S07.E01: Dragonstone

[Gertrude]

So after perusing some of the reviews of the show, it looks like I'm in the minority of not liking the Euron scene. To me he seemed like a blustering clown and not menacing or someone to personally take seriously. His ships are the reason to take him seriously, not Euron himself, IMO. I thought the dialog was not great - it seemed too artificial and more like the bridge it was to get from point A to point B. Again, I seem to be in the minority. *shrug*

And something I'm disappointed in myself for not catching at the time was Lyanna Mormont's sassy speech. I'm kinda over her at this point, but I don't mind her. My first reaction to her speech about not sitting by the fire and knitting was 'well, knitting hats and mittens for everyone would probably be a good strategic move, actually.' Now that it's been pointed out to me, what I wish she had done is make a point that the Mormont women have always fought beside their men. In the show Maege Mormont fought beside Robb and died at the Red Wedding. She could have referenced that instead of disparaging the very industrious and useful art of knitting :p

[WatchrTina]

9 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

Jon himself climbed the Wall with Ygritte, Tormund and other wildlings. If human beings can climb that 700 feet tall or something wall made of stone and ice, what makes you think that magic creatures cannot?

It's been hinted that magic creatures cannot pass the wall -- cannot even get near it comfortably.  I assume that's why TV-zombie Uncle Benjen dropped off Bran and Meera by the weirwood tree instead of carrying them all the way to the gate.  It's more explicit in the book that the Wall is warded against wights (Book-zombie Uncle Benjen comes right out and says he cannot pass through the door under the Night Fort).  I always assumed it was warded against White Walkers as well.

But as someone up-thread already pointed out -- the wall ends at the sea and the dead don't need to breathe.  And I seem to recall a raven from Hardholme in the book bearing the words "Dead things in the water."  What's to stop the army of the dead from just marching around the end of the wall underwater like Davy Jone's crew in Pirates of the Caribbean?

And now on a completely different topic, I'm repeating a speculation I said last year.  The destruction of the Great Sept of Balor was done with wildfire.  During the battle against Stannis the citizens of Kings Landing got their first look at what a wildfire detonation looks like. Some of them must have recognized that wildfire is what brought down the sept and killed all those people (high-born and low alike)  Tyron's role in defending the city during that battle with Stannis was downplayed afterward but as Varys told Tyrion when he lay recovering from his wounds -- (paraphrasing now) "Some of us know the true role you played in saving the city."  I speculate that Cersie is going to have a rumor spread that Tyrion was behind the blast at the sept by publicizing Tyrion's earlier experience blowing things up with wildfire.  Remember how she told Qyburn to burn Tommen's body and put his ashes in the sept with his grandfather and sister and brother?  I'll bet Cersei is going to tell people that Tommen died in the blast to deflect suspicion off of her (lots of people know she really loved Tommen) and onto Tyrion.  The best lie is one that is built on a scaffold of truth.  Tomman DID die that day and his ashes ARE in the sept.  Tyrion WAS the mastermind behind the ship-full-o-wildfire during the Battle of the Blackwater.  Tyrion already had a PR problem (remember the play Arya saw in Braavos depicting him as Joffrey's murderer?)  And now he's coming back to Westeros in the service of a foreign queen backed by an invasion force that includes a barbarian horde. Yeah, Cersie is  TOTALLY going to use Tyrion as a scapegoat for the blast at the sept.  

Edited July 20, 2017 by WatchrTina

[Oscirus]

2 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Well that's the thing. You're probably not going to get that afterwards.

 

Jaime's story ends when he ends Cersei's story. Tywin's golden twins killing each other off because he drilled "a Lannister always lay his debts" is too poetic. 

Jamie's story revolves around three things:

1. Redemption.

2. The Kingsguard book and his sparse entry .

3. His weird love triangle being resolved. Not the one you think,, it's the tyrion-jamie-Cersei one.

I don't think his story necessarily ends when hers does.

4 hours ago, kieyra said:

I mostly just felt bad for Tyrion having to walk up what looked like a mile of stairs. It's like when you're leaving one of the Orlando theme parks and you realize just how far away your car really is. 

Don't, Tyrion was having the time of his life.  He's got his dragons and his books as long as he's not suffering from the dts he should be fine.

4 hours ago, isiscloud said:

So, had those guards with the fire lights inside the door been there since Stannis left? And, please clean the map table! We know what's been done on it! 

The same person who's keept the castle in pristine condition likely cleaned the table too :P

[WindyNights]

3 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Jamie's story revolves around three things:

1. Redemption.

2. The Kingsguard book and his sparse entry .

3. His weird love triangle being resolved. Not the one you think,, it's the tyrion-jamie-Cersei one.

 

1, 2 and 3 are tied together.

 

I think Jaime killing Cersei is the climax of his character. 

Jaime's big conflict is that he's trying to ride two horses. He's trying to be a Lannister (Tywin's son) and he's trying to be a true knight(Lord Commander of the KG) despite them being inherently contradictory.So right now he's bouncing between the two but the conflict between the two resolves when he kills Cersei. And I think he picks being a Lannister that pays his debts over going north to help fight the Others which ends with Robert Strong killing him. And I think Tyrion is the son who throws off Tywin's mantle and gives up revenge to help the North right before this happens. Jaime's not the hero, Tyrion is but GRRM is trying to create an inner conflict within the two so that the decision for revenge or to help save the world is heart-rendering.

Edited July 20, 2017 by WindyNights

[Francie]

8 hours ago, Gertrude said:

The Tyrells were adversaries, but Cersei never even tried to work with them once

But she did. Cersei went to Olenna in season 6, episode 4, I believe, when Olenna was getting ready to hightail it out of town. Cersei told her they needed to set aside their differences and fight to bring the High Sparrow down and get Olenna's grandson out of jail. Olenna told her that she was possibly the worst person should ever met, and rebuffed her completely. 

Cersei actually tried to work with her three times.  In the first time, Olenna got up and walked out. On the second  approach, Olenna reluctantly agreed because Jaime convinced her. But the plan didn't work because Maergery had put her own plan together,  and the High Sparrow had gotten one step ahead of them. 

Watch the scene in the crown room with Kevan and Cersei. Of course he was being condescending to her, telling her, "There's to be an announcement in the throne room. Immediately." 

And my Tywin comparison wasn't to raise her up, but to have those who label her a monster to ask themselves  whether they label Tywin similarly.   

Quote

Yes, Cersei had enemies. It might be acceptable to kill them for survival ...

 So put yourself in Cersei's place. And no cop outs with, "I'd never be in her place."  Since you condemn her  and say she's not clever, put yourself in Cersei's place in the days right before the trial. Trial by combat has just been taken away from you. You want to live. You want your son to live.* How do you defeat your enemies? 

If you come up with a plan that takes out all of her enemies, but leaves fewer civilian casualties, I will bow down. 

*I will wholeheartedly agree that Cersei should have taken measures to be with her son after blowing up the sept. And she has herself to blame for his suicide, and  greatly missed calculated by not putting that into the equation. I'm not 100% pro Cersei on anything. But I will call them like I see them.

Edited July 20, 2017 by Francie

[paigow]

On 7/17/2017 at 9:14 AM, Constantinople said:

I guess Sam is getting some kind of advanced placement given that he's working with the archmaester, but I suspect Sam's education could be sped up a bit more.  I suspect he knows more about Ravens than the average Citadel student.

Are there any other current students? Sam looks like the only dude younger than 50....

[paigow]

8 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Jorah and Sam had their first scene together in this episode

Jorah has greyscale

Sam is reading about dragonglass and Dragonstone

Dragonstone is littered with dragonglass

Shireen had greyscale but was cured or partly cured

Shireen spent almost her entire life on Dragonstone

All those guys that initially attacked Jorah & Tyrion are still alive...

Jorah could go back there...maybe the water is magic...

[Tikichick]

23 minutes ago, paigow said:

Are there any other current students? Sam looks like the only dude younger than 50....

At least one of the fellow chamber pot scrubbers was wearing the same robe as Sam, so I'd assume he's also a novice in training.

[brilliantbreakfast]

On 7/16/2017 at 10:26 PM, Advance35 said:

I am now back to being 50/50 on Sansa being the "Younger Queen" to Cersei.  Her conversation with Jon about Cersei seemed very "cryptic" one way or another I feel like those two will meet again.   Sansa's "I learned a lot from her" was VERY unexpected.   I don't know whether to credit Cersei or Olenna with Sansa's capacity for verbal salt.  "No need to seize the last word Lord Baelish, I'll just assume it was something clever."  DAMN.  LOL.  

And she is completely right about Cersei, Jon doesn't know her and clearly thinks she can be dismissed because only the Night King matters, never mind that Sansa correctly told him that Cersei has found a way to murder everyone that has ever crossed her.

Not to mention that Sansa is now rocking Cercei's old hairdo.

[screamin]

With our previous discussion of the Maegi's prophecy for Cersei, it occurs to me that the showrunners have made a hash of it. No one "younger, more beautiful queen" can be responsible for ALL Cersei's losses of "all she holds dear." Margaery may be considered responsible as the motivation for the death of Joffrey and of Tommen (posthumously), but she had nothing to do with Myrcella, and she's dead now and can't take away Jaime, who she still can be said to be attached to if not love, and her queenhood which she still definitely loves. That will have to be someone else. I always favored Sansa as "younger, more beautiful queen", and she can certainly be considered responsible as the unwitting motivator (for LF, and by telling Olenna about Joffrey's depravity) and murder weapon at Joffrey's death. But both Myrcella and Tommen cannot reasonably be laid at Sansa's feet. Dany's in a perfect position to finish Cersei off, but she had nothing to do with Cersei's earlier losses.

The only one I can see left as a credible "younger, more beautiful queen" candidate is the image of herself in Cersei's own head, that she's in love with more than anything else, which motivates her to unwittingly but ruthlessly sacrifice everything she held dear to keep being that powerful person, in an absolute refusal to accept that it's impossible to stay that person forever. I think this a rather metaphysically and metaphorically lame solution to the prophecy.

Though I guess that two talented actors like Lena Headey and Nicholas Costau could make a scene where Jaime's anguished cry "Don't you understand, even now? It was you all along..." and Cersei's agonized realization becomes powerful enough. If given a really well written scene, ideally ending with Jaime strangling her, they could probably sell it.

[benteen]

9 hours ago, Stephanie1216 said:

Yes because all it took to bring down Stannis (who was considered the best military commander in Westoros) was that idiot Ramsey Bolton and "20 Good Men" 

Ugh.  And let's not forget Yara taking "50 good men" to the Dreadfort which turned out to be six men in the row boat of doom chased off by shirtless Super Ramsay and a couple of mutts.  Not exactly a high point on the show.

8 hours ago, Gertrude said:

So after perusing some of the reviews of the show, it looks like I'm in the minority of not liking the Euron scene. To me he seemed like a blustering clown and not menacing or someone to personally take seriously. His ships are the reason to take him seriously, not Euron himself, IMO. I thought the dialog was not great - it seemed too artificial and more like the bridge it was to get from point A to point B. Again, I seem to be in the minority. *shrug*

And something I'm disappointed in myself for not catching at the time was Lyanna Mormont's sassy speech. I'm kinda over her at this point, but I don't mind her. My first reaction to her speech about not sitting by the fire and knitting was 'well, knitting hats and mittens for everyone would probably be a good strategic move, actually.' Now that it's been pointed out to me, what I wish she had done is make a point that the Mormont women have always fought beside their men. In the show Maege Mormont fought beside Robb and died at the Red Wedding. She could have referenced that instead of disparaging the very industrious and useful art of knitting :p

On the subject of Lyanna Mormont, it annoyed me when she said that they'd train "every man, woman and child on Bear Island" because in the books we know they ALREADY train every woman on the island to fight and they've been fighting with House Stark.

[Advance35]

Regarding Cersei and Olenna.  The reason I never blamed Olenna for stingingly rebuffing Cersei's overture in 6x07 is because she tried that already.  Cersei got Loras incarcerated by her newly empowered High Sparrow, Olenna was prepared to work with her at that point but then Cersei manuevered & succeeded in getting Margaery incarcerated.  At that point Olenna knew their was no saving the Lannister/Tyrell alliance.  In the deleted scenes it showed the S6 goal of House Tyrell was to free Margaery and Loras, flush Margaery's queenship, get back to Highgarden and hope House Lannister and The Faith killed each other.

Olenna made the mistake Jon might.  Cersei is in no way rationale.  House Tyrell, Faith Militant, White Walkers.  If Cersei isn't getting EXACTLY what she wants, everyone can and should, die as far as she is concerned.    If she can't have the throne she would rather human life end as a whole and would gladly see the world overrun with White Walkers.

[Macbeth]

I can't help it.  I love the Jorah and Sam storyline.

First Jorah is the Jack Bauer of GOT.  The only reason that he is allowing himself to be locked up is his Kaleesi told him that his mission was to find a cure.  And someone has to make good use of Sam's Valerian sword - Heartsbane. 

I love any scene where institutional knowledge is made to look like a complete ass.

Things are so bad with the Night's Watch - the only reason you know of the personnel changes is someone arrived at your doorstep to tell you.  You are getting no ravens from the Watchers on the Wall and word is out about the dead rising in the north. (Stannis's bought for Navy - after hauling Jon et all out of Hardhome - hauled their ass away from Westeros and is spreading the story far and wide.)

The Maesters needed to have an intense interview with Sam - The Kevin Bacon of Westeros - and a few things would have happened.

   1.  Instead of Jon relying on the couple of Maesters that survived the war - Maesters send Ravens with an a map of Dragonstone and an arrow.

 2. And after Sam related his meeting with Bran and his intense need to meet the 3-eyed Raven in the land of the dead,   I am sure somewhere in those dusty tomes - there is a picture of said Rven and the phrase "key to taking down the wall." A raven makes its way to Ed to kill Bran.

  3.  As a bonus - Sam has met the only person who was cured of greyscale.

Instead Sam is emptying out chamber pots. 

[paigow]

7 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Jamie's story revolves around three things:

2. The Kingsguard book and his sparse entry .

He needs Tyrion to survive...nobody else would write a positive Yelp review...

[Tikichick]

17 hours ago, Francie said:

I’m still having a problem them shoehorning the 1,000 year dynasty line into Jaime and Cersei’s conversation.  It makes no sense.

Imagine a conversation like this:

Beth: Where are you going on vacation?

Veronica: Atlantis.

Beth: Atlantis doesn’t exist. And even if it did, it’s buried under the sea. You can’t go there.

Veronica: Oh, well, Florida then.

And the next important, vital in fact, question is left out:

Beth:  Why the hell did you say Atlantis then?

And the inevitable follow up questions – Were you shitting me? Were you serious? But, nope, Jaime doesn't get to press on as to why Cersei feels the need to rule. Why they don't cut their losses and run, and actually confront whether Cersei is merely power hungry or operating from a place of the best defense is a good offense.   Instead, it's just a non sequitor to where Daenerys will attack first. 

But this show wanted Cersei to echo her father and talk about a 1,000 year dynasty.  We got it, show. The show will end with Bran, in 1,000 years, in a tree telling us how it all ended. Now can we have realistic, meaningful dialogue back, please? Please and thank you.

 

 

I think they phoned in the entire show, from start to finish. 

After thinking about it some more I think the 1,000 year dynasty is a sticking point with Cersei because the only value her father ever acknowledged in her was as his only child able to keep his dream of the 1,000 year dynasty alive.  Part of the rage that's fueling her is that Tywin only saw her as a breeding vessel and/or the means to strategic alliances through marriage.  As Queen of the Seven Kingdoms she had provided 3 heirs to the throne, yet with Robert dead at long last Tywin was looking to use Cersei to doubly bind them to the riches of Highgarden, via marriage to another obviously unsuitable man no less.  

[Tikichick]

12 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

I think it is a matter of Cersei being the only family Jamie has left - because apparently  every single other Lannister in the universe has been killed. Tywin always repeated that family is everything, that what matters is the family, the Lannister name, their legacy. Cersei is his sister, twin, lover, everthing, all he has in the world, and she is part of his life as he has always known it. Maybe Jamie thinks Cersei is just going through a phase because he saw how she was after Joffrey and Myrcella died.

Jamie  doesn't have many options either; he killed Aerys, he is the kingslayer, he is not trusthworth. Dany knows her father was a nutcase, but that doesn't mean she would forgive Jamie for killing him; Dorne, and the North hates the Lannisters, Arya just killed the Freys, and he encarcerated Edmure Tully and killed the Blackfish, so the Riverlands are not real friends either.  Jamie is an accomplished swordman and a general/leader in battlefield, but he is 40, doesn't have two hands (tsk tsk Euron), his House is broken. How many options do you think he has? The future is not that brilliant for Jamie right now and I can see the war to come as giving him a purpose in life, assuming he ever takes part in the fight against the WW.

And I'm probaly alone on this, but IMO Jamie is the valonqar and the one who will kill Cersei. 

I don't chose who you love, you just love people and then decide what to do with it. Jamie didn't love Brienne, not in a romantic sense, will never will.  Sure, in Jamie Lannister's world Brienne made his top 10 favorite people, but I think what she sees in Brienne is the kinda of man he could have been if his life had been differently or if he had been a different man. Jamie's love has always belonged to Cersei.

I can see room for Danerys giving Jamie a pass actually.  Jamie is very famously the Kingslayer.  It's also unquestionably understood that Aerys was indeed mad, Danerys accepts this herself.  If Jamie is the valonquar of the prophecy who kills Cersei -- the queen who essentially did the very same thing Jamie killed Aerys to prevent, Danerys may see room to hear him out.  Jamie may have another voice speak up for him to bolster his genuine fealty to Danerys, a voice Danerys is already very willingly taking counsel from.  Judging by her naming him as hand, I'd say Tyrion is the top voice Danerys is listening to.   Jamie has good reason to believe Tyrion might at least be willing to help him out if he's desperate. 

I do think Jamie is actually in love with Brienne in a romantic sense.  Quite honestly I think his love of Cersei has been more of a deep familial bond, enhanced as twins with a very detached father and dead mother -- with lust added into the mix.  I think in Brienne he sees a woman who would have encouraged him to become worthy of a very heroic entry in the book of the Kingsguard, a woman who actually thinks well of him as a man when she looks at him.  He knows for Cersei there is no regard there, only her needs.

[Chris24601]

35 minutes ago, benteen said:

On the subject of Lyanna Mormont, it annoyed me when she said that they'd train "every man, woman and child on Bear Island" because in the books we know they ALREADY train every woman on the island to fight and they've been fighting with House Stark.

Typical politician... makes a big deal out of the fact that they'll do something they were always gonna do anyway.

[GrailKing]

8 hours ago, Gertrude said:

So after perusing some of the reviews of the show, it looks like I'm in the minority of not liking the Euron scene. To me he seemed like a blustering clown and not menacing or someone to personally take seriously. His ships are the reason to take him seriously, not Euron himself, IMO. I thought the dialog was not great - it seemed too artificial and more like the bridge it was to get from point A to point B. Again, I seem to be in the minority. *shrug*

And something I'm disappointed in myself for not catching at the time was Lyanna Mormont's sassy speech. I'm kinda over her at this point, but I don't mind her. My first reaction to her speech about not sitting by the fire and knitting was 'well, knitting hats and mittens for everyone would probably be a good strategic move, actually.' Now that it's been pointed out to me, what I wish she had done is make a point that the Mormont women have always fought beside their men. In the show Maege Mormont fought beside Robb and died at the Red Wedding. She could have referenced that instead of disparaging the very industrious and useful art of knitting :p

Minority maybe; alone no.

I said earlier if he put a dead body on his Bow? ( front of ship) and they showed that then you would get a hint he's at least trying to smoke Cersei, as a book reader I know he's a dangerous person, average Joe and Sandy doesn't.

I liked that whole Winterfell scene not sure if anyone thinks what I do, but Sansa is totally smoke screening LF keeping Jon out of the loop to protect his ass.

And yes LM is quickly becoming a one note character.

[GrailKing]

10 hours ago, hypnotoad said:

Me too. I just wish he'd do it already.I much prefer Jaimie far away from Cersei.

Yeah, but I want Sansa to do it or if the time photo shoot are clues ( please no, unless Beric is close by ) Arya using Sansa's face.

North remembers Bitch!!, Winter has come!

down boy down...... : )

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

He needs Tyrion to survive...nobody else would write a positive Yelp review...

Brienne would, she heard his side .

[Tikichick]

27 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Minority maybe; alone no.

I said earlier if he put a dead body on his Bow? ( front of ship) and they showed that then you would get a hint he's at least trying to smoke Cersei, as a book reader I know he's a dangerous person, average Joe and Sandy doesn't.

I liked that whole Winterfell scene not sure if anyone thinks what I do, but Sansa is totally smoke screening LF keeping Jon out of the loop to protect his ass.

And yes LM is quickly becoming a one note character.

Gave the episode another watch last night.  It confirmed my original impression that Sansa is indeed aware of what LF wants, and that's exactly what she's giving him in a very genuine way no less.  She's genuinely concerned about Jon understanding the threat Cersei poses.  She's also clearly very grateful to be reunited with her brother.

So far I'm not bothered by LM's one note.  For me it's a time conscious way to acknowledge a longstanding detail of books and show -- House Mormont is doggedly loyal in all things, against all odds.  We're not only talking LM here.  Remember Jon carries a marker of the Mormont loyalty on his hip and Danerys awaits the return of yet another Mormont she fully accepts as being loyal, despite his earlier missteps.  

ETA -- Took a good long look at Arya and the soldiers again.  It was clear to me that Arya carefully mulled the concept of guest right very deliberately before she would eat a bite of that rabbit.  I don't mean from the perspective of the soldiers then being bound not to do her harm, rather the fact she accepted also bound her.  She clearly decided she's not killing these Lannister soldiers.

Edited July 20, 2017 by Tikichick
Forgotten detail

[FemmyV]

1 hour ago, Francie said:

So put yourself in Cersei's place. And no cop outs with, "I'd never be in her place."  Since you condemn her  and say she's not clever, put yourself in Cersei's place in the days right before the trial. Trial by combat has just been taken away from you. You want to live. You want your son to live.* How do you defeat your enemies? 

If you come up with a plan that takes out all of her enemies, but leaves fewer civilian casualties, I will bow down. 

It's hard for people to put themselves in Cersei's place because she is, flat out, one of the most immoral characters in all six seasons we've seen. To get into her shoes, we'd first have to imagine ourselves doing all the horrible things she did to get where she was at the beginning of 6.10

And even if we can, there's still the fact that Cersei committed the act that was initially dreamed up by the chat known as, "the Mad King." The act her own brother committed regicide to prevent.

The only good thing she did was to take out the Sparrows. But she enabled them, in the first place. 

I'm not entirely unsympathetic: she's lost a lot, and should never have married Robert in the first place. She should have gone back to Casterly Rock and let him drink himself to death, years back.

[GrailKing]

2 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Gave the episode another watch last night.  It confirmed my original impression that Sansa is indeed aware of what LF wants, and that's exactly what she's giving him in a very genuine way no less.  She's genuinely concerned about Jon understanding the threat Cersei poses.  She's also clearly very grateful to be reunited with her brother.

So far I'm not bothered by LM's one note.  For me it's a time conscious way to acknowledge a longstanding detail of books and show -- House Mormont is doggedly loyal in all things, against all odds.  We're not only talking LM here.  Remember Jon carries a marker of the Mormont loyalty on his hip and Danerys awaits the return of yet another Mormont she fully accepts as being loyal, despite his earlier missteps.  

I'm chucking this up to the writers,  they got it across that LM is a badass last year, this time they could have stressed it with : Lord Glover; Mormont women have trained and fought along side our men for as long as we have supported the Starks... and will continue to do so.  

Change it up right now she's making fools of the other lords.

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, GrailKing said:

I'm chucking this up to the writers,  they got it across that LM is a badass last year, this time they could have stressed it with : Lord Glover; Mormont women have trained and fought along side our men for as long as we have supported the Starks... and will continue to do so.  

Change it up right now she's making fools of the other lords.

I absolutely agree they missed the mark with that choice in this episode.  I'm not however ready to dispatch with the character based on that rather small detail.  I had to make my peace long ago with the idea that the kind of satisfaction I crave in this story will never be possible to tell onscreen.  I live in hope that I get to finish the journey I started on the page many, many years ago with the satisfaction of fully fleshed out details in pages, and pages -- and pages of prose.  That's where I'm counting on satisfaction for my very first wish in the first few pages -- what's going to be the deal with these wolf pups?  I'm very hopeful more survive on page than screen.

[GrailKing]

4 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I absolutely agree they missed the mark with that choice in this episode.  I'm not however ready to dispatch with the character based on that rather small detail.  I had to make my peace long ago with the idea that the kind of satisfaction I crave in this story will never be possible to tell onscreen.  I live in hope that I get to finish the journey I started on the page many, many years ago with the satisfaction of fully fleshed out details in pages, and pages -- and pages of prose.  That's where I'm counting on satisfaction for my very first wish in the first few pages -- what's going to be the deal with these wolf pups?  I'm very hopeful more survive on page than screen.

Me Too ! I'm close to GRRM age.    : (

My kids laugh that I'm such a nerd.

[Tikichick]

Just now, GrailKing said:

Me Too ! I'm close to GRRM age.    : (

My kids laugh that I'm such a nerd.

My daughters were very young when I started reading these books -- which was a fluke I still can't understand since fantasy is definitely not my genre. They're college age now and my oldest shares my frustration the books are not finished yet.

Eh, keep the hope burning.  I see no reason Martin can't finish this yeoman's task despite his age and no reason you won't get the pleasure of reading it the way it was truly intended to finish out the tale.

[Paradigm14]

On 7/18/2017 at 9:21 AM, taanja said:

I had no problem with that scene. They asked her straight up why she's going to King's Landing -- Arya hesitates then blurts out the truth. But her reply is just so preposterous-- they don't take her seriously and react by laughing nervously.

I'm certain this was her first taste of alcohol. She had no intention of telling, but alcohol brought truth out!

[Dev F]

10 hours ago, Stephanie1216 said:

Davos knows there is Dragonglass at Dragonstone Sam needs to find out HOW to make more of it.

Eh, that's not really what the scene implies. Sam doesn't yet know anything except that there's a bunch of dragonglass on Dragonstone, and he's already like, Omigod, this is super important! I have to tell Jon!

Besides, it's not like dragonglass is some mystical substance that Sam must consult the most secret ancient tomes to learn how to manipulate. The show has already established that it's just obsidian, an ordinary igneous rock. It's in the same conversation in which Stannis tells Sam that they have dragonglass at Dragonstone, and basically confirms that even in the universe of the show, it's some mundane thing that no one cares about: "I know what it is. We have it in Dragonstone. Why would obsidian kill a walker?"

But now that the writers need some payoff to Sam's transfer to the Citadel, they're suddenly treating dragonglass like some secret magical MacGuffin. Wow, it says here's there's a plentiful supply of volcanic glass on a volcanic island! Whoah, whoda thunk?

It's frustrating to see the show resort to this kind of retconning, because it's exactly the opposite of the sort of writing problems the show had in its earlier, more book-based seasons. Back then, the tendency was for the writers to lock themselves into certain dramatic decisions at one point that would get them into trouble down the line. For instance, the timing of Jaime's escape in season 2 caused a ripple effect that forced the writers to rework the motivations of key Robb/Talisa and Robb/Catelyn moments later in the season. They didn't quite work, but their failure was understandable, and I defended the writers for them -- after all, once certain choices were locked in, they had no choice but to go with them.

But, no, it turns out they do have a choice, and they've started choosing to go with an even worse option: to just ignore what they've already established, like dragonglass being ordinary obsidian, as soon as it becomes inconvenient. And not even under tremendous pressure when plot threads are all jammed up at the end of a season (another situation I've defended the writers for fumbling); this is the season premiere, after they've gone through most of the book material and are clearly happy to just make stuff up out of whole cloth. And their choice right off the bat is to say, Screw it, let's just fudge away what we said before? Not a promising sign.

[Tikichick]

4 hours ago, Francie said:

But she did. Cersei went to Olenna in season 6, episode 4, I believe, when Olenna was getting ready to hightail it out of town. Cersei told her they needed to set aside their differences and fight to bring the High Sparrow down and get Olenna's grandson out of jail. Olenna told her that she was possibly the worst person should ever met, and rebuffed her completely. 

Cersei actually tried to work with her three times.  In the first time, Olenna got up and walked out. On the second  approach, Olenna reluctantly agreed because Jaime convinced her. But the plan didn't work because Maergery had put her own plan together,  and the High Sparrow had gotten one step ahead of them. 

Watch the scene in the crown room with Kevan and Cersei. Of course he was being condescending to her, telling her, "There's to be an announcement in the throne room. Immediately." 

And my Tywin comparison wasn't to raise her up, but to have those who label her a monster to ask themselves  whether they label Tywin similarly.   

 So put yourself in Cersei's place. And no cop outs with, "I'd never be in her place."  Since you condemn her  and say she's not clever, put yourself in Cersei's place in the days right before the trial. Trial by combat has just been taken away from you. You want to live. You want your son to live.* How do you defeat your enemies? 

If you come up with a plan that takes out all of her enemies, but leaves fewer civilian casualties, I will bow down. 

*I will wholeheartedly agree that Cersei should have taken measures to be with her son after blowing up the sept. And she has herself to blame for his suicide, and  greatly missed calculated by not putting that into the equation. I'm not 100% pro Cersei on anything. But I will call them like I see them.

Olenna knew exactly who had engineered Loras' apprehension by the Faith Militant in the first place.  Why on earth would she have trusted Cersei and think that was the key to his release?

Remember Olenna already had to step in and save her granddaughter from being trapped in a marriage to the monstrous Joffrey, son of Cersei.  She knew Cersei intended to leave no real room for Margaery to serve as queen, despite her acceptance of Margaery's marriage to Joffrey.  Remember Margaery had to do a lot of fast maneuvers to even have access to Tommen -- Cersei absolutely did not want that marriage to take place.

[Francie]

1 hour ago, Tikichick said:

Olenna knew exactly who had engineered Loras' apprehension by the Faith Militant in the first place.  Why on earth would she have trusted Cersei and think that was the key to his release?

My prior post was to correct an factual misstatement – an accusation that Cersei had never even approached Olenna about joining forces. Cersei did, three times.

Whether Olenna should trust Cersei or not is a separate question.  Olenna chose to run. That was her prerogative.

Quote

Remember Olenna already had to step in and save her granddaughter from being trapped in a marriage to the monstrous Joffrey, son of Cersei. 

Maergery could have avoided being “trapped in a marriage” to Joffrey by not requesting it as a prize for the Tyrells turning sides in the  Battle of the Blackwater. Maergery wanted to be “the” Queen, and she was getting her wish.

Olenna didn’t like the look of Joffrey (no one should like Joffrey), and instead of finding some reason to get out of the marriage, she chose to murder him, pin it on Sansa, and have her granddaughter manipulate Joffrey’s younger brother.

The Tyrells were up to their ears in machinations, treachery, and homicide.  And they got outplayed.

Edited July 20, 2017 by Francie

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, Francie said:

My prior post was to correct an factual misstatement – an accusation that Cersei had never even approached Olenna about joining forces. Cersei did, three times.

When Olenna should trust Cersei or not is a separate question.  Olenna chose to run. That was her prerogative.

 

 

Maergery could have avoided being “trapped in a marriage” to Joffrey by not requesting it as a prize for the Tyrells turning sides in the  Battle of the Blackwater. Maergery wanted to be “the” Queen, and she was getting her wish.

Olenna didn’t like the look of Joffrey (no one should like Joffrey), and instead of finding some reason to get out of the marriage, she chose to murder him, pin it on Sansa, and have her granddaughter manipulate Joffrey’s younger brother.

The Tyrells were up to their ears in machinations, treachery, and homicide.  And they got outplayed.

Margaery's goal was to be the queen.  An aspiration Cersei can understand with keener insight than most.  When she made the bid to move her attempt to Joffrey after Renly's death she did not realize what a depraved shit he was.  Once she did she was working all options to either insure she had control of him or dispatched him.   The Tyrells were playing the same beats in the same tune as the Lannisters.

Clearly the Tyrells got trounced.  I still believe Olenna was absolutely correct not to trust Cersei.  And I'm not so certain Olenna intended the finger of blame to be pointed at Sansa for Joffrey's murder either -- although it suited LF's agenda quite nicely.

[Oscirus]

3 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Brienne would, she heard his side .

Brienne won't ever have the access to do such a thing.

11 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

  And I'm not so certain Olenna intended the finger of blame to be pointed at Sansa for Joffrey's murder either -- although it suited LF's agenda quite nicely.

Sansa and Tyrion both fit the role of scapegoat quite nicely. She definitely intended for those two to take the fall.

[GrailKing]

2 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Brienne won't ever have the access to do such a thing.

13 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Proof please, we can't tell the future.

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Brienne won't ever have the access to do such a thing.

Sansa and Tyrion both fit the role of scapegoat quite nicely. She definitely intended for those two to take the fall.

I have no illusions that she had any compunctions about Tyrion.  I'm not certain about Sansa.

[Oscirus]

14 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Proof please, we can't tell the future.

Is Brienne the type of character that would get enough power to edit that book?

Edited July 20, 2017 by Oscirus

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, Oscirus said:

Is Brienne the typ of character that would get enough power to edit that book?

Is it completely impossible she winds up serving in the King's Guard of whoever wins the throne?

[Oscirus]

6 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I have no illusions that she had any compunctions about Tyrion.  I'm not certain about Sansa.

Hard to say either way. Was it her plan or LF's in the books?

Ironic thing is by getting rid of those two, it pretty much caused Cersei to turn all of her negative energies onto Margaery.

[GrailKing]

2 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Is Brienne the typ of character that would get enough power to edit that book?

Yes, yes she is.

All her life she wanted to serve and be a KG, she may still have that chance.

[Oscirus]

1 minute ago, Tikichick said:

Is it completely impossible she winds up serving in the King's Guard of whoever wins the throne?

Perhaps if Sansa somehow becomes queen, other then that, no. She's not going anywhere near Kings landing.

[GrailKing]

4 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Is it completely impossible she winds up serving in the King's Guard of whoever wins the throne?

We think a like : )

[FnkyChkn34]

6 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Perhaps if Sansa somehow becomes queen, other then that, no. She's not going anywhere near Kings landing.

You don't think she's proving herself to Jon as well?  What if he becomes King?

[Oscirus]

2 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

You don't think she's proving herself to Jon as well?  What if he becomes King?

Until Sansa dies, she's attached to Sansa by that oath, so it wouldn't matter. Unless you think Sansa dies.

Edited July 20, 2017 by Oscirus

[FnkyChkn34]

4 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Unless Sansa dies, she's attached to Sansa by that oath, so it wouldn't matter.

Can't Sansa release her from that oath?  If she's poised to move on to bigger and better things...

[GrailKing]

4 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Until Sansa dies, she's attached to Sansa by that oath, so it wouldn't matter. Unless you think Sansa dies.

There is that possibility of Sansa dying, but it's the same for all the remaining Starks.

Hopefully the 4 remaining live and lead as happy a life that they can from the tragic life they had.  

2 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Can't Sansa release her from that oath?  If she's poised to move on to bigger and better things...

Yes she can, Brienne is a Lady in her own right and heir to Tarth.

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, Oscirus said:

Unless Sansa dies, she's attached to Sansa by that oath, so it wouldn't matter.

Sansa does famously believe nobody can protect anybody, so . . .

What if events take Sansa to KL, coming upon the aftermath of Jamie assuming the role of valonqar and dying as a result, perhaps after a death scene reunion with Brienne?  Brienne would surely be with her and no doubt have opportunity to access the book and finish Jamie's entry.  Given the turbulent times, who's to say Brienne wouldn't have access or have her rights to do such a thing challenged?

[Oscirus]

6 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Can't Sansa release her from that oath?  If she's poised to move on to bigger and better things...

Brienne's not breaking her word to Cat for a promotion so the subject would never come up.

3 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

What if events take Sansa to KL, coming upon the aftermath of Jamie assuming the role of valonqar and dying as a result, perhaps after a death scene reunion with Brienne?  Brienne would surely be with her and no doubt have opportunity to access the book and finish Jamie's entry.  Given the turbulent times, who's to say Brienne wouldn't have access or have her rights to do such a thing challenged?

I'll amend my previous statement. It's possible that she could get access to that book, but not very likely.

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, Oscirus said:

Brienne's not breaking her word to Cat for a promotion so the subject would never come up.

I'll amend my previous statement. It's possible that she could get access to that book, but not very likely.

I think you're being a tad rigid, Sansa at anytime can release Brienne from her vows especially if Arya returns to Winterfell.

We are talking possible future events, the ink hasn't been put on paper yet; let alone dried.

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Brienne's not breaking her word to Cat for a promotion so the subject would never come up.

I'll amend my previous statement. It's possible that she could get access to that book, but not very likely.

Brienne may as well be a Mormont, because I absolutely agree she will not break that vow.  Matter of fact, if Arya shows up for a family reunion Brienne will be vigilant to protect her as well, like it or not.

I don't think Martin's plan includes Brienne writing that entry, however I am rather confident the show may put that bow on that story.

[Tikichick]

Am I the only one that was bothered by the realization that Winterfell now has to rely on Maester who served the Boltons and seems none too bright?  Really bugs me thinking back to the days of Maester Luwin, and even Jon's time at the wall with Maester Aemon.  Make haste, Maester Samwell!

Particularly scary if I remember Maester Qyburn is still involved 1,000 miles away.

[KarenTargaryen]

As lord of Greywater Watch, would/should Howland Reed (a northern lord) be at the gathering in Winterfell with the rest of the northern lords?