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Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

Eyes High

By Eyes High
in Game Of Thrones

Meredith Quill
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Advisory: This topic is for S8 Spoilers & Spec. If your post predominantly concerns book comparisons or a character's past season actions it will be removed. 

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nikma

nikma

I don't think  that Maisie is that involved with fandom and fan theories. We know that she was surprised that the Wall fell in S7 even if that was a very popular fan speculation for years. And we know that she was shocked while she was reading S7 script(perhaps with death of dragon and LF and both of those things very speculated in our fandom for years, they were shocking for GA for sure, but for us not so much).

So when she says this, I think she is honest, but maybe she didn't  expect that the Iron Throne will be destroyed at the end for example (even if that is an old fan  theory  or something like that. 

Interview with HBO programming president Casey Bloys.

Quote

"-Have you read all six episodes? Do you know how it ends?
They're great. It's fantastic. The fans are going to be very, very happy.


-In this era of leaving the door open for revivals or undoing finales so you can revive it down the line…
That's not happening. This story, A Song of Fire and Ice, is done. There's no revival, reboot, spinoff talk.


-So there's a definitive answer about who winds up on the Iron Throne?
I don't even want to answer that! [Laughs.] But it's exciting.

www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/hbos-casey-bloys-game-thrones-wait-big-little-lies-true-detective-returns-1074182

 

It seems that there won't be the Iron Throne at the end after all. 

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Meredith Quill
Meredith Quill

Enjoy: I laughed. 🤣

spaceghostess
spaceghostess

^This.^ Thank you.  Months ago I posted that both Dany and Jon were at the top of my death list, but it never occurred to me that (a) she'd die crazy or (b) he'd kill her because she was crazy. Y

dragonsbite
dragonsbite

oh thank god. y'all have stopped arguing about Sansa.

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anamika

anamika

(edited)
On 1/14/2018 at 3:54 PM, WindyNights said:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/times2/maisie-williams-there-were-things-i-learnt-on-game-of-thrones-that-you-could-never-learn-in-a-classroom-pz7p039g7

 

 

Ending is different than you might think. Maisie and her mom tried to guess the ending, got the ending wrong and weren't even close.

Maisie also conforms to David and Dan's view that Arya is a one-dimensional, psychopathic, bad-ass assassin whose only function in the story is to be a killer. I can't really blame her because that's how they have written her on the show. Now that the show is in the final season, the story for characters like her has to gel with what GRRM has planned for Arya, if they are planning to stick with his ending for her.  I am sure that Maisie was surprised by the ending and more specifically her ending. I am sure a lot of viewers will be surprised at the ending. 

More importantly she had this to say:

Quote

Can she answer one thing: does Arya have any hope of a normal life, after her father, mother and two of her brothers were slain horribly at the hands of Westeros’s villains? “For a lot of the previous season (7) her emotions were very cut off, she just didn’t want to hear what her family had been through,” Williams says. “I hope in the new season I get a chance to bring back a bit more of that fun child that we all fell in love with.”

After all those theories about Arya being too messed up for a normal life, I think we will begin to see the old Arya coming back, especially after she reunites with Jon. I think next season is going to be Arya's since Maisie Williams has been doing the most filming so far.

As GRRM said:

Quote

If a twelve-year old has to conquer the world, then so be it!

Edited by anamika
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WindyNights

WindyNights

(edited)
14 hours ago, anamika said:

Maisie also conforms to David and Dan's view that Arya is a one-dimensional, psychopathic, bad-ass assassin whose only function in the story is to be a killer. I can't really blame her because that's how they have written her on the show. Now that the show is in the final season, the story for characters like her has to gel with what GRRM has planned for Arya, if they are planning to stick with his ending for her.  I am sure that Maisie was surprised by the ending and more specifically her ending. I am sure a lot of viewers will be surprised at the ending. 

More importantly she had this to say:

After all those theories about Arya being too messed up for a normal life, I think we will begin to see the old Arya coming back, especially after she reunites with Jon. I think next season is going to be Arya's since Maisie Williams has been doing the most filming so far.

As GRRM said:

 

Gonna point out that GRRM has also called Arya a psychopathic 10 year old and has related her to a child soldier.

Edited by WindyNights
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anamika

anamika

7 hours ago, WindyNights said:

 

Gonna point out that GRRM has also called Arya a psychopathic 10 year old and has related her to a child soldier.

Oh, I took that to be the joke that it was meant to be. It's as hyperbolic as Dany being reduced to the 'incredibly hot chick riding a dragon'.

Child soldiers are often incredibly traumatized and react to that PTSD. Arya has shown empathy and remorse, even on the show. If GRRM thinks that is psychopathic then so be it. But is she going to continue to be 'psychopathic'? Can child soldiers never be healed?

Apparently on the show next season, we are going to be seeing the fun child that Arya was in season one and she's going to reconnect with her emotions. We are going to see the old Arya again and that's something. I am as excited as Maisie to see that Arya again.

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nikma

nikma

6 hours ago, screamin said:

Even if Maisie DID predict the ending, I can't believe the showrunners would allow her to say so and give away the fact that, yes, the ending WILL be predictable for some people...

Yes, but she said this herself. No one aksed her if she predicted the ending.

But as I said, since 99% of actors are not part of the fandom, even something we expect can be shocking to her, like the destruction of the Iron Throne. 

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Edith

Edith

(edited)

"...We last saw the crypt of Winterfell in The Spoils of War, when Sansa and Arya reunited in front of their late father’s new statue. According to our sources, at least the first two episodes of season eight will see the return of this hallowed site, which is filmed on-location at Shane’s Castle. In fact, we may return to a similar kind of scene: reportedly, in the one to be shot today and tomorrow, two main characters discuss Ned’s death.

Yesterday, Shane’s Castle also housed two starring cast members. Rather ominously, their scene ends with a horn being blown. Let’s hope it doesn’t blow three times!"

My guess: the second scene is probably between the Stark kids and the horn blow is the arrival of team Dany

The first scene is probably after Jon finds out the truth. The other main cast I hope is a Stark kid. 

"...and it seems that Winterfell’s crypt may appear during these episodes too. Game of Thrones director of photography Fabian Wagner, who is working with Miguel Sapochnik in the third and fifth episodes, happened to post a nice shot of Shane’s Castle just yesterday. 

As Sapochnik may be directing a battle in Winterfell, could his DP visiting Shane’s Castle point to Winterfell’s crypt being included in this fight against the Night King?"

An old fan speculation that might become true!

"Speaking of the (icy) devil, those who are supposed to protect the realms against the White Walkers will be back for one last hurrah. Considering last season ended with the breach of Eastwatch, the Night’s Watch’s life expectancy can’t be very promising right now, but if that’s the case they will go out fighting: our sources tell us the Night’s Watch extras have been stunt training and will shoot soon, probably next week"

Wight Edd is coming! Probably the first "big" dead of the season

http://watchersonthewall.com/nights-watch-season-8-game-of-thrones/#comments

Edited by Edith
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SeanC

SeanC

29 minutes ago, Edith said:

My guess: the second scene is probably between the Stark kids and the horn blow is the arrival of team Dany

The first scene is probably after Jon finds out the truth. The other main cast I hope is a Stark kid. 

I’d assume that the discussion of Ned’s death would probably be Jon and Arya, as a post-reunion thing.

Sophie is in Paris with her fiancé, so at a minimum Sansa’s not in these scenes.

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Edith

Edith

(edited)
4 hours ago, SeanC said:

I’d assume that the discussion of Ned’s death would probably be Jon and Arya, as a post-reunion thing.

Sophie is in Paris with her fiancé, so at a minimum Sansa’s not in these scenes.

Jon and Arya is my personal guess and preference too!

Bran maybe? Is there anything there about Isaac?

Edited by Edith
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anamika

anamika

12 hours ago, nikma said:

It's Arya and Jon. Maisie and Kit are at Belfast right now. 

Along with Joe Dempsie and John Bradley.

So Arya probably having scenes with Gendry as well. Jon/Sam back together is nice.

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nikma

nikma

(edited)

I would like to see Arya's scenes with Daenerys. With the Hound ofc. And one big scene with Jon, Sansa, Arya and Bran alone. Her interactions with Lyanna Mormont could be interesting.  There are many possibilities for great scenes at WF next year. 

 

Sansa and Tyrion. Maybe even Sansa and Varys to talk about LF. Sansa and the Hound. Gendry and Jon after Jon finds out the truth. Gendry and Daenerys could be interesting, if she knows who Gendry is. Sansa and Daenerys. Jorah and Lyanna. Jaime and Tyrion, but longer scene. Bran and Jaime. 

Edited by nikma
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Eyes High

Eyes High

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(edited)

Sophie doesn't seem to be filming very much compared to Maisie, which seems odd given that both characters are in the same location. Maybe Sansa really does die in Season 8.

Someone in the /Freefolk comments section claimed that Peter Dinklage has been in Belfast since January 3rd.

Edited by Eyes High
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Happy Harpy

Happy Harpy

16 hours ago, anamika said:

Along with Joe Dempsie and John Bradley.

So Arya probably having scenes with Gendry as well. Jon/Sam back together is nice.

Since I saw the tweet about it, I'm trying very hard not to get hyped and tell myself that it doesn't mean anything in terms of screentime. Arya interacting with Jon and Gendry again is at the very top of my list for this last season (along with some Brienne and Jaime Battle Couple awesomeness).

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anamika

anamika

5 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Sophie doesn't seem to be filming very much compared to Maisie, which seems odd given that both characters are in the same location. Maybe Sansa really does die in Season 8.

Sansa's story is done. She has killed her nemesis LF, returned home, reunited with her siblings and is in a position of power as lady of Winterfell. Unless the show is going to explore her romance with the Hound, there's not much left there. She will either show up to complain about Jon and give her expert 'advice' or talk about grain and armor.  I am guessing her plot will be an extended version of her Blackwater episode narrative. And that's not going to take all that time to film. She filmed fast last season too.

If Sophie turns up in the KL setting (Spain, I think?)  along with Kit Harington, then that could indicate a Sansa-Cersei plot.

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Edith

Edith

6 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Sophie doesn't seem to be filming very much compared to Maisie, which seems odd given that both characters are in the same location. Maybe Sansa really does die in Season 8.

Someone in the /Freefolk comments section claimed that Peter Dinklage has been in Belfast since January 3rd.

Sophie is back in Belfast. Maisie is probably filming more because she will be part of the fighting scenes. Also her stunt double (Maisie obviously) published that she was on her way to Belfast and expected to be there for a long time. 

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SeanC

SeanC

(edited)
2 hours ago, Edith said:

Ah, good to know.

Her wearing a wig again this season is confirmed then.

EDIT - Isaac Hempstead Wright, Iain Glen and Conleth Hill were all at the SAG Awards tonight, so they're evidently not filming at this moment.

Edited by SeanC
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glowbug

glowbug

2 hours ago, Minneapple said:

Is this blind item about Daenerys? Or is that too obvious? Also the bit about assuming who the babydaddy is -- for Dany it couldn't be anyone other than Jon, right?

I don't think it's Dany because there would be no question about paternity and I don't see how Dany's pregnancy would be darkly comedic. I also think it would be poor storytelling to have both Dany and Jon find out about the pregnancy off screen (which would be the case if she was already showing in the first episode) since it's going to be a big moment for both of them, regardless of if they know about Jon's parentage, and it will be even more complicated if they do. I'd say a time jump that large is also unlikely given the wall has already come down but the way the show runners disregard time I wouldn't put it past them.

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BitterApple

BitterApple

I really hope the showrunners don't screw the viewers over by having the pregnancy discussion take place off screen. Although either way, massive time jumps are inevitable if we're going from boat sex to full term pregnancy in a matter of six episodes. The plotline feeling crunched and rushed was one of my biggest pet peeves for S7, and it's probably going to be worse for S8. 

I think the major issue with an off-screen reveal and big time jump prior to the S8 premiere, is the writers would have to figure out what to do with the Night King and his Army. Presumably if they were marching for months they would've already arrived at Winterfell by S8 E01. I know they walk at a snail's pace, but still....

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YaddaYadda

YaddaYadda

10 hours ago, BitterApple said:

I think the major issue with an off-screen reveal and big time jump prior to the S8 premiere, is the writers would have to figure out what to do with the Night King and his Army. Presumably if they were marching for months they would've already arrived at Winterfell by S8 E01. I know they walk at a snail's pace, but still....

I think the best way they could do this is say that Bran's vision at the end of season 7 is the time jump. Jon and Dany and their entourage would have been at Winterfell for a while before the NK demolished Eastwatch. I still find that whole ending stupid.

Night shoot at Winterfell

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GraceK

GraceK

2 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

I think the best way they could do this is say that Bran's vision at the end of season 7 is the time jump. Jon and Dany and their entourage would have been at Winterfell for a while before the NK demolished Eastwatch. I still find that whole ending stupid.

Night shoot at Winterfell

What do you think of these night shoots? 

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Eyes High

Eyes High

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(edited)
On 1/26/2018 at 2:45 PM, Minneapple said:

Is this blind item about Daenerys? Or is that too obvious? Also the bit about assuming who the babydaddy is -- for Dany it couldn't be anyone other than Jon, right?

The blind item's probably about Big Little Lies. The blind comments that the plan to reveal the character with a pregnancy is "as always, subject to change," something we know that's not true of GOT, and is likely a cheeky reference to the fact that Big Little Lies was originally planned as a miniseries and only got a second season due to the overwhelming response.

 

4 hours ago, GraceK said:

What do you think of these night shoots? 

Someone on /Freefolk linked to the Instagram account of a GOT makeup artist who comments that she'll be "nocturnal" for the next three months, tagging it #nightshoots. Three months for what, exactly? I can't imagine it would take three months to film the battle of Winterfell stuff, but then, I think it took close to a month for the BOTB filming, and that only took up about a third of an episode, so...

Edited by Eyes High
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BitterApple

BitterApple

(edited)
1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

The night shoot are a great scoop. If it is the Lannisters attacking Winterfell, then Cersei is even stupider than she usually is, no surprise there.

One of the leaks I heard on a popular YouTube vlogger's channel is that it's the Golden Company who attacks Winterfell. Take with a grain of salt, of course. 

I know we left off last season with the major players sailing for the North, but is Dany planning on moving the Dothraki and Unsullied up there as well? Between the soldiers, horses and dragons that seems like an insane amount of creatures to keep fed and housed in the middle of winter. There's no way all the grain Sansa borrowed can keep everyone afloat. 

Edited by BitterApple
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anamika

anamika

(edited)
On 1/22/2018 at 12:26 PM, OhOkayWhat said:

In my opinion, to explore it, they'll need to create it first.

And I think they can create it in 5 minutes in the first episode.  This is the show we are talking about. Things are moving at breakneck speed. We had that one line from the Hound last season about hating gingers or some such nonsense. That's the Hound's shtick - telling the opposite of what he actually means.

Like LF, the Hound is an important character in Sansa's story in the books. If these characters meet, the show cannot ignore that in the books Sansa is imagining kisses with him.

I think I am one of the rare posters here or indeed anywhere in fandom who is pretty sure that Sansa is not going to end up in charge of Winterfell. Going off the books, she is the person least qualified to do so, when Jon, Arya and Bran are hanging around. Even if Rickon is killed off and Bran gives up his prince of WF title, Arya is the only person (along with Jon) who thinks like Ned, the only Stark who has the Stark look and is a stereotypical female leader of the North like the Mormont girls, Wylla Manderly, Alys Karstark etc. I think that If the show sticks with GRRM's ending, Arya would be the person who continues the Ned/Stark legacy in the North. 

If this is the case and Arya/Bran/Rickon end up in charge of WF in the books, what would Sansa be doing?  Either she dies taking down LF or she ends up with the Hound. Possibly Lady of the Vale if she does marry Harry the Heir. But the show seems to have reduced the Vale to just Royce and his army.  I think her marriage with Tyrion is a done deal as the show seems to not give it any importance, Tyrion made it a point to stress that their marriage was a sham marriage and he seems to be having feelings for Dany.  

That leaves the Hound. Why did GRRM even write their relationship if it is not even addressed anymore? And considering that they will be meeting next season, surely we can assume that the show will address it? 

12 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

Sounds like a bid to keep Cersei relevant which I find extremely annoying. Girlfriend has overstayed her welcome. She needs to go.

Pretty much. Cersei needs something to do. I guess she sends her men to attack WF while Dany/Jon are elsewhere attacking WW.

Edited by anamika
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SeanC

SeanC

11 hours ago, anamika said:

And I think they can create it in 5 minutes in the first episode.  This is the show we are talking about. Things are moving at breakneck speed. We had that one line from the Hound last season about hating gingers or some such nonsense. That's the Hound's shtick - telling the opposite of what he actually means.

Like LF, the Hound is an important character in Sansa's story in the books. If these characters meet, the show cannot ignore that in the books Sansa is imagining kisses with him.

I think I am one of the rare posters here or indeed anywhere in fandom who is pretty sure that Sansa is not going to end up in charge of Winterfell. Going off the books, she is the person least qualified to do so, when Jon, Arya and Bran are hanging around. Even if Rickon is killed off and Bran gives up his prince of WF title, Arya is the only person (along with Jon) who thinks like Ned, the only Stark who has the Stark look and is a stereotypical female leader of the North like the Mormont girls, Wylla Manderly, Alys Karstark etc. I think that If the show sticks with GRRM's ending, Arya would be the person who continues the Ned/Stark legacy in the North. 

If this is the case and Arya/Bran/Rickon end up in charge of WF in the books, what would Sansa be doing?  Either she dies taking down LF or she ends up with the Hound. Possibly Lady of the Vale if she does marry Harry the Heir. But the show seems to have reduced the Vale to just Royce and his army.  I think her marriage with Tyrion is a done deal as the show seems to not give it any importance, Tyrion made it a point to stress that their marriage was a sham marriage and he seems to be having feelings for Dany.  

That leaves the Hound. Why did GRRM even write their relationship if it is not even addressed anymore? And considering that they will be meeting next season, surely we can assume that the show will address it? 

As far as Sansa/Sandor goes, that's one of the biggest remaining question marks for me.  Because purely by looking at the books, you would expect it to be significant to however Sansa's story ends.  Conversely, in the show it's a complete non-entity, and pretty much was even when the two characters were in the same place and occasionally had scenes together.  There's a reason that pretty much all of the show-only fan/media discourse is around Arya reuniting with the Hound in Season 8.

In general, the logic that if you assume this is important to the book endgame it will correspondingly be in the show in some form holds some weight.  It's just weird to talk about in this instance because the writers have done nothing whatsoever to keep the characters' relationship (what little there was in the show) in the audience's mind.  Even if you assume that the writers toned down their scenes in the first two seasons because of Sophie's age at the time, that wouldn't be a bar to having them talk about each other after they were separate.  But nothing of the sort was done.  It's at the point where I expect that the response from the general audience is going to be a big "huh?" if it does happen.

None of that rules it out, of course, but it's so different from the show writers' normal approach to things that I have no idea why they would choose to tell it this way.

Unrelatedly, I'm not sure why you see Sansa being in charge of Winterfell and being with the Hound as an either/or situation.  Sansa's arc in the books is pointing her home, every bit as much as the show's eventually did.  Whether in charge or not, or in a relationship or not, she would simply be at home with her siblings, doing her own part to help the family run things. 

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MarySNJ

MarySNJ

On 1/27/2018 at 4:23 PM, Eyes High said:

Someone on /Freefolk linked to the Instagram account of a GOT makeup artist who comments that she'll be "nocturnal" for the next three months, tagging it #nightshoots. Three months for what, exactly? I can't imagine it would take three months to film the battle of Winterfell stuff, but then, I think it took close to a month for the BOTB filming, and that only took up about a third of an episode, so...

Interesting! The original Long Night was all in darkness, wasn't it? Maybe the advance of the White Walkers and the Night King also brings the darkness.

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SeanC

SeanC

25 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

Interesting! The original Long Night was all in darkness, wasn't it? Maybe the advance of the White Walkers and the Night King also brings the darkness.

I was wondering the same.  That would certainly fit best as far with the alleged duration of the shooting.

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anamika

anamika

(edited)
5 hours ago, SeanC said:

Unrelatedly, I'm not sure why you see Sansa being in charge of Winterfell and being with the Hound as an either/or situation.  Sansa's arc in the books is pointing her home, every bit as much as the show's eventually did.  Whether in charge or not, or in a relationship or not, she would simply be at home with her siblings, doing her own part to help the family run things. 

Because it's very hard for me to see book Sansa in charge of WF. On the show, they have mutated the Northerners into disloyal lords even worse than the Southerners, reduced Arya to a dumb, psycho executioner, Bran to just the 3ER who is only there for some exposition and Jon should ask for Sansa's 'advice' before he can proceed because he's apparently such a noob when it comes to politics. This is in stark (heh!) contrast to the characters in the books - where Arya often thinks on Ned's teachings ( Lone wolf dies, pack survives - notice how the give this line of dialogue to Sansa on the show?, Ned eating with his men getting to know them and Arya sitting with him, Arya mingling with the small folk, Man who passes the sentence, swings the sword etc.) and Bran is not going to turn into whatever that is on the show - GRRM already finds Bran a hard character to write - imagine him having to write the show version! And as we know well from ADwD, Jon is very politically savvy, pragmatic and smart and does not need any advice from Sansa to rule over the North.

On the show they had to take away from Bran, Arya and Jon to fit Sansa in there and give her something to do. Trying to fit Sansa in there is why the North plot has been illogical and terribly written ever since Sansa got there. That's why everyone around Sansa has to act dumb and disloyal and we have contrived scenes where Sansa educates Royce about castles and armor and the only useful thing she did last season was talk about grain - something Jon is already doing in the books.

'Smart' Sansa is so contrived that it makes me cringe every time she has a scene. Take the scene where Jon is discussing Tyrion's letter with Sansa and Davos. Davos points out the useful bit of information in there - dragons - dragonfire - wight/WW fighting weapon. Then Jon has to ask Sansa about Tyrion because otherwise he is going to be sexist or patriarchal or some such nonsense and Sansa's sage advice is that Tyrion is not like the other Lannisters. I would have loved Jon to have rolled his eyes there - Of course, Tyrion is not like the other Lannisters  - Jon befriended him and they even have secret code words ('all dwarves are bastards in their father's eyes'). I can't recollect one piece of useful advice that Sansa has given Jon - which Davos has been consistently doing.  She is just so superfluous. It's more like David and Dan are building up Davos to be Hand of the King as opposed to Sansa being a smart adviser and ruler.

As GRRM pointed out in that video that Sansa fans like to link to, Sansa is learning to use her wits and move people around like chess pieces in the Vale - to be a player of the game like LF - and I think that we are not going to get a LF in charge of the North. Sansa is not a leader - in 5 books she has never been a leader. GRRM has made a case for Jon, Arya, Bran and Dany to take over as leaders - but not Sansa. She could be useful as someone playing the game behind the scenes.

Now if this is the case, how would Sansa fit into the North. I could see Sansa sticking around if Rickon/Bran survive in the books and is made Lord of Winterfell/Warden of the North/KITN .  But what then would be her story? Just be single and enjoy life? Or be married to the Hound, help her family run things and enjoy life? Now this is possible in the books, but the show has killed off Rickon and changed Bran, Arya and the North to suit their 'Sansa is Lady of WF' narrative.  Which she is, currently. Now, she can end the series as Lady of Winterfell/Wardeness of the North and marry the Hound and have lots of red haired babies named Stark - that's possible. But it's just hard for me to see that happening in the books - Like I mentioned earlier , I don't see the point of LF style politics or leadership in the North.

So if the show has to stick to the book ending (Where I don't think Sansa is going end up in charge of WF) then Sansa has to either renounce her position - which I don't see happening on the show, she dies or she goes  off to live a happy life with the Hound and becomes a member of house Clegane. If she marries the Hound, I don't see her sticking around WF - what's the point?

5 hours ago, SeanC said:

  Conversely, in the show it's a complete non-entity, and pretty much was even when the two characters were in the same place and occasionally had scenes together.  There's a reason that pretty much all of the show-only fan/media discourse is around Arya reuniting with the Hound in Season 8.

This could just be because David and Dan are terrible writers - take into consideration how the side characters in Arya's story never mention Arya to Jon last season or how Theon and Jon talk about Ned instead of Robb.  As book readers know, Arya and Ghost are two characters who are very important to Jon's narrative. But one character is almost non-existent and Jon never mentions the other. Show-only fans and media discourse would not hold much importance in these characters meeting/reuniting again - indeed as we know, there are some fans/show only watchers who think Jon reuniting back with Sansa is what's important. It's only book readers who are all about the Jon-Arya reunion and who are missing Ghost. And I know there are some fans over at Westeros.org eagerly waiting for Sansa and the Hound to meet again! I am not a fan of Sansa's relationship with the hound, but he is what Sansa desires in the books and if the show wants to be faithful to that, then they have to atleast address it and give some closure to this relationship. Not ignore it entirely. 

Edited by anamika
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bubble sparkly

bubble sparkly

If Sansa’s endgame does involve marriage, then I think it could be any guy (apart from Jon or Bran etc.) even some random we haven’t met yet. I agree that SanSan on the tv show has been pretty nonexistent, so they can easily chuck someone at her. On the other hand, they could always have Sandor declare his undying love the moment he sees Sansa again, so who knows.

Known character marriage prospects I guess you would have: Tyrion, Hound, Pod, Theon, Robin A, Gendry. I assume Davos and that Royce guy etc are disqualified due to age.

Honestly, they could also pull some random dude in the last episode (a Tyrell cousin, a Royce son, a Northern lad etc) who is the as yet unseen heir to a decent house. Say it’s a political match with a dude who isn’t a creepy rapist, that Sansa has chosen herself.

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screamin

screamin

I really don't think Sansa and the Hound are going to end up an item, either in books or on show. Yes, in the books she's hung some erotic fantasies on the twisted peg of her memories of him lying on top of her with his knife to her throat, because even though he was creepy and psycho, he was really the only one who offered her some genuine lifesaving help and support at the most difficult time of her life, without trying to manipulate her for his own gain. Yes, he was scary and dangerous, but everyone around her in KL was scary and dangerous. She felt an attraction, but I don't think this amounts to love on her part, or on his.

In the books, the last time we see him he's a gravedigger for a septon, who seemed content to let his part of the story end there, uncaring of Sansa being alive out there somewhere, maybe needing his help. I'd guess that in the book AND on the show the endgame for the Hound will be the long delayed face-off with his brother. Currently in the books, the gravedigger thinks his brother is dead. When he finds out that's not true, he may be galvanized into his last battle, which will probably end him as well. I don't see anything in the show that indicates the Hound's ending there would be any different.

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OhOkayWhat

OhOkayWhat

4 hours ago, anamika said:

Jon is very politically savvy, pragmatic and smart...

Maybe that is the case of Book!Jon, but he is not Show!Jon. Show!Jon is consistent with himself. And it doesn't mean bad writing. 

 

4 hours ago, anamika said:

Trying to fit Sansa in there is why the North plot has been illogical and terribly written ever since Sansa got there.

Almost everything makes sense within the North plot in the last seasons. Last season was rushed, but it makes writing sense if we look at the show!characters being consistent with themselves.

 

4 hours ago, anamika said:

This could just be because David and Dan are terrible writers

Why? They chose to write their own version of Arya and Sandor Clegane (non-romantic) relationship and they are consistently writing about them season after season.

Therefore, from many possible side characters conversations about her, they chose to write the one with one of the most important characters (Sandor) within her show!story. And Sandor talks about the most important character within his show!story: Arya.

 

4 hours ago, anamika said:

and if the show wants to be faithful to that,

Maybe that is the core of all this. They chose don't be faithful to that part of the original work in their adaptation. It doesn't mean that is bad writing.

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ElizaD

ElizaD

4 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

If Sansa’s endgame does involve marriage, then I think it could be any guy (apart from Jon or Bran etc.) even some random we haven’t met yet. I agree that SanSan on the tv show has been pretty nonexistent, so they can easily chuck someone at her. On the other hand, they could always have Sandor declare his undying love the moment he sees Sansa again, so who knows.

I believe that the way the show has treated Sansan, compared to the unsubtle way it handles the foreshadowing and buildup of events and romances (Jon/Dany) that actually happen, has essentially confirmed that Sansan won't be a thing (on the other hand, the show totally has me and almost every non-reader expecting an Arya/Sandor reunion in season 8, since she's the one they wanted to show him discussing with Sansa's protector Brienne). It's just become a (the?) big romance of the books because GRRM sucks at writing romance and there are no real appealing alternatives pre-book Jon/Dany due to endless imbalances of power/age/degree of emotional attachment, so readers have latched on to the familiarity of a beauty and the beast story based on a misremembered kiss and Sandor saying he should have raped her before leaving her to the Imp. Similarly, Show Tyrion's dismissal of his marriage as a farce and Sansa's nonromantic references to him as a good man have made me think that the marriage will come to a cordial end. Since the showrunners say they're heading for GRRM's ending through different roads, I believe Sansa's only viable options now are dead, unmarried or married True Blood-style to a random man who only matters as a sign that she's chosen a suitable consort as the Lady of Winterfell and will continue the line with what we can assume is a nice man who will support her in her duties as the new head of the house.

Sandor will turn out to be like a less important Littlefinger: someone who helps Sansa let go of a few of her more childish notions of how the world works while she's on her way to becoming the person she'll grow up to be. Littlefinger is her mentor and enemy so she will have to confront and overcome him in a more obvious way before whatever her final fate turns out to be, but it's easy for Sandor to simply vanish from her narrative and nothing will be left unexplained or unfinished: she'll either choose to stay single because of her bigger (un)romantic experiences of Tyrion/Littlefinger/being sought for her claim and not herself (something that may have influenced the show's decision to add the trauma of the Ramsay marriage, because if she's fated to be single here's an extra reason for the viewers), or she'll have a marriage that's only important because it says she's now made herself the one who holds the power and does the choosing based on what she wants to make of her life.

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anamika

anamika

4 hours ago, screamin said:

I really don't think Sansa and the Hound are going to end up an item, either in books or on show. Yes, in the books she's hung some erotic fantasies on the twisted peg of her memories of him lying on top of her with his knife to her throat, because even though he was creepy and psycho, he was really the only one who offered her some genuine lifesaving help and support at the most difficult time of her life, without trying to manipulate her for his own gain. Yes, he was scary and dangerous, but everyone around her in KL was scary and dangerous. She felt an attraction, but I don't think this amounts to love on her part, or on his.

See, I think it does not matter if a certain segment of his readers find the 'romance' creepy and abusive. What matters is how GRRM views his version of beauty and the beast in the series. I mean, this is the guy who thinks that Dany/Drogo is a romantic love story despite writing Dany crying into her pillows and contemplating suicide after being forced into sex by Drogo. The show acknowledged that Dany was raped, but not according to GRRM. Similarly there is an element of coercion in the Jon/Ygritte romance as well.  I would not be surprised if he sees SanSan the same way - as ElizaD mentions above GRRM is very bad at writing romance - his 'romance'  always borders on being creepy and abusive with rapey vibes. I mean look at the fan favorite Jaime/Brienne relationship - Jaime spends most of his time verbally abusing Brienne, disparaging her every chance he gets in ASoS. I don't know what GRRM thinks of SanSan and how important it is in the books - only that the Hound is an important part of Sansa's story in the books and the relationship has many fans. If both characters meet next season and the show fails to address it or even hint at it, that would be just really, really super weird.

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Eyes High

Eyes High

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7 hours ago, ElizaD said:

I believe that the way the show has treated Sansan, compared to the unsubtle way it handles the foreshadowing and buildup of events and romances (Jon/Dany) that actually happen, has essentially confirmed that Sansan won't be a thing 

That, and depending on how you interpret Bryan Cogman's comments from the 6x07 DVD commentary, Cogman may have inadvertently admitted that the writers don't know what's supposed to happen to Sandor in the books post-AFFC, and that therefore whatever role Sandor plays in future books, he won't be a part of Sansa's endgame.

 

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Since the showrunners say they're heading for GRRM's ending through different roads, I believe Sansa's only viable options now are dead, unmarried or married True Blood-style (...)

I'm leaning more towards "dead" these days and if Sansa does indeed die, I'm not surprised D&D have pretty much eliminated SanSan from the show.

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SeanC

SeanC

(edited)
22 hours ago, anamika said:

If she marries the Hound, I don't see her sticking around WF - what's the point?

The point would be that Winterfell is her home.  Where else would she go?  The Clegane family's historic small keep in the Westerlands that not even the Hound himself has ever spoken of any particular attachment to?  Sansa's arc has repeatedly featured her quite literally walking in her parents' footsteps, and Wintefell and the Stark identity looms large throughout.  She's going back there to stay, one way or another.

Show-only fans and media discourse would not hold much importance in these characters meeting/reuniting again - indeed as we know, there are some fans/show only watchers who think Jon reuniting back with Sansa is what's important. It's only book readers who are all about the Jon-Arya reunion and who are missing Ghost. 

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You'll get no argument that the show's handling of Jon's non-reaction to Arya has been weird, but I don't think it's true that non-readers don't care about them meeting again, judging by reactions.  Not to mention, Season 7 did push the idea (mainly on Arya's end) of them reuniting in such a way that has generated more fan anticipation.

The unimportance of Ghost is just a reflection of the more general relegation of the direwolves to vestigial status because of Ser Budget.

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Via /Freefolk: someone  spotted Tormund, Brienne, Jorah, Podrick, Sam (???) and Gendry's actors at the airport together. Could they be headed to Iceland as well?

WOTW's Luka speculated that Sam's presence suggests more likely that Iceland will be used for at least some shooting south of the Wall, but I think that could go either way.

Relating to the above discussion, fans of SanSan can, I suppose, take hope from the fact that the Hound is seemingly not trudging around with these people.

Edited by SeanC
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CherithCutestory

CherithCutestory

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On 1/28/2018 at 8:27 PM, anamika said:

So if the show has to stick to the book ending (Where I don't think Sansa is going end up in charge of WF) then Sansa has to either renounce her position - which I don't see happening on the show, she dies or she goes  off to live a happy life with the Hound and becomes a member of house Clegane. If she marries the Hound, I don't see her sticking around WF - what's the point?

Sansa is clearly going to be in charge of WF at the end in the books. Or whatever is left of it. All of the talk of her being the heir of Winterfell, her literally rebuilding Winterfell from memory in snow, Jon repeatedly saying Winterfell belongs to his sister, Sansa, to Stannis, the castle made of snow where she'll slay her giant, her thrill of seeing snow again, her liking the windows open when it snows just like Ned. The books have been foreshadowing that for a long time.

And there is no way she is going to go off to be part of a minor house in the Westerlands in the show. That just won't happen. She'll die in Winterfell before she'll go off to live in the Westerlands at a keep neither she nor the Hound give a damn about after spending three seasons being all about returning to the North.

All that being said, Sansa has already renounced her position. She immediately tried to abdicate as soon as Bran returned home. But he refused. Before that she offered Jon the Lord's chambers before he was elected king. She has been pretty consistent that she is willing to give up the leadership position. But she isn't willing to leave her home.

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, I don't see the point of LF style politics or leadership in the North.

They still have to deal with the South and LF wasn't her only teacher. It's not her only lessons. She isn't like LF. She chose loyalty and family in the end. Just like a Stark. And will do so when she slays him in the books.

But being savvy has a lot to do with any politics even in the North. Robb was betrayed by Northerners (the Boltons.) Robb's stupidity and failure to play politics alienated the Karstarks. In both books and shows knowing how to be somewhat politic would have served Ned and Robb well even in the North. And the North still has to have dealings with the south. And to rebuild after being devastated by WW/Others will require some economic thinking.

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I can't recollect one piece of useful advice that Sansa has given Jon - which Davos has been consistently doing.  She is just so superfluous. It's more like David and Dan are building up Davos to be Hand of the King as opposed to Sansa being a smart adviser and ruler.

That's ridiculous. Sansa warned Jon against Cersei and ignoring that advice led him to handing a dragon to the Night King and making an idiotic deal with Cersei Lannister. She told him that Cersei will always find a way to kill her enemies first and foremost and how dangerous she was. She would have told him more but he refused to listen. Now the Wall has been shattered because of his refusal to listen. She warned Jon that Ramsay was a master manipulator. She told Jon not to restore the Umbers and Karstarks and now children are the first line of defense against WW/Others. Which is just such pure stupidity it's unfathomable that Jon allowed it to happen since he knows the danger.

Not to mention Sansa actually making plans for grain to be in Winterfell something Jon failed to do.

I love Davos but he didn't tell Jon how stupid every single action he took in Season 7 was so he's been essentially useless as an adviser. The world is a much worse place because of Jon's choices after season 7. More people will die by WW because of Jon's foolish and impulsive choice to capture a wight to a provide evidence to a woman who would never listen. Something Sansa warned him about at the very start. Davos supported those choices. Sansa warned him otherwise.

And kings shouldn't travel to be their own messengers. Davos's advice that Jon go was unfathomable except they had to get Jon laid by the end. And they were PRISONERS for a long time because of Davos's bad advice. Jon was even frustrated at being trapped on Dragonstone. Eventually Dany came around because she thought he was cute. But Davos couldn't know that would happen. His advice that a king surrender himself as captive to a foreign ruler was incredibly dumb. The deal for dragonglass should have been worked out by his envoy. And only then should the king appear to seal the deal. This wasn't exactly a banner year for Davos's advice since all of his advice was wrong. And lead to world ending heartbreak.

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something Jon is already doing in the books.

Jon is getting a loan from the IRON BANK to get grain in the books. That's something sure to backfire sooner rather than later. Let's not pretend that's some wise decision on Jon's part that shows what an intelligent ruler he is. That's the act of a desperate man with no real world experience. He has no way of repaying that loan and the IB always relcaims their debts.

Almost all of the examples of Jon being "savvy" in the books are actually examples of stupid decisions he makes which ultimately leads to his death.

 

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Arya is the only person (along with Jon) who thinks like Ned, the only Stark who has the Stark look and is a stereotypical female leader of the North like the Mormont girls, Wylla Manderly, Alys Karstark etc. I think that If the show sticks with GRRM's ending, Arya would be the person who continues the Ned/Stark legacy in the North. 

Arya is nothing like Ned. She wants to be like Ned. But Arya is her mother through and through. Not superficially but underneath she is very much her mother. She is short-sighted, vindictive, holds grudges long past the time she should. It's why the show was so easily able to just hand Cat's storyline to Arya. They are the same character. Cat was more superficially a lady. But underneath they are made of the same stuff. It's always been the irony that despite their appearances and preferences Sansa is more like Ned and Arya is more like Cat. 

Who is more likely to have a kill list? Ned or the woman who became Lady Stoneheart? Ned's impulsiveness was to save lives. Cat's to avenge her family. Who is more likely to utilize the opportunity to have Jaqen murder their foes for them? Ned or Cat? If Ned killed a man of the Night's Watch for abandoning would he do it in the dark and then steal his boots?

By contrast, Sansa is much like Ned. She wants to be the epitome of virtue for her gender just as Ned is for his gender. And, yes, women and men are supposed to be different so they exhibit their virtue in different ways. But she sticks her neck out even for Dontos. She worries over whether Margaery will be hurt by Joffrey even though warning her might mean Sansa has to be with him again. Because not warning her wouldn't be honest like Ned is. She feels pity even for Joffrey's death just as Ned is revolted by improper deaths for even his worst enemies (Aerys killed his father and brother but he is still disgusted by Jaime's actions in murdering him just as Sansa is disgusted by how Joff died.) Even though Marillion tried to rape her she is guiltridden over framing him (compare to Arya who had a man murdered for being a mean boss.) She doesn't think in terms of vengeance just as Ned never did. He father and brother died but he doesn't have a harsh word toward Targs. Yes, she could be a brat when she was eleven years old. But since then she has consistently held onto the values of her father even with Petyr breathing in her ear. She doesn't slit men's throats in the dark and then steal their boots.

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That, and depending on how you interpret Bryan Cogman's comments from the 6x07 DVD commentary, Cogman may have inadvertently admitted that the writers don't know what's supposed to happen to Sandor in the books post-AFFC, and that therefore whatever role Sandor plays in future books, he won't be a part of Sansa's endgame.

I don't think there was ever any chance of them ending up together in the books. The Hound is basically a zombie now.

I think GRRM is an empathetic enough writer to understand how infatuation can shape people without meaning they are fated to be together. Their interactions had meaning because it made Sansa fantasize about someone who wasn't a perfect prince. Meaning she can see through the likes of Harry who would have gotten her before. And it impacted how the Hound put up with Arya, at first.

And going back to another discussion, I do think Winterfell will fall. But they'll be able to retreat into the crypts. WF will have to be rebuilt along with everything else. The Starks began as builders not just warriors. So, that will be OK.

Edited by CherithCutestory
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