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S12.E21: There's Something About Mary

Diane

By Diane
in Supernatural

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ZennyKenny
ZennyKenny

I made a thing, in honor of this episode.

G-Man
G-Man

That was Crowley who escaped into a rat 

gonzosgirrl
gonzosgirrl

I think one of the thing I hate most about this season is all the godawful exposition, most especially from Crowley, to explain away the ridiculous plot points from thin air. Mark S is such a good act

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Reganne

Reganne

(edited)
13 minutes ago, SueB said:

I agree about the thinness of the "leave them in the bunker" part of the plot.  My only headcannon is that actually shooting them might be a trigger for Mary.  Leaving them to die would be less traumatic.  I know.. total fanwank... but that's about the only plausible explanation. 

I think this is a good theory.  I do think Ketch still has feelings for her.  I didn't get why they would just leave them in there and not just shoot them, so I have to say I like your head canon.  Makes a little more sense.

Edited by Reganne
MysteryGuest

MysteryGuest

1 minute ago, Wynne88 said:

I think originally she did it to get close enough to swipe his gun.  After he took it away from her, she didn't have anything else she really could do but appeal to him.

I actually thought that was a pretty effective scene.  I totally got where Mary was coming from.  She's had her family and her strength of will, and now that she knows they can make her kill people she cares about, she can't bear the thought of that.  She fully intended to kill herself, but when that didn't work she tried to appeal to Ketch to do it for her.  I thought her breakdown was very believable.  

I'm not at all thrilled with what they did with Mary's character this season, but I think they've been slowly turning that around the last few episodes.  She reiterated the fact that she was only working with the BMOL to possibly give her sons a future without monsters, which maybe is the only thing she thinks she has to offer them.  Maybe she doesn't trust that they just want her.  Either way, she's definitely softening toward them, which is why I want her back next season.  We deserve something good to come from this relationship and so do Sam and Dean.  Otherwise, it's just manipulation.

  • Love 6
bethy

bethy

I just care so little about any of the people who were on my screen this week except Dean and Sam. They've pretty much ruined Mary for me, so her angst isn't engaging; I like Crowly in small doses, mostly when interacting with Dean or Sam; while I like MP, the whole Lucifer has a baby storyline is a snooze fest for me. 

I was so, so sorry to lose Eileen and if they kill Jody, I may seriously consider quitting the show. I just don't know if I can take the boys losing that last true connection in their lives. But. I do actually have some tentative, wary hope about how a scene between Mary and Jody might go. It might be seriously awesome to watch Jody mentally take on Mary.

  • Love 8
gonzosgirrl

gonzosgirrl

I think one of the thing I hate most about this season is all the godawful exposition, most especially from Crowley, to explain away the ridiculous plot points from thin air. Mark S is such a good actor - the second best on the show, IMO, and I absolutely cringe for him having to say these stupid lines. Do BuckLemming not give a single fuck about any episode outside the one they are currently writing? We're really supposed to buy that Crowley has had an arrangement with the British Douchebags of Letters all along? FFS.

  • Love 12
G-Man

G-Man

12 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

You know, I wonder if Crowley "reversed the polarity" so Lucifer could get free, because he (Crowley, that is) hasn't been able to find Kelly and Sproutifer and he thinks that Lucifer can.  He may have some way to reinstate the binding.

(Though I hate that demons and witches can now bind angels and archangels.  Not anything they would have been able to do to in season 4, IMO)

Although what's stopping Lucifer from simply snap his fingers and then pop goes Crowley 

  • Love 2
rue721

rue721

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I actually thought that was a pretty effective scene.  I totally got where Mary was coming from.  She's had her family and her strength of will, and now that she knows they can make her kill people she cares about, she can't bear the thought of that.  She fully intended to kill herself, but when that didn't work she tried to appeal to Ketch to do it for her.  I thought her breakdown was very believable.  

YMMV, I was expecting her to have something more up her sleeve, since she was the one who had been asking for Ketch.

It also rubbed me the wrong way that she was bemoaning the fact that she'd lost her "will," when you'd think she'd be feeling bad for all the people she's going to kill -- and for the guy whose throat she slit a few hours earlier. Petty, I guess. But it seemed small-minded to me.

Like I said, I don't actually dislike Mary. I just wish she had showed a little more ingenuity or resourcefulness or cleverness or something. Purely for the entertainment value, if nothing else.

I mean, remember when Soulless Sam bit into his own arm and made a Devil's Trap out of his blood? One of the best moments in the series for me. I wanted to see her try something cool like that -- even if she ultimately failed.

  • Love 6
catrox14

catrox14

(edited)
4 minutes ago, G-Man said:

and Sproutifer

LOOOOOL at Sproutifer. That's fantastic.  I was going with Spawn but that works so much better. LOL

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Do BuckLemming not give a single fuck about any episode outside the one they are currently writing? We're really supposed to buy that Crowley has had an arrangement with the British Douchebags of Letters all along? FFS.

I am 100% sure they do not give a fuck. But I put this a Dabb and Singer's feet. It's Singer's wife. So either they are the hatchet men by design or they bring the hatchet in their story pitching. 

Edited by catrox14
  • Love 3
gonzosgirrl

gonzosgirrl

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

LOOOOOL at Sproutifer. That's fantastic.  I was going with Spawn but that works so much better. LOL

I am 100% sure they do not give a fuck. But I put this a Dabb and Singer's feet. It's Singer's wife. So either they are the hatchet men by design or they bring the hatchet in their story pitching. 

Oh, I agree, 100%  The buck (heh) stops squarely at the feet of the showrunner(s). I've never wished a person out of a job before, but I sincerely hope Dabb gets fired and takes Perez with him.

  • Love 5
MysteryGuest

MysteryGuest

8 minutes ago, rue721 said:

It also rubbed me the wrong way that she was bemoaning the fact that she'd lost her "will," when you'd think she'd be feeling bad for all the people she's going to kill -- and for the guy whose throat she slit a few hours earlier. Petty, I guess. But it seemed small-minded to me.

But I think that's exactly why she did what she did.  When she realized that she really had killed that hunter, she concocted her plan to get Ketch to come to her with the full intention of stealing his gun and using it on herself.  It was because of her fear of being made to hurt anyone else.  Killing herself was the most selfless thing she could have done in order to save the lives of anyone else they might send her after.  I don't think she was lamenting the loss of her will, but was instead fearful of what that meant for the people she cares about.

  • Love 5
rue721

rue721

4 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

But I think that's exactly why she did what she did.  When she realized that she really had killed that hunter, she concocted her plan to get Ketch to come to her with the full intention of stealing his gun and using it on herself.  It was because of her fear of being made to hurt anyone else.  Killing herself was the most selfless thing she could have done in order to save the lives of anyone else they might send her after.  I don't think she was lamenting the loss of her will, but was instead fearful of what that meant for the people she cares about.

I can see that angle, but I don't agree. In my perspective, she just tried to off herself and then asked Ketch to save her. No problem-solving involved. No real attempt at problem-solving.

More than anything, IMO that's just exceptionally boring to me as a viewer. That's the kind of thing that makes Mary no fun to watch.

I would have more sympathy for her trying to commit suicide (again) but killing herself seemed useless to me because it wouldn't have stopped the BMOL from turning everyone else into their puppets. It wouldn't really have solved any problem.

That said, I don't really understand how the brainwashing thing they were doing on her was even meant to work. It seemed more like a spell than brainwashing, but maybe I just think that because the Lucifer/Crowley plot was nearly the exact same, with the puppeteering thing going on, and that WAS meant to be a spell.

gonzosgirrl

gonzosgirrl

(edited)
6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Uh...IS THIS THE COLT UNDER THE TABLE? If so, does this mean that Sam fixed it? 

http://yourfavoritedirector.tumblr.com

http://yourfavoritedirector.tumblr.com/

I was about to type 'they wouldn't be so dumb as to leave the Colt out of the safe again if he'd fixed it', but these writers ....

That said, I think it's just a gun.

Edited by gonzosgirrl
roctavia

roctavia

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

In The Memory Remains, Dean was cleaning a couple of guns and took the Colt from the holster under the table to clean it.

tumblr_ooitr6UJ4r1ravgwio1_500.giftumblr_ooitr6UJ4r1ravgwio2_500.gif

tumblr_ooitr6UJ4r1ravgwio3_500.giftumblr_ooitr6UJ4r1ravgwio5_500.gif

Is that really "the" colt though? Or just a similar type of gun? Every time we see them with the actual colt they are unwrapping it from a cloth, even Sam was looking at it in a cloth. No way to they leave the colt just hanging out under a table. That looks like an emergency I might need a gun while sitting here gun.

roctavia

roctavia

Crowley is definitely in the rat... I don't think we're supposed to wonder if Crowley is dead for good, just that Lucifer was more distracted by the fact that he had one over on Crowley that he didn't pay attention to his actual death... I'm sure Crowley will show up at some point when he's needed.  I like the idea that Crowley was involved in setting Lucifer free to lead him to the baby.

I don't like this direction with Mary, mind control and all that, though we did see Sam in that dream world at the beginning of the season thanks to Lady Whatsherface... but Sam's torture makes even less sense now...

I'm glad they figured out the bunker was bugged, and I was glad to see them kick some ass... but now they are trapped in a bunker with no ventilation and a bunch of dead bodies... I hope they get out of their quickly! I so want Mary to kill Ketch... and the old lady head mistress (though i'd be fine with anybody taking her out) the BMOL are so stupid anyway- the hunters don't get rid of monsters the way we want so we're going to kill them all!! It makes no sense, it's not like hunters are going to stop the BMOL from taking out monsters. I'm sure they'd all be glad to stop hunting if the monsters were gone.

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Dobian

Dobian

(edited)

Meh.  So they have Mary prisoner for what, a week?  Drug her up some, mess with her head, and voila, puppet psychopath who will kill her own sons on command.  Right.  The fight in the bunker was also implausible.  Lady Bevell has demonstrated on numerous occasions that she's practically a ninja and kicks Sam and Dean's ass with ease.  So when Sam is using her as a meat shield, there isn't one out of about a dozen judo moves she could have done on him to disarm him, she just lets him hold her like a helpless damsel.  Really?  And sealing them in the bunker to suffocate to death instead of just shooting them, why? Oh, so they can can survive to next week, got it.  Of course, this whole making the bunker airtight is yet another ridiculous implausibility.  Like there is nowhere in the whole place where air isn't leaking in.  Good grief.  I've pretty much had it with the British Psychopaths of Letters all around.  I also don't see Mary surviving this season, she's played out.  I've felt she's been on borrowed time anyway ever since she came back from the dead.  The only thing I liked about the episode was Lucifer and Crowley, always love their exchanges.  Crowley as Kermit, haha.  So what did he do, put his soul in the rat?  Is he Peter Pettigrew now?

Edited by Dobian
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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)
19 minutes ago, roctavia said:

Is that really "the" colt though? Or just a similar type of gun? Every time we see them with the actual colt they are unwrapping it from a cloth, even Sam was looking at it in a cloth. No way to they leave the colt just hanging out under a table. That looks like an emergency I might need a gun while sitting here gun.

I'm pretty sure it's THE COLT in the Memory Remains.  Dean removes it from the holster under the table, cleans it, and keeps it in his pocket when he hooks up with the waitress. 

In The Future, Sam is irritated that Dean kept it under his pillow instead of in the safe, which  Sam must have insisted upon after Dean had the Colt taken from him the Memory Remains. But hey if that wasn't the Colt, Dean was cleaning in the Memory Remains, then it's got a lot of fandom fooled including me.

Edited by catrox14
roctavia

roctavia

(edited)
11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Yes, it's THE COLT in the Memory Remains.  Dean removes it from the holster under the table, cleans it, and takes it with him on the hunt and keeps it in his pocket when he hooks up with the waitress.

Okay... so you made me rewatch, because how stupid would it be to keep the colt under the table (I mean like all the time when they aren't around)? Dean does pull a gun out from under the table, but the colt is already sitting on the table next to Dean's gun. He sets the under the table gun in front of the other guns he is working on (the brown handle on the table when he's cleaning the colt), but then picks up the colt to clean that one instead.... so we're both right :)

Edited by roctavia
  • Love 2
Geordiegirl1967

Geordiegirl1967

Sigh. Another lacklustre, S&D free zone, unimaginative episode. 

Issues include;

- S&D get hit with a stupid stick again. They find the bugs. Hence they know the Bunker is comprised. And even before this they knew the BMoL could get in whenever they wanted. Yet they took Lady B back there? Stupid.

- Lucifer getting free? Yawn. So sick of this story. So sick of Crowley being Lucifers bitch then turn and turn about. Crowleys decision not to send him back to the cage was beyond stupid. And he is anything but that

- clearly Crowley isn't dead. Surely Lucifer knows the difference between angel-blading a corpse and a possessed body? Again. Stupid. 

- I hated all the hunters getting killed. Losing Eileen was pointless and stupid (I keep using that word) 

- brainwashed Mary is another stupid concept. Why bother? They have people who are just as good at hunting as she is. Why risk trying to turn her? Why her only? Why not brainwash all US hunters? 

- almost no S&D AGAIN! And what there was was another bro bond free zone. Dean could've comforted Sam over Eileen. A pat on the shoulder would increase the number of bro moments in this season by 100%

Positives? Er....

+ the boys were badass in the fight in the bunker

+ as always their acting was great

Overal? Meh

  • Love 4
Jediknight

Jediknight

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

All I know, if the power is going out in the bunker then it should get REALLY hot and we are OWED shirtless or one layers for the boys!!!

Let's be fair here, also give us at least a sweaty Lady Bevell.

20 minutes ago, Dobian said:

The fight in the bunker was also implausible.  Lady Bevell has demonstrated on numerous occasions that she's practically a ninja and kicks Sam and Dean's ass with ease.  So when Sam is using her as a meat shield, there isn't one out of about a dozen judo moves she could have done on him to disarm him, she just lets him hold her like a helpless damsel.  Really?

They really should have had Lady Bevell say she let Sam and Dean capture her, because she needs their help.  She needs their help to take down the BMoL because they're threatening her son.  It would be a believable path to redemption for her, and Sam and Dean would help her out without question.

catrox14

catrox14

I'm not going to belabor the Colt in 12.18 discussion in this thread. I'll take my further comments over there .

The question remains was that the Colt under the table in this episode.

12 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

Let's be fair here, also give us at least a sweaty Lady Bevell.

No.

13 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

  It would be a believable path to redemption for her, and Sam and Dean would help her out without question.

Why would they help her at all? She got herself into this mess. She mind raped Sam and tortured them both, tortured Mary, tried to kill them all.  Kid or not, why would they help her?  Please keep her kid out of this, writers!

  • Love 3
Jediknight

Jediknight

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Why would they help her at all? She got herself into this mess. She mind raped Sam and tortured them both, tortured Mary, tried to kill them all.  Kid or not, why would they help her?  Please keep her kid out of this, writers!

Because even the Winchesters have done stupid shit for family, they've broken the world.  Also, her son is an innocent, it doesn't matter what Lady Bevell has done, Sam and Dean would help her to save her son.  They would have helped Bela if she told them everything.

  • Love 2
catrox14

catrox14

12 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

Because even the Winchesters have done stupid shit for family, they've broken the world.  Also, her son is an innocent, it doesn't matter what Lady Bevell has done, Sam and Dean would help her to save her son.  They would have helped Bela if she told them everything.

Do we know her kid is innocent? He might have killed another kid in Hogwart's Hell School. 

  • Love 2
AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

(edited)
5 hours ago, bettername2come said:

So the Winchesters check all over the kitchen and the telescope before they look under the main table they work at?

I blame Kellyanne Conway... the guys must've been subconsciously influenced that their kitchen appliances could be turned into a listening device. ; )


On a less fun note - Come on show! Sam has one friend of his own and you have to kill her off? Geesh.

Otherwise this episode was better than I expected.

Edited by AwesomO4000
  • Love 6
Myrelle

Myrelle

(edited)
8 hours ago, Idahoforspn said:

Have some BAMF!Dean gifs. It's been too long.

Thanks for these. Unfortunately, they were the highlight of this one for me and they were over in like 10 seconds and then Mother Mary had to come in and continue the ruination of not just this episode, but the entire season for me. As someone up thread said-what a detestable character they've turned Mary into. And I have to blame Sam Smith, too. She was better in small doses. IMO. Or maybe it's just that Dabb is too much in love with BadAssMarySue Winchester Best Hunter Evah! and with making her the centerpiece of this show now, along with his other love Lucifer. That shot at the end was laughable. I remember when final shots on this show used to be so moving. God, what a mess Dabb and co. have made of this season.

And now we have Lady Deadeyes back again, too. Ugh. I can't see how he's going to save this season-not with what they gave us in this one.

This one was so boring and predictable and those are the best things that I can say about it. And I don't care if they get their mother back. Not in the least. In fact, I'm now with whoever said that they wished S12 was just going to be shown to us as really being a fever dream of Dean's, but for me I wish that it took place right after his encounter with Amara and Chuck/God and Mary's resurrection was just part and parcel of a terrible nightmare.

9 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think one of the thing I hate most about this season is all the godawful exposition, most especially from Crowley, to explain away the ridiculous plot points from thin air. Mark S is such a good actor - the second best on the show, IMO, and I absolutely cringe for him having to say these stupid lines. Do BuckLemming not give a single fuck about any episode outside the one they are currently writing? We're really supposed to buy that Crowley has had an arrangement with the British Douchebags of Letters all along? FFS.

Mark Sheppard has been wasted so pitifully in the last two seasons, IMO. But to me no one has been wasted more than Jensen Ackles has been in this season. Someone, somewhere, stated that this season is what the show would look like without Dean Winchester because the character that the writers have given us this season is not Dean. Not by a long shot. It's just someone who's wearing his face. And I have to agree with that sentiment at least since mid-season and when Dean went against all of his better instincts and went along meekly with Mary and Sam on the BMoL front. Blech.

I can't wait for the Mary Winchester and Lucifer Show to be over. I can't wait to put this season in the rear view mirror. It feels like S8 all over again-only worse.

My only hope is that someone BTS who carries a little more clout than Singer will slap Dabb upside of the head before he starts writing S13 and remind him who the writing on this show should center around if he wants to keep his job and keep the gravy train rolling for everyone.

And I can't say that I've never wished a writer out of a job because I DID wish Gamble to be gone after S6 and I'm wishing the same for Dabb right now. She landed on her feet somewhere else and I'm sure he will too, so I'm not even going to feel guilty about that-and especially not after watching this week's episode.

Quote

Honestly, I was not hating Toni as much as usual in this episode, because she had some good lines

While she did point out to Mary that what John did to their children after she died was basically child abuse, Mary's "surprise" at that and Lady Deadeyes taunt just had me thinking did Mary actually read John's journal or was she just pretending. And if so, she must be pretty slow on the uptake not to have realized that herself. I guess we're supposed to assume she was in denial about the love of her life even though it was all there in print. And these were her children. The ones she never wanted anything more than to protect from the hunting life. Still, yes, someone finally said out loud what this show has avoided saying for years. I just wish that it would have been someone with more credibility than their enemy.

Edited by Myrelle
  • Love 1
Katy M

Katy M

8 hours ago, rue721 said:

I would have more sympathy for her trying to commit suicide (again) but killing herself seemed useless to me because it wouldn't have stopped the BMOL from turning everyone else into their puppets. It wouldn't really have solved any problem.

It wouldn't have solved any problems, but it was the only thing she COULD do.

  • Love 2
Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

When Eileen died, I said, "Okay, Crowley's gone too far.  They have to kill him off now."

As the episode progressed, I became increasingly convinced it would happen.  Then Lucifer started playing with his food and I knew it wouldn't happen.  Especially when the camera panned away from Crowley.  They already pulled this trick before, when Cas was under Rowena's spell and was supposed to kill Crowley.  Lazy writers.

Oh, other stuff happened in the episode, I suppose, but it was all rather meh-worthy.

  • Love 2
Katy M

Katy M

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Why do the boys have a stupid P.O.Box.

Why wouldn't they?  How else would they get mail?  They need a mailing address for their credit card scams.

 

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Why can Ketch turn off the power and water, when it was never known how it worked?

It was never known by Sam and Dean how it worked.  Obviously someone must have known how it worked.  And, it may be the same set up as the BMOL bunkers.

  • Love 4
rue721

rue721

36 minutes ago, Katy M said:

It wouldn't have solved any problems, but it was the only thing she COULD do.

It wasn't the only thing she could have done, it was the only thing she could think of. Which is why I think she's dull. I started suspecting she just wasn't that bright a while back and this episode just reinforced it. Guess John was the brains of their operation?

She didn't need to be more of a badass, but I just wish she had had an interesting or original thought at SOME point in the episode -- if only so we could actually see what was being lost by having her become an automaton.

To be fair, B-L episodes are always lazy and predictable, so it's to be expected that the characters don't seem too inventive in them, either.

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