Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[nikma]

I like everything he said about the last season.

[anamika]

lol, I notice that someone used parts of my interview recap on FF. Like we browse FF, they seem to be browsing here as well.

5 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

It seems a bit weird to me that Jon and Dany ruling together doesn't appear to be speculated about too much by the major media / podcasts etc.  Even all this betting stuff about who ends up on the throne only seems to have one-person options.  Given how s7 ended, I would have thought there would have been a lot more media spec about J/D ruling jointly (as there has been in fandom).

That's the thing. Quite a few folks think that Jon/Dany will not end up on the throne - because he/she's the noble hero who will sacrifice themselves in the end, Dany getting what she wants is a happy ending which is not allowed for Dany, Dany is too evil to win, secret prince Jon becoming king is a trope, it's too predictable, disney ending, subverting tropes, GOT kills everyone, good guys die, IT will not exist etc.

Someone pointed out this season 3 promo with a red priestess seemingly making it clear that ice=death and fire = life.

Edited December 22, 2018 by anamika

[GrailKing]

4 hours ago, anamika said:

Someone pointed out this season 3 promo with a red priestess seemingly making it clear that ice=death and fire = life.

GRRM says both, but also adds Ice preserves.

If we were representing fire we probably say the same, but Frost is correct; both kill just as well.

[Eyes High]

13 hours ago, anamika said:

It's interesting that D&D thought that Kit must have completely hated what they did with Jon Snow and that's why he did not call them after reading the scripts.

Hmm. Not sure what to make of that, although I doubt Hibberd would have included that tidbit if it were somehow suggestive of Jon's fate.

Quote

Hibberd says that we know that Gendry has a key role to play in the final season.

Reforging Ice, maybe...?

Thanks for the summary. I tried to listen to the podcast, but the interviewer was just too annoying.

[whateverdgaf]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Reforging Ice, maybe...?

I doubt Ice would be reforged. It would be impractical to turn two usable Valyrian steel swords into one cumbersome one when fighting against the White Walkers. And D&D have presented Oathkeeper as the sword symbolising Brienne and Jaime's bond more than anything else, with the scenes it is most prominent being about them. Especially Jaime's line "It's yours, it will always be yours'. In fact, NCW confirmed that Jaime was talking about his heart in that scene, represented by Oathkeeper. So it seems like D&D very much intend for Oathkeeper to stay in Brienne's hands. Especially as Brienne has been using Oathkeeper before the Starks for two season and not once have they requested Brienne give it to them, or even mentioned it. Even if they didn't know she had it, D&D has countless opportunities to foreshadow Ice's reforging, and chose not to. Instead, they repeatedly presented the sword as a symbol of the love and trust between Brienne and Jaime. I don't think they would chose to do so if it ends up being taken away from her and used to make Ice.

 

Maybe it won't be a sword, but something to take down Viserion.

Edited December 22, 2018 by whateverdgaf

[Colorful Mess]

My guess is either Dany or Cersei are going to kill Gendry because he's a threat to their claims, the last of Robert's line. Killing all of Robert's bastards in King's Landing back in S2 wasn't just for shock value.

[whateverdgaf]

9 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

My guess is either Dany or Cersei are going to kill Gendry because he's a threat to their claims, the last of Robert's line. Killing all of Robert's bastards in King's Landing back in S2 wasn't just for shock value.

Cersei could, just out of pettiness and her hatred of Robert, but I can't imagine Dany would. Aside from Gendry's innocence, he is an unacknowledged bastard, unknown to the Stormlands who would be the ones most likely to support a Baratheon claim. He has no experience in politics and no desire to rule. He has no wealth, no armies and his claim is dodgy at best. Dany isn't going to kill an innocent man who poses a minuscule threat to her claim, not when she has an army of Dothraki, Unsullied and two dragons there to defend her. 

Edited December 22, 2018 by whateverdgaf

[Colorful Mess]

12 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

Cersei could, but I can't imagine Dany would. Aside from Gendry's innocence, he is an unacknowledged bastard, unknown to the Stormlands who would be the ones most likely to support a Baratheon claim. He has no experience in politics and no desire to rule. He has no wealth, no armies and his claim is dodgy at best. Dany isn't going to kill an innocent man who poses a minuscule threat to her claim, not when she has an army of Dothraki, Unsullied and two dragons there to defend her. 

That may be the case for the show version of Dany. But Dany is obsessed with Robert and everyone associated with him in the books. I'm also reading Fire and Blood right now and picking up foreshadowing with Hugh the Hammer, bastard of a blacksmith who used a hammer in battle. The name is also very suspicious because Ned wishing to pay for Ser Hugh's armor led him to Gendry. Hugh Hammer was a friend of Ulf White (White wolf). Both are bastards who pledged to Rhaenrya then betrayed her. Both are associated with the prophecy, “When the hammer shall fall upon the dragon, a new king shall arise, and none shall stand before him.” Which was fulfilled by Robert, but this could also be fulfilled again with Gendry/Jon, just in a different way. 

[Minneapple]

11 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

So much for Gendry back as fanservice. Key role. My baby is going to slay with his anti-WW weapon, at the very least. Hype.

 

At this point I would be severely disappointed if anything was written as fanservice. They only have six episodes left so everything has to be written pretty tightly. They don't have time to mess around with fanservice or whatever. Everything they write now has to matter in some way or another.

Edited December 22, 2018 by Minneapple

[Happy Harpy]

5 hours ago, Minneapple said:

At this point I would be severely disappointed if anything was written as fanservice. They only have six episodes left so everything has to be written pretty tightly. They don't have time to mess around with fanservice or whatever. Everything they write now has to matter in some way or another.

 

I agree, and imo "fanservice" is very often synonymous with "it wasn't my pet theory". But I saw so many "Gendry is only back as fanservice" "Gendry is only there as a placeholder for Edric Storm [character culled when GRRM was still actively writing for the show]" etc. that no matter if he lives or die, it's Jon over fAegon all over again and it's pretty petty sweet to me.

Edited December 22, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[WindyNights]

15 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Bran ruled for what a few months, Jon was learning to lead and rule, hasn't done any ruling in 7 except for two weeks .

You have Cersei, Danny, Sansa ( and the parallels of those three ) Tyrion, Jon and Davos. Remove Bran he's on a different plain at the moment and may never get back.

Based on season 7 alone ( not counting her book arc ) Sansa ( not sure if she want it ) is in that mix, she's the only one planning for refugees, getting Winterfell prepared for a war footing, actively  planning for food, clothing, also laying out Jon's plans for training the commoners with the aid of Brienne and Royce. I'm sure Arya's may be in the mix also, though if she doesn't want to be a lady, she be a non conventional leader.

I've said before I wouldn't be surprised if it's  Robyn (cough) Arryan , a unexpected surprise. LOL

Each season is a year so Bran did rule for close to a year even since Bran was left in charge a couple episodes before the end of season 1.

Cersei is automatically out and so is Davos as he's never governed anything. He's just played advisor.  Arya hasn't really been built to govern on the show.

But maybe, Hibberd isn't talking about who ends up on the throne.

[Eyes High]

The Relive the Journey animations on the Making Game of Thrones blog, which were posted every Wednesday for five weeks, seem to have stopped, since on Wednesday there was no new animation posted. That means that the only characters who got their own animations were Tyrion, Arya, Cersei, Dany and Jon.

The characters who are still alive in the show who got #Forthethrone posters or moments were Tyrion, Arya, Cersei, Dany, Jon, Bran, and the NK.

[Leila6]

On 12/21/2018 at 8:54 PM, anamika said:

We have seen so much of Sansa over the last couple of seasons as someone who is adept at managing the political side of things and handling power so much better than Ned or anyone else ever among the Starks.

NB: Anamika was quoting some other, unnamed person.

 

I don’t see why people think Sansa has been shown to be such a great leader. As a thought experiment, if she had been named Queen in the North instead of Jon, where would things stand now? She didn’t want him to meet with Dany, so the North wouldn’t have that crucial alliance and the armies and dragons that come with it. She was still more concerned about Cersei than the AotD, and quite possibly would have wasted troops fending off that unlikely threat to the south. She seems to have been a capable administrator in preparing Winterfell’s rations—and armor, if you ignore the utter stupidity of the idea that northern armorers wouldn’t know how to make their own wares without her correcting them. But then what would have happened? Without more defenders, the North would have succumbed to the AotD eventually anyway. (I think the Night King was planning to get past the Wall at Eastwatch no matter whether he had acquired Viserion or not.) It’s only through Jon’s decisions and Jon’s actions that the north stands a chance. From what I’ve seen, she’s capable of carrying out orders well if she feels like it, but she’s not great at making the right choices in the first place. (And don’t even get me started on her withholding information about the Knights of the Vale from her military commander in the BoB.)

[SeanC]

On 12/22/2018 at 1:27 PM, Colorful Mess said:

That may be the case for the show version of Dany. But Dany is obsessed with Robert and everyone associated with him in the books. 

With people who helped overthrow Aerys, not unacknowledged bastard children who weren't even born at the time.

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, Leila6 said:

NB: Anamika was quoting some other, unnamed person.

 

I don’t see why people think Sansa has been shown to be such a great leader. As a thought experiment, if she had been named Queen in the North instead of Jon, where would things stand now? She didn’t want him to meet with Dany, so the North wouldn’t have that crucial alliance and the armies and dragons that come with it. She was still more concerned about Cersei than the AotD, and quite possibly would have wasted troops fending off that unlikely threat to the south. She seems to have been a capable administrator in preparing Winterfell’s rations—and armor, if you ignore the utter stupidity of the idea that northern armorers wouldn’t know how to make their own wares without her correcting them. But then what would have happened? Without more defenders, the North would have succumbed to the AotD eventually anyway. (I think the Night King was planning to get past the Wall at Eastwatch no matter whether he had acquired Viserion or not.) It’s only through Jon’s decisions and Jon’s actions that the north stands a chance. From what I’ve seen, she’s capable of carrying out orders well if she feels like it, but she’s not great at making the right choices in the first place. (And don’t even get me started on her withholding information about the Knights of the Vale from her military commander in the BoB.)

She didn't want him to go himself, fearing a trap, she gave him alternatives, and they still have the same chance for alliances, without the harping of Danny asking to bend the knee.

WRG to Cersei she is right, Cersei's a powder keg, the thing is Jon never met her, just like Sansa never saw an undead, again they're both right and with all the mentioning of safety, and untrusting guards I think both arguments are rearing ugly heads.

I believe that was a southern Armorer in that scene, and again she didn't correct anyone, she saw a mistake asked if she was correct and ROYCE attended to it.

She could have mentioned the chance, yes, the outcome be the same, Ramsey had the leverage, Jon did not, and Rickon had a better (,0001% ) chance to survive IF Jon kept to his plan. A Kobayashi Maru to be sure, but he wouldn't be in the middle of no mans land alone.

Well her choices so far are better than Cersei's  and in some instances better then Danny.

We aren't going to like the rush job on any of the characters, Arya's super power Ninja girl, Bran all seeing wizard of OZ and Sansa a politician and manipulator, book wise seems to be their arcs, no time for some 5 year training so we have to do what GRRM stipulated in few words; deal with it.

[GrailKing]

Before I forget: Merry Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa.

As I really don't want anyone left out; find your holiday here  and have a happy and safe one.

http://www.holidayscalendar.com/months/december/

[Minneapple]

11 hours ago, Leila6 said:

I don’t see why people think Sansa has been shown to be such a great leader. As a thought experiment, if she had been named Queen in the North instead of Jon, where would things stand now? She didn’t want him to meet with Dany, so the North wouldn’t have that crucial alliance and the armies and dragons that come with it. She was still more concerned about Cersei than the AotD, and quite possibly would have wasted troops fending off that unlikely threat to the south. She seems to have been a capable administrator in preparing Winterfell’s rations—and armor, if you ignore the utter stupidity of the idea that northern armorers wouldn’t know how to make their own wares without her correcting them. But then what would have happened? Without more defenders, the North would have succumbed to the AotD eventually anyway. (I think the Night King was planning to get past the Wall at Eastwatch no matter whether he had acquired Viserion or not.) It’s only through Jon’s decisions and Jon’s actions that the north stands a chance. From what I’ve seen, she’s capable of carrying out orders well if she feels like it, but she’s not great at making the right choices in the first place. (And don’t even get me started on her withholding information about the Knights of the Vale from her military commander in the BoB.)

Sansa didn't want Jon to go South because both Ned and Robb went South and died. She doesn't know Dany. She doesn't know if Jon can trust her. She wanted someone to meet with Dany and create an alliance; she just didn't want that person to be Jon.

Sansa doesn't know about the real threat that is the Army of the Dead because she hasn't seen it. No one has believed in the threat until they've actually seen it. And she's worried about Cersei because Cersei is a real threat. Even if it's not "let's make zombies out of the dead people," I promise you Cersei will present a problem for Sansa and Jon and Dany and everyone else next season. 

 

 

1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

People, there ISN't one true PERFECT person PERIOD. But if we look at who we got Sansa compliments every pairing.

I doubt we will have only one person making all decisions in the end, if they all survive.

Exactly. Dany keeps saying she wants to break the wheel, which is fine. But how does she want to do that? By burning people who refuse to kneel to her? By threatening everyone with her dragons? That's not really breaking any wheels or changing any precedents. 

[GrailKing]

From Reddit:

Also per Reddit talk; NO KING BRAN.

[GrailKing]

Not my Idea, but saw a comment on Reddit.

The comment was that the battle for the dawn could result in the braking of the Neck of Westeros.

So maybe the North achieves independence just not the way we thought.

Thoughts?

[Happy Harpy]

3 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Not my Idea, but saw a comment on Reddit.

The comment was that the battle for the dawn could result in the braking of the Neck of Westeros.

So maybe the North achieves independence just not the way we thought.

Thoughts?

It's an interesting theory. Yet according to onset reports, the AOTD will be in KL, and the AOTD can't cross seas so there might be some technical hurdle here. The Neck is also pretty far away from KL so would a battle there break it?

I'm not sure at all that a Northern independence will happen. Of course if Jon, who's KITN and the eldest survivor of the Stark family, is in any way associated to the 7K, the North will be part of it; but it goes way beyond Jon's potential endgame. Imo, the idea of prosperity in Westeros has been largely associated with united seven kingdoms, and the idea of chaos with their break-up. So if I had to pick an evolution, unifying  (what's left of) them against the AOTD and then into something closer to our modern nation-state would be my pick.

[LadyChaos]

I'm curious.  What if the ending is really like a full circle?  What if Gendry ends up on the throne, Danny dies giving birth to her and Jon's son, and Jon's is put in a position where it would be better to protect the child than raising it himself so he gives it to Sansa to raise as his bastard as he rejoins the NightWatch?  Jon said he never would leave a bastard behind because of how he was treated.  It would be a bittersweet ending.  The Lannisters are all dead(let's be honest do were think any Lannister is finishing out s8), but the wheel would just keep turning. I have a feeling that the 7 kingdoms as a whole will not know that Jon is a Targ so the only threat to the child is if they knew who the mother was. 

[GrailKing]

https://uproxx.com/hitfix/aquaman-game-of-thrones-khal-drogo/#

 

 

Beyond a likely Aquaman sequel, excitable SNL host Momoa is also busy hyping Game of Thrones season eight. “Just knowing how amazing this season is going to be…” he said. “It’s going to be the greatest thing that’s ever aired on TV. It’s going to be unbelievable. It’s going to f*ck up a lot of people. And it was a bummer because I’m a huge fan and I didn’t want to know what’s going on. I was like, damn, I didn’t want to know that!” But will anyone wear a jellyfish dress, like Amber Heard in Aquaman? Probably not.

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

I do enjoy a good Sansa sucks/Sansa is great debate but not in this thread. Why waste your time posting in here when it will be removed? If you want your post to remain; have the debate where it belongs - the Sansa thread. If someone starts a Sansa debate in here, that isn't carte blanche to take this thread off topic - you should quote it and reply to it in her topic.

As a result multiple posts have been removed.

[Colorful Mess]

On 12/23/2018 at 8:41 PM, SeanC said:

With people who helped overthrow Aerys, not unacknowledged bastard children who weren't even born at the time.

She wants to kill the Usurpers dogs even after Ned and Robert are dead. "All the dogs are just as guilty." It's implied in the subtext that she's looking for vengeance against someone. I'm sure she'd be singing the same tune she sang for Robert if Ned 2.0 and Robert 2.0 were pushed to take the throne with the support of the lords and the smallfolk. 

[SeanC]

13 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

She wants to kill the Usurpers dogs even after Ned and Robert are dead. "All the dogs are just as guilty." It's implied in the subtext that she's looking for vengeance against someone. I'm sure she'd be singing the same tune she sang for Robert if Ned 2.0 and Robert 2.0 were pushed to take the throne with the support of the lords and the smallfolk. 

Book Gendry is not, nor is ever like to be, a claimant to the throne.  He's a peasant without education, particular skill at arms, or any of the things you'd need to do that.

"The Usurper's dogs" are the people who overthrew her father and who would fight against her in attempted retaking the throne.

[bubble sparkly]

9 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

I'm curious.  What if the ending is really like a full circle?  What if Gendry ends up on the throne, Danny dies giving birth to her and Jon's son, and Jon's is put in a position where it would be better to protect the child than raising it himself so he gives it to Sansa to raise as his bastard as he rejoins the NightWatch?  Jon said he never would leave a bastard behind because of how he was treated.  It would be a bittersweet ending.  The Lannisters are all dead(let's be honest do were think any Lannister is finishing out s8), but the wheel would just keep turning. I have a feeling that the 7 kingdoms as a whole will not know that Jon is a Targ so the only threat to the child is if they knew who the mother was. 

I can't see Jon just abandoning his child, especially given his own upbringing and always wondering if his mother loved him etc.  If for some reason Jon felt it was unsafe to live publicly in Westeros with a Targ baby, there's no reason he couldn't flee to Essos or somewhere else and raise the kid under an assumed name.  Not to mention, it would be awful of him to put Sansa in so much danger when there is absolutely no reason he can't raise his own kid.  Given how Jon and Dany have been portrayed to date, the only way I can see them not raising their kid is if they die.

[SeanC]

9 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

I'm curious.  What if the ending is really like a full circle?  What if Gendry ends up on the throne, Danny dies giving birth to her and Jon's son, and Jon's is put in a position where it would be better to protect the child than raising it himself so he gives it to Sansa to raise as his bastard as he rejoins the NightWatch?

I don't see how such a scenario would ever make any sense.

[Colorful Mess]

2 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Book Gendry is not, nor is ever like to be, a claimant to the throne.  He's a peasant without education, particular skill at arms, or any of the things you'd need to do that.

"The Usurper's dogs" are the people who overthrew her father and who would fight against her in attempted retaking the throne.

Everything that happens will be something we've seen before so I'm not so sure. Gendry is prime real estate for history circling back around. But he doesnt actually have to be crowned. If he was to oppose Dany it would be bad press. Everyone looks at him and thinks he's Robert reborn. He could be on track to be Robert the warrior again. Or he could even start a new Brotherhood that serves King Jon. It would be a major thorn in her side like it was for the Lannisters.

So what are your ideas for what he'll be doing? Joe Dempsie said he got a good amount of story. 

Dany pursued the Unsullied because she had "dogs" she wanted to kill. However those "dogs" are dead in Book 3 and still dead in Book 5 (now with Tywin) but it keeps coming up. Why is that? What purpose does that serve? Is the author just adding this stuff in for fun? And that the hammer prophecy: just randomly slipped in there for no reason at all. Ok.

[SeanC]

1 minute ago, Colorful Mess said:

So what are your ideas for what he'll be doing? Joe Dempsie said he got a good amount of story. 

Presumably the same as the other characters, who are engaged in an epic war with the White Walkers and/or Cersei?

Quote

Dany pursued the Unsullied because she had "dogs" she wanted to kill. However those "dogs" are dead in Book 3 and still dead in Book 5 (now with Tywin) but it keeps coming up. Why is that? What purpose does that serve?

Because Dany still wants to reclaim the throne, which is still nominally controlled by House Baratheon?  Dany has never been interested in killing people who didn't do anything to her.  Gendry is some random peasant who doesn't even know he's related to Robert (if we're talking about the books).  He's never been prefigured as a leader of men or even particularly notable; he's important to the story mainly because he's Arya's friend.

[Colorful Mess]

5 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Presumably the same as the other characters, who are engaged in an epic war with the White Walkers and/or Cersei?

There's nothing there that is unique about Gendry and his connection to Robert. Anyone can kill zombies or fight against Cersei.

11 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Because Dany still wants to reclaim the throne, which is still nominally controlled by House Baratheon?  Dany has never been interested in killing people who didn't do anything to her.  Gendry is some random peasant who doesn't even know he's related to Robert (if we're talking about the books).  He's never been prefigured as a leader of men or even particularly notable; he's important to the story mainly because he's Arya's friend.

Gendry has been knighted in the books. And the show has him being very loose-lipped about who his father is...so that's probably going to get out.

Dany's enemies are whoever she wants them to be. 

Anyone in this story who is an heir is a threat to other claimants.

GRRM is obsessed with succession politics and its something he constantly writes about and something I would argue he has more interest in than the good vs. evil battle.

[nikma]

HBO, give us something. We are losing our minds. 

[LadyChaos]

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

I don't see how such a scenario would ever make any sense.

None of the endings that look like they are likely make sense either, to me.

[Happy Harpy]

20 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

I'm curious.  What if the ending is really like a full circle?  What if Gendry ends up on the throne, Danny dies giving birth to her and Jon's son, and Jon's is put in a position where it would be better to protect the child than raising it himself so he gives it to Sansa to raise as his bastard as he rejoins the NightWatch?  Jon said he never would leave a bastard behind because of how he was treated.  It would be a bittersweet ending.  The Lannisters are all dead(let's be honest do were think any Lannister is finishing out s8), but the wheel would just keep turning. I have a feeling that the 7 kingdoms as a whole will not know that Jon is a Targ so the only threat to the child is if they knew who the mother was. 

This sounds more depressing than bittersweet to me. And, I agree with other posters above, out of character for Jon. He left the NW because he was murdered, with the AOTD still a threat, I don't see any reason for him to come back to it after the war, provided there will be a NW because, well, the Wall is gone already and the AOTD threat shouldn't exist anymore. Moreover, if Jon had to leave his child in one of his sisters' care, which I agree would be because he and Dany die, chances are it would be the one he's been close to, Arya (and who happens to look like him, if the child had to pass as hers). Or, if Gendry were king*, why not in his friend the king's care -especially in case Gendry and Arya, well.

*Not going to happen, though. I'd give it a 1% chance solely because of the full circle trope, which is as much as I'd give Cersei because of the "fuck my readers, ha ha ha trolled!" trope. Gendry might emerge as a leader during battles, might earn popularity and gratitude by rescuing people, might save the day with his rumored super duper weapon and therefore become a high profile personality in Westeros. I think he'd make a much better king than his father, but actually become one? I doubt it. As a fan of the character, I'll be fine as long as he lives (in one piece and not Laurie-fied) but I'm not sure I'd wish the throne on him.

I don't see either why being a Targaryen would endanger Jon and Dany's child (I think it was brought up already in this thread, not too long ago, sorry if I repeat myself). Jon and Dany's lives were at stake because Robert hated Targaryens and because his House (his Lannister in-laws included) feared a contender with a legitimate claim on the throne. Robert is long dead, and if the Lannisters are dead too, no more problem. The only ones still holding a grudge are some Northern lords, who blame Daenerys for the sins of her father and have a definite xenophobic streak (big no-nos in the show's narrative).

Imo, the ending that makes the most sense is Jon and Dany on the throne. They had the biggest "ruler" arcs, in parallel to each other, and according to Word of God (Cogman or D&D?) they're ice and fire. Simultaneously, it makes this ending the most expected since when something is logical, anyone can deduce it. I personally prefer logic  over something taken out of a hat for shock value, of course mileages vary. The only way, more generally, that I could be OK with someone other than those two (or Tyrion) taking over the throne is in case of a complete scourging of Westeros, with only a couple of hundred thousand survivors left to be ruled. Then I could imagine an inexperienced ruler starting small and expanding over the span of a reign, if with solid counselors (namely, Davos and Varys).

11 hours ago, SeanC said:

Dany has never been interested in killing people who didn't do anything to her.

She's very similar to Arya in that respect. It adds to my interest in seeing how Dany and Arya will interact. I expect some "hurt my brother, end like LF" and some gauging each other at first, but they should discover quickly they have very close, if not the same, view of justice.

Edited December 26, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[WearyTraveler]

47 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

I personally prefer logic  over something taken out of a hat for shock value,

THIS!!!!! A million times this!

[BadAssRobinArryn]

13 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

She wants to kill the Usurpers dogs even after Ned and Robert are dead. "All the dogs are just as guilty." It's implied in the subtext that she's looking for vengeance against someone. I'm sure she'd be singing the same tune she sang for Robert if Ned 2.0 and Robert 2.0 were pushed to take the throne with the support of the lords and the smallfolk. 

Well, she could have ordered to kill Jon, who is believed to be Ned's son, almost right on the spot and obviously didn't. Neither did she kill Tyrion, who is the brother of the kingslayer himself. Nor did she use her dragon during the meeting in King's Landing to make toast out of Cersei and Jaime. All these things considered it's IMO highly unlikely that she'll target Gendry out of all people, especially since Gendry hasn't shown any political ambitions, quite in contrast to all the characters mentioned above.

Edited December 26, 2018 by BadAssRobinArryn

[Minneapple]

1 hour ago, Happy Harpy said:

Imo, the ending that makes the most sense is Jon and Dany on the throne. They had the biggest "ruler" arcs, in parallel to each other, and according to Word of God (Cogman or D&D?) they're ice and fire. Simultaneously, it makes this ending the most expected since when something is logical, anyone can deduce it. I personally prefer logic  over something taken out of a hat for shock value, of course mileages vary.

 

Of course I want a logical ending, but also one that hasn't been telegraphed from a million miles away. Everyone keeps telling us that the ending is a surprise. Jon and Dany ruling together at the end would be no surprise.  It's also too perfect, too sweet. It's supposed to be bittersweet.

Jon is ice and fire all by himself. He's half Stark and half Targ. He is the prince who was promised, and his will be the song of ice and fire.

Edited December 26, 2018 by Minneapple

[ursula]

1 hour ago, Minneapple said:

Of course I want a logical ending, but also one that hasn't been telegraphed from a million miles away.

The series has been running for over 20 years. It's the internet age where the hive mind of thousands of fans have analyzed each clue to death. As the showrunners of Westworld discovered in season 1, what you're asking for is impossible.

Given a choice between a logical ending and a gotcha! asspull, I'll take the boring predictable ending everytime.

Edited December 26, 2018 by ursula
season 1, not 2. at least to the best of my knowledge, since i've never watched season 2. lol.

[Happy Harpy]

46 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Of course I want a logical ending, but also one that hasn't been telegraphed from a million miles away. Everyone keeps telling us that the ending is a surprise. Jon and Dany ruling together at the end would be no surprise.  It's also too perfect, too sweet. It's supposed to be bittersweet.

Jon is ice and fire all by himself. He's half Stark and half Targ. He is the prince who was promised, and his will be the song of ice and fire.

It depends on one's vision of "bitter". To me, the good guys win, the good guys live, but with a heavy moral price and/or a heavy loss is bittersweet. "It's Game of Thrones so the good guys can't win/ it can't be that easy" seems to be the go-to reason to justify Jon and Dany not ending on the throne, so them not ruling is no more subtle or less telegraphed than a full happy ending, imo.

Jon has been focused on saving the people of Westeros from the NK, he gave his life for this cause, Dany doesn't want to be queen of the ashes, she's been fixated on freeing people for several seasons. If the AOTD arrives in KL, it means that at least half of the Westerosi population (including at huge bunch of KL's more than a million inhabitants since filming reports/leaks say it burns) will be wiped out. I can't imagine Jon and Dany not seeing it as a huge personal and moral failure. Winterfell, Jon's home that he shed blood to win back, will be gone. Dany already lost a child, even if she has a human one with Jon. It won't be too sweet then, and I see no Endor-style celebration where the characters rejoice and forget about all that was lost and sacrificed.

I don't discount other options than Jon/Dany, I have no crystal ball. It's just that if it's logical and makes sense over the whole span of the series, it has to be this one.

I agree that Jon could be ice and fire by himself, I thought he might be, but that's not what the writer(s) for the show said. IIRC, it was to one of the directors, and not during a PR bout, which is why I take their word on it.

[tangerine95]

I'd go with predictable rather than out of nowhere for the sake of a twist tbh. I love Gendry as a character but him on the throne would be out of nowhere and undeveloped so I wouldn't be satisfied with that ending.Tho I might prefer it to the whole king Bran thing which I totally hate lol.

Imo they can still make it surprising outside of who ends up on the throne,it's not the one thing that can be a twist.If for example the Tyrion betrayal actually happens people would be shocked about that regardless of who ends up on the throne.

Edited December 26, 2018 by tangerine95

[Leila6]

7 hours ago, tangerine95 said:

I'd go with predictable rather than out of nowhere for the sake of a twist tbh.

Me, too. Certain endings are predictable  because the narrative has built towards them. To me, that makes them better than surprise endings. I value and enjoy stories that make sense and have payoff to the narrative threads woven throughout  the series much more than those that have a big twist in the finale. That’s not to say that all surprise endings are illogical, of course, but rather that I do not agree that twist endings are inherently better than “predictable” ones.

 

However, big budget Hollywood most definitely seems to value shock over narrative continuity, so I don’t have all that much hope I’ll be satisfied. (Anything but King Bran, though, please! That’s godawful.)

Edited December 26, 2018 by Leila6
Autocorrect typo

[SimoneS]

I have said it before in the sci fantasy genre, all the stories are predictable because they are all basically versions of Lord of the Rings. I think that Martin's inability to build the narrative and take it to its logical conclusion is one of the reason that he has been unable to finish the book. I highly doubt his "ending" is unpredictable or surprising. However, I offer up my own unpredictable pick for the Iron Throne: Robert Arryn. It would be ridiculous, but it would be better than Bran.

Edited December 27, 2018 by SimoneS

[Eyes High]

23 hours ago, nikma said:

HBO, give us something. We are losing our minds. 

We should get a second teaser trailer between January 10th and January 15th, and if HBO follows past seasons, we’ll get a premiere date announcement before that.

On the bright side, every day that passes is a day closer to getting real content.

[WindyNights]

12 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

This sounds more depressing than bittersweet to me. And, I agree with other posters above, out of character for Jon. He left the NW because he was murdered, with the AOTD still a threat, I don't see any reason for him to come back to it after the war, provided there will be a NW because, well, the Wall is gone already and the AOTD threat shouldn't exist anymore. Moreover, if Jon had to leave his child in one of his sisters' care, which I agree would be because he and Dany die, chances are it would be the one he's been close to, Arya (and who happens to look like him, if the child had to pass as hers). Or, if Gendry were king*, why not in his friend the king's care -especially in case Gendry and Arya, well.

*Not going to happen, though. I'd give it a 1% chance solely because of the full circle trope, which is as much as I'd give Cersei because of the "fuck my readers, ha ha ha trolled!" trope. Gendry might emerge as a leader during battles, might earn popularity and gratitude by rescuing people, might save the day with his rumored super duper weapon and therefore become a high profile personality in Westeros. I think he'd make a much better king than his father, but actually become one? I doubt it. As a fan of the character, I'll be fine as long as he lives (in one piece and not Laurie-fied) but I'm not sure I'd wish the throne on him.

I don't see either why being a Targaryen would endanger Jon and Dany's child (I think it was brought up already in this thread, not too long ago, sorry if I repeat myself). Jon and Dany's lives were at stake because Robert hated Targaryens and because his House (his Lannister in-laws included) feared a contender with a legitimate claim on the throne. Robert is long dead, and if the Lannisters are dead too, no more problem. The only ones still holding a grudge are some Northern lords, who blame Daenerys for the sins of her father and have a definite xenophobic streak (big no-nos in the show's narrative).

Imo, the ending that makes the most sense is Jon and Dany on the throne. They had the biggest "ruler" arcs, in parallel to each other, and according to Word of God (Cogman or D&D?) they're ice and fire. Simultaneously, it makes this ending the most expected since when something is logical, anyone can deduce it. I personally prefer logic  over something taken out of a hat for shock value, of course mileages vary. The only way, more generally, that I could be OK with someone other than those two (or Tyrion) taking over the throne is in case of a complete scourging of Westeros, with only a couple of hundred thousand survivors left to be ruled. Then I could imagine an inexperienced ruler starting small and expanding over the span of a reign, if with solid counselors (namely, Davos and Varys).

She's very similar to Arya in that respect. It adds to my interest in seeing how Dany and Arya will interact. I expect some "hurt my brother, end like LF" and some gauging each other at first, but they should discover quickly they have very close, if not the same, view of justice.

D & D are building Daenerys up to be this revolutionary figure in Westeros but there isn't any of that in GRRM's writings. GRRM doesn't write about Daeneys breaking the wheel. She's revolutionary in Essos as a breaker of chains but there are no slaves to free in Westeros.

The show is also refusing to show how Daenerys is going to be revolutionary and they've already touched upon the succession if she dies. They're setting groundwork there for the next season.

I mean that convo with Tyrion is a huge red flag. 

So this all reads like rug-pulling. There's no intention for Daeneys to end the series as queen of Westeros.

Whether its battle or child-birth or sacrifice, she like Tyrion is slated to die. 

And Jon + the Starks rule Westeros.

They're Ned's children after all and the Starks are the heroes according to GRRM.

[Happy Harpy]

4 hours ago, WindyNights said:

GRRM doesn't write about Daeneys breaking the wheel. She's revolutionary in Essos as a breaker of chains but there are no slaves to free in Westeros.

Maybe GRRM doesn't write about Daenerys breaking the wheel because, a huge very wild guess, he hasn't gotten to the part where she sails for Westeros yet? (If he ever gets there). Also, the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution etc. say hi. Serfdom is a form of slavery.  Westeros is far from being a social justice winner so there's plenty to be revolutionary about. I'd even say that being a wight is the ultimate form of slavery so Dany will have her hands full.

It's difficult to say for now what the purpose of the succession talk was, personally I wouldn't dare to be peremptory about it. Because if Dany dies and Jon takes the throne, this discussion is actually pointless: Jon doesn't need to inherit the throne from her. It could foreshadow the reveal of Jon's parentage. The goal could have been to stress the stakes of Dany going to rescue the expedition, giving more weight to Tyrion's POV (even for the audience since Jon, the other heir, was in mortal danger). It could have been to deepen the rift between Dany and Tyrion, it could have allowed Tyrion to make a deal with Cersei and promise that her spawn would be named heir, in other words it could have paved the way for Tyrion's betrayal in S8. At the time of the Tyrion/Dany talk, they both assumed that there was no other Targaryen and that Dany couldn't have children. The first notion will be disproved, probably as early as in 8x01 or 8x02. The second will very probably be, too. If Tyrion made plans, they're for sure going to be disrupted.

[GrailKing]

[SimoneS]

I can't figure out what that TV Guide article is trying to say about Jon and Dany's relationship when the truth come out about his true identity. Jon finding out the truth "would be very hard for him" and it would "cut deep" for Dany?

[tangerine95]

I think they're both gonna have a sort of identity crisis.Jon with finding out Ned,the father he admired and loved so much,wasn't his real father and lied to him his whole life.And they'll probably throw in the whole drama over Dany being his aunt and can he continue their relationship knowing that.Being heir to the throne probably won't be as big a deal for him but I think maybe he will have people around him who care more about that and try to push him into accepting it.

And Dany I can see struggling with the fact that she isn't the rightful heir.No one around her cares about that,its not why they follow her but she cares and Imo it will be more of an internal issue for her.I also think Varys and maybe Tyrion could be there to plant some doubts in her head about Jon,especially if finding out the truth causes Jon to be distant with her.

That's pretty much how I think that conflict could roughly go but I do believe it will end with them still together and deciding to rule as equals if they survive.And I also feel like it will be solved by ep 3 or 4 tbh.

[Nightingale]

Interesting. They're doing the exact same thing with the potential Jon/Dany conflict in season 8 that they did with the Jon/Sansa conflict for season 7.

They started teasing problems between Jon and Sansa right after 6x10 aired by having Kit, Sophie and even Liam hype it up in the post-episode video commentary.

They started teasing problems between Jon and Dany right after 7x07 aired by having Peter and Isaac calling the relationship dangerous and DB Weiss straight up saying that the parentage reveal could "tear them apart". 

And now they're doing the same thing in interviews and articles. You would think that if the show actually ended with a Dance of Dragons 2.0, they'd do whatever they could to hide it, especially since we've been told that the producers are completely paranoid about spoilers this year.

If they keep following the same pattern, we can assume that the Jon and Dany drama will only last until, at most, the end of episode 2. 

[Minneapple]

I'll be really fucking annoyed if the fallout of the reveal of Jon's parentage is wrapped up by episode 2. This is a big fucking secret that's been built up for seven fucking seasons and the reaction should be more than "OH THAT'S NICE, LET'S MOVE ON." It's way way bigger than Jon and Sansa reuniting. It's should create an identity crisis for both Jon and Dany. Jon's identity is wrapped up in being Ned Stark's bastard son, and Dany's in being the last Targaryen and her claim to the throne. Now these things are all a big lie. Plus, hey, they're aunt and nephew and they're fucking. Also Dany is pregnant with her nephew's child. THIS SHOULD BE A BIG DEAL.

[Colorful Mess]

We dont need DB Weiss to tell us that their relationship is built on thin ice and that accidental incest could break them apart. That's a given. I doubt the guys who were so excited to film the Red Wedding are going to write in warm/fuzzy make-up sex at the end. LOL Love Conquers All? Maybe for a romcom. This series is about succession and betrayal and warring families.