S03.E04: G'Day Melbourne

[Save Yourself]

@MyBad

 

That would work because Perth is 3 hours behind us (I'm in Sydney and Melbourne is in the same time zone) in summer so that would make it 7.35am in Perth. Usually they are only 2 hours behind but daylight saving adds an extra hour. 

Edited May 9, 2017 by Save Yourself

[WearyTraveler]

On 5/8/2017 at 3:09 AM, ShellSeeker said:

But last week, I thought the guy who set himself on fire asked Kevin Sr the same question, and he (Kevin Sr) said no. Then the guy said that was how he'd answered too, and "they" said no. Or am I not recalling that correctly? I admit I had a hard time following the episode last week. So maybe it's some sort of arbitrary judgement call on the part of the 2 physicists? If they really are physicists I guess? Maybe she was supposed to say she'd nod, but she was too cavalier about it and they got a bad vibe from her?

I was thinking the correct answer is not saying a lie.  Let me explain.  I'm sure everyone here has taken one of those tests where you instinctively know the "right" answer to a question to get a better score. Burning man could have been thinking "well, if it cures cancer, sure! what's one baby compared to the lives of millions?", but, he believed that the morally correct answer is not to kill anyone; so, he says he wouldn't kill the baby.

Nora, OTOH, was thinking that they had sent that woman with her baby as a test, so, while she probably wouldn't kill a baby, even to cure cancer, she answered yes, because she thought that's what the women interviewing her wanted her to say.

There are many studies and experiments about "human lie detectors" out there.  People who can spot a lie by watching micro-expressions, and linguistic neuro-programming reactions.  So, perhaps if they knew for sure you were lying to them, they would deny you because they'd think you didn't trust them.

[Juliegirlj]

5 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

There are many studies and experiments about "human lie detectors" out there.  People who can spot a lie by watching micro-expressions, and linguistic neuro-programming reactions.  So, perhaps if they knew for sure you were lying to them, they would deny you because they'd think you didn't trust them.

Good point-it may be less about what people answered, and more about whether or not they answered honestly. Perhaps they want a non answer: if I were asked that question, honestly, I would have to say "I don't know". 

[Juliegirlj]

I think Nora thought she was investigating the machine, but, ultimately she actually wanted to go through with it. In fact, she wants it too much. The man that lit himself on fire became distraught and suicidal when denied, but, Nora, will probably not give up. It's possible that being denied is simply a test to find out just how badly they want/need to go. 

[Clanstarling]

Maybe it's a test of their decency and motives. The one woman seems to feel (if it was not just for show) that the likelihood is the machine is just sending them to their deaths.

So, if the prospect says kill the baby without any hesitation, s/he's deemed acceptable for the machine because then if the machine does indeed kill him/her, they won't feel guilty about it because the prospect has shown s/he doesn't have much compassion.

On the other hand, if the prospect says no, or carefully thinks through the question, as Nora did, then they're rejected because they have more decency?

[tennisgurl]

That scene between Nora and Kevin was just painful to watch, it was so damn intense. Honestly though, I think Kevin landed a lot more hits than Nora than she did on him. I don't at all think that Kevin really wants to be New Jesus, but Nora totally lives and breathes her loss and her status as tragic victim. Not that she doesn't deserve it, but she had built up so much of her new identity as Tragic Mom Nora, that she struggles doing anything else.

Kevin is losing him damn mind, poor guy. To be fair, he might have actually seen and experienced some weird crazy shit, so seeing Evie in disguise in Australia really isn't out of the relm of possibility, especially on this show, where stuff like that seems to happen frequently, but in this case, the guy is clearly seeing things. Cant Kevin just catch a break? The poor guy has been on the verge of a breakdown since the first season, and it looks like he has finally crossed the break down threshold. Being closer to crazy dad and his new also crazy girlfriend isn't going to help his mental health.

So now we know what the deal was with the fire guy from last week! I honestly didn't think we were going to get an explanation for that, I just figured it would be more random weirdness. As for the question, there has to be a third option that neither Nora or the other guy thought of, like " I would grab both babies and make a break for it" or they would have to answer right away without thinking about it. I have no idea, and I have no idea what they're deal is. That's this show in a nutshell, really.

[meep.meep]

The more I think about it, I think the correct answer to "the question" has to be "I don't know."  They want people who don't have answers to put through the machine/whatever it is. 

[xaxat]

I actually reject the premise of the twins question. While there are tremendously talented people at work on a cure for cancer, it is highly unlikely that a single individual will be key to finding a cure. It's going to result from the collaborative work of a number of labs, scientists and grad students. Sure, the loss of one person may delay the process, but it's not going to stop it. 

Don't kill the baby. Someone else will find a cure.

[scrb]

What exactly was Nora's game plan?

She was going to go to take $20k in cash to meet strangers, in an unfamiliar city (unless she grew up in Melbourne, Australia and they haven't told us that before), and then once she sees the machine, she was going to take them down by herself, all 120 pounds of her?

Doesn't matter that the "physicists" she met were un-intimidating women.  Unless she's secretly a martial arts expert, Norah wasn't going to make them do anything, even if they were obviously fraudsters.

I already forgot what the argument they were having was about.  So intense that they just let a fire in the hotel room go on without doing anything about it.  I kind of suspect that Lindelof set up this fight just so they could have this scene of the hotel room burning down and Nora being drenched in the waters from the sprinklers in slow-mo, like it would have been some fancy music video back in the day.

Memorable images but very little content behind the form.

She disabled the smoke detector in the room.  If there was enough smoke to cause the detectors in other rooms from going off, bringing the fire dept., then she would have suffered from smoke inhalation, instead of just sitting in the bed while the sprinklers were flooding the room.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

A Great Love Goes Up In Smoke On The Leftovers

But is this really the end?

[Shermie]

Quote

I guess that any answer applicants give to the "Kill the baby to cure cancer?" question, results in rejection from the Join Your Departed program.

Or here's another theory: Nora was rejected because her answer wasn't sacrificial enough. She asked if the baby was hers, when they said no then she said okay. Maybe they only accept people willing to give everything.

Regarding the seven year time span between the departure and the alleged end of the world, those people are referring to the "tribulation" mentioned in the Bible. After the rapture, there will be seven years of tribulation, followed by the return of the Saviour. If they believe that the departure was the rapture (it means they also believe they weren't faithful enough to be taken), then it follows that some are looking for a Saviour or Messiah at the seven year mark. Hence, Kevin the Saviour.

If you believe all this, then the tribulation is supposed to be a terrible time of wars, famine, pestilence, natural disasters - a terrible time. I don't see the Leftovers world being that tribulation-y.

I do hope Justin Theroux gets an Emmy nom for this.

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, scrb said:

She disabled the smoke detector in the room.  If there was enough smoke to cause the detectors in other rooms from going off, bringing the fire dept., then she would have suffered from smoke inhalation, instead of just sitting in the bed while the sprinklers were flooding the room.

She knocked it off of the ceiling, which in my experience with the damned things, doesn't exactly disable them. So I'm willing enough to think the detector was still working and set off the sprinklers in her room. I imagine that to trigger sprinklers, the alarm and sprinklers need to be connected in some way, unlike the standard home smoke detector works. Maybe someone who knows more about the systems can explain.

OTOH, using physical/physics logic for this show is a bit pointless.

[Adusk81]

So everyone keeps saying how Kevin is losing it because he saw Evie. I thought that too. Until Kevin sr. showed up at the end. They were communicating through the tv again, just in a different way. Jr couldnt turn the tv off because he needed to see his father on the screen to pay attention. That's when he saw Evie. Then the tv wouldnt come back on so he physically went there to stand in the spot that he saw Evie so that Sr could see him and come to find him. 

While Neither Kevin is really sound of mind, it was confirmed by Sr's story about the hotel room that they really did communicate through the tv in secret agent even if he doesn't recall it. They clearly have a connection that some force is making happen. So I think seeing Evie simply forced Jr to be in the right place at the right time. 

[Juliegirlj]

When Kevin takes a picture of "Not Evie" to send to Laurie, the face on his phone was not Evie, but the librarian. Regardless of what otherworldly events that may be occurring, Kevin Jr does seem to be losing his grip on reality again. It's not a stretch of the imagination though, because Kevin's analytical mind just cannot come to grips with the unexplainable. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

She knocked it off of the ceiling, which in my experience with the damned things, doesn't exactly disable them. So I'm willing enough to think the detector was still working and set off the sprinklers in her room. I imagine that to trigger sprinklers, the alarm and sprinklers need to be connected in some way, unlike the standard home smoke detector works. Maybe someone who knows more about the systems can explain.

I thought Nora had covered it with tinfoil to try and prevent it from detecting smoke. 

I loved the orchestration of Take on Me.  I also really enjoyed the scenes between Kevin and Laurie.  She was trying so hard to protect him, and you could really see her struggle when trying to figure out what to do.  There are times when I haven't liked Amy Brenneman on other shows, but she's very good here. 

[stagmania]

Late to this one, but wow. This is the big implosion I've been expecting to see with Kevin and Nora for awhile, and it was so well done. 

On 5/8/2017 at 3:13 PM, Blakeston said:

I wouldn't be surprised if the people Nora met with are actually affiliated with the Guilty Remnant somehow.

Reaching out to grieving people, and getting their hopes up about being reunited with their families, and then dashing those hopes in a devastating way that will make them feel guilty about their answer ("I missed out on this opportunity because I said I'd kill a baby!", or, "I missed out because I chose not to cure cancer!") sounds like exactly the kind of thing they would do.

Agree it sounds like something they would do, though the show probably won't draw a straight line to them and will leave it ambiguous. There are probably plenty of nihilistic groups that sprung up in the aftermath of the Departure.

On 5/8/2017 at 4:45 PM, MyBad said:

Perhaps someone can clear this up for me as I would hope this isn't simply a blatant error on the part of the show's creators. This has to do with the timing of the Rapture as evidenced by Grace's story in the previous episode.

A few people have offered ways this could be accurate within Australia's time zones, but I think it could also point to Grace missing a pretty big clue that her kids didn't actually depart. After all, I doubt the precision of the timing was established or well known in the immediate aftermath of the event, so anyone who went missing at any time on that day (or even a few days after) may have been initially presumed to be departed. 

On 5/9/2017 at 10:07 AM, tennisgurl said:

That scene between Nora and Kevin was just painful to watch, it was so damn intense. Honestly though, I think Kevin landed a lot more hits than Nora than she did on him.

This is true and it got me thinking that Kevin understands and knows Nora a lot better than she knows him. She's entirely wrapped up in her own victimhood and often blatantly ignores the flashing red signs that something is very wrong with him. This was underlined by her poking fun at Matt's "story" about Kevin pushing the girl in the well-she clear had no idea that this was something Kevin actually experienced. That's on him, too, of course, for hiding so much from her. But often he will present himself to her injured, covered in blood or mud, trying to hurt himself right in front of her-and she just shrugs and pretends she doesn't see. 

On 5/9/2017 at 2:10 PM, scrb said:

What exactly was Nora's game plan?

She was going to go to take $20k in cash to meet strangers, in an unfamiliar city (unless she grew up in Melbourne, Australia and they haven't told us that before), and then once she sees the machine, she was going to take them down by herself, all 120 pounds of her?

She was going to get in the machine and try to join her children.

[Domestic Assassin]

Apparently one of the writers of this episode has commented on the correct answer to the baby/cancer question, see here.  

Quote

As it turns out, I was also wrong. Haley Harris, who wrote the episode (and also wrote ten pages of Kevin’s Bible) — suggested that IndieWire critic Ben Travers “covered it best.” It wasn’t about the answer to the question at all; it was about how the person answered the question.

Here, Nora had follow-up questions: Do the babies suffer? Are the babies her own twins? These follow-up questions elicited a smile from Dr. Bekker, who understood that it didn’t matter how Nora answered the question at that point, because by asking follow-up questions, Nora expressed a concern with the existing world. People who are going to be transported to another world shouldn’t be invested in what happens in their existing one, as Travers writes:

It’s not about what you do, it’s about what you don’t do. There is no family. Stop wasting your breath. Nothing matters. The stakes posed in the cancer question only matter to someone who’s invested in the outcome, and no one who’s ready to die to see their children should care about a past or a future. They’re going to another world where these things don’t matter

In other words, the best answer to the ‘Would You Kill a Baby To Cure Cancer?’ question is: “I don’t care.”

 

Edited May 11, 2017 by Moose Andsquirrel

[Clanstarling]

4 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I thought Nora had covered it with tinfoil to try and prevent it from detecting smoke. 

I loved the orchestration of Take on Me.  I also really enjoyed the scenes between Kevin and Laurie.  She was trying so hard to protect him, and you could really see her struggle when trying to figure out what to do.  There are times when I haven't liked Amy Brenneman on other shows, but she's very good here. 

She covered it in St. Louis, but accidentally knocked it down in Australia.

[Zaku]

Am I the only one who would refuse to answer the "ethical" test for the sheer idiocy of it?

[Clanstarling]

6 hours ago, Zaku said:

Am I the only one who would refuse to answer the "ethical" test for the sheer idiocy of it?

I don't know that I actively refused, but I didn't answer it. Those kinds of questions were fun in college, but not so much anymore - when life presents its own hard choices.

[Pallas]

On 5/15/2017 at 3:04 AM, Zaku said:

Am I the only one who would refuse to answer the "ethical" test for the sheer idiocy of it?

Kevin told his underworld nemesis that he refused to try to sing his way out of purgatory "because it's stupid." The show keeps putting characters in situations where it seems the price of what they yearn for most, is to do something lame. Pay Wayne and hug him. Chain-smoke and provoke. Gamble for the church. Drink the pederast's poison. Push Patti down a well. Sing karaoke. Divine the one true answer. 

As Matt wrote, That way madness lies, or faith. Or whatever Kevin's got going on. But I don't think Kevin returned to earth because he fought his way past the dragon Simon. He made it back because he offered up, not an answer, but a prayer worth making: gratitude. Gratitude for what is; the humility to accept that what is, is enough, and binds him to this world. 

Nora told Kevin that the gate-keepers she was going to confront knew all about him -- meaning, his role in her life -- and she assented in silence when Kevin protested, "And they still think you're going to get into that box?" They had reason. For four of the last seven years, Kevin and their family life had been the Mylar vest that Nora strapped on, then said to the world, "Take your best shot."  But Nora went back to work with a vengeance, exposing other people's lies and claims to pain; Jill left for school; Laurie and Tommy replaced Erika and Evie next door; Kevin left each day to ply the family trade with his adopted son; Christine came and took Lily.

After that, and with the 7th anniversary approaching, Nora was asking to be exposed herself. She was asking to get into that box. Or it could look that way, because sometimes she wanted to get into that box, just as sometimes, Kevin duct-taped a plastic bag around his neck. What they both wanted most was an end to the question of whether she should get into that box, or he should rip the bag off. So when Nora came home from St. Louis and found Kevin in their bedroom, on the verge of passing out, her relief was palpable: not just because she understood, but because she was off the hook. She began by embracing him and saying, "You don't need to explain, Kevin," which he countered with the proposal, "Let's have a baby." After Nora was done hooting she then asked, "Are you happy?" Instead of embracing her and saying, "I don't know if I want to be here," Kevin replied "...Yes?"  

Another stupid question. The question worth answering is still the one from the old DDS survey, the one whose results Nora subconsciously skewed with her despair: "Do you believe the Departed is in a better place?" 

Edited May 16, 2017 by Pallas

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, Pallas said:

For four of the last seven years, Kevin and their family life had been the Mylar vest that Nora strapped on, then said to the world, "Take your best shot."

Nice. Excellent post all around.

[RimaTheBirdGirl]

On a re-watch of the Great Nora/Kevin Fight, there was a glorious mess of contradictory explosions:

• Nora immediately snaps to Kevin's trauma, despite her own raging obsession with those Dutch physicists.  In an instant she's concerned, soft, kind.
• She just as immediately gets nasty, but only when she learns that Kevin-in-crisis had called Laurie, not her.   Regrettable, but human. 
• The weapon Nora uses to mock Kevin is Matt's new gospel.  Something she believes that they both find comic.  As savaging goes, a pretty mild topic.  Unless she's perceptive enough to know that Kevin doesn't find it funny at all.
•  That text holds every agonizing, maddening memory that Kevin cannot tell Nora, because she had so cruelly fled from his honesty, before.  So uh, using it to mock Kevin sets him off.  He rejects her accusations of abandonment and betrayal.  And in response, he is so cruel.
•  It was stunning to see Nora's disbelief at his cruelty.  (His candor?)  And her disbelief at his departure.
• But Kevin kept looking back, again and again.  He kept worrying about Nora in that burning room.  

And despite everything they said, they still never talked.

Edited May 17, 2017 by RimaTheBirdGirl

[rhodaus]

My one worry
Where are Tom and Jill
Kevin and Nora have impulsively gone off to Australia. Did they even think to tell the youngsters where they were going ?

[ShellSeeker]

On 5/16/2017 at 1:44 PM, RimaTheBirdGirl said:

And despite everything they said, they still never talked.

It occurred to me today that I think Kevin and Nora were ultimately doomed because they are both completely fucked up, but in opposite ways. Nora is fucked up because she lost her family in the Departure. Kevin is fucked up because he didn't.

Kevin told Holy Wayne that before the Departure, he'd already decided that he was going to leave his family. Then after it happened, he found Tom and Jill at their school, and when they saw him they were both overwhelmed with relief. I remember him telling Wayne how shitty he felt that they were so happy to see him, when he'd been planning to walk out on them, and would have, had it not been for the Departure. He felt unworthy, like nobody would be glad that he survived the Departure, especially not his kids, if they knew that he was really a shitheel that was intending to abandon his family.  I don't think he's ever really gotten past that, and that it's the reason for all of his self-destructive behavior. I think he keeps hoping that his next suicide attempt will be successful.

You've got Nora, who is willing to do anything under the sun to be with her children, and Kevin, who feels like he doesn't deserve the love of his children that are still here. No wonder their relationship imploded.

[aemom]

I've been watching the entire series on demand over the last month,  and it never fails to fascinate me.

I've been enjoying the musical choices and trying to figure out how they relate to the episode. I'm a huge fan of the band a-ha and play all their albums a lot at home, so when I heard the first few notes of Take On Me on the piano with the doctors, my husband and I both recognized it instantly and we discussed after the show how that song was relevant to the episode. The final line of the chorus is "I'll be gone in a day or two." That line works in so many ways with Kevin and Nora's relationship: Will you leave if I tell you what I've been seeing? Will you leave or try and stop me if I tell you what I'm planning to do?  What happens in a few days on the Departure anniversary?  Will you be gone?

Then there's the video to consider.  The comic book man is trying to break out of his world to be with the woman in the real world and she wants to be with him. They both spend time in each other's world, but if you watch their video for the song The Sun Always Shines On TV, which acts as a video sequel, you see that they in fact have to remain in their own worlds. This very much mirrors the world we all live in and whatever place the Departed went. There really is no crossing over and everyone is doomed to just pick up the pieces and move on as best they can.

I'm really looking forward to the next episode.

[Milburn Stone]

1 hour ago, AEMom said:

Then there's the video to consider.  The comic book man is trying to break out of his world to be with the woman in the real world and she wants to be with him. They both spend time in each other's world, but if you watch their video for the song The Sun Always Shines On TV, which acts as a video sequel, you see that they in fact have to remain in their own worlds. This very much mirrors the world we all live in and whatever place the Departed went. There really is no crossing over and everyone is doomed to just pick up the pieces and move on as best they can.

Your post stimulated a new thought for me, @AEMom. (Not necessarily a happy one, I'm afraid.) Which is that the two-world idea in Leftovers is a symbol of the fact that we all live in our own worlds, and truly crossing completely into the world of anyone else, even someone close to us, is near impossible.

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Your post stimulated a new thought for me, @AEMom. (Not necessarily a happy one, I'm afraid.) Which is that the two-world idea in Leftovers is a symbol of the fact that we all live in our own worlds, and truly crossing completely into the world of anyone else, even someone close to us, is near impossible.

And so it is. I wonder if the writers/creators were thinking of this consciously or subconsciously.