Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[aprilbabe]

2 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Also debunks Tyrion's trial, doesn't it?

Seems like it. I wonder is Friki will continue to stand by his Tyrion trial spoiler. 

Glad I know ahead of time time. All the nervousness and anxiety is gone. It is what it is. Still, don't agree is Jon murdering Dany. Completely get Dany's thought process for attacking Kings Landing, I don't think it makes her a mad dog in need of "putting down".

Does Missaendi get beheaded in Kings Landing or Dragonstone.  ANd I hope Dany burns Euron alive.

[Bannon]

8 minutes ago, aprilbabe said:

I wonder if she doesn't realize they are there. It looks like they are just arriving at dragonstone and Euron fleet is hidden. Poor Rhaegal.

So she's still too dumb to understand that one of the most useful attributes of  having a dragon is being able to fly around at 10,000 feet, and know the location of your enemies. And that having an ally who can warg entire flocks of birds, which fly around a continent to detect what your enemies are doing, is a very valuable thing that should not be underemployed in a time of war.

Hell, at this point, why not have Loki come from Asgard to lend Cersei a hand? Or The Joker from Gotham City? Oh, that's right.....HBO would have to pay for use of copyright!

Egads.....

[Wouter]

10 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Looks like the leaks are legit.

I’m sorry to say, at least some of them are.

5 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Also debunks Tyrion's trial, doesn't it?

Even assuming all the other leaks from the same source are garbage, it's safe to conclude that no matter what happens, Dany's really not going to react well to losing Rhaegal and Missandei.

It does look like Friki was fooled.

[aprilbabe]

Just now, Bannon said:

So she's still too dumb to understand that one of the most useful attributes of  having a dragon is being able to fly around at 10,000 feet, and know the location of your enemies. And that having an ally who can warg entire flocks of birds, which fly around a continent to detect what your enemies are doing, is a very valuable thing that should not be underemployed in a time of war.

Hell, at this point, why not have Loki come from Asgard to lend Cersei a hand? Or The Joker from Gotham City? Oh, that's right.....HBO would have to pay for use of copyright!

Egads.....

Yep the same way no thought that having people hide in the crypts, when the NIght King could raise the dead, was a bad idea. The writers make the characters stupid to get to the desired result.

[YaddaYadda]

42 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Is it ever explained in the books why Wildfire only is manufactured and used in KL? A secret formula? It's too dangerous to transport?

This is directly from the 2nd book;

"Oh, yes, most certainly . . . but carefully, my lord, ever so carefully. As it ages, the substance grows ever more, hmm, fickle, let us say. Any flame will set it afire. Any spark. Too much heat and jars will blaze up of their own accord. It is not wise to let them sit in sunlight, even for a short time. Once the fire begins within, the heat causes the substance to expand violently, and the jars shortly fly to pieces. If other jars should happen to be stored in the same vicinity, those go up as well, and so --" (Tyrion V, ACoK 20)

Transporting it a long distance would be a challenge. The wildfire in the books is kept in cool vaults. 

[ElizaD]

If this is GRRM's version of bittersweet, what would he call bitter? Dany dead, Jon back to the NW in misery, all done at the speed of light for the sake of shock value. And democracy/council out of nowhere? Not one of the surviving characters has questioned the system in any way, beyond noblewomen like Arya wanting to fight like the noblemen and Tyrion being outraged that dwarfism denied him the privileges he was due by birth. The books don't even have Dany's wheel speech, yet GRRM said the show ending would be based on his - is he actually going to kill off his favorite house? What a mess.

The one single positive thing I've found in the leaks so far is the wildlings getting to settle in devastated Northern lands. Everything else is tragedy and misery.

[Minneapple]

5 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

Bittersweet =/= happy 

Bitter is just bitter. 

Recall that the final book's title was originally supposed to be A Time For Wolves. Now, we can assume that Jon is going to be broody and angry for a long time or the rest of his life. But if Arya, Sansa and Bran are generally happy or content, then that's what bittersweet might be referring to.

[Meredith Quill]

Just now, aprilbabe said:

Yep the same way no thought that having people hide in the crypts, when the NIght King could raise the dead, was a bad idea. The writers make the characters stupid to get to the desired result.

This is what happens when subpar writers don't have book resources to rely on and turn the story from a character driven one to a plot driven one...sigh. It's been this way for some time now.

[anamika]

D&D really did that to Missandei... Lol! These guys. I have no words.

At this point if Jon does kill Dany, he becomes a villain in my eyes. 

[Bannon]

8 minutes ago, aprilbabe said:

Yep the same way no thought that having people hide in the crypts, when the NIght King could raise the dead, was a bad idea. The writers make the characters stupid to get to the desired result.

I just despise writing like this.

[onyxrose81]

Yeah I feel I wasted 8 years of my life.  

[Happy Harpy]

Rhaegal killed by Euron is now proven, and it's specific enough.

For now, I'm pissed off about Jaime betraying (so only those who die are truly redempted? sigh) and Missandei's death.

During the off-season, I made my peace witht the fact I might not like the ending. I loved 8x02 and 8x03, but well. I just hope they won't also destroy Arya, too, since she's the one I care most about.

[tangerine95]

2 minutes ago, anamika said:

D&D really did that to Missandei... Lol! These guys. I have no words.

At this point if Jon does kill Dany, he becomes a villain in my eyes. 

Same she suffered so much because of the decision to help the north and by listening to his counsel and Tyrion's she gave Cersei the opportunity to do this.

[nodorothyparker]

I normally don't get too much into spoilers until I see how or if they play out onscreen, but this is reading less like anything that might be characterized as "bittersweet" and more like a much expanded version of the Quentyn Martell trolling.  Curious George himself did write that one.

[Meredith Quill]

2 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Recall that the final book's title was originally supposed to be A Time For Wolves. Now, we can assume that Jon is going to be broody and angry for a long time or the rest of his life. But if Arya, Sansa and Bran are generally happy or content, then that's what bittersweet might be referring to.

I don't see any sweet in a cold-because-traumatised Sansa, a robotic Bran and a 'I solve my problems by killing' Arya resolution. That isn't a sweet ending for the Stark family and doesn't make the bitter of Jon killing the woman he loves less bitter. To me that's survival which isn't in itself - sweet. Jmo.

[Bannon]

Can Congress pass a law that requires Vince Gilligan be given story veto power on any show that runs for more than two seasons?

[Eyes High]

Clip of Missandei's death has leaked:

Cersei, Euron, Missandei and the Mountain are standing on top of the Red Keep gates with Tyrion, Dany, Varys, the Unsullied, and Grey Worm watching. The Mountain chops off Missandei's head and tosses her body off the gates. Grey Worm flinches and looks away. The towers on either side of the gates where Cersei and company are standing look burned at the tops. Wildfire? Dragonfire?

Dany has the same costume/hair she had in the scene where Rhaegal is downed. Tyrion still has his Hand pin. No sign of Team Stark.

Edited May 5, 2019 by Eyes High

[anamika]

So basically Jon's entire story  is about killing Dany and saving Tyrion's worthless ass and the terrible people of KL?

What a waste.

11 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

This is what happens when subpar writers don't have book resources to rely on and turn the story from a character driven one to a plot driven one...sigh. It's been this way for some time now.

This is what I have been saying for some time now, but the folks here were going gaga over D&D's writing and how they have written the best show blah blah.

The problems have been evident for a few seasons now.

And GRRM is equally to blame for having stopped writing and leaving it upto two hacks who value surprise and spectacle over characters to finish off this complex, epic story with no additional material except a vague outline.

Anyways, it is what it is. If Jon does kill Dany in the books, I am thinking both Jon and Dany's motivations will be different and it could happen differently.

The Others is the primary story of the books unlike the show, and Nissa Nissa is still a thing. I suspect something of that sort happening over there.

Show Jon is a total waste of time at this point.

7 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

I just hope they won't also destroy Arya, too, since she's the one I care most about.

Yeah, at this point, I am pinning my hopes on Arya. Hopefully, she atleast gets a better ending.

Edited May 5, 2019 by anamika

[Eyes High]

2 minutes ago, anamika said:

So basically Jon's entire story  is about killing Dany and saving Tyrion's worthless ass and the terrible people of KL?

No wonder D&D were so worried about Kit not liking the S8 scripts. "So...you don't get to kill the NK, you have to put down the woman you love like a rabid dog, you don't end up as king, and you go live as a hermit in the frozen wastes...We cool?"

[Azi]

I've rewatched the LotR movies a few days ago and THAT is what I call bittersweet. It was uplifting, but no happy end. 

This kind of ending might have been popular and revolutionary 20 years ago, but for me personally, in the current world climate, it's just not a thing I enjoy. Real life is depressing enough. (It would be different if the show had always been grimdark or was brilliantly written)

[Eyes High]

1 minute ago, Azi said:

I've rewatched the LotR movies a few days ago and THAT is what I call bittersweet. It was uplifting, but no happy end. 

This kind of ending might have been popular and revolutionary 20 years ago, but for me personally, in the current world climate, it's just not a thing I enjoy. Real life is depressing enough. (It would be different if the show had always been grimdark or was brilliantly written)

Some fans took the tack that given his previous body of work and how grimdark ASOIAF has been to date, GRRM's understanding of "bittersweet" might be shaded a lot more towards "bitter" than how most people would understand the term. I didn't think so, but it sure looks like we're going to an 80/20 bitter/sweet split rather than the 50/50 split most of us thought.

[nikma]

25 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

Bittersweet =/= happy 

Bitter is just bitter. 

That's what I meant. The story will end in complete tragedy. Even bigger than RW. 

[Minneapple]

12 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

I don't see any sweet in a cold-because-traumatised Sansa, a robotic Bran and a 'I solve my problems by killing' Arya resolution. That isn't a sweet ending for the Stark family and doesn't make the bitter of Jon killing the woman he loves less bitter. To me that's survival which isn't in itself - sweet. Jmo.

Sansa is dealing with her trauma and has agency, Arya may be in a happy place with Gendry. 

The death of Missandei is BRUTAL. Holy crap.

[Chiny11]

Wow...so the leaks are true.  Bummer!!  What a way to end a series.    😐

I am so glad Avengers: Endgame was released around this time.  At least I can console myself with the fact that Marvel got it right. There are a few nitpicking issues....but for the most part the Russo brothers and Feige delivered a wonderful finale.

[Eyes High]

6 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Arya may be in a happy place with Gendry. 

Apparently one of the leakers says that Arya rejects Gendry in 8x04. We'll see, but I guess that kiss in 8x04 could be a "It's not going to work, sorry" kiss. I guess if so that Arya/Gendry was a bit of fanservice because it was never going to be endgame.

So everyone is miserable and no ship is endgame (apart from Sam/Gilly, maybe).

Edited May 5, 2019 by Eyes High

[anamika]

16 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

I don't see any sweet in a cold-because-traumatised Sansa, a robotic Bran and a 'I solve my problems by killing' Arya resolution. That isn't a sweet ending for the Stark family and doesn't make the bitter of Jon killing the woman he loves less bitter. To me that's survival which isn't in itself - sweet. Jmo.

That's the issue. The Starks are so badly written on the show. Jon and Arya don't even have a relationship anymore - it's non-existent.

My investment in Arya comes from the books, so I am hoping she gets to leave Westeros and move onto better things.

[Chiny11]

9 minutes ago, Azi said:

I've rewatched the LotR movies a few days ago and THAT is what I call bittersweet. It was uplifting, but no happy end. 

This kind of ending might have been popular and revolutionary 20 years ago, but for me personally, in the current world climate, it's just not a thing I enjoy. Real life is depressing enough. (It would be different if the show had always been grimdark or was brilliantly written)

Exactly!!  This is not bittersweet.  This is straight up horrible and depressing. This is the kind of ending you would get from a series based on a Joe Abercrombie book. 

[Bannon]

21 minutes ago, nikma said:

That's what I meant. The story will end in complete tragedy. Even bigger than RW. 

I have no problem with complete tragedy. I am annoyed with complete tragedy as constructed  by people who have a command of narrative which approximates that of my labrador retriever's. I mean, he just kind of goes through his day experiencing events as if they are unconnected from each other as well.

Ok, that isn't quite fair to my dog. He can, after all, learn to look where his arch nemesis, the neighbor's outdoor cat, usually hides. Apparently, my best buddy is a good candidate for The Iron Throne!

Edited May 5, 2019 by Bannon

[SeanC]

The show version of Euron was annoying to begin with, but these spoilers just make it worse because of the ridiculous number of wins the writers are determined to give him.

[anamika]

So apparently Jaime does some betraying?

Anyways, I think now Friki's leaks have been proved to be wrong.

Tyrion's trial was not what was filmed in the dragonpit. I guess it was a great council.

[nikma]

I am the only one here who loves this ending lol.

But I really do. I always wanted tragic ending for something this popular. For me it's brave to do this. 

Let the internet explode. 

[LadyPenelope]

I’m trying not to be too much of a brat about it, but I will definitely be deciding whether or not to bother watching based on reading an episode synopsis first. This may be the point I give up on the show and wait for the (ghost written, after GRRM’s death) books. 

[stagmania]

Well, catching up on the last few days of leaks has been thoroughly depressing. But I'm glad I know, because it would be so much worse to still be holding out hope for a decent ending.

Arya has always been my favorite and it looks like she's my only hope.

[Bannon]

6 minutes ago, nikma said:

I am the only one here who loves this ending lol.

But I really do. I always wanted tragic ending for something this popular. For me it's brave to do this. 

Let the internet explode. 

Can we not at least have a competently written tragedy?

10 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I have no problem with complete tragedy. I am annoyed with complete tragedy as constructed  by people who have a command of narrative which approximates that of my labrador retriever's. I mean, he just kind of goes through his day experiencing events as if they are unconnected from each other as well.

Ok, that isn't quite fair to my dog. He can, after all, learn to look where his arch nemesis, the neighbor's outdoor cat, usually hides. Apparently, my best buddy is a good candidate for The Iron Throne!

[raven]

4 hours ago, Smad said:

The people in KL (if they were allowed to act like real people) would have celebrated Dany for killing the person who blew up the Vatikan and gladly opened the doors for her armies.

But D&D are such Lannister lovers that Cersei always wins.

This.  But these are the same guys who transported characters thousands of miles in impossibly short periods of time and then told everyone "we have to get them from point A to point B! don't think about it!".

So Tyrion has to a complete 180 of personality to keep Cersei around and everyone else acts like chumps.

The bones of a good story are there but the meat is bad, especially if all of these spoilers are true, which seems more and more likely.

Quote

Can we not at least have a competently written tragedy?

I know right??  They're not going with "power corrupts" they're going with "something shocking makes you go nuts" LOL.  Well the show made a ton of money for HBO so really they're not going to care.

[nikma]

I have no problem with the way it was written. There is a reason why there were so many mad queen theories for years. Set up was there all along.

[stagmania]

3 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I have no problem with complete tragedy. I am annoyed with complete tragedy as constructed  by people who have a command of narrative approximates that of my labrador retriever's. I mean, he just kind of goes through his day experiencing events as it they are unconnected from each other as well.

Yes, exactly this. I can deal with a sad ending that makes sense and feels like a true culmination of eight seasons of story. But that's not what these leaks are - it's just random shock value, with a million loose ends in the story that will apparently never be addressed.

Seriously, what is the point of Jon's parentage and resurrection arc? Why did they build a whole theme around Dany wanting to break the wheel? What has been the point of Tyrion's complete failure as a Hand? 

[onyxrose81]

22 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

No wonder D&D were so worried about Kit not liking the S8 scripts. "So...you don't get to kill the NK, you have to put down the woman you love like a rabid dog, you don't end up as king, and you go live as a hermit in the frozen wastes...We cool?"

When shooting began and when some interviews of Kit popped up, I mentioned that he seemed to over it. Now we all know why.  His whole storyline has added up to nothing and he ends with nothing.  He’ll still be alone.  

[Azi]

Yeah. There is tragedy and there is dumb tragedy. The first is engrossing to look at, cause it's masterfully written and acted and tears feel cathartic, the second is just painful to watch and not in a good way. 

[Minneapple]

2 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

So everyone is miserable and no ship is endgame (apart from Sam/Gilly, maybe).

So, I dunno, but I never imagined this to be a shippy work. It was never about the ships. This was always a brutal series. What did people expect from the person who wrote the Red Wedding and Ned Stark being beheaded?

9 minutes ago, SeanC said:

The show version of Euron was annoying to begin with, but these spoilers just make it worse because of the ridiculous number of wins the writers are determined to give him.

It seems he is the new Ramsey. I look forward to a brutal death for him, too.

[GraceK]

Well damn. Burn shit down Dany. She is completely justified. 

Burn them all.

[SimoneS]

This GRRM's story. He gets to end it however he wants so I don't think it matters if the ending is bittersweet or a tragedy. I just regret wasting my watching the show.

I don't agree with blaming D&D. I think the problems they had plotting the story to his ending are the same ones that Martin has faced which is why he has been unable to and likely will never complete the two final books.

Edited May 5, 2019 by SimoneS

[GraceK]

If Cersei gets to die a romantic death that’s bullshit. I want her to suffer.

[Brn2bwild]

I'm really hoping now that they did film fake scenes.

How much of this do we know is legit?  Earlier we had "spoilers" that the Golden Company would march on Winterfell right after the White Walkers and Melisandre would cause the wights to turn on the White Walkers.

[Meredith Quill]

The 'good guys' winning but losing stuff along the way = bittersweet. The good guys murdering each other and the rest surviving in a 'We may be fundamentally fucked up in our own ways but hey, at least we didn't die!' manner isn't any sort of satisfying 'winning' imo.

I'd rather see the NK win quite frankly, if we're gonna have unearned tragedy, fuck it let's go full on tragedy. Not this insipid one foot in, one foot out dumbfuckery.

I'm not even going to talk about the fuckery of giving Cersei and her toy pirate so many wins, I can't even with that nonsense.

If others can rationalise it all away good for them but this lady asserts her right to not be at all satisfied with it, not one bit.

[nikma]

This is third "holy shit" moment.

[GraceK]

How is Dany wrong for going apeshit for this? Her best friend and dragon are dead. How she is the villain here when you have Cersei doing something so horrific? That’s what I can’t fathom. This is some red wedding shit and no one is mad at Arya for murdering all the Frey’s in revenge.

Edited May 5, 2019 by GraceK

[anamika]

1 minute ago, GraceK said:

Well damn. Burn shit down Dany. She is completely justified. 

Burn them all.

She is completely justified IMO - they took everything from her.

But 'good guy' Tyrion will be standing there looking all sad - and since Tyrion is sad, Dany is evil and useless Jon will stab her and kill her and we are supposed to think all this is justified somehow.

I mean Cersei straight up has Missandei's head chopped off. We already have the baddie. Bu they need to have Dany murdered as well.  And because she is rightfully angry at Tyrion for continuing to protect Jaime and Cersei as per the leaks right?

[nikma]

1 minute ago, SilverStormm said:

others can rationalise it all away good for them but this lady asserts her right to not be at all satisfied with it, not one bit.

Yeah. I think this is important. Fandom will be devided over this and we should respect every opinion.

It's just a TV show after all.

[Meredith Quill]

1 minute ago, nikma said:

This is third "holy shit" moment.

It should be renamed to the final 'What the actual fuck' moment. Lol. In fact, to me now, it is so.