Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[GrailKing]

7 hours ago, SeanC said:

Sophie’s comment about a hair braid really doesn’t make sense because she wears a wig.

Unless the twist is Sansa getting a blonde dye job.

There was a (F)leak about  missed ID death, and Lady Charcoal, we will have 3 gingers, Mel, Sansa and Alys Karstark.

[Minneapple]

If the writers really want to hammer us with anvils the way they do, someone will point out to Dany that she killed Sam's horrible father just as Jaime killed her crazy-ass father, so maybe all should be forgiven and forgotten.

But I'm guessing that Jaime's news of Cersei not sending her army will maybe send Dany's attention in a different direction, and her ire will go toward Tyrion. That's when Sansa tells Dany that "you never should have trusted her either."

[nikma]

I think it is possible that drama about Jon's parentage will be saved for E4. It could take some time for Jon to say that to everyone.

[Eyes High]

Interview with the three Stark kids' actors from the NY Times. The interview was just published because of possible spoilers, but I'm pretty sure the actual interview predates the airing of 8x01:

Quote

It’s reunion time for the Starks and their guests, and some of this can only be awkward …

MAISIE WILLIAMS Did Sansa and Tyrion ever file for that divorce?

SOPHIE TURNER It should have been an annulment, really. But no, they never filed for a divorce or an annulment, so I guess they technically are still married! I don’t think it’s as awkward as people would say because Sansa has been through so many rocky relationships that her relationship with Tyrion actually seems pretty sweet, in retrospect. It would be nice for her to see a familiar face, especially someone who treated her well and respected her. I think that would be nice for her.

This could just be trolling (especially since the reunion we got in 8x01 was in fact awkward as hell), but assuming it isn't, Sophie Turner guesses that they're still married? Doesn't she know?

I thought the show made it pretty clear in S5 that Sansa and Tyrion were no longer married, but Tyrion did refer to Sansa as his wife in 8x01 and Sansa didn't correct him. I guess the status of Sansa and Tyrion's marriage is academic if they get back together or he gets executed, so maybe the writers will never bother to clarify.

And this is definitely trolling from Maisie, about Arya/Gendry:

Quote

What about Arya and Gendry? Would that be awkward? Or would it be fun and frolics?

WILLIAMS I think it would be kind of strange! I don’t know if Arya and Gendry have a lot in common anymore. And Arya’s never really been very good at communicating verbally how she feels on the inside anyway, and so any sort of reunion is … I mean, the one with Sansa in Season 7 couldn’t have been any more awkward! If it hadn’t been for the redeeming hug at the end, it would have just been really [expletive] icy. So yeah, I think in terms of Arya meeting characters this season, I think for her, it’s really odd! It’s weird for her to be reminded of the girl that she was, you know, and how she last felt when she was with certain characters, because I feel like she’s sort of severed that part of herself.

Edited April 15, 2019 by Eyes High

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, Minneapple said:

If the writers really want to hammer us with anvils the way they do, someone will point out to Dany that she killed Sam's horrible father just as Jaime killed her crazy-ass father, so maybe all should be forgiven and forgotten.

Whatever was shown in the preview, Dany isn't going to hold Jaime killing of her father against him so there is no need for any anvils. Dany is one of the few characters on this show who is willing to ally with former enemies and look past their differences. The words in the preview are likely Dany making that exact point to the Northerners at the council meeting by allowing Jaime to fight with them and not locking up Jaime as he deserves. Of course, the Northerners will be upset and angry since Jaime let the Lannister army against Robb, broke his word not bringing Lannister troops, and pushed Bran out the window.

Edited April 15, 2019 by SimoneS

[Minneapple]

9 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

 Whatever was shown in the preview, Dany isn't going to hold Jaime killing of her father against him so there is no need for any anvils. Dany is one of the few characters on this show who is willing to ally with former enemies and look past their differences. 

Maybe. But this one is quite personal for her so I could understand if she held it against Jaime. I mean he killed her father and left her an orphan. That sucks. 

Anyway, we won't know for sure until we see the episode next week.

[stagmania]

7 hours ago, anamika said:

Dany rallying the troops before the Battle of Winterfell? She's got to have a badass ruler moment that convinces the Northerners to follow her.

One thing last night's episode taught me: take other people's interpretations of scenes with a LARGE grain of salt. Pretty much every major Jon scene played out differently (and better!) than what I expected based on leaks. 

[Minneapple]

5 hours ago, ElizaD said:

Gendry was also interviewed somewhere sunny. The leaks about him have been so confusing that I can't remember who's claimed what, but unless they paid for an extra flight and dressed him up just for a documentary this feels like a sign that he might survive 8x03 when I would have guessed otherwise after that touching reunion.

The Gendry leaks and interviews have been all over the place and downright bizarre. He and Arya have sexual tension, no they don't, he's confused by her, she doesn't know what to make of him. Like what the fuck? The only thing I can think is that they're just trying to say stuff without really saying anything, so they just say whatever they can think of. I think that's half of what is going on with these interviews, actually.

Anyway, I finally watched the behind the scenes video. I love Emilia. She's the most adorable creature on earth. She has one of those smiles that when she smiles, you want to smile along with her. And Kit is cute as hell. It still bothers me that they have the chemistry of two rocks onscreen.

[Wouter]

It was a bit surprising (pleasantly so) to see Davos mention the obvious in ep1 already (Jon/Dany marriage), with Tyrion and Varys seemingly agreeing (though with moderate enthusiasm).

I don't think Jon and Dany would abandon the 7K if both survive in a healthy state; doesn't seem to be in-character. I could see it if Jon and/or Dany turn out to be really infertile in the end though (in the first case potentially due to his death and magic revival, in the second case due to her miscarriage), or if Dany would become infertile after losing her child. And maybe if one of them dies and the other lives.

From the ep2 preview, it looks like Dany's army is in place at Winterfell and they will meet the NK's army there. I can hardly believe they can afford to lose without losing everything, so I still think they will win regardless of how badly Winterfell gets damaged. It now seems unlikely that the GC will attack before the big battle. Maybe they attack in the aftermath, or they are saved for whatever big battle will be in ep5.

Jaime arrived totally alone in ep1. So the Riverlands will likely not come into play until ep4 at the earliest. No Edmure, for the time being.

The Tyrion/Sansa marriage seems to revert to its likely book state when they would meet again: still valid but unconsumed. They seem to be closer than the ep1 leaks made us think, though. In the ep2 promo, Sansa may be directly or indirectly defending Tyrion when she remarks to Dany that she trusted Cersei wrongly, too.

Edited April 15, 2019 by Wouter

[nikma]

I think the fact that Dany's dragons don't eat enough is set up for her not being able to use them in E3, because they will be too weak, saving big battle between dragons for KL's battle, later in the season. And that's why it took less time to shoot that battle, we have dragons there and the things happening on the ground will be in backround. 

That's why Jon will fight on foot in E3 as we saw in trailer. 

[Wouter]

14 minutes ago, nikma said:

I think the fact that Dany's dragons don't eat enough is set up for her not being able to use them in E3, because they will be too weak, saving big battle between dragons for KL's battle, later in the season. And that's why it took less time to shoot that battle, we have dragons there and the things happening on the ground will be in backround. 

That's why Jon will fight on foot in E3 as we saw in trailer. 

There should be a point to it, but Viserion will have to be neutralised somehow, so Dany's dragons may need to fight anyway.

I noticed in the ep2 preview that ballistas seem to be used, which I hope may be means to deliver dragonglass to a pretty large area (if they could make a projectile that would burst when it touches the ground). A nice weapon against wights and potentially dangerous to white walkers as well.

[nikma]

20 minutes ago, Wouter said:

There should be a point to it, but Viserion will have to be neutralised somehow,

I think the Night King won't use dragon at all in E3. I don't think the Night King will be major part of that battle. He will watch from the distance and at the end we will fly south IMO. 

I expect pyrrhic victory for Jon and Dany there. NK's goal would be just to exhaust them, so he can take the South, without them intervening. 

[Chiny11]

7 minutes ago, nikma said:

I think the Night King won't use dragon at all in E3. I don't think the Night King will be major part of that battle. He will watch from the distance and at the end we will fly south IMO. 

I expect pyrrhic victory for Jon and Dany there. NK's goal would be just to exhaust them, so he can take the South, without them intervening. 

You may be right.  However ever since it was confirmed that episode 3 is just the battle, I have been expecting the entire 1hr 22min duration of the episode to be way more than just fighting the AOTD. I am expecting viserion and the NK to show up.

BTW D&D mentioned during the “Inside The Episode” clip, that on the show only Targaryens can ride dragons. I wonder if that extends to dead dragons and if that means that the NK is a Targaryen.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, nikma said:

I think the fact that Dany's dragons don't eat enough is set up for her not being able to use them in E3, because they will be too weak, saving big battle between dragons for KL's battle, later in the season. And that's why it took less time to shoot that battle, we have dragons there and the things happening on the ground will be in backround. 

That's why Jon will fight on foot in E3 as we saw in trailer. 

I agree. There needs to be a plot reason to neutralize the dragons so that this big Winterfell battle can happen, and the dragons being weakened could be it. 

In the 8x02 promo there’s a shot of the backs of three men in cloaks on the Winterfell battlements looking at the horizon. It’s probably Jon, Sam and Dolorous Edd, and the dialogue from one of the teasers “Now it’s just us” is probably from that scene, with Jon, Sam and Edd being all that’s left of the NW (even if Jon is no longer a member).

I know that one leaker from not long ago said that there were five major character deaths in the battle, but upon reflection that seems like a skimpy allotment to me. There are so many characters who seem so obviously doomed: Jorah, Pod, Varys, Melisandre, Beric, the list goes on.

[LadyChaos]

14 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

I wonder how Dany is going to take the news about Jon. I hope he tells her soon instead of resorting to the old trope of him keeping the secret and pulling away from her leaving her confused and hurt. Say what you want about Dany, but Jon is the first guy she really seems to love without an agenda. She loved Drogo but that was created out of survival and necessity, Dario was just sex. And even though Jon is getting crap for bending the knee, Dany should get some credit for relenting and being willing to team up with him against the Night King -- even though it took Viserion's death for her to really get to that point. 

I think in the promo, when we see them in the Crypts, is him telling her.  Something Kit Harrington said, made it sound like Jon was quick to tell her right away.  It sounds like Sansa and Arya are going to be some of the last people to know before its completely outed.  Which, IMO, I think Sam will out it deliberately to show people that there is another option for the throne.

TBH, to give Tyrion a little credit, even Jaime believed that Cersei was telling the truth about helping the North and he knows Cersei better than anyone. Though he is blinded by his love for her.

[Minneapple]

1 hour ago, nikma said:

I think the Night King won't use dragon at all in E3. I don't think the Night King will be major part of that battle. He will watch from the distance and at the end we will fly south IMO. 

I expect pyrrhic victory for Jon and Dany there. NK's goal would be just to exhaust them, so he can take the South, without them intervening. 

I dunno. It's possible, but this battle has been so hugely hyped that a lack of dragon vs. dragon and the Night King would be severely disappointing. They filmed this for six weeks with Sapochnik and talked about it incessantly...and no dragons or Night King? Talk about a letdown.

I do agree that a pyrrhic victory would make sense, though. Damage the Night King's forces but he gets away.

[GraceK]

Sigh. I’m pretty concerned about Dany to be honest. She is so, so SO in love with Jon that I’m getting ominous vibes. The look Drogon gave Jon was a literal “ fuck with my mother and I’ll kill you look”, Everyone in the North hates her, Sam is gonna push Jon to take the the throne, Jon is gonna be unhappy about the Tarleys I bet in retrospect because that’s how this works 🙄, and I’m just afraid that we are heading to a place I really don’t want this to go. 😕 I better start steeling myself for the worst.

[nikma]

They can't have dragons vs dragon in that battle, because it would be pointless to have that in E5 then.

And the tact that the battle lasts that long means  dragons won't play a big part in it IMO. 

[anamika]

Ha, loved this!

Joanna Robinson (Vanity Fair), who no doubt has a shrine build to Sansa in her house and takes every chance available to criticize Emilia Clarke and Dany :

The best part was John Bradley's reply to this:

 

These are all initial opinions people have of the other characters. Sam was just told that Dany executed members of his family. Of course, SAM is going to feel that way. John Bradley obviously does not think that Dany is psychopathic.  There's a difference.

 

I wonder how Jorah comes to have Heartsbane and if Jorah and Sam end up having a discussion on Dany.

 

The article by the way:

Quote

Sam is now very, very aware that Dany is very imbalanced and very volatile and in quite a dangerous state with people,” Bradley told TheWrap in an interview Monday. “He sees with his own eyes, and is kind of connecting this to his own set of emotions, just how cold she is and how sacrificial she is in other people’s lives. And he learns the lengths that she’ll go to if somebody decides to disobey her and how her quest for power seems to know no moral code when it comes to that.”

“When she’s talking to him and she’s telling him about his own family, she’s telling him kind of without any sense of compassion at all,” Bradley says. “She comes at it in a very clinical way, and a very cold and a very detached way. And it feels psychopathic, really, that she didn’t offer him any kind of comfort at all. She says, you know, ‘They refused to bend the knee.’ And that’s a very pragmatic way of dealing with it, ‘They disobeyed me, and so I killed them.’ And in that moment he sees what a dangerous figure she is and that’s what motivates him to tell Jon.”

“[Sam] can see the trouble that she could spell, not only for Jon, but for the Seven Kingdoms in general,” Bradley said. “And also, you know, just the safety of his own family. Sam is always thinking about that. Sam is always thinking about the safety of Gilly and baby Sam. And what he was put on this earth to do is protect them. And he sees all of this put in jeopardy if we continue with this campaign of volatile, murderous, completely irrational behavior. So I think he’s very scared. He’s terrified of Daenerys after that. Terrified of what she’s capable of, and he wants to do all he can to put a stop to it.”

https://www.thewrap.com/game-of-thrones-sam-daenerys-pscyhopathic-jon-aegon-season-8-premiere/

Edited April 16, 2019 by anamika

[Lemuria]

3 hours ago, Chiny11 said:

I wonder if that extends to dead dragons and if that means that the NK is a Targaryen.

That doesn't make any sense to me.  The Children of the Forest created the NK to fight the First Men, which means it predates the rise of Valyria (and thus predates Targaryens) by a hella long time.

[Chiny11]

2 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

That doesn't make any sense to me.  The Children of the Forest created the NK to fight the First Men, which means it predates the rise of Valyria (and thus predates Targaryens) by a hella long time.

How many Night Kings have there been since then?  I thought, it was established that the current NK isn’t the original one.

[Lemuria]

I have no idea if this is mentioned in a book or in something Martin said, but I thought that there has only ever been the one.

[GraceK]

Another interesting article 

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-final-season-premiere-jon-snow-kit-harington-samwell-tarly-john-bradley-scene-explained-1202069

Outside  of Jon's status as the heir to the Iron Throne, and outside of the fact that Sam does not believe in Daenerys' worthiness as a leader, why do you feel Sam believes Jon is the right person to govern Westeros?

Aside from those two things, which are very important, I think you can look at it from a purely romantic point of view, if you like. Sam knows Jon really well. He knows his heart is in the right place. He knows he does things for the right reasons. He has a very strict moral code that he adheres to as much as he can. Sometimes he makes hard decisions. He never takes any decision lightly. He tries to do everything for the right reasons. That's the romantic view. If you want a more cynical version, of what's under the surface? Sam always has had a habit of manipulating Jon. He's manipulated him on so many other occasions. The reason he manipulates him in the past is to keep Gilly and Baby Sam safe. He manipulated him to be the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch because that was the best chance of getting Gilly and Baby Sam out of Castle Black and into the Citadel. If Jon is in a position of power, he thinks he can work on Jon to make as safe a life as possible for the people he cares the most about in the world. It's a little cynical, but I do think Sam is so hyper-intelligent and calculated that any plot he can scheme and any route he can take to keep Gilly and Baby Sam safe, he's going to do it. If Jon is in a position of power, then he can grease those wheels more easily. Those are two ways of looking at it. Take your pick!

Sam believes in Jon Snow. Jon Snow believes in Daenerys. Can Sam ever get on board with Jon's vision, or in his mind, has Daenerys crossed a line she can never come back from?

In terms of Sam telling Jon about his true claim to the throne, I think it was hurried along by what Daenerys told him. I think he definitely sees Daenerys as unstable, as a volatile character, as somebody who is determined to succeed without a real moral compass. She'll kill people for a minor act of disobedience. I think Sam is very wary of her now and sees how dangerous she can be — not just for Jon Snow, but also in terms of the entire Seven Kingdoms. We could have a Mad Queen here. Sam knows enough about history to know what people who are slightly unhinged and slightly unbalanced are like when they're in charge, and the damage they can cause. Sam has learned from the mistakes of history. He's never going to come around to Daenerys. He's too wise for that. He's too wary and suspicious of her now. If she's going to be incredibly destructive and volatile, then she could get the Seven Kingdoms into a worse position if she continues to be unyielding, impulsive and so violent. If she's going to continue dealing with things in such a violent way, then he can only see dark days ahead if she's on the throne. His desire to tell Jon about his claim to the Iron Throne is all but informed by his desire to make sure some of those dark days of the Mad King and the past reigns of imbalance never continue into the future. Sam has an agenda now. He definitely has an agenda.

Sigh. Awesome 🙄🙄🙄

[anamika]

39 minutes ago, GraceK said:

He's never going to come around to Daenerys. He's too wise for that. He's too wary and suspicious of her now. If she's going to be incredibly destructive and volatile, then she could get the Seven Kingdoms into a worse position if she continues to be unyielding, impulsive and so violent. If she's going to continue dealing with things in such a violent way, then he can only see dark days ahead if she's on the throne. His desire to tell Jon about his claim to the Iron Throne is all but informed by his desire to make sure some of those dark days of the Mad King and the past reigns of imbalance never continue into the future. Sam has an agenda now. He definitely has an agenda.

Heavy words there. Sam is NEVER going to come around on Dany?

These things would be more understandable if these characters were not so hypocritical.

This young boy sees his parents brutally slaughtered by the Wildlings and goes to Sam with his problems about Jon letting in the Wildlings. And Sam talks to him about Jon having to see the bigger picture and how he has to do this and all that.  But suddenly Dany is villain no.1 for taking out her political enemies?

Would Sam work with Tormund? Would the Starks work with Jaime who has done far worse than Dany?

Davos got a chance to point out that Tyrion killed his son, but has anyone pointed out the hypocrisy of Tyrion complaining about Dany’s use of her dragons when he has used Wildfire?

The show wants to make the point that Dany was evil for having burned the Tarlys – D&D compared merciless Dany to Sansa’s compassionate execution of LF – but I just find these to be double standards considering everything the other characters have done.

I think I can now understand why Emilia may not be a fan of the final season or how it ends for her character – the show seems to be specifically singling out and punishing the female character for her ambition and desire to be top dog. Whereas that’s the thing that Emilia most likes about Dany - that she is someone who unapologetically goes after power, takes it and uses it.

I guess we are going to see Jon calming down Dany’s ‘Impulsive, destructive, volatile, violent’ urges and show her the correct path or some such nonsense.

[GraceK]

8 minutes ago, anamika said:

Heavy words there. Sam is NEVER going to come around on Dany?

These things would be more understandable if these characters were not so hypocritical.

This young boy sees his parents brutally slaughtered by the Wildlings and goes to Sam with his problems about Jon letting in the Wildlings. And Sam talks to him about Jon having to see the bigger picture and how he has to do this and all that.  But suddenly Dany is villain no.1 for taking out her political enemies?

Would Sam work with Tormund? Would the Starks work with Jaime who has done far worse than Dany?

Davos got a chance to point out that Tyrion killed his son, but has anyone pointed out the hypocrisy of Tyrion complaining about Dany’s use of her dragons when he has used Wildfire?

The show wants to make the point that Dany was evil for having burned the Tarlys – D&D compared merciless Dany to Sansa’s compassionate execution of LF – but I just find these to be double standards considering everything the other characters have done.

I think I can now understand why Emilia may not be a fan of the final season or how it ends for her character – the show seems to be specifically singling out and punishing the female character for her ambition and desire to be top dog. Whereas that’s the thing that Emilia most likes about Dany - that she is someone who unapologetically goes after power, takes it and uses it.

I guess we are going to see Jon calming down Dany’s ‘Impulsive, destructive, volatile, violent’ urges and show her the correct path or some such nonsense.

I’m literally getting sicker by the minute. If this is the way they are going , it’s a letdown 🥺. I have never seen her character so openly in love , not since season 1, and it’s ominous the vibes I’m getting. If they actually do push this mad queen thing , over something as simple as sexism... that would be offensive. Your right, the hypocrisy in regards to her character is astounding.

[anamika]

47 minutes ago, GraceK said:

I’m literally getting sicker by the minute. If this is the way they are going , it’s a letdown 🥺. I have never seen her character so openly in love , not since season 1, and it’s ominous the vibes I’m getting. If they actually do push this mad queen thing , over something as simple as sexism... that would be offensive. Your right, the hypocrisy in regards to her character is astounding.

The audience would love it though. I just took a look at the non-book reader episode one thread and boy do they hate Dany over there. It really just pinpoints for me how much a woman is seen as entitled for going after something she thinks she deserves - when pretty much EVERY single main character does the same thing.

Dany is seen as arrogant and deserving of being humbled.  The comments about how she was more interesting and sympathetic when she was the underdog. It really is depressing how powerful female characters are still viewed.

As much as Jon is my favorite character, I would have loved for Dany to get the throne at the end - she's worked for it over 7 seasons. She's not Cersei or Tywin. She's the only character who has helped others altruistically. She has her flaws, but she's not all that worse than any other contender.

But the way things are looking, I don't think she is getting it. I don't think she is going to become the mad queen. But from Emilia's interviews I gather that Dany is going to learn that power is not all that by looking at what happened to Cersei and probably from Jon's influence and give up her claim to the throne.

But if Jon and Dany die or leave at the end then the issue continues to be - who is going to lead the efforts to lead and rebuild Westeros at the end. In the books, Jon and Dany have actual experience in this - thinkers who plan for irrigation canals and green house. But the show does not have all that.

Sansa is written as being unable to see the big picture and constantly clashes with Jon. Arya is just for fighting. Bran ... Like Sam says, I don't know what they are trying to do with Bran. Tyrion is written as a fool trusting Cersei or is possibly a traitor.

Maybe Jaime and Brienne do end up as leaders of the free world at the end of it all.

They have another 5 episodes to develop other characters as leaders if it's not going to be Jon and Dany at the end.

[Happy Harpy]

15 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I am even more sure that the leak about the Golden Company showing up was wrong. I wonder if Jaime will even mention that Cersei hired the Golden Company. I think that he will try to protect her to the end.

If Cersei sends Bronn alone to kill her brothers, it seems that she won't send the GC (1).

However, she doesn't trust Bronn. Last season, she wanted to execute him as a traitor and in the books, IIRC, she tried to get rid of him. So maybe Bronn is a decoy. Jaime knows that she has the GC but that she doesn't intend to send the GC. So she counts on Jaime to tell the alliance, but uses Bronn so that they'll think (1) and don't expect an attack.

[BadAssRobinArryn]

Yes, many male characters went after the Iron Throne as well. But even though some were clearly better than others, they were all portrayed as flawed in their own way and are pretty much all dead by now. So should it really be true that Dany decided to give up her claim for the throne, she has a better ending than all those stupid men dying because of it. I really see no sexism there, especially because the Iron Throne (or rather what it symbolises) is pretty much the root of all Evil South of the Wall. This is why I still think it will be destroyed anyway.

[BadAssRobinArryn]

7 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

If Cersei sends Bronn alone to kill her brothers, it seems that she won't send the GC (1).

However, she doesn't trust Bronn. Last season, she wanted to execute him as a traitor and in the books, IIRC, she tried to get rid of him. So maybe Bronn is a decoy. Jaime knows that she has the GC but that she doesn't intend to send the GC. So she counts on Jaime to tell the alliance, but uses Bronn so that they'll think (1) and don't expect an attack.

Or Euron could order an attack without Cersei's knowledge, Maybe after he learns that Yara has been rescued. He's definitely stupid enough. And I still think he will be dealt with before the showdown in King's Landing.

[Happy Harpy]

Imo, Jon Bradley answering the tweet of that moron journalist, as well as the use of the interrogative form in the article, suggest that he will come around.

I'd be more worried about Daenerys' endgame if everything was going seamlessly for her so far.

16 minutes ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

Or Euron could order an attack without Cersei's knowledge, Maybe after he learns that Yara has been rescued. He's definitely stupid enough. And I still think he will be dealt with before the showdown in King's Landing.

Could be, but the only article about Harry Strickland so far presented him as "Cersei's new lackey", so it seems that the GC will obey her and not Euron. They set up an animosity between the two imo, with Buffoon yapping about killing some GC men. I agree that Euron might send his own troops to the North or to raid the Riverlands, OTOH.

4 hours ago, Chiny11 said:

How many Night Kings have there been since then?  I thought, it was established that the current NK isn’t the original one.

The NK doesn't exist in the books. On the show, aside from his creating the WW/raising the dead, they only revealed how the Children created him. IIRC, the actor in that flashback scene is the one who plays the NK "nowadays" in Westeros.

Edited April 16, 2019 by Happy Harpy

[anamika]

57 minutes ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

Yes, many male characters went after the Iron Throne as well. But even though some were clearly better than others, they were all portrayed as flawed in their own way and are pretty much all dead by now. So should it really be true that Dany decided to give up her claim for the throne, she has a better ending than all those stupid men dying because of it. I really see no sexism there, especially because the Iron Throne (or rather what it symbolises) is pretty much the root of all Evil South of the Wall. This is why I still think it will be destroyed anyway.

If it was done this way, that should be fine. But I don't think the show is very good in exploring this with the way Dany is getting singled out by a whole lot of hypocritical characters who have done similar deeds as Dany or looked past the actions of other leaders.

The Iron Throne and the 7K have been around for 300 years. If the show wants to make a case that power is bad and no one should rule, now that two women are fighting over it, I hope the writing is able to explore this with more nuance than just the women being impulsive and volatile.

Edited April 16, 2019 by anamika

[Nanrad]

Yea, I definitely have fears for Dany and Jon going forward, but I don't see how Dany being entitled. But, I can see why she felt entitled to respect because who wouldn't? I would be upset if her downfall is to "humble" her oppose to some actual narrative design.

[nikma]

I think Cersei will loose a child next episode and she will be in a very different state of mind after that.

[SimoneS]

5 hours ago, anamika said:

The audience would love it though. I just took a look at the non-book reader episode one thread and boy do they hate Dany over there. It really just pinpoints for me how much a woman is seen as entitled for going after something she thinks she deserves - when pretty much EVERY single main character does the same thing.

Dany is seen as arrogant and deserving of being humbled.  The comments about how she was more interesting and sympathetic when she was the underdog. It really is depressing how powerful female characters are still viewed.

Unfortunately and unexpectedly, the misogyny is strong. One of the main reasons, I decided not to post there. I do think that D&D (and Martin) share these attitudes towards Dany which is why her claim to the Iron Throne is being ignored in the show in favor of Jon's. It is their warped version of Taming of the Shrew, the Shakespearean play that I hate the most.

3 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

Imo, Jon Bradley answering the tweet of that moron journalist, as well as the use of the interrogative form in the article, suggest that he will come around.

I'd be more worried about Daenerys' endgame if everything was going seamlessly for her so far.

I feel the same. I think that Jon Bradley is playing up Sam's irrational hatred for Dany to make it more dramatic when Dany wins over Sam. 

Edited April 16, 2019 by SimoneS

[bubble sparkly]

Jorah has to somehow end up with Sam's sword next episode right?  What are the options for how this happens?  Does Sam just fling it at Jorah with a salty "you may as well use it since all the other Tarlys capable of fighting are dead"? Does Sam end up getting over his Dany hate next episode (maybe Dany absolves Jaime and it makes Sam re-think his position)? Do Jorah and Sam have a private heart to heart and, I dunno, Sam tells hims to use the sword to protect Gilly and Little Sam? Or will Jorah save Sam in battle, then end up grabbing the sword from him to keep fighting?

[Eyes High]

13 hours ago, Wouter said:

It was a bit surprising (pleasantly so) to see Davos mention the obvious in ep1 already (Jon/Dany marriage), with Tyrion and Varys seemingly agreeing (though with moderate enthusiasm).

I don't think Jon and Dany would abandon the 7K if both survive in a healthy state; doesn't seem to be in-character. I could see it if Jon and/or Dany turn out to be really infertile in the end though (in the first case potentially due to his death and magic revival, in the second case due to her miscarriage), or if Dany would become infertile after losing her child. And maybe if one of them dies and the other lives.

From the ep2 preview, it looks like Dany's army is in place at Winterfell and they will meet the NK's army there. I can hardly believe they can afford to lose without losing everything, so I still think they will win regardless of how badly Winterfell gets damaged. It now seems unlikely that the GC will attack before the big battle. Maybe they attack in the aftermath, or they are saved for whatever big battle will be in ep5.

Jaime arrived totally alone in ep1. So the Riverlands will likely not come into play until ep4 at the earliest. No Edmure, for the time being.

The Tyrion/Sansa marriage seems to revert to its likely book state when they would meet again: still valid but unconsumed. They seem to be closer than the ep1 leaks made us think, though. In the ep2 promo, Sansa may be directly or indirectly defending Tyrion when she remarks to Dany that she trusted Cersei wrongly, too.

The status of Tyrion and Sansa’s marriage remaining ambiguous or even arguably valid points to them getting back together or one of them dying (Tyrion, if Friki’s leaks are correct), in my opinion. It’s possible that both survive and Sansa obtains an annulment (that could be the scroll Sophie stuffed in her wallet), but it really doesn’t seem likely to me.

Assuming for the sake of argument that Friki’s leaks are wrong about Tyrion, I would expect to see a lot more movement if Tyrion and Sansa are going to end up together. Gendry and Arya were eyefucking and flirting from their very first scene. Cordial and not entirely hateful is not going to cut it if there are only three episodes left to develop their relationship (eliminating the finale and the 8x03 battle episode). 

6 hours ago, anamika said:

Heavy words there. Sam is NEVER going to come around on Dany?

These things would be more understandable if these characters were not so hypocritical.

This young boy sees his parents brutally slaughtered by the Wildlings and goes to Sam with his problems about Jon letting in the Wildlings. And Sam talks to him about Jon having to see the bigger picture and how he has to do this and all that.  But suddenly Dany is villain no.1 for taking out her political enemies?

Would Sam work with Tormund? Would the Starks work with Jaime who has done far worse than Dany?

Davos got a chance to point out that Tyrion killed his son, but has anyone pointed out the hypocrisy of Tyrion complaining about Dany’s use of her dragons when he has used Wildfire?

The show wants to make the point that Dany was evil for having burned the Tarlys – D&D compared merciless Dany to Sansa’s compassionate execution of LF – but I just find these to be double standards considering everything the other characters have done.

I think I can now understand why Emilia may not be a fan of the final season or how it ends for her character – the show seems to be specifically singling out and punishing the female character for her ambition and desire to be top dog. Whereas that’s the thing that Emilia most likes about Dany - that she is someone who unapologetically goes after power, takes it and uses it.

I guess we are going to see Jon calming down Dany’s ‘Impulsive, destructive, volatile, violent’ urges and show her the correct path or some such nonsense.

Beyond Emilia’s “weird shit” and “fucked me up” comments, has she said anything else that suggested that she is displeased with the final season? There are so many interviews that it’s hard to keep track.

4 hours ago, anamika said:

The audience would love it though. I just took a look at the non-book reader episode one thread and boy do they hate Dany over there. It really just pinpoints for me how much a woman is seen as entitled for going after something she thinks she deserves - when pretty much EVERY single main character does the same thing.

Dany is seen as arrogant and deserving of being humbled.  The comments about how she was more interesting and sympathetic when she was the underdog. It really is depressing how powerful female characters are still viewed.

As much as Jon is my favorite character, I would have loved for Dany to get the throne at the end - she's worked for it over 7 seasons. She's not Cersei or Tywin. She's the only character who has helped others altruistically. She has her flaws, but she's not all that worse than any other contender.

But the way things are looking, I don't think she is getting it. I don't think she is going to become the mad queen. But from Emilia's interviews I gather that Dany is going to learn that power is not all that by looking at what happened to Cersei and probably from Jon's influence and give up her claim to the throne.

But if Jon and Dany die or leave at the end then the issue continues to be - who is going to lead the efforts to lead and rebuild Westeros at the end. In the books, Jon and Dany have actual experience in this - thinkers who plan for irrigation canals and green house. But the show does not have all that.

Sansa is written as being unable to see the big picture and constantly clashes with Jon. Arya is just for fighting. Bran ... Like Sam says, I don't know what they are trying to do with Bran. Tyrion is written as a fool trusting Cersei or is possibly a traitor.

Maybe Jaime and Brienne do end up as leaders of the free world at the end of it all.

They have another 5 episodes to develop other characters as leaders if it's not going to be Jon and Dany at the end.

Someone on a fan forum (I don’t know whether or not it was these boards) said that Jon is getting the “winner’s edit,” but if anyone is getting the “loser’s edit,” it’s Dany. If I’m sure of anything after 8x01, it’s that we’re not going to see Dany reigning by herself at the end.

[stagmania]

7 hours ago, GraceK said:

Another interesting article 

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-final-season-premiere-jon-snow-kit-harington-samwell-tarly-john-bradley-scene-explained-1202069

Outside  of Jon's status as the heir to the Iron Throne, and outside of the fact that Sam does not believe in Daenerys' worthiness as a leader, why do you feel Sam believes Jon is the right person to govern Westeros?

Aside from those two things, which are very important, I think you can look at it from a purely romantic point of view, if you like. Sam knows Jon really well. He knows his heart is in the right place. He knows he does things for the right reasons. He has a very strict moral code that he adheres to as much as he can. Sometimes he makes hard decisions. He never takes any decision lightly. He tries to do everything for the right reasons. That's the romantic view. If you want a more cynical version, of what's under the surface? Sam always has had a habit of manipulating Jon. He's manipulated him on so many other occasions. The reason he manipulates him in the past is to keep Gilly and Baby Sam safe. He manipulated him to be the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch because that was the best chance of getting Gilly and Baby Sam out of Castle Black and into the Citadel. If Jon is in a position of power, he thinks he can work on Jon to make as safe a life as possible for the people he cares the most about in the world. It's a little cynical, but I do think Sam is so hyper-intelligent and calculated that any plot he can scheme and any route he can take to keep Gilly and Baby Sam safe, he's going to do it. If Jon is in a position of power, then he can grease those wheels more easily. Those are two ways of looking at it. Take your pick!

Sam believes in Jon Snow. Jon Snow believes in Daenerys. Can Sam ever get on board with Jon's vision, or in his mind, has Daenerys crossed a line she can never come back from?

In terms of Sam telling Jon about his true claim to the throne, I think it was hurried along by what Daenerys told him. I think he definitely sees Daenerys as unstable, as a volatile character, as somebody who is determined to succeed without a real moral compass. She'll kill people for a minor act of disobedience. I think Sam is very wary of her now and sees how dangerous she can be — not just for Jon Snow, but also in terms of the entire Seven Kingdoms. We could have a Mad Queen here. Sam knows enough about history to know what people who are slightly unhinged and slightly unbalanced are like when they're in charge, and the damage they can cause. Sam has learned from the mistakes of history. He's never going to come around to Daenerys. He's too wise for that. He's too wary and suspicious of her now. If she's going to be incredibly destructive and volatile, then she could get the Seven Kingdoms into a worse position if she continues to be unyielding, impulsive and so violent. If she's going to continue dealing with things in such a violent way, then he can only see dark days ahead if she's on the throne. His desire to tell Jon about his claim to the Iron Throne is all but informed by his desire to make sure some of those dark days of the Mad King and the past reigns of imbalance never continue into the future. Sam has an agenda now. He definitely has an agenda.

Sigh. Awesome 🙄🙄🙄

Interesting interview - I like that he admits Sam is manipulative. I think most of the audience views Sam as a big fluffy puppy, but there's an edge there, and he's disregarded Jon's wishes to get what he wants more than once.

As for the Mad Queen stuff, I would honestly be surprised if they didn't go there. Her father was the Mad King, and she arrived in Westeros on dragon back and immediately started burning people! We know the context and we know her character, but none of the Westerosi do, so it only makes sense that they would fear her in that way. Sam is bound to prefer his best friend, who he trusts and knows how to manipulate, to a queen he's wary of who killed his family.

That said, I don't think that means Dany is necessarily doomed. She just has to show them who she is as a leader. For those who don't have as personal a grievance as Sam, that should be enough.

[onyxrose81]

I hope all this negativity surrounding Daenerys is just a red herring.  I don't think either she or Jon will be on the throne or even ruling at the end but I do believe they both survive.  I'm not really hyped about this season but I'm going to hold out hope for a relatively happy ending for them.  I'm glad John replied back to Joanna Robinson because you could see the glee even in her tweet. 

[Eyes High]

An interesting catch over at Freefolk:

In the Game Revealed video, there are behind the scenes shots of the Iceland shoot where Emilia is joking around with the crew, and she's wearing a different outfit than the 8x01 white fur outfit. It's the grey suede outfit with metal details from the EW full cast photoshoot. However, it wasn't for promotional photoshoots, because there have been no promotional photos released with Emilia in the grey suede outfit shot in Iceland. (The first EW photoshoot was with Kit and Emilia wearing the white fur coat in Iceland, and the EW full cast photoshoot was shot on the KL set in Belfast.) I also recall that there was talk about Kit and Emilia filming with a few local extras when they were in Iceland last year, and of course there were no other characters in the 8x01 scenes we saw, meaning that if there was a scene with extras it would have had to come from a later episode.

It seems like they filmed a scene from...8x04, I guess it would be (since I think only Nutter's DP was there and not Sapochnik's DP Fabian Wagner or the DP D&D use), since Dany's wearing a different grey outfit in 8x02 with red fur trim.

Edited April 16, 2019 by Eyes High

[nikma]

And what about Gendry in the south in that video? Does that prove that Friki was wrong about him?

[Eyes High]

40 minutes ago, nikma said:

And what about Gendry in the south in that video? Does that prove that Friki was wrong about him?

I can't tell if he's in Spain or not, but if he's not wearing that outfit in 8x03, there's your answer.

HBO content warnings are out for 8x02: adult content, adult language, and "brief nudity." 

(...The content warnings for 8x03 are going to be out of control, heh.)

Edited April 16, 2019 by Eyes High

[bubble sparkly]

Wasn’t there a casting call way back when for a flirtatious Northern girl or something? I don’t recall anyone in ep 1 standing out so I wonder if whatever this situation is will occur in ep 2? Someone propositioning Jon? Or will Bronn just find himself a new whore?

[Happy Harpy]

44 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

Wasn’t there a casting call way back when for a flirtatious Northern girl or something? I don’t recall anyone in ep 1 standing out so I wonder if whatever this situation is will occur in ep 2? Someone propositioning Jon? Or will Bronn just find himself a new whore?

More than ever after 8x01, I believe that if it happens, it's a Northern girl hitting on Gendry re: the Bella scene in the books.

[cambridgeguy]

3 hours ago, stagmania said:

As for the Mad Queen stuff, I would honestly be surprised if they didn't go there. Her father was the Mad King, and she arrived in Westeros on dragon back and immediately started burning people! We know the context and we know her character, but none of the Westerosi do, so it only makes sense that they would fear her in that way. Sam is bound to prefer his best friend, who he trusts and knows how to manipulate, to a queen he's wary of who killed his family.

That said, I don't think that means Dany is necessarily doomed. She just has to show them who she is as a leader. For those who don't have as personal a grievance as Sam, that should be enough.

I agree.  This is a world where who your parents are plays a HUGE role in how people perceive you, with the initial assumption that you're a xerox copy of them.  Unlike us the characters haven't had a chance to binge watch S1-7 (well, maybe Bran has) so all they have to go on is a lot of rumors, the legacy of Aerys, and very little first hand information.  They'll use their own prejudices to fill in the gap.  You could argue they should trust Jon, but they've already seen Ned and Robb go down in defeat thanks in part to being blindsided by southerners. 

As for Jaime, I'm not sure what he brings to the table.  He's a crappy fighter, plus Dany/Jon already have multiple experienced soldiers who can serve as generals.  It wouldn't be wise to execute him but they probably should just toss him in a dungeon for a while.  Then Tyrion can visit him in a reversal of what happened in S4, assuming that they don't end up sharing the same cell thanks to his incompetence regarding Cersei.

[go4luca]

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

As for Jaime, I'm not sure what he brings to the table.  He's a crappy fighter, plus Dany/Jon already have multiple experienced soldiers who can serve as generals.  It wouldn't be wise to execute him but they probably should just toss him in a dungeon for a while.  Then Tyrion can visit him in a reversal of what happened in S4, assuming that they don't end up sharing the same cell thanks to his incompetence regarding Cersei.

Perhaps Jaime brings to the table that people can evolve and change.  Much like has been shown during his story arc especially over the past few seasons.  Even though Cersei reneged on her offer to send troops North and has done things that horrify Jaime (balefire for the destruction of the Great Sept of Baelor & all inside), he knows Cersei better than anyone in the North.  He could turn out to be an asset.

Edited April 16, 2019 by go4luca
typo

[Wouter]

18 hours ago, nikma said:

I think the Night King won't use dragon at all in E3. I don't think the Night King will be major part of that battle. He will watch from the distance and at the end we will fly south IMO. 

I expect pyrrhic victory for Jon and Dany there. NK's goal would be just to exhaust them, so he can take the South, without them intervening. 

Interesting idea, though I think the NK will be there at least in the beginning. He may keep viserion in reserve and leave for the south at some point, possibly after the battle either seems won (cue the volantene squad arriving?) Or lost for him. 

10 hours ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

, especially because the Iron Throne (or rather what it symbolises) is pretty much the root of all Evil South of the Wall. This is why I still think it will be destroyed anyway.

The iron throne is not the root of all evil, it's merely a symbol of power. People won’t stop fighting over power because the symbols associated with power change. There was plenty of violence before the iron throne.

5 hours ago, Eyes High said:

The status of Tyrion and Sansa’s marriage remaining ambiguous or even arguably valid points to them getting back together or one of them dying (Tyrion, if Friki’s leaks are correct), in my opinion. It’s possible that both survive and Sansa obtains an annulment (that could be the scroll Sophie stuffed in her wallet), but it really doesn’t seem likely to me.

Assuming for the sake of argument that Friki’s leaks are wrong about Tyrion, I would expect to see a lot more movement if Tyrion and Sansa are going to end up together. Gendry and Arya were eyefucking and flirting from their very first scene. Cordial and not entirely hateful is not going to cut it if there are only three episodes left to develop their relationship (eliminating the finale and the 8x03 battle episode). 

If the marriage would continue, it would only be as a political union. Book Sansa is never going to actually want to marry book Tyrion, not any more than Dany wanted to marry Hizhdar. If Friki didn't get played by hbo, the point is moot as Tyrion will either be dead or disgraced should he get an ultimate pardon.

[Eyes High]

I think that Dany's big speech in multiple languages that we recently learned about will be key. She'll address the Dothraki, the Unsullied, and the Northerners together and get them pumped up. Dany's good at winning people over with speeches.

53 minutes ago, Wouter said:

If the marriage would continue, it would only be as a political union.

There's no point for Sansa and Tyrion to have a political union. Sansa has a claim to Winterfell, which is all she wants, and she never had any interest in Casterly Rock. 

I do think that there is going to be some sort of storyline with Sansa and Tyrion together, since strictly speaking they didn't have to include a Sansa/Tyrion reunion scene and they did, just as with the Arya/Gendry/Hound scene. It could be Sansa sniffing out Tyrion's treason. It could be some other kind of storyline. We don't know yet. 

Quote

If Friki didn't get played by hbo, the point is moot as Tyrion will either be dead or disgraced should he get an ultimate pardon.

If Joe Dempsie filmed that segment from the Game Revealed in Seville, that's the first potential indication that Friki got bad info: Friki's source insisted that Joe didn't film anything for 8x06 in Seville, and Joe Dempsie in that segment appeared to be in costume, with his hair cut short and dyed.

Edited April 16, 2019 by Eyes High

[whateverdgaf]

2 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

As for Jaime, I'm not sure what he brings to the table.  He's a crappy fighter, plus Dany/Jon already have multiple experienced soldiers who can serve as generals.  It wouldn't be wise to execute him but they probably should just toss him in a dungeon for a while.  Then Tyrion can visit him in a reversal of what happened in S4, assuming that they don't end up sharing the same cell thanks to his incompetence regarding Cersei.

Jon and Dany may have multiple soldiers who could serve as Generals, but Jaime is the only one known to the audience, and last season made of a point of showing Jaime's skills as a commander, probably to build up to this moment.

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, go4luca said:

Perhaps Jaime brings to the table that people can evolve and change.  Much like has been shown during his story arc especially over the past few seasons.  Even though Cersei reneged on her offer to send troops North and has done things that horrify Jaime (balefire for the destruction of the Great Sept of Baelor & all inside), he knows Cersei better than anyone in the North.  He could turn out to be an asset.

Jaime is the most disappointing character, IMO. He hasn't evolved or changed. He is the same man wrecking death and destruction for his sister even as he is supposedly horrified by her and has some affection for Brienne. And if Jaime did know Cersei better than anyone , he would have known that she never intended to keep her word and send the Lannister army. At this stage of the story, Sansa knows Cersei better than Tyrion, Jaime, and everyone in Westeros. 

20 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

Jon and Dany may have multiple soldiers who could serve as Generals, but Jaime is the only one known to the audience, and last season made of a point of showing Jaime's skills as a commander, probably to build up to this moment.

Jon and Dany have no use for Jaime. All the armies have effective commanders. Maybe there are some noncombatants and Northern peasants he can protect. Jaime has only one real use: the potential to get close to Cersei and kill her. Fingers crossed he can get that done.

Edited April 16, 2019 by SimoneS

[Eyes High]

17 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

Jon and Dany may have multiple soldiers who could serve as Generals, but Jaime is the only one known to the audience, and last season made of a point of showing Jaime's skills as a commander, probably to build up to this moment.

One of the foreign language subtitles for the trailer had Jaime bellowing "DRAW" (and not yelling "BRONN," which is what the Russian subtitles had him saying), so if he is issuing orders, then it seems like he is commanding them. I agree it doesn't make much sense, but good drama isn't always about what makes sense, and if Winterfell is being attacked by Lannister forces at some point, then Jaime commanding the other side's forces makes a lot of dramatic sense if not actual sense.

Although I've been saying that the initial frosty relationship between Dany and Sansa is good because it means that they will likely warm up to each other, I think that also applies to the relationship between Dany and the Northerners. All this initial coldness is just preamble for the moment where Dany gloriously wins them over, maybe with a fancy multilingual speech. Hopefully she won't use her previous MO of setting the haters on fire and emerging naked from the flames. I don't think that would go over as well in the North as it did with the Dothraki.