S04.E20: Farewell, Cruel World

[TVSpectator]

7 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

It all comes down to whether the writers think AoS is getting another season. 

I can legitimately see Mack and Hope getting a happing ending BUT in the Framework.  

I can see Fitz not being able to live with what he did in the Framework but still being conflicted by his love for both Aida and Jemma and ultimately taking a bullet meant for one or both of them.

Of course both only work if the show is ending.  Well I would buy the Mack and Hope ending regardless but that is just me. 

 

 

 

Didn't the show already wrap up filming which means we are stuck with whatever ending that the Whedons wrote for this season?

 

As with what will happen next season, I have heard that Jed Whedon talking about that he [b}is[/b] planning on a 5th Season but that was like way back in March and/or February. Which is really no indication if this show is going to be renewed or canceled. I figure that Marvel TV will also factor in here, although, I have heard that Agent Carter's cancellation was solely on ABC and that Jeff Loeb was upset that it did get canceled, but that ABC said that the decision was purely base on the ratings of the show and nothing more. 

Edited May 4, 2017 by TVSpectator

[Terrafamilia]

I can imagine Gen. Talbot marching into the framework, tossing Mack out and when in the real world Mack complains, "Why? I was happy in there," he responds, "You're still on the clock and I don't pay you to wallow in fantasy land. Now get back to work."

[marceline]

23 hours ago, Enigma X said:

I know this was for dramatic purposes, but why didn't Daisy lie and say Hope was alive and waiting on the other side?

Imagine what it would be like for Daisy to lie to Mack then have him go through the portal expecting to see his little girl only to remember her death all over again. He'd hate her for the rest of his life.

[Tiger]

1 hour ago, TVSpectator said:

Didn't the show already wrap up filming which means we are stuck with whatever ending that the Whedons wrote for this season?

 

As with what will happen next season, I have heard that Jed Whedon talking about that he [b}is[/b] planning on a 5th Season but that was like way back in March and/or February. Which is really no indication if this show is going to be renewed or canceled. I figure that Marvel TV will also factor in here, although, I have heard that Agent Carter's cancellation was solely on ABC and that Jeff Loeb was upset that it did get canceled, but that ABC said that the decision was purely base on the ratings of the show and nothing more. 

ABC also wanted Atwell in a female-led procedural, which they thought would be a winning ticket.  Obviously that was a huge failure.

[TVSpectator]

22 hours ago, Tiger said:

ABC also wanted Atwell in a female-led procedural, which they thought would be a winning ticket.  Obviously that was a huge failure.

No, I thought that procedural was Atwell's decision because she saw the writing on the wall, and she auditioned for the role after she was done filming for Agent Carter and that Agent Carter was done airing its episodes. I mean ABC has no problem hiring actors they like that were on other shows that were canceled. Mallory Jenson got the role of AIDA once Galavant was canceled and Atwell even said that she was going to do both if Agent Carter was going to be renewed. It was ABC (and I think it was the current head) that came out and said that the ratings were the sole reason for the cancellation. Overall, it seemed to have nothing to do with her getting the lead role in Conviction. 

Edited May 5, 2017 by TVSpectator

[Raja]

4 hours ago, blackwing said:

Unfortunately, most reports I've seen in the media label AoS as a bubble show and say the ratings have been not so good.  However, with "Inhumans" coming, maybe ABC will keep AoS around to have more tie-ins?

I would be surprised if the writers wrap things up nicely by the season finale.  There will almost certainly be cliffhangers or new developments.  The writers probably would have had no reason to believe the show might not get renewed at the time they scripted the arc.

I know it would be nice to see Mack get an ending that is happy... but I don't necessarily feel like it has to happen.  No matter what happens to him, since we have seen that they retain their Framework memories, it won't be fully happy.  If he stays in the Framework, then he remains with Hope in an artificial world that could cease to exist as soon as Ophelia/AIDA pulls the plug.  And then there would be a devastated Yo Yo.  If he comes back to the real world, then he loses Hope and that would be awful for him... but he would have Yo Yo.  I get that people want him to be back in the real world with Hope, but that would be cheap if it happens.  The whole point was that he was being forced to make a difficult choice, he couldn't have it both ways.

Plus, where is it dictated that everyone gets to be happy?  Where was the happy ending for Tripp?  He just suddenly crumbled to dust and that was it.  Where was the happy ending for Lincoln?  Or Bobbi Morse and Lance Hunter?  Those two disappeared presumably to some kind of witness protection and the actors thought they were getting their own show, then it got yanked.

After the treatment of Agent Carter and Most Wanted by the new team at ABC I took the exact opposite prejudice, that the Whedons and writers had no reason to believe that there would be a fifth season. What cliffhangers that are left over will be the concern of an  Agents Of SHIELD comic book. Not exactly the MCU but then better than fan fiction.

I am not expecting a happy ending, but I am expecting to keep enjoying this. Before this Framework arc the best move the show made was Ward and the Hydra turn. Fitz being raised in a way by his father and turning into The Doctor has surpassed that.

[HawaiiTVGuy]

On 5/3/2017 at 11:58 AM, paigow said:

The Backdoor still has a molten cover....Mack needs someone to either recode, or find another Framework!Inhuman if he eventually decides to leave..... 

I thought the solution was going to be cracking the container and letting the molten flow out? Or finding whatever heatsource is keeping the metal hot and shutting it off?  But the idea of bringing a portable exit device works too.

 

Regarding the ratings and future of the show, Disney owns ABC right?  Not the other way around?  And Disney owns Marvel?  So wouldn't Disney tell ABC to keep the show until it hits the syndication point?  Plus they get revenues from Netflix etc.  Unless Agents is really expensive (which it could be) then I would think it is in Disney's best interests to keep pumping out Agents episodes, especially with more MCU movies coming out that they can tie in.

Edited May 5, 2017 by HawaiiTVGuy

[Raja]

4 minutes ago, HawaiiTVGuy said:

I thought the solution was going to be cracking the container and letting the molten flow out? Or finding whatever heatsource is keeping the metal hot and shutting it off?  But the idea of bringing a portable exit device works too.

Dr Radcliffe is still alive in the Framework. he knows what Daisy's power was that opened the porthole along with Mac's mechanical engineering skills if they want him to leave then SHIELD has the resources

Edited May 5, 2017 by Raja

[MisterGlass]

5 hours ago, blackwing said:

Where was the happy ending for Tripp?  He just suddenly crumbled to dust and that was it.  Where was the happy ending for Lincoln?  Or Bobbi Morse and Lance Hunter?

And Victoria Hand.  And Eric Koenig.  And Dr. Garner.  And now Mace.  The only person that I can think of who had a happy ending was Crazy Cal, and that's because they Tahiti'd him.  Maybe the Framework is the happiest ending Mack could get.

[Teitr Styrr]

A little late for this one, but man, just like most of you I am enjoying this arc so much. I hope they get another season.

I knew Mack was gonna stay when he started to figure it out. Still holding out hope (ha) that Hope cam come with him if he does. Tripp was so sweet in that scene when Mack got back.

Man, Fitz was breakin' my heart right along with Jemma's.

If they do win this fight and the Framework is still going, they can just reprogram the backdoor. Science!

[hello]

Quote

The only person that I can think of who had a happy ending was Crazy Cal

Coulson had a happy ending. He blasted Loki through plenty of bulkhead with that BFG before that pesky lil' chest wound took him out. He even inspired the formation of the Avengers, but yes, that was after his death. Still: What an obituary that dude must've had!

Now, of course, Coulson is an undead cyborg (just ask Project T.A.H.I.T.I. and his left forearm!)

But his actual death, in the Avengers movie? Kinda sorta bad ass. He was a mere mortal man who slowed an evil god from another universe down to a grinding halt, in the name of all that he saw as good and noble. Tell me that's not a happy ending - for a warrior, at least!

[Tiger]

14 hours ago, MisterGlass said:

And Victoria Hand.  And Eric Koenig.  And Dr. Garner.  And now Mace.  The only person that I can think of who had a happy ending was Crazy Cal, and that's because they Tahiti'd him.  Maybe the Framework is the happiest ending Mack could get.

For me, it's not about a character getting a "happy" ending; it's about a character getting an ending with at least some degree of finality and closure.  

I think Ward finally got that via Framework!Ward two episodes ago.  But Tripp and Mack's stories still feel so unfinished.  

[TVSpectator]

20 hours ago, MisterGlass said:

And Victoria Hand.  And Eric Koenig.  And Dr. Garner.  And now Mace.  The only person that I can think of who had a happy ending was Crazy Cal, and that's because they Tahiti'd him.  Maybe the Framework is the happiest ending Mack could get.

 

 

Not really. I mean he did kind of die, in my opinion, once he got mindwiped and then it was replaced with memories from a fake life and a fake vet practice, with a fake name, etc... Which is sad because Cal was a great character (and Kyle MacLachlan played the part so amazingly that he was probably one of the best things about Season 2) but part me wants to think that he wanted  to and/or agreed to the mindwipe (and to make SHIELD look a bit better, as well) because he killed Jaiying because she was trying to kill their daughter. 

Edited May 5, 2017 by TVSpectator

[TVSpectator]

8 hours ago, Tiger said:

For me, it's not about a character getting a "happy" ending; it's about a character getting an ending with at least some degree of finality and closure.  

I think Ward finally got that via Framework!Ward two episodes ago.  But Tripp and Mack's stories still feel so unfinished.  

 

 

You know I feel like a lot of the dead characters really didn't have much closure and that a lot of them died before being fully explored and/or used, currently like Mace. Damn, in my opinion, Mace's death hits hard because he so wanted the team to like him and also that he actually wanted to be a real hero. Instead, he died saving kids that were made out of 1s and 0s but still pretty sad all around. 

Edited May 6, 2017 by TVSpectator

[MisterGlass]

1 hour ago, TVSpectator said:

but part me wants to think that he wanted  to and/or agreed to the mindwipe (and to make SHIELD look a bit better, as well) because he killed Jaiying because she was trying to kill their daughter.

That's been my theory.

[Mellowyellow]

Does the framework keep running on indefinately?

Because if Mack left, Framework Hope would be an orphan if the Framework keeps running (or Tripp would raise her)

If that were the case then it's almost as real as the real world. No way I would leave my son behind if his code self would be an orphan in the simulation when I jump out.

Also what happens to Ward's version of Skye? Because I'm assuming that in the Framework he was living with the woman he knew as Skye until Daisy took her space. Since Daisy jumped out through the molten rock does that mean Ward's Skye is now a pile of ash? 

[paigow]

9 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

 

Also what happens to Ward's version of Skye? Because I'm assuming that in the Framework he was living with the woman he knew as Skye until Daisy took her space. Since Daisy jumped out through the molten rock does that mean Ward's Skye is now a pile of ash? 

Framework!Ward might be dead...so Skye & Tripp might hook up and raise Hope...

[jhlipton]

On 5/1/2017 at 4:54 PM, thuganomics85 said:

I'm not sure if I want to know if there really is a restaurant that serves "insect cuisines."

There's at least one restaurant in L.A. that serves grasshoppers.

On 5/3/2017 at 8:32 AM, kay1864 said:

Waiter, there's a fly in my soup!

You mean there's some soup on your fly.

On 5/3/2017 at 2:23 PM, blackwing said:

Maybe there is still hope to get him out?

It would take Hope to get him out.

On 5/3/2017 at 10:24 PM, MisterGlass said:

Speaking of the Superior and his detached head, what do you think the range is?  I had this image of him having to lug the glass jar with his head with him wherever he goes, carrying it around under one arm. 

With 'is 'ead tucked

Underneath 'is arm

'E walks the bloody sub...

[TVSpectator]

23 hours ago, MisterGlass said:

That's been my theory.

Sadly it has never been confirmed on the show. 

21 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Does the framework keep running on indefinately?

Because if Mack left, Framework Hope would be an orphan if the Framework keeps running (or Tripp would raise her)

If that were the case then it's almost as real as the real world. No way I would leave my son behind if his code self would be an orphan in the simulation when I jump out.

Also what happens to Ward's version of Skye? Because I'm assuming that in the Framework he was living with the woman he knew as Skye until Daisy took her space. Since Daisy jumped out through the molten rock does that mean Ward's Skye is now a pile of ash? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think that it was stated that the Framework runs on the power of like all the worlds' computers, through like hacking into them, and/or nuclear power or something that sounds like totally bs to me - not the nuclear power part but the computer part. Either way, it was stated that it takes up a shit ton of power just to run it. As with what will happen to the Framework- if the Framework isn't really another universe/dimension (like the popular fan theory on Reddit states) then I would guess that most likely that everything inside it will disappear/ceases to exist and if Hope, Trip, and Ward doesn't crossover then I guess they would cease to exist as well. Which is depressing to think about. 

As with what will Mack do, honestly, I can't see any parent waiting to leave their daughter, even if she is made out of 1s and 0s (and that in the other real world she died at 4 days old) but I have heard a speculation that they will send Yo-Yo into the Framework just to convince Mack to get out and that it will be played up to the max as "you have to go with me, because this is fake and ending...". It's that or either Hope is going to come through into the real world, or she is going to be the one that convinces her father to leave. Personally, I just can't see this show losing another black character (well, they will kind of be losing two black characters if Trip doesn't come over) after the complaints they got when they killed off Trip. 

All I really know for sure is that when Daisy and Simmons jumped into the Framework they took over their avatars and that was it. I really don't know if Ward is going to ever get his "Skye" back because it seems like the Framework is going to be destroyed by episode 4X22. As of right now, the oil platform is filling up with water so everything is probably going to be short-circuited unless they can stop the water, but then again nothing last forever; not even oil platforms in the real world without human consistent maintenance. Personally, I can see (and I would bet) that FrameWard will come over looking/waiting to have his Skye back. Overall, if Jed Whedon is telling the truth and he is planning for a 5th Season then he is going to need to set up the next season and it probably will be in the stinger in the last episode of this season. 

Overall, in my opinion, I feel like the Framework was more like a gimmicky way of boosting their ratings by bringing back a bunch of dead characters and then having said characters cease to exist. Also, it was probably a way to tie-in into the Secret Empire comic book event, as well. 

11 hours ago, paigow said:

Framework!Ward might be dead...so Skye & Tripp might hook up and raise Hope...

Never underestimate how Ward can keep himself alive. I have theorized that he only allowed Coulson to kill him on that planet because Malick gave him a "come to Hive" moment so to speak. 

Edited May 7, 2017 by TVSpectator

[hello]

Quote

No way I would leave my son behind if his code self would be an orphan in the simulation when I jump out.

Then again, once you're out, you could always create a digital duplicate of yourself within the Framework to take care of "your" son. Hell, you could make him a billionaire if you wanted to, and give the "child" the best life imaginable. It's all ones and zeroes...

[teenj12]

I find it ironic that the last time Daisy held open a portal to another world, Fitz was trying to save Jemma. This time, we had Jemma trying to save Fitz from himself, and even after he shot her leg and attempted to murder her.  When Jemma came back from that planet, she wasn't the same for awhile. Now Fitz is back from the Framework and he appears equally as messed up. 

Fitzsimmons is strangely always kind of tragic. 

[TVSpectator]

2 minutes ago, teenj12 said:

I find it ironic that the last time Daisy held open a portal to another world, Fitz was trying to save Jemma. This time, we had Jemma trying to save Fitz from himself, and even after he shot her leg and attempted to murder her.  When Jemma came back from that planet, she wasn't the same for awhile. Now Fitz is back from the Framework and he appears equally as messed up. 

Fitzsimmons is strangely always kind of tragic. 

 

Well, actually the last time she used her powers to hold up a portal (and not counting this episode) was in Maveth episode where she hold open the portal (for a brief moment), using her powers, to allow Coulson and Fitz back through to Earth. 

2 hours ago, hello said:

Then again, once you're out, you could always create a digital duplicate of yourself within the Framework to take care of "your" son. Hell, you could make him a billionaire if you wanted to, and give the "child" the best life imaginable. It's all ones and zeroes...

 

Still, though Mack won't be with his daughter and I thought that was the whole point of him staying behind?

[hello]

Quote

Still, though Mack won't be with his daughter and I thought that was the whole point of him staying behind?

"It's" not his daughter. "It's" code. His actual daughter is and always will be from now on, dead.

[Lady Calypso]

4 hours ago, hello said:

"It's" not his daughter. "It's" code. His actual daughter is and always will be from now on, dead.

True. But I think the point is that for him, Hope is very much his daughter and very much real. Everyone who was put in the Framework seems to have retained another life of memories. For them, they really lived through the Framework, so Mack really did have a daughter in his mind. So he doesn't want to abandon his daughter. He doesn't even have his real life memories at this point, so Hope is the only person he believes is real because he did take care of her and was her father for many years. 

And that's what I love about this arc. Even though we know the Framework is just a computer program, even thought Daisy and Simmons know it's just a bunch of ones and zeros, it's still not a black and white situation. We had Simmons feeling guilty over killing Fitz's father, even though she had to be told he was just a program. We had Mace sacrifice his life for kids, even though they weren't real. So they may know in the back of their mind that it's not real, but they are still reacting to the Framework as if, other than Fitz, May, Coulson, Mack, Daisy, Simmons, and previously Mace, it's all real. It's being projected through their real life locations, real life loved ones, and real life regrets and other emotions. So it's very easy to get lost in the Framework and forget that none of it is real. 

[xqueenfrostine]

7 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

True. But I think the point is that for him, Hope is very much his daughter and very much real. Everyone who was put in the Framework seems to have retained another life of memories. For them, they really lived through the Framework, so Mack really did have a daughter in his mind. So he doesn't want to abandon his daughter. He doesn't even have his real life memories at this point, so Hope is the only person he believes is real because he did take care of her and was her father for many years. 

And that's what I love about this arc. Even though we know the Framework is just a computer program, even thought Daisy and Simmons know it's just a bunch of ones and zeros, it's still not a black and white situation. 

I agree.  And the show has gone out of its way to set that point up.  That was the point of the scene between Ward and Simmons a few episodes ago where both were looking on at Mack and Hope.  If the relationship between Mack and Hope could feel real and be moving to Simmons, someone who only had real world memories and looked at people inside the Framework as bits of code, it has to be a thousand times more powerful for Mack.  He'll mourn Hope like a real child, if he ever makes it back to the real world.  To him it'll be like losing his baby a second time.  

[Daltrey]

On ‎2017‎-‎05‎-‎02 at 8:00 PM, Lady Calypso said:

I'd rather they produced a body for Hope!

I never even considered that as a possibility but I love it!

 

On ‎2017‎-‎05‎-‎02 at 8:00 PM, Lady Calypso said:

I did say "WTF" at her disappearing act with Fitz

Exactly what I said too. I wonder if she somehow managed to actually make herself a meta human.

[Raja]

4 hours ago, Daltrey said:

 

Exactly what I said too. I wonder if she somehow managed to actually make herself a meta human.

Well if Darkhold magic/science is as good as alien Kree science then Ophelia makes herself an Inhuman., Why not fear of the Watchdogs and The Superior turning on her? Or she has an internal Darkhold tech to copy her comic's character AIM tech for the teleportation device

[TVSpectator]

On 5/7/2017 at 4:30 AM, hello said:

"It's" not his daughter. "It's" code. His actual daughter is and always will be from now on, dead.

But the whole point of the Framework was to give them memories of a life that either didn't include their past regrets and/or fixes something that allows them to live different lives. They are not brainwashed (like some have said) but they just have different life experiences that lead them down different paths and the only one that seems iffy to me is May's being so able and willing to work not only with Hydra but as Hydra. Mack's was to be with his daughter and to him, she is real and he doesn't want to go back to the reality where she died as a 4 day-old infant. 

[sinkwriter]

Quote

Of course the first thing that realgirlAIDA does is throw a giant smirk on her smug face! God I am tired of her smirks. 

After all she's done... she needs to die. I cannot stand her. 

[hello]

Quote

Mack's was to be with his daughter and to him, she is real and he doesn't want to go back to the reality where she died as a 4 day-old infant. 

You're right, I see your point. But this reality is the only one Mack has - the one he needed to return to or he would physically die. Rough for sure, but true. I was just saying that, if he were out of the Framework, he could still make sure CodeHope was cared for by programming in a CodeMack.

But your talking about his perception of CodeHope, so I think we might be having a slightly different conversation than I originally thought.

It's occurred to me that it would be impossible to have such a deep conversation about the Flash or Supergirl because the writing on SHIELD is a whole other league better. Guess I should enjoy it while we've got it; I think season five has got to be the last for SHIELD. At least it will go out with some fine storytelling under its belt, that you can't find anywhere else on super hero TV shows...