S12.E21: There's Something About Mary

[auntvi]

3 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

If Philip and Elizabeth Jennings can juggle a full-time job, parenthood, and spying (long-term affairs, fake marriages, and fake sons sometimes included!), I'll buy that Jodi can be a sheriff and sometime hunter. 

Yeah, but they actually have real writers on that show. ;)

[CluelessDrifter]

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Well, since Crowley has only been King for a few years, and we know demons have been around GB buying souls for at least 19 years (Bela died in season 3  which was ten years after her deal) it seems that the BMOL have had a longstanding deal with the demons.  Or maybe they didn't get rid of all the monsters till after that? (Eileen's parents were killed by a banshee over 20 years ago.  Did the BMOL ever say exactly how long since they've had monsters? ... I know there was discussion if Ireland fell under the BMOL protection, but I can't remember if it got resolved.)    

Since Ireland isn't part of the UK or Britain, it wouldn't fall under the protection of the BMoL despite it's proximity.  1965 is the last time there was a monster-related death in the UK according to Toni in Keep Calm and Carry On.  Also, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of cooperation with the BMoL from the French chapter if Delphine decided to get on a submarine heading to the US instead of going to the UK.  I'm guessing there's a reason for that.

Edited May 14, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Well, I just watched.  Yes, really.  :)  I've been traveling and haven't had the time.  

• Really sad about Eileen.  Really, really, REALLY sad. RIP Eileen.  And Wally.  Dammit.
• The Lucifer turn around wasn't surprising.  Weren't we all waiting for that to happen?  I was kind of waiting for the Crowley 10 steps ahead part.  ::sigh::  Guess not.  Darn it.  So that was actually kind of boring, because it was so predictable.  Crowley is definitely not dead.  
• Mary - hm.  Well, I know she was brainwashed and all, but I think I actually like her even less now and have less sympathy for her.  Probably not how I am supposed to feel.  
• Somebody just needs to put a bullet in Lady thinksshessmartbutshesnot's head.  I volunteer as tribute.  

[AwesomO4000]

Oops - wrong thread. This is not the post you're looking for...

Edited May 15, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[Geordiegirl1967]

17 hours ago, CluelessDrifter said:

if Delphine decided to get on a submarine heading to the US instead of going to the UK.  I'm guessing there's a reason for that.

I think that had more to do with getting as far away from the Nazis as possible (Britain was in grave danger of invasions all the way through the War) than anything to do with inter-europe MoL relations.

[CluelessDrifter]

14 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

I think that had more to do with getting as far away from the Nazis as possible (Britain was in grave danger of invasions all the way through the War) than anything to do with inter-europe MoL relations.

Responding in the Spoilers and Speculation thread.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

On 5/12/2017 at 11:51 AM, catrox14 said:

Going to an federal facility like the post office to get mail at a P.O. Box in the middle of the day on a weekly basis is silly IMO

I don't know about your local PO, but a lot of PO's in smaller towns have more limited window (live attendants) hours now than they used to, but the outer doors are still open to allow people access to their PO boxes.  For example, one local PO near where I work 'closes' (which means if I want to buy stamps or mail out a package, I am SOL) everyday from 1-3pm.  But if I had a PO box, I could still walk into the facility and access that.  So, even if someone was on a wanted poster, with no one there to see them, it wouldn't make any difference.

20 hours ago, rue721 said:

I don't really have a problem with the idea that they've made a deal that goes against their supposed ideology because they think it gives them more control over what goes on in their "country." That actually seems reasonably realistic to me. YMMV.

I got the impression that the BMoL didn't really think the deal with Crowley (ie: demons) was in the same league as other monsters, because HDUSH stipulated that his demons could only made deals with people who were willing.  In other monster attacks, such as vampires and werewolves, innocent people who were just minding their own business would get killed.  In other words, if you're willing to sell your soul to a demon, you deserve your fate, but vampire victims don't.  And I could agree with that, tbh.

[Katy M]

10 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

In other words, if you're willing to sell your soul to a demon, you deserve your fate, but vampire victims don't.

Me, too, except for the granny demon in DEvil May Care who was getting little kids to sell their souls. 

 

13 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

But if I had a PO box, I could still walk into the facility and access that.  So, even if someone was on a wanted poster, with no one there to see them, it wouldn't make any difference

I don't think it matters anyway.  Sam and Dean pretty regularly walk up to law enforcement and flash fake badges.  They're not going to sweat the post office.  Plus, they're not on wanted posters because they're "dead."

[ahrtee]

I have no problem with them having (or accessing) a PO box because of all the reasons mentioned above.  But there are way too many places now (*especially* for things like credit cards) that won't accept a PO box as a mailing address, but need a street address.  That's why there are a lot of commercial places (Mailboxes Etc., UPS store, etc.) that offer mailboxes, with a "real" street address.   My sister uses one of those, mostly for packages.  But everyone knows PO boxes so it's used as shorthand for a mail drop that they won't have to explain.  TPTB do underestimate the nitpickery of fandom, though, don't they?  

ETA:  And I'm the poster child for nitpickery of all things.  :)

Edited May 15, 2017 by ahrtee

[Goldmoon]

I forgot to add, when I said that Eileen could text S&D earlier, that even if her equipment was being watched, could she not have picked up a burner phone and stopped at a public library to activate it, then sent text?  The letter just seems unnecessarily old school.

[catrox14]

The boys can get away with fake FBI stuff because they go into small towns where weird things happen that people are just happy to have resolved without much being said about it later.  They just want it and the feds  to go away.

 I still find it ridiculous that the Secret Service has not popped back up trying to find out what happened to all the people at the black site in Colorado. SIDEBAR: that location was not really that well hidden. It wasn't far from Estes Park and the Rocky Mountain Nat'l Park which is arguably the most popular and most easily accessible place for hiking and camping. It's near the communities of Nederland, Ward, and Allenspark (they should have put it in Ward, that is a weird town let me tell you. People don't say anything about anyone. It's strange. Rumor had it that back in the day, Patty Hearst was held there during her kidnapping and time with the SLA) It was over the ridge from the popular ski resort of Breckenridge, and near a well traveled mountain highway. LOL. The writers would have been better served to put that black site up by the Colorado/Wyoming border in Northwest Colorado, but I digress.

My point is that there is no way someone with the feds isn't wondering what happened to that black site and that is why IMO the boys going to a public federal facility on a regular basis is IMO stupid.

[Katy M]

7 minutes ago, Goldmoon said:

I forgot to add, when I said that Eileen could text S&D earlier, that even if her equipment was being watched, could she not have picked up a burner phone and stopped at a public library to activate it, then sent text?  The letter just seems unnecessarily old school.

But, if their phones were also being bugged or whatever, then it wouldn't matter is she was using a different phone.  The BMOLs would still see the text. 

Edited May 15, 2017 by Katy M

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, Goldmoon said:

I forgot to add, when I said that Eileen could text S&D earlier, that even if her equipment was being watched, could she not have picked up a burner phone and stopped at a public library to activate it, then sent text?  The letter just seems unnecessarily old school.

What the show should have said was that Eileen didn't trust the boys hadn't been hacked either so that's why she didn't call them even with a burner phone.

Edited May 15, 2017 by catrox14

[companionenvy]

I'm a nitpicker too, but frankly, the fact that Sam and Dean are still able to go about their merry way -- in the Impala, no less -- despite the fact that their faces have been plastered all over TV as "America's Most Wanted" on multiple occasions is so far beyond the bounds of credibility that if I didn't let it go, I couldn't watch the show at all. I don't care that they are supposed to be dead twice over. Sam and Dean are distinctive looking guys, to say the least, and having reappeared after being supposedly killed once, tons of people who see them should start wondering if rumors of their death haven't been greatly exaggerated.

That's not even getting into the fact that there's an in-universe SPN fandom who knows enough of the story that they should have had some massive questions when police started looking for brothers named Sam and Dean who traveled around in a 1967 Chevy Impala. Especially because if Chuck's books maintain even a modicum of accuracy about most events, it should be possible to trace a lot of their real-world activities from the first five seasons. I mean, presumably there's a version of Nightshifter out there, in which Sam and Dean tangle with the feds after a hold-up in a bank. Even if Chuck were changing other characters' names and some locations, it wouldn't be too hard to make the connection to highly public real world events. 

So, I'll accept the PO box. 

[gonzosgirrl]

Interestingly (or, you know, not), TVLine May Sweeps Scorecard didn't count Crowley in their 'Fatalities' category. They did count Joshua, Dagon & Eileen.

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Interestingly (or, you know, not), TVLine May Sweeps Scorecard didn't count Crowley in their 'Fatalities' category. They did count Joshua, Dagon & Eileen.

Is anybody supposed to think he's dead (besides stupid Lucifer)?  He didn't spark up and as fast and loose as the show gets with its cannon, they have never once left that out of a demon kill.

[gonzosgirrl]

Just now, Katy M said:

Is anybody supposed to think he's dead (besides stupid Lucifer)?  He didn't spark up and as fast and loose as the show gets with its cannon, they have never once left that out of a demon kill.

Yeah, that was kind of my point: there wasn't any suspense that he was actually dead. At all. I almost felt a little sorry for Mark S that there was no outcry on Twitter, etc, over it. I guess we really are all just that jaded now, lol. I honestly don't understand the whole purpose of the scene at all, when literally everyone knows that demons spark up when killed -- but Lucifer doesn't?

[Diane]

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Is anybody supposed to think he's dead (besides stupid Lucifer)?  He didn't spark up and as fast and loose as the show gets with its cannon, they have never once left that out of a demon kill.

I don't think so, I posted that he wasn't on the scorecard on Friday in the spoilers forum. I thought that meant it was pretty certain that he wasn't dead. The scorecard on TVline is usually pretty accurate.

[Wayward Son]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Yeah, that was kind of my point: there wasn't any suspense that he was actually dead. At all. I almost felt a little sorry for Mark S that there was no outcry on Twitter, etc, over it. I guess we really are all just that jaded now, lol. I honestly don't understand the whole purpose of the scene at all, when literally everyone knows that demons spark up when killed -- but Lucifer doesn't?

Yeah, I think Mark S and the show in general were anticipating the so called 'death' of Crowley as a big talking point / point of outrage in fandom. However, the way the scene was written, particularly the lack of spark and the convenience of the rat, made it obvious that the death wasn't real thus ridding the whole scenario of any suspense.

I just hope he hasn't taken the lack of outrage about Crowley's death as some sort of indication that the fandom doesn't  care about Crowley. IMO it's a reflection of BuckLemming's poor writing and not Mark / Crowley's popularity (or lack thereof).

Edited May 15, 2017 by Wayward Son

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Yeah, I think Mark S and the show in general were anticipating the so called 'death' of Crowley as a big talking point / point of outrage in fandom. However, the way the scene was written, particularly the lack of spark and the convenience of the rat, made it obvious that the death wasn't real thus ridding the whole scenario of any suspense.

I just hope he hasn't taken the lack of outrage about Crowley's death as some sort of indication that the fandom doesn't  care about Crowley. 

As much as I hated the fake-out of Rowena's 'death' at Casifer's hands, I did believe it. This was just another example of the assy writing that is S12.

ETA: Me too. If I had to choose between Crowley and Cas, I'd keep Crowley. JMO though.

Edited May 15, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Wynne88]

Quote

I honestly don't understand the whole purpose of the scene at all, when literally everyone knows that demons spark up when killed -- but Lucifer doesn't?

Maybe he hasn't seen that many demons killed?  Almost certainly not while he was in the cage.  Not sure since he's been out.

[DittyDotDot]

26 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Yeah, I think Mark S and the show in general were anticipating the so called 'death' of Crowley as a big talking point / point of outrage in fandom. However, the way the scene was written, particularly the lack of spark and the convenience of the rat, made it obvious that the death wasn't real thus ridding the whole scenario of any suspense.

I just hope he hasn't taken the lack of outrage about Crowley's death as some sort of indication that the fandom doesn't  care about Crowley. IMO it's a reflection of BuckLemming's poor writing and not Mark / Crowley's popularity (or lack thereof).

I don't know if they could've convinced me Crowley was dead. They've done this sort of thing too much that I never believe it anymore. Even Rowena getting her neck snapped by Lucifer, didn't believe it. Was sure she'd be back. I believe deaths of minor characters like Eileen, but regular recurring characters? Nope.

Mark Sheppard trying really hard to convince me otherwise doesn't help either. ;)

Edited May 15, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Katy M]

13 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

Maybe he hasn't seen that many demons killed?  Almost certainly not while he was in the cage.  Not sure since he's been out.

He's killed a few, but I think maybe he did them all by snapping and maybe he thinks that's different. How did he kill the demons in Somewhere Between Heaven and hell?  I don't remember.  Snapping, I think. 

8 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't know if they could've convinced me Crowley was dead. They've done this sort of thing too much that I never believe it anymore. Even Rowena getting her neck snapped by Lucifer, didn't believe it. Was sure she'd be back. I believe deaths of minor characters like Eileen, but regular recurring characters? Nope.

Tell that to John, Bobby, Ruby, Samuel, and Kevin.  All of whom had been in at least, or almost at least as many epis as Rowena had at that point.  Now, you've upset me about Bobby again.  His is really the only death that I lament, or that surprised me. John's may have, but I didn't start watching until Season 3, so obviously it couldn't have.

[Dobian]

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

I'm a nitpicker too, but frankly, the fact that Sam and Dean are still able to go about their merry way -- in the Impala, no less -- despite the fact that their faces have been plastered all over TV as "America's Most Wanted" on multiple occasions is so far beyond the bounds of credibility that if I didn't let it go, I couldn't watch the show at all. I don't care that they are supposed to be dead twice over. Sam and Dean are distinctive looking guys, to say the least, and having reappeared after being supposedly killed once, tons of people who see them should start wondering if rumors of their death haven't been greatly exaggerated.

The show never should have made them America's Most Wanted, and they never should have compounded it a thousand times over for making them wanted for attempting to assassinate the POTUS.  The manhunt would have been so fierce they would have been caught within 48 hours if they were trying to lay low, within 24 hours the way they casually travel about.  Why the writers thought it would be a great idea to put Lucifer in the POTUS is beyond me.

[ahrtee]

50 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

Maybe he hasn't seen that many demons killed?  Almost certainly not while he was in the cage.  Not sure since he's been out.

Well, he had demons possess and then exploded most of the male population (IIRC) of Carthage, MO when he raised Death, and all of them gave off pretty white lights when they went poof.  But that was a long time ago (and a whole different set of writers.)  But I can see him being arrogant enough to assume that, as King, anyone he killed would stay dead, without worrying about details.  

[Idahoforspn]

37 minutes ago, Dobian said:

The show never should have made them America's Most Wanted, and they never should have compounded it a thousand times over for making them wanted for attempting to assassinate the POTUS.  The manhunt would have been so fierce they would have been caught within 48 hours if they were trying to lay low, within 24 hours the way they casually travel about.  Why the writers thought it would be a great idea to put Lucifer in the POTUS is beyond me.

If I remember correctly, the writers didn't want to do the President storyline but Singer and Dabb insisted. Shows the quality of their judgement.

[MysteryGuest]

Because I've just been waiting for someone to die, I was apprehensive about Crowley's fate when Lucifer made him walk toward the Angel Blade.  But as soon as he stabbed him I saw the rat, and knew right away that Crowley wasn't dead.  I'm sure there are people who didn't notice, so the kill might have worked for part of the audience. I get that it was a tricky thing to pull off.  Obviously, had Crowley smoked out into the rat, Lucifer would have seen that.  And if they didn't show the rat at all, then the fans would have cried bullshit if they suddenly concocted the rat story.  It's probably best to just not go there with the Fab Four, and continue to put the secondary characters in jeopardy, because at least there's a 50/50 chance they could be killed.

[Katy M]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

What the show should have said was that Eileen didn't trust the boys hadn't been hacked either so that's why she didn't call them even with a burner phone.

But, why do we have to be spoonfed everything?  I would think that would be pretty obvious.  If you work with someone, and you're being watched by someone you have in common, why wouldn't you assume the other people are being watched also.  Sam and Dean would have immediately realized her thought process when receiving the letter, and I don't need to watch their intelligence be insulted by Eileen who knew they would know just to be spoonfed obvious information.

[auntvi]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

Tell that to John, Bobby, Ruby, Samuel, and Kevin.  All of whom had been in at least, or almost at least as many epis as Rowena had at that point.  Now, you've upset me about Bobby again.  His is really the only death that I lament, or that surprised me. John's may have, but I didn't start watching until Season 3, so obviously it couldn't have.

I liked Bobby a lot. The episode when he died was well done, IMO, probably the best send off they've done. I really liked Kevin, too. They both were nice reality checks for Sam & Dean (and the audience).

[catrox14]

26 minutes ago, Katy M said:

But, why do we have to be spoonfed everything?  I would think that would be pretty obvious.  If you work with someone, and you're being watched by someone you have in common, why wouldn't you assume the other people are being watched also.  Sam and Dean would have immediately realized her thought process when receiving the letter, and I don't need to watch their intelligence be insulted by Eileen who knew they would know just to be spoonfed obvious information.

Why is that being spoonfed? It's exposition. This show has handled more stupid things with exposition. Why is it insulting to their intelligence for Eileen to have said in her letter, that she didn't trust any kind of digital communications with the boys on either side. What was more insulting to the boys IMO was them not looking under the damn table they have all their important conversations until the very last.

[rue721]

21 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Why is that being spoonfed? It's exposition.

Your mileage may vary, but IMO Eileen explained herself just fine when she said she thought her communication was being monitored. I don't think that she needed to go into more detail. Exposition is on a need-to-know basis, and I don't really need to know what Eileen's exact thought process was for sending snail mail rather than texting from a burner. That information being overkill and unnecessary (IMO) is what would have made its inclusion feel to me like spoon-feeding rather than exposition.

Honestly, I think that the show could take more risks in terms of making us fill in the blanks in terms of plot -- and could spend more time filling in the blanks in terms of character instead. Like, I don't need a whole lot of information from the horse's mouth about why/when burners are used (or not), but I would like more information on the characters' opinions, thoughts and feelings lol.

Edited May 16, 2017 by rue721

[DittyDotDot]

22 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Honestly, I think that the show could take more risks in terms of making us fill in the blanks in terms of plot -- and could spend more time filling in the blanks in terms of character instead.

Ain't that the damn truth!

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 hours ago, Idahoforspn said:

If I remember correctly, the writers didn't want to do the President storyline but Singer and Dabb insisted. Shows the quality of their judgement.

Do you have proof of this or is this just hearsay?  (And No - IMO, this doesn't fit into the "no one need prove their opinion" rule since it was stated as fact.)

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Why is that being spoonfed? It's exposition. This show has handled more stupid things with exposition. Why is it insulting to their intelligence for Eileen to have said in her letter, that she didn't trust any kind of digital communications with the boys on either side. What was more insulting to the boys IMO was them not looking under the damn table they have all their important conversations until the very last.

It's unnecessary exposition as both we and the boys could figure that out very easily.  And, yes, SAm and Dean were stupid to not  look under the , heck, they were stupid to stay in the  bunker after Toni kidnapped Sam from there, but tht's not what I'm talking about.  I'm talking about taking an otherwise likeable character having her overexplain to e boys because she thinks they're morons for not being able to figure out the obvious by themselves.  I can't remember for sure, but wasn't it immediately after reading the letter that they went and searched for bugs in the bunker, kind of proving my point

[ahrtee]

27 minutes ago, Katy M said:

It's unnecessary exposition as both we and the boys could figure that out very easily.  And, yes, SAm and Dean were stupid to not  look under the , heck, they were stupid to stay in the  bunker after Toni kidnapped Sam from there, but tht's not what I'm talking about.  I'm talking about taking an otherwise likeable character having her overexplain to e boys because she thinks they're morons for not being able to figure out the obvious by themselves.  I can't remember for sure, but wasn't it immediately after reading the letter that they went and searched for bugs in the bunker, kind of proving my point

I think the exposition she gave was fine, considering the constraints of the plot (that is, she had to be in danger, warn the Winchesters and yet not be anywhere where they might possibly save her.)   I also don't think her giving more explanation would mean that she thinks they're morons.  

My issue (as I said before) was why she didn't go straight to Kansas (either when she first thought she was compromised or when she knew she was being followed) instead of just snail mailing, asking if she could come; especially since she had no reason to think they would say no.  Showing up on their doorstep would have cut the exposition down to: "We're glad to see you, but what's wrong?"  "I think the BMOL have me bugged and are following me."  "Get in here so we can protect you, and, oops, we'd better check our own security."

Ketch and his hellhound might have caught her before she got there, but at least *she* wouldn't have seemed like a moron for not going there immediately.  JMO.

[DittyDotDot]

45 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

My issue (as I said before) was why she didn't go straight to Kansas (either when she first thought she was compromised or when she knew she was being followed) instead of just snail mailing, asking if she could come; especially since she had no reason to think they would say no.

What makes you think she wasn't going straight to the bunker? I mean, maybe she took a boat from Ireland to South Carolina, trying to stay off the radar by not flying, and Ketch found her before she had a chance to make her way to the bunker? And, maybe she wrote the letter before she left Ireland hoping it would get there about the same time she did? 

I guess I never thought she was worried they'd say no, but just trying to let them know she'd be stopping by since she couldn't call politely call ahead.

[catrox14]

The more I think about that letter, the angrier I get. I HATED BL making a bad ass female hunter say to Sam and Dean "Not to get all girly". WTF, man, just WTF.  They just did Eileen so dirty, making her die by something she had no chance against, where her disability is basically WHY she died, not giving her ONE word of dialogue before being mauled by a hellhound, and then having her more or less apologize for wanting to stay with them at the bunker and framing it as her being "girly". JFC, they would NEVER have had Garth or anyone apologize for asking for protection.

Fuck you, Buckleming

[Katy M]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

making her die by something she had no chance against, where her disability is basically WHY she died, not giving her ONE word of dialogue before being mauled by a hellhound

Name one person who has taken on a hell hound and won without having glasses dipped in holy oil?  If she had had those her deafness wouldn't have made much difference, but not having them, her deafess didn't make her much more vulnerable than anyone else.  She did not get torn apart by hell hounds because she was Deaf. She got torn apart by a hell hound because it was a hell hound.

I will add, since you brought it up, though, that I've never thought hunting was a great idea for a Deaf person the moment she was introduced.  Especially without a partner.  There is a reason there are no Deaf cops, firefighters, or soldiers.

[Katy M]

6 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Link?  I missed it.

I didn't see it either, and I'm glad.  You have disagreements with your co-workers, you keep it between your co-workers.  Unless there are laws being broken or other immoral behavior, you never ever ever take your internal grievances to the public.  NEVER!  There is no excuse for that.  But, since I didn't see it, for me it doesn't exist and I can ignore it.

[CluelessDrifter]

24 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Name one person who has taken on a hell hound and won without having glasses dipped in holy oil?  If she had had those her deafness wouldn't have made much difference, but not having them, her deafess didn't make her much more vulnerable than anyone else.  She did not get torn apart by hell hounds because she was Deaf. She got torn apart by a hell hound because it was a hell hound.

I will add, since you brought it up, though, that I've never thought hunting was a great idea for a Deaf person the moment she was introduced.  Especially without a partner.  There is a reason there are no Deaf cops, firefighters, or soldiers.

I don't have a problem with Eileen hunting, but I think the story would have done well to show us how she got around being deaf and a hunter.  Did she use technology, like thermal imaging?  Did she have special practices in place to keep her safe that were second nature to her, but not something we typically see on the show?  These are things that could've been fleshed out more either in previous episodes if they planned for her to die in this episode all along(the reason, I'm guessing they brought her back in the first place) or future episodes she'll never have now (wasted potential).  

I have no problems with her being taken out by a hellhound if she didn't have the Colt or Ruby's knife (I'm guessing an angel blade would've done the trick too, but we didn't see her with one of those either).  That's actually more in keeping with previous hellhound canon than them being deterred by an axe and a water cooler.  It's the set up for her death that was a problem for me.  All we saw was her running through the woods with no explanation on how she got there.  It turned her from a hunter into just another faceless victim until the end when she turned to fire at the hellhound.  They should've given us more.  

They could've shown how she got there to give us an idea of how capable she is as a hunter before she died.  They could've shown her to be smart by finding a way to hold the hellhound off long enough to get a message to the Winchesters before it killed her.  They could've had her find a way to hide her scent or soul or whatever using tricks she's learned that maybe we haven't seen, since she was raised by a hunter on another continent.  If they'd done that, she could've met up with the Winchesters to tell them what happened, and then she could've been fatally shot in the shootout in the bunker if there was a reason she had to die in this episode, i.e. Shoshannah couldn't do the show anymore (although I've seen no evidence of this).  Then the cliffhanger wouldn't have been whether or not Sam and Dean would get out of the bunker in the 2 days they have, because we all know they will, but would they get out in time to save Eileen.  If she had to die, they could've had it happen at the start of the next episode, or that's what I think.  It would've given more weight and dignity to her death than what we got.  Again, IMO.

[catrox14]

23 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Name one person who has taken on a hell hound and won without having glasses dipped in holy oil?  If she had had those her deafness wouldn't have made much difference, but not having them, her deafess didn't make her much more vulnerable than anyone else.  She did not get torn apart by hell hounds because she was Deaf. She got torn apart by a hell hound because it was a hell hound.

I will add, since you brought it up, though, that I've never thought hunting was a great idea for a Deaf person the moment she was introduced.  Especially without a partner.  There is a reason there are no Deaf cops, firefighters, or soldiers.

Sam Winchester. He conveniently lost his special glasses and still managed  to get lucky and kill the hell hound without them. But Eileen wasn't hunting a hellhound so why would she have had the glasses.  Fucking Ketch didn't have the glasses either but he got a magical dog whistle that allows him to control a hellhound and be able to feed it a treat. So both Sam and Ketch were able to either defeat or control a hellhound without the special glasses.

It was pretty obvious the show intended for us to see that her disability was absolutely used against her by Ketch because the sound dropped out when they focused on her terrified face as she was running from the hellhound.so we could empathize with her terror. She couldn't use sight to make up for her lack of hearing.

Also, there actually are deaf firefighters in the US. Not many but

some

:http//www.northescambia.com/2009/03/adams-story-one-of-the-few-deaf-firefighters-in-america

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

It was pretty obvious the show intended for us to see that her disability was absolutely used against her by Ketch because the sound dropped out when they focused on her terrified face as she was running from the hellhound.so we could empathize with her terror. She couldn't use sight to make up for her lack of hearing.

Well, if you're going to choose to be a Deaf hunter, then you can't complain if some monster gets you because you can't hear it.  But, Sam got lucky, and he started out with the glasses.  Dean got torn apart by hell hunds in No Rest for the wicked.  He wasn't Deaf.  Jo got attacked by a Hell Hound in Abandon all Hope, and she wasn't Deaf.  Yeah, Dean was able to get her away, but there were 4 of them, not one. 

Exactly what monster are you going to be hunting where Deafness is not going to be a liability, so that you think it's only Hell Hounds?  How many times have we seen Sam and Dean swing around and shoot or stab something because they HEARD the monster approaching. Or the other one yelled out a warning to them?

[catrox14]

The entire point of Ketch having an invisible hellhound that he could control was to terrorize the deaf Hunter.

6 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Well, if you're going to choose to be a Deaf hunter, then you can't complain if some monster gets you because you can't hear it.  But, Sam got lucky, and he started out with the glasses.  Dean got torn apart by hell hunds in No Rest for the wicked.  He wasn't Deaf.  Jo got attacked by a Hell Hound in Abandon all Hope, and she wasn't Deaf.  Yeah, Dean was able to get her away, but there were 4 of them, not one. 

Exactly what monster are you going to be hunting where Deafness is not going to be a liability, so that you think it's only Hell Hounds?  How many times have we seen Sam and Dean swing around and shoot or stab something because they HEARD the monster approaching. Or the other one yelled out a warning to them?

Hunters do not hunt hellhounds as a matter of course. Hellhounds were only ever used to drag a person to Hell because they made a deal with a crossroads demon or were under the control of a demon. It was only in s9, in  a Buck Lemming script that hell hounds were now just random guard dogs that would attack a human without being told told to do so.

I suspect she used the standard tech all hunters do. She can use her other senses like smell, sight and  pick up vibration and movement more readily than a hearing person.

The problem is that Eileen was a deaf character killed  because of her deafness. They used it against her. All to further Ketch's villain arc and that poor Sam lost another woman.

[Katy M]

29 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The problem is that Eileen was a deaf character killed  because of her deafness. They used it against her. All to further Ketch's villain arc and that poor Sam lost another woman.

I still disagree and say that a hearing person would have been killed just as quickly by a Hell Hound. Her Deafness had zero, or at least very little, to do with it.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

I still disagree and say that a hearing person would have been killed just as quickly by a Hell Hound. Her Deafness had zero, or at least very little, to do with it.

Im curious why you think the director/ editor/ writer had the sound drop out twice when they were showing her face as she was trying to look around to find it and she couldn't? Show me any other occasions in this show where the person being oursied by the hellhound could not hear it?

This was a horror trope used by BL, using a person's disability against them. It's like the film Don't Be Afraid of the Dark, wherin the blind character's blindness was used against her and later she used her blindess to her advantage.

BL did not give Eileen any chance to really defend herself again the Ketch controlled hellhound. They used it to have Ketch terrorize her and kill her.

[SueB]

The "no sound" could have been a director's choice.  

I think a Hell Hound is an uber-monster and 99.99999% of the time they kill what they are hunting.  Deaf or not, Eileen stood very little chance.  What pisses me off is hearing Eugenia's voice saying 'You have to kill your darlings." (yes, she said that on one of the DVDs).  

That is so last decade.  "24" took the shock out of the shock death (I will avenge Edgar some day, I WILL!!!!).  But B-L are older and it shows.  So is Singer.  They think this is good storytelling.  They want an emotional reaction out of the fans. Dan what's-his-name made the same mistake on the 100.  Yes, you want an emotional response but you don't want it to take you out of the story telling (which this did for me).  

For me, if they wanted to kill off someone, I want them to go down swinging like a hero.  I wish Eileen had somehow hurt the hound, leaving it's black blood as evidence.  So Crowley couldn't get away with his lie.  That at least would have exposed the Crowley/BMoL connection. Some modicum of story point.  

Edited May 16, 2017 by SueB

[Bessie]

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

The more I think about that letter, the angrier I get. I HATED BL making a bad ass female hunter say to Sam and Dean "Not to get all girly". WTF, man, just WTF.

That really irritated me, too. Completely unnecessary to the plot and just careless misogyny. 

[Katy M]

19 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Im curious why you think the director/ editor/ writer had the sound drop out twice when they were showing her face as she was trying to look around to find it and she couldn't? Show me any other occasions in this show where the person being oursied by the hellhound could not hear it?

So, that we could experience it as she was experiencing it.  I'm curious as to what you thought she was going to do if she COULD hear it.  Show me any other occasions in this show where the person being chased by the Hell hound could outrun it.  Like someone else said, she doesn't have the demon killing knife, or the colt, we didn't see an angel blade or a rock salt fileld shotgun (which would have only done so much good anyway). Hearing the sucker was not going to help her that much, if at all.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, SueB said:

I think a Hell Hound is an uber-monster and 99.99999% of the time they kill what they are hunting.  D

Except when Crowley called them off in s9 and when Sam and the gal in that episode this season managed to hit it with an axe and Sam stabbed it even though he couldn't see it.

BL could have given her a fighting chance.But they just slaughtered her. It's like how they dumbed down Charlie before ki!ling her for a false motive for Dean as though he really needed THAT motive when he had the Moc

[DittyDotDot]

30 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Im curious why you think the director/ editor/ writer had the sound drop out twice when they were showing her face as she was trying to look around to find it and she couldn't? Show me any other occasions in this show where the person being oursied by the hellhound could not hear it?

Yes, they dropped the sound to amp up the tension in that scene, but I don't think it was necessarily because Eileen was deaf. For one, without the sound, the audience doesn't immediately know what's after Eileen. And two, only the intended victims of hellhounds are supposed to be able to hear them. It's what you or I would hear if we were witnessing the scene and mostly likely what Ketch was hearing while he watched the scene. In a weird way it puts us in both Eileen and Ketch's experiences. So, I'm not sure they really thought about Eileen being deaf as much as they were going for a certain creepy style to ramp up the tension.

But, you are correct that Eileen was "fridged." Which is what I think your outrage is really about. She died for man pain and died in a rather pitiful way too boot. Eileen was dead regardless if she was deaf or not, but it would've nice if they'd found a better twist on it. I think it could've been cool if she could hear the hellhounds or something like that. I only ask that if you must kill a character, do it well. I'm not sure they needed to kill Eileen, though, but what do I know?

Edited May 16, 2017 by DittyDotDot