S06.E17: Awake

[superloislane]

Hilariously in interviews Ginny tends to say she can't understand a lot of stuff Snow does so this isn't new

I can totally see Charming's self-blame in the show though. I just remember the nightmare he had of Emma telling him he failed her and then in his episode this season he talked about how Prince Charming might not be enough to save Emma and Snow

[andromeda331]

5 minutes ago, Camera One said:

It looks like Josh has developed a whole mindset of self-blame in his character, while Ginny admitted she can't relate.

I wonder how they *actually* reacted.

It must stink to have a character with so many things she could be doing but can't. Snow has so many issues and things that happened to her but she can't deal with any of it. Snow was robbed of her mother, her father, her kingdom, years being married to her husband and raising her daughter. She knows who's responsible for it all but her character can't do anything but cheer up Regina. She can't be angry about another sleeping curse, she can't be mad about missing out on raising her daughter, scared her daughter might die that her becoming a Savior is why she is a target. Her character couldn't comfort Emma when Hook left so she had to be too drunk to be of any use. Instead have her character do stupid things letting Regina go after her trial, trust Arthur, trust Zelena and chose the cursed town, over raising her daughter leaving poor Emma to grow up alone bouncing from foster home to foster home and end up in jail thanks to Neal despite the fact Snow was originally suppose to go with Emma so she wouldn't be alone.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

I wonder how they *actually* reacted.

If only they interviewed like Robert Carlyle.

Quote

GINNIFER GOODWIN: It was hard for me to relate in real life because, especially now that I have children, I wholeheartedly, selfishly would have just taken care of myself and my immediate family, gross as that may be. So it was hard to find a more generous place in my spirit, but I found what Snow did to be of the utmost integrity and very Snow White-esque; very in keeping with her character.

Even though I personally don't have children, I understand where Ginny is coming from. In 2x01, Snow and Charming both attempted to jump through the portal with Emma because they didn't want to lose her again... town be damned. They also went with Emma to Neverland, and thought about staying there out of love for each other. But then in 3B, they started prioritizing the kingdom again for whatever reason. "Emma and Henry can take care of themselves." They acted very negligent of Emma through S4. But in S5, they risked everything to follow her to Camelot and the Underworld. Suddenly, their daughter mattered more than the random townspeople.

I realize I'm over-simplifying things because each situation was different, but it comes down to how the writers are steering the characters. It's the message they're trying to convey. Half the time, Snowing sacrificed what they wanted for the greater good. The other half, they didn't care about the redshirts at all and said, "Screw it, our family is more important."

Quote

It must stink to have a character with so many things she could be doing but can't. Snow has so many issues and things that happened to her but she can't deal with any of it. 

If the show was aware Snow put up a facade to avoid her issues, then that would be interesting. But, that would involve throwing shade to Regina, and we can't have that.

Edited April 17, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[CCTC]

30 minutes ago, superloislane said:

Hilariously in interviews Ginny tends to say she can't understand a lot of stuff Snow does so this isn't new

I can totally see Charming's self-blame in the show though. I just remember the nightmare he had of Emma telling him he failed her and then in his episode this season he talked about how Prince Charming might not be enough to save Emma and Snow

I actually thought Josh sold his anguish more than Ginny.  I think there might be a little bit of her more just going through the motions at this point.  I felt the same with Gold as well.  Neither Ginny or Robert were bad, but they seemed a little flat.  I think normally they are two of the stronger actors, but I think they are ready to move on it shows from time to time.  I thought Josh was also entertaining in the brief lighter moment of when he first woke up and his initial cursed scene with Grumpy.  I also think he sells the parental bond with Emma more at this point.  I would like both Snow and Charming on the show at least part time, but if Charming came back for some solo episodes with Snow/Ginny off screen with the fictional and real babies - I think I would be OK with that.  Hook, Emma, and Charming occasionally solving a fairy tale crime would not be a bad way to spend an hour.

I am glad there is not going to be a long-drawn out schism between Charming and Hook, but the murder of his Dad probably deserved more than a ten second - no problem bro - we are good.  

The solving of the curse, really made no sense whatsoever, but I did find it a bit touching that all the town was involved.  Too bad, they don't use more of the secondary characters more frequently.

I thought Henry had been improving a bit as an actor.  I might have been premature with that assessment.

I am not finding the Black Fairy really that menacing.  The actress is not bad, but not sure I feel that she is the ultimate evil.  Its too bad they did not give that to Jafar/Oded.  He exuded some good old-fashioned menace that would be more convincing for the "Final Battle".

While I feel Josh and Ginny have been underutilized -- they are screen hogs compared to Belle.  They literally have her come out for two lines an episode, and they are the same lines every time - babbling about he is good or he has good or there is still good behind you.   She was actually interesting the beginning of the season when she and Gold were going at it - but that seems like a long time ago now.

Edited April 17, 2017 by CCTC

[Curio]

3 hours ago, HariboPeach said:

The pixie flower portal opener true love finder might be the dumbest thing this show has ever done.

I really, really, really don't understand why the writers think this is a good writing technique. Clearly, they think dropping brand new items out of the blue is the most amazing writing technique ever because they do it all the time. Need to fix a problem? Invent a new magical deus ex machina at the last second. They probably go around the writers' room and pitch random magical objects that can work as deus ex machinas instead of combing through their past history and coming up with ways that makes sense in canon.

Also, I'm going to nitpick the scene where Emma rescues Hook. After so many episodes being separated, Emma's rescue seemed very anticlimactic and rushed, and I think a lot of that has to do with the direction. This show is notorious for terrible staging and bad choreography in fight scenes, but it really made no sense how Hook was able to free himself from the stake, what Emma even thought she was accomplishing by shoving a random Lost Boy to the ground, and how Tiger Lily was able to escape so easily. First, boost the tension by having one of the Lost Boys light the wood pile around Hook to make the scene more dynamic and climactic. (It would also be a parallel to when Emma had to watch Regina burn Snow alive at the stake in Season 3.) Having fire around Killian while he's tied to the pole gives Emma a much clearer task and makes it seem like a much more dire situation. Television is visual medium, so why wouldn't you want to have the cool visual of rescuing someone from the flames? (Besides monetary reasons, of course.) Was Killian even tied at that point? Was that why he was able to break free so easily? Talk about anticlimactic if he wasn't even tied. And then we have Emma not using her magic to take down the Lost Boys...she's the Savior and doesn't even bother using magic to blast some of the Lost Boys away or freeze them? She seemed to have no problem blasting Old Hook away when it called for it, but she can't use her magic when Hook is actually in trouble? I'm just astonished that entire sequence took all of 30 seconds after numerous episodes of being separated. It felt like Granny's Bathroom Heart Shove 2.0.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Curio

[mercfan3]

Is it bad that I tend to know what the writers are going for? Not that I think they do a perfect job of executing, but I get their point? I'm not sure what that says about me. 

I get Snow's POV. Generally speaking, the mythology of a savior is of an orphan. She was meant to be alone for 28 years, and find storybrook when she did. If Charming and Snow meddled, it could screw up life for everyone. The heroes in this show are pure good. I think everyone else builds from that scale, but Charming and Snow are pure good who are heroes and put other people ahead of themselves. 

IMO, Emma and Hook are a good match, because they are a little step under that. They won't always do what is absolutely best for everyone else, but perhaps they are more "right." They aren't afraid to throw a punch. 

And it just continues down the line from there. One thing I always enjoyed about Rumple's character is his complexity. He's a power hunger guy who used to be a good man..and has those morals..but the power hungry side wins out more often than not. What I enjoy about him though..is that there is a line in the sand with him as to how evil he is willing to go. And the fact that the line is drawn at his parents is hilarious. 

I loved this episode for the most part. I didn't even mind the retcon. I do agree, that I wish they'd leave hints to this stuff earlier on. My biggest gripe was with the potion drinking at the end. 1. It was way too cheesy. 2. Emma and Regina let Henry drink it?  3. Regina spent how many episodes working on a potion, and then just suddenly comes up with this? I would have liked more build up...

[ParadoxLost]

1 hour ago, CCTC said:

While I feel Josh and Ginny have been underutilized -- they are screen hogs compared to Belle.  They literally have her come out for two lines an episode, and they are the same lines every time - babbling about he is good or he has good or there is still good behind you.   She was actually interesting the beginning of the season when she and Gold were going at it - but that seems like a long time ago now.

The scene where Belle came out of Gold's backroom after Gideon called BF his Mother was baffling to me. The whole point of creating the sort of conflict where a child was stolen and raised by the kidnapper is to create drama.  You don't skip over the actual birth mother who had her child stolen hearing that comment.  To make it worse I think it was said in the first place to help Rumple understand that BF has Gideon's heart so it would have made more sense if it was said in a way as egregious and hurtful to Belle as possible.

Its like those shows that take the approach of delivering bad /death news without dialogue.  They think its high art.  I think its that they writers know they can't write or the writers know the actor can't act depending on the show.

47 minutes ago, Curio said:

I really, really, really don't understand why the writers think this is a good writing technique. Clearly, they think dropping brand new items out of the blue is the most amazing writing technique ever because they do it all the time. Need to fix a problem? Invent a new magical deus ex machina at the last second. They probably go around the writers' room and pitch random magical objects that can work as deus ex machinas instead of combing through their past history and coming up with ways that makes sense in canon.

I think its expediency and structure.

This was really easy to fix if they weren't tied to the flashback structure.  I can't immediately think of how they could have accomplished their checklist for the episode without using the flashbacks as a dream world or stretching over two episodes.  TSo it obviously took more than five minutes to come up with something so they went with deus ex machina. 

When you break down the episode it starts to have the feel of a to do list or an outline.

• Sleeping curse broken
• Snowing see young Emma
• Get wand shard to Emma
• Get Hook home
• Have Hook make sacrifice to "earn" forgiveness from David
• Have townsfolk make sacrifice to thank Snowing for all they have done 
• Figure out BF is in town
• Figure out BF has Gideon's heart
• Need flashbacks

They needed to edit down the list of things to get accomplished to spend more time on any of them.  They clearly were unwilling to drop anything from the list or move it to a subsequent episode. 

Edited April 17, 2017 by ParadoxLost

[Camera One]

44 minutes ago, Curio said:

Emma's rescue seemed very anticlimactic and rushed, and I think a lot of that has to do with the direction. This show is notorious for terrible staging and bad choreography in fight scenes, but it really made no sense how Hook was able to free himself from the stake, what Emma even thought she was accomplishing by shoving a random Lost Boy to the ground, and how Tiger Lily was able to escape so easily. 

If someone had just tuned in to the show, it would have been laughable.  A crazy lady wearing a really ugly shirt came out of a really bad CGI door and started charging forward.  The distraction was all that was needed for Hook to Houdini himself away and for Tiger Lily to escape, smiling that she's not going to be personally present for the most dangerous battle ever.

[tennisgurl]

3 hours ago, pezgirl7 said:

The way he looked at little Emma was beautiful.

Wow, Josh is just so very attractive, and he cries very well. No wonder they give him angst whenever they bother giving him anything, his sad eyes make me forget a LOT of bullshit to focus on the pretty.

I think Joshes thoughts on Charming's guilt complex lines up really well with what I've always seen from Charming, even if its usually in the background. I think he really feels awful about everything that's happened to his family and to his people, and he feels like he should have been able to do more, as a husband, father, and leader. I don't think it weighs him down constantly, and I don't think he lets it affect him that much day to day (he's not Spider-Man, blaming himself for every paper cut everyone has ever gotten, ever), but it is something I have seen from him in the past. Like the episode where he met with Rapunzel and went on that quest, which he did because he felt like he had previously failed to protect Emma, and he didn't give her the life he felt she deserved. It would actually be nice seeing him actually talk about that, maybe with Hook. They could bond over their guilt over previous actions, and how they're trying to move on from them, or he could tell Emma how sorry he was that he couldn't protect her as a baby. Its nice to see Josh has picked up on this too. He definitely seems to feel worse about things then Snow does, who is so all about her "Hope damn it!" philosophy, that I don't think she thinks about her past mistakes too much, unless it gets brought up. Or its about the Horrible Secret, truly her most evil deed.

Really, Charming's biggest issue as a leader/family man is that he always listens to Snow and her truly terrible decisions.

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, Curio said:

I'm just astonished that entire sequence took all of 30 seconds after numerous episodes of being separated. It felt like Granny's Bathroom Heart Shove 2.0.

Yeah, that should have been a big, climactic moment -- at least some kind of fight, maybe some tension about whether they'd make it back through the door before it closed. Instead, it was a rather perfunctory trip through a door to cap off several episodes of Hook's epic quest to get home, and it all came about because of a flower ex machina that conveniently showed up to provide an instant solution to the problem.

[HariboPeach]

10 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Yeah, that should have been a big, climactic moment -- at least some kind of fight, maybe some tension about whether they'd make it back through the door before it closed. Instead, it was a rather perfunctory trip through a door to cap off several episodes of Hook's epic quest to get home, and it all came about because of a flower ex machina that conveniently showed up to provide an instant solution to the problem.

Their timing is pretty awful. If they want to get engaged, whatever (though I'd prefer Emma with Neal, Regina, August, Grumpy, Granny, and I'm sure this is where we part ways, sorry y'all) but I don't think that was necessarily the right time. A&E wanted to give an epic reunion, they failed. It was rushed and blah and anticlimactic and I think the shadow had more of an impact than both of them on their knees.

[KAOS Agent]

Quote

leaving your parents to sleep in a hellish fever dream for eternity seems like a really shitty thing to do

Fun fact: The sleeping curse puts you in the mirror room. The fire room occurs in your dreams after you've awakened from the curse. It's why both Aurora and Henry were able to communicate. They were in the fire room in their dreams post curse. Snow talks about it to Aurora in "Tallahassee". So Emma would have been subjecting her parents to hellish fever dreams if she woke them up, not by letting them sleep.

[Camera One]

At this point, after so much dunks in the Sleeping Curse can, Snow and Charming are probably experiencing being flamebroiled in an ice bath.  But don't worry about it, it's basically just sleeping and you wake up minty fresh.

[HariboPeach]

30 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

Fun fact: The sleeping curse puts you in the mirror room. The fire room occurs in your dreams after you've awakened from the curse. It's why both Aurora and Henry were able to communicate. They were in the fire room in their dreams post curse. Snow talks about it to Aurora in "Tallahassee". So Emma would have been subjecting her parents to hellish fever dreams if she woke them up, not by letting them sleep.

Is "fun fact" condescending to the OP? I thought that was frowned upon here.

So that means anyone that's been under a sleeping curse will have fever dreams for the rest of their lives? The whole town now? That seems excessive.

This whole episode (series in retrospect?) is filled with the most nonsensical magic and sappy escape clauses. 

[adam807]

5 hours ago, Camera One said:

Ah, I see.  I missed that line.

Yeah I had to rewind. All that business with the flowers and I was like "But wasn't there a flower in her video??" It was just petals in the video though, so they had to find the source. 

[Shanna Marie]

7 minutes ago, HariboPeach said:

So that means anyone that's been under a sleeping curse will have fever dreams for the rest of their lives? The whole town now?

That was the way they stated it in season two, but it hasn't really been mentioned since then. I think it was mentioned that it faded some over time. We also don't know if this is the same sleeping curse. There was also Maleficent's other sleeping spell during season 4 that knocked out the whole town except for the ones who'd been in a sleeping curse, so goodness knows how that affected everyone.

So, basically, as with so many other things on this show, how it all works is subject to change according to the needs of the plot and the whims of the writers. If at some time in the future they need to be able to communicate in the red room, they'll have the dreams. If not, they'll never be mentioned.

[tri4335]

So the scenes of the flashback for Emma, GG seems like 20 lbs skinner, which makes me feel like these were filmed more recently. Or perhaps the makeup artist on those days is just better at slimming her face.  But in this one for sure and a couple of the previous episodes there are some shots that it appears there was some time between filming.

I just can't with the 4000 lb elephant that all this is Regina and Rumple's fault but nobody gets to actually SAY it in "real time".

Oh and I'm sticking with my theory that you can enjoy an episode in itself with great acting etc but connecting to the overall story is just inconceivable!  A & E truly do suck at show running.

Edited April 18, 2017 by tri4335

[KAOS Agent]

Quote

Is "fun fact" condescending to the OP? I thought that was frowned upon here.

I wasn't condescending to the poster. I was saying it was a fun fact that the curse doesn't put you in the fiery room because many people, including many responding to the comment, don't remember that. It was from S2 after all. Who remembers that? Certainly not the writers.  I wasn't picking on the poster, just stating facts as they are in canon, but I quoted the comment because it was the earliest and clearest misstatement of the effects of the curse. It led to a discussion that continued on the false premise of the fiery room sleeping curse, which paints Emma in a very different light than the more ironic truth that Emma waking her parents actually subjects them to fiery hell. 

[Camera One]

11 minutes ago, tri4335 said:

I just can't with the 4000 lb elephant that all this is Regina and Rumple's fault but nobody gets to actually SAY it in "real time".

That made me wonder... are we seriously supposed to believe that Rumple knew all this time that The Final Battle would be Emma vs. his mother?  What a joke.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Camera One

[Tiger]

9 minutes ago, tri4335 said:

So the scenes of the flashback for Emma, GG seems like 20 lbs skinner, which makes me feel like these were filmed more recently. Or perhaps the makeup artist on those days is just better at slimming her face.  But in this one for sure and a couple of the previous episodes there are some shots that it appears there was some time between filming.

I just can't with the 4000 lb elephant that all this is Regina and Rumple's fault but nobody gets to actually SAY it in "real time".

Oh and I'm sticking with my theory that you can enjoy an episode in itself with great acting etc but connecting to the overall story is just inconceivable!  A & E truly do suck at show running.

I've noticed Lana's hair also seems to be changing lenght, and its definitely not just styling.  It was much longer in the Issac scenes last week and in the scenes where Issac was mentioned, the proposal where she usheres Henry away, and in the flashbacks.  

[jhlipton]

22 hours ago, Camera One said:

Did she get a day-ahead news update from the Ex-Fairy listserve?  I

rec.arts.BlkFry

21 hours ago, Worsel said:

I assume that out of guilt Tiger Lily felt compelled to remain in Neverland as punishment for her role in the Black Fairy's path to darkness.  Although I would also have preferred she come through the portal.

A woman of color in StoryBrooke?  Surely you jest!

20 hours ago, Camera One said:

Yes, that is a really good idea.  The flashbacks could actually have been the recurring dream that Snow and Charming were having for the last few weeks. 

Moreover, if it's a dream, you don't have the problem of the Disappearing Pixie Petunia.

12 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

And Defiance; she was Stahma Tarr.

Stahna Freakin' Tarr -- she was so awesome in that role!

 

11 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

The more I think about the Magical Flower of Contrivance, the less sense it makes.

So, this magical flower was able to grow in Storybrooke even during the time when there was still no magic, and its magic worked. Regina being mildly bitchy was apparently enough evil to make this flower grow. And yet, we've never seen any more of these flowers in town during the time magic has been working.

One showed up roughly a third of the way through the Curse (10 out of 28 years), but never came back all the way through Operation Mongoose.    Bah!

[Shanna Marie]

5 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

One showed up roughly a third of the way through the Curse (10 out of 28 years), but never came back all the way through Operation Mongoose. 

Oh, right, I forgot the Queens of Darkness in my list. Cruella alone should have spawned a garden, even if Ursula and Maleficent were redeemable and "misunderstood."

Heck, Snow's dark spotted heart after she killed Cora should have produced at least one bloom, from the way they talked about how awful that was.

[Camera One]

Too bad Elsa couldn't find the Pixie flower in 4A.  I guess Ingrid and Zarian weren't "evil" enough.

Shouldn't these flowers be a common occurrence in The Enchanted forest where there's always "great evil"?  In fact, Snowing should have stockpiled them during The Missing Year.  Makes "I will always find you" 50000000000 times easier.

[Camera One]

Once upon a time, in a land far away, there lived a princess by the name of Snow White.  Her Evil Stepmother gave her a poisoned apple.  One bite and she fell under a Sleeping Curse.  The 7 Dwarves and Snow's friends cut up the rest of the apple and they all ate some at a potluck, and Snow awoke!  And they lived happily ever after until The Evil Queen tried to murder them again and again and again and again and again and again and again.  The End.

[Curio]

1 hour ago, tri4335 said:

I just can't with the 4000 lb elephant that all this is Regina and Rumple's fault but nobody gets to actually SAY it in "real time".

This has bothered me since Season 2 when Emma always mentioned how Snow and Charming gave her up as a baby, but it was never really mentioned that Snow and Charming were saving Emma's life by not allowing Regina to murder her. And somehow, it's Emma's responsibility in this episode to fix a problem Regina made when Regina put Snow and Charming under the sleeping curse. How is it that Emma is getting more beef about choosing to not wake up her parents right away when that should be Regina's problem to solve? Regina is the one who originally put Snow and Charming under the curse, she's the one who decided to send the other half of herself away to a happily ever after realm without recruiting herself to help fix the issue, and she's the one who neglected to tell Snow and Charming about the very specific side effects of the cure. So how did it become Emma's sole responsibility to fix Regina's mess?

[Camera One]

Missing Scene.

REGINA:  It's risky but it might work if we all drink the Sleeping potion to dilute its power.  Let's head over to the town hall where everyone is gathering.

ZELENA: Uh... oops, I totally forgot it's Baby Robin's feeding time.  Uh.  I'll.... uh, meet you there ... ... ... ?

Edited April 18, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Just now, Camera One said:

Missing Scene.

REGINA:  It's risky but it might work if we all drink the Sleeping potion to dilute its power.  Let's head over to the town hall where everyone is gathering.

ZELENA: Uh... oops, I totally forgot it's Baby Robin's feeding time.  Meet you there ... ... ... 

Zelena has been the smart one since 5A.

[Dianthus]

I think that's what bothers me most of all. If they acknowledge how genuinely terrible it was for Snowing to miss out on raising Emma, they can't really go on and on about how it was actually a good thing their beloved Reggie cast the curse, you see, because "reasons." So they make Snowing give up on raising their child. Once again, it's all about Emma somehow being better off growing up frightened and alone, deprived of her parents, so she could fulfill her destiny (Destiny! Destiny! That's for me!). I really f*ckin' hate these guys.

Also too: This is only the second(?) time we've seen Hook and Emma asleep together, both times fully clothed (not even in pjs), never mind that they're confirmed True Love, living together, and engaged to be married.

[Rumsy4]

I still can't see how Snow stood there looking at baby Emma, and not even have the urge to go hold her. It's unnatural, and takes me out of the story. It certainly fits the pattern of Snow prioritizing everything and the kitchen sink before Emma, but the moment is so egregious. At least David showed emotion. Snow seemed frozen. I donno why Ginny chose to play it that way, but Snow broke down more over having to say goodbye to David again over turning her back on Emma. But again, I don't hold David any less responsible for what happened. And the whole plan makes zero sense considering Snow was supposed to go with infant Emma in the first place. These retcons are frankly insulting to viewers and characters alike. 

I did love Josh's performance as the newly awakened Charming. He did a fantastic job throughout the episode. What a shame he is so wasted in this Show. 

[KAOS Agent]

The whole problem with the Saviour storyline this season is that Emma as the Saviour is fated to die. So when we see Snowing not take the step to raise their lonely daughter because it's her destiny to be the Saviour, it becomes even worse. They didn't know this, but David's comment that they wouldn't have allowed her to be the Saviour if they'd known makes me wonder about them. It's like Emma suffering a miserable childhood where she's living on the streets at age eight was still okay and totally worth it (the message given at the end of this episode), but oops, it turns out the Saviour must fight a final battle (a known thing per the Pilot) and is fated to die and now they think they should have done things differently. Seriously? Only death is an acceptable reason for them to think maybe it was a bad idea and they should have changed things.

Even worse, Emma was completely accepting of their choice. She said that obviously they should choose the people of Storybrooke over her. That's seriously messed up for her to immediately respond that way. I get that she had a lot of things on her mind and it wasn't the time to get into it, but I really hope she talks about it with someone who can help adjust her thought process to understand that she is important and didn't deserve to have Storybrooke prioritized over her. She doesn't need to be angry about it or even confront her parents, but simply accepting that she's the sacrificial lamb and that's totally fine because other people are more important than her is not okay and it would help if she understood that.

Edited April 18, 2017 by KAOS Agent

[Rumsy4]

13 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

Only death is an acceptable reason for them to think maybe it was a bad idea and they should have changed things.

Quote

Even worse, Emma was completely accepting of their choice. 

Sadly, all this falls in line with the series of justifications that started in 3B that Neal had no choice but to abandon Emma. That August "helped" Emma when she was a child, and is somehow one of her best friends. That growing up with loving parents would have turned her into a childlike innocent with no courage or skills, etc., etc.. This reasoning that Emma should have grown up lonely, broke, betrayed, and hopeless to become the savior is completely messed up. And there still hasn't been a single justification produced for it on-screen.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Rumsy4

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, Curio said:

This has bothered me since Season 2 when Emma always mentioned how Snow and Charming gave her up as a baby, but it was never really mentioned that Snow and Charming were saving Emma's life by not allowing Regina to murder her. And somehow, it's Emma's responsibility in this episode to fix a problem Regina made when Regina put Snow and Charming under the sleeping curse. How is it that Emma is getting more beef about choosing to not wake up her parents right away when that should be Regina's problem to solve? Regina is the one who originally put Snow and Charming under the curse, she's the one who decided to send the other half of herself away to a happily ever after realm without recruiting herself to help fix the issue, and she's the one who neglected to tell Snow and Charming about the very specific side effects of the cure. So how did it become Emma's sole responsibility to fix Regina's mess?

Me too I know it'll never happen but I wish for once it would be pointed out it was all Regina's fault. Thanks to the REC it never will never happen. Snow and Charming get the blame that belongs to Regina for casting the curse and was going to murder baby Emma.  Charming was injured getting Emma to safety. Snow was going to go with Emma but went into labor early. So Emma went alone. Snow didn't find out until season two that the wardrobe did take two and she could have gone with Emma. Regina never gets the blame for everything she did to Snow White or to anyone. Snow White even takes the blame because she was in her own words "a brat". I know A&E love nothing more then blaming the victims for what happened and never the villains.  But it still drives me crazy..

[Rushmoras]

Well, at least I did not fall asleep in this episode. Mostly liked everything in it apart how Snow and David were woken up. That was just... yeah...

P.S. Dude, you are supposed to be the baddest of the bad, the darkest of the dark and the worst of the worst, and yet, every bloke can get your dagger? Dude, you f'in suck in being evil.

[CCTC]

3 hours ago, Rushmoras said:

Well, at least I did not fall asleep in this episode. Mostly liked everything in it apart how Snow and David were woken up. That was just... yeah...

P.S. Dude, you are supposed to be the baddest of the bad, the darkest of the dark and the worst of the worst, and yet, every bloke can get your dagger? Dude, you f'in suck in being evil.

I kind of wish they would have let Rumple go out in a blaze of evil.  They have really watered down the character and made him pretty ineffective in trying to make him a viable long-term character.  With him absorbing all of the dark ones, he could have been a great big bad for this season.  It would have been more interesting than him fretting about Gideon and would have given Carlyle something to sink his teeth into.

[asabovesobelow]

10 hours ago, jhlipton said:

One showed up roughly a third of the way through the Curse (10 out of 28 years), but never came back all the way through Operation Mongoose.    Bah!

That is a HUGE oversight!! Cruella was canonized as the villain who was evil for evil's sake, not misunderstood, not a sad sack, just an evil gal who liked to do bad things. She didn't warrant even ONE flower??

[Rumsy4]

The retconning of the pixie flowers makes no sense (as with other retcons this season). The flowers had started dying in Neverland by the time the Nevengers showed up to SaveHenry. It was tied to the magic in Neverland and Pan needing the heart of the Truest Believer to revive it. But now apparently, it means that Pan wasn't evil enough any longer to warrant the growth of the pixie flowers. And seriously, why didn't anyone find a single pixie flower after the Dark Curse was broken, or in the EF at anytime? And yet, Charming was able to identify it from a stray petal in the phone-video Snow left him.  

[HariboPeach]

10 hours ago, Curio said:

This has bothered me since Season 2 when Emma always mentioned how Snow and Charming gave her up as a baby, but it was never really mentioned that Snow and Charming were saving Emma's life by not allowing Regina to murder her. And somehow, it's Emma's responsibility in this episode to fix a problem Regina made when Regina put Snow and Charming under the sleeping curse. How is it that Emma is getting more beef about choosing to not wake up her parents right away when that should be Regina's problem to solve? Regina is the one who originally put Snow and Charming under the curse, she's the one who decided to send the other half of herself away to a happily ever after realm without recruiting herself to help fix the issue, and she's the one who neglected to tell Snow and Charming about the very specific side effects of the cure. So how did it become Emma's sole responsibility to fix Regina's mess?

I don't think it's Emma' responsibility, but she should care about it since they are her parents and all. Is Emma getting more beef? I don't see that at all. At all. Where did the idea that it was Emma's sole responsibility to fix Regina's mess come from? A solution was given to her and she had a choice how to use it. She chose to go save Killian. Regina had no intention of giving up looking for a sleeping curse cure, so again, I'm not sure where this is coming from?

[CCTC]

13 minutes ago, HariboPeach said:

She chose to go save Killian.

Yes - and I was kind of under the impression she chose to save Killian because she thought it was the only chance and was in imminent peril, and she would come back and try to help with her parents.  I thought Snow even said "you will figure out a way to wake us - god save Hook"  (bad paraphrasing).  She probably chose correctly given the bad circumstances.  Hook was about to die and they did wake her parents.

They should have really just use a curse once or maybe twice, because each time they reuse a curse and undo it, it is usually in a way contrary to what you were originally told about said curse.

[superloislane]

2 hours ago, CCTC said:

I kind of wish they would have let Rumple go out in a blaze of evil.  They have really watered down the character and made him pretty ineffective in trying to make him a viable long-term character.  With him absorbing all of the dark ones, he could have been a great big bad for this season.  It would have been more interesting than him fretting about Gideon and would have given Carlyle something to sink his teeth into.

I'm actually shocked at what they're doing with Rumple. They made him the darkest dark one EVER and yet he seems weaker than he was before. It seems like everyone keeps getting his dagger and he hasn't done anything with his powers that's different to what he could do before. I really thought they were going to have him be the big bad after he took back the dark one curse but I guess not. I think he'll probably die at the end but now I think it will be a sacrificial death for his son or something and he'll go out a big damn hero. Ugh.

[HariboPeach]

15 minutes ago, CCTC said:

Yes - and I was kind of under the impression she chose to save Killian because she thought it was the only chance and was in imminent peril, and she would come back and try to help with her parents.  I thought Snow even said "you will figure out a way to wake us - god save Hook"  (bad paraphrasing).  She probably chose correctly given the bad circumstances.  Hook was about to die and they did wake her parents.

This argument has gone round and round but I think someone mentioned above it depends on which glasses you view things through. Emma/KIllian 'ship glasses or Emma/Snow-Charming glasses. Since we're in a heavily biased Emma/Killian forum they'll be lots of agreement with the idea that she did what she had to do, but on other corners of the net there are tons of people who think Emma turned into a self centered jerk who gave up everything she used to be for a dude. I find both Emma and Regina are weak knockoffs of their former selves (Rumple too for that matter), and this episode did nothing to dispel that notion. 

[Shanna Marie]

6 minutes ago, superloislane said:

It seems like everyone keeps getting his dagger and he hasn't done anything with his powers that's different to what he could do before.

He went more than a century without anyone ever getting his dagger, and now it's practically a weekly occurrence -- after he became mega powerful.

While it's hard for me to get my mind around being okay with leaving your daughter alone, thinking about it, I wonder what would have happened if the Charmings had gone after her. I guess Snow might have had ID for a Mary Margaret Blanchard who lived in Storybrooke, Maine, but David wouldn't have had any legal identity, and since Snow got her ID from a curse, did the curse backstop it? If someone checked whatever state agency in Maine that issues drivers' licenses, would they have had any record of her? So, these two people with questionable identity show up out of the blue and claim that a foster kid is their daughter. They did have DNA testing at that time, so they could have verified her relationship to them, but what then? There would have been no record of them filing a police report for a missing infant or reporting a kidnapping. We know (based on the news clips Emma had) that there was extensive regional news about the mystery baby, but Snow and David didn't notice, even while their daughter was missing? They couldn't exactly say that they were under a curse that whole time and didn't know they had a daughter until just now. So the very likely outcome would have been that they would have been arrested for child abandonment/endangerment. Emma would have been put through a roller coaster ride of emotions, of having parents and then losing them, being told that they'd abandoned her and never reported her missing, and she'd have stayed in foster care, possibly now even less adoptable because she had living parents.

That's what's really dumb about this retcon. It's posed as though they had a choice, but it's not as though it would have worked out well for Emma, no matter what they did. There's no way they'd have been able to walk through that door, claim their daughter, and live happily ever after.

Incidentally, there was a nice interview with the actress who plays little Emma in today's Dallas Morning News. Turns out, she's from the next town over from me.

[Mitch]

13 hours ago, HariboPeach said:

 

So that means anyone that's been under a sleeping curse will have fever dreams for the rest of their lives? The whole town now? That seems excessive.

This whole episode (series in retrospect?) is filled with the most nonsensical magic and sappy escape clauses. 

I have to hand it to the writers and producers, just when I think they have topped themselves in utter stupidity they continue to say "Hold my beer!" While the show is a complete mess at this point I just can't keep my eyes off it to see how low they can go up to very end.

Where do I start? Oh yes, how about that goofy flower thing, growing where there is complete evil, yet, the writer's tend to forget...it is a town completely without magic, so how the hell could the plot device..uh I mean flower, grow there? And this flower (a flower growing where there is no magic) has the power to essentially break the Curse on an individual..you know, the biggest, baddest curse of all time which Rump worked for years to perfect that they needed a SAVIOR to break? Oh, well, that was in season 1 so I am sure the audience forgot about that! Note to writers...leave S1 alone and don't retrowrite it, I would like to let this show slink away with some semblance of respect and I want some part of my affection for this show to endure. 

Lets then move on to the much discussed idiocy of Snow and Charming. Why not go through that door, raise your kid to be a fighter, and then return to break the curse? They are afraid of what Regina could do if they left..here's a tip...kill her while you have the upper hand. I know these two morons would hatch the most ridiculous murder plot on earth, they would even consult Wile E. Coyote if he was in town (uh, no, he is not, that's Warner Brothers..) but say, by a huge amount of luck and scrapping together some brain cells, they could easily kill Regina...(I would throw in Gold but these two are lucky to get one score) and leave town to break the curse later. The town has a bunch of curse addled people who aren't exactly the biggest fans of their mayor and its not like they can all the Sheriff anymore, cause he is making wanna be dirty movies right now... Kill Regina, kill Gold, leave town, raise your kid..(though how they could adopt without social security numbers or any personal credit history etc is a problem that the show would not even bother to raise...) come back break the curse. The only reason anyone followed these two is that Snow was princess and Charms is pretty and , well, that was that...(the residents of the EF aren't any smarter then their leaders..)

We know Wile E. Coyote does live in town as Regina who must have gotten the tunnel bomb device from him. Whomever said that S1 was not Adam and Eddies vision were right..S1 Regina would never have used a dumb device like that...and did the Curse create such things with a manual for Regina should she would know where things are how to use them?

Nice message that this show gives; your romantic relationship Twu Wuv is more important then anyone else, including your immediate family. First Snow and Charms give up their daughter to be together...(even though one would be "asleep" and one would be in coma..)and then Emma of all people sacrificed her parents to go get Hook, who if we believe what the show tells us, as opposed to what we have seee...Hook is a rough and tumble realm hoping "pirate" who can take care of himself and before Gideon got involved, was slinky out of town with his tail between his skinny jeans.  Let hope Henry does not fall under another curse, and Emma has to pick Hook up from the dentists cause he is going to be out of luck.

As usual we have a "All Powerful Villain" who just stands around cackling about their evil plan without implementing anything, so we can drag the final battle out for more and more episodes. Why not have the Black Fairy actually try something...you know, evil and poof into Charms bedroom and try to smother him with a pillow...(I would love  a scene where she is holding a pillow and look around real quick, "Oh what the hell," and lays a big kiss on him before proceeding to attempt to kill him.) 

Which leads me to the only good thing about the episode and I can't believe that I am saying it but the Charming actor did really well with the "seeing Emma" scene. It looked like he was actually seeing her. Good job!
 

[HariboPeach]

9 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I know A&E love nothing more then blaming the victims for what happened and never the villains. 

Killian: I'm sorry, Emma. I should have told you what I did to your grandfather all those years ago. And I should never have even considered running away.

Emma: It's ok. I didn't exactly make it east for you to tell me the truth.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Delphi]

48 minutes ago, HariboPeach said:

This argument has gone round and round but I think someone mentioned above it depends on which glasses you view things through. Emma/KIllian 'ship glasses or Emma/Snow-Charming glasses. Since we're in a heavily biased Emma/Killian forum they'll be lots of agreement with the idea that she did what she had to do, but on other corners of the net there are tons of people who think Emma turned into a self centered jerk who gave up everything she used to be for a dude.

I'm much more invested in the Emma/Snowing relationship than I am Captain Swan and I really don't see that Emma could have made a different choice.   The Shadow Hook screams Neverland which is obviously a bad sign and the stroking of her face suggests that he was about to die.   Meanwhile,  Snow and Charming are going into a magical coma in a town with at least 4 powerful magic users who could try to come up with a solution for that or have Henry write them awake.   I think its a pretty black and white situation. 

[HariboPeach]

5 minutes ago, Delphi said:

I'm much more invested in the Emma/Snowing relationship than I am Captain Swan and I really don't see that Emma could have made a different choice.   The Shadow Hook screams Neverland which is obviously a bad sign and the stroking of her face suggests that he was about to die.   Meanwhile,  Snow and Charming are going into a magical coma in a town with at least 4 powerful magic users who could try to come up with a solution for that or have Henry write them awake.   I think its a pretty black and white situation. 

Eh, not sure if it's black and white because I can definitely see both sides. We, the audience, know he was about to die. His shadow was all 'goodbye my love' because we know he's about to die. But from their perspective, he's been gone a while, misses her, trying to get back, etc etc, strokes her face to let her know he still cares. Could go either way. 

[andromeda331]

5 minutes ago, HariboPeach said:

Killian: I'm sorry, Emma. I should have told you what I did to your grandfather all those years ago. And I should never have even considered running away.

Emma: It's ok. I didn't exactly make it east for you to tell me the truth.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

LOL! Yeah, that's pretty much the way it goes. Who cares that grandpa was murdered. Who cares that Snow's father was murdered. Who cares that Snow's mother was murdered. Or Charming's mother. Or anyone was murdered. Its really insane when you think about it. These are things that should be cared about and give the characters some development or something.  Are there many other shows where people are murdered and no one cares?

[ferretrick]

  20 minutes ago, HariboPeach said:

Killian: I'm sorry, Emma. I should have told you what I did to your grandfather all those years ago. And I should never have even considered running away.

Emma: It's ok. I didn't exactly make it east for you to tell me the truth.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

LOL! Yeah, that's pretty much the way it goes. Who cares that grandpa was murdered. Who cares that Snow's father was murdered. Who cares that Snow's mother was murdered. Or Charming's mother. Or anyone was murdered. Its really insane when you think about it. These are things that should be cared about and give the characters some development or something.  Are there many other shows where people are murdered and no one cares?

Scandal and How To Get Away With Murder. But those people are all so annoying it's understandable.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Waaay behind on this week.  So let's get to it:

• Now there's a True Love's pixie flower?  Oh, and Snow and Charming also had a True Love's Handshake.  Lol.  I can't even muster enough give-a-shit to give a shit.  All I can do is laugh at this point.
• I really wanted to see Emma sew Killian's shadow back on.
• Speaking of that portion - I expected Emma to grab the shadow for a ride back to Neverland to take her to Hook.  I think that would have been more interesting than the Pixie Flower of Love Portal.  (But then they wouldn't have had  - been able - to do the equivalent of holding hands and singing Kumbaya to thwart the Reaper Wraith....er wake Snow and Charming.  And why didn't Emma blast the Lost Boys with her magic when she stumbled through the portal?  
• I know: My questions are pointless.
• And now Tiger Lily is an ex-fairy who went to Neverland, but apparently didn't run into Tinkerbell, I guess (since that was conveniently not mentioned.)  That island's a lot bigger than it looked.  It's like Gilligan's Island how they keep finding bicycles and telephone lines on 'the other side of the island' or something. Maybe Season 7 we'll get MaryAnn and The Professor.
• The retcon with Snow and Charming leaving Emma alone at 10 years old is the worst.  But then, most people on this board knew it would be.  There was seriously NO evidence to suggest that if Emma had spent the next 18 years with Snow and Charming as a family she still couldn't have ended up The Savior.  None whatsoever and I refuse to accept the show's (il)logic on that.
• I think they are definitely setting up Rumple to sacrifice himself for the town/Gideon/Belle like he did with Neal.  Hopefully this time, it will stick.  (Although Gidiot doesn't seem much smarter than Neal, so who knows?)
• Still - overall it was pretty enjoyable, if I just ignore all the stupid.  Nice moments between Emma and Hook and Hook and Charming.  At least Granny, Geppetto and a few extra dwarves got cameos.  I did notice that August was no where around to share that Sleeping Curse Cup.  Some friend he turned out to be, huh?

[Curio]

2 hours ago, HariboPeach said:

Is Emma getting more beef? I don't see that at all. At all. Where did the idea that it was Emma's sole responsibility to fix Regina's mess come from? A solution was given to her and she had a choice how to use it. She chose to go save Killian. Regina had no intention of giving up looking for a sleeping curse cure, so again, I'm not sure where this is coming from?

I think you answered your own question here:

1 hour ago, HariboPeach said:

there are tons of people who think Emma turned into a self centered jerk who gave up everything she used to be for a dude

[HariboPeach]

6 minutes ago, Curio said:

I think you answered your own question here:

I didn't, your post said MORE beef. I was just wondering where you found that to be true. Certainly not in this forum? I think there have been maybe 3 people in total that don't think the Emma/Killian flower petal reunion was the best thing eva.