S04.E01: Post Truth

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Liza deals with the aftermath of coming clean with Kelsey; Charles tests their synchronicity; Kelsey and Josh become unlikely allies.

[Maharincess]

No comments yet.  I liked the premier. I thought it was a really good episode and I'm all in for the season after seeing the previews.  I even like that Kelsey moved in with Josh, it adds a little dramatic twist.  

I can't wait to see what everyone thought about it. 

I'm on the West Coast but since I got rid of cable and joined Sling TV, I get to see shows 3 hours early.  I've been teasing my daughter that I already watched and she still had to wait 3 hours. 

Edited June 29, 2017 by Maharincess

[WhosThatGirl]

I'm kind of eh on it. That's just me. Also seeing the previews not into kelsey and josh hooking up at all so I hope its a falsehood preview thing. 

[HunterHunted]

I don't mind Josh and Kelsey as a post-Liza support group, but I don't like the idea of them hooking up. However, Kelsey's global sanctimony about Liza's lies is ridiculous because Liza lied quite a bit about serious shit for Kelsey too. If Kelsey wants to maintain the moral high ground, then she needs to focus on those times when Liza's lies made everyone's lives worse--buying that dog book, Thad's death, or even the fact that Liza's friends think the absolute worst of Josh. Liza needs to provide for herself and her daughter. No one would fault her for that even if she's doing a little lying. The problem is when Liza's need to hide her secret starts infringing on other people making things difficult in their lives, jobs, and businesses.

[voiceover]

1 hour ago, HunterHunted said:

 If Kelsey wants to maintain the moral high ground, then she needs to focus on those times when Liza's lies made everyone's lives worse--buying that dog book, Thad's death, or even the fact that Liza's friends think the absolute worst of Josh. 

Am I reading this wrong, or are you blaming Josh's death on Liza's lie?  Because I don't see that at all.  The dog book: absolutely.

It doesn't bother me that Liza's friends thought "the absolute worst of Josh".  Even if it was the Big Lie that was responsible -- who cares?  A handful of people thought a tattoo artist wasn't treating his gf well.  Eh, don't friends generally take your side in those situations, because that's their job, as your friends?  

I'll sign on to a Josh/Kelsey as roommates, but nothing more, because "the enemy of my enemy is my fuckbuddy" is always a gross place to start a relationship.

I forgot: why did Kelsey & the writer break up?

[stormborn]

I think that was a pretty strong premiere. I really liked how the show handled Kelsey's reaction to the news. I appreciate that she didn't have a huge emotional outburst because no.1) the shock of it all must've hit her like a ton of bricks and no.2) she now has to process and question their entire friendship. But you can tell that the pain she feels runs deep. It was a good bit of acting from Hillary when Kelsey told Liza that she broke her heart. I really felt that. Also as a long time SATC superfan I could tell that the "you broke my heart" line was a callback to when Aidan told Carrie that she broke his heart when she wanted to get back with him after the big BIG AFFAIR. I gotta do some imdb sleuthing to see if Darren Star wrote that episode as well. 

 

I'm #TeamCharles and I was really happy with his and Liza's scenes tonight. I love a good slowburn and these two are really giving me what I need. When things finally *ahem* come to a head between those two it's gonna be fireworks. I can't wait. 

 

And lol I know I'm VERY much in the minority here wrt Kelsey and Josh cause I'm totally fine with them becoming a thing. I actually think Nico and Hillary have great chemistry plus Kelsey and Josh are also total opposites so I can see some fun relationship shenanigans brewing there even with their new roommate situation. 

 But I don't think the show has any plans for them to hook up this season at all, I think this season is primarily about them both trying to process their respective Liza drama debacles, realizing how much they both still love her and strike up a friendship all their own, independent of Liza but also because of Liza if that makes any sense lol??

The complexion of their relationship/friendship is gonna change though, for sure. 

 

Oh and you can never go wrong with Ms. Chenoweth. I loved her in the episode playing what I think is meant to be a take on Kellyanne Conway?? Either way she was gold as usual. 

 

The rest of the season looks like frothy summer fun. I'm ready. 

[dubbel zout]

5 hours ago, voiceover said:

I'll sign on to a Josh/Kelsey as roommates, but nothing more, because "the enemy of my enemy is my fuckbuddy" is always a gross place to start a relationship.

Same here. For them to hook up is such a terrible cliché. I'd hoped the show would avoid this particular one.

Liza's lies aren't responsible for Thad's death. They were meeting to talk about him finding out she was lying. He was then crushed by a construction beam. Wrong place, wrong time. That's all.

5 hours ago, voiceover said:

I forgot: why did Kelsey & the writer break up?

Because he went with another publisher and there was friction with his editor. Also, he kind of used her for her professional connections.

The shot of 6'6" Peter Hermann and 4'11" Kristin Chenowith (probably 5'4" tops in heels) cracked me up. I wonder how long it took to block that shot; hee. And yes, she was a Kellyanne Conway–type person.

[Bort]

40 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

5 hours ago, voiceover said:

I forgot: why did Kelsey & the writer break up?

Because he went with another publisher and there was friction with his editor. Also, he kind of used her for her professional connections.

They were still together after that. In fact, I didn't see them actually breaking up. Kelsey needed a place to say after Lauren moved her boyfriend into her parents' house with all of them (Kelsey had no privacy at all because they put the boyfriend's gym equipment in Kelsey's room). So she told the writer boyfriend that she needed a place to stay temporarily and he was fine with it for all of about five hours before he was all, "I'm not ready for us to live together!" despite Kelsey insisting it was temporary, he wasn't buying it, and that's when she showed up at Maggie and Liza's place.

[dubbel zout]

32 minutes ago, kariyaki said:

So she told the writer boyfriend that she needed a place to stay temporarily and he was fine with it for all of about five hours before he was all, "I'm not ready for us to live together!"

Oh, right. But didn't that break them up, because Kelsey said it was truly just temporary—she really did want to find her own place; this wasn't a backdoor way to live with him—and he couldn't even let her stay there more than five hours?

[Mambo Gladys]

Is anyone else annoyed that they make it seem like Kelsey is so poor that she has to live with someone else and can't get her own place?

[Bort]

33 minutes ago, saratothej said:

Is anyone else annoyed that they make it seem like Kelsey is so poor that she has to live with someone else and can't get her own place?

Kelsey can afford her own place. The explanation was that she was living with Lauren and her parents because she was dating/engaged to Thad and would get a place with him soon enough. But then he died. And now she needs to move on short notice, which is difficult in New York. Takes time to find a place there.

[gesundheit]

Kelsey works in publishing in NYC, she's not going to be able to afford her own place in a neighborhood she wants to be in (and maintain her high-cost social life), hence her hunt for roommates. Which reminds me, did Josh's old roommate move out and we missed it? (Not that it would be necessary to see.) I find Charles so dull. Liza is 40, not 60. Lauren, Diana, and Maggie continue to be the characters who interest me most, so I'm definitely watching this wrong.

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

Even people with a decent income would really struggle to find a decent apartment in NYC, and would most likely need to have a roommate in order to be comfortable. Plus, being part of the scene is part of her job, and 3-4 times a week being seen at hotspots ain't cheap. 

The casual transphobia between Diana and NotKellyanne was pretty gross, as was the rape joke about Lauren and her boyfriend. This show isn't as progressive as it wants to believe, which is the same problem I had 15 years ago with Sex and the City. 

[dubbel zout]

51 minutes ago, gesundheit said:

Kelsey works in publishing in NYC, she's not going to be able to afford her own place in a neighborhood she wants to be in (and maintain her high-cost social life), hence her hunt for roommates.

Depends on how realistic the show wants to get. IRL, Kelsey would likely need roommates, unless she got help from her parents or lucked into a rent-stabilized apartment.

45 minutes ago, ZuluQueenOfDwarves said:

Plus, being part of the scene is part of her job, and 3-4 times a week being seen at hotspots ain't cheap. 

If it's part of her job, she can likely expense some, most, or all of it. If she can't, she needs to have a talk with Charles about it.

[MissEwa]

1 hour ago, gesundheit said:

I find Charles so dull. Liza is 40, not 60. 

+1. As someone who is inching ever closer to 40 (and moves in very writerly circles), this show confuses me sometimes. Hemmingway? Really? I don't understand the stilted way he speaks, either, and I know #teamcharles is winning and all but I can't really get over the fact that as far as he knows, she's a 26-year-old junior at the company he owns. I'm not on board with him not even being particularly conflicted about that.

53 minutes ago, ZuluQueenOfDwarves said:

The casual transphobia between Diana and NotKellyanne was pretty gross, as was the rape joke about Lauren and her boyfriend. This show isn't as progressive as it wants to believe, which is the same problem I had 15 years ago with Sex and the City. 

I didn't really watch SATC but yeah those two things really irked. And both stuck out really badly - like they'd been written in later to make the show edgy or something. 

10 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

The shot of 6'6" Peter Hermann and 4'11" Kristin Chenowith (probably 5'4" tops in heels) cracked me up. I wonder how long it took to block that shot; hee. 

I couldn't stop laughing. It was like she was standing in a ditch. 

[amsomething]

I LOVED the season 4 premiere!  I am strongly #TeamCharles, so I loved the scenes with Liza and Charles.

A literature nerd (such as myself) would probably go ga-ga over memorabilia related to literary giants, such as Hemingway.  Charles and Liza are both literature nerds, as well, so they'd likely be impressed with such memorabilia, as well.  Personally, I would be more excited about memorabilia from Keats, Longfellow, Poe, Plath, Woolf, Faulkner, Twain, Fitzgerald, Steinbeck, and Lee, but I would still be impressed with Hemingway memorabilia. 

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

If it's part of her job, she can likely expense some, most, or all of it. If she can't, she needs to have a talk with Charles about it.

She could for sure expense drinks, transit, etc. for things directly related to Empirical/Millennial, but just being a scenester, she can't. It falls into a nebulous area, because there's likely nothing in her contract saying she has to hit up clubs/industry events, but doing so raises her and her imprint's visibility, which means she'll be connected, writers will want to work with her, agents will send her their hottest properties. But since it's not technically part of her job, doubtful she'd have it approved by their Finance department. Possibly she could deduct some from her taxes as networking expenses, but likely not all, and she'd still have to shell out up front. 

This show is definitely not realistic, but I appreciate that it tries to show that working in New York and leading a seemingly glam lifestyle requires compromises regarding second jobs, secondhand clothes, and roommates. 

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, MissEwa said:

as far as he knows, she's a 26-year-old junior at the company he owns. I'm not on board with him not even being particularly conflicted about that.

This has always bothered me, and I wish the show dealt with this more than it does. Just because there's no actual age difference doesn't mean the power differential doesn't exist either.

[gesundheit]

4 hours ago, ZuluQueenOfDwarves said:

The casual transphobia between Diana and NotKellyanne was pretty gross, as was the rape joke about Lauren and her boyfriend. This show isn't as progressive as it wants to believe, which is the same problem I had 15 years ago with Sex and the City. 

Agreed. Super-gross. They could have even still kept both jokes with some tweaks (for instance Lauren could've said she thought about doing that, and the follow-up could have been identical and worked), but nope. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

But Liza's lie about her age DID inadvertently lead to Thad's death.  Isn't it true that if she hadn't lied about her age that wouldn't have happened?
Does Kelsey know about THAT part? 

[Texasmom1970]

Props to the wardrobe department for finding the biggest and most unique necklaces in existence for Diana.

[voiceover]

5 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

But Liza's lie about her age DID inadvertently lead to Thad's death.  Isn't it true that if she hadn't lied about her age that wouldn't have happened?
Does Kelsey know about THAT part? 

No, I can't.  

If her lie was " I'm a qualified surgeon", and Thad died when she operated on him: sure.

She did not have him stand on an "x" so the beam could flatten him.  If they'd been meeting to discuss a surprise for Kelsey (and isn't that what Liza "confessed" to?), apparently the result would've been the same, unless karma & bad vibes were what sent that metal earthward.

Here's what I do think: it was a telenovela plot twist & I wasn't a fan.

[bethster2000]

7 hours ago, gesundheit said:

This show isn't as progressive as it wants to believe, which is the same problem I had 15 years ago with Sex and the City. 

Couldn't agree more.  Binge-watched it recently and can sum it up thusly: Suspend disbelief and watch a woman throw away the goodness of her forties to look and act like a ridiculous skank and be embarrassing and foolish while doing it.

Not a fan.

[luna1122]

It's increasingly harder to believe that anyone would actually believe Liza was in her 20s.

I think Charles is handsome, and I'd be interested in Hemingway/literary memorabilia too, but he's....stodgy and kind of boring. Of course, I think ultimately Liza is inherently that as well, so I guess they're a good match. Also, I'm older than Liza and Maggie, and for them to not have a CLUE what 'black mirror' is was stupid. I mean, I'm guessing it's supposed to be yet one more thing 'old folks' aren't hip enuf to know about, right?

I totally do think Josh and Kelsey will hook up, and it will be mostly all about Liza, at first, but they actually do have some chemistry. And I don't think Liza has much of a leg to stand on if she gets jealous.

The rape joke was not funny, tho the line read of 'whoops' by the actress who plays Lauren admittedly was.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Kristin Chenoweth was a delight as always. This role was just perfect for her, and I'm sure it was really fun for her to play. I was initially disappointed that everyone was already seated in the meeting because I was dying to see Melissa standing next to Charles, so I wanted to high five the director for following that with the two of them walking next to each other in the hallway. Even in heels, she didn't come up to his shoulder! Side note: a friend of mine in high school was about the same height as Cheno and she ALWAYS dated guys who were over 6' tall so I was remembering her homecoming and prom pictures when Cheno and Charles were standing next to each other.

I'm okay with Kelsey and Josh having their own two person Liza Support Group, but only if it stays platonic. I am not here to watch those two hook up. But I get why they would turn to each other as friends right now. As hurt as they are, they aren't going to blow up Liza's world by exposing her which means continuing to keep her secret while they are still getting over feeling betrayed. They can't talk to anyone else about how they feel without sharing Liza's secret, so it makes sense that they would end up bonding over Liza.

Maybe it's because I've always had friends who are both older and younger than I am, but I can't imagine getting THAT upset if I later found out that a friend of mine was a different age. Lying to your friends isn't nice, but it's not like Liza was lying because she's a compulsive liar or a drama queen. She had a real reason for fibbing about her age. She wasn't trying to fool people just for fun. She was trying to get a job so she could pay the bills and make sure that her daughter was taken care of, ideally in the same industry she had last worked in before her kid was born. If one of my coworkers told me that she'd lied about her age to get a job, it would be hard for me to be really mad at her. If anything, I would be mad that she couldn't get the exact same job when people knew her real age. I know that Kelsey is upset that Liza lied to her, but as someone pointed out above, it's not like Kelsey is the kind of strait laced girl who always tells the truth no matter what. As a coworker, I would look at Liza's performance and ask myself if she did her job well. As a friend, I would look at her behavior and ask myself if she was supportive and kind, wanting the best for me and encouraging me to make good decisions. In both cases, I'd say that Liza was a good employee and a good friend, regardless of how old I thought she was at the time.

I agree that Liza and Maggie not knowing what Black Mirror is was stupid. If you have Netflix, it's shown up on the home page so even if you haven't watched it, you must know that it exists. But that's my problem with a lot of the older vs. younger generation "humor" on this show. Diana, Charles, and Liza aren't in their 20s anymore but they have access to the internet and pop culture so it makes no sense that they're often so clueless. At least on The Great Indoors, I could fanwank that Joel McHale's character was out of touch because he'd been backpacking in remote places so keeping up on the latest apps and memes wasn't his top priority. But what excuse can I possibly come up with Charles, Diana, and Liza not knowing basic things? This week, Charles asked Marilyn how she could be tweeting from China if she was in New York with him. Seriously? Does he not know how Twitter and the internet work? You can say you're anywhere you want when you post something.

I also agree that the trans "joke" and the rape "joke" not only fell beyond flat and traipsed right over the line into ignorant and offensive, but that even worse, those tone deaf jokes seemed like an attempt to be edgy and au courant (which failed miserably).

[gesundheit]

If I were Kelsey I don't think I'd much care that my bestie was 40 instead of 26. I would care a WHOLE hell of a lot that she had an 18 year old daughter she never told me about. And if I were her daughter, it would be scorched earth.

[MaggieG]

11 hours ago, Texasmom1970 said:

Props to the wardrobe department for finding the biggest and most unique necklaces in existence for Diana.

I know her necklaces are always big and crazy but this one was gigantic! It looked like a Flava Flav clock

[dubbel zout]

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Even in heels, she didn't come up to his shoulder!

She barely came up to his waist.

53 minutes ago, MaggieG said:

11 hours ago, Texasmom1970 said:

Props to the wardrobe department for finding the biggest and most unique necklaces in existence for Diana.

I know her necklaces are always big and crazy but this one was gigantic! It looked like a Flava Flav clock

I always wonder if Miriam Shor goes him with terrible neck and/or backaches.

[dmc]

I mean I can see why Kelsey is upset but she was dating/engaged to someone who cheated and lied to her and she knew about it...she was having an affair with that author and Liza had to lie for her...I mean...so...its a bit much...

 

I did not appreciate her moving in with Josh...it was clearly just to hurt Liza because they have little to no relationship

[dubbel zout]

15 minutes ago, dmc said:

they have little to no relationship

I disagree; Kelsey and Josh have hung out a lot. Maybe not much with just the two of them, but they've seen each other at many work functions and bars and the like. Plus, Liza has talked a lot about Josh to Kelsey and about Kelsey to Josh. They aren't strangers by any means.

[dmc]

1 minute ago, dubbel zout said:

I disagree; Kelsey and Josh have hung out a lot. Maybe not much with just the two of them, but they've seen each other at many work functions and bars and the like. Plus, Liza has talked a lot about Josh to Kelsey and about Kelsey to Josh. They aren't strangers by any means.

So would you have been surprised if Liza moved in with Thad?

[dubbel zout]

I'd have been surprised more because Liza would likely have gone to stay with a friend in New Jersey.  But let's say for argument's sake she had to stay in the city and with someone the audience has already met, then Thad's as good as anyone. It's kind of apples and oranges because Liza didn't really like Thad, and Kelsey and Josh are much friendlier.

Kelsey living with Josh is ostensibly temporary, and we don't know any other friends of Kelsey's that she'd be more likely to stay with. 

 As a plot point I don't like it for a variety of reasons. But it's not entirely out of left field.

Edited June 30, 2017 by dubbel zout

[voiceover]

Wow.  I'm really...bemused by the rejection of the idea that people over 40 don't know everything about techno/pop culture.

I think it's one of the few realistic threads in this series.  I love British TV (eh, some of it), but I don't have Netflix, and I no longer subscribe to EW, so I had no fucking clue what "Black Mirror" was.

I may be *ignorant of the fact*.  This does not make me stupid.  But thanks.

When you're this far into your career, you're still working in the parameters of *how* you learned things.  Learning the latest tech is easy enough for someone who grew up on that moving sidewalk.  Harder when you have to sprint to catch up to that sidewalk.  With your arms full of old-knowledge baggage.  And you have to jump.  Doesn't matter if your profession is now embracing it.

Then again: sometimes you're just not interested.

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

I don't think it's that Liza lied about her age that bothers Kelsey, it's that she's an entirely different person than Kelsey thought. Kelsey thought she knew everything relevant about Liza, but now she's a mother, and used to have a husband, and has obscured all these important facets of herself from Kelsey, on purpose. That's gotta hurt. 

 

Someone in publishing who knows the hot bloggers, critics, publications, et al, knows enough about pop culture to know what Black Mirror is, the premise if not the plot of every episode. It's not an age thing, it's a relevance thing. I don't know the current Phillies lineup, which is something most millennials living in Philadelphia know, but I don't like sports or work in a relevant field, so there's that. 

[dubbel zout]

18 minutes ago, ZuluQueenOfDwarves said:

Someone in publishing who knows the hot bloggers, critics, publications, et al, knows enough about pop culture to know what Black Mirror is, the premise if not the plot of every episode. It's not an age thing, it's a relevance thing.

This. They don't have to have seen every episode of Black Mirror, but they need to know why it's important. The series got a lot of major press. I wish they'd had them say something like "I haven't seen it yet/It's on my list to watch" instead of having them totally unaware of it.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I don't think it's that Liza lied about her age that bothers Kelsey, it's that she's an entirely different person than Kelsey thought. Kelsey thought she knew everything relevant about Liza, but now she's a mother, and used to have a husband, and has obscured all these important facets of herself from Kelsey, on purpose. That's gotta hurt. 

I agree.  Liza has a daughter who is closer in age to Kelsey than Liza is!  If I were Kelsey, I would feel seriously betrayed here, and in reality, I doubt she would ever be friends with Liza again.  And it's not a matter of Liza having covered or lied for Kelsey in the past, so that somehow takes Kelsey off her high horse.  Liza's lie essentially says to Kelsey: "Even though I'm telling you now how much I love you, the reality is that I didn't trust you and was happy to put myself first when it mattered."     

[voiceover]

 "Should know"?  Sure.  For as big a douchebag as last season's "I'm on the Spectrum" squirt was, he was right about Diana & Charles & their reluctance to get with the times.

I didn't say it was a good thing.  I was explaining WHY it was a tough thing.  A thing that might see their current careers end before retirement is an option.  In that way, the series is an alarm bell for people like me.

Diana hired someone she thought was a millennial to vet that sort of thing, and Charles gave an actual one, her own imprint.  So they're trying.  You can say that that's  not good enough, and it would be a reasonable argument.  I don't know about EVERYone over 40, in small NY publishing houses, being super in-tune with the hip & trendy.  It's why they hire people who are.

Edited July 1, 2017 by voiceover

[BellyLaughter]

I have always enjoyed the Liza/Kelsey friendship dynamic - especially the way their working partnership has grown - so watching them tread water for the foreseeable future is gonna be hard.  

Don't care for the Kristin Chenoweth character....the real Kelly Anne Conway is enough to put up with let alone a horrible caricature of her....

#TeamCharles...Kelsey can have Josh....

[MissEwa]

13 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Maybe it's because I've always had friends who are both older and younger than I am, but I can't imagine getting THAT upset if I later found out that a friend of mine was a different age. Lying to your friends isn't nice, but it's not like Liza was lying because she's a compulsive liar or a drama queen. She had a real reason for fibbing about her age. She wasn't trying to fool people just for fun. She was trying to get a job so she could pay the bills and make sure that her daughter was taken care of, ideally in the same industry she had last worked in before her kid was born. If one of my coworkers told me that she'd lied about her age to get a job, it would be hard for me to be really mad at her. If anything, I would be mad that she couldn't get the exact same job when people knew her real age. I know that Kelsey is upset that Liza lied to her, but as someone pointed out above, it's not like Kelsey is the kind of strait laced girl who always tells the truth no matter what. As a coworker, I would look at Liza's performance and ask myself if she did her job well. As a friend, I would look at her behavior and ask myself if she was supportive and kind, wanting the best for me and encouraging me to make good decisions. In both cases, I'd say that Liza was a good employee and a good friend, regardless of how old I thought she was at the time.

I don't know. I don't care what age my friends are either but I would care if they told me they were one thing (not just age) and they were really another. I think, if we were as close as Kelsey and Liza were, a huge part of that would be the hurt of not being trusted with this secret for so long. Also Kelsey kind of staked a lot of her professional reputation on Liza, and the person Liza said she was, so that would be a factor too. I think she can logically know *why* Liza did it and think it's not fair that she had to, but be hurt on a personal level. 

 

5 hours ago, voiceover said:

Wow.  I'm really...bemused by the rejection of the idea that people over 40 don't know everything about techno/pop culture.

I think it's one of the few realistic threads in this series.  I love British TV (eh, some of it), but I don't have Netflix, and I no longer subscribe to EW, so I had no fucking clue what "Black Mirror" was.

I may be *ignorant of the fact*.  This does not make me stupid.  But thanks.

When you're this far into your career, you're still working in the parameters of *how* you learned things.  Learning the latest tech is easy enough for someone who grew up on that moving sidewalk.  Harder when you have to sprint to catch up to that sidewalk.  With your arms full of old-knowledge baggage.  And you have to jump.  Doesn't matter if your profession is now embracing it.

Then again: sometimes you're just not interested.

I don't think it's stupid of you not to know Black Mirror (or anything else), but I do think the show has a very unrealistic view of people over 40 and their relationships with technology and pop-culture. There seems to be this very simplified and false view that 20-something = tech-savvy, pop-culture and social media obsessive, while 40-something = technologically illiterate, only into highbrow culture. It seems very out-dated and mostly used for cheap jokes. Also, being not interested can happen at any age.

To me, it seems reasonable that Liza didn't know what Black Mirror was, but it seemed unrealistic that Maggie didn't either (and to be honest, to me it also seemed a bit of a stretch for Kelsey to use it as a reference). 

Sometimes I just find this show so confusing - I can't figure out who it's written by (or written for). Sometimes it feels like it's written by a 20-something whose main frame of reference for 40-year-olds is their own parents (who are probably actually 50-odd). And sometimes it feels like it's written by a 40-something trying a little bit too hard to relate to the youngsters. It's weird. 

[dmc]

10 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I'd have been surprised more because Liza would likely have gone to stay with a friend in New Jersey.  But let's say for argument's sake she had to stay in the city and with someone the audience has already met, then Thad's as good as anyone. It's kind of apples and oranges because Liza didn't really like Thad, and Kelsey and Josh are much friendlier.

Kelsey living with Josh is ostensibly temporary, and we don't know any other friends of Kelsey's that she'd be more likely to stay with. 

 As a plot point I don't like it for a variety of reasons. But it's not entirely out of left field.

I have hung out for years with friend’s significant others but I think it would weird to live with them.  

 

What happened to Josh’s two roommates?

[voiceover]

8 hours ago, ZuluQueenOfDwarves said:

 I don't know the current Phillies lineup, which is something most millennials living in Philadelphia know, but I don't like sports or work in a relevant field, so there's that. 

Eh.  At 26 games under .500 & 20 games back, I'd understand if nobody but diehards -- regardless of age -- knew that lineup.?

1 hour ago, dmc said:

I have hung out for years with friend’s significant others but I think it would weird to live with them.  

This.

[stormborn]

On 6/29/2017 at 5:02 PM, ZuluQueenOfDwarves said:

The casual transphobia between Diana and NotKellyanne was pretty gross, as was the rape joke about Lauren and her boyfriend. This show isn't as progressive as it wants to believe, which is the same problem I had 15 years ago with Sex and the City. 

I totally agree. Both of those lines came off as out of touch and trying way too hard to be edgy but really just ended up just being plain offensive. They used to do the same type of crap on SATC (biphobia, transphobia and homophobia) and it's sad and disappointing to see that DS hasn't evolved past that. 

 

Also I just wanted to add my two cents in on the Kelsey debate and as to WHY she's mad at Liza. I don't think Kelsey's mad that Liza lied about her age, I think Kelsey is mad that even after they became good friends, Liza chose to continue lying to her. Now, we as the audience, know about the times Liza wanted to tell Kelsey and was about to but Kelsey doesn't know that. And also; I think what's fueling the majority of Kelsey's ire is that Liza, by telling the truth, has essentially taken away her Liza.  The Liza that she knew and loved and trusted. She's laid herself bare with Liza; Liza knows ALL of her dirty laundry and all of her secrets and the whole time she didn't even know who Liza truly was.

And even though Liza is the same person, Kelsey might feel like she can't even know that for sure. Because Liza is essentially a liar and a fraud. I love Liza but that's what she is when you get down to brass tacks. Now I think this season they're going to go through a process of learning to trust each other again and reset their friendship by season's end and I personally think that's healthy but I completely understand why Kelsey is as mad as she is. Yes, Liza has lied for Kelsey but the entire time Kelsey was trusting Liza with her very sensitive business; Liza wasn't doing the same. 

[Maharincess]

19 hours ago, luna1122 said:

It's increasingly harder to believe that anyone would actually believe Liza was in her 20s.

I think Charles is handsome, and I'd be interested in Hemingway/literary memorabilia too, but he's....stodgy and kind of boring. Of course, I think ultimately Liza is inherently that as well, so I guess they're a good match. Also, I'm older than Liza and Maggie, and for them to not have a CLUE what 'black mirror' is was stupid. I mean, I'm guessing it's supposed to be yet one more thing 'old folks' aren't hip enuf to know about, right?

I totally do think Josh and Kelsey will hook up, and it will be mostly all about Liza, at first, but they actually do have some chemistry. And I don't think Liza has much of a leg to stand on if she gets jealous.

The rape joke was not funny, tho the line read of 'whoops' by the actress who plays Lauren admittedly was.

I have no clue what black mirror is and I don't know who Kelly Ann Conway is either. I'm 51, I asked my 24 year old niece, my 31 year old son and a 40 something friend and they didn't know what black mirror is so its not an age thing. Not in my Case anyway.    

 I agree about Liza's age, I never thought she looked like she was in her 20s.  Speaking of her age, how is it that after three seasons, she's still "26"?

I have a sincere question, not to the poster I quoted, but to the board. How is the scene with Diana and whats-her-name transphobic?  All I saw was a woman saying another woman was transgender and the other woman denying it.   How is that being phobic?  I'm not transphobic in the least but if somebody said I was transgender, I would also deny it.  I watched it live and had to put the dog outside while it was on so I may have missed something.   Like I said, its a sincere question because I didn't see a problem with it but others seem to and I'm curious as to why.  I don't think joking about something means you've got a phobia, but that is just my opinion.  I'm sorry if this offends anyone. 

I wouldn't mind Josh and Kelsey getting together. Its a soapy drama so it wouldn't bother me.  I kind of hope they do. 

Now for the shallow end of the pool. I recently bought a smart HDTV so I never noticed this before, but Josh has the strangest looking nose I've ever seen. I've never seen a square tip on a nose before.  

Edited July 1, 2017 by Maharincess

[Snarklepuss]

15 hours ago, voiceover said:

Wow.  I'm really...bemused by the rejection of the idea that people over 40 don't know everything about techno/pop culture.

I think it's one of the few realistic threads in this series.  I love British TV (eh, some of it), but I don't have Netflix, and I no longer subscribe to EW, so I had no fucking clue what "Black Mirror" was.

I may be *ignorant of the fact*.  This does not make me stupid.  But thanks.

When you're this far into your career, you're still working in the parameters of *how* you learned things.  Learning the latest tech is easy enough for someone who grew up on that moving sidewalk.  Harder when you have to sprint to catch up to that sidewalk.  With your arms full of old-knowledge baggage.  And you have to jump.  Doesn't matter if your profession is now embracing it.

Then again: sometimes you're just not interested.

Thank you, ITA.  I'm hardly unaware of what's going on in modern society and culture especially compared with people my age (59) but I too don't have Netflix nor did I have a clue what "Black Mirror" was.  That's probably more a function of not having Netflix than my age or my level of cultural awareness, though, IMO.  Taking a look at it online I saw that it's hardly a sweeping cultural phenomenon given the few episodes in existence and its limited availability, and I figure it's one of those "niche" things that unless you're a subscriber and are exposed to a certain milieu you might not know.  Should I expect every Millennial to know what "Are You Being Served?" or "Fawlty Towers" was?  Just because it was 40 years ago and not current doesn't make it irrelevant.  But no, I wouldn't expect them to know what they were even if I do think they were iconic and household words when I was young.  And I wouldn't say young people were uninformed or uneducated in TV history for not being aware of something that to their generation might be a very niche interest.  So I kind of expect that level of respect for my own knowledge in return.  But I've gone on too much already.

[Snarklepuss]

On 6/29/2017 at 6:05 PM, MissEwa said:

+1. As someone who is inching ever closer to 40 (and moves in very writerly circles), this show confuses me sometimes. Hemmingway? Really? I don't understand the stilted way he speaks, either, and I know #teamcharles is winning and all but I can't really get over the fact that as far as he knows, she's a 26-year-old junior at the company he owns. I'm not on board with him not even being particularly conflicted about that.

Yeah, I don't get that about Charles to be honest.  He seems so straight laced and concerned with propriety so this is completely out of character for him.  Although I would be lying if I said I hadn't seen it before IRL as I've known people to be wildly inconsistent when it comes to their own obsessions.  So anything is possible I suppose.

What's wrong with Hemmingway Hemingway?*

Edited July 3, 2017 by Snarklepuss
*Corrected because my literary maven mother wouldn't stop rolling in her grave if I let a typo like that stand. And yes, it was a typo; I go back over 50 years with Hemingway.

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

6 hours ago, Maharincess said:

I have a sincere question, not to the poster I quoted, but to the board. How is the scene with Diana and whats-her-name transphobic?  All I saw was a woman saying another woman was transgender and the other woman denying it.   How is that being phobic?  I'm not transphobic in the least but if somebody said I was transgender, I would also deny it.  I watched it live and had to put the dog outside while it was on so I may have missed something.   Like I said, its a sincere question because I didn't see a problem with it but others seem to and I'm curious as to why.  I don't think joking about something means you've got a phobia, but that is just my opinion.  I'm sorry if this offends anyone. 

NotKellyanne implied Diana was transgender specifically to get a rise out of her, and it worked. She got flustered and over the top denying it, and said "I'm a woman." Transgender women are women as much as cisgender, so drawing a distinction was gross, plus the fact that Diana was both offended at the implication and eager to distance herself from it was mean-spirited. A simple "I'm not, but I applaud the attitude" would've worked just fine. They were trying for "funny", but landed on "mean". 

 

Kellyanne Conway is Donald Trump's campaign manager turned counselor. This expy of her is extremely kind, in my opinion. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

Transgender women are women as much as cisgender, so drawing a distinction was gross, plus the fact that Diana was both offended at the implication and eager to distance herself from it was mean-spirited. A simple "I'm not, but I applaud the attitude" would've worked just fine. They were trying for "funny", but landed on "mean". 

What woman who was born with female genitalia wouldn't be offended at the implication that her features are such that she was probably born with male genitalia?  I think you can have no issue with transgender people, but still be a woman who doesn't want people suggesting you were living as a man at some point.  I didn't understand why the show chose to go there.   

I do like to imagine that Miriam Shor has to wear a neckbrace between takes given the gargantuan necklackes Diana wears. 

[Snarklepuss]

6 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

What woman who was born with female genitalia wouldn't be offended at the implication that her features are such that she was probably born with male genitalia?  I think you can have no issue with transgender people, but still be a woman who doesn't want people suggesting you were living as a man at some point.  I didn't understand why the show chose to go there.   

I do like to imagine that Miriam Shor has to wear a neckbrace between takes given the gargantuan necklackes Diana wears. 

Yeah, it wasn't a civil rights insult to transgendered people, but a possible insult to Diana's femininity and attractiveness as a woman, which I'm sure means a lot to her, and the suggestion that she looks like she could have once been a man is insulting to her.  Nothing wrong with that, I'd feel the same way if I were her!  LOL about the neck brace for the ginormous necklaces - I love them, BTW.  They get more outrageous every season and it's hysterically funny!

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, Snarklepuss said:

What's wrong with Hemmingway?

If you're talking about the writer, it has only one "m," for one thing. ;-)

[Snarklepuss]

1 minute ago, dubbel zout said:

If you're talking about the writer, it has only one "m," for one thing. ;-)

Damned carpel tunnel!  If anyone shouldn't make that mistake, it's me!