S05.E10: Darkroom

[MisterBluxom]

Wow. Umbelina. I'm shocked by your post. I never imagined you felt that way. But I can't fault your logic either. White Sheep certainly seems correct. Your post is pretty bleak but also seems correct.

So, I'd like to ask, "what do you think this means?" Do you think the show runners hate the KGB or the whole Russian political system? After all, it's really just a thinly veiled dictatorship.

I've always thought that when people live under a dictatorship, there is always a small faction who work to regain their freedom. Small in the beginning, that is, but it steadily grows in numbers until freedom is restored. But that has certainly not happened in Russia. They have a long-term dictatorships and I can't see any evidence of any active, growing resistance.

I'd like to know if anyone has any opinions on why this is so?  It might seem the Russian govt is so thoroughly ruthless and cruel that people just have no way to oppose them.  Is that a good explanation? Or is there more to it?

I'd like to ask if anyone has any opinions on how it is that the Russian government seems to have been able to suppress all active opposition for so long and how likely is it they will be able to continue with their dictatorship?  If we accept it is true that Stalin caused the murder of millions of people due to his own paranoia and that he was the cause behind the starvation of millions more with his "collectivization" of all the farms, then maybe this overwhelming cruelty just could be the true cause.

This has been going on for the entire duration of this show. IMHO, Umbelina's post makes it clear that it applies especially to this episode.

Edited May 13, 2017 by MissBluxom

[SlovakPrincess]

8 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

I'd like to know if anyone has any opinions on why this is so?  It might seem the Russian govt is so thoroughly ruthless and cruel that people just have no way to oppose them.  Is that a good explanation? Or is there more to it?

I'd like to ask if anyone has any opinions on how it is that the Russian government seems to have been able to suppress all active opposition for so long and how likely is it they will be able to continue with their dictatorship?  If we accept it is true that Stalin caused the murder of millions of people due to his own paranoia and that he was the cause behind the starvation of millions more with his "collectivization" of all the farms, then maybe this overwhelming cruelty just could be the true cause.

This has been going on for the entire duration of this show. IMHO, Umbelina's post makes it clear that it applies especially to this episode.

I'm no historian, and have only been to Russia as a tourist once, so take all of this with a grain of salt:

As we saw in this episode, different characters have different expectations for their life and different levels of knowledge about what is really going on with their government -- Alexei's wife and son miss Russia and don't seem to understand why going back might be a dangerous thing for Alexei.  Oleg would have toed the line forever and lived comfortably and reasonably happy if it weren't for his love for Nina and attempt to save her -- only then did he seem to really realize how cruel his government can be.  

Also, keep in mind that Russians really had not had much of a break between wars and famines: first the poor were getting ground down by the upper class and monarchy, then the revolution came and more war and you had the Communist government to not piss off, then the deprivations (like the siege of Leningrad where so many starved) and battles during WWII, then Stalin's purges and poverty for much of the population, as well as control over what you did and where you lived (some families just got assigned to share apartments with other families, you didn't have choice in your housing).  And then when the Soviet Union fell, violent organized crime got out of control and people were initially very relieved to have a strongman like Putin come in and address it.  

At a certain point, people just get exhausted.  Most people get used to being very careful and not drawing attention to themselves.  And it's not like there weren't opportunities in 80s U.S.S.R. for good food and drink (if you're lucky enough to have some means), and the kindness of friends and family in day-to-day life.  Relatively speaking, Martha would have a pretty ok life if she had friends, spoke the language, wasn't heartbroken and alone ... and hadn't lived her entire life expecting and experiencing something completely different.  

For the most part, most people are just going to be careful and not stick their neck out, especially after over a hundred years of having to be careful.   If they and their family can live out a peaceful life, why try to do the seemingly impossible and put a target on your own back?   

Edited May 13, 2017 by SlovakPrincess

[MisterBluxom]

1 hour ago, SlovakPrincess said:

I'm no historian, and have only been to Russia as a tourist once, so take all of this with a grain of salt:

As we saw in this episode, different characters have different expectations for their life and different levels of knowledge about what is really going on with their government -- Alexei's wife and son miss Russia and don't seem to understand why going back might be a dangerous thing for Alexei.  Oleg would have toed the line forever and lived comfortably and reasonably happy if it weren't for his love for Nina and attempt to save her -- only then did he seem to really realize how cruel his government can be.  

Also, keep in mind that Russians really had not had much of a break between wars and famines: first the poor were getting ground down by the upper class and monarchy, then the revolution came and more war and you had the Communist government to not piss off, then the deprivations (like the siege of Leningrad where so many starved) and battles during WWII, then Stalin's purges and poverty for much of the population, as well as control over what you did and where you lived (some families just got assigned to share apartments with other families, you didn't have choice in your housing).  And then when the Soviet Union fell, violent organized crime got out of control and people were initially very relieved to have a strongman like Putin come in and address it.  

At a certain point, people just get exhausted.  Most people get used to being very careful and not drawing attention to themselves.  And it's not like there weren't opportunities in 80s U.S.S.R. for good food and drink (if you're lucky enough to have some means), and the kindness of friends and family in day-to-day life.  Relatively speaking, Martha would have a pretty ok life if she had friends, spoke the language, wasn't heartbroken and alone ... and hadn't lived her entire life expecting and experiencing something completely different.  

For the most part, most people are just going to be careful and not stick their neck out, especially after over a hundred years of having to be careful.   If they and their family can live out a peaceful life, why try to do the seemingly impossible and put a target on your own back?   

Reading your post reminded me of several people I have met who came from The Philipines. They had all lived under Marcos and were all very friendly and very open unless it came to talking about their government in The Philipines. They would never say a single word about anything to do with the government. They would smile nicely and change the topic immediately and very deftly. That sent chills up and down my spine. I kept wondering what kind of monstrous things could any government have done to induce that kind of behavior. I thought about Nazi Germany and in a way, this behavior was really even more extreme than German's people. It has always remained a tremendous mystery to me. These people were out of that country and made it clear they were never going back. But yet, they still refused to discuss anything about the government back home.

Edited May 13, 2017 by MissBluxom

[White Sheep]

On 5/10/2017 at 9:06 PM, J-Man said:

This was addressed a bit upthread, but just to chime in as someone who used to live in the DC area-- it often seems like nearly everyone there is from somewhere else, and it's common for people to refer to the place they came from as "home," especially if they have plans to eventually return there.

The recapper commented on the length of the wedding ceremony and that fact that it transpired "in real time." I've only been to one Russian Orthodox wedding, and it lasted OVER AN HOUR and there was no sitting allowed the entire time (in fact, there were not even any seats in the church.)

I've been to many GREEK Orthodox weddings, and while the ceremonies are similar, attendees are permitted to sit during portions of the service.

No chairs??  Was this in the USA this wedding?  Do ALL Russian orthodox churches have no chairs?  

They really do make things stronger in Russia!  

[Dowel Jones]

1 hour ago, White Sheep said:

No chairs??  

Slightly more off topic, but only this one time:

I remember reading a short anecdote in Reader's Digest by a man who was relating to his grandmother the events of the Paris peace talks between the North Vietnamese and the US, concerning the Vietnam War.  The North Vietnamese continually made demand after demand, from the scope of the talks to the shape of the table, to the type of chairs to be used, etc.  This man's grandmother simply said, "If they got rid of the chairs completely, the talks would be over by now."

[pfk505]

OK, I guess I'll be the one to say it.

Holly Taylor may not be Meryl Streep, but she's a perfectly fine actress. According to IMDB she was born in 1997. Which means she was what, 14 or 15 when cast for the show? The amount of vitriol and negativity in this forum towards her is uncalled for, IMO, given that the writers have been doing her no favours for several years now. For whatever reason I'm going to be charitable and say that it is largely the director's job to guide actors, especially inexperienced ones, towards the portrayals they want to see. Paige is insufferable to be sure, but I don't blame the actor for this entirely. There is plenty of blame to go around.

I honestly don't think better acting would save the character or the plotlines she's involved in at this point. As much as I love the show, its problems are far more complex than one actor or one character. I hope that after S5 Paige "turns the corner" so to speak and decides to go all in, one way or another. Personally I'd like to see her go against her parents in some fashion, but that's just me.

[Helena Dax]

On 13/5/2017 at 1:43 AM, crgirl412 said:

It was supposed to be "strange."  It showed not only cracks in their armour but huge gashes and gaping holes in their atheism and entire belief system- especially for Elizabeth. 

 

I disagree. The priest wasn't their choice, he was their only option to get a wedding ceremony as themselves. Imo, it doesn't say anything about their belief system. (Although maybe it says something about the writers and their knowledge about religion in the Soviet Union).

[Clanstarling]

7 hours ago, pfk505 said:

OK, I guess I'll be the one to say it.

Holly Taylor may not be Meryl Streep, but she's a perfectly fine actress. According to IMDB she was born in 1997. Which means she was what, 14 or 15 when cast for the show? The amount of vitriol and negativity in this forum towards her is uncalled for, IMO, given that the writers have been doing her no favours for several years now. For whatever reason I'm going to be charitable and say that it is largely the director's job to guide actors, especially inexperienced ones, towards the portrayals they want to see. Paige is insufferable to be sure, but I don't blame the actor for this entirely. There is plenty of blame to go around.

I honestly don't think better acting would save the character or the plotlines she's involved in at this point. As much as I love the show, its problems are far more complex than one actor or one character. I hope that after S5 Paige "turns the corner" so to speak and decides to go all in, one way or another. Personally I'd like to see her go against her parents in some fashion, but that's just me.

The mister and I had this same discussion after he watched. He thinks she's doing a perfectly fine job with what she's given, and I think she's somewhat limited but certainly not bad, and as you say, the scripts and directors have a lot to do with how a character is performed. 

The director is the one who tells them how to play the character. Given it's tv, I'm sure its a discussion between the directors and showrunners on how each character should be played in a given episode.

A young actor should get a lot of guidance on how to play a role, and I'm sure she's performing they way they asked her to. She's not yet experienced enough to bring her own voice to the role, and even if she is, she may be getting shot down. It's hard to know.

Edited May 14, 2017 by Clanstarling

[crgirl412]

5 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

I disagree. The priest wasn't their choice, he was their only option to get a wedding ceremony as themselves. Imo, it doesn't say anything about their belief system. (Although maybe it says something about the writers and their knowledge about religion in the Soviet Union).

I think that only a few years earlier Elizabeth never would have willing participated in a religious ceremony. 

[crgirl412]

17 hours ago, White Sheep said:

No chairs??  Was this in the USA this wedding?  Do ALL Russian orthodox churches have no chairs?  

They really do make things stronger in Russia!  

I had a Russian girl in my class in nursing school who had her 2nd or 3rd baby over Christmas break and came back in January.  All of us American girls were amazed and knew we could not handle that!!  She was "strong like bull!" 

[sistermagpie]

8 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

I disagree. The priest wasn't their choice, he was their only option to get a wedding ceremony as themselves. Imo, it doesn't say anything about their belief system. (Although maybe it says something about the writers and their knowledge about religion in the Soviet Union).

I don't think it says that either. Their choice of this guy seems completely explained to me by the circumstances these characters are in.

4 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

A young actor should get a lot of guidance on how to play a role, and I'm sure she's performing they way they asked her to. She's not yet experienced enough to bring her own voice to the role, and even if she is, she may be getting shot down. It's hard to know.

I doubt she's being shot down by anybody. I don't think that young an actor has the kind of experience or understanding, imo, she would need to make the kind of complex choices the adult actors are making. Paige has actually evolved *a lot* on paper and on the show over the years. At least as much as Philip and Elizabeth. But the kind of evolution it's been I think would require a lot of maturity and understanding that even a smart teenager isn't going to have the experience to do. (Not that I don't think the writing is partly to blame as well.)

I remember someone once saying they happened to look at a script of Alison Wright's and it was amazing how specific her notes were throughout it. Every single beat she was laser focused on exactly what was going on with Martha internally. That's not the kind of thing you're going to be as able to do as a teenager who got cast as a 13-year-old as when you're a grown woman soon to be cast in a Pulitzer-winning pay on Broadway. And this isn't the kind of show where you can use a lot of tricks that can do the job for you.

Which still does, imo, mean that we wind up with a performance that's not helpful on screen, but as long as critics are no longer showering her with truly empty over-praise like they seemed to do a lot in S4 I'm okay.

2 hours ago, crgirl412 said:

I think that only a few years earlier Elizabeth never would have willing participated in a religious ceremony. 

She probably wouldn't have participated in a wedding ceremony of any kind as well!

[fib]

On 5/12/2017 at 8:40 PM, sistermagpie said:

They didn't have to change their opinion about God to be into it.

Agree completely - IN fact - didnt Philip apologize to Elizabeth for the God stuff?

[dubbel zout]

He did, and she smiled. She wasn't mad about it. She knew what Philip was trying to do.

[SlovakPrincess]

I'll chime in in defense of Holly Taylor.  I'm not sure who could make this stuff work at this point.  

When she's given something to actually do - that fateful tearful call to Pastor Tim, the breakup with Matthew - she does a fine job.  But she's mostly been in a holding pattern all season.  It's clear they're focusing more on Philip's worries for Paige than Paige's own feelings.  

What is the conflict at this point?  What does she think it means to be a Russian spy?  It's incredible that we haven't had one scene with her at school, or watching the news alone, or talking to a classmate or Matthew, where she is told the USSR is repressive and the enemy of the U.S.   Paige could either disagree and get angry on her parents' behalf  ... or wonder if her mom isn't just brain washed the next time Elizabeth talks about their mission in glowing terms.   Like, does Paige now completely believe Russia is great and the U.S. is trying to starve people?  

Who knows, cause we're wasting time on this Pastor Tim diary stuff.  She was already mad at Timmy for blabbing to his wife in the first place, so this being disillusioned by his diary isn't exactly new ground to cover.  

Edited May 14, 2017 by SlovakPrincess

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

I'll chime in in defense of Holly Taylor.  I'm not sure who could make this stuff work at this point.  

When she's given something to actually do - that fateful tearful call to Pastor Tim, the breakup with Matthew - she does a fine job.  But she's mostly been in a holding pattern all season.  It's clear they're focusing more on Philip's worries for Paige than Paige's own feelings.  

I don't actually think she's in more of a holding pattern than her parents or really any of the other characters this season. Learning her mother was raped, coming to the decision to cut herself off from Pastor Tim, trying to get over her fears, meeting some actual family of her parents--these things really aren't a holding pattern. The scene where she calls Pastor Tim or breaks up with Matthew I think are her best work, but they also give her similar things to play that she's good at and communicates exactly what's going on, and what's going on is a bit complex.

I'm not saying the writing's been dynamic and it's ruined by HT, but I think the performance is part of what makes it seem like a total holding pattern because this kind of development is the kind the show's usually going for. But maybe when you're working with a young actor you have to shift more work to the writing.

[Bannon]

2 hours ago, SlovakPrincess said:

I'll chime in in defense of Holly Taylor.  I'm not sure who could make this stuff work at this point.  

When she's given something to actually do - that fateful tearful call to Pastor Tim, the breakup with Matthew - she does a fine job.  But she's mostly been in a holding pattern all season.  It's clear they're focusing more on Philip's worries for Paige than Paige's own feelings.  

What is the conflict at this point?  What does she think it means to be a Russian spy?  It's incredible that we haven't had one scene with her at school, or watching the news alone, or talking to a classmate or Matthew, where she is told the USSR is repressive and the enemy of the U.S.   Paige could either disagree and get angry on her parents' behalf  ... or wonder if her mom isn't just brain washed the next time Elizabeth talks about their mission in glowing terms.   Like, does Paige now completely believe Russia is great and the U.S. is trying to starve people?  

Who knows, cause we're wasting time on this Pastor Tim diary stuff.  She was already mad at Timmy for blabbing to his wife in the first place, so this being disillusioned by his diary isn't exactly new ground to cover.  

I, too, don't want to be too hard on a young actor, because the writers have really executed this character poorly, almost as bad as Stan, which is really saying something. Throw in some pedestrian direction, as I noted above, and a teenage actor really is in an unfortunate situation.

[MisterBluxom]

For all those people in this thread who have posted negative remarks about Pastor Tim, I just saw an interesting news item that may contain an idea related to how to hasten his demise.

I must warn you all the following story contains a moderately gruesome concept (but it does not contain any gruesome pictures AFAICS) and so if you have a squeamish stomach, you may wish to avoid clicking on the following link. But if you have an active dislike for the pastor and his wife, you may enjoy this:

http://metro.co.uk/2017/05/15/pastor-trying-to-prove-how-jesus-walked-on-water-gets-eaten-by-crocodile-6637431/

If they convince the pastor to take a job in some South American country replete with jungles, they just might be able to engineer an attack like the one in the above link.

Edited May 15, 2017 by MissBluxom

[MisterBluxom]

On 2017-05-12 at 5:15 AM, millennium said:

Probably not.  Philip and Elizabeth are out there murdering people, body-snatching, wheat-thieving and what have you, meanwhile the FBI is holding seminars on how to get film out of a condom without destroying it.  

How did we win the Cold War again?

I think we won when they quit.  Didn't we?

Edited May 15, 2017 by MissBluxom

[MisterBluxom]

By the way, I forgot to express my enjoyment with this episode. I thought it was just one of the best.

Edited May 15, 2017 by MissBluxom

[qtpye]

On ‎5‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 7:21 PM, Moose135 said:

This.  And if you can get beyond the murder, assuming they felt it was justified to protect their homeland, the whole ceremony seemed strange to me.  They don't look to have any religious beliefs, having grown up in the Communist Soviet system, they weren't happy that Paige was getting involved in a church - giving her the "opiate of the masses" talk, yet they have a full-blown religious ceremony.  I understand using the priest they did - being KGB himself, there won't be any messy questions - but why not more of a "civil" ceremony, just exchanging simple vows, without the religious aspect?

On a shallow note, was I the only one reminded of the wedding of Latka and Simka on Taxi?

Quote

Bingo. My primary problem with Paige is that she's never been anything more than a plot device.   While not a main player it wasn't an issue, but the growing focus only magnifies how poorly written she is, and the limitation of child actors compounds the felony to an almost intolerable level. 

You know there was something that bothered me about this show, despite it's usual excellence, and I could never put my finger on it.  I think your post revealed something to me.  This show could be retitled Phillip and his women.  I mean we get such a in depth look to the way Phillip feels about everything, Elizabeth, Kimmie, Paige, Martha, etc., that his is really the central character.  The women are either well conceived or poorly written plot devices.

I remember watching the first episode and being so thrilled by the show.  I had a friend who was rolling her eyes so hard they might have popped out of her head.  I asked what she hated about it and she said that by having Phillip valiantly kill Elizabeth's rapist, they have already cast him as the knight in shining armor.  She said that if the show lasted longer then one season, he will always be painted as long suffering and sympathetic and most viewers will begin to hate or dislike Elizabeth intensely.  She said the show pretended to be about a couple, but it was really about him.  She pointed out it went along with the trope that rape is not about the female, but the male's reaction to the act.

I do not know if I agree with her, but some of her predictions have held out to come true.  We get some moments of Elizabeth's humanity, but mostly it is just "she is a hardliner and does things with no remorse, because she is devoted to the cause".  The destruction of the Korean family was her most well developed plotline and it really was an awesome arc for the character, but those are few and far between.

[sistermagpie]

38 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I remember watching the first episode and being so thrilled by the show.  I had a friend who was rolling her eyes so hard they might have popped out of her head.  I asked what she hated about it and she said that by having Phillip valiantly kill Elizabeth's rapist, they have already cast him as the knight in shining armor. 

But that's a totally superficial reading--which the person basically admitted by saying that if he killed her rapist there was no way the story could be about anything else than Philip being a knight in shining armor even though the actual rape story is NOT about Philip at all. They've revisited it more than once--just recently with Elizabeth and Paige--and it's all about Elizabeth.

It wasn't even about Philip in the pilot. It's about Elizabeth relationship with the Centre and how she feels she needs to sacrifice herself for them and deny how little they care about her or see that as correct. The fact that she was so struck by someone putting her first as a human has nothing to do with her wanting somebody to protect her. It's all about her issues with her mother and the Cause and the Centre. And the show created that whole relationship with Gregory to further explore that. 

40 minutes ago, qtpye said:

This show could be retitled Phillip and his women.  I mean we get such a in depth look to the way Phillip feels about everything, Elizabeth, Kimmie, Paige, Martha, etc., that his is really the central character.  The women are either well conceived or poorly written plot devices.

We easily get just as much of an in depth look at how Elizabeth feels about everything. In fact, I'd say seasons tend to be more structured around her evolution on whatever central issue.  Season one was driven mostly by Elizabeth's changing feelings about her marriage, season 2 about Elizabeth's changing feelings about children and the cause via Jared, season 3 about Elizabeth's changing feelings about wanting Paige recruited and wanting Paige to know her, season 4 about Elizabeth starting to value individuals via Young-Hee and Philip.

So no, not at all seeing any "Philip and his Women here." Kimmie's a minor character we're not going to get a good look at any more than we are Gorp Guy. Martha had a very clear emotional arc. And Paige and Elizabeth not only get a ton of focus but have a whole important arc with each other that's central to the show. It's been handled with much more detail that Philip/Paige or Philip/Henry. 

48 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I do not know if I agree with her, but some of her predictions have held out to come true.  We get some moments of Elizabeth's humanity, but mostly it is just "she is a hardliner and does things with no remorse, because she is devoted to the cause".  The destruction of the Korean family was her most well developed plotline and it really was an awesome arc for the character, but those are few and far between.

Elizabeth is a hardliner. That's her character. But she is changing. The Young Hee arc wasn't the first time she had a storyline like that--Elizabeth and Jared, Elizabeth/Philip/Gregory, Elizabeth and Paige, Elizabeth/Claudia and even her botched attempt to avenge Zhukov--all those were on the same level as that. This seems just like a grass is always greener thing. Elizabeth has had multiple monologues, dialogues and flashbacks that illuminates where she's coming from and what issues she's struggling with. 

In this ep I think we got just as many signs of where Elizabeth was at as Philip - she projected onto Paige about "seeing through" Pastor Tim, talked to Tuan about his weak emotional moment (something she probably would have seen differently before), was saddened at the idea of having to see Ben again and indulged in a secret wedding as herself. She's more than just a hardliner. 

[Erin9]

52 minutes ago, qtpye said:

You know there was something that bothered me about this show, despite it's usual excellence, and I could never put my finger on it.  I think your post revealed something to me.  This show could be retitled Phillip and his women.  I mean we get such a in depth look to the way Phillip feels about everything, Elizabeth, Kimmie, Paige, Martha, etc., that his is really the central character.  The women are either well conceived or poorly written plot devices.

I remember watching the first episode and being so thrilled by the show.  I had a friend who was rolling her eyes so hard they might have popped out of her head.  I asked what she hated about it and she said that by having Phillip valiantly kill Elizabeth's rapist, they have already cast him as the knight in shining armor.  She said that if the show lasted longer then one season, he will always be painted as long suffering and sympathetic and most viewers will begin to hate or dislike Elizabeth intensely.  She said the show pretended to be about a couple, but it was really about him.  She pointed out it went along with the trope that rape is not about the female, but the male's reaction to the act.

I do not know if I agree with her, but some of her predictions have held out to come true.  We get some moments of Elizabeth's humanity, but mostly it is just "she is a hardliner and does things with no remorse, because she is devoted to the cause".  The destruction of the Korean family was her most well developed plotline and it really was an awesome arc for the character, but those are few and far between.

 I agree with some of what you said, but some would argue this show is more about Elizabeth. I don't think so, but I've seen the argument. I think it is about both. We just see different aspects of the characters:  Philip's feelings, who Elizabeth is. 

We hear how Philip feels because Philip will talk about that, but in some ways we know Elizabeth better. Elizabeth doesn't dig into feelings the way Philip does, although she is slowly evolving there, but she's happy to explain herself to others. Philip is the opposite. He'll talk feelings, but tell less about himself. He's evolved a bit there, but I still feel there's a lot to learn about him....and not much time. For instance, we didn't even find out until this season that he had a brother! And that's still all we know. We have no idea what happened to his family. 

We know more about Elizabeth's parents and how that shaped her. She likes to explain herself, who she is- how she came to be who she is. Philip is much quieter when it comes to talking about himself, his family, his motivations, his memories, anything personal at all. You have to pay more attention to what he says and does because he doesn't spell it all out all the time like Elizabeth. 

The primary relationship in this show is E and P. But the next relationship has become Elizabeth and Paige. Tons of time, too much imo, is spent in it. I think it should be explored, but that seems to come at the detriment of other relationships we could see. 

[skippylou]

On 4/27/2017 at 1:48 PM, Umbelina said:

After last season when SO much happened, and relatively quickly, this is just so slooooooowwww.  It's all turned into sadness rather than danger or tension.  I get it, everyone is sad!  Must we be sad as well?

That said, there have been some good moments, and Oleg's scenes have tension and history and I think at least there, we will have some resolve.

I knew it was going to be sloooooooooooooooooowwww when the opening credits had an L warning but no V or N.  How many balls can they keep in the air before one of them hits the ground.  It seemed like this episode touched almost every character from the first four seasons who is still alive. 

 

PS I actually meant to post this in the Darkroom thread but put it here in error.

Edited May 15, 2017 by skippylou
wrong episode

[skippylou]

Where are they going with Martha?  She has now appeared in 2 or 3 episodes this season and we know that she isn't exactly thrilled about spending the rest of her life in socialist utopia.  She may have been gullible in the past, believing all the nonsense that her true love Clark told her,  but she isn't stupid.   I wouldn't be surprised if she attempts a surreptitious contact with the U.S. Embassy.   I think she knows enough to do it very, very carefully.  She has seen Clark and Elizabeth without disguise and even knows Clark's real fake name, Phillip.  She can also identify that one piece of jewellery that the FBI found in their search as coming from Clark.  Her repatriation back to America would give Stan enough ammo to sink P&E in short order.  I can't imagine where else her story line might go.

[TheBride]

I regret to inform my The Americans friends that I am officially bored with the plot. Something good better happen this week! And.....pulllleeeeeeze, get rid of Paige!!!!

[skippylou]

8 minutes ago, TheBride said:

I regret to inform my The Americans friends that I am officially bored with the plot. Something good better happen this week! And.....pulllleeeeeeze, get rid of Paige!!!!

The only thing that keeps me watching is the thought:  Something has to happen next week!   They have invested too much story line buildup in Paige.  I am afraid she is here to stay. 

Edited May 16, 2017 by skippylou
spelling

[albaniantv]

59 minutes ago, skippylou said:

he only thing that keeps me watching is the thought:  Something has to happen next week!   They have invested too much story line buildup in Paige.  I am afraid she is here to stay. 

Agree Paige has a lot of story line invested in her, which has made me increasingly nervous about how much she knows and how easily she could blow the show up at any minute. That Lady Macbeth cleaning in the middle of the night (out damned spot, out) routine is not a good sign. But it's too early for the show to explode, so looks like we are doomed to more and more wheat (is this a gluten free joke?) research, hazing of children, sad glimpses of silent Russians in yellow light, maybe lightened by a few more morbid flashbacks and scary est meetings. Will the Jennings book themselves a honeymoon? Will Paige find a spy boyfriend (remember all those interns Elizabeth used to train?) and forget about Pastor Tim and nighttime photo labs? I love that Henry is the only one who figured out his own exit ticket from SpyWorld-- hoping that works out. We'll need him safely stowed away, so when everything blows up, there's someone to answer questions. (Yes, officer, I was 6 when I looked out my window late at night and first saw my parents driving away in funny wigs and hats...)

[JFParnell]

12 hours ago, skippylou said:

Where are they going with Martha?  She has now appeared in 2 or 3 episodes this season and we know that she isn't exactly thrilled about spending the rest of her life in socialist utopia.

They probably don't know any better than you do -- they may even have forgotten about her :-)

[dubbel zout]

Martha's hardly been forgotten. We just saw her with Gabriel. Martha's story is pretty much over, I think.

Edited May 16, 2017 by dubbel zout

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, JFParnell said:

They probably don't know any better than you do -- they may even have forgotten about her :-)

 

3 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Martha's hardly been forgotten. We just saw her with Gabriel. Martha's story is pretty much over, I think.

I agree. Of course they might use her for some plot thing, but I think it's perfectly good to just have this as an epilogue for her and Gabriel. It means something that he tried to visit her and didn't get what he wanted out of it, imo.

[RedHawk]

On May 13, 2017 at 8:56 PM, White Sheep said:

No chairs??  Was this in the USA this wedding?  Do ALL Russian orthodox churches have no chairs?  

They really do make things stronger in Russia!  

There are chairs for the use of the elderly, pregnant women, others who may not be able to stand. Otherwise, the congregation stands.

Edited May 17, 2017 by RedHawk

[White Sheep]

20 hours ago, RedHawk said:

There are chairs for the use of the elderly, pregnant women, others who may not be able to stand. Otherwise, the congregation stands.

Tough group. That for sure. 

[MisterBluxom]

On 2017-05-16 at 9:48 AM, dubbel zout said:

Martha's hardly been forgotten. We just saw her with Gabriel. Martha's story is pretty much over, I think.

Trying to speak logically, (i.e. Logically speaking ... ), there really is nothing more left to happen to Martha or with Martha.

It might be nice to see how she's doing from time to time. But, what is there left for her to do that would in any way impact the current plot lines of any of the major characters? I'm thinking of P & E & Stan & anyone else working in the FBI as well as anyone else working in the Rezidentura. She might run into some of these people and say hello. But I can't imagine any serious way in which she could interact with them in a meaningful way that would have some serious impact on any current events.

What could possibly happen between Martha and any of these other characters? I just can't imagine anything at all.

I'm saying this because I believe her life in this show is pretty well over. Over and out. Sorry Martha. But your plot is all played out.

Edited May 22, 2017 by MissBluxom

[snarktini]

On 5/21/2017 at 11:33 PM, MissBluxom said:

Trying to speak logically, (i.e. Logically speaking ... ), there really is nothing more left to happen to Martha or with Martha.

It might be nice to see how she's doing from time to time. But, what is there left for her to do that would in any way impact the current plot lines of any of the major characters? I'm thinking of P & E & Stan & anyone else working in the FBI as well as anyone else working in the Rezidentura. She might run into some of these people and say hello. But I can't imagine any serious way in which she could interact with them in a meaningful way that would have some serious impact on any current events.

What could possibly happen between Martha and any of these other characters? I just can't imagine anything at all.

I'm saying this because I believe her life in this show is pretty well over. Over and out. Sorry Martha. But your plot is all played out.

When she left, I assumed her story was over and we wouldn't see her again. The plot was finished. And it was time.

But now that we have seen her, I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't one more payoff the writers have in mind. (What, I can't imagine. And I agree it's not likely to intersect with other characters.) Why bring her back if there isn't a purpose? 

[dubbel zout]

There was a question if she made it to Moscow, and what she was doing. Now we know.

[Roseanna]

On ‎10‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 6:22 AM, Erin9 said:

OMG. E and P got married for real. With their real names. In Russian. In an orthodox ceremony. 

How can they marry according to the Orthodox ceremony when they are not Orthodox, and not even baptized? And without witnesses?

Before all, in the Soviet Union, just like in France, only the civil ceremony made marriage legal.

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

How can they marry according to the Orthodox ceremony when they are not Orthodox, and not even baptized? And without witnesses?

Before all, in the Soviet Union, just like in France, only the civil ceremony made marriage legal.

I think because it was their only option - they had an Orthodox priest who was also a spy/source (?) who was willing, and there was no way they could have a Soviet civil union. I don't think Philip intended it to be a legal union, really, but a gesture of faith (in each other) and love. A statement until they could go home and have a real marriage. I also think both were surprised at how much it meant to them.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Clanstarling

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Roseanna said:

How can they marry according to the Orthodox ceremony when they are not Orthodox, and not even baptized? And without witnesses?

Before all, in the Soviet Union, just like in France, only the civil ceremony made marriage legal.

The marriage was about the two of them committing to each other, not the legality. Father Andre himself said that they'd need to file paperwork at home to be legally married in the USSR--presumably if necessary he'd give them whatever they needed for that. That's what he seemed to be telling them. In the US they already have a wedding certificate etc. As far as they were concerned everything religious was just decorative flourish. They vowed to take each other as husband and wife in a ceremony so that, to them, was the marriage. Sort of foreshadowed back in The Vow when Elizabeth mentioned how ceremonies and vows carried weight in themselves, enough that she was moved by the Clark/Martha wedding, also a religious one.

[Roseanna]

On ‎11‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 7:09 AM, Bretton said:

In my former Evangelical experience, plenty of pastoral couples (husband and wife) considered it normal (even expected) to share all with each other - including what was said to one or the other by a parishioner. In fact, this was considered part of honoring the oneness of marriage. The two are one -- including holding secrets, whosever they are.

Isn't that against the law?

And how can anybody trust such people? 

[Roseanna]

On ‎11‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 3:41 PM, Erin9 said:

One of the interesting about PT's diary is his whining about what the big secret has done to Paige when telling her was something HE pushed. He pushed Paige to push for the truth. He pushed Philip saying she should be treated like a grown up. Shows how much he knew. Now he doesn't like it. 

I'm at the point where I want Paige to get a grip. Her life could be way worse. I think her own parents had a much more difficult upbringing. And the thing is: Her parents aren't normal. They never will be no matter what happens. It is what it is. They made life choices at her age that they all have to live with now. It wasn't so much done TO her as much as it is that she is affected by those long ago choices. So, she needs to come to terms with it. Her parents can go to prison, die, return to Moscow, go on the run or they can keep doing what they're doing. But they can't be normal. It's too late. There is only so much P and E can actually do for her now. 

And a different kid, like Henry, has handled everything differently. Truth is, Henry's mostly fine for now. The major impact in his life is the attention Paige gets and that his parents work a lot. But he's not curious or snooping. He's not dying to know what his parents are really up to.  He's a totally different kid. I don't see how boarding school helps him in terms of the secret really. That was Paige projecting herself onto Henry imo. 

I really liked Philip's advice to Paige. He's right:  you can change. She's not doomed to stay the same forever.  And PT doesn't know everything about Paige. He can't. No one can really. I liked that he told her something solid. It wasn't a platitude. What Paige does with it is up to her though. 

 

On ‎11‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 6:30 PM, sistermagpie said:

Not surprising at all--but Paige herself certainly considered it a betrayal. She never agreed to confide anything in the guy's wife and probably felt that Pastor Tim had offered himself to her as a friend more than in the official capacity as Minister which meant telling his wife.

Probably, yes. The Centre was already pressuring them to tell her. But the way it wound up happening was down to Paige saying if they kept lying to her they didn't love her.

I'm not sure that was their intention all along. Jared seemed to be their first attempt and they didn't have families of Illegals before that as examples. They may genuinely have considered the kids simply cover until somebody realized they could be used. As Philip has said, things always change.

It's interesting they haven't even brought up the fact that Henry would obviously be tapped too. So far he's living the life Philip and Elizabeth originally planned for the kids, that he'd just be clueless and enter the American life of his choosing.

This is what I keep coming back to. It's like when Paige told Pastor Tim and had to work him. People disagreed on who to blame the most for that, but really it didn't matter. Once she did it, there was a danger and if she didn't want her life destroyed she had to work them. There's nobody to complain to that all this is unfair. It was unfair that Philip had to eat moldy bread full of sawdust as a child and that Elizabeth grew up in a city reduced to rubble. But that was their situation and life isn't fair. As Philip said when Paige asked him if he liked living in Tobolsk "We didn't think like that. It wasn't about what you liked."

Yes, I think she was indulging a bit in her angst using Henry to point out how terrible it was to be her with her secret and her isolation and deep sorrows. Someone elsewhere compared what she was saying to the abused kid taking the abuse to protect the younger kid but Henry can just as easily not know the secret at home as at school, and Paige suffering isn't the price for keeping him in the dark. 

Pastor Tim, of course, was making up his own dramatic tragedy with himself as the would-be hero. Lots of people casting other people in bit parts of their own personal hero stories here!

Yeah, again I agree. Nothing Pastor Tim said defines the person she has to grow up to be, nor does her being burdened with this secret. Paige has, for a while now, been really embracing this idea that she's now "different" (as she said in this ep) or doomed because of her situation. (Even though some of the things that actually make things worse for her is that she continues to be *attracted* to the whole thing, always wanting to work herself deeper in instead of containing things or disengaging or minimizing the effect.) 

I mean, look at so many other characters on the show who are in similar boats. The Burov family especially. Mom did what she had to do in the camps. She came back a different person, but she came back. 

Yes, but often we talk about what they've done to Paige in terms of damage, and yes, that's exactly what it is. But the thing with damage is that it's permanent. If you have a wobbly table it's not going to get solid when you put plates on it because the plates need to stay steady. It's damaged.

That's Philip and Elizabeth. They're not normal, they made choices they're stuck with, the choices changed them. Even before those choices they grew up in a very different environment that gave them a wildly different view of how to live than Paige has. There was no point where they were going to be able to wake up and suddenly be the comfortable American parents they were pretending to be and start looking at life like Pastor Tim does. They love their daughter and obviously have a lot of instincts that are right with her, but this is still who they are. 

Is there truth in what Pastor Tim said? Of course! If there wasn't nobody would much react to it, including Paige. He's far from the first time to call them monsters (Philip in particular has been called that to his face). But him venting in his diary about it isn't particularly helping anybody either, except himself. (Not that I'm saying he's wrong for doing it--he didn't write that for Paige to read and when you read somebody else's diary you take your chances that you're going to read something you don't like.) 

It's not bad for any of them to consider the truth of what he's saying--but it's also probably not good for them, especially Paige, to embrace the idea that she's the biggest victim and her parents are simply monsters. Paige herself must know that's not completely true--I mean, they're not monsters, and she absolutely has the ability to know the difference between right and wrong. Not only does Pastor Tim not know everything about Paige (his formative experience with her was all about her agreeing with everything he said and adjusting all her beliefs to agree with him, after all--he has no idea how to be in conflict with her while still having a relationship), but he doesn't know everything about her parents. All he sees is the facade they put on beside the knowledge that they lied to their kid.

I think another thing that attracts Paige to her parents is that they've sacrificed more and this is what tends to lead to bad things. Pastor Tim's life has been pretty comfortable. He helps people on his own terms, roughs it when he chooses and feels good about it. Getting lost in the desert was a wake-up call for him and his wife because before that neither had ever really felt real fear. Paige is I think ambivalent about many things that her parents have done, but I think she gets that Pastor Tim isn't really prepared to deal reality on the level they deal with them.

We can roll our eyes at Philip and Elizabeth talking about the wheat plot as if they foiled anything (they didn't lie about getting the good wheat strain to Russia, which seems to be something they genuinely do feel good about), but it's not like they've never done anything good, even if it was attacked to something terrible. They foiled a pretty nasty pro-Apartheid terrorist plot, for instance.

Good point, Erin and Sistermagie.

I must admit that I have no empathy left towards Paige. There has been too many scenes where she is says how miserable she is because of her parents. I am just tired of her complaints.   

 

On ‎12‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 4:27 AM, MissBluxom said:

I must admit to being curious what people think Pastor Dim should tell Paige given that he truly feels she will be messed up for life.

I'd like to ask people here who are willing to respond, if you were a pastor and you honestly believed that Paige is FFL (Failed Forever in her Life), and she started a conversation with you and asked you what you thought of her future, what would you tell her?

Would you do what PD did and lie to her in order to make her feel better about herself? Or would you tell her the truth and hope that she may figure out a way to go forward in her life - even though you can't figure out any way for her to go forward in her life and succeed?

That is the question. As a pastor, even if you thought someone was beyond help and beyond redemption and that it was hopeless for them. Hopeless they could ever find a way to a happy life or a successful life, what would you tell them? Would it be better to lie to them and try to make them feel good? Or would it be better for you to tell them the truth? As a pastor, how can you look someone in the eye and tell them, "I'm sorry Paige. But the truth is that I just think it's impossible for you to ever find any happiness in your life. You are just beyond my help."

How can PD resolve his conversation with Paige and with his God? Doesn't he have a duty to Paige (and to his religion and to God) to help Paige find a way to salvation? Seems like an impossible kind of position. Or maybe PD is just not bright enough to figure this out?

P.S. "FFL" is a fairly well-known Internet abbreviation that means something similar to "Failed Forever in Life". But it's more common meaning is quite vulgar and uses curse words and I didn't feel like it would be appropriate to define its traditional meaning in case any young people of Paige's age were reading.

I don't think anybody has a right to say to another that he/she is FFL because that is just such that could really make it happen.  And a pastor should never even believe in such things. Isn't anything possible to God?

 

On ‎12‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 6:58 PM, sistermagpie said:

 

I don't think he is considered a bad guy for it. Even P&E didn't really consider him a bad guy for it. Philip was just annoyed that he left the diary where Paige could find it and read it, and even there he told Paige she shouldn't read it. (And Elizabeth just saw it as an extension of the kind of busybody judging she sees him doing outside the diary.)

But this second question actually is kind of interesting because he really didn't have only those two choices. I think from Paige's pov he was supposed to be honest and he clearly wasn't, and that made her feel like he was really writing her off. 

I mean, he has no way of knowing whether she has a chance for happiness in her life--in fact, a lot of what he was saying wasn't so much that she couldn't be happy but that she was damned. That is, she'd lost the ability to understand truth or to know right from wrong. A person like that could be happy, they would just be bad. 

And it does kind of underline his limitations as a pastor. When Paige wandered into his church as a girl who just thought her parents didn't get her ordinary problems and were maybe having affairs he had all the answers. Their relationship was mostly him talking and her nodding eagerly as she listened to agreed with him. I think if Paige had kept that kind of relationship, like the way it was when she'd first told him and it was still her and Pastor Tim vs. her parents he probably would have seen lots of potential for her to be a good person. 

I mean, he himself is keeping the Jennings secret and doesn't seem to feel like he's endangered his soul by doing it. Can Paige just not do that because she actually loves them? Makes me wonder if he's really any help to those sexual abuse victims he's seen.

But "dysfunctional" is kind of a catch-all word that's almost meaningless. Paige is upset because of the situation she's in, not because her parents are incapable of a relationship with her. If they're simply bad because they're imparting their own beliefs to her then that gets a little complicated. Pastor Tim's daughter will be brought up in his belief system even more aggressively. Anybody working in intelligence will eventually give their children the idea that they think espionage is a valid job choice. I think there's a difference between a family being in a stressful situation (even if it's one created by the parents) and families who undermine and tear each other down when they interact. I think the Jennings often are a functional family and do have very similar impulses towards their kids that Pastor Tim has towards his daughter.

 

That, If Pastor Tim really believes what he writes, he should go FBI in order to free Paige from her parents. As it is, he is also responsible for her situation.

He has only plattitudes to offer (how faith is a solution to all problems, when it's obvious that it doesn't help Paige at all) and then he writes in his diary things that show that he doesn't believe in his words at all. In fact, he is now lying to Paige more than her parents do. They lie about particular things, he lies about how he sees her.   

[Roseanna]

There is a passage in The unbearable lightness of being by Milan Kundera how "living in truth" can be seen differently.

The negative defination of "living in truth" means that one doesn't lie or hide anything. So when Franz who is married begins an affair with Sabina and tells his wife that he is doing something else when he is in fact with her, he is living in a lie.  And because he has never done such things before, he likes to lie and hide for once, at least for awhile.

Sabrina, who has lived in a Communist state, thinks on the contrary that one is "living in truth" and doesn't lie to oneself or others only when there is no audience. Once somebody obeserves our actions, we adapt our behaviour conciously or against our will to the observation.  To Sabrina, one lives in a lie when one has an audience, when one thinks about the audience. Sabrina despises literature where the author conceals one's own delicate matters and those of one's friends. When one loses the privacy of one's life, one loses all.   

On the contrary, Franz is sure that dividing one's life in private and public is the beginning of the lie, that one's private life is different thant one's pubic life. He wants to live in a "glass house" where there is nothing secret, to where everyone can see all.

So Franz tells "the truth" to his wife. But Sabrina is not at all happy that they can now meet publicly but thinks that Franz has violently destroyed the door of her private life. Therefore she ends their affair.

Although Kundera's story doesn't help to understand P&E, I think it's quite damning to Pastor Tim. He has used his religion and profession to find out Paige and her parents' secret - and as it now seems, not to help her at all, but because he somehow enjoys the power to know about people's private life in order to secretly condemn them to be FFL.   

[Roseanna]

On ‎13‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 3:40 AM, sistermagpie said:

A wedding is a wedding. Philip met somebody who officiates at weddings as part of his job so he had a ceremony he knew how to do. Plus the guy was a spy and Russian so he could do it for their real selves. He's not going to ask the guy to write up a new secular version and he and Elizabeth aren't exactly the types to want to make up a ceremony for themselves. Makes perfect sense to me they'd prefer an official wedding ritual of some kind.

I'd bet weddings might be the religious ceremony mot often performed on non-religious or even anti-religious people for various reasons. There's very little in that ceremony where the symbolism doesn't relate to the joining of the two people. There's an exchange of rings, the crowns that symbolize them being married, formally asking if they take the other person (even if they're referred to as a servant of God!) as their spouse, stepping onto a new path together and chanting in Church Slavonic. Probably even religious people are more aware of that at their wedding than specific allusions to the Bible etc. Plus the fact that it's in Russian with a Russian style of things is probably just as meaningful to them in their situation as God would be to some other people. 

They're not threatened by his Russian Orthodox faith the way they (or mostly Elizabeth) was threatened by Pastor Tim's influence over their daughter.

I don't think it's showing gashes in their atheism. They believe in their marriage and they believe in each other. They didn't have to change their opinion about God to be into it. Atheists can be moved by rituals like this for different reasons. Many many atheists have no doubt cried over the beauty of their church weddings! Philip and Elizabeth are truly people of faith, after all. It's central to their lives.

I don't understand that at all. If they wanted to make promises after living together almost 20 years, they could have made it to themselves, whitout any priest or ceremony,    

Nor do I understand the present practice that a couple that has lived together for years and has got children, arrange big weddings. If they just want to have a big party, fine! But sometimes they tell others that only now they are truly committed - as if having children together makes a much stronger and enduring bond as one can easily divorce from one's spouse but he/she is still the other parent of one's child.

I must stress that I am not at all against the marriage. But I see the marriage as a legal agreement about f.ex. the property in case of divorce or death. If one doesn't marry, one must sign many documents in order to guarantee the same rights that the marriage gives automatically according to the law.    

[Roseanna]

Continueing about the wedding: I must admit that it must have a very strong meaning in the context of the show. Obviously, arranging the formal ceremony Philip gave Elizabeth the message that he will stick to her, no matter what. But what was the message Elizabeth gave to him? Did saying that she had not promised herself to another (man) mean also anything else, i.e. the Cause?

Yet, although the ceremony obviously strengthened their bond even further, it doesn't guarantee what kind of choices they make in crisis where people act and make decisions by instinct.     

[Roseanna]

On ‎10‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 6:25 PM, MissBluxom said:

It just might be possible (although very unlikely) that the stuff in Moscow may be a setup for us for a big and important surprise. There are any number of surprises that could happen.

1) Oleg's father could be guilty of participating in some scam with the food. It just might be him the KGB is investigating and not Oleg.  It could have been arranged for Oleg to join the KGB - not because someone wanted him to work for them - but because someone figured it would be a better way to keep a close eye on him in order to bust his father.

2) Even more likely ... Oleg's mother could be carrying a grudge and/or involved in some plot with some other people who have been imprisoned and have remained in prison in the past to "stick it to the Commie" (similar to "stick it to the man") and they may be planning to do something to get even with the bastards who imprisoned them and (probably) tortured them as well. The more I think of it, the more likely this may be a real possibility (going after his mother instead of his father). Why?

If I was Oleg's mother and I had been imprisoned and tortured by a bunch of Commie creeps, I would never forget and I would never forgive. What about you? Would you ever forgive? Would you ever come around to the POV that they were right and you were wrong? Would you ever decide that you had learned your lesson and the time was now right for you to kiss their (collective) asses?  Well ... I dunno ... but if it was me, I think the answer would be ... "NYET!!!" and ... Fuck 'em! as well.   I would be livid as well!  Livid as Hell! I would just be out of my mind angry!  I would be willing to give up my life just to get even with those creeps.

I wonder if anyone here has any specific ideas about any of the following questions:

1) What is it that Oleg's mother could have done during or after WW2 to get herself imprisoned and tortured?  How would Oleg's father have fit in? (He probably could not have participated if he then became a Transportation Minister. Or could he?)

2) Would she have deserved prison and/or torture for any of the possible reasons above?

3) What kind of plot could she have been secretly working on during all the years after the war and with whom would she be working and how much damage could they possibly do to the sitting Russian Government?

4) If she gets caught (which almost certainly will happen), what would it mean for Oleg and his dad? And, who else from Oleg's past would find out about this and how would it impact Philip and Elizabeth?

5) If I was Oleg's mom, I would have carried around a real serious plot to get even with the bastard Commies for messing up my life and my marriage and the death of my younger son would be a real big problem. I would want vengence with t a capital "V". How about you?

Anyway, I am not through my questions. Not by any means. But I don't know where to go from here. I'd love to hear from you. Do you think there might possibly be anything to my ruminations? Or am I just disappointed by a lack of action this season and clutching at straws? Am I just trying to generate some action - or engaging in some revenge fantasy?  I truly would love to know.

I think that your suggestions are based on too much fantasy. So far, plots haven't been so complicated. There is no reason why KGB should hide if their real target is Oleg's dad.

I believe that the most obvious plot is most likely: Oleg's "treason" gave FBI and CIA power to blackmail him.

As for KGB, I just invented, how and why they started to suspect Oleg - maybe Tatina began to suspect why her plan to get the lassa virsus from William went astray, and realized that the only person who knew about it and could warn FBI was Oleg who had regular meetings with Stan. As Oleg was Tatiana's lover, that would make his betrayal of her (and her precious career!) even more hard to bear.  (That would also explain why we suddenly saw Tatiana again.)

Of course Oleg's mother hadn't have to "do" anything in order to get herself to the camp - if there was some problem in her workplace, it had to be due sabotge, and someone must have been found to take blame for it. And as I said before, Oleg father was too young to have an influential position, so he most likely had no part it i.

How you and I would have reacted to have been years in the camp although we were innocent, has nothing to do how the Soviet people reacted. A Communist accepted that "mistakes were made".  Others would anyway keep their mouth shut. 

Edited October 17, 2017 by Roseanna
A sentence with italics added

[Roseanna]

On ‎10‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 6:41 AM, sistermagpie said:

I loved the scene with Alexei where he talked about missing the human connections in Russia. People sometimes seem surprised when every Russian character doesn't immediately want to live in the US and this is partly why! 

I wondered if anybody hadn't noticed this scene which made Alexei much more sympathic as he is no more all about politics.

One's country is so much more than its political system. Now that Alexei has (hopefully) admitted that there are things he loved and now longs for, he is lucky to have his family with him and they can talk about their memories in their own language.

I guess it may have been partly that why his wife said that he really tries which in turn made her plan to stop her affair.    

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Sabrina, who has lived in a Communist state, thinks on the contrary that one is "living in truth" and doesn't lie to oneself or others only when there is no audience. Once somebody obeserves our actions, we adapt our behaviour conciously or against our will to the observation.  To Sabrina, one lives in a lie when one has an audience, when one thinks about the audience. Sabrina despises literature where the author conceals one's own delicate matters and those of one's friends. When one loses the privacy of one's life, one loses all.   

 

This is really fascinating because in an earlier season Paige makes a speech about how P&E, as her parents, have the power to tell her what to do, but they can't tell her what to think. She's basically hinting at the same idea, that she will conform to the behavior that's expected of her, but that's not going to change who she is inside. She thinks her parents don't understand this, but of course they do. Perhaps better than she does, having not grown up being told that everything's okay. 

Paige's original ideas about not being “a liar” were somewhat understandable given that she thought her parents were hiding something from her, but they were really childish. As her mother has pointed out more than once, adults (and really children too) simply aren’t open about everything. There may be some things that they thing they should be able to be open about because of what staying silent means, but nobody’s getting through their life just not lying about anything or keeping secrets. Paige herself wanted to tell her parents about the church group because part of the appeal of it was that it bothered her parents, but she didn’t tell them everything about it and she lied about other things that she wanted to keep secret. I don’t think it’s uncommon for people who claim to be honest to the world to lie to themselves.

And Pastor Tim, of course, listens to people talk to him and is expected to keep secrets. His wanting to be honest with his wife really isn’t particularly honest in that sense.

 

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I don't understand that at all. If they wanted to make promises after living together almost 20 years, they could have made it to themselves, whitout any priest or ceremony,    

 

Well, yes but that question applies to anybody. Why should anyone have a wedding rather than just get the legal documents if they’re not religious? They have weddings because ceremonies mean things to people. I think Philip and Elizabeth are definitely more the type of people for whom having a formal ceremony with some outside figure means more than the two of them writing their own vows and saying them in the laundry room. Lots of people are like that. There are a lot of atheists or agnostics or people who are only nominally religious who go to a church for weddings and it's very meaningful for them. Sometimes it's because their families prefer a church wedding, sometimes because they like that part of it regardless of believing in God. The fact they had a reason to do it in Russian under their real names would probably make it even more powerful to them. Of course they could have said those same vows themselves in Russian at home, but they definitely seem more like the types to prefer a formal, standard incantation with a witness. There was no reason for Nina to have to read out her vow in front of Arkady back in S1 either, but it meant something to them.

Since Philip and Elizabeth were essentially given a legal marriage as a cover, I would think the spiritual ceremony would mean even more to them.

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

But what was the message Elizabeth gave to him? Did saying that she had not promised herself to another (man) mean also anything else, i.e. the Cause?

Good question. I think the fact that Elizabeth would make an actual vow to be Philip's wife is very important because Elizabeth takes vows very seriously. She probably wouldn't consider the Centre another man in this case, but we can see that in some ways it is. She now has two vows she's made--one for duty and one for love--and they're both things she's admitted to, unlike back in s1 when she was still sometimes hiding behind the idea that the marriage was a cover. We don't know which one she'd choose in a crisis.

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I guess it may have been partly that why his wife said that he really tries which in turn made her plan to stop her affair.    

I thought that was related too. Before he just stuck to this political line as if that was all that mattered and he was trashing a life that meant something to them. That would have made it really hard for his wife to feel connected to him at all, imo. It's a bit like Elizabeth, in a way. She had to show some vulnerability and drop the ideology to really connect with people.

[Roseanna]

12 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Sabrina despises literature where the author conceals one's own delicate matters and those of one's friends. When one loses the privacy of one's life, one loses all.   

I made an error, sorry: of course Sabrina despises literature where the author reveals one's own delicate matters and those of one's friends. 

[SusanSunflower]

Whatever Pastor Tim thinks/thought about Paige and her situation, it mostly came from listening to Paige drama-queening to him -- and that P&E should realize this and ask her about it.  

If you've ever been in the unenviable position of listening to a friend vent about a boy/girl friend they either just dumped or was dumped by -- only to find they have reconciled a week or two later -- many things things can be said passionately only to be disavowed when things cool down. 

The writing is usually better that this ... and it's important because as a pastor, PT may be mandatory reporter ... which should scare everyone when he's equating what was done to Paige with child sexual abuse. ... and if he's seen child sexual abuse and how it destroys families (even when the perpetrator is not a family member), it's a stupid equivalence ... 

It used to be fairly common practice (until I think the 1960's) to not tell children they had been adopted ... some children on learning the truth were deeply shaken, angry and wounded (part of why the practice was stopped) ... I have no idea the incidence of "permanent damage" to ability to trust forever and ever ... 

Such things are "reality altering" but -- as with so many things in life -- some people accept the "new reality" and others take much longer and are much angrier, sadder and grudge holding... refusing to get over anything ever ... 

Shouldn't Paige (the brainiac) be jealous of Henry?  I would be, in fact, I am for her.  While I understand Phillip wanting his son at home for his last teenaged years before college, a scholarship to a top-flight school should thrill him (and yet, he didn't seem even interested in this cost-free ultra-cool opportunity for Henry) ... of course, the wheels were turning in Elizabeth's head but they weren't about Henry's well-being either. 

[SusanSunflower]

Dinner with Oleg's parents ... I think his father was trying to tell Oleg that he was being unspeakably rude and anti-social (and childish) and he needed -- particularly for his mother's sake -- to grow up and snap out of it ... and he did. 

I just read the recap and realized that they may have read Phillip's insecurity/jealously wrt the studly and furry agricultural man-god Ben (who is also tall and teaching an oh-so-appreciative Elizabeth Tai-Chi.   Elizabeth has had handsome lovers/assignations before but Ben could be a real contender ... unlike Phillip's passive-aggressive loser "girlfriend" -- both of them act like they'd rather be home alone reading a book ... (too lazy to look up her name). 

[sistermagpie]

17 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

Whatever Pastor Tim thinks/thought about Paige and her situation, it mostly came from listening to Paige drama-queening to him -- and that P&E should realize this and ask her about it.  

 

I don't think Paige has drama queened to him much for a long time. When she was really complaining it was before she knew the secret and was complaining about her parents not treating her like a grown up. She seemed to clam up a lot after she told him the actual secret. The stuff in his diary doesn't sound like he's reacting to stuff Paige is saying or doing. It could just be him musing about how terrible what they did is--and maybe think that Paige seeming okay with it now is a bad sign. He might want her to do more drama queening, really.

 

17 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

Shouldn't Paige (the brainiac) be jealous of Henry?  I would be, in fact, I am for her.  While I understand Phillip wanting his son at home for his last teenaged years before college, a scholarship to a top-flight school should thrill him (and yet, he didn't seem even interested in this cost-free ultra-cool opportunity for Henry) ... of course, the wheels were turning in Elizabeth's head but they weren't about Henry's well-being either. 

Lots of people wouldn't be thrilled with it. Philip had that opportunity himself and probably thinks about stuff he missed with it. It's not like they're in a bad school system. He wouldn't be the first person who grew up poor didn't want their kids to go to fancy prep schools like that. If Paige wanted to try for a scholarship at some boarding school nothing was stopping her from doing it or from asking about it. She had no interest in that. She wanted to know what was up with her parents--and I think in her way she likes it that way. In some ways I'm sure she envies Henry's careful life, but in other ways she's an insider in the family and he's not. She's in on the real stuff.

 

17 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

I just read the recap and realized that they may have read Phillip's insecurity/jealously wrt the studly and furry agricultural man-god Ben (who is also tall and teaching an oh-so-appreciative Elizabeth Tai-Chi.   Elizabeth has had handsome lovers/assignations before but Ben could be a real contender ... unlike Phillip's passive-aggressive loser "girlfriend" -- both of them act like they'd rather be home alone reading a book ... (too lazy to look up her name). 

I honestly don't see Philip as jealous at all of this guy. It does seem like a change for him to actually want to talk through their relationships with other people, but I don't think that's about jealousy. It's more, imo, a sign of how their lives are becoming more whole. They don't just see a wall between what they do in fake relationships and what they do with each other. I guess it just seems silly to me to think of this guy as a real contender for Elizabeth just because he shares her desire to change the world instead of being part of a plot to starve the USSR.