S03.E02: Double Trouble

[Otter]

Hi all! First post here.  I don't pretend to understand transgenderism, and I'm ignorant in many ways so I hope this post doesn't come across as harsh.  I don't mean to be.  :)  

Anyone else concerned with Jeanette's mental health?  While her behavior is appropriate and normal for a mom, her depression is scary, unless it's an act for attention.  I only say that because in the enhanced episode, she said (paraphrasing AND trying to remember the quote so as not to smear her) "I need all the attention -- I mean JAZZ needs attention".  It's almost like she has Munchausen's.  One other thing in that episode -- Jazz was more excited to get bottom surgery so she could wear leggings.  And she'd wear them everyday.  She was downright giddy at the thought.  I'm with dad -- she's not mature enough to make such a huge decision.  I don't think she's mature enough to have a reality show.  She's fragile.  I had no idea how invasive the surgery is and how hard the recovery is.    I don't think Jazz or Jeanette understands it either.  :(

I like Jazz, she's a typical teen, sweet one moment then mean the next.  It's normal without the hormones being used.  I worry for her though being so young and the international exposure.  I don't know any teen who could handle that, no matter what's on the teen's plate.  

[ItsHelloPattiagain]

9 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I was a teen girl a little more than a decade ago, and it wasn't anything I was insecure about but I did talk about it amongst my friends (not obsessively or anything). 

I have grown daughters 28 and 32, plus they had a ton of teenage friends  that all started traipsing through my house and riding in my car from age 7 to mid 20s. Not once did they mention vaginas except as pertaining to tampons. And all these girls were athletes so there was a lot of talk about body parts - boobs yes and pubic hair but never vaginas. It was just very staged (at least to me) to hear Jazz and the other transgender girl on the swings talking about "yaaah, vaginas".  

[Bastet]

Well, it makes sense to me that two transgender girls would be more likely to speak with each other about vaginas than any two cisgender girls, who can take having one for granted and thus don't give it anywhere near as much thought.

Most teenage girls don't spend much time talking about kidneys, either, but if two who need kidney transplants were friends, the chances of kidneys being a part of their conversations increase dramatically.

Edited July 6, 2017 by Bastet

[Scarlett45]

7 minutes ago, Bastet said:

Well, it makes sense to me that two transgender girls would be more likely to speak with each other about vaginas than any two cisgender girls, who can take having one for granted and thus don't give it anywhere near as much thought.

Most teenage girls don't spend much time talking about kidneys, either, but if two who need kidney transplants were friends, the chances of kidneys being a part of their conversations increase dramatically.

That's what I was getting at as well. 

 

22 minutes ago, ItsHelloPattiagain said:

I have grown daughters 28 and 32, plus they had a ton of teenage friends  that all started traipsing through my house and riding in my car from age 7 to mid 20s. Not once did they mention vaginas except as pertaining to tampons. And all these girls were athletes so there was a lot of talk about body parts - boobs yes and pubic hair but never vaginas. It was just very staged (at least to me) to hear Jazz and the other transgender girl on the swings talking about "yaaah, vaginas".  

I'm 31, so smack dab in the middle of your girls. ? Yes it was staged I agree with you in that. 

 

Side note- I think bottom surgery is so important to Jazz because in her head after it's over she won't be an "other" any more, she will always be trans, but unless you did a cheek swab no one would ever know.(never mind she's a public figure) Bye bye being "different", hello being "accepted" & "normal". In a heteronormative framework having a vulva/vagina means she can have a sexual relationship with a man, she has VALUE now. I know that Jazz has to have absorbed many of the messages regarding how women's sexuality and bodies are for the benefit of men (even if intellectually she knows it's not true). 

[possibilities]

Iliza Schlesinger did a half hour show on Freeform (formerly "ABC Family"), aimed at teens, called "Your Vagina Is Normal".

When I was a teen, my friends did not talk about this stuff, but maybe it would have been better if we had. My mother actually gave me a speculum and told me to take a look because "it's your body, you should get to know it"-- and "Our Bodies, Ourselves" was always around for reference purposes (this was before the internet).

I think norms vary from place to place, not only time to time and community to community, but of course anything on a TLC show is going to be somewhat staged.

I think they probably use locations that are not local for security purposes. Also, who knows whether the local places wanted to allow them to film there? There could be all kinds of logistical reasons for that sort of thing.

I was more bothered by the filming Jazz crying and saying she hates herself. It was probably good for the kid she was so rude to to see that, but it can't have been good for Jazz, staged or not.

[MegD]

6 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Now see I had no idea what a "chigger" was! Learn something new daily. 

They are evil little mites that we thought burrow into the skin (WebMD says no). They leave itchy rashes behind. We were always taught that the nail polish or white glue would suffocate them and make it easier to squeeze out their heads (probably the bacteria left behind that we had scratched into existence). WebMD says apply calamine lotion and take anti-histamines. I'm going to call that just ridiculous poppycock!

[Christina87]

Hi! First post here, as I don't really watch this show a lot. I watched the first few episodes of the first season, and not much since then. I'm sure this has been discussed, but is anyone else alarmed at the pressure they're putting on Jazz to not just date, but "experience love?"

everyone develops differently, and some girls are pregnant at fifteen while others, like me, had no more interest in dating than the man on the moon. I was a very young fifteen; I still felt like a kid, and wasn't really crazy about going through puberty. I looked at the cute little ten-year-olds I knew and felt awkward compared to them. I remember dreaming about a boy "asking me out," but what that would include was a mystery to me! Yeah, there was the occasional kiss, usually at a dance or camp (the latter seemed like such a fun place for a fling!). Overall though, at fifteen I was interested in dance and basketball, and giggling with other girls over hot celebrities. There were no real boys I was interested in, except one who was a senior and waaaay out of my league! Many, many of my friends were exactly the same. I had a boyfriend towards the end of high school, as did several of my friends, but nobody pressured us into them. 

Even those who dated at fifteen often had the most immature relationships imaginable! One friend broke up with her boyfriend freshman year because he French kissed her, and she didn't like it. There were also several, "oh, I saw him talking to this girl between classes, so I broke up with him!" relationships. Only ONE couple started dating at fifteen and made it to marriage. My mom was thrilled that I didn't have a boyfriend, and expressed repeatedly that I had decades to find somebody before I'd even be "old."

i wish their focus was more, "if you want to date, you're not a freak and anybody would be lucky to have you," or "you will find love someday; no need to rush." These exact same things could be said to the cis girl with acne who thinks she's the world's biggest loser!

ETA: this show literally has the worst editing. Jazz can't say a sentence that doesn't sound totally spliced in 5 places!

Edited July 7, 2017 by Christina87

[Bastet]

I've had issues with the dating thing from jump, too.  Because, to the extent Jazz is interested in but feels hesitant about dating strictly by virtue of being a transgender girl, it's good to encourage her to explore opportunities she can reasonably deem to be safe (and this is SUCH an issue beyond that for cisgender girls).  By her comments, she hasn't fully determined whether she's gay, straight, bisexual, or pansexual, and there's nothing wrong with that, obviously, and dating is a good way of honing in on that. 

But what about any hesitance that is just an inherent part of her personality, that would exist just the same if she was cisgender?  It must be hard to identify the various reasons and what role they all play, so I'm sympathetic to the parents trying to navigate when to encourage and when to step back.  But not everyone has the same interest in dating, or starts feeling it at the same age, whatever their gender identity or sexual orientation.  So no one, especially no girl (given all the sexist shit emphasizing them as/reducing them to romantic partners), should be pushed to date if they are simply not ready to.

It's one of the many thorny issues illuminated by this show, and I'd like to see a little more nuance and thoughtfulness from the adults involved.

[Scarlett45]

8 hours ago, Bastet said:

I've had issues with the dating thing from jump, too.  Because, to the extent Jazz is interested in but feels hesitant about dating strictly by virtue of being a transgender girl, it's good to encourage her to explore opportunities she can reasonably deem to be safe (and this is SUCH an issue beyond that for cisgender girls).  By her comments, she hasn't fully determined whether she's gay, straight, bisexual, or pansexual, and there's nothing wrong with that, obviously, and dating is a good way of honing in on that. 

But what about any hesitance that is just an inherent part of her personality, that would exist just the same if she was cisgender?  It must be hard to identify the various reasons and what role they all play, so I'm sympathetic to the parents trying to navigate when to encourage and when to step back.  But not everyone has the same interest in dating, or starts feeling it at the same age, whatever their gender identity or sexual orientation.  So no one, especially no girl (given all the sexist shit emphasizing them as/reducing them to romantic partners), should be pushed to date if they are simply not ready to.

It's one of the many thorny issues illuminated by this show, and I'd like to see a little more nuance and thoughtfulness from the adults involved.

What a very insightful post!

I am not surprised at the lack of thoughtlessness from the adults involved through. Romantic relationships and heteronormative lifestyles are a HUGE part of our culture and how most adults get their emotional/social/sexual and physical needs met. I'm a 31 year old heterosexual cis-gender woman and the harrasment I get to be in a romantic relationship from STRAIGHT WOMEN is ridiculous. (Men are a little more accepting of singleness) There is very much an idea that if a woman doesn't want to be with a man there is something wrong with her OR she is gay and then okay let's find her a woman ?. I'm 31 and it drives me nuts sometimes so I can only imagine how it is for a teenage girl. 

 

On the the flip side if the parents NEVER talked about dating etc Jazz could interpret that as she isn't supposed to want to date, she isn't allowed to have a romantic relationship because she is trans and it's stupid to think about- again it's a thorny subject. 

But because of our culture I think that the adults are trying to avoid the second scenario and never even thought of the first. 

[Christina87]

I wonder if maybe Jeannette always had a boyfriend at that age, and can't imagine anyone wanting to do things differently. It seems to me like jazz needs to feel confident in social situations before she starts going on one-on-one dates, which is totally normal for a lot of fifteen-year-olds. I think they should be encouraging her to be open to the idea of dating, to reinforce that there is nothing wrong with her, but not push her to actually do so. To me, there is a huge difference between a mom pushing for her daughter to have a boyfriend, and a mom encouraging her daughter to talk to a crush that she expresses interest in, etc. 

I also worry that they are setting unrealistic expectations by not just expecting her to date, by to "experience love." Very few people will experience love at fifteen, and it will be frustrating when her mother's expecting her date to turn into this Casanova with Romeo-level devotion, but he never calls her again because she's an inch taller than him. Not many fifteen-year-old boys are looking to find "the one"; most are just dipping their toes into that universe by casually dating around. I wish Jeanette would focus more on wanting her to "experience love" someday, but she seems impatient for it to happen NOW. 

[ClareWalks]

I agree with everyone who finds it baffling that Jeanette is encouraging Jazz to date and "experience love." Considering Jazz struggles with depression, I don't think the drama of a teenage "OMG we R in LUV" relationship is a good idea. At. All.

[Christina87]

Exactly! I really wanted to pull my hair out when Jeanette passionately said something like, "jazz just sits around! She's not going to find any boys that way! She needs to put herself out there!" Calm down, woman! Jazz isn't 40 years old, single, and wanting children. The way her mom was talking, you'd think she wanted Jazz frequenting singles bars and joining eHarmony! By virtue of being fifteen, she is "putting herself out there" by going to school...and being on tv, for god's sake! She isn't cloistered in her room like a hermit or anything. Let her live her own life!

[jennylauren123]

I sure wasn't ready to date at that age. I did much better years later, at about 18. Some of us are slow to develop, and I was one of the so-called late bloomers. Jazz is probably like that, too, and for her  the whole issue is obviously much more complicated. I would back off and let her figure out boys, or girls, in her own time. She's just a kid!

[Bastet]

6 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

There is very much an idea that if a woman doesn't want to be with a man there is something wrong with her OR she is gay and then okay let's find her a woman ?. I'm 31 and it drives me nuts sometimes so I can only imagine how it is for a teenage girl. 

I've been dealing with that for 10+ years longer than you have, so, believe me, I feel you!  I'm grateful that my parents were never among the people pushing me to go man hunting (Mom is still not through being bummed that she's not getting any grandkids - well, beyond those with fur and four legs - but she's never tried to push me into a life I didn't want), so I wish home was also a safe refuge for Jazz on that front, like it is for her on so many others.  Like I said, I'm sympathetic to the difficulty in untangling and identifying the various factors behind her dating issues in order to know which ones to embrace and which ones to encourage her to overcome.  So nudging her about dating is not always inappropriate.  But there's too much of it!  And not enough validation that if she truly is just not interested right now, there is nothing wrong with that.

[Scarlett45]

33 minutes ago, Bastet said:

I've been dealing with that for 10+ years longer than you have, so, believe me, I feel you!  I'm grateful that my parents were never among the people pushing me to go man hunting (Mom is still not through being bummed that she's not getting any grandkids - well, beyond those with fur and four legs - but she's never tried to push me into a life I didn't want), so I wish home was also a safe refuge for Jazz on that front, like it is for her on so many others.  Like I said, I'm sympathetic to the difficulty in untangling and identifying the various factors behind her dating issues in order to know which ones to embrace and which ones to encourage her to overcome.  So nudging her about dating is not always inappropriate.  But there's too much of it!  And not enough validation that if she truly is just not interested right now, there is nothing wrong with that.

Thank you for saying that, I used to think as I got older people would quit, but I've heard it only gets worse for women until we hit menopause. 

My Mom is on board with me being childfree too. In my personal life older people are generally more accepting- it's my own peers that give me a hard time. I think because a romantic relationship is SO IMPORTANT to them they cannot understand why it's not important to someone else, I think Jeanette suffers from this. Also the desire that Jazz be as "normal" as possible. Trans people are individuals like everyone else. With anything I think the "model minority" comes into play here too. 

Edited July 7, 2017 by Scarlett45

[Tillshee]

23 hours ago, Bastet said:

I've had issues with the dating thing from jump, too.  Because, to the extent Jazz is interested in but feels hesitant about dating strictly by virtue of being a transgender girl, it's good to encourage her to explore opportunities she can reasonably deem to be safe (and this is SUCH an issue beyond that for cisgender girls).  By her comments, she hasn't fully determined whether she's gay, straight, bisexual, or pansexual, and there's nothing wrong with that, obviously, and dating is a good way of honing in on that. 

But what about any hesitance that is just an inherent part of her personality, that would exist just the same if she was cisgender?  It must be hard to identify the various reasons and what role they all play, so I'm sympathetic to the parents trying to navigate when to encourage and when to step back.  But not everyone has the same interest in dating, or starts feeling it at the same age, whatever their gender identity or sexual orientation.  So no one, especially no girl (given all the sexist shit emphasizing them as/reducing them to romantic partners), should be pushed to date if they are simply not ready to.

It's one of the many thorny issues illuminated by this show, and I'd like to see a little more nuance and thoughtfulness from the adults involved.

Excellent post.  I was 14 when I met my first boyfriend.  However, my mother never allowed me to go out alone on a date with him, so it was pretty much a school and occasional chaperoned dance relationship.  She told me "you're gonna have all of your life to find the right one. You'll be fine. No need to rush." Of course I thought it was B.S. at the time, but she was right.  

Instead of pushing Jazz to date seriously or find love, I would also hope that her parents would encourage her to explore dating when she is ready-not when THEY think she should be ready.  Fall back, she's got enough on her plate as it is. 

[possibilities]

It's funny that Jazz is actually the more grounded one in the family when it comes to this issue. She keeps saying she's not in a rush and will fall in love when she falls in love, and she hasn't even seemed that worried about it.

[Bastet]

I think that's a significant part of why it bothers me so much.  She, like any other girl, is bombarded with all the societal messages about boys being the most important thing in a teenage girl's world, and, as a transgender girl, feels a simultaneous joyous freedom in and pressure to embrace "girly" pursuits.  Yet, despite the usual crap being compounded by an extra issue, she has the fortitude to say, "I don't even know who I'm attracted to.  And I have a lot going on in my life.  There's time."

[possibilities]

Yes. Jazz is really not shy in general. She's very outspoken and knows what she wants. So it's all the more disconcerting to have her mother so aggressively pushing her to want this when she doesn't. I know they worry about her, but if they are worried about her social or sexual adjustment, if they should push anything, it should be therapy, not dating.

[Caracoa1]

I wonder if the reason Jeanette is pushing Jazz to date is because in her mind she is wondering if she did the right thing and let Jazz transition at such a young age. Not all, but most teen girls are boy crazy and Jazz doesn't seem to have any interest.  Was Jeanette this way when Ari was this age?

[Scarlett45]

19 minutes ago, Caracoa1 said:

I wonder if the reason Jeanette is pushing Jazz to date is because in her mind she is wondering if she did the right thing and let Jazz transition at such a young age. Not all, but most teen girls are boy crazy and Jazz doesn't seem to have any interest.  Was Jeanette this way when Ari was this age?

Ummm.....I don't quite follow. You think that Jeanette may think a lack of interest in boys means Jazz is "less a girl"?(bad wording)

I don't think Jeanette thinks that, if Jazz were on the opposite end of the sexuality spectrum and a lesbian that wouldn't make her "less of a girl" -although many people equate gender and sexuality I think Jeanette separates the two.

Some uninformed people (or willfully ignorant) would think that Jazz isn't a girl just a young gay boy (of course I don't think that!), but people expect gay boys that age to have a HUGE interest in sex and other boys (my joke is that a 30yrs old straight woman is really just a gay teen boy...my libido now is like WOAH). 

I think Jeanette wants Jazz to be "normal" (so that Jazz will be happy- I do think she does want Jazz happy) and for Jeanette normal means "heteronormative". 

Edited July 8, 2017 by Scarlett45

[TwirlyGirly]

10 hours ago, possibilities said:

Yes. Jazz is really not shy in general. She's very outspoken and knows what she wants. So it's all the more disconcerting to have her mother so aggressively pushing her to want this when she doesn't. I know they worry about her, but if they are worried about her social or sexual adjustment, if they should push anything, it should be therapy, not dating.

Well, to be fair to both Jazz and her mother, Jazz does send mixed messages (perfectly understandable considering her age, IMO). There have been scenes in which Jazz has said she wishes she had a boyfriend, and seems sad that she doesn't. Then there have also been scenes in which Jazz has expressed she's not really ready for a relationship, is unsure of whether she's primarily attracted to males/females/both. It's typical of 15 year-olds not to know what they want (or to change their minds about what they want depending on the time of day, the weather, or any other completely unrelated factor). Plus, Jazz is also having to sort through what she wants vs. what she thinks she should want - which may or may not be the same thing! This is really complicated stuff for a gender-conforming teen - never mind for one who is transgender.

We're not privy to Jazz' life 24/7, so it may very well be Jeanette hears more of the "I wish I had a boyfriend" stuff than the "I'm not ready to date" stuff. Or, Jeanette might be selectively hearing what she wants to hear. We really don't know.

The point is, teenager communication often is very contradictory. It can be difficult for a parent to figure out what their teenager really wants, and then to separate that from their own desires for their child. So I'm not going to be too hard on Jeanette concerning this situation. She's dealing with "normal" teenage stuff plus a whole bunch of transgender-specific issues with Jazz, and perhaps it's unrealistic (and a bit unfair) to expect her to get it 100% right all the time.

[Scarlett45]

25 minutes ago, TwirlyGirly1 said:

Well, to be fair to both Jazz and her mother, Jazz does send mixed messages (perfectly understandable considering her age, IMO). There have been scenes in which Jazz has said she wishes she had a boyfriend, and seems sad that she doesn't. Then there have also been scenes in which Jazz has expressed she's not really ready for a relationship, is unsure of whether she's primarily attracted to males/females/both. It's typical of 15 year-olds not to know what they want (or to change their minds about what they want depending on the time of day, the weather, or any other completely unrelated factor). Plus, Jazz is also having to sort through what she wants vs. what she thinks she should want - which may or may not be the same thing! This is really complicated stuff for a gender-conforming teen - never mind for one who is transgender.

We're not privy to Jazz' life 24/7, so it may very well be Jeanette hears more of the "I wish I had a boyfriend" stuff than the "I'm not ready to date" stuff. Or, Jeanette might be selectively hearing what she wants to hear. We really don't know.

The point is, teenager communication often is very contradictory. It can be difficult for a parent to figure out what their teenager really wants, and then to separate that from their own desires for their child. So I'm not going to be too hard on Jeanette concerning this situation. She's dealing with "normal" teenage stuff plus a whole bunch of transgender-specific issues with Jazz, and perhaps it's unrealistic (and a bit unfair) to expect her to get it 100% right all the time.

That is a very good point @TwirlyGirly1. I do think Jazz's parents have her best interests at heart, and no parent (or teen) is perfect in communication or understanding.

Again that's why it's so hard to see kids on reality tv like this, having all of their statements and choices dissected etc. 

[MegD]

5 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

5 hours ago, Caracoa1 said:

I wonder if the reason Jeanette is pushing Jazz to date is because in her mind she is wondering if she did the right thing and let Jazz transition at such a young age. Not all, but most teen girls are boy crazy and Jazz doesn't seem to have any interest.  Was Jeanette this way when Ari was this age?

Ummm.....I don't quite follow. You think that Jeanette may think a lack of interest in boys means Jazz is "less a girl"?(bad wording)

I don't think Jeanette thinks that, if Jazz were on the opposite end of the sexuality spectrum and a lesbian that wouldn't make her "less of a girl" -although many people equate gender and sexuality I think Jeanette separates the two.

Some uninformed people (or willfully ignorant) would think that Jazz isn't a girl just a young gay boy (of course I don't think that!), but people expect gay boys that age to have a HUGE interest in sex and other boys (my joke is that a 30yrs old straight woman is really just a gay teen boy...my libido now is like WOAH). 

I think Jeanette wants Jazz to be "normal" (so that Jazz will be happy- I do think she does want Jazz happy) and for Jeanette normal means "heteronormative". 

I think Jeanette may be pushing it so much because Ari was boy crazy at that age and Jazz is a different child. I know that my Mom compared my brothers at various points as teens and I was compared to my cousins for "what to expect." For example, i have 2 brothers, born 3 years apart. They were both very social creatures but for the older one, there was a focus on dating girls and he had a string of girlfriends from middle school through college. In contrast, my youngest brother had lots of girl friends but not girlfriends. He got a lot of pressure from my other brother and my parents wondering why he wasn't dating. I regularly got compared to my cousins even though I had a completely different personality and wasn't interested in dating or makeup or "girly" things. I also got compared to my brothers because books were my friends over people. It's just something a lot of parents do. Jeanette may also be looking at all 3 of her older kids and how they were at the same age and worried that something is wrong with Jazz that she can't fix. She knows Jazz has a history of depression and apparently been having an ever-narrowing social group. Since Jazz seems so hesitant to see a therapist, Jeanette may be trying everything she can think of to get Jazz out of her shell. She also may be blaming herself because simplistically, the only difference in the way all 4 kids was raised is that Jazz was allowed to transition early. She seems to overlook the other ways that Jazz is a different kid from her brothers and sisters, just like all kids are different from their siblings. It could be that despite the social, outgoing face she puts to the world, Jazz is actually quiet and reserved around peers she doesn't know super well. I know that around people I'm comfortable with, I'm a different person than I am when I'm in an unfamiliar or uncomfortable setting. She also may be overlooking the fact that she's made Jazz a very public figure which could directly play into her isolation from her peers.

We also don't know if Jazz's behavior is something that previous doctors or therapists have told them to look out for as possible symptoms of something brewing (like a major depression or suicidal thoughts). Jazz's total lack of sexual interest (has she ever even said a particular actor or actress is attractive? I didn't date in high school and wasn't interested in guys or girls to date but I knew and said that George Clooney and Sandra Bullock were both really attractive) may also be something they were warned about with the hormone blocker as a side effect. By placing an emphasis on dating and "heteronormative" behaviors, she may be overcompensating and trying to push Jazz to eliminate that side effect merely to cover her own guilt or "blame" for allowing Jazz to use the hormone blocker. Such things frequently don't make sense to anyone other than the person who is feeling such things (Jeanette).

[Scarlett45]

21 minutes ago, MegD said:

I think Jeanette may be pushing it so much because Ari was boy crazy at that age and Jazz is a different child. I know that my Mom compared my brothers at various points as teens and I was compared to my cousins for "what to expect." For example, i have 2 brothers, born 3 years apart. They were both very social creatures but for the older one, there was a focus on dating girls and he had a string of girlfriends from middle school through college. In contrast, my youngest brother had lots of girl friends but not girlfriends. He got a lot of pressure from my other brother and my parents wondering why he wasn't dating. I regularly got compared to my cousins even though I had a completely different personality and wasn't interested in dating or makeup or "girly" things. I also got compared to my brothers because books were my friends over people. It's just something a lot of parents do. Jeanette may also be looking at all 3 of her older kids and how they were at the same age and worried that something is wrong with Jazz that she can't fix. She knows Jazz has a history of depression and apparently been having an ever-narrowing social group. Since Jazz seems so hesitant to see a therapist, Jeanette may be trying everything she can think of to get Jazz out of her shell. She also may be blaming herself because simplistically, the only difference in the way all 4 kids was raised is that Jazz was allowed to transition early. She seems to overlook the other ways that Jazz is a different kid from her brothers and sisters, just like all kids are different from their siblings. It could be that despite the social, outgoing face she puts to the world, Jazz is actually quiet and reserved around peers she doesn't know super well. I know that around people I'm comfortable with, I'm a different person than I am when I'm in an unfamiliar or uncomfortable setting. She also may be overlooking the fact that she's made Jazz a very public figure which could directly play into her isolation from her peers.

We also don't know if Jazz's behavior is something that previous doctors or therapists have told them to look out for as possible symptoms of something brewing (like a major depression or suicidal thoughts). Jazz's total lack of sexual interest (has she ever even said a particular actor or actress is attractive? I didn't date in high school and wasn't interested in guys or girls to date but I knew and said that George Clooney and Sandra Bullock were both really attractive) may also be something they were warned about with the hormone blocker as a side effect. By placing an emphasis on dating and "heteronormative" behaviors, she may be overcompensating and trying to push Jazz to eliminate that side effect merely to cover her own guilt or "blame" for allowing Jazz to use the hormone blocker. Such things frequently don't make sense to anyone other than the person who is feeling such things (Jeanette).

Ah! Thank you so much for taking the time to explain. That does make a lot of sense. 

[orangeiguana]

I'm still trying to understand what a "girl brain" is (as in Jazz's early childhood home video "I have a girl brain and a boy body..."). Any opinions?

[Impatient]

My ears pricked up when Jazz told her parents that Mya asked her to come along to meet with Mya's brother.  Jazz was the one who initiated that, not Mya.  Jazz was the one who said, "Do you want me to come along to?  I'd be happy to!" Or something like that.  It was not Mya's idea.  And it is the difference between Jazz being a godd supportive friend and being a domineering butt-in-sky who wants to bully the straight brother on TV.

 

she's developing an out of control ego.  If those parents don't rein her in, there will be hell to pay --- if, for example, she gets a vaginoplasty using whatever tissues they have to use, and she realizes this will be a nightmare from which there is no return.  Itwill then be her parents' fault, they made this decision for her when she was 3, she'll sue them.....  I can imagine a ton of nightmare scenarios.

 

i have to wonder, is that comeuppance being developed as a plot device?

I have to say the nature of jazz's parents' relationship fascinates me.  They seem very much bonded and yet, i can't figure out why.  They grew up together, so is it just comfortableness?  Familiarity?  Do they have interests in common?

[Caracoa1]

Jazz doesn't appear to give any thought on how expensive her life is for her parents... I understand that is not her fault...her family appears to be very financially healthy and Jazz seems to get whatever she wants.   I was somewhat taken back when her father voiced his concern that at 16 she is still very young for bottom surgery and she should wait til she was 18 and a legal adult.  Jazz made it clear to him that ultimately it was her decision.  Yes..it is her decision to have or not have surgery...but does she realize at 16 no surgeon is going to touch her without parental consent...and even at 18 no surgeon is going to perform this elective surgery without assurance of being paid whether it is thru insurance or personal payment.  

[KBrownie]

6 hours ago, Caracoa1 said:

Jazz doesn't appear to give any thought on how expensive her life is for her parents... I understand that is not her fault...her family appears to be very financially healthy and Jazz seems to get whatever she wants.   I was somewhat taken back when her father voiced his concern that at 16 she is still very young for bottom surgery and she should wait til she was 18 and a legal adult.  Jazz made it clear to him that ultimately it was her decision.  Yes..it is her decision to have or not have surgery...but does she realize at 16 no surgeon is going to touch her without parental consent...and even at 18 no surgeon is going to perform this elective surgery without assurance of being paid whether it is thru insurance or personal payment.  

There's a lot Jazz doesn't know despite her attitude that she knows everything about everything.  It's becoming clearer and clearer why she doesn't have a lot of close friends and why the group of friends she had broke off from her.  She doesn't seem to be all that nice of a person when you get to know her a little.  She's a spoiled know it all who doesn't really listen if you have an opinion different from hers.  She needs friends or someone in her life who will challenge her and not just acquiesce to everything she says and be willing to tell her when she's wrong.  Her parents don't really seem to be up to that challenge even though having a know it all teen isn't at all an unusual circumstance.  Especially when you've already raised three kids before her.  Her grandfather tried, but she doesn't deem him worthy of her time or effort, so she just brushed him off and wasn't called on her behavior.  I thought he was being nice when he called her "precocious."  I really enjoy the grandparents.  They tell the truth of what the dynamics are in that family without being mean or petty.  Even her trans friends don't really question her on anything.  Their conversations are always just confirming stuff she already agrees with.  But that could be the influence of the cameras.  You would think having three older siblings would have kept that kind of attitude in check, but it seems as if Jazz's situation prevented some normal sibling interactions in that household.  I imagine the other three were expected to treat her with special kid gloves and take special care with her feelings, while she seems to have never had to take into consideration anyone's feelings other than her own.  Ari in particular has always seemed checked out from her family.

[Eureka]

On 7/3/2017 at 1:23 PM, ClareWalks said:

Teenage boys tend to be pretty skinny, though (except for the rare specimen generally found on a football team). Maybe after 18 years old his body will "fill out" a bit. 

My 16 yr old son has had a full beard since he was 14 and is very skinny. Hard to find pants that fit him because he's also tall.