran (Meera basically said so for us), but I don't agree about Arya.  IMO, she's still very much alive - as a homicidal sociopath.

ETA:  By the way, I also don't agree with the people who say that Jon is a zombie.  He's been brought back from the dead, but he's far from a zombie.  He's proven that he still has a soul.

Thing is we havent seen him eat or sleep, and GRRM words are in the air.

[YaddaYadda]

14 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

When did Winterfell catch fire?  Maybe it was all inadvertently destroyed anyway.

Winterfell was never sacked on the show as far as I remember. The ironborn betrayed Theon and opened the gates to Ramsay and they walked out of there unharmed. The books are a different matter. 

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Saying she's a better person than psychopaths does nothing, I've already acknowledged this. But if that's what you aspire to for her, sure, she's breaking the hell out of the wheel.

No, it was a comparison of who each is aligning with -- and how they're utilizing the alliances.  You skipped the mention of the demand to end the raping and reaving, whilst the other side repeatedly allies with and deploys these methods again and again.   I said nothing about aspiring anything for Dany.   My comment was simply an accounting of some facts of the situation.  I don't believe I was wrong about any of them.  Facts and aspirations are different things.

[FnkyChkn34]

12 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Thing is we havent seen him eat or sleep, and GRRM words are in the air.

Have we seen any of them eat or sleep?  Haven't seen Sansa, Dany, Tyrion, etc. eat or sleep.  We saw Arya (disgustingly) eat a pie, and Cersei drinks wine.  Otherwise, I don't think any of them are shown eating or sleeping.

What are GRRM's words?

[Tikichick]

20 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

This is one of the reasons why I think Arya is a sociopath.  She doesn't have the same human emotions as a normal person should.

Yeah, I couldn't remember.  Thanks.  So they probably threw out everything the Boltons brought in.

So you think it's out of the bounds of normal for someone who saw her father's brutal death, the hideous aftermath of her brother's brutal death, knows her mother also brutally died and witnessed countless other acts of brutality including the murder of a friend, tortuous murders of fellow captives at Harrenhall and many other acts of violence and murder amidst years of being on the run to be driven to murderous intent?  Particularly when someone experiences most of this while still a child, and is for all intents and purposes alone when it comes to caring and nurturing herself during these years? 

A girl had many more reasons to remain a nameless assassin if a sociopath is all that is left of her.  Instead she chose to resume a life as Arya Stark again, immediately resuming her mission for revenge of her family until  the moment she heard she actually had family in the place she calls home.

[FnkyChkn34]

12 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Winterfell was never sacked on the show as far as I remember. The ironborn betrayed Theon and opened the gates to Ramsay and they walked out of there unharmed. The books are a different matter. 

Winterfell was shown as a smoldering pile of ashes in the opening credits, so I'm pretty sure it was destroyed on the show as well.

[screamin]

14 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Thing is we havent seen him eat or sleep, and GRRM words are in the air.

Didn't we see him drink ale with Sansa?

[FnkyChkn34]

2 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

So you think it's out of the bounds of normal for someone who saw her father's brutal death, the hideous aftermath of her brother's brutal death, knows her mother also brutally died and witnessed countless other acts of brutality including the murder of a friend, tortuous murders of fellow captives at Harrenhall and many other acts of violence and murder amidst years of being on the run to be driven to murderous intent?  Particularly when someone experiences most of this while still a child, and is for all intents and purposes alone when it comes to caring and nurturing herself during these years? 

A girl had many more reasons to remain a nameless assassin if a sociopath is all that is left of her.  Instead she chose to resume a life as Arya Stark again, immediately resuming her mission for revenge of her family until  the moment she heard she actually had family in the place she calls home.

Doesn't matter her reasons or what drove her there - she's still a sociopath.  Sure, we can make excuses for her, but she is what she is.  All my opinion, of course, and she's also my least favorite main character.

[YaddaYadda]

3 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Winterfell was shown as a smoldering pile of ashes in the opening credits, so I'm pretty sure it was destroyed on the show as well.

LOL, I remember the credits and cannot remember that it happened on the show at all. That's pretty sad.

[FnkyChkn34]

Just now, YaddaYadda said:

LOL, I remember the credits and cannot remember that it happened on the show at all. That's pretty sad.

Samesies.  I vaguely remember something, but not details or when it happened.

[Blonde Gator]

7 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Have we seen any of them eat or sleep?  Haven't seen Sansa, Dany, Tyrion, etc. eat or sleep.  We saw Arya (disgustingly) eat a pie, and Cersei drinks wine.  Otherwise, I don't think any of them are shown eating or sleeping.

What are GRRM's words?

Beric Dondarrion (and therefore Jon Snow) is a fire wight.  Which is somehow different than an ice wight.

http://wikiofthrones.com/9626/george-r-r-martin-reveals-beric-dondarrion-wight-animated-fire/

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Doesn't matter her reasons or what drove her there - she's still a sociopath.  Sure, we can make excuses for her, but she is what she is.  All my opinion, of course, and she's also my least favorite main character.

Cersei is probably my least favorite main character and I can find ways where she was very wronged and understandably is determined to be in a place of power and never one of vulnerability again.  I don't watch from a vantage point of I like you, I root for you, I will never root for you, etc.  I try to look at every character from their shoes, from the totality of their circumstances.  I can even look at Ramsey and see where he was both genetically damaged and handed a very raw deal from the start.  

[Blonde Gator]

10 minutes ago, screamin said:

Didn't we see him drink ale with Sansa?

The reunion of Jon/Sansa over dinner.  This is when Tormund first started taking a leering interest in Brienne.

[DarkRaichu]

5 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

LOL, I remember the credits and cannot remember that it happened on the show at all. That's pretty sad.

IIRC Theon burned it as they fled the incoming attack from the Boltons.   

[Clawdette]

When Sansa arrives at Castle Black there is a scene where a group is sitting around a table eating.  Edd apologizes for the quality of the food.  Jon was at the table and I'm pretty sure he was taking part in the meal.

 

Just behind Blonde Gator!

Edited August 16, 2017 by Clawdette

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

The reunion of Jon/Sansa over dinner.  This is when Tormund first started taking a leering interest in Brienne.

Thank you, that was niggling at the back of my brain and had me wondering if I had just assumed they were shown dining, catching up and taking a breath after the Boltons.

[Blonde Gator]

13 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Doesn't matter her reasons or what drove her there - she's still a sociopath.  Sure, we can make excuses for her, but she is what she is.  All my opinion, of course, and she's also my least favorite main character.

I have a good friend who is a psychiatrist, and also a GOT fan.  I'm going to ask him about some of the GOT characters re: sociopath/psychopath, etc.  Anyone else on the list for whom we'd like a specific "diagnosis"?  So far, my list is Arya, Cersei, Joffrey, Dany, Sansa.

14 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

LOL, I remember the credits and cannot remember that it happened on the show at all. That's pretty sad.

Let me guess.....you find the Greyjoys annoying and a waste of time.  And fast-forwarded through Ramsay Bolton torture scenes.   Oh, and the burning of Winterfell was in one of the lesser seasons of GOT.  Too much awful writing, particularly in Jon goes rogue beyond the wall storyline.    Oh wait, that was me!

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, Blonde Gator said:

I have a good friend who is a psychiatrist, and also a GOT fan.  I'm going to ask him about some of the GOT characters re: sociopath/psychopath, etc.  Anyone else on the list for whom we'd like a specific "diagnosis"?  So far, my list is Arya, Cersei, Joffrey, Dany, Sansa.

How about Jamie?  I'm not sure there's a single viewer who hasn't looked and said WTF about Jamie.  He heard and AGREED with the bald face truth from the QOT, and went back anyway.

[GrailKing]

39 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Have we seen any of them eat or sleep?  Haven't seen Sansa, Dany, Tyrion, etc. eat or sleep.  We saw Arya (disgustingly) eat a pie, and Cersei drinks wine.  Otherwise, I don't think any of them are shown eating or sleeping.

What are GRRM's words?

Jon is more of a fire wight

39 minutes ago, screamin said:

Didn't we see him drink ale with Sansa?

yeah , I forgot that, the Notherners must have super low metabolism.

[Oscirus]

44 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Have we seen any of them eat or sleep?  Haven't seen Sansa, Dany, Tyrion, etc. eat or sleep.  We saw Arya (disgustingly) eat a pie, and Cersei drinks wine.  Otherwise, I don't think any of them are shown eating or sleeping.

What are GRRM's words?

Tyrion drinks all the time. Like when don't we see Tyrion drinking would be a better question. 

Perhaps Dany should institute a drinking minimum for Tyrion so he can come up with better plans

Edited August 16, 2017 by Oscirus