S07.E01: Dragonstone

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, Francie said:

My argument would be that Cersei exactly understood, better than most, what Margaery was about.  Margaery had an aspiration to move Cersei out of power.  You seem to be suggesting that Cersei should have been totally cool with that. Cersei had Margaery's number from the start. 

 

 

Then perhaps she shouldn't have jumped in and offered herself up before knowing, yes? She put herself on the menu when she didn't have to be at all.  It was her naked ambition to be the queen that had her pay no heed to whether that was a smart choice or not. So, she should get about as much sympathy as Cersei should for signing on to a deal when she didn't have good measure of what its impact would be. 

 

 

Yes, and that's why I hold them, in large parts, in equal amounts contempt and respect.  I like Olenna as a character. I like Cersei. And they are more cut from the same cloth than many people would like to admit.  And, of the two, Cersei's the only one who didn't murder a teen age boy.  On can try to justify it if one likes. But that is a fact. 

 

 

I love the line where Olenna straight out asks Cersei, "What are you going to do? Kill them all."  Olenna seriously underestimated Cersei. And that, to me, made for a deliciously interesting story. Why, yes, as a matter of fact, she is. And she did. Not recognizing what Cersei would do when her back was up against the wall was her most serious miscalculation. 

 

 

Then re-watch the scene, it's made absolutely clear as to what Olenna's plan was. She intended that Joffrey's death be ruled a choking. Short of that, she served Sansa up on a platter.  You don't dangle the murder weapon from someone's neck without knowing that you're setting that person up as the fall person. 

You're assigning thoughts behind my words that are not mine.

The fact that I noted Cersei recognized Margaery's intentions doesn't connote any belief on my part that Cersei should have made way for her.

Noting the circumstancees Margaery found herself involved in when she made the bid to marry Joffrey was context, not a bid for sympathy.  It is what it is.

I am crying no tears over Joffrey's murder, teenage boy/teenage sadist.  Nope, I'm not questioning Olenna's motives there.  Matter of fact I remember a boy who wasn't even a teen getting no mercy from Cersei -- of course he got lucky and lived, but will never walk again.  Cersei also made no move to save young Micah -- but of course he was only the butcher's boy, no harm, no foul there.  As the Queen and the mother in that circumstance she had the ability to stop that murder from happening.  Perhaps her justification is she never got her hands directly dirty?  Maybe that works for you, not me.

As I said, the Tyrells and the Lannisters were both playing the same tune.  It wasn't exactly a secret, except maybe to the sitting Lord Tyrell, who Olenna rightfully pegged a fool, son or not.  Olenna had been betrothed to a Targaryen in her day, as had Cersei.  Neither marriage took place.  Plenty of parallels, plenty of recognition of their own kind.  Precisely why Olenna would NEVER have trusted Cersei's offer to aid in Loras' release.  The only thing that moved her to depart KL was the assurance she got from Margaery herself to do exactly that.  She thought Margaery had a handle on things when she saw the rose she had drawn and decided to heed Margaery's word to get out of Cersei's grip & hopefully provide backup from the position of Highgarden.  

Of course they miscalculated Cersei's plans.  Of course that deliciously ironic line was scripted for Olenna to say to Cersei for the audience to get the humor later.  Interestingly enough the ONLY one in the sept who realized the danger was Margaery herself, albeit too late.  Just because smart people don't win every battle doesn't mean they're less smart.  We have to remember that as the audience we have a hell of a vantage point to get insight into much more than any one person or one family could ever be expected to manage.

[benteen]

Cersei is insane and she really has nothing left to lose at this point.  Anyone trusting her would be crazy.  I wish Jaime didn't trust her but I've accepted the fact that D&D have moved away from his much better book characterization and storyline a long time ago.

[Tikichick]

9 minutes ago, KarenTargaryen said:

As lord of Greywater Watch, would/should Howland Reed (a northern lord) be at the gathering in Winterfell with the rest of the northern lords?

Unless I miss my guess, the writers are taking cues from Martin here.  Howland Reed is the only living survivor of the events of the Tower of Joy.  Clearly Ned had an understanding with Howland.

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

This topic is to discuss episode 1, it is not a free for all discussion topic. Please take speculation about future events and/or discussion of past events to the appropriate topics.  

Thank you.

[Blonde Gator]

40 minutes ago, KarenTargaryen said:

As lord of Greywater Watch, would/should Howland Reed (a northern lord) be at the gathering in Winterfell with the rest of the northern lords?

An excellent question, and an astute observation.    Howland Reed, one of Ned Stark's best friends, and Lyanna's as well (Knight of the Laughing Tree, Tourney of Harrenhall) has been mysteriously absent, both on screen and in dialog, with the exception of Meera Reed mentioning him, and Bran's flashback to the Tower of Joy last season.  Howland Reed obviously holds a major key to what happens in the future, the independent confirmation of Jon's parentage.   

I suspect Dolorous Edd had exactly zero idea who Meera Reed, daughter of Lord Howland Reed was in this episode, when she announced her identity.  Poor Meera looked like she had one nerve left, and Edd's question was on it!  It will be interesting to see how long it takes before the show to kicks Meera back to the swamp, or to pull in her father into the story.  Odd fact, the Reed sigil was never clearly described in GRRM's books, so the show used a fan fiction concept for the show.  How cool would that be if you were the artist of the Reed sigil?

Great catch.

Edited July 20, 2017 by Blonde Gator
oops! Meera's a daughter

[GrailKing]

57 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Am I the only one that was bothered by the realization that Winterfell now has to rely on Maester who served the Boltons and seems none too bright?  Really bugs me thinking back to the days of Maester Luwin, and even Jon's time at the wall with Maester Aemon.  Make haste, Maester Samwell!

Particularly scary if I remember Maester Qyburn is still involved 1,000 miles away.

Nope I mentioned the same and so have others, My thought was Sansa finding out Wolkam being used by LF ( sort of like Cobray in the Vale ).

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Nope I mentioned the same and so have others, My thought was Sansa finding out Wolkam being used by LF ( sort of like Cobray in the Vale ).

Interesting, and scary thought.

[Raachel2008]

18 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

It's been hinted that magic creatures cannot pass the wall -- cannot even get near it comfortably.  I assume that's why TV-zombie Uncle Benjen dropped off Bran and Meera by the weirwood tree instead of carrying them all the way to the gate.  It's more explicit in the book that the Wall is warded against wights (Book-zombie Uncle Benjen comes right out and says he cannot pass through the door under the Night Fort).  I always assumed it was warded against White Walkers as well.

But maybe the arrival of winter makes them stronger, being able to surpassas whatever magic is bound to the wall. Maybe Sam will find something in the Citadel about it.

8 hours ago, Dev F said:

It's frustrating to see the show resort to this kind of retconning, because it's exactly the opposite of the sort of writing problems the show had in its earlier, more book-based seasons

Yeah, that's annoying. I don't mind some retconning, as long as it minor and palusible or like you said, book based reasons - though I'm not quite sure what to think about the Jane Pooley/Arya/Sansa/Jon mess.

What really annoys me is that most of the time, things can be solved with one line or two of dialogues. 20 seconds of screentime. Like others pointed, Lyanna could have told Glover that in Bear Island women have always thought - and not made women who don't fight as lesser,  Jon could have asked who among the Northern houses had a sword or any piece of Valyrian steel or knew who had. And Sam could have found anything else, ANYTHING, because it is the Citadel and all Westeros history is there. But noooo, let's pretend Sam ddin't hear when Stannis said there is dragonglass in Dragonstone. So easy to fix; "Oh, look,  this old paer says that if you paint dragonglass blue it makes it even more powerful. Or if spill sea water on it it is able to weigh less. Or look: dragon glass needs to be burnt in a billions degrees to become more than simply obsidian and look who has dragons blah blah blah.

[Dev F]

39 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

What really annoys me is that most of the time, things can be solved with one line or two of dialogues. 20 seconds of screentime. Like others pointed, Lyanna could have told Glover that in Bear Island women have always thought - and not made women who don't fight as lesser,  Jon could have asked who among the Northern houses had a sword or any piece of Valyrian steel or knew who had. And Sam could have found anything else, ANYTHING, because it is the Citadel and all Westeros history is there. But noooo, let's pretend Sam ddin't hear when Stannis said there is dragonglass in Dragonstone. So easy to fix; "Oh, look,  this old paer says that if you paint dragonglass blue it makes it even more powerful. Or if spill sea water on it it is able to weigh less. Or look: dragon glass needs to be burnt in a billions degrees to become more than simply obsidian and look who has dragons blah blah blah.

Exactly. And even if they really, really needed the next plot point to be "Jon realizes he has to go to Dragonstone," which is where I assume this is headed, that wouldn't be hard to explain in another, non-retconny way. Like, maybe Jon wasn't going to worry about mining more dragonglass until he dealt with all his other problems, but Sam discovers that the Dragonstone volcano is going to erupt soon and ruin the whole supply if he doesn't act now. Or Jon is planning to mine a bunch of dragonglass somewhere else and doesn't think he needs the Dragonstone supply, but Sam discovers that only obsidian that's been torched by dragonfire has anti-Walker effects, so only the stash on Dragonstone will work.

I mean, neither of those solutions is particularly elegant, but that's just off the top of my head. And at least something like that would acknowledge what's already been established and attempt not to step all over it. Heck, even if the writers had not acknowledged the earlier conversation with Stannis at all, I could assume they'd just forgotten about it. But they brought it up specifically, and then made no effort to ensure that the new material was actually consistent with that previous conversation. It's hard to interpret that as anything but They don't give a shit.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Dev F

[kieyra]

19 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Don't, Tyrion was having the time of his life.  He's got his dragons and his books as long as he's not suffering from the dts he should be fine.

Re: my feeling bad about Tyrion and the stairs. It's been a while since I gave up on the books, but I thought I recalled that the pain of walking any great distance was a common theme for the character.

[stillshimpy]

On 7/19/2017 at 6:09 AM, Constantinople said:

Sansa has been frequently criticized in this episode for not providing Jon with more specific intelligence about what Cersei could or might do (as if in the real world people have step by step instructions on what their enemies will do).

 

Well, to my mind "She's found a way to murder every one who...." Is a pretty concise and specific piece of intelligence.  I know he's back from the dead and all but surely Jon knows what the word murder actually means.  I don't think Jon's thinking Cersei runs around killing people herself, so the implication would clearly be that she has people murdered, I'd think.  

Jon knows about Bran too, that someone tried to have his brother murdered.   I don't know that Sansa could have gone into a ton of detail there or that she would have to since they are both standing there because of the Red Wedding.   Jon knows that the Lannister Army doesn't have to be present for someone to be working for or on behalf of the Lannisters.  

[screamin]

1 hour ago, Raachel2008 said:

 Like others pointed, Lyanna could have told Glover that in Bear Island women have always thought - and not made women who don't fight as lesser.  

And the hilarious thing is that a visual clue in the episode itself already hints pretty broadly that in the North it is socially acceptable for women to fight. When Alys Karstark is asked to swear fealty, she matter-of-factly draws a sword that she is already wearing. The fact that this seems to be part of her ceremonial wear (nothing we've seen a stereotypical Westerosi 'lady' wear as part of her regular clothes - certainly we've never seen Sansa wear one) seems to imply, along with the combative Mormont ladies, that Northern women being ready to fight is not uncommon. The sight of the sword itself clashes with the whole angry protest of the Northerners at the very idea of training their little girls to fight. It makes no sense, writers. Pick a view and stick to it - especially in the same scene.

[GrailKing]

8 minutes ago, screamin said:

And the hilarious thing is that a visual clue in the episode itself already hints pretty broadly that in the North it is socially acceptable for women to fight. When Alys Karstark is asked to swear fealty, she matter-of-factly draws a sword that she is already wearing. The fact that this seems to be part of her ceremonial wear (nothing we've seen a stereotypical Westerosi 'lady' wear as part of her regular clothes - certainly we've never seen Sansa wear one) seems to imply, along with the combative Mormont ladies, that Northern women being ready to fight is not uncommon. The sight of the sword itself clashes with the whole angry protest of the Northerners at the very idea of training their little girls to fight. It makes no sense, writers. Pick a view and stick to it - especially in the same scene.

Go back to last year: Sams sister ( IRC) and mom talk about meeting a Lord umber and it's said the girls are taught to hunt, which means spears, bows and swords.

[Raachel2008]

1 hour ago, screamin said:

The sight of the sword itself clashes with the whole angry protest of the Northerners at the very idea of training their little girls to fight. It makes no sense, writers. Pick a view and stick to it - especially in the same scene.

But not all the Northern lords protested. In fact, the only person who reacted was Glover. And see, it is okay if he doesn't want to train his granddaughter. Ned didn't train his daughters when they were living in Winterfell. It seems to me that it was up to each House, so Umbers, Karstarks and Mormonts girls learned how to fight, while Starks and Glovers didn't. Could be a House thing. Could be a generation thing. Could be a class thing and only the noble ladies learn that in some houses or maybe the noble ladies are the ones who don't.

 My problem is that Lyanna didn't say it, she didn't tell Glover that in Bear Island women learn how to fight, and her mother was killed at the Red Wedding after fighting for Robb. 

Instead, what we got was Lyanna being an echo for all web/tumblr social warriors and being the sassy girl who told the old white guy to shut up. And she did it while offending the women who don't fight like her. The message was clear: knitting is a lesser thing, women who knit are lesser than the ones who know how to swing the sword. This, in the same room where the woman sitting next to the king is  his sister who doesn't fight and that just last season was seen sewing whatever it was that she made for him.

D&D think they are ooooh, so pro-women and pro-feminism, and the media buys that stupid shit they pull up (much like those social warriors at Tumblr). But the truth is, they don't have a fucking clue. If they had, when Jon was crowened king, there would have been at least a couple of women in that room other than Sansa and Lyanna. It is just absurd that after the Red Wedding, when several Northern Lords and/or their heirs where killed, no woman other than Lyanna had to lead her House, either because the men still alive are too young or because there was no men left - which, by the way repeated itself again in this episode, with the addition of Alys Karstark - Brienne doesn't count.

Also, sorry for all the typos in my previous post. I was on my phone and autocorrect failed me.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Raachel2008

[stillshimpy]

1 hour ago, screamin said:

And the hilarious thing is that a visual clue in the episode itself already hints pretty broadly that in the North it is socially acceptable for women to fight. When Alys Karstark is asked to swear fealty, she matter-of-factly draws a sword that she is already wearing. The fact that this seems to be part of her ceremonial wear (nothing we've seen a stereotypical Westerosi 'lady' wear as part of her regular clothes - certainly we've never seen Sansa wear one) seems to imply, along with the combative Mormont ladies, that Northern women being ready to fight is not uncommon. The sight of the sword itself clashes with the whole angry protest of the Northerners at the very idea of training their little girls to fight. It makes no sense, writers. Pick a view and stick to it - especially in the same scene.

Thank you, that entire thing seemed to exist to let Lyanna Mormont speak truth to Patriarchal power a bit and I'm all for that but it was almost entirely nonsensical.  If John's trying to say there will be compulsory service, dude, it's not like you can be trained to fight well quickly and frankly, most of that kind of battle depends on well developed upper body strength and skill.  Not in an either/or capacity.  You can't just instantly stir up fit soldiers in that kind of battle.   

You can't just conjure a skilled army with a decision to do so.  It was meant to be a "Hell, yeah!" type of moment and it was more of an "Hell...huh?"  because Jon's talking about fighting that army of the dead that cut a swath through brothers of the Night's Watch, what in the world does he think the children (or the untrained) are going to be able to do that will help?  Trip them?   

[kieyra]

I fanwanked myself into the ladies and kids staying home to make arrows and, uh, roll bandages. It's only one level of abstraction away from actually fighting!

Okay, I give up, the showrunners are either completely tone-deaf and too insulated by truckloads of cash to care, or they intentionally do this stuff because it drives so much online controversy. Sometimes I feel like the best protest is to not contribute to more online traffic (fighting) for them.

[GrailKing]

I'll just repeat, they are making LM a 1 note person and making other lords fools through her.

They would have done better to have her tell why on Bear Island men and women fight side by side, they then could have Jon, Davos or Tormond explain the need for the women to be trained, they had Brieene , Podrick and best of all The Lady of Winterfell who can attest to women are capable if properly trained.

Now to Glover's defense he echos, what most fathers or head of household feel war is a dirty thing not suitable for "Ladies" most countries for years kept women from front line fighting in our world.

OT : Hell my wife was upset with me when I told my daughter when she threw her equal rights to do what she wants at any time ( while we are supporting her ) my reply : when she is required to sign up to the selective service like her brother or other males to get college aid she can use her  full equal rights.

I'm all for equality but it flows both ways.

We have front line woman,pilots etc, but women can still get aid without a draft hanging over their heads.

Edited July 21, 2017 by GrailKing
our for are.

[Gertrude]

9 hours ago, Francie said:

 Then perhaps she shouldn't have jumped in and offered herself up before knowing, yes? She put herself on the menu when she didn't have to be at all.  It was her naked ambition to be the queen that had her pay no heed to whether that was a smart choice or not. So, she should get about as much sympathy as Cersei should for signing on to a deal when she didn't have good measure of what its impact would be. 

Yes, and that's why I hold them, in large parts, in equal amounts contempt and respect.  I like Olenna as a character. I like Cersei. And they are more cut from the same cloth than many people would like to admit. And, of the two, Cersei's the only one who didn't murder a teen age boy.  On can try to justify it if one likes. But that is a fact.

I'm not disagreeing that the Tyrell women didn't deserve what they got. They chose to play this game knowing the stakes and they forged ahead. Book Marjory it is less clear to me what she wanted vs what her family wanted, but she is a willing enough pawn. Show Marge is a player playing with fire. Olenna killed Joff - that is also a monstrous act with complete disregard for the consequences to anyone not her family. I don't feel sympathy for any of these people. Small moments here and there, but overall not a chance. I may enjoy their characters, but it's not because I admire them. As for Cersei not murdering a teen-aged boy, I'm sure she did. There had to be a teen-aged or two or twenty boy located in the radius of that blast. But let's take that out of the equation. Book Cersei killed/ let die her friend. A teen-aged girl who had the audacity to have a crush on her brother. Honestly, that is the root of my dislike for Cersei and I don't separate book and show cleanly. My book view informs the show characters. Even if we're going by show Cersei only, she's more sympathetic, but not to the point where I can forgive her for being a miserable wretch to everyone around her.

57 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

because Jon's talking about fighting that army of the dead that cut a swath through brothers of the Night's Watch, what in the world does he think the children (or the untrained) are going to be able to do that will help?  Trip them?   

If they just need to light the wights on fire, that makes it easier to whip up a bunch of fighters from nothing. Have them keep the fires lit and flowing freely to the front line and archers.

[Oscirus]

I swear from the way they show us all these anachronistic women in the North, you'd figure that Sansa was the exception as opposed to the norm,

 

Here's something that occured to me, the fact that Cersei knows all of Dany's movements and even her  hand tells me that Qyburn is using his birds much better then Varys is. 

[OhOkayWhat]

Watching Arya and BwB scenes in Episode 7x01 made it more clear to me that it was a good narrative decision to exclude Lady Stoneheart from the show plot.

Edited July 21, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[benteen]

3 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Watching Arya and BwB scenes in Episode 7x01 made it more clear to me that it was a good narrative decision to exclude Lady Stoneheart from the show plot.

Agreed.  Arya is fulfilling the Stoneheart role while the decision to having the Hound join up with the non-corrupted Brotherhood is really paying off.

[Constantinople]

8 hours ago, Oscirus said:

I swear from the way they show us all these anachronistic women in the North, you'd figure that Sansa was the exception as opposed to the norm,

 

Here's something that occured to me, the fact that Cersei knows all of Dany's movements and even her  hand tells me that Qyburn is using his birds much better then Varys is. 

It's hard to keep an armada totally secret, and the identity of Dany's hand isn't critical information.

[that one guy]

14 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

On 7/19/2017 at 11:52 PM, WatchrTina said:

It's been hinted that magic creatures cannot pass the wall -- cannot even get near it comfortably.  I assume that's why TV-zombie Uncle Benjen dropped off Bran and Meera by the weirwood tree instead of carrying them all the way to the gate.  It's more explicit in the book that the Wall is warded against wights (Book-zombie Uncle Benjen comes right out and says he cannot pass through the door under the Night Fort).  I always assumed it was warded against White Walkers as well.

But maybe the arrival of winter makes them stronger, being able to surpassas whatever magic is bound to the wall. Maybe Sam will find something in the Citadel about it.

The Hound's vision of Eastwatch by the Sea made me think of a possibility that hadn't occurred to me before. The Wall is warded, and the army of the dead can't pass through, under or over it. But the Wall doesn't circle the globe. Apparently the western edge runs into mountains so impassible even the wights can't get through the (seems doubtful but I'll take it on faith). But Eastwatch is the end of the wall, on the coast. If the White Walkers bring the winter with them, what if they can freeze the bay? I live in Chicago, in severe cold sometimes Lake Michigan is covered with ice a quarter mile or more out from shore. It's not thick enough to walk on, and people die trying almost every year. But perhaps the Walkers can freeze the bay enough for an army to walk on it? In which case, they can bypass the Wall altogether. Alternatively, wights don't need to breathe, maybe they can just swim or walk underwater - that doesn't help the Walkers themselves, though, who appear magical, but who knows if they can swim loaded up with armor and weapons?

Speaking of winter, did it bother anyone else that it was snowing where the Hound was, but not where Arya was? The house the Hound and the Brothers were staying at was the one the Hound and Arya stayed at, before the Hound robbed the residents, whom he buried this week. That much seems perfectly clear. But the Hound and Arya stayed there after the Red Wedding, on the way to the Eyre, right? That puts it southeast of the Twins. Arya just came from the Twins, and is heading for Kings' Landing. Heading southeast, in other words. So Arya and the Hound should be in close proximity at the moment, or at least at a similar lattitude. If it's snowing where the Hound is, it should be snowing where Arya is, too. She might be a bit south of him, but it shouldn't appear to be a completely different season. If the Hound is headed north from the riverlands, but hasn't reached the Twins yet, how far could Arya possibly have gotten? She's certainly not south of Harrenhall yet. I'm not saying the show should go back to sidelining characters for weeks because of travel times, but to me this was a big continuity error. It seems like they were so focused on having that pop singer there, they forgot that it was supposed to be snowing.

[Joan van Snark]

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but I noticed in the credits for this episode that Nathalie Emanuel has a solo credit right after most of the main cast.  She must have a really good agent!  I really don't see how she even deserves to be in the main credits honestly.  She has never been more than but a very minor character.  I mean Rory McCann has to share credits with another actor but Dany's interpreter gets a solo credit....huh?  Does this mean we should expect Missandei to have an increased role this season?

[GrailKing]

3 minutes ago, Joan van Snark said:

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but I noticed in the credits for this episode that Nathalie Emanuel has a solo credit right after most of the main cast.  She must have a really good agent!  I really don't see how she even deserves to be in the main credits honestly.  She has never been more than but a very minor character.  I mean Rory McCann has to share credits with another actor but Dany's interpreter gets a solo credit....huh?  Does this mean we should expect Missandei to have an increased role this season?

I'm thinking as the cast thins, the remaining weekly cast, slide up to enter main cast.

I think she could have an important part, I'm one to believe it's quite hard to end a race of people, so she could be the one to decipher the others language and help form a new pact.

OR..she betrays Danni for love of GW.

[screamin]

13 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

But not all the Northern lords protested. In fact, the only person who reacted was Glover.

So then, Glover feels it's okay to pretty much publically shout that that all his fellow lords who allow their girls and womenfolk to routinely learn the art of fighting are barbarians? Seems uncommonly tactless of him.

IIRC, there was quite a bit of shouting went up after Jon decreed that girls and women would drill militarily, that seemed to indicate that objection to the idea was more widespread than just one man (Glover). I could be wrong about that. To me, it's still bad writing for them to say at the same time that women fighting in the North are unthinkable while showing that women fighting in the North are commonplace.

[Mabinogia]

It was probably more "girls" fighting that got them all worked up. Women fighting, okay, but my baby girl! My little bargaining chip? What if she gets maimed? No one with anything I want is going to pay to marry her if she's battle wounded!

It was certainly more than Glover who objected. He just objected the loudest.

I am guessing some houses train all their people, even girls,  some don't. Those who don't, their women and children are essentially going to be cannon fodder. They know this and they don't like it. There is no way a completely untrained 10 year old is going to be battle ready in the short time they have. They're going to be WW target practice.

[FnkyChkn34]

11 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Here's something that occured to me, the fact that Cersei knows all of Dany's movements and even her  hand tells me that Qyburn is using his birds much better then Varys is. 

Well, Varys didn't have any lines.  We don't know what he does and doesn't know.

There are still merchants and traders sailing back and forth, right?  Surely someone saw Yara sail there and/or all of them sailing back.  It may not be Qyburn at all, and it was Jaime who came up with Dragonstone.

[Blonde Gator]

1 hour ago, that one guy said:

The Hound's vision of Eastwatch by the Sea made me think of a possibility that hadn't occurred to me before. The Wall is warded, and the army of the dead can't pass through, under or over it. But the Wall doesn't circle the globe. Apparently the western edge runs into mountains so impassible even the wights can't get through the (seems doubtful but I'll take it on faith). But Eastwatch is the end of the wall, on the coast. If the White Walkers bring the winter with them, what if they can freeze the bay? I live in Chicago, in severe cold sometimes Lake Michigan is covered with ice a quarter mile or more out from shore. It's not thick enough to walk on, and people die trying almost every year. But perhaps the Walkers can freeze the bay enough for an army to walk on it? In which case, they can bypass the Wall altogether. Alternatively, wights don't need to breathe, maybe they can just swim or walk underwater - that doesn't help the Walkers themselves, though, who appear magical, but who knows if they can swim loaded up with armor and weapons?

 

Hammer meet nail.  Apparently, the original script had Clegane saying "the waves are frozen".  So we know he's seen Eastwatch by the Sea.   Also, we have people who've been to Hardhome saying "dead things in the water"....were the dead things moving?  Perhaps only the WW can't swim, heh.  Here's an article about the Hound's vision.

https://showsnob.com/2017/07/18/hounds-vision-different-original-game-thrones-s7-premiere-script/

[Blonde Gator]

54 minutes ago, screamin said:

So then, Glover feels it's okay to pretty much publically shout that that all his fellow lords who allow their girls and womenfolk to routinely learn the art of fighting are barbarians? Seems uncommonly tactless of him.

IIRC, there was quite a bit of shouting went up after Jon decreed that girls and women would drill militarily, that seemed to indicate that objection to the idea was more widespread than just one man (Glover). I could be wrong about that. To me, it's still bad writing for them to say at the same time that women fighting in the North are unthinkable while showing that women fighting in the North are commonplace.

It seems that this show lacks a "director of continuity" or whatever that position would be titled in show biz.  Your point is excellent.  We have lots of little "oopsies", particularly from season to season.  As several people have pointed out, Dragonglass/Dragonstone was discussed by Stannis & Sam at the Wall.  Sam's Mom also mentioned a visit with a Northern Lord, whose daughters were excellent at hunting.  And so on.  It seems that everyone is so madly trying to wrap this story up, from point A to point B, that no one is paying attention to things that the viewers SHOULD know.  Having said that, most book readers are hyper aware of the background of so much more of Westeros than the Unsullied viewers are, that the producers/writers may feel they need to remind the ordinary viewers of certain things that may have been forgotten in between long waits for new episodes.   It would be a GREAT question to ask of a GOT panel at Comicon or in an interview of D&D, etc.  Hopefully, some day we'll have that question answered. 

[Oscirus]

44 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Well, Varys didn't have any lines.  We don't know what he does and doesn't know.

There are still merchants and traders sailing back and forth, right?  Surely someone saw Yara sail there and/or all of them sailing back.  It may not be Qyburn at all, and it was Jaime who came up with Dragonstone.

Thats begs a popular internet question. If they knew where Dany was landing, why did they let her land there?

[screamin]

32 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

It was probably more "girls" fighting that got them all worked up. Women fighting, okay, but my baby girl! My little bargaining chip? What if she gets maimed? No one with anything I want is going to pay to marry her if she's battle wounded!

It was certainly more than Glover who objected. He just objected the loudest.

I am guessing some houses train all their people, even girls,  some don't. Those who don't, their women and children are essentially going to be cannon fodder. They know this and they don't like it. There is no way a completely untrained 10 year old is going to be battle ready in the short time they have. They're going to be WW target practice.

Thing is, in this universe, if you want a really competent swordsman, you have to start when they're still children. We see this abundantly in the books and (I think) the show also, where the boys Bran's age at the start of the show start training with wooden swords (while Arya looks on enviously and screws up her sewing). It wouldn't make any sense for the North to start drilling their boys to fight since they are children, and to say that it's okay for grown women to fight - but they shouldn't train and actually get good at it from childhood the way the boys do. It would be a completely incoherent point of view.

As for Jon's decree that the children must train - we know that the show has only two seasons left and things are going to happen fast, but Jon doesn't know that. Currently the wall's still standing and Jon's sending the wildlings to help defend it. He's likely hoping that he can hold the Night King back for months, or longer - the Wall is a formidable obstacle, it was BUILT to hold the Night King back. In the meantime his aim, I think, is to get everyone ready potentially to fight in case the Wall is eventually breached and they must retreat. It would be kind of like the way the Israeli army is managed - women are trained in combat along with the men in basic training. They aren't generally deployed in combat, mainly in support and administrative positions, but in cases of dire need, they're ready.

[Athena]

4 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Thats begs a popular internet question. If they knew where Dany was landing, why did they let her land there?

Most people consider Dragonstone useless. It's why Robert kicked Stannis there after the rebellion. It's a good strategic point to launch if you have forces but in terms of actual economic value, no reason for Cersei or Euron to pick a battle there. Cersei is broke, diminished resources/allies, and has too many enemies to start another battle easily. Euron can take the ships with his fleet but he'd be risking damage from dragons.

[FnkyChkn34]

18 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Thats begs a popular internet question. If they knew where Dany was landing, why did they let her land there?

No one has the ships or the manpower to stop her right now.  That's why Cersei needs an alliance with Euron - she needs his ships and men.  

Plus, dragons.  Who/what is going to stop them anyway?

[Stephanie1216]

Dev F thank you. The writers have given up. They used the have some great dialogue or ideas. Now they are working in scenes for pop stars. 

Also, the cold opening with Arya at the Twins. How did regular viewers act surprised by that scene? We knew Arya had already killed Walder. Last season Arya killing Walder was so satisfying. But somehow this scene was ok. It needed to be done, yay the Freys are dead. But more questions popped up for me. The Lannisters have River Run the Freys have the Twins and Edmure. Why would Arya set up the Freys killing without plans for the aftermath?  Kill the Freys, Jamie knows about it, all he has to do is send some soldiers and take the Twins. That just hurts the North. OR did she release Edmure, he was able to round up some Tully soldiers somehow and they took the Twins? 

The writers are leaving too many holes. The North Remembers but let's give the Lannisters the Twins and control of the crossing. 

Not enough episodes left to fool around with. b&b need to answer some question 

[Constantinople]

23 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

No one has the ships or the manpower to stop her right now.  That's why Cersei needs an alliance with Euron - she needs his ships and men.  

Plus, dragons.  Who/what is going to stop them anyway?

The thing is, they never explained what happened to the royal fleet in the Battle of Blackwater.  We know one ship was sacrificed for wildfire dispersal, but they never explicitly mentioned what happened to the rest

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

No one has the ships or the manpower to stop her right now.  That's why Cersei needs an alliance with Euron - she needs his ships and men. 

You don't need a first-class navy just to ferry garrison troops across the bay to an undefended castle. Even if the crown has no fleet at all, which seems highly unlikely, Cersei could just go down to the docks and commandeer a few private vessels for a couple days.

It's a minor point in the grand scheme of things, but once again it's frustrating to see the writers constantly punt on any minor point of even passing difficulty. Why not just replace the five-minute sequence of Dany walking into an empty castle with five minutes of a small Lannister force being defeated or retreating? Little details like this don't seem like they matter, but they help give weight and dimension to a world that's started to feel less and less substantial with each passing season.

[Oscirus]

1 hour ago, Stephanie1216 said:

But more questions popped up for me. The Lannisters have River Run the Freys have the Twins and Edmure. Why would Arya set up the Freys killing without plans for the aftermath?  Kill the Freys, Jamie knows about it, all he has to do is send some soldiers and take the Twins. That just hurts the North. OR did she release Edmure, he was able to round up some Tully soldiers somehow and they took the Twins? 

The writers are leaving too many holes. The North Remembers but let's give the Lannisters the Twins and control of the crossing. 

Not enough episodes left to fool around with. b&b need to answer some question 

Arya is consumed with revenge. She doesn't give an damn about any war or who her actions help or hurt. The Edmure thing I'll just hand wave as her not having knowledge about his predicament. 

[FnkyChkn34]

12 minutes ago, Dev F said:

You don't need a first-class navy just to ferry garrison troops across the bay to an undefended castle. Even if the crown has no fleet at all, which seems highly unlikely, Cersei could just go down to the docks and commandeer a few private vessels for a couple days.

It's a minor point in the grand scheme of things, but once again it's frustrating to see the writers constantly punt on any minor point of even passing difficulty. Why not just replace the five-minute sequence of Dany walking into an empty castle with five minutes of a small Lannister force being defeated or retreating? Little details like this don't seem like they matter, but they help give weight and dimension to a world that's started to feel less and less substantial with each passing season.

I don't mean to be flippant, but again... dragons.  It wouldn't even take 5 minutes to show a defeat or retreat because they'd be marshmallows in 10 seconds.  So it didn't bother me; the story was just fine as is, IMO.

[OhOkayWhat]

About Sam's and Lyanna Mormont's scenes, in my opinion, there is not continuity error or retconning in them:

-Sam's mistakes are the mistakes of a character, and they not the same thing than narrative mistakes. People make mistakes. People listen stuff and forget stuff, even important things. People listen stuff and mistakenly interpret the importance or quantity of stuff too. That is not retconning or continuity error or a writing mistake.

-About Lyanna scene, there is not retconning or continuity error because we actually don't know about a lot of the customs in the North in the show if we think about it.

[Francie]

15 hours ago, Gertrude said:

I'm not disagreeing that the Tyrell women didn't deserve what they got. They chose to play this game knowing the stakes and they forged ahead. Book Marjory it is less clear to me what she wanted vs what her family wanted, but she is a willing enough pawn. Show Marge is a player playing with fire. Olenna killed Joff - that is also a monstrous act with complete disregard for the consequences to anyone not her family. I don't feel sympathy for any of these people. Small moments here and there, but overall not a chance. I may enjoy their characters, but it's not because I admire them. As for Cersei not murdering a teen-aged boy, I'm sure she did. There had to be a teen-aged or two or twenty boy located in the radius of that blast. But let's take that out of the equation. Book Cersei killed/ let die her friend. A teen-aged girl who had the audacity to have a crush on her brother. Honestly, that is the root of my dislike for Cersei and I don't separate book and show cleanly. My book view informs the show characters. Even if we're going by show Cersei only, she's more sympathetic, but not to the point where I can forgive her for being a miserable wretch to everyone around her.

 

FWIW, I responded in the Cersei/book thread.  

1 hour ago, Stephanie1216 said:

OR did she release Edmure .... 

 

My dream -- post credit -- ending to the series:

We hear a voice from the Frey dungeon. "Hello? Anyone out there? Roslyn? Walder Frey? Kingslayer? Uncle Brynden?"

Edmure Tully is the poster child for AWG. 

[Oscirus]

21 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I don't mean to be flippant, but again... dragons.  It wouldn't even take 5 minutes to show a defeat or retreat because they'd be marshmallows in 10 seconds.  So it didn't bother me; the story was just fine as is, IMO.

Not if you hide said men in the castle  and set up an attempted ambush. I doubt the dragons would play a factor at that point.

[Constantinople]

1 minute ago, Oscirus said:

Not if you hide said men in the castle  and set up an attempted ambush. I doubt the dragons would play a factor at that point.

Harrenhal

[OhOkayWhat]

1 hour ago, Stephanie1216 said:

The writers are leaving too many holes. The North Remembers but let's give the Lannisters the Twins and control of the crossing. 

The writers are aware of it. That is maybe the reason they included the Frey issue in the Arya scene with the Lannisters soldiers.

[Dev F]

31 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I don't mean to be flippant, but again... dragons.  It wouldn't even take 5 minutes to show a defeat or retreat because they'd be marshmallows in 10 seconds.

If dragons = instant win, why stop at Dragonstone at all? The same argument would imply that Cersei should immediately flee King's Landing and let Dany have it, too.

Indeed, Dragonstone is arguably better suited to repel a dragon attack than King's Landing, since it's a military fortress designed to guard the front line of a sea invasion, not a comfortable seat of political power situated behind Dragonstone and various other points of first defense.

In any event, since the series is hardly treating Dany's victory over her enemies as a forgone conclusion, I don't see why we'd treat her conquest of Dragonstone as one either. And if the series had wanted us to assume that, they could've come right out and said it -- "Because of X and Y and dragons, we can't stop her from taking Dragonstone." Instead they just talk about how Stannis abandoned it, as if that were all the explanation required.

19 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

-Sam's mistakes are the mistakes of a character, and they not the same thing than narrative mistakes. People make mistakes. People listen stuff and forget stuff, even important things. People listen stuff and mistakenly interpret the importance or quantity of stuff too. That is not retconning or continuity error or a writing mistake.

So the point of Sam traveling to the other side of the continent to consult the secret knowledge of the kingdom's greatest scholars is to remind the big dumbo that he already knows what obsidian is and where to find it? That might mean it's technically no longer a retcon, but it would still be crummy writing.

I mean, it would technically just be a character point if Dany's invasion of Westeros failed because she accidentally fell off Drogon in midflight and died. It would still be a really stupid way to pay off her storyline.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Dev F

[OhOkayWhat]

1 minute ago, Dev F said:

So the point of Sam traveling to the other side of the continent...

This is the first episode. We don't know yet the point or points of Sam traveling.

[Constantinople]

The Lannisters are sending out kid soldiers to try to mop up what's going on around The Twins, which must be an absolute shit show.  They don't have an excess of manpower.  They may have simply decided that sacrificing part of their limited forces to defend Dragonstone wasn't worth it.

Of course, if that's the conclusion they made, they should have shown it on screen

[benteen]

3 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Well, Varys didn't have any lines.  We don't know what he does and doesn't know.

There are still merchants and traders sailing back and forth, right?  Surely someone saw Yara sail there and/or all of them sailing back.  It may not be Qyburn at all, and it was Jaime who came up with Dragonstone.

I just realized we didn't see Qyburn at all in this episode.  I would assume as well as being Master of Whisperers, he's now Hand of the Queen.

Correction, he apparently was there when Euron visited.

Edited July 21, 2017 by benteen

[FnkyChkn34]

8 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

The Lannisters are sending out kid soldiers to try to mop up what's going on around The Twins, which must be an absolute shit show.  They don't have an excess of manpower.  They may have simply decided that sacrificing part of their limited forces to defend Dragonstone wasn't worth it.

Of course, if that's the conclusion they made, they should have shown it on screen

This, or, they didn't have time to get anyone to Dragonstone before they learned that Dany and company were there or about to be there.  Sure, it's not a far sail from King's Landing, but would still take some organization to find the troops, make a gameplan, and then get them there.  The Narrow Sea is narrow, afterall - it doesn't take that long to cross.

I'm still fine with Cersei and Jaime knowing that Dany is coming, speculating that she'd land at Dragonstone, but still not being able to do anything about it.  That happens in the real world all the time, doesn't it?

Edited July 21, 2017 by FnkyChkn34
fixing typo

[FnkyChkn34]

16 minutes ago, Dev F said:

If dragons = instant win, why stop at Dragonstone at all? The same argument would imply that Cersei should immediately flee King's Landing and let Dany have it, too.

Indeed, Dragonstone is arguably better suited to repel a dragon attack than King's Landing, since it's a fortress designed to guard the front line of a sea invasion, not a comfortable seat of political power situated behind Dragonstone and various other points of first defense.

In any event, since the series is hardly treating Dany's victory over her enemies as a forgone conclusion, I don't see why we'd treat her conquest of Dragonstone as one either. And if the series had wanted us to assume that, they could've come right out and said it -- "Because of X and Y and dragons, we can't stop her from taking Dragonstone." Instead they just talk about how Stannis abandoned it, as if that were all the explanation required.

Dragonstone is just a small island, relatively speaking.  I'm not sure Dany knew that it would be deserted, either.  She can't immediately go to King's Landing because she has no strategy, the men on the ships need to rest, etc.  Three dragons can't overtake King's Landing, or the entire country - but a small island with just one castle?  Sure.  That's why it's not preposterous to me.  I don't find it bad writing or a plothole, or whatever else.  

This show is an epic saga based on thousands of pages of written and un-written source material.  If they have to leave out inconsequential conversations between Cersei and Jaime about why Dragonstone is vacant, so be it.  Inane stuff like that doesn't bother me.  We are all free to come up with our own theories and run with them.