The Mythology and Folklore of American Gods

[Athena]

This is a spoiler-free and book talk free thread about the mythologies, gods, religions, and folklore that is in the show or that may have inspired the show.

[starri]

I'm still trying to figure out if the third Zorya actually has any basis in reality.  Gaiman unambiguously states that she was completely his creation, but Wikipedia says that she is sometimes mentioned in the legends.  But when I investigate further, the only references I find are on New Age sites, so I can't help thinking that someone may just have coopted the book, not realizing she's fictional.

[Lemur]

2 hours ago, starri said:

I'm still trying to figure out if the third Zorya actually has any basis in reality.  Gaiman unambiguously states that she was completely his creation, but Wikipedia says that she is sometimes mentioned in the legends.  But when I investigate further, the only references I find are on New Age sites, so I can't help thinking that someone may just have coopted the book, not realizing she's fictional.

I assumed she was fictional as she didn't show up in any of the Russian or Ukrainian culture classes I took in college.  It also seems odd to have a "three-part" goddess in Slavic mythology which seemed to be more dualistic in nature.  If Zorya Polunochnaya is the midnight star, her dualistic counterpart would be the midday sun, or so I've seen argued.  

[vavera4ka]

Here's the thing. The two sisters that guard Dazhbog - god of Sun are not Zorya, but Zaryas. Zorya is a star. Zarya is the word that describes the time when day and night meet. Both meetings. So there is Vechernyaya Zarya - evening, and Utrennyaya Zarya - morning. Sisters serve the Sun: greeting and seeing him off, preparing his horses in the morning and tending to them in the evening.

[yagathai]

5 hours ago, starri said:

I'm still trying to figure out if the third Zorya actually has any basis in reality.  Gaiman unambiguously states that she was completely his creation, but Wikipedia says that she is sometimes mentioned in the legends.  But when I investigate further, the only references I find are on New Age sites, so I can't help thinking that someone may just have coopted the book, not realizing she's fictional.

Fictional as opposed to what?

This is exactly how myths happen, isn't it? Someone make something up, other people start repeating it and then boom, mythology achieved.

[starri]

1 minute ago, yagathai said:

Fictional as opposed to what?

Meaning that she didn't come from a preexisting pantheon but instead out of Gaiman's head.

1 hour ago, vavera4ka said:

Zorya is a star. Zarya is the word that describes the time when day and night meet. Both meetings. So there is Vechernyaya Zarya - evening, and Utrennyaya Zarya - morning.

Every source that I've ever seen refers to them as either the Zorya or the Zorja.  And if Zorya Pulunochnaya is the moon as the Midnight Star, then calling the other two stars only makes sense, especially since Venus is sometimes called both the Morning and the Evening Star, and Mercury is also sometimes the Evening Star.

[Eneya]

Depends. As I mentioned, they are sometimes the same person with three aspects or three individuals, again, three aspects, symbols if you wish. Mostly, it is Vechernica and Zortnitsa (which are Evening star and Morning star), Polunoshtna is a bit of a romantic add-on or a free-association. Please note, Russian mythology is not all of Balkan mythology. There is quite a lot others, like zmeys and samodivas and I think the latter maybe be somewhat linked with the sisters even though samodivas are more closely to water nymphs...

[vavera4ka]

43 minutes ago, starri said:

Meaning that she didn't come from a preexisting pantheon but instead out of Gaiman's head.

Every source that I've ever seen refers to them as either the Zorya or the Zorja.  And if Zorya Pulunochnaya is the moon as the Midnight Star, then calling the other two stars only makes sense, especially since Venus is sometimes called both the Morning and the Evening Star, and Mercury is also sometimes the Evening Star.

here's the source that uses Zarya or Zarenitsa if you can read Russian...

[yagathai]

Is it a spoiler to talk about who the gods are? I guess probably not if they're named. Just to be safe I'll put a spoiler tag in if they're named in the credits but not named in the episode, since theoretically some of that stuff could be considered book knowledge.

Updated for Season 1 Episode 3, Head Full of Snow.

OLD GODS

Mad Sweeney -- A leprechaun, sort of (see below). Has a stash of gold coins, likes to drink Southern Comfort and fight. Unlucky.

Mr. Wednesday aka Wotan -- better known to US audiences as Odin, one-eyed trickster god of the Norse pantheon. He can summon thunder and lightning, he can sleep anywhere (the Odinsleep), and he seduces young virgins. The word "Wednesday" is thought to come from "Wotan's Day", so when he said that Wednesday was his day, he meant it literally. 

Bilquis, Queen of Sheba -- As mentioned earlier in the thread, she's the biblical figure that riddled King Solomon, who is in some mythologies a demon or djinn who is associated with Lilith and other temptress/fertility figures.

Czernobog -- literally, "the black god". Slavic deity of darkness. IRL not much is actually known about him, except from the fragmentary records of Christian missionaries who basically thought that all pagan gods were the devil. Because there's a black god, people expect that there must also be a white god, or "Belobog". The American Gods version of Czernobog seems to be leaning into this interpretation, even though IRL there's little to no actual evidence that Belobog existed. Czernobog is probably a regional variation of the pan-Slavic deity Veles, wooly serpent god of the underworld, whose opposite number was Perun, god of thunder.

The Zorya sisters -- discussed earlier in this thread. Basically the Slavic representations of morning and evening, only rejiggered for American Gods so that there are three of them, daytime, nighttime and twilight or something. They celestial attendants to the Sun, and so are often themselves cast as stars and/or the moon.

Anansi -- African spider-god, a trickster figure. Known in America via the Uncle Remus stories as Aunt Nancy, in AG as Mr. Nancy.

The white buffalo -- without getting into spoilers, the white buffalo is a powerful figure in various indigenous American mythologies, especially among the Plains tribes.

The Jinn -- The guy with the flaming eyes in the diner in Ep 2 and the well-endowed cab driver in Ep 3. Jinn (or djinn, or genie if you're a Disney fan) is a generic term for a kind of demon or spirit from Arabian mythology and Muslim theology.  Some of them grant wishes. This one does not. Unlike the demons in Christian mythology, djinn aren't always evil.  The flaming eyes imply that our guy is an ifrit, a kind of djinn associated with fire.

Anubis -- the golden-jackal-headed god of the Egyptian underworld. One of the major gods of the Egyptian pantheon, often cast as the bad guy. He's only bad sometimes, though. In AG he acts as a psychopomp, taking the souls of the dead to be judged in the afterlife. Because Neil Gaiman thinks he's very clever, in the story he goes by Mr. Jacquel. Technically speaking the golden jackal has been renamed the golden wolf because DNA testing reveals it's actually a wolf, not a jackal, so really he should be called Mr. Wolfe or something.

Bastet, Egyptian cat goddess -- Basically a cameo. Or maybe it was just a regular cat, who knows? I have a statue of her on my mantel. Meow.

And one god in Episode 1 who's never named on-screen but named in the credits so here's a spoiler tag. Seriously this one is a massive spoiler so don't click it if you don't want a huge reveal ruined for you: 

Spoiler

Low-Key Lyesmith, Shadow's prison cellmate. If you don't get it, say his name out loud.

One who's in the credits for all 3 eps so far but I don't remember being named on-screen.

Spoiler

Thoth, Egyptian God of science, judgement, writing, and a bunch of other things. Another heavy hitter in the Egyptian pantheon. Usually portrayed with the head of either a baboon or an ibis. Called Mr. Ibis in the show, because Mr. Baboon would probably sound stupid. In AG he's the narrator at the beginning, the very first voice you hear, and the hand writing the "Coming to America" stories. This is fitting because he is often cast in Egyptian mythology as a scribe.

NEW GODS

Tech Boy

Media

One in the credits of eps 2&3 but I don't remember him being named on screen: 

Spoiler

Mr. World

Edited May 15, 2017 by yagathai
Updates for ep 3

[starri]

Mad Sweeney isn't a leprechaun, exactly.  He's a character from a medieval folktale about a king named Shuibhe, who ruled an area in what's now Northern Ireland.  He was cursed with insanity, and spent the rest of his life roaming the countryside 

[Lemur]

Flaming Eyes Guy = Djinn or Jinn from Arabic mythology.

[Bruinsfan]

Czernobog is probably most familiar to American audiences as the demonic figure in the "Night on Bald Mountain" segment of Fantasia:

[Haleth]

Thanks, guys!  That's really helpful!

[buttercupia]

I always saw the Zoryas as maiden, mother, and crone, like the Norns. Deity forms repeat throughout the world so similar goddess triads are found in many cultures.

I can't remember since it's  been numpty years since I read the book and I just started a reread if Bielbog makes an appearance.

[starri]

Two new Gods (new Old Gods) this week:

Anubis/Mr. Jacquel is the Egyptian psychopomp who ushered the souls of the deceased into the afterlife.  Their version of Charon, the ferryman on the river Styx.  He guards the scales by which the heart of the deceased is weight against the feather of the Ma'at, the goddess of truth.  If the scales balanced, the soul goes on to its reward.  If it's heavier than the feather, the soul is sent to Ammit, devourer of souls.  Although as he says in the book, it's a pretty heavy feather.

And Bast, or Bastet, the kitty-cat.  She was a warrior goddess who protected Lower Egypt and the Nile Delta.  Although she probably should have been an Abyssinian, not a Sphynx, but I guess they couldn't resist the pun.

[starri]

Quote

Is pre-Christian really the right word, though? I thought the Norse religion, Muslim ifrits, and possibly the figures we're seeing from Slavic mythology were conceived within the last 2,000 years. (Anubis, of course, has been around at least 5,000 years so almost everyone is a whippersnapper by comparison.)

Let me apologize in advance, because this is going to get horribly pedantic.

There are two meanings to "pre-Christian," one that literally means "before Jesus," but another one that's closer to "before the Christians showed up to convert people."  It's hard to date some of this stuff, because a lot of the pagan beliefs predate written language (at least, written language that survives), and people only start recording it once the monks started showing up and writing it down.  And the early Christians had a habit of coopting local customs into their traditions (Jesus stole poor Mithras' birthday).  The Germanic tribes definitely had their runic language (a gift from Odin) by at least the early second century, and it would be a few hundred years before the Christians got there.

[NorthstarATL]

On 5/12/2017 at 8:50 AM, buttercupia said:

I always saw the Zoryas as maiden, mother, and crone, like the Norns. Deity forms repeat throughout the world so similar goddess triads are found in many cultures.

I can't remember since it's  been numpty years since I read the book and I just started a reread if Bielbog makes an appearance.

I thought they were as well, though the crone's appearance in daytime and the maiden's at night threw me off a bit. Gaiman made much use of the Triple Goddesses in his other work, so his use of them here is unsurprising, but welcome. In fact, pretty much everything in AG was also in Sandman.

[yagathai]

I updated my post upthread to reflect episode 3.

[Doyounot]

Thanks to everyone who is knowledgeable about the old gods real life mythology for posting it is definitely making me enjoy the show more. I will be reading after watching the episodes as I do know some stuff so i can still enjoy while watching but everything i know comes from all the "magical" tv ive watched over the years they are always used probably because its better than making up magical figures from scratch. Still helps though to supplement my knowledge for future episodes like this week i knew that the cat has roots in ancient Egyptian stories but not the name and specifics.

[vavera4ka]

On ‎5‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 9:37 AM, yagathai said:

 

And one god in Episode 1 who's never named on-screen but named in the credits so here's a spoiler tag. Seriously this one is a massive spoiler so don't click it if you don't want a huge reveal ruined for you: 

  Hide contents

Low-Key Lyesmith, Shadow's prison cellmate. If you don't get it, say his name out loud.

 

 

The funniest thing about it? I was listening to the book, and only about halfway through it donned on me... yeah... it's one of those 2+2 thing that didn't get associated with 4 in my brain till way later... lol

[basil]

Quote

 I was listening to the book, and only about halfway through it donned on me... yeah... it's one of those 2+2 thing that didn't get associated with 4 in my brain till way later... lol

I got it right away in the book as this is a favorite god of mine. Has his name been spoken in the series yet?

[vavera4ka]

27 minutes ago, basil said:

I got it right away in the book as this is a favorite god of mine. Has his name been spoken in the series yet?

I don't think so.

Also (putting in in spoiler tags cause it might help deducing)

Spoiler

He became my fav of the Scandinavian pantheon after Gaiman's Norse Mythology. Idk if that was his intention but I wanted to slap everybody else all the way to Sunday. lol

[yagathai]

1 hour ago, basil said:

I got it right away in the book as this is a favorite god of mine. Has his name been spoken in the series yet?

No, and it probably won't be this season. That's why I put it in spoiler tags.

[starri]

Thoth/Mr. Ibis - the Egyptian god of balance.  He was the husband of Ma'at, she who donated the feather to the scales of judgment.  He also served as the scribe of the gods, and invented hieroglyphics.  That's why we see him writing the "Coming to America" stories.

[yagathai]

Huh. Can't edit my master post anymore. Is that new? I could swear we used to be edit even weeks or months later.

[formerlyfreedom]

1 hour ago, yagathai said:

Huh. Can't edit my master post anymore. Is that new? I could swear we used to be edit even weeks or months later.

Nope, edit time for posters is one week. You can copy it and paste it in a new post if you'd like!

[Drogo]

Bringing this here - re: Laura having Woody Woodpecker on TV every night in her empty house.
 

Quote

 

For some, woodpeckers are considered symbolic spirit animals.

When this bird comes knocking in your dreams it is asking you to pay attention in your waking life. There may be something you have overlooked and it is trying to bring it back into your focus.

Many Native American tribes considered the woodpecker as an other-worldly messenger, and a prophet.

 

[AnimeMania]

Can somebody please explain the images in the opening credits, with an emphasis on how they might relate to America?

[netlyon2]

@AnimeMania, I'm sure others will add more detail, but I believe the central concept is a totem pole, resplendent with layers of traditional folklore/religion (old gods) and more modern/American concepts (newer gods).

That last image, with the eagle at the top of the totem looming over a crucified astronaut, always fascinates me!

Edited May 29, 2017 by netlyon2

[starri]

It's also about the fusion of the old and the new.  The angel clutching two assault rifles, Buddha blissed out on some kind of drugs, the menorah with audio jacks, Ganesh with smartphones.

[starri]

I guess this is our last goddess for the season.

Easter/Ostara, more commonly called Eostre (I assume they didn't use that because it sounds too much like "Easter") - A pre-Christian Anglo-Saxon goddess of the vernal equinox and all the things that go along with that, like fertility.  Much like Christmas, the early Christians adopted some of her pagan traditions and tidied them up to be a bit more in line with the Biblical story of Jesus.  Her big thing was rabbits, even something being depicted as being carried in a carriage pulled by them.  Curiously, she's one of the few gods we've met that's still worshiped in modern times, at least in some neopagan beliefs.

[ombre]

I'm working my way through a bit of Seamus Heaney these days and one of his poems sent me to finally looking up Sweeney's history.  I'm filled with new levels of appreciation for Gaiman's choice of Sweeney as a rootless mystical creature - his whole darned story is one of taking up arms to fight invading belief systems, then exile.  I'm also struck by the inexact parallels between his story and Odin's - both with significant time in trees, both with strong connections to birds - and between his exile and Shadow's manufactured isolation.  And his being followed by dead bodies seems particularly well suited to his current fate.  Obviously, these are not-uncommon traits in stories of tribal warrior cultures, but I'm enjoying seeing the places where the similarities meet difference - Odin (control freak gambler-in-search-of-a-big-win, information junkie that he is... not to mention privileged enough to know that he'll be fed) of *course* he tied himself to a danged tree for an extended period of time to get knowledge, but Sweeney is cursed into the trees in religious war.  In the episode, I got the impression of him as a warrior, but definitely not as someone looking forward to war.  Rather, as someone who knows the price of war and dreads it, which is very much how I would read the idea of that curse.  

Only tangentially related to the episode, I suppose, but it's given me an ever-deeper appreciation for the character and the choice of including him, so sharing in case it gives others the joy it's given me this morning.  I think when I finish Heaney's Field Work I may check out his Sweeney Astray.

[rollacoaster]

ombre, thank you so much for discovering and sharing this.

[SistaLadybug]

Anansi is very much alive, even now. I grew up on His stories and we were never allowed to kill spiders in our household, because they were Anansi, come to tell us something or find/reveal something we had lost.

[AuntieMame]

On 10/25/2018 at 10:47 AM, SistaLadybug said:

Anansi is very much alive, even now. I grew up on His stories and we were never allowed to kill spiders in our household, because they were Anansi, come to tell us something or find/reveal something we had lost.

I love that Anansi is still alive for you and still alive in the cultures he came from. I’m absolutely adoring Mr. Nancy and his stories and his spider thread sewing. 

We didnt kill spiders in our house either because they eat other more noxious bugs. I’m now adding that it is Anansi come to tell me something. Thank you for that. 

[ombre]

On 10/25/2018 at 12:47 PM, SistaLadybug said:

Anansi is very much alive, even now. I grew up on His stories and we were never allowed to kill spiders in our household, because they were Anansi, come to tell us something or find/reveal something we had lost.

At some point when I was much younger (elementary schoolish), we studied pantheons from all around the world.  There was absolutely no god who felt more alive than Anansi.  But we mostly learned stories that cast him as an older man - seeing prime-of-life Anansi in AG feels like a revelation!  (And has me very much marveling at how he had to be minimized, made frail, etc. when teaching him to little kids!)  

[AuntieMame]

13 hours ago, ombre said:

At some point when I was much younger (elementary schoolish), we studied pantheons from all around the world.  There was absolutely no god who felt more alive than Anansi.  But we mostly learned stories that cast him as an older man - seeing prime-of-life Anansi in AG feels like a revelation!  (And has me very much marveling at how he had to be minimized, made frail, etc. when teaching him to little kids!)  

I know, Orlando Jones is doing an incredible job isn’t he? I see the trickster, I see the mysterious compassion of a God for humanity but I also see the force of a god that commands awe. I’m going to read more about Anansi. 

[ombre]

20 hours ago, AuntieMame said:

I know, Orlando Jones is doing an incredible job isn’t he? I see the trickster, I see the mysterious compassion of a God for humanity but I also see the force of a god that commands awe. I’m going to read more about Anansi. 

RIGHT?

I study Frederick Douglass, which means I spend pretty much all day every day reading primary and secondary sources about black life in the 19th century.  And every gosh-darned thing I read shows how Anansi would be the one who you'd pray to, even if you weren't naming him as such.  Not just the desire to just somehow trick your way out of slavery (although... duh!) but after the war, seeing how time and again promises were made and then simply ignored - in civil rights, in contracts, in politics... the list goes on and on.  So many times when the tables were turned against you.  How could you not hope and pray for some god of turning the tables yourself?  I'm glad it's getting some solid play here, and soooo much more than glad to have Jones in the role to knock it out of the park again and again and again.

[starri]

Haven't done one of these for a long time.

Our major introduction was to Mama-ji, the Hindu goddess Kali.  The Hindu pantheon is a bit more complicated than the majority of the European ones, so various schools interpret her in slightly different ways.  She is generally viewed as a destroyer, but despite that, she is often interpreted as the mother of the universe, and therefore more of a protector.

[qtpye]

On 3/10/2019 at 4:17 PM, starri said:

Haven't done one of these for a long time.

Our major introduction was to Mama-ji, the Hindu goddess Kali.  The Hindu pantheon is a bit more complicated than the majority of the European ones, so various schools interpret her in slightly different ways.  She is generally viewed as a destroyer, but despite that, she is often interpreted as the mother of the universe, and therefore more of a protector.

In my family she is the Goddess of love and death. She is often depicted as a force of nature that can not be controlled until she accidentally sets her foot on her beloved husband, Shiv (in Indian society that is a sign of great disrespect). To see her as a kindly elderly woman was interesting and not something I expected.

Edited to add that she often wears a necklace of severed heads and usually has her tongue sticking out.

Edited March 19, 2019 by qtpye