S12.E01: Pack Leaders

[mjc570]

Concerning Neville's post:

With respect, the fact is that I am a kind person who would never criticize someone (unreasonably) as in your child example, but that is not why I watch Face Off.  I watch it to admire the contestants' work, to see how experts achieve such amazing results.  If you want this to be a training or personal development show, then market it as such (like "America's Worst Cooks")  and take out the competitive elements.   There is certainly am audience for shows that is based on this -   I would love a show that was solely focused on Mr. Westmore mentoring a group of aspiring special effects make-up artists.  Again, though, although there was always somewhat of an element of contestant growth (hopefully), the Face Off that I  want to watch has contestants demonstrating creativity and expertise in meeting challenges.

This were-wolf episode was just painful.  I really think it was a mistake to have this season start so soon, it's hard to believe that with all the special effects folks out there, they couldn't come up with more skilled contestants.  Or, couldn't  there have been some extra mentoring so that a person who had never made a chest piece was not tasked with that precise activity. 

[Canada]

I lasted 10 minutes into this episode, then deleted it from my PVR.  The contestants were annoying, underwhelming, and untalented, and then they announced that it was going to be group challenges all season.  Delete.  Not interested anymore.

[starri]

I appreciate what Neville's saying, and I do GENUINELY like that even on the worst makeups, the judges always tend to give their critiques in the gentlest way possible.  But not only were the makeups pretty subpar, the contestants seemed snippier than normal, and I can forgive a lot if they are a bunch of lovely people.

Like, I can see people get stressed out as they get deeper into the season, but with the exception of Joe, who seemed somewhat mentally ill (he was on Laura's first season, and was the only contestant to actually quit that I can remember), none of them started from the first episode.  Even Adam, who was kind of a jerk by the end of last season, only really seemed to be unable to dial it down in his last episode.

[Mabinogia]

25 minutes ago, starri said:

But not only were the makeups pretty subpar, the contestants seemed snippier than normal, and I can forgive a lot if they are a bunch of lovely people.

This is where I'm at. I can handle some subpar work if I'm enjoying watching them work. I just didn't really enjoy watching these people work. Five minutes after the show ended I couldn't have picked a single one of these people out of a lineup.

I don't necessarily blame the contestants so much as this new "shop" format. Instead of building teamwork between the contestants I feel like it is pitting them against each other in a more competitive way than previous seasons. I feel like, with this two team format there is more strategizing and I don't watch this show to see people worrying about who is foreman, if their team can win and make them safe or if they will suffer because their team couldn't work together cohesively. Just let them focus on doing the work. I hope this is a one season only idea.

I wonder what they could have come up with if they'd each just had to do their own werewolf. If Loser girl didn't get stuck doing a chest piece and could do what she wanted maybe she'd still be there. Or someone on the other team might have gone home even because they weren't saved by everyone else on their team being strong.

I am not a fan of team challenges on these kind of shows. A whole season of teams might push me over the edge. At least I'll always have the All Star season.

[staphdude]

Given this is the first challenge and everyone is adapting to these circumstances I will give them the benefit of the doubt on the quality of the makeups. What I will not stand for is this ridiculous need to put someone in charge and then berate them for the failings of their teammates. If the older foreman was responsible for the chest piece that sent that young woman home then the foreman of the winning team should always be the winner on their team as he or she must have lead them to these outstanding designs. You can't always be everywhere during that process and losing the designer should have recognized the failing and done something other than leaving it out there for judging. Cover it with hair and the underlying poor sculpting forms a decent framework. Stop trying to create drama and a fall guy. As for the person leaving when the loser was announced...meh. There is too much forced empathy on the show. The wails of disbelief and cloying group hugs are unnecessary. I appreciate the camaraderie on the show and like that they help one another but it can end right there.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

My issue with Neville's comment (aside from "it's" instead of "its") is that there is a big difference between a five year old who has no training whatsoever scrawling with crayon and showing it to his mommy versus trained adults who are competing in what is supposed to be their area of expertise. Although I love the camaraderie of the Face Off contestants and the general non-bitchiness on the show, that doesn't mean that the contestants need to be coddled and handled with kid gloves. The fact that Neville compared them to five year olds is really insulting and patronizing. If he doesn't want people saying mean things about the contestants' work, then maybe they need to find contestants who are more capable because those werewolves were shite. I'm not going to pretend otherwise because I'm afraid I'll hurt their feelings.

I hate the team concept. I totally get that in the real world, a makeup or FX artist will most likely work with a team. My issue is that in order for me to accurately assess an artist's ability on a competition show like this (in order to determine a winner and a loser), I need to see how each person comes up with a concept and executes it. Between the team thing and how abysmal the first week's creations were, I might just skip the rest of this season. I'll give it another week or two but if things don't improve, I'll be fine not watching this season.

Edited June 29, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo
extraneous letter

[Reishe]

While I agree that Neville's example of a child wasn't the best, I think he was basically saying "don't be such a dick." It's hard, b/c I know a lot of people watch reality shows for the opportunity to tear the contestants to pieces in forums, and they consider that part of the fun. (I don't share that opinion.) Others subscribe to the philosophy that you shouldn't say anything in an anonymous forum that you wouldn't say to, say, the neighbor you have to see on a daily basis. I think Neville is asking for more of the latter. He's asking that we consider the humanity of the artists. There is more than one way to criticize. What we love about the judges is that they are perfectly fine with saying something didn't work, but they say it in a way that doesn't break down, but rather builds up. They don't say "this was talentless crap," they say "this didn't work, it should have been done in a different way, take that information and learn from it for next time."

As for the "shop foreman" business, it's an artificial construct and pretty out-of-place in this setting. It's not like electing a jury foreman. In a setting like a makeup shop, you work your way up to head of the team by serving on teams, by observing how leaders manage people/time/conflicts and how they allocate talent. The head of a shop has probably hired the team him or herself, and knows their strengths and weaknesses. Assembling a group of complete strangers and electing one leader doesn't endow them with the skill set. I think Ve was trying to make a teachable moment by calling out the Twisted Six leader on what the judges expect of a team leader, but I don't feel it is a reasonable expectation. It's nice that one contestant already ran his own shop and had the skills, but if you look at the fact that many of the contestants end up working for a lead makeup artist like Ve on her projects, the skills that are expected of them are those of a team member, someone who would work their way up to being lead makeup artist after paying their dues and learning the industry.

[Iguana]

Sorry if this is in the wrong thread, but is Previously.tv no longer covering Face Off?

[enoughcats]

Take a reread of what Neville said.  Then combine that with what we've read from former contestants about several things.

• judging takes much, much longer than what we see in the edited version
• Close up examination of the contestants' work takes much longer than we see.
• Close up examination is done so that the contestants can't hear what is said and only hear that part of it that's chosen for broadcast

Reading between the assorted lines, I think that the close up judgements are a lot more no holds barred, and that there has been and will continue to be a more measured, edited critique and that's all the audience is going to see.  Period. 

[sourpickles]

15 hours ago, Iguana said:

Sorry if this is in the wrong thread, but is Previously.tv no longer covering Face Off?

Well, yes they are since you are commenting here on a new episode....check your page settings, you might not see it on the home page straight away, but if you are signed up for the forum and all you should be good :).

[mjc570]

15 hours ago, Iguana said:

Sorry if this is in the wrong thread, but is Previously.tv no longer covering Face Off?

I think you are asking if they are providing recaps?  I think they have up to now. 

[SnarkyTart]

16 hours ago, Iguana said:

Sorry if this is in the wrong thread, but is Previously.tv no longer covering Face Off?

While they did provide recaps for seasons 1-11, it appears they're not doing recaps for this season.  That's happened with a few of my favorite shows.  I think it may be somewhat dependent on how much activity there is in a show's forum, and whether they have a recapper who volunteers to do a particular show or not.

[enoughcats]

The other question is  "Is Faceoff offering copies of the show in advance of the showing that the recap can be based on?"

[Iguana]

Thanks for the replies. I guess I wasn't clear that I was wondering if ptv was doing recaps of face off this season. As it's been more than five days since the ep aired and no sign  of a revap, it appears they aren't. Too bad as I enjoyed the commentary with visuals. 

[hincandenza]

1 hour ago, Iguana said:

Thanks for the replies. I guess I wasn't clear that I was wondering if ptv was doing recaps of face off this season. As it's been more than five days since the ep aired and no sign  of a revap, it appears they aren't. Too bad as I enjoyed the commentary with visuals. 

I agree, and thanks for asking.  I liked the recaps, especially that guy Monty's; he had some great lines and observations!

 

So, uh.  Yeah.  I'm with the lot of you, I just finished belatedly watching episode 1, and this was arguably the worst episode I've seen of this show.  I'd quote a bunch of great comments, but that'd get excessive; we all know what we saw.  I'll just chime in on the greatness of "Six Boobs" as a moniker, and my agreement that in this case the foreman should have gone home.  The woman- Laura?- was probably the least deserving of those 3 to go home.  The Zippy the Pinwolf head was almost admirably discomforting and non-mammalian which is on the other guy, and the foreman did a terrible job of leading, guiding, or organizing on time, theme, and details.  Seriously, "Six Boobs" spent time on that absurd boob setup (I'll wager money he owns a full body pillow with an anime character printed on it), did nothing to organize and monitor people, let time expire too easily, and the result was possibly the worst single group makeup this show has ever seen.  She may not have any more to offer, but Laura not doing good on the chest piece was not the issue tonight, and it's on Al that she was even doing that.  Then again, I can't figure out how six people only did that tiny amount of work, and came up short on painting and hair.

Hell, as others have noted, just calling your team the "Twisted Six" or whatever was proof of a fundamental inability to plan ahead.

I also agree with the foreman gimmick in general being kind of weird; if these people don't have pre-existing working relationships, having a rotating arbitrary foreman seems unnecessary, especially since they aren't going to be particular responsible for either success or victory. It's too late now, but maybe if they'd done something like have the judges pick two stand-out artists each week- even if on the same team- and they are the forepeople for the next week who will pick their teams in standard schoolyard style.  At least that way you get some movement of people and different groupings, which is going to be forced anyway once a couple more people go.

[starri]

If they were so set on this "dueling special effects shops" format, why not have someone with actual industry experience who isn't competing in the role of foreman, like in the Return of the Champions season?

Oh, right, because there wouldn't be enough drama.

[slaterain]

4 hours ago, starri said:

If they were so set on this "dueling special effects shops" format, why not have someone with actual industry experience who isn't competing in the role of foreman, like in the Return of the Champions season?

Oh, right, because there wouldn't be enough drama.

That would have been a better idea!!! They kind of did that with the Mentor season but think it could have been clearer with shop setup. 

I also miss some of the quick challenges that they used to have before the main challenge. Not every week but I always enjoyed seeing how creative they could get in a short bit of time. And it also seemed to be a good ice breaker. the contestants get a quick hit and look at the competition and we get to see a bit of their styles before going into the team setup. This is still an individual challenge at the end and I want to know more on the individuals than the shop setup will probably allow. 

[Cowgirl]

Yup, this is my favorite show on t.v., but you can add me to the long list of those who hate the shop concept.  Don't mess with a good thing, Face off!  (The good thing being prior seasons' structures, not this season's.)

I finally figured out who the losing wolf looked like:  a Beagle Boy, minus the longer black ears and blackened eye areas. 

[enoughcats]

2 hours ago, Cowgirl said:

 a Beagle Boy, minus the longer black ears and blackened eye areas.

If we see some white duck feathers, we'll know we aren't alone in our memories.

[SnarkyTart]

10 hours ago, slaterain said:

I also miss some of the quick challenges that they used to have before the main challenge. Not every week but I always enjoyed seeing how creative they could get in a short bit of time.

I was thinking the same thing after this werewolf episode.   I enjoy the quick challenges a lot, and they give the audience a clearer idea of each individual's style and capabilities. 

[sourpickles]

I've gotta go with werewolves being too advanced for the first challenge.  And I'm looking up Beagle Boy as we speak.  Either I'm really old, or too young....(wouldn't that be a change......)

OMG F'N DUCKTALES and stuff!  I remember now!  My brothers watched this!  And they are remaking it.....

[Richness]

*sigh* All teams, all the time. The one aspect I dislike about reality show competitions is now baked into every episode. I didn't like the teams of two veterans in the previous season either. It could have been different if it was a pre-existing team, like an existing make-up studio that was hinted at, but not this BS.

 

I'm also not sure if I like the introduction of the role of foreperson. Sure, it more closely mirrors how a real make-up shop might perform, but it seems to be adding quite a bit of gamanship to the show. People have often claimed that Face Off functions as an extended interview process for people breaking into the business. If so, the foreperson role adds even more weight by seeing how different people handle a leadership role. However, I don't think I like it in general.

 

I wanted to like the Twisted Six for doing non-traditional werewolves, but their designs were horrible. The six boobs on the Alpha was just sad. I was thinking Al was a fabulous older gay from the way he dressed, but no self-respecting gay puts six boobs on their creation. Nor should an adult straight man either. All I could think about is this Furry Force video. (It's a very vulgar NSFW video, and not for children, so don't view it if you're the least bit prudish or squeamish.)

 

While Laura might have some other talents, it certainly isn't enough to win Face Off. Therefore, I'm glad the judges put her out of our misery now instead of dragging it on for a few episodes. I nearly rolled my eyes right out of my head when Phil made the real Jersey Shore comment. I was prepared to hate him for the rest of the season, but ended up being glad that he was safe from elimination for doing the best job on the team. While Al definitely mismanaged the team, and think the six boob concept was horrible, I'm glad he didn't go home.

 

The Ethereal Effects weren't much better. (And was it my imagination or did the title graphics guy spell it "Affects" earlier?) The eyes on one stood out so much, I thought I was looking at a plastic Halloween mask for children.

 

While I'm glad to have Face Off back, I'm not very hopeful for this season with the two team concept. With them starting so early, it looks like this is turning into a summer  series to waste away its golden years.

[diebartdie]

That video was amazing.

[CherZ]

I lasted half the episode, realized I wasn't enjoying it and turned it off.

Damn you Face Off - you've ruined a brilliant concept. And from what I can see they might be going for drama instead of talent. That would be the "ahem" silver bullet for them. I'm not interested in this.

[sourpickles]

New epi airing right now but the Gherkin has been watching that last one with me.  He's been watching this show almost his whole life.  He says "wow, that guy should go home, he's AWFUL with people and didn't support his team.  At all."  When Laura went home "WHAT? why would she go home, she didn't have anything to do with it!"  He's nine.  Just saying.  I'm thinking he knows something we don't.

[SnarkyTart]

On ‎6‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 11:45 AM, diebartdie said:

Well well well ... I follow Melissa Ebbe on FB and she just shared this post from Neville....

I've been mulling this over ever since I read it, and my initial reaction hasn't changed.  Sorry if this is blunt, but Neville Page can bite me.  These artist-contestants aren't children still learning to master fine motor skills, like tying their shoes.  These are aspiring professionals, hoping to gain recognition and employment in their chosen field.  The analogy fails.

What really set me off was Neville's attitude towards the fans of the show.  Most of the disappointed or negative comments are coming from people who've loved this show and watched it loyally for 11 seasons.   We're not haters or internet trolls, and don't deserve to be rebuked for our criticisms.  I've seen other shows go down the path of condemning their longtime fans for being unhappy with a show's direction.  It never ends well for the show.

Neville, rather than wagging your finger and trying to shame fans, maybe you should consider appreciating your audience for all the years they've spent watching your show.  Whether you believe our opinions have any merit or not, the reality is that we're the experts on what we enjoy watching.  Oddly enough, that has a direct correlation with ratings.

[Jamoche]

On 6/15/2017 at 10:54 AM, Maelstrom said:

The omega (WTF kind of terminology is that for werewolves, anyway?!)

Don't ask. Seriously. Don't google, either. I just caught the beginning of the rerun tonight, and noped out just to avoid having to listen to alpha/beta/omega all ep. Sounds like that was the right choice :)

[Richness]

One other thing I forgot to mention: Didn't one of the contestants mention that he had worked on Teen Wolf? Did he end up on EE Team? Talk about a subtle benefit for the first challenge.

[starri]

I don't think that would have given him any particular advantage.  None of the makeups looked much like the aesthetic Teen Wolf uses for its wolves (make them beastly, but still hot).  At most, it might have helped him with sculpting, molding, and application, but all the contestants should have experience with that.

[enoughcats]

6 hours ago, starri said:

all the contestants should have experience with that.

love the way you worded that. 

[sourpickles]

16 hours ago, SnarkyTart said:

I've been mulling this over ever since I read it, and my initial reaction hasn't changed.  Sorry if this is blunt, but Neville Page can bite me.

One thousand likes for this post, only quoting the beginning.  Sometimes my brain moves way faster than my fingers and I can't quite articulate what I want.  This post said it! 

[Cowgirl]

On 6/19/2017 at 8:12 PM, sourpickles said:

I've gotta go with werewolves being too advanced for the first challenge.  And I'm looking up Beagle Boy as we speak.  Either I'm really old, or too young....(wouldn't that be a change......)

OMG F'N DUCKTALES and stuff!  I remember now!  My brothers watched this!  And they are remaking it.....

 

I'm old -- I will have to google what they looked like on Duck Tales.  I never saw that show.  -- I know the Beagle Boys from Donald Duck comics in the 1970's. 

16 hours ago, Richness said:

One other thing I forgot to mention: Didn't one of the contestants mention that he had worked on Teen Wolf? Did he end up on EE Team? Talk about a subtle benefit for the first challenge.

I forgot about that! Before they announced that it was a werewolf challenge.  Sad that it didn't help to make these werewolves look any better.

[sourpickles]

4 minutes ago, Cowgirl said:

I'm old -- I will have to google what they looked like on Duck Tales.  I never saw that show.  -- I know the Beagle Boys from Donald Duck comics in the 1970's. 

So, possibly older than me then?  What A Relief!  Either I'm clueless or you haven't been commenting much, hope all is well, and you can reference the comics to the cartoons on YouTube.  You'll love it.  Clearly, it would have been more entertaining than this episode.............

[enoughcats]

Look, children, my Beagle Boys go back to comic books, and to Uncle Scrooge.  Uncle Scrooge had a huge vault, filled with money and he loved to dive into his money. 

The Beagle Boys, being recently out of jail, spent many many pages of comics, trying to break into the vault, and appropriate Uncle Scrooge's money.  
Donald Duck and the nephews were there, too, but the Boys vs. Uncle Scrooge were my go to comics whenever I was sick and Daddy would stop at the news stand (ask somebody old what that is) and buy me my favorite ten cent comic. 

I remember Queen Elizabeth's coronation on tape delay, just to make you feel a lot younger.

I think the oldest memory I have of masks in movies would be a Dracula movie.  Special effects: Forbidden Planet. 

(Little would i have realized that an earlier Westmore was Joan Crawford's make up man late in her career. )

[aradia22]

I totally forgot this show was coming back so soon but my DVR remembered for me. Cutting to the chase...

Ethereal FX: The alpha looked bad. It looked like a clown demon. Very little wolf. The beta (female) looked better. Kind of beat up and rough around the edges but the sculpting was better. The omega... undecided. It looked fake but somehow better than the alpha. Good Lord. I was waiting for Glen to start in on anatomy. I do think they went a long way towards improving all three with the paint. 

Sinister 6: First of all, I forget the team name but don't put a number in there because you're going to be getting eliminated. That's inevitable. I thought the white wolf was a mistake. Their work did look more mask-like because it didn't have the benefit of the paint job or as much texturing in the sculpt so it looked too smooth... like an alien makeup. I did like their lady wolf. More stylized than realistic but it looked like a cool cat/wolf hybrid. But that chest piece... this is not Total Recall. What up with all the human anatomy breasts? The second one looked like... a sad dog. It was like some Neverending Story 80's movie SFX makeup stuff. Kind of like a friendly bear with scars. Ohhh boy. Speaking of bears, dafuq happened with the third one? The less said the better.

Shallow thought... I hope the cute guy, you know the one, sticks around. Otherwise, I don't have any feelings about these people yet. 

Edited June 22, 2017 by aradia22

[enoughcats]

On 6/21/2017 at 9:59 PM, aradia22 said:

Sinister 6: First of all, I forget the team name

It's just too darned easy to come up with a snarky adjective to preceed "Four".

[Ms Lark]

Late to the party. Didn't realize it was back on again already. What!! No wonder there's a shortage of good contestants. Agree, Foreman Six-Boobs should have gone home. I think it's getting pretty clear why, after all his years in the field, he doesn't have his own shop. (Sorry, Neville, I tell it like I see it.)

[magpye29]

On 6/16/2017 at 9:40 PM, staphdude said:

There is too much forced empathy on the show. The wails of disbelief and cloying group hugs are unnecessary.

I so agree with this!  They know somebody's going home, and seriously, they're all happy it's not them, but why act like it's a surprise that someone's going home?  That's the premise of the show, people!  SOMEONE is going home every week.  Also, if they're so empathetic, they know it's either contestant A or contestant B.  So when they rend their garments and gnash their teeth because contestant A got cut, how is contestant B supposed to feel?  Would they rather it had been B?  It reminds me of a song in The Mikado:  

"See how the Fates their gifts allot,
For A is happy — B is not.
Yet B is worthy, I dare say,
Of more prosperity than A!....

If I were Fortune — which I'm not —
B should enjoy A's happy lot,
And A should die in miserie —
That is, assuming I am B."

Basically, someone's got to go, folks!

[enoughcats]

On 6/16/2017 at 0:17 AM, Midnight Sun said:

On 6/15/2017 at 7:06 PM, diebartdie said:

Wanted to show yall this, its my comment on the Face Off FB page plus the Face Off response...

 

 

I'm not very optimistic about Face Off's "growing pains" reply - what the hell are they trying to say?  We all have growing pains - doesn't mean we have to act like jerkwads.  Damn it, don't ruin this show for me, people!

This really bothers me.

"Any new team" can have growing pains and survive because they know there's a future. 
You take the growing pains out the playing field when you knock a team down by 20% or 25% of their personnel.  The killing of ten percent is the origin of decimate, and decimating an army, a city was a terrible thing.  Not that this is anywhere as serious, but that's a lot of a team to chop off.