Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Eyes High]

37 minutes ago, Edith said:

Yeah, I quote the /Jorywea78 in another post, but this particularly comes from friki sources. That’s why I heard the last part of the episode first, that’s the one when he or Javi, when he is present, give the real spoilers. 

The Jory part is the one with the three riders.

Like Unsullied in the Dragonpit? We already knew that, thanks to the leaked Unsullied extra group picture. Personally, I'm not convinced that Javi knows much of anything, either. Most of his "inside information" about Spain is stuff that everyone at /Freefolk had already learned from Twitter folks in Seville on the ground. He claimed that he knew which actors were there to film and which weren't...when Twitter folks had already figured that out just by the cast's comings and goings. So yeah, I'm not buying that Javi has anything of value to contribute.

It seems like Frikidoctor got some information, and we're not clear how much, from /Jorywea78, who makes up the most outrageous bullshit and then claims that "sources" told him. As a refresher, /Jorywea78 took the S7 spoilers from Lads, added his own ridiculous fanfic flourishes and tried to pass them off as a complete leak of S7. Anyone who pays that guy any attention deserves what they get.

The only two people who have proven themselves to have inside information for S8, other than those who have been filming videos and snapping pictures of the sets from a distance like A_red_Priestess and Davynightorr, are /WatchersOnMyBalls (who's long gone) and /BoatsexBaby. That's it. I'm pretty sure that /Frikidoctor doesn't know anything at this point that /Freefolkers haven't learned for themselves. Maybe just before S8 airs he'll have something.

ETA: Aaaaand now /GettingtheBetsyWetsy is back, claiming that they have confirmation that what they were told is "100% correct." (/GettingtheBetsyWetsy confidently predicted that Sansa died at Winterfell, and then, in a later post, that Emilia would be in Seville. Of course, Emilia wasn't in Seville, and Sophie was.)

Edited May 31, 2018 by Eyes High

[GrailKing]

[Edith]

[WindyNights]

14 hours ago, Eyes High said:

If you skip the part where you actually address the question and go straight to talking about how awful this would be for Sansa, you seem to be conceding the point. 

Well, no. Book Sansa has been disinherited. 

I actually agree that it would be very weird for the future of the Stark and Lannister houses to rest on the shoulders of Sansa and Tyrion, a "dewolfed" Stark who doesn't look like a Stark and a Lannister who in the books doesn't look like a Lannister (and who may not even be a Lannister at all if he's in fact Aerys' bastard), given all of GRRM's twittering in ASOIAF about distinctive house looks (and what he did to the historical would-be Targ heirs who weren't lucky enough to get the silver hair and purple eyes). I doubt that is what will happen, however. The Stark line will likely be continued by someone who actually looks like a Stark (Jon or Arya), and despite some fans' fantasies about a Reynes/Tarbecks-type calamity, the Lannister house in the books at least isn't going anywhere, thanks to the Lannisport Lannisters.

I doubt we're ever going to find out anything about any of the Stark siblings' future children, other than maybe Jon if he has a kid with Dany in S8. Unless GRRM told D&D about the Stark siblings' possible kids, and I doubt he did, I suspect D&D would probably see getting into next generation Starklings as stepping on GRRM's toes. I also suspect that GRRM will guard any post-ASOIAF canon jealously, as is frankly his right.

Short of a massive postwar time jump, the most we will know is whether or not Arya and Sansa pair off with anyone around the end of the war, and where they and the other surviving major characters end up.

Emilia told press at the gala the night before last that she'd be heading out on a plane to Belfast in the morning. Finally!

NCW did an interview where he said the following about Season 8:

This is meaningful because NCW unlike many actors is not shy about making it clear when he's unhappy with the show's direction, as he did in interviews about Season 7. He's also a big fan of Jaime and of Jaime/Brienne. That he's so openly pleased about S8 means three things to me:

1. Jaime and Brienne bang.

2. Jaime's storyline has a conclusion worthy of his arc (probably a heroic death).

3. S8 has a genuinely good, satisfying ending, not some random WTFness.

Can't complain with any of this.

NCW also doesn't like Daenerys. 

 

Sansa actually hasn't been disinherited from Winterfell from what we know in the books and Jon could always reinstate her place in the inheritance.

On top of that, the show has made Sansa the Lady of Winterfell so unless she dies, it's going to stay with her and her line.

[WindyNights]

5 hours ago, Wouter said:

Tywin's line would still die out if Tyrion is actually Aerys' bastard.

And if Sansa ends up married to Tyrion (for real), it wouldn't necessarily be for Winterfell (which may be left for Bran, or Arya). Tyrion is heir of Casterly Rock, and if he is Targaryen bastard he would have a shot at the throne. Imagine Sansa taking both through Tyrion (but not Winterfell), then it would be the opposite of Tywin's vision and Cersei would probably think about that prophecy again.

As for Sansa and Ramsay - D&D took a decision to move her into Jeyne's storyline. It may not have much, if any, signifance for the end game, considering it didn't happen and won't happen in the books.

That would probably be for the night shoots?

I wonder if the fighting is against the Lannisters/Euron/Golden Company, or against the Night King. We still don't know.

Bran's infertile according to Ned plus Bran doesn't want it. I don't see why Sansa would give up Winterfell to Arya when Sansa's ahead in the line of succession.

 

GRRM has also called Tywin Tyrion's father. 

Tyrion is Tywin's son.

5. Since all of their mothers died, who gave Jon Snow, Daenerys Targaryen and Tyrion Lannister their names?

GRRM: Mothers can name a child before birth, or during, or after, even while they are dying. Dany was most like named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, Jon by Ned.

[WindyNights]

This is some of the stuff that Nikolaj has said about Daenerys: 

 

HBO: Which character or being scares you the most? 

NIKOLAJ COSTER-WALDAU: Melisandre the Red priestess—she's a scary woman. There's also something about that type of power that Daenerys has. Most people believe she's doing the right thing, but she's burning people alive. She's got a chip on her shoulder. I don't want her to come across the Narrow Sea. She's going to burn thousands and thousands and thousands of people and have that self-righteous smirk on her face the whole time.

------

Though he may be headed north after breaking up with his sister/lover Queen Cersei, Coster-Waldau doesn’t see Jaime rushing to Daenerys’s side. “I don’t think he’s ever going to share his brother’s infatuation with this woman,” he told InStyle. “He’s not a fan. If you watch all your friends and the people you work with being burned alive like he did, that’s going to be difficult to kind of go, ‘I’m sure you’re going to bring a lot of peace and prosperity to this region but you also just killed 10,000 men in one go and that’s f—d up.’”

According to Coster-Waldau, Jaime isn’t the only one who will have a dramatic reaction to the news that Jon is a Targaryen. “How do you think they’re going to react when he finds out that he’s actually the rightful heir to the Iron Throne? I mean, he’s now a threat to [Daenerys]. He’s first in line now. The whole thing she built her life on is now a lie,” he told InStyle. “She doesn’t seem that stable to me, that girl.”

[YaddaYadda]

3 hours ago, WindyNights said:

According to Coster-Waldau, Jaime isn’t the only one who will have a dramatic reaction to the news that Jon is a Targaryen. “How do you think they’re going to react when he finds out that he’s actually the rightful heir to the Iron Throne? I mean, he’s now a threat to [Daenerys]. He’s first in line now. The whole thing she built her life on is now a lie,” he told InStyle. “She doesn’t seem that stable to me, that girl.”

Making abstraction of his comment on Dany's stability, Jaime's arc in the book, him thinking back on Rhaegar and how he thinks of him as the rightful heir, as well as the murders of Aegon and Rhaenys, it's easy to believe that he will follow Jon over Dany once he finds out he is Rhaegar's son on the show.

[Eyes High]

10 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Sansa actually hasn't been disinherited from Winterfell from what we know in the books

The books make it quite clear that she has been:

Quote

"Young, and a king," he said. "A king must have an heir. If I should die in my next battle, the kingdom must not die with me. By law Sansa is next in line of succession, so Winterfell and the north would pass to her." His mouth tightened. "To her, and her lord husband. Tyrion Lannister. I cannot allow that. I will not allow that. That dwarf must never have the north."

"No," Catelyn agreed. "You must name another heir, until such time as Jeyne gives you a son." 

I'm not sure why you think Sansa hasn't been disinherited. She has. Robb wouldn't have left any wiggle room, either: "That dwarf must never have the north."

It's one of GRRM's "Be careful what you wish for" moments. Sansa laments in ASOS that everyone only wants her for her claim and no one will marry her for love. Well, lucky girl, the problem has been solved!

Quote

Jon could always reinstate her place in the inheritance.

Why would he do that once he learns--and I have no doubt that he will learn--that it was Robb's last wish to remove Sansa from the succession? Robb didn't disinherit Sansa for arbitrary reasons, he did it to keep Winterfell out of Lannister hands. Since Jon in ADWD thinks that he wishes to bring down death and destruction on House Lannister, he'd probably be entirely on board with Robb's decision. And really, given how Jon feels about Sansa and Robb, if he had to choose between Sansa's wishes and Robb's, Robb would win out every time.

Book Jon only vouches for Sansa's right to Winterfell in ADWD because 1) he doesn't know about the will (yet) and 2) he's trying to get Stannis off his back about claiming Winterfell. And even Stannis, who's not even a Northman, is appalled at the idea of Tyrion ending up with Winterfell, which gives you some idea about how the rest of the North feels about the prospect.

Quote

On top of that, the show has made Sansa the Lady of Winterfell so unless she dies, it's going to stay with her and her line

GRRM has said that he doesn't know what the show is doing with Sansa's storyline, and Sansa is only Lady of Winterfell through a spectacular series of show-only contrivances: marrying Ramsay without a proper annulment, being passed over for Queen in the North despite being Ned Stark's legitimate daughter (when the rationale for making Jon KITN is his Stark blood), the KITN and Lord of Winterfell titles being separated, Bran renouncing his claim to being Lord of Winterfell, etc. etc.

It seems likely that GRRM originally planned an ending without Sansa as the outline hints, and he has said that he intends to stick to that ending, so Sansa isn't going to end up with Winterfell in the books. That makes a lot of sense given that Sansa lacks the "Stark look" that GRRM is so obsessed with. That she is Lady of Winterfell in the show is no more predictive of the books than her marriage to Ramsay.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Eyes High

[whateverdgaf]

28 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Why would he do that once he learns--and I have no doubt that he will learn--that it was Robb's last wish to remove Sansa from the succession? Robb didn't disinherit Sansa for arbitrary reasons, he did it to keep Winterfell out of Lannister hands. Since Jon in ADWD thinks that he wishes to bring down death and destruction on House Lannister, he'd probably be entirely on board with Robb's decision. And really, given how Jon feels about Sansa and Robb, if he had to choose between Sansa's wishes and Robb's, Robb would win out every time.

Robb removed Sansa because she was wed to Tyrion. If Sansa's marriage to Tyrion no longer holds (which her marriage to Bolton in the show and engagement to Harry the Heir in the books make seems probable) then Jon would have no reason to think Robb would disagree with any decision to reinstate Sansa in the line of succession. Robb didn't disinherit her out of spite or dislike, he had no vendetta against Sansa personally. If her rights could be restored to her, why would Jon think that Robb would wish for her to be deprived of that?

On something completely unrelated, I wonder if the reason why the Valonqar was left from the show was because there was a twist on it that would be too convoluted to reveal in the show, so they decided to cut it completely. In that case, with all these spoilers about King's Landing, I would love for Cersei's death to be a result of the smallfolk and Lannister soldiers. Ideally, she would be trying to flee to and leaves the smallfolk and Lannisters to hold off Dany's army, sacrificing them to make her escape. Only for her guards to turn on her. They kill her and cut off her head. They then present Cersei's head to Daenerys at the city gates. It is both a welcome gift; here is the head of your enemy, you are queen now, and a warning. The smallfolk are sick of being mistreated and this is now what happens to rulers who abuse them.

[YaddaYadda]

10 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Sansa actually hasn't been disinherited from Winterfell from what we know in the books and Jon could always reinstate her place in the inheritance.

Rickon is alive in the books and the mountain clans know that Bran is alive. This mostly throws whatever plans Littlefinger has for Sansa and the north up in the air. I'm assuming he is planning on revealing at some point that the Arya who is married to Ramsay is in fact an imposter. Jeyne Poole was kept in one of his brothels after all. He has no idea that Bran and Rickon survived the sack of Winterfell.

[GraceK]

5 hours ago, WindyNights said:

This is some of the stuff that Nikolaj has said about Daenerys: 

 

HBO: Which character or being scares you the most? 

NIKOLAJ COSTER-WALDAU: Melisandre the Red priestess—she's a scary woman. There's also something about that type of power that Daenerys has. Most people believe she's doing the right thing, but she's burning people alive. She's got a chip on her shoulder. I don't want her to come across the Narrow Sea. She's going to burn thousands and thousands and thousands of people and have that self-righteous smirk on her face the whole time.

------

Though he may be headed north after breaking up with his sister/lover Queen Cersei, Coster-Waldau doesn’t see Jaime rushing to Daenerys’s side. “I don’t think he’s ever going to share his brother’s infatuation with this woman,” he told InStyle. “He’s not a fan. If you watch all your friends and the people you work with being burned alive like he did, that’s going to be difficult to kind of go, ‘I’m sure you’re going to bring a lot of peace and prosperity to this region but you also just killed 10,000 men in one go and that’s f—d up.’”

According to Coster-Waldau, Jaime isn’t the only one who will have a dramatic reaction to the news that Jon is a Targaryen. “How do you think they’re going to react when he finds out that he’s actually the rightful heir to the Iron Throne? I mean, he’s now a threat to [Daenerys]. He’s first in line now. The whole thing she built her life on is now a lie,” he told InStyle. “She doesn’t seem that stable to me, that girl.”

Maybe if Dany sucks his dick like Cersei does he will get over it?

Yeah he’s entitled to that opinion but his self righteous moralizing about Danys character when his character has been up the ass of Actual despot who has done untold horror and who IS actually a villain is hard to take seriously.

And Dany still hasn’t shoved little boys out of windows or killed her family members either. So yeah. 

Lol that remark about Danys smirk has to be irony right? I mean, has even he looked at Cersei’s face at all? Smug smirking is her default expression.

Edited June 1, 2018 by GraceK

[Eyes High]

27 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

Robb removed Sansa because she was wed to Tyrion. If Sansa's marriage to Tyrion no longer holds (which her marriage to Bolton in the show and engagement to Harry the Heir in the books make seems probable

The Ramsay marriage was done to slot Sansa into the Northern storyline, and GRRM has made it clear that Sansa doesn't belong there, to the extent that he passive-aggressively released the new Alayne chapter before Season 5 aired. 

As for Harry the Heir, Sansa can't marry Harry the Heir until Tyrion is dead, which Littlefinger and Sansa both acknowledge. There is no realistic possibility of an annulment, as they both know (because if there was, Littlefinger wouldn't be counting on Tyrion's death), and it's impossible to fake Tyrion's death, as the would-be bounty claimers are discovering. That marriage isn't going anywhere in the books.

Quote

then Jon would have no reason to think Robb would disagree with any decision to reinstate Sansa in the line of succession

Yes, but that's the point. If Sansa's marriage to Tyrion just conveniently goes away, then Jon could just use that as an excuse to disregard Robb's will and graciously make way for Sansa on the basis that the conditions under which Robb made the will no longer apply. Where's the drama or angst in that? It would relieve Jon of a very difficult decision. However, the continuing marriage would force Jon's hand by forcing him to make a decision on whether or not to accept Robb's wishes that he should be the heir to the North as binding on him, even if it screws over Sansa.

And this is what I don't get. GRRM married Sansa off to Tyrion at least in part to accomplish specific plot goals: Robb disinheriting Sansa, Sansa being protected from being married off by Lysa and then Littlefinger, etc. Arguing that it could be undone by this or that mechanism is completely missing the point in my opinion. GRRM went to a lot of trouble to make that marriage and the consequences (Sansa's disinheritance, Sansa's inability to remarry, etc.) happen. Do you seriously think he's just going to undo all of his hard work?

Quote

On something completely unrelated, I wonder if the reason why the Valonqar was left from the show was because there was a twist on it that would be too convoluted to reveal in the show, so they decided to cut it completely.

Hot take: they cut it because the Valonqar prophecy is dumb and everyone knows it.

Serious take: I think there are two possible reasons they cut it, just as there are two possible reasons they cut most of the prophecies in the show.

1. It gives away too much, or

2. It doesn't match up with what actually happens, except maybe in a very broad or even abstract sense, so fans would be confused.

Quote

Rickon is alive in the books and the mountain clans know that Bran is alive. This mostly throws whatever plans Littlefinger has for Sansa and the north up in the air. I'm assuming he is planning on revealing at some point that the Arya who is married to Ramsay is in fact an imposter. Jeyne Poole was kept in one of his brothels after all. He has no idea that Bran and Rickon survived the sack of Winterfell.

Littlefinger also has no idea that Sansa has been disinherited. He's spinning romantic visions of Sansa winning back her birthright while completely unaware that Robb stripped her of it.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Eyes High

[shireenbamfatheon]

5 hours ago, WindyNights said:

This is some of the stuff that Nikolaj has said about Daenerys: 

 

HBO: Which character or being scares you the most? 

NIKOLAJ COSTER-WALDAU: Melisandre the Red priestess—she's a scary woman. There's also something about that type of power that Daenerys has. Most people believe she's doing the right thing, but she's burning people alive. She's got a chip on her shoulder. I don't want her to come across the Narrow Sea. She's going to burn thousands and thousands and thousands of people and have that self-righteous smirk on her face the whole time.

------

Though he may be headed north after breaking up with his sister/lover Queen Cersei, Coster-Waldau doesn’t see Jaime rushing to Daenerys’s side. “I don’t think he’s ever going to share his brother’s infatuation with this woman,” he told InStyle. “He’s not a fan. If you watch all your friends and the people you work with being burned alive like he did, that’s going to be difficult to kind of go, ‘I’m sure you’re going to bring a lot of peace and prosperity to this region but you also just killed 10,000 men in one go and that’s f—d up.’”

According to Coster-Waldau, Jaime isn’t the only one who will have a dramatic reaction to the news that Jon is a Targaryen. “How do you think they’re going to react when he finds out that he’s actually the rightful heir to the Iron Throne? I mean, he’s now a threat to [Daenerys]. He’s first in line now. The whole thing she built her life on is now a lie,” he told InStyle. “She doesn’t seem that stable to me, that girl.”

I love Nikolaj ?

[whateverdgaf]

34 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

I love Nikolaj ?

It's great how into the show he is, and how much thought he gives to the characters. I'm so glad he thinks the ending is satisfying.

[shireenbamfatheon]

2 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

It's great how into the show he is, and how much thought he gives to the characters. I'm so glad he thinks the ending is satisfying.

He's also one of the more candid actors on the show, so if he says the ending is satisfying I'm inclined to believe him. When he was asked about the multiple endings rumor, he was all "You really think they'd do that? You think they'd waste that much money? I think it sounds absurd." Nikolaj's great.

Edited June 1, 2018 by shireenbamfatheon
grammar

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

He's also one of the more candid actors on the show, so if he says the ending is satisfying I'm inclined to believe him. When he was asked about the multiple endings rumors, he was all "You really think they'd do that? You think they'd waste that much money? I think it sounds absurd." Nikolaj's great.

Absolutely. If NCW likes the ending, I think it will be good.

NCW said in another interview that S8 will have even more callbacks to previous seasons than S7, so that’s something to look forward to as well.

[WindyNights]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

The books make it quite clear that she has been:

I'm not sure why you think Sansa hasn't been disinherited. She has. Robb wouldn't have left any wiggle room, either: "That dwarf must never have the north."

It's one of GRRM's "Be careful what you wish for" moments. Sansa laments in ASOS that everyone only wants her for her claim and no one will marry her for love. Well, lucky girl, the problem has been solved!

Why would he do that once he learns--and I have no doubt that he will learn--that it was Robb's last wish to remove Sansa from the succession? Robb didn't disinherit Sansa for arbitrary reasons, he did it to keep Winterfell out of Lannister hands. Since Jon in ADWD thinks that he wishes to bring down death and destruction on House Lannister, he'd probably be entirely on board with Robb's decision. And really, given how Jon feels about Sansa and Robb, if he had to choose between Sansa's wishes and Robb's, Robb would win out every time.

Book Jon only vouches for Sansa's right to Winterfell in ADWD because 1) he doesn't know about the will (yet) and 2) he's trying to get Stannis off his back about claiming Winterfell. And even Stannis, who's not even a Northman, is appalled at the idea of Tyrion ending up with Winterfell, which gives you some idea about how the rest of the North feels about the prospect.

GRRM has said that he doesn't know what the show is doing with Sansa's storyline, and Sansa is only Lady of Winterfell through a spectacular series of show-only contrivances: marrying Ramsay without a proper annulment, being passed over for Queen in the North despite being Ned Stark's legitimate daughter (when the rationale for making Jon KITN is his Stark blood), the KITN and Lord of Winterfell titles being separated, Bran renouncing his claim to being Lord of Winterfell, etc. etc.

It seems likely that GRRM originally planned an ending without Sansa as the outline hints, and he has said that he intends to stick to that ending, so Sansa isn't going to end up with Winterfell in the books. That makes a lot of sense given that Sansa lacks the "Stark look" that GRRM is so obsessed with. That she is Lady of Winterfell in the show is no more predictive of the books than her marriage to Ramsay.

Haven't you been one of the posters adamant that the characters will end in the same place in the show as the books?

[WindyNights]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

The Ramsay marriage was done to slot Sansa into the Northern storyline, and GRRM has made it clear that Sansa doesn't belong there, to the extent that he passive-aggressively released the new Alayne chapter before Season 5 aired. 

As for Harry the Heir, Sansa can't marry Harry the Heir until Tyrion is dead, which Littlefinger and Sansa both acknowledge. There is no realistic possibility of an annulment, as they both know (because if there was, Littlefinger wouldn't be counting on Tyrion's death), and it's impossible to fake Tyrion's death, as the would-be bounty claimers are discovering. That marriage isn't going anywhere in the books.

Yes, but that's the point. If Sansa's marriage to Tyrion just conveniently goes away, then Jon could just use that as an excuse to disregard Robb's will and graciously make way for Sansa on the basis that the conditions under which Robb made the will no longer apply. Where's the drama or angst in that? It would relieve Jon of a very difficult decision. However, the continuing marriage would force Jon's hand by forcing him to make a decision on whether or not to accept Robb's wishes that he should be the heir to the North as binding on him, even if it screws over Sansa.

And this is what I don't get. GRRM married Sansa off to Tyrion at least in part to accomplish specific plot goals: Robb disinheriting Sansa, Sansa being protected from being married off by Lysa and then Littlefinger, etc. Arguing that it could be undone by this or that mechanism is completely missing the point in my opinion. GRRM went to a lot of trouble to make that marriage and the consequences (Sansa's disinheritance, Sansa's inability to remarry, etc.) happen. Do you seriously think he's just going to undo all of his hard work?

Hot take: they cut it because the Valonqar prophecy is dumb and everyone knows it.

Serious take: I think there are two possible reasons they cut it, just as there are two possible reasons they cut most of the prophecies in the show.

1. It gives away too much, or

2. It doesn't match up with what actually happens, except maybe in a very broad or even abstract sense, so fans would be confused.

Littlefinger also has no idea that Sansa has been disinherited. He's spinning romantic visions of Sansa winning back her birthright while completely unaware that Robb stripped her of it.

That's an interpretation. GRRM very well could have released that Alayna chapter as a reminder that Sansa will be nowhere near Ramsay. (The plan is still for her to go North)

If LF produces Tysha then Sansa's marriage to Tyrion becomes invalid. And according to GRRM, we'll find out where whores go in TWOW so it seems likely we'll be seeing her again.

Robb's will also doesn't matter if no one can enforce it. If LF is bringing the Vale army with Sansa to the North then Sansa+Harry+LF can use Renly's argument that might makes right.

And this is what GRRM has said about inheritance in Westeros: 

GRRM confirms that Westerosi inheritance law is much about "might makes right" at the end of the day

GRRM says that there is no "rule of law" in Westeros, and that it is very much more a "rule of men" - i.e. whatever the particular lords decide it is.

 

(Renly was right. Might makes right in the setting although they pretend it doesn't)

[shireenbamfatheon]

Is Tyrion the only character besides Sam whose death no one's entertained? I don't think I've ever seen anyone fear for show!Tyrion's life, including me, yet I'm convinced his book counterpart's doomed. 

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, WindyNights said:

That's an interpretation. GRRM very well could have released that Alayna chapter as a reminder that Sansa will be nowhere near Ramsay. (The plan is still for her to go North)

Littlefinger's plan, maybe, but plans are a funny thing in ASOIAF, especially plans revealed before they have a chance to be executed. GRRM has spelled out that it's not his plan for Sansa to go North.

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If LF produces Tysha then Sansa's marriage to Tyrion becomes invalid

Littlefinger specifically states when laying out his grand plan (and you should pay attention in ASOIAF whenever any character lays out a grand plan) that his plan must wait until Sansa is safely widowed, which makes sense if you consider that 1) he has been trying for some time to get Tyrion killed and 2) he wants there to be no question that Sansa is free to remarry. Even if LF could produce Tysha, and there's no indication that that's in the cards, that wouldn't prove that Tyrion's marriage to her wasn't lawfully annulled, and Tyrion himself said that it was if the marriage "had never happened."

As I said, trying to find ways for Sansa to escape that marriage is ignoring that GRRM did it in the first place to enable his plot. GRRM even went to the extent of contriving an annulment procedure that Sansa cannot use. If he wanted her out of that marriage, he'd make it easy: his world, his rules. He didn't, because he wants her to remain married to enable his TWOW/ADOS plots--probably because he needs a compelling reason for Sansa never to marry Harry the Heir--just as D&D did away with the TV marriage to enable their Ramsay plot. 

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Robb's will also doesn't matter if no one can enforce it. If LF is bringing the Vale army with Sansa to the North then Sansa+Harry+LF can use Renly's argument that might makes right.

If Robb's will has no effect on the plot and no one will care about its contents, there was no point in coming up with it. Robb's will is a huge Chekhov's gun, and GRRM wouldn't have bothered with it unless it was going to come into play in a big way.

46 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

Is Tyrion the only character besides Sam whose death no one's entertained? I don't think I've ever seen anyone fear for show!Tyrion's life, including me, yet I'm convinced his book counterpart's doomed. 

There's enough ominous foreshadowing to suggest that the core five are all doomed, and yet if the outline is to be believed they're all safe.

As for Tyrion and Sam, they're the closest GRRM comes to self-insert characters, so that's why many think they're safe.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Eyes High

[Sunshinegal]

29 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

Is Tyrion the only character besides Sam whose death no one's entertained? I don't think I've ever seen anyone fear for show!Tyrion's life, including me, yet I'm convinced his book counterpart's doomed. 

I also think book Tyrion is doomed because of the kinslaying.  Its such a big deal in the books.  I can't picture book Tyrion having a happy ending.  Especially if he is the valanquor because then he killed two members of his family. 

[Stella]

25 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

GRRM has spelled out that it's not his plan for Sansa to go North.

Did he say so in an interview? 

[WindyNights]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Littlefinger's plan, maybe, but plans are a funny thing in ASOIAF, especially plans revealed before they have a chance to be executed. GRRM has spelled out that it's not his plan for Sansa to go North.

Littlefinger specifically states when laying out his grand plan (and you should pay attention in ASOIAF whenever any character lays out a grand plan) that his plan must wait until Sansa is safely widowed, which makes sense if you consider that 1) he has been trying for some time to get Tyrion killed and 2) he wants there to be no question that Sansa is free to remarry. Even if LF could produce Tysha, and there's no indication that that's in the cards, that wouldn't prove that Tyrion's marriage to her wasn't lawfully annulled, and Tyrion himself said that it was if the marriage "had never happened."

As I said, trying to find ways for Sansa to escape that marriage is ignoring that GRRM did it in the first place to enable his plot. GRRM even went to the extent of contriving an annulment procedure that Sansa cannot use. If he wanted her out of that marriage, he'd make it easy: his world, his rules. He didn't, because he wants her to remain married to enable his TWOW/ADOS plots--probably because he needs a compelling reason for Sansa never to marry Harry the Heir--just as D&D did away with the TV marriage to enable their Ramsay plot. 

If Robb's will has no effect on the plot and no one will care about its contents, there was no point in coming up with it. Robb's will is a huge Chekhov's gun, and GRRM wouldn't have bothered with it unless it was going to come into play in a big way.

I don't expect LF's plan to go without a hitch. The Mad Mouse is a Spanner in the Works. Regardless, I think the general intention is going to happen. Vale+ Sansa+ Harry + LF go North.

I already know that LF states when Sansa is safely widowed but LF also knows of Tyrion's marriage to Tysha and could very well be looking for her in case Tyrion isn't killed. Tyrion and Tysha were married by a septon. All that's needed is the septon and Tysha.

If Sansa doesn't marry Harry the Heir then how is she going to get the backing of the Vale? What's the purpose of the Vale plot? Where is Sansa headed to?  She just sits her ass in the Vale for the entire story? We got a clear direction in the books and the show is saying that yes, that direction is the right one.

Robb's will is there to create conflict between Jon's camp, Sansa's camp and Stannis' camp.

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, Sunshinegal said:

I also think book Tyrion is doomed because of the kinslaying.  Its such a big deal in the books.  I can't picture book Tyrion having a happy ending.  Especially if he is the valanquor because then he killed two members of his family. 

I suspect that D&D did away with the kinslaying curse because it has no bearing on Tyrion's endgame. That's just my theory, though. 

1 hour ago, Stella said:

Did he say so in an interview? 

GRRM has said that he has no idea what D&D are doing with Sansa's storyline. That's about as much confirmation as you're going to get.

1 hour ago, WindyNights said:

I don't expect LF's plan to go without a hitch. The Mad Mouse is a Spanner in the Works. Regardless, I think the general intention is going to happen. Vale+ Sansa+ Harry + LF go North.

Why? The plan is explicitly contingent on Tyrion dying. 

Quote

If Sansa doesn't marry Harry the Heir then how is she going to get the backing of the Vale? What's the purpose of the Vale plot? Where is Sansa headed to?  She just sits her ass in the Vale for the entire story? We got a clear direction in the books and the show is saying that yes, that direction is the right one.

And GRRM has gotten as close as he's going to get about revealing future plot points to saying that no, actually, that's not the direction. Of course, one doesn't need GRRM's say-so to predict that Littlefinger's plan is doomed, since it depends on Tyrion's death, the one thing we know won't happen.

Quote

I already know that LF states when Sansa is safely widowed but

Then why do you keep banging the "Littlefinger's going to produce Tysha" drum when Littlefinger has explicitly stated that the marriage needs to wait until Sansa is widowed? If Littlefinger already knows about Tysha but is still counting on Tyrion's death, then he obviously thinks using Tysha to invalidate the marriage is not the great idea you seem to think it is.

Furthermore, if Sansa wanted an annulment she wouldn't even need Tysha or the septon, since her marriage to Tyrion was not consummated, which in of itself will be sufficient. However, she would need to write to the High Septon as Sansa Stark to request an annulment, which as a fan pointed out and as GRRM agreed she couldn't do without revealing her location. And of course in Littlefinger's plan she can't reveal herself to the Vale as Sansa Stark until she marries Harry, and of course she can't marry Harry until she's an unmarried woman...and so you see, she's pretty much stuck. 

GRRM has deliberately and carefully contrived a situation where Sansa has become and remains Tyrion's wife. In fact, had GRRM preserved the five-year gap, Sansa would have been married to Tyrion for five years.

Instead of trying to come up with ways to get Sansa out of that situation, it makes more sense to think about why GRRM went to so much trouble to put her in that situation in the first place.

Quote

Robb's will is there to create conflict between Jon's camp, Sansa's camp and Stannis' camp.

There won't be any conflict if Sansa is no longer married, since it gives Jon an out, which was my point.

Food for thought on Tysha...We know that D&D got the big info dump from GRRM about post-ADWD ASOIAF around the same time they were writing Season 4. They also in Season 4 decided to exclude the Tysha reveal from the show. They gave an explanation for doing so at the time. Is it possible that D&D learned something from GRRM in 2013 about the future ASOIAF storylines that made them decide to leave the truth about Tysha out?

Edited June 1, 2018 by Eyes High

[Happy Harpy]

33 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Instead of trying to come up with ways to get Sansa out of that situation, it makes more sense to think about why GRRM went to so much trouble to put her in that situation in the first place.

Food for thought on Tysha...We know that D&D got the big info dump from GRRM about post-ADWD ASOIAF around the same time they were writing Season 4. They also in Season 4 decided to exclude the Tysha reveal from the show. They gave an explanation for doing so at the time. Is it possible that D&D learned something from GRRM in 2013 about the future ASOIAF storylines that made them decide to leave the truth about Tysha out?

 

I agree. I don't know what GRRM intended but if the marriage is meant to be significant, all that D&D have to do is another heel-turn. "Meh, the Boltons only cared about what they wanted to hear but the Lannistark one is totes legit". Actually, they had Lyanna Mormont mention it, "Bolton or Lannister?".

If Tysha was meant to be significant, I think D&D would have kept her. Tyrion told his story in S2, Tyrion mentioned his marriage to Tywin in S3, so it would have been perfectly natural to mention her when he killed Tywin. It wasn't as if they'd have taken her out of their hats. Even if they wanted to stress that Tyrion loved Shae, it would have made the moment only more dramatic and Tyrion more of a tragic figure, after his father stole his two loves from him, one way or another. I think it's significant that they omitted Tysha from S4 on and from that particular moment, after GRRM's Big Briefing.

What's on the show is what's going to count in the end -at least for the big picture end game, or the one related to the OG5. Jon and not fAegon, Gendry and not Edric Storm etc.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[nikma]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

GRRM has said that he has no idea what D&D are doing with Sansa's storyline.

When he said this? source?

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, nikma said:

When he said this? source?

Maybe this:

https://grrm.livejournal.com/427713.html

[WindyNights]

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

GRRM has said that he has no idea what D&D are doing with Sansa's storyline. That's about as much confirmation as you're going to get.

Why? The plan is explicitly contingent on Tyrion dying. 

And GRRM has gotten as close as he's going to get about revealing future plot points to saying that no, actually, that's not the direction. Of course, one doesn't need GRRM's say-so to predict that Littlefinger's plan is doomed, since it depends on Tyrion's death, the one thing we know won't happen.

Then why do you keep banging the "Littlefinger's going to produce Tysha" drum when Littlefinger has explicitly stated that the marriage needs to wait until Sansa is widowed? If Littlefinger already knows about Tysha but is still counting on Tyrion's death, then he obviously thinks using Tysha to invalidate the marriage is not the great idea you seem to think it is.

Furthermore, if Sansa wanted an annulment she wouldn't even need Tysha or the septon, since her marriage to Tyrion was not consummated, which in of itself will be sufficient. However, she would need to write to the High Septon as Sansa Stark to request an annulment, which as a fan pointed out and as GRRM agreed she couldn't do without revealing her location. And of course in Littlefinger's plan she can't reveal herself to the Vale as Sansa Stark until she marries Harry, and of course she can't marry Harry until she's an unmarried woman...and so you see, she's pretty much stuck. 

GRRM has deliberately and carefully contrived a situation where Sansa has become and remains Tyrion's wife. In fact, had GRRM preserved the five-year gap, Sansa would have been married to Tyrion for five years.

Instead of trying to come up with ways to get Sansa out of that situation, it makes more sense to think about why GRRM went to so much trouble to put her in that situation in the first place.

There won't be any conflict if Sansa is no longer married, since it gives Jon an out, which was my point.

Food for thought on Tysha...We know that D&D got the big info dump from GRRM about post-ADWD ASOIAF around the same time they were writing Season 4. They also in Season 4 decided to exclude the Tysha reveal from the show. They gave an explanation for doing so at the time. Is it possible that D&D learned something from GRRM in 2013 about the future ASOIAF storylines that made them decide to leave the truth about Tysha out?

 

1. I don't think GRRM said that at all. Link your source.

2. Tyrion's death is 100 % to work. Producing Tysha might not but also he might not have her in his clutches yet. He might still be looking for her.

3. All that means is that Sansa could safely request for an annulment after Cersei's been toppled or kicked out of KL. It's not like Aegon has any animosity towards Sansa and neither does the High Septon. Also that's where I meant that LF's plan won't go off without a hitch. The Mad Mouse seems to be there so that Sansa's identity is revealed prematurely.

4. What do you mean it gives Jon an out? I don't think Jon's going to be cool with LF and Harry the Heir controlling the North when he knows a WW threat is on its way and they don't believe him.

5. Yeah, they just decided to shortcut through it. As you remember, Show Sansa married Show Ramsay and her marriage to Tyrion ended up not mattering. No one even batted an eye.

3 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Maybe this:

https://grrm.livejournal.com/427713.html

That quote argues against what Eyes High is saying.

[GrailKing]

I think GRRM statement was their choice will create a huge ( butterfly effect )change to the WF story line, but hopefully get her to the same end.

D & D dropped the personal request by either Sansa or Tyrion in the show.

Personally I wished they kept her in the Eyrie and focusing on her learning the game and be a thorn in LF side.

[GrailKing]

Big Salt Grain !!

[GraceK]

http://watchersonthewall.com/con-thrones-exclusive-joe-dempsie-hoped-season-8-duo-gendrys-marriage-prospects/#more-163753

Interesting article with some s8 Gendry speculation.

[GrailKing]

[GraceK]

You know, I honestly don’t know what to think anymore when it comes to Danys endgame. I feel like she is getting a lot of negative press in regards to what other characters are saying about her in the off season but yet what we see onscreen is obviously someone we are supposed to root for and in my opinion anyway is obviously team good guy so what the hell??? Is this a giant red herring so we think she goes mad queen and full villain so we are pleasantly surprised when she doesn’t and comes out the victor? Or do they just not know what they doing and think they are showing us the “villians” origin story but are doing such a bad job that she’s actually coming out heroic instead?

Edited June 2, 2018 by GraceK

[GrailKing]

GOT filming in unused WH?

https://imgur.com/a/gW4teXU

Edited June 2, 2018 by GrailKing

[screamin]

9 hours ago, WindyNights said:

If LF produces Tysha then Sansa's marriage to Tyrion becomes invalid. And according to GRRM, we'll find out where whores go in TWOW so it seems likely we'll be seeing her again.

Or, if Sansa is proven to be a virgin the marriage to Tyrion can be declared unconsummated, hence null and void. Henry the VIII wasn't supposed to marry Catherine of Aragon because she was his brother's wife and under biblical law marrying her was incest, but he wanted to and had it declared her marriage to his deceased brother was unconsummated and therefore not legally valid. Later, when she didn't have a boy, he changed his mind and tried to get an annulment on those grounds. When the Pope wouldn't play, Henry started a new religion and got his way. If LF decides he wants to have Sansa marry Harry under her true name for any number of possible reasons (he doesn't think Harry's infatuation with her will last long enough to outlast his distaste for her bastard status over a long engagement, and/or Sweetrobin's health deteriorates faster than expected under LF's ordered regime of sweetmilk, leaving LF in danger of losing his seat of power as Regent and possibly being accused of poisoning his lord as well) LF could probably make the marriage happen.

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

You know, I honestly don’t know what to think anymore when it comes to Danys endgame. I feel like she is getting a lot of negative press in regards to what other characters are saying about her in the off season but yet what we see onscreen is obviously someone we are supposed to root for and in my opinion anyway is obviously team good guy so what the hell??? Is this a giant red herring so we think she goes mad queen and full villain so we are pleasantly surprised when she doesn’t and comes out the victor? Or do they just not know what they doing and think they are showing us the “villians” origin story but are doing such a bad job that she’s actually coming out heroic instead?

 

I don't think that Daenerys is getting negative press. She is one of the heroes of the story. Rather I see people who dislike the character hoping for the worse.  

Edited June 2, 2018 by SimoneS

[Eyes High]

7 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

I agree. I don't know what GRRM intended but if the marriage is meant to be significant, all that D&D have to do is another heel-turn. "Meh, the Boltons only cared about what they wanted to hear but the Lannistark one is totes legit". Actually, they had Lyanna Mormont mention it, "Bolton or Lannister?".

 

Pretty much. Sansa's subsequent marriage to Ramsay doesn't mean anything. Sansa and Tyrion in the show will be as married as D&D and by extension Sansa wants them to be. If she decides they're not married, well, she was remarried and widowed. If she decides they are married, well, they never got a proper annulment, so...

Quote

 

I think it's significant that they omitted Tysha from S4 on and from that particular moment, after GRRM's Big Briefing.

 

I think so, too, although to be fair I can't claim to have come up with the theory that D&D are lying about the reason for leaving out the Tysha reveal because the truth is that they learned something about GRRM's outline that made them want to leave it out.

3 hours ago, WindyNights said:

1. I don't think GRRM said that at all. Link your source.

2. Tyrion's death is 100 % to work. Producing Tysha might not but also he might not have her in his clutches yet. He might still be looking for her.

3. All that means is that Sansa could safely request for an annulment after Cersei's been toppled or kicked out of KL. It's not like Aegon has any animosity towards Sansa and neither does the High Septon. Also that's where I meant that LF's plan won't go off without a hitch. The Mad Mouse seems to be there so that Sansa's identity is revealed prematurely.

4. What do you mean it gives Jon an out? I don't think Jon's going to be cool with LF and Harry the Heir controlling the North when he knows a WW threat is on its way and they don't believe him.

5. Yeah, they just decided to shortcut through it. As you remember, Show Sansa married Show Ramsay and her marriage to Tyrion ended up not mattering. No one even batted an eye.

That quote argues against what Eyes High is saying.

1. It was an offhand remark at a con, if I recall correctly, and there don't tend to be good records of those. I recall that you claimed upthread that Sansa was never disinherited and was proven wrong when I cited book text that showed otherwise, so your insistence on linking to sources strikes me as more than a little inconsistent.

2. Tysha doesn't matter since Littlefinger has told us that he's counting on Tyrion's death, and as I said producing Tysha makes no sense since doing so wouldn't instantly invalidate Sansa's marriage to Tyrion any more than non-consummation instantly invalidates a marriage in the books. The idea that LF is going to make Tysha appear and Sansa's marriage will immediately vanish in a puff of smoke is a dumb fantasy of those who ship her with Sandor or Jon or whomever. Sansa already has a perfectly good basis for an annulment without bringing Tysha into it. Regardless of her basis for an annulment, whether it's Tysha or non-consummation, Sansa would still need to write to the High Septon to request an annulment, so the whole Tysha argument is academic. Littlefinger's too smart to waste time chasing after Tysha, since getting her wouldn't change what Sansa needed to do to obtain an annulment: reveal her location to KL.

3. And the books suggest that Cersei isn't going to go quietly. There's no guarantee that any subsequent regime in the interim will be any friendlier to Sansa, either; she is a suspected kingslayer.

4. Jon can graciously cede to Sansa if the basis for the will--Sansa's marriage--no longer exists. I think Jon's going to have to make a choice, though; it's not going to be that easy for him.

5. Yes, D&D and GRRM use different rules for annulments to facilitate their respective plots. D&D wanted Sansa free to marry Ramsay, so they changed GRRM's annulment rules to bypass the annulment requirement. GRRM wants Sansa married to Tyrion, so he came up with annulment rules that will make an annulment extremely difficult to obtain. Simple.

D&D changing the show annulment rules to do away with Sansa’s marriage is actually pretty good evidence that GRRM with his annulment rules wants the opposite result. Otherwise, he would have done precisely what D&D did.

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

http://watchersonthewall.com/con-thrones-exclusive-joe-dempsie-hoped-season-8-duo-gendrys-marriage-prospects/#more-163753

Interesting article with some s8 Gendry speculation.

Gendry marrying Dany wouldn't be too far off from what happened with the real Wars of the Roses, with Gendry as the Elizabeth of York figure and Dany as the Henry Tudor figure. I think Joe's just having fun, though.

Edited June 2, 2018 by Eyes High

[GraceK]

39 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Gendry marrying Dany wouldn't be too far off from what happened with the real Wars of the Roses, with Gendry as the Elizabeth of York figure and Dany as the Henry Tudor figure. I think Joe's just having fun, though.

If that’s the ending , I will laugh. Now that will be really unexpected!!! ?? I won’t be mad though

Edited June 2, 2018 by GraceK

[Sunshinegal]

Gendry marrying dany would be interesting but doesn't gendry need to be legitimized first and isnt dany having jon's child.  Dany doesnt even need gendry tô cement her rule since she has dragons, dothraki and the unsullied. 

Most likely gendry and sam will figure out the secrets of valyrian steel or some other weapon, gendry will have some sort of small leadership position, he will reunite with arya, they will rediscover their friendship, fight side by side and maybe start a romance.  

The only thing I would find unpredictable is the reason why varys saved gendry in the first place.  I can't figure out why he did that.

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

As per the Topic Announcement: Once again we've veered into in-depth book vs show analysis regarding - surprise, surprise - Sansa.

If you want your post removed; that is how you get your post removed... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Happy Harpy]

5 hours ago, GraceK said:

You know, I honestly don’t know what to think anymore when it comes to Danys endgame. I feel like she is getting a lot of negative press in regards to what other characters are saying about her in the off season but yet what we see onscreen is obviously someone we are supposed to root for and in my opinion anyway is obviously team good guy so what the hell??? Is this a giant red herring so we think she goes mad queen and full villain so we are pleasantly surprised when she doesn’t and comes out the victor? Or do they just not know what they doing and think they are showing us the “villians” origin story but are doing such a bad job that she’s actually coming out heroic instead?

Dany's storyline is this season's Jon/Sansa conflict.

I agree with SimoneS above; I don't think she's getting negative press, but she's in the way of a couple of characters -for example, many (standard disclaimer apply) Stannis fans hated her for having a claim on the throne.

[bubble sparkly]

6 hours ago, GraceK said:

You know, I honestly don’t know what to think anymore when it comes to Danys endgame. I feel like she is getting a lot of negative press in regards to what other characters are saying about her in the off season but yet what we see onscreen is obviously someone we are supposed to root for and in my opinion anyway is obviously team good guy so what the hell??? Is this a giant red herring so we think she goes mad queen and full villain so we are pleasantly surprised when she doesn’t and comes out the victor? Or do they just not know what they doing and think they are showing us the “villians” origin story but are doing such a bad job that she’s actually coming out heroic instead?

I think the door on Dany becoming mad queen has been firmly shut after s7.  At the end of the season she has agreed to use her dragons and her armies to fight the WW, she and Jon are in love and Jon thinks she deserves to be queen (and the show basically told us that Jon is Ned 2.0, the most moral man in Westeros, so if he loves Dany she can't be a bad guy), and she is likely now carrying a Targ Restoration miracle baby.

Tyrion's hypocritical hand wringing about Dany in s7 was annoying (I guess fire is okay when he's the one launching wildfire at people!), but if we were supposed to wonder whether Dany might go "bad" we were shown that she ultimately picked Team Good Guy.  Also, despite the kind of misogynistic undertones, I think we are supposed to infer that Jon is good for Dany and his influence keeps her on the right path.  Jon sways her from flying to KL in 7x04 and using her dragons to defeat Cersei, Jon inspires her to go rescue everyone beyond the wall, and she ignores her advisors and agrees to Jon's suggestion that they sail to the North together.

I can't really see anything that would cause Dany to suddenly turn evil in s8, and if she and Jon survive the final battle she is in line to have everything she's ever wanted.  After years of thinking she was barren she will get her miracle baby, she will be able to marry the man she loves, and the man she loves is actually her family too (which is normally a massive Targ turn on lol).  I'm sure part of Dany will feel a bit sad upon learning she's not the heir to the throne, but there's no way Jon is going to do anything other than want to rule with her, so she's not really losing anything.  I cannot see her suddenly declaring war on Jon and the two of then fighting over the throne.  Besides that making no sense after s7, there's simply no time to have a battle with the NK, and battle with Cersei and a Jon/Dany battle.

[Happy Harpy]

1 hour ago, bubble sparkly said:

Tyrion's hypocritical hand wringing about Dany in s7 was annoying (I guess fire is okay when he's the one launching wildfire at people!), but if we were supposed to wonder whether Dany might go "bad" we were shown that she ultimately picked Team Good Guy.  Also, despite the kind of misogynistic undertones, I think we are supposed to infer that Jon is good for Dany and his influence keeps her on the right path. 

Because of this, I was glad that Davos was allowed to call Tyrion out about losing his son at the Blackwater; at least it wasn't forgotten. I'm not sure that Jon/Dany has misogynistic undertones here, since he's Ice and she's Fire, and ice is supposed to cool fire. It just happens that ice is man and fire is woman -and come to think of it, this is a nice inversion vs the traditional imagery moon/cold/calm/woman, sun/hot/action/man.

I would like to see the reverse in S8, and Dany kick Jon's butt into action if he's brooding. "Be a dragon, Jon Snow!"

Edited June 2, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[Eyes High]

On /Freefolk someone observed that if the show ends with Jon on the throne, a dragon and a baby while Dany dies, there will be a spectacular fan backlash, and they’re not wrong. If the fan backlash is strong enough, it could kill any spinoff; that’s what happened with How I Met Your Mother.

Sounds like Aidan Gillen and a few others are in town for a big wrap party.

Some dude on Twitter is hearing that there will be filming at Ballygowan County Down next week.

Edited June 2, 2018 by Eyes High

[tangerine95]

I agree there would be a backlash if Dany dies while Jon gets left with everything she had or fought for,her kid,her remaining army,her dragons,the throne.Especially if they would kill her off in a way like the nissa nissa theories or in childbirth.That might get as bad reactions as the Sansa/Ramsey stuff.I know I would be pissed off.I can deal with Dany dying but not with some ending that makes it look like she was just a placeholder for the true hero Jon.

Edited June 2, 2018 by tangerine95

[shireenbamfatheon]

I don't think the show has shut the door on Daenerys turning dark side. This isn't the first time someone's been horrified by Dany doing something questionable followed by her backing down a bit and then rinse and repeat. In season four we had Barry's reaction to the crucifixions, leading to his eventual talk with her followed by Dany's own horrified reaction to the possibility of her becoming her dad. She calmed down a bit but then Barristan died and she did something bad again. Then Tyrion later had to talk her down from burning everyone, she listened but then did something questionable again. Every time it appears that she's learned some valuable lesson and changed, they repeat the same arc. They've played this scenario out so many times I'll be shocked if they won't follow through on it.

The groundwork's all there anyway. Dragging out the R+L=J reveal until after Jon and Dany have fallen in love, their sex scene taking place while Bran revealed Jon was the true heir, one of D's own comments that, "Just as we're seeing these two people come together, we're hearing the information that will inevitably, if not tear them apart, cause them real problems in their relationship." Emilia Clarke talking about doing "weird shit" and her quote: “Knowing that is going to be a lasting flavor in someone’s mouth of what Daenerys is ...." which doesn't sound remotely positive to me or her talking about her acting experience rather than what, and not who, Daenerys is. Daenerys burning Jon's best friend's family, which he doesn't know about, along with the Vale and North's distaste for Targaryens and refusal to bend the knee to another non-Northerner. Then there's the scene with a very whitewashed Varys revealing that he truly serves the realm and that if he finds her lacking he'll turn on her, followed by him later fearing that she's just like her father. If nothing is supposed to come out of any of this beyond some minimal drama to prove how strong Jon and Dany's relationship is, I'll be shocked. 

"They'll come to see you for what you are," could just as easily be unknowingly foreboding as romantic. It's certainly the type of foreshadowing I can see GRRM including in his books.

ETA: I don't think "mad" and "dark" are synonymous in this case.

Edited June 2, 2018 by shireenbamfatheon

[Eyes High]

52 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

I agree there would be a backlash if Dany dies while Jon gets left with everything she had or fought for,her kid,her remaining army,her dragons,the throne.Especially if they would kill her off in a way like the nissa nissa theories or in childbirth.That might get as bad reactions as the Sansa/Ramsey stuff.I know I would be pissed off.I can deal with Dany dying but not with some ending that makes it look like she was just a placeholder for the true hero Jon.

My one comfort from the Sansa/Ramsay debacle is that if Sansa is captured by Cersei in S8 that we won’t be in for more sexualized torture. 

I’ll only be cool with Dany dying if Jon dies as well.

[nikma]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

On /Freefolk someone observed that if the show ends with Jon on the throne, a dragon and a baby while Dany dies, there will be a spectacular fan backlash, and they’re not wrong

I mean I could see backlash even if all this happens and Dany lives. Jon and Dany ruling together will awake these now popular buzzwords like fan service, Disney ending, GRRM would never do that, the books will be darker and more nuanced and so on. 

[Eyes High]

45 minutes ago, nikma said:

I mean I could see backlash even if all this happens and Dany lives. Jon and Dany ruling together will awake these now popular buzzwords like fan service, Disney ending, GRRM would never do that, the books will be darker and more nuanced and so on. 

Fair enough. A few cast members have insinuated that the ending may be divisive, but frankly I don't know how it won't be. As Isaac hinted, there will be people saying the ending is too happy and people saying the ending is too sad. Angry book purists will console themselves with the thought that the ending was entirely invented by D&D and that the books will either do something different or will do the same ending but with infinitely superior execution. One thing is certain: no matter what happens, GRRM will never hear the end of it. 

Some of the most iconic or popular shows over the past 10 years have had incredibly controversial or unpopular endings--LOST, Battlestar Galactica, How I Met Your Mother, Mad Men, Dexter, etc.--so at least if GOT doesn't stick the landing, it will be in good company. 

Recent Belfast sightings (in addition to Sophie and Maisie): Aidan Gillen, Lena, Thor, John, Isaac, Kit, and Emilia. Jason Momoa's probably in the mix, too, given his presence in Northern Ireland over the last few days. I saw something about Natalie (Dormer? Emmanuel?), too. Must be one hell of a wrap party. Maybe Conan O'Brien's involved somehow...? He's in Belfast, and he's said to be interviewing the cast.

I'm getting verklempt. It's really (almost) over.

ETA: Sean Bean was just spotted in Belfast.

ETA: Pictures from Irish Thrones of DEVASTATION IN KING'S LANDING (their caps, heh):

 

Edited June 2, 2018 by Eyes High

[nikma]

I don't think that the end of GoT will be that controversial. I mean D&D wrote the ending of Act 2 and it was universally loved. I think they are very good with climaxes and they know how to end on high note. 

 

Some people maybe won't like the idea of ending (Jon and Dany together for example) but I think the execution will make it work. There are a lot of examples of scenes that sounded strange when we got leaks, but they worked great at the end and were very popular. Hardhome, Hold the door, BoTB, Arya killing the Freys,...

Edited June 2, 2018 by nikma