S06.E17: Awake

[Kktjones]

13 minutes ago, asabovesobelow said:

everyone's priorities were completely out of whack in this episode

Welcome to Once Upon a Time where a pregnant woman will ask you to rip out her heart and split it in half to save her husband. Or where a man will use his young son as bait for Pan's shadow to help a man he's just met. Or where a mother will lock her son out of his own house because she's sad she didn't get to kill her boyfriend's wife. The priorities and characterizations change from episode to episode based purely, 100% on the plot. It's infuriating, but you almost have to expect it at this point!

[KAOS Agent]

Did the writers even remember that if Emma dies, the curse ends? So if Snowing had gone and gotten her, it wouldn't even matter if that messed with fate because when Emma eventually died, as we all do, then everyone in Storybrooke would have woken up. Basically, they sentenced an innocent child to misery so that their subjects, who were living better lives than when Regina was running around razing their villages, could be stuck only for another 18 years rather than 60. And they didn't even remember the details of those years, so it's not like it mattered to them how long it was.

Also, I noted that Snowing saw Emma sitting alone on a single bed, but from Emma's perspective there were bunkbeds in the room indicating that Emma was just one of many either in a foster home or an institution. Makes it seem like Emma's life was better than it was. I will give the writers that this retcon was much more believably in character for Snowing than the eggnapping.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Once Upon A Time Takes Us Back To The Early Days Of Storybrooke

Let's hope it doesn't put you into a coma!

[mythoughtis]

Snow and Charming wouldn't have been able to raise Emma in peace:

Regina would have been able to come  after them - if they could cross over the town boundary then so could she.

Further, how were they going to live outside Storybrook?  Snow wasn't really a credentialed teacher and Charming thought he was still in the enchanted forest. 

Snow was coming through the portal with Emma, but they didn't know then that the curse would create Storybrooke as it became.  They couldn't  know when they woke up what going to Emma would do to the 'savior' timeline.  For all they knew,Regina would snap her fingers and kill Emma if they went to her. 

[asabovesobelow]

11 minutes ago, Curio said:

In Emma's mind, she wasn't dooming her parents to eternal damnation because she believed there would be another way to wake them. But I guess it's just the Charming Family way to utterly believe a plan is going to work and sticking to it. Snow and Charming didn't think of the consequences of splitting their hearts back in Season 3 and didn't think about their baby and the potential of him not even existing if the heart split didn't work. They also didn't think about warning Emma in NYC first and how this would affect her. They were willing to die and abandon their children just so they could be together again.

It always seems to come down to the writers choosing to ignore their own canon. Emma could have caught a ride on Hook's shadow back to Neverland instead of using the pixie dust, but the writers conveniently had his shadow disappear instead of flying back. Also, the pixie flowers have never been mentioned before...ever. Why not use one of the many portals to go save Hook and then have their TLK wake up Snow and Charming? Or even easier, why didn't Emma bother trying to TLK her parents?

Basically, in Emma's mind, she truly believed no matter what she'd wake her parents up eventually, so it wasn't as big of an issue to go save Hook in that moment. When Emma sees her parents asleep on their comfy bed and compares it to whatever situation Hook might be in, she has to choose who's more in danger in that exact moment. Not knowing anything about Hook's situation except for the fact that he had to rip his shadow out and take out his hook, his situation was probably more dire in that moment than Snowing's curse. If Hook's shadow delivered a message that said, "Everything's fine! Be home soon. XOXO," Emma would probably have used the dust on her parents instead. But if Emma used the dust on her parents and Hook ended up dying because she didn't choose to save him, then Emma again comes off selfish for choosing to save her parents who were in a sleeping curse instead of choosing to save her True Love who was actually on the brink of death. It's a no-win situation.

But how did she know Hook was on the brink of death? Because he dropped his Hook? Maybe he was being held captive, or maybe he was just lost. Maybe it was just a way to let her know he was trying to get back to her. Even if Hook had been killed, I don't think she would have been selfish in her motives; her parents were in danger of never waking up again, Emma is not an only child. She could only see what was right in front of her.

To your earlier point, it's all about perspective. I know the posts that disagree with me with receive likes and loves and right ons - it's the nature of this forum. If CS if the main reason a person watches the show, it's all wonderful and makes perfect sense and Emma deserves happiness so she did the right thing. If CS is not the big draw, then leaving your parents to sleep in a hellish fever dream for eternity seems like a really shitty thing to do. 

[Curio]

4 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Next, Regina and Zelena try the untested cure. Snow gasps so Regina interprets that to mean "if we don't find a cure by tonight, you will both be asleep at the same time." Seriously? You got a specific time line AND the potential outcome from Snow gasping and clutching at her chest? 

Why didn't Regina warn Snow and Charming about the very specific side effects of the cure? Isn't that why we created laws about medical companies describing the side effects of what may happen? Warning, side effects may include fainting, nausea, and falling under an eternal sleep. And why were Snow, Charming, and Regina cool with keeping this a secret from Emma when they were all on Hook's case a few episodes ago because he kept a secret from Emma? Hasn't Emma made it very clear by now that she hates people keeping secrets from her?

[Shanna Marie]

The more I think about the Magical Flower of Contrivance, the less sense it makes.

So, this magical flower was able to grow in Storybrooke even during the time when there was still no magic, and its magic worked. Regina being mildly bitchy was apparently enough evil to make this flower grow. And yet, we've never seen any more of these flowers in town during the time magic has been working -- none showed up while Cora was actively trying to be a Dark One, none showed up while Regina was setting up the failsafe that would have destroyed the town and killed everyone in it, none showed up while Hook was menacing Belle and plotting revenge, none showed up while Pan was in town and trying to create a new Neverland that would have killed everyone in town, none showed up while Zelena was plotting her time travel scheme to rewrite history while keeping Rumple prisoner, none showed up while Rumple was doing his cleave from the dagger bit, none showed up when there was an entire herd of Dark Ones in town, none have been popping up in Rumple's wake after he schemed to get all the Darkness for himself, none popped up when Hades was in town, none were following the Evil Queen around town. This town should have had a thriving Magical Flower of Contrivance Garden.

I think I could have bought it just showing up when the Black Fairy was in town as a way of showing how evil she was, but then there's that one that sprang to life while Regina was being mildly bitchy.

[superloislane]

1 hour ago, asabovesobelow said:

Emma chose her boyfriend over her parents, potentially dooming her baby brother to a life without his parents, the life she so often laments

Except Snow told her to do that because they had already taken so much from her and they didn't want to take him away from her too. They were finally putting her first. They knew Hook was in danger because of the shadow and that they would find another way to wake them up since they only came up with the flower halfway through this episode so it seems likely there'd be another way. And they were right since Regina even says there's another way 2 seconds later.  Considering Snow and Charming have put each other before their children several times before this (including possibly killing unborn baby Neal just to bring Charming back), I would absolutely hate it if Emma put them before anything else

54 minutes ago, asabovesobelow said:

ll so that she could get her boyfriend back.

Would it be better if he were her husband and not boyfriend?

[Noneofyourbusiness]

27 minutes ago, mythoughtis said:

Snow and Charming wouldn't have been able to raise Emma in peace:

Regina would have been able to come  after them - if they could cross over the town boundary then so could she.

But she didn't know where in the world they were. She'd have to spend 100% of her time chasing after them, and she'd have to abandon Storybrooke.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Inquirer]

35 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

Did the writers even remember that if Emma dies, the curse ends? So if Snowing had gone and gotten her, it wouldn't even matter if that messed with fate because when Emma eventually died, as we all do, then everyone in Storybrooke would have woken up. Basically, they sentenced an innocent child to misery so that their subjects, who were living better lives than when Regina was running around razing their villages, could be stuck only for another 18 years rather than 60. And they didn't even remember the details of those years, so it's not like it mattered to them how long it was.

It was only if Emma died within the confines of the curse, Storybrooke.  That's why Regina gave her the apple turnover "for the road", hoping that she would eat it and die outside of Storybrooke, which means the curse would never have any chance of being broken.

[iMonrey]

So Snow and Charming are finally awake, and Emma and Hook are finally reunited. Yet as I look at the episode count for this season, I see that there are five more episodes to go. Five. How on earth are they going to drag this Black Fairy nonsense out for five more episodes? Why does she need to lurk and menace and tease and taunt for another five freaking episodes? Surely whatever she is planning to do, she has been plotting for years now. Wouldn't the wiser course of action to be a surprise attack? Why give her foe ample opportunity to counter attack and counter plan? 

Five. More. Wow.

[Inquirer]

6 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

So Snow and Charming are finally awake, and Emma and Hook are finally reunited. Yet as I look at the episode count for this season, I see that there are five more episodes to go. Five. How on earth are they going to drag this Black Fairy nonsense out for five more episodes? Why does she need to lurk and menace and tease and taunt for another five freaking episodes? Surely whatever she is planning to do, she has been plotting for years now. Wouldn't the wiser course of action to be a surprise attack? Why give her foe ample opportunity to counter attack and counter plan? 

Five. More. Wow.

From what I hear about the upcoming episodes, four more episodes sounds totally appropriate.  But next week's episode is pure filler and pushes it into an unreasonable amount of five.  As I put it in the spoiler thread, who's bright idea was it to do such a thing? In the possible last season no less?

Edited April 17, 2017 by Inquirer

[Curio]

18 minutes ago, asabovesobelow said:

But how did she know Hook was on the brink of death? Because he dropped his Hook? 

The hook is actually kind of a big deal for a person with no hand. It's the symbolic equivalent of someone sending a severed hand as a cry for help. Also, it's established on the show that True Love™ connections can sense when another person is hurting or in danger, so it's not farfetched to think Emma might have had that gut feeling kick in. Charming had the same feeling with Snow and Regina had it with Robin.

Quote

Maybe he was being held captive, or maybe he was just lost. Maybe it was just a way to let her know he was trying to get back to her. Even if Hook had been killed, I don't think she would have been selfish in her motives; her parents were in danger of never waking up again, Emma is not an only child. She could only see what was right in front of her.

True, Hook could have easily just been hanging out with Tiger Lily without his life on the line, but Emma had to weigh the potential risks. When a school is sent a bomb threat, it could easily just be a childish prank, or it could be the real deal. When lives are potentially on the line, you go with better safe than sorry. While Snow and Charming were in a problematic situation, in that moment, their lives weren't on the line. A sleeping curse isn't death. It may have been described as worse than death in earlier seasons, but we don't even know if Snow and Charming go to the same fiery room in this new curse. In fact, this sleeping curse seems like more of an inconvenience than a terrible curse in Season 6. If it was truly that terrible, Snow and Charming wouldn't treat it like they're going off to their 9-5 work every day.

Because Emma knew her parents were still alive and asleep on the bed, she had to asses what she saw in front of her: in one situation, her parents are asleep and being watched over by the person who has been working on the cure for the curse; in the other situation, her True Love is stuck in another realm and had to rip out his shadow and give up his appendage to send a message. Emma has no idea what Hook's situation is, but it's probably not good. Because she doesn't know his situation, her mind is going to jump to the worst possible conclusion. We've already seen Emma jump to the worst possible conclusion just a few episodes earlier when she assumed Hook didn't love her, so Emma jumping to the worst possible conclusion (and the accurate conclusion) that Hook's life was in peril is a very normal reaction.

Emma wanted to build a life with Hook and wanted to marry him, so I'd consider it selfish if Emma was willing to let him die just to save her parents from a sleeping curse that has been broken numerous times before. What about Emma's potential future family with Hook? If Emma used the dust on her parents and Hook died, then the conversation would switch to, "Are you insane? Why did you waste that on us when your future husband's life was in peril? We were fine being asleep for a little while longer because Regina was working on a cure." "But what about baby Neal?" "Dude, we barely parent him as it is! Granny, Grumpy, Red & Dorothy, or even you and Killian could have raised him as your own. He wouldn't have become homeless."

Quote

If CS if the main reason a person watches the show, it's all wonderful and makes perfect sense and Emma deserves happiness so she did the right thing. If CS is not the big draw, then leaving your parents to sleep in a hellish fever dream for eternity seems like a really shitty thing to do. 

Fair enough.

[tennisgurl]

I swear, during the Heroic Poison Drinking Scene (this show makes me type the weirdest crap) Hook was like "a curse that can be lifted by drinking? Finally some magic I can get behind!"

There was actually quite a lot to like in this episode. I LOVED seeing old Dark Curse era Storybrooke, and actually being reminded that the supporting characters haven't all dropped dead off screen or something, more Snowing, who I have missed so much, and Tiger Lilly seemed pretty cool, she seemed fun to have an adventure with, and, of course, Captain Swan has been reunited and actually had a NICE proposal scene! Huzzah!

Really, if it wasn't for that stupid fucking retcon, this would have actually been a solid episode, even with the Black Fairy/Gideon nonsense. However, the idea that Emma couldn't be the Savior if she had her parents is absolutely ridiculous. If they wanted to make it a point that Regina would kill everyone if they left, they could have explained that better, and I don't think that's what they were really going for. It seemed like they really seemed to think that Emma couldn't be the Savior if she had her parents, which, again, makes no sense. Why couldn't just Charming go through the mirror then? All he was doing was laying around in a coma, which makes Snows idea seem even more jerky. "No sweetie, we cant go to get our long lost daughter, and NOW you get to go back into your coma for several years! Enjoy!" They could have given them a better reason not to go, say Regina showed up and threatened to kill everyone if they went, or they did go through, and realized they had no way to fit into the Real World and Emma was better off without them, or something like that. Something beyond "neither of us can walk through that door to raise our daughter...because!"

This episode also proves, once and for all, that for all this was marketed as some kind of intergenerational saga between women, Emma is SUCH a daddy's girl. I don't think they're trying to write Snow as a crappy mother...but they pretty much have. Look at her response to seeing her parents when they wake up. Big happy DAD, and just an awkward hug for mom. Even a few weeks ago, while Snow was getting wasted and playing with Vikings instead of comforting her daughter like she was supposed to, Charming actually had a conversation with her about it and tried to be supportive, even if he was stuck with more "grrrr, once a pirate always a pirate" crap the writers give him whenever they need conflict and want to forget that Hook and Charming are BFFs. Speaking of, Charming and Hook are friends again and Charming forgives him instantly because, duh, Hook isn't that guy anymore and hasn't been in ages, which is exactly how we all knew it would end. So glad we added that contrived retcon where younger Hook killed Charming's father. That sure did have a point.

This is probably a nitpick, but it made me a bit confused. If this version of Tiger Lilly is actually a fairy who has exiled herself to Neverland...why is she still dressed like a stereotypical Native American? Is there a tribe somewhere on the island we have never met, who she joined and assimilated into? Or was she always a Native American fairy, in which case, how does that work? Race has never been a Thing in the Enchanted Forest, so why would she be dressed like that because her actress looks Native American? Did she always dress that way, or did she start being a Magical Native American when she got to Neverland just because she thought it would be cool? Its not a huge deal or anything, and I will give the show credit that they actually casted an actress who "looks" Native American (I looked on IMBD, and couldn't find much about her background) to play a famous Native American character, unlike other, crapier versions of the character, but you have to have some context for why she dresses like a college girl at a culturally insensitive costume party and uses a bow and arrow.

Edited April 17, 2017 by tennisgurl

[RolloTomasi]

I will never understand this idea that exists on the show and in so many corners of fandom that Emma constantly prioritize everybody else ahead of herself. It's completely absurd. 

[Rumsy4]

I just finished watching the episode. 

Snow and Charming caught a glimpse of their 10 year old daughter and walked away from her. Sorry but this was bullshit. If they had caught a glimpse of baby Emma out in the streets, burning books to keep herself warm, would they have done the same? I'm afraid the answer might well be a yes. And I'm not cutting Charming any slack, becasue he always listens to Snow's idiocy. And they've been keeping this secret from Emma too. Add this to the Charming vault of secrets and lies. 

Hook and Tiger Lily in Neverland was the most interesting part of the episode. The vague Tiger Lily backstory did nothing for me, even though I liked the performance. Yet another failed fairy in Neverland? Gimme a break. These writers have zero creativity. How convenient that Tiger Lily should have a broken shard of the only wand that could defeat her former BFF the Black Fairy, and Hook happened to be right on spot to take it from her and deliver it to Emma. The contrivance fairy hasn't lost her wings, at any rate!

Snow and Charming put themselves under the split Queen's sleeping curse willingly to stop Regina from sacrificing herself. Regina could have stabbed herself to death and prevented that from happening, but she didn't. Emma was perfectly justified in using the pixie flower to save Hook when he was clearly in immediate danger. Snow made the choice to forgo breaking the Curse right away. In both cases, she had the "Hope" that they would find another way. 

The shadow-scene with Emma was cringey with the bad CGI, and the second proposal did nothing much for me. Everything was resolved way too fast (as expected). This half-season has almost ruined canon CS for me. It's taken most of the joy out of it (as with everything else in this Show).

Gidiot is still boring. Belle's back to one-liners. The Black Fairy is great, but as the Final Big Bad--not so much. 

All in all, this episode was all over the place, but I did manage to enjoy parts of it.

5 hours ago, RolloTomasi said:

I will never understand this idea that exists on the show and in so many corners of fandom that Emma constantly prioritize everybody else ahead of herself. It's completely absurd. 

Besides, technically, she prioritized saving Hook over breaking her parent's curse. It's like people forget Hook is a real live human being worthy of thought outside of Emma. Wait--that's actually not even true within the Show. 

[Camera One]

Did anyone understand the reasoning behind the "Cure" that Regina and Zelena were cooking up?  Something about removing the darkness from the hearts would break the Sleeping Curse?  Huh?  

There is no way that Rumple wouldn't have force-fed Snow and Charming the memory potion immediately.  They were about to jeopardize his century-old plan to reunite with his son.  

Josh Dallas really did a great job with his facial expressions in this one.  His pained look is really effective.  What a shame he has been wasted on this show.

[Shanna Marie]

How Emma had a pretty good idea that Hook was in immediate danger:

1. His shadow -- suggests he was in Neverland, which is not a good and safe place, especially for someone who has a history there
2. His shadow came without him -- if he could have come, he would have hitched a ride. If he sent his shadow without him, the odds are pretty good that he's not just chilling on the beach, in no danger, with other plans to get back to her later
3. The hook -- not something he'd give up willingly. Suggests that he tried to ride the shadow but was pulled forcefully away
4. The shadow's behavior -- the way it touched her came across like a sad farewell, not "I'll catch you later, babe." Add to the above items, and you've got reason to worry.

The whole thing rang of "desperation move." And thus the urgency.

I also don't get the hierarchy of love, where one relationship supposedly always trumps all other relationships. Do parents always have to come first over your romantic partner, regardless of situation? Emma's own parents haven't always put her first, even when she was a child. Why should she always sacrifice for them? Especially when the man she wants to marry is very likely in immediate danger and her parents are in a safe place, under the sleeping curse they've been under for weeks. The only difference with her parents was that they were now both under the curse instead of trading off. If Hook were the one under a sleeping curse but in a safe place and the Charmings were in possible immediate danger, I'd say she should save her parents before she worried about Hook. Ditto if Henry were sleeping and her parents or Hook were in danger.

The real blame goes to Regina and her Evil Queen half, since the supposedly good and redeemed and worthy of a happy ending Evil Queen neglected to mention this part of the curse when she supposedly told Regina all about the curse and Regina sent her off to her happy ending before the sleeping curse was broken.

[RadioGirl27]

37 minutes ago, RolloTomasi said:

I will never understand this idea that exists on the show and in so many corners of fandom that Emma constantly prioritize everybody else ahead of herself. It's completely absurd. 

All this talk is because Emma saved Hook. If Emma had chosen to use the pixie flower to save Regina instead of waking up her parents, everything would be fine and "Oh so romantic!" for the same people that it's attacking her for choosing Hook.

[Kktjones]

1 minute ago, RadioGirl27 said:

All this talk is because Emma saved Hook

Yeah, I hate to say it, but the people saying this are people that hate Hook. If you look at it objectively and know that one person Emma loved was in immediate danger vs. another person she loved was safe at home under a sleeping curse, it makes sense to save the person in danger. But people hate Hook and don't think Emma should ever prioritize him above Henry, her parents, her brother or anyone else. 

[Curio]

To be fair, if Regina was the one Emma had to save in Neverland, we'd be bashing her decision too. But then again, that would be the REC coming into play because Emma would be prioritizing the person who put her parents under the sleeping curse to begin with instead of saving the people under that sleeping curse. 

[asabovesobelow]

6 minutes ago, RadioGirl27 said:

All this talk is because Emma saved Hook. If Emma had chosen to use the pixie flower to save Regina instead of waking up her parents, everything would be fine and "Oh so romantic!" for the same people that it's attacking her for choosing Hook.

That's not true at all, just a projection. I may love the E&R dynamic, but if the situation presented itself in the same way, I would definitely assume that she'd save her parents. Even if they were romantically involved. All of the conjecture about Hook's danger is just that. There was nothing definitive about his situation; she could have easily used the flower on her parents and then all three of them could have gone to save Hook. 

5 minutes ago, Kktjones said:

Yeah, I hate to say it, but the people saying this are people that hate Hook. If you look at it objectively and know that one person Emma loved was in immediate danger vs. another person she loved was safe at home under a sleeping curse, it makes sense to save the person in danger. But people hate Hook and don't think Emma should ever prioritize him above Henry, her parents, her brother or anyone else. 

That's incorrect. I do not like Captain Swan. That does not mean I don't like Hook. They two are not mutually exclusive, although Hook hasn't had any kind of storyline outside of his relationship for a very long time. Of course she can (and should in certain instances) prioritize him, but in this case, it didn't make sense to leave her parents in an eternal sleeping curse to save Hook from *possible* danger.

[clairetvfanatic]

What "possible" danger??  He was about to be burned alive.  She KNEW he was in danger because of all the reasons listed above by others.  Why on earth would she even think for a second that he was okay??  Her parents on the other hand were NOT in danger.  They had Regina who was working on a cure which actually made me like her for once.

I'm personally really happy with this one!  I wasn't totally bored out of my mind and even rewatched certain scenes.  Its about damn time! 

[maryle]

Without having read the comments before giving my impression.

First, I decided to enjoy the episode without caring about the probable recon and yada yada... Because it was the last snowing centric ever. 

So I did loving it!!! In fact I got teary for some of the snowing scene, the little Emma scene and the cs Shadow scene ( even if I thought the CGI was bad)

I love the atmosphere of the episode, all the cameo( granny, the dwarfs, Archie...) I am among those who think season 1 was the best. 

I remembered that I loved to hate mayor Regina (kudo to Lana)

I felt the humanity from the characters and the overall episode. Loved that scene at the end. The community broke the curse not one person.

I still loved the BF and I loved Tiger Lily the actress had a very strong presence that embody the very well her character.

Loved the cs proposal, liked that both Hook and Emma talked about their issues. Here, again the scene felt sincere, genuine and raw. The realistic way both Jen and Colin choose to do their emotional scene has become my favorite things this year.  Even if the situation are fantastic or soapy the character always felt truth in the moment.

Now! I know the fandom will judge the episode from their respective corner but it's actually a big problem for Once at this stage. (The division) 

For me it was about appreciate the end of the show that so near. It is one episode I will be able to rewatch and they are a few. 

Now, I go read the comments.

[Curio]

8 minutes ago, clairetvfanatic said:

She KNEW he was in danger because of all the reasons listed above by others.  Why on earth would she even think for a second that he was okay??

It reminds me of a John Mulaney joke. "I was coming into my apartment building one night and I saw in front of my building a wheel chair knocked on its side with no one in it. That’s a bad thing to see. Something happened there. You hope it was a miracle…but probably not. Probably something worse."

[asabovesobelow]

3 minutes ago, clairetvfanatic said:

What "possible" danger??  He was about to be burned alive.  She KNEW he was in danger because of all the reasons listed above by others.  Why on earth would she even think for a second that he was okay??  Her parents on the other hand were NOT in danger.  They had Regina who was working on a cure which actually made me like her for once.

 

And I disagree that she *knew* he was in danger for all of the reasons listed above by others. She *thought* he might have been in danger. Didn't say that he was okay - but there were alternatives to get to him, and at that time, she didn't know if there were alternatives to the sleeping curse. 

Again, different perspectives. I suppose it depends through which lens the show is viewed.

[clairetvfanatic]

Regardless of the perspective, he was in danger and about to die.  If she hadn't gone when she did, he'd be dead.  End of story.  She made the right decision.  All worked out in the end.

[asabovesobelow]

^^^ It's a bit rude and dismissive to claim 'end of story' as though my opinion is not valid.

[clairetvfanatic]

I'm not talking about your opinion.  I'm talking about the fact that Killian was going to die.  Not like the Lost Boys were going to suddenly change their minds.  

[Curio]

7 minutes ago, asabovesobelow said:

but there were alternatives to get to [Killian]

I think the thing that bothers me most is how lazy Emma was in the previous episodes about going to save Killian because, yes, there were alternatives to get him. Many alternatives. The only attempt we saw Emma make to go get Hook was when she teamed up with Gideon and opened the door in the Sorcerer's mansion. It was like she was banking on Hook doing most of the heavy lifting to get back to her after the shell phone message. The very fact that Hook was separated from her and banished to another realm by the man who wants to kill her should have been enough evidence to prove Hook might be in danger—no shadows or hooks necessary. Emma assuming he was fine and dandy even before this episode is hard to believe.

So why didn't we see Emma trying to use mirror magic to make sure he was okay? Why wasn't Emma working just as hard as Killian was to get to him? Charming made a comment to Emma when she asked how her parents dealt with being separated, and he said something like, "Don't worry, I'm sure Hook is working just as hard as you are." If that were the case, Hook wouldn't be working all too much because Emma hasn't put in a whole ton of effort to contact him. It's more convenient that Emma just happened to stumble across a deus ex machina to rescue Hook than there was any meaningful planning on her part.

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

If they wanted to make it a point that Regina would kill everyone if they left, they could have explained that better, and I don't think that's what they were really going for. It seemed like they really seemed to think that Emma couldn't be the Savior if she had her parents, which, again, makes no sense. Why couldn't just Charming go through the mirror then? All he was doing was laying around in a coma, which makes Snows idea seem even more jerky. "No sweetie, we cant go to get our long lost daughter, and NOW you get to go back into your coma for several years! Enjoy!" They could have given them a better reason not to go, say Regina showed up and threatened to kill everyone if they went, or they did go through, and realized they had no way to fit into the Real World and Emma was better off without them, or something like that. Something beyond "neither of us can walk through that door to raise our daughter...because!"

 

Why didn't they do that? They could have easily shown or said Regina would torture the town or maybe built in something it the Curse to happen if Snow White ever left town. She was the target of the Dark Curse in the first place. Regina might be less concerned about Charming since he was in a coma but Snow? There's no way she wouldn't flip out over Snow going missing. They could have easily have Regina remark something like that when she was searching for Snow and Charming. Or they could have had Rumple say it. Tell Snow that if she left town there was a failsafe or something that would do something terrible to the town. Or maybe Snow would die. If Emma died the Curse would be broken maybe have it that Snow would die if she left town or the town would die. They already showed Regina ready to blow up Archie to see if Mary Margaret was Snow. It wouldn't have been that hard to add what Regina would do if her main target disappeared. Maybe Charming could have left town or they could make it look like he "died" or something and been with Emma.

[superloislane]

45 minutes ago, asabovesobelow said:

Didn't say that he was okay - but there were alternatives to get to him, and at that time, she didn't know if there were alternatives to the sleeping curse. 

Except they found 3 separate ways to break the sleeping curse other than a true love's kiss in just this one episode alone whereas they still hadn't found even one way to get to Hook and they didn't know any alternatives because Gideon was using magic to keep him away. It wasn't that he was just in another world - he was pretty much cursed to be away from her. There weren't any alternatives.

[Camera One]

29 minutes ago, Curio said:

It's more convenient that Emma just happened to stumble across a deus ex machina to rescue Hook than there was any meaningful planning on her part.

It has always been the case, but now it's almost impossible to see how many multiple deus ex machina, coincidences or random change of hearts are used per episode.

In this episode alone, here is an incomplete list:
- conveniently growing Pixie flower
- convenient Gideon finally deciding to help Emma a little
- convenient left-over Peter Pan magic in the tree
- convenient wand that Tiger Lily just happens to need to give to the Savior
- convenient fail-safe that Regina and Zelena immediately recognize, a second too late
- convenient let's-share-a-goblet solution to the sleeping curse
- convenient timing of Hook's execution, Shadow arrival and Snow's decision
- convenient place where Snow took a video of herself with the blurry flower in the background

Snow was clearly not videotaping herself in a forest clearing which means the Pixie flower was ALSO growing within the town, not just in a single field that Gideon obliterated.

[Camera One]

I forgot to add that in the flashback, a single Pixie flower broke the Curse for Snow AND Charming, AND created a portal to Emma.  Which meant a single flower could have broken the Sleeping Curse AND created a portal to Hook?  

[tennisgurl]

I really just don't get why the Black Fairy is supposed to be so damn evil, and I REALLY don't get where she fits into the previously established mythology, or, bigger question, why should we care? Suddenly she's the Ultimate Evil who Must be Stopped, but why? Why is she so terrible, as opposed to every other villain we`ve had? Yeah she enslaves and murders kids, which is really awful don't get me wrong, but its pretty standard fairy tale villain stuff. Hell, its not even as gruesome as Regina in her evil prime. I assume she has a plan of some kind, but all we know now is that she probably wants to kill Emma, which is ALSO evil, but ALSO standard fairy tale villain stuff. What about Nimue and the Dark Ones? I thought they were the Most Evil Evil that Ever Eviled? But the Black Fairy doesn't seem to have anything to do with them, so how does she fit into any of that? Is she unrelated? Is it just a coincidence that her son who she abandoned at birth just happened to become a Dark One? Of course, this is the Forest of Coincidence, so its fully possible that's true.

But my bigger issue, is that her and Gideon just aren't very interesting to me. They aren't classic villains, we haven't known about them before this arc, and, as it turns out, Gideon is basically just a puppet at this point, with her attempts at doing a long termed stalkhome syndrome thing not working, so he isn't really a tragic, insane villain, so we don't even have that possibly interesting point. We don't really know who the guy really is, or what he is actually like. It seems like his upbringing we spent all last week on didn't have much real affect on him. And the Black Fairy is just a typical cackling villain, who only works at times because of Jaimie Murrey and how much fun she's having. The only reason we would care about these two beyond any random one arc villains is that they're a part of the gigantic, convoluted Rumple/Charming family tree, which means we automatically have to be interested in them, despite not knowing anything about them before this, and not having anything super unique about them. Of course, knowing this show, Emma and Company will probably have a chance to kill or banish the Black Fairy, but wont because "she's family" or something.

[Camera One]

The dumbest thing about The Black Fairy in this episode was she gave Rumple back the Dagger and went with the "I trust you will choose to join my side in the end" blah blah blah.  She's just so evil, isn't she?  I guess we can tell because her plan is so convoluted she doesn't bother making The Dark One accelerate her plans since it's so much more important that he chooses to help.

As several posters guessed above, I think next episode, The Black Fairy will break that piece of driftwood from Tiger Lily in two and toss it into the fire, not realizing that the magical properties are heat-activated, and out of the driftwood smoke comes Merida to teach Gideon how to be a hero.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Camera One

[HariboPeach]

The pixie flower portal opener true love finder might be the dumbest thing this show has ever done. If they knew it existed, why weren't they looking for it when all the different villains over the years popped up? 

It was cute when Regina nudged Henry and walked away during the Killian/Emma proposal to give them privacy for their moment. Although I'm sure Regina was like WTF.

Black Fairy has had 1000 opportunities to take her revenge or whatever it is she is going to do, so when she goes down in a blaze of fuckery in five episodes, it's all on her.

[Camera One]

Alternate ending for this episode.

THE BLACK FAIRY:  It's time for The Final Battle. Muahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!  Come and get me, Savior!

She walks into the Mayor Office.  Everyone is under a Sleeping Curse.

THE BLACK FAIRY: What the...

Edited April 17, 2017 by Camera One

[andromeda331]

3 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Alternate ending for this episode.

THE BLACK FAIRY:  It's time for The Final Battle. Muahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!  Come and get me Savior!

She walks into the Mayor Office.  Everyone is in a Sleeping Curse.

THE BLACK FAIRY: What the...

LMAO!

[Shanna Marie]

23 minutes ago, Camera One said:

She walks into the Mayor Office.  Everyone is in a Sleeping Curse.

THE BLACK FAIRY: What the...

You know, that would have been the opportune time to do away with her enemies and carry out her evil scheme. But she procrastinated.

Something occurred to me about the parents vs. boyfriend dilemma (removing for the moment the possibility of imminent danger) ... We don't have bonds with our parents because of some magic involving the blood ties. We have those bonds because of history and proximity over time. That's how adoptive families are able to bond and function like families without any blood ties at all. Emma can't be expected to have the kind of bond with her parents that most people have. She wasn't fed by them as an infant, wasn't held and told stories and talked to and sung to. They didn't take care of her when she was sick, didn't comfort her when she was scared, didn't offer her advice and guidance as she grew up, didn't provide financial support. She met them as an adult, not long before she met Hook. So it's not whether she chose her boyfriend over her parents in the way that would apply with most people, with the people she's known since birth, with whom she has a lifelong bond, vs. someone she's only known for a year or so. It's three people she met as adults, all in about the same timeframe, two of whom are related to her by blood, but she may have had more shared experiences with the other.

Though I still think the key factor here is that she had strong reason to believe that Hook was in immediate danger while her parents were in a condition they've been in for weeks. Plus, it was Snow herself who told Emma which decision to make, and the show demonstrated that it was the right one, since Hook really was in immediate danger and they were able to save the Charmings soon afterward. I can't see that it's selfish. It was triage.

Meanwhile, every flashback of life in Storybrooke during the curse makes it more obvious that the concept of the curse was reverse engineered to get the desired result. They wanted to have fairytale characters living in modern America and came up with a way to make it happen rather than coming up with the concept of a dark curse and figuring out what it would do. As we saw here, Snow wasn't suffering that much. She was separated from David, but she was happy, cheerful, and content when Regina wasn't bullying her. Regina was still more unhappy than she was, so the curse was utterly pointless as a means of revenge. They also don't seem to be clear on what part of it, exactly, was the Dark Curse. The way they talked here, it was the memory spell that kept them from knowing who they really were that they expected Emma to break, but as we've seen in other iterations of the curse, the memory part wasn't mandatory. The core part of the Dark Curse was punching a hole through reality to create Storybrooke and uproot everyone. Even that doesn't look all that dark -- it's hard to imagine the ultimate villain creating a super-evil curse to create an idyllic coastal town in Maine where everyone gets modern technology and medicine and that requires the caster to give up more than any of the victims do. The caster has to kill the person they love most. The victims get given new homes.

[pezgirl7]

I really did not like how Snow convinced Charming to abandon Emma. He really needs to stop listening to her! Also, I'm sorry, but Ginny's crying face really took me out of the moment and just made me laugh.

Josh Dallas was amazing though. The way he looked at little Emma was beautiful.

*pics from here

[Camera One]

Quote

Plus, it was Snow herself who told Emma which decision to make

I think this ultimately is why I have zero problem with Emma doing what she did.  On a practical level, Snow could have pointed out that Emma would need Hook to tell her why that piece of driftwood was important.  But they couldn't add that in, because it's this show, so Hook knows no more than anyone else about how to defeat The Black Fairy with that piece of the wand.  

So what can we expect... three more hours of everyone twiddling their thumbs while The Black Fairy smirks and declares she's just going to wait for everyone to destroy themselves, oops, that was The Evil Queen.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Camera One

[Noneofyourbusiness]

18 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

The core part of the Dark Curse was punching a hole through reality to create Storybrooke and uproot everyone. Even that doesn't look all that dark -- it's hard to imagine the ultimate villain creating a super-evil curse to create an idyllic coastal town in Maine where everyone gets modern technology and medicine and that requires the caster to give up more than any of the victims do. The caster has to kill the person they love most. The victims get given new homes.

Which makes me think the Black Fairy created it because she wanted to get to and conquer the Land Without Magic.

[HariboPeach]

14 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I think this ultimately is why I have zero problem with Emma doing what she did.  On a practical level, Snow could have pointed out that Emma would need Hook to tell her why that piece of driftwood was important.  But they couldn't add that in, because it's this show, so Hook knows no more than anyone else about how to defeat The Black

What was she supposed to say? You have to use the pixie dust on us? The whole point was for Snowing to show how selfless they are. 

[Camera One]

4 minutes ago, HariboPeach said:

What was she supposed to say? You have to use the pixie dust on us? The whole point was for Snowing to show how selfless they are. 

Sorry, I'm confused.  I'm saying Snow could add to what she said to Emma.  That another reason she could give to Emma to convince her NOT use the pixie dust on them, but on Hook instead, is because Emma needs to talk to Hook to find out why he sent his Shadow to deliver that object.  That doesn't detract from the selflessness.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Camera One

[Noneofyourbusiness]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

Snow was clearly not videotaping herself in a forest clearing which means the Pixie flower was ALSO growing within the town, not just in a single field that Gideon obliterated.

They said those were petals that had blown into the picture; they followed the direction of the wind to the clearing.

[Camera One]

Just now, Noneofyourbusiness said:

They said those were petals that had blown into the picture; they followed the direction of the wind to the clearing.

Ah, I see.  I missed that line.

[HariboPeach]

1 minute ago, Camera One said:

Sorry, I'm confused.  I'm saying Snow could add to what she said to Emma.  That another reason she could give to Emma to convince her NOT use the pixie dust on them, but on Hook instead, is because Emma needs to talk to Hook to find out why he sent his Shadow to deliver that object.

I assumed you meant that you had no problem Emma choosing to the use pixie petals on Killian instead of Snow and Charming. If I was wrong I apologize.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

3 hours ago, asabovesobelow said:

And I disagree that she *knew* he was in danger for all of the reasons listed above by others. She *thought* he might have been in danger. Didn't say that he was okay - but there were alternatives to get to him, and at that time, she didn't know if there were alternatives to the sleeping curse. 

The hook was a pretty clear sign, and she did not in fact know of any alternatives to get him right then; they'd have had to improvise one. Remember, the usual ways they'd taken to travel between realms before wouldn't work because of Gideon's spell.

[Camera One]

Quote

ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: How did you react when you learned Snow and Charming did wake up during the curse?
JOSH DALLAS: It’s totally heartbreaking, and I think that goes back to that idea that they blame themselves, and he does a lot. He blames himself, “Maybe he could have done something different. Maybe she could have had a different life. Maybe she could have stayed in the Enchanted Forest. Maybe it would have been fine. She would have been that princess, and she would have had that life.” Yeah, I think that’s something he wrestles with a lot; it’s definitely something that impacts him deeply.
GINNIFER GOODWIN: It was hard for me to relate in real life because, especially now that I have children, I wholeheartedly, selfishly would have just taken care of myself and my immediate family, gross as that may be. So it was hard to find a more generous place in my spirit, but I found what Snow did to be of the utmost integrity and very Snow White-esque; very in keeping with her character.

It looks like Josh has developed a whole mindset of self-blame in his character, while Ginny admitted she can't relate.

I wonder how they *actually* reacted.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Camera One