S12.E17: The British Invasion

[RulerofallIsurvey]

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

For me it makes sense that she is trying to do that given she just fell out of the late 70s early 80s and she may have that mindsight that she is gonna do this hunting thing because YAY GIRLPOWER more so than "I am lonely and depressed but I'm not going to call my grown sons and try to connect with them ever."

IMO, if it was that clear we wouldn't be having these debates about what is going on with Mary and that is the fault of the writers for NOT giving us any insight into Mary's headspace.And unfortunately, IMO, Sam Smith is not a strong enough actor to communicate some underlying depression IF that is their intention.

I think this is also one of those areas, as others have noted, that having a younger actress (one who at least looks more like the age Mary is supposed to be) would help viewers to sympathize more with Mary and give the character the benefit of the doubt that she may be feeling some doubt/confusion/self-loathing/feeling lost/unable to connect with adult sons who are older than her, etc.   Nothing against the actress at all.  But she doesn't look 29(ish?) any more.  And that, most of the time, is a real disconnect for me.  

[catrox14]

Just now, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I think this is also one of those areas, as others have noted, that having a younger actress (one who at least looks more like the age Mary is supposed to be) would help viewers to sympathize more with Mary and give the character the benefit of the doubt that she may be feeling some doubt/confusion/self-loathing/feeling lost/unable to connect with adult sons who are older than her, etc.   Nothing against the actress at all.  But she doesn't look 29(ish?) any more.  And that, most of the time, is a real disconnect for me.  

That wouldn't make any difference for me though. I think Amy Gumenick is a better actor than Sam Smith yet if everything else was exactly the same,i.e. the narrative and the writing and directing was all the same, I would see it the same way. IMO, if the show wanted to really focus on Mary's confusion, doubt etc they have failed to spend enough time with the character other than showing her hunting and being at odds with the boys to  adequately put across a "Mary is not okay and doing things because she's not okay" narrative. YMMV

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I think this is also one of those areas, as others have noted, that having a younger actress (one who at least looks more like the age Mary is supposed to be) would help viewers to sympathize more with Mary and give the character the benefit of the doubt that she may be feeling some doubt/confusion/self-loathing/feeling lost/unable to connect with adult sons who are older than her, etc.   Nothing against the actress at all.  But she doesn't look 29(ish?) any more.  And that, most of the time, is a real disconnect for me.  

I've been able to make it work and I think Samantha Smith has been hitting a lot of nuance in her performances, but, yeah, overall it might've been easier to connect with the younger actress in this case.

It's funny, normally I find they cast actresses way too young for older female roles, but here, I'm advocating they go younger. Go figure? ;)

[MysteryGuest]

2 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I think this is also one of those areas, as others have noted, that having a younger actress (one who at least looks more like the age Mary is supposed to be) would help viewers to sympathize more with Mary and give the character the benefit of the doubt that she may be feeling some doubt/confusion/self-loathing/feeling lost/unable to connect with adult sons who are older than her, etc.   Nothing against the actress at all.  But she doesn't look 29(ish?) any more.  And that, most of the time, is a real disconnect for me.  

Yes, I think this definitely would have helped.  Amy definitely had that innocent factor working in her favor.  It would be easier to believe the she could be easily led by the BMOL.  Samantha is older and it just feels like she should know better.  And the contrast with Sam and Dean isn't really there like it should be.

[trxr4kids]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Isn't the whole point of Mary hooking up with Ketch to show how messed up Mary is right now? Just like Sam hooking up with Ruby showed how he was messed up in the head. And, when Dean hooking up with an Amazon unknowingly was because he wasn't in a good place mentally and didn't pause to take stock of the situation until after he hooked up with her. 

This show does love it's parallels, no matter how inapt they may be. ; ) I do think the Mary/ Ketch cup of sugar is writer shorthand or maybe shortcut, for see how messed up she is.

 

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

I will admit that part of my misgivings about Mary sleeping with Ketch is because of what I know about him, not necessarily what she knows about him.  She knows he likes to hunt and enjoys the kill a bit, but she seems to, as  well.  She knows he may or may not have killed that hunter, but I'm guessing that's not a deal breaker.  He was working for the Alpha Vamp and allowing humans to be killed, so she probably feels he got what was coming to him.

I wonder if she feels that way about herself, considering her deal and what the consequences were.

I wish the show had developed the character of NowMary more so that I wasn't left filling in so many blanks. Honestly it's like trying to do Mad Libs but you don't know if you need a verb or an animal. I'm going to borrow some optimism and assume there's a Mary focused episode that gives me more coming soon to a tv near me! If not there's always fanfic somewhere : )

[ILoveReading]

The thing with Mary is that I get the feeling that the show is telling us she and Ketch have been hunting partners since Mary signed up.  We've seen them working and training together.

On one hunt with Dean, he immediately figured out this guy was probably bad news because he saw how Ketch treated the vampire.

Mary saw him lead a man away presumably to be tortured and if Ketch truly is a psychopath, I don't see him changing his hunting style just because he's around Mary.  So she has to have some idea of the type of person he is just from being around  him.

[rue721]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, if it was that clear we wouldn't be having these debates about what is going on with Mary and that is the fault of the writers for NOT giving us any insight into Mary's headspace.And unfortunately, IMO, Sam Smith is not a strong enough actor to communicate some underlying depression IF that is their intention.

I agree that it would be great if they would give us more insight into Mary's headspace -- IMO that is sorely needed -- but I think they've also at least been clear that Mary is unhappy and that her head is not on straight. She's said as much multiple times, and her decisions have been pretty archetypal "downward spiral" stuff, right down to the self-destructive, degrading sex. I am really not seeing the "girl power" narrative. YMMV.

To me, Mary sleeping with Ketch while using BMOL intel/toys to hunt is pretty much 1:1 with Sam sleeping with Ruby while using demonic power to hunt. And I think she's in that downward spiral primarily because of her "survivor's" guilt over not being able to save her sons from their shitty world/lives, just like Sam's downward spiral was primarily because of his survivor's guilt over not being able to save Dean from Hell/death.

Her age doesn't really bother me in that sense, because in order for her decisions to be age-appropriate, I think she would have to be like 13-15 years old lol. But fine, lots of older people are self-destructive, depressed, naive, easily manipulated, self-involved, etc. Age =/= maturity!

Anyway, I think it's a pretty good idea for a storyline generally, except the show is making the same mistake with Mary that it made with Sam in S4 and S8, and showing the idiotic and/or unsavory decisions onscreen, while remaining exceptionally coy about the thinking (or even feelings) behind these terrible decisions. And I mean, I am OK cutting these well-beloved characters some slack and seeing how things turn out and forgiving them later and all that, but it would be more enjoyable and make for a better storyline IMO if the show would offer more (explicit) insight into what was actually happening inside their heads WHILE they were spiraling out.

9 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I think this is also one of those areas, as others have noted, that having a younger actress (one who at least looks more like the age Mary is supposed to be) would help viewers to sympathize more with Mary and give the character the benefit of the doubt that she may be feeling some doubt/confusion/self-loathing/feeling lost/unable to connect with adult sons who are older than her, etc.   Nothing against the actress at all.  But she doesn't look 29(ish?) any more.  And that, most of the time, is a real disconnect for me.  

I like SS, but I hear you. A younger actress would have made more sense given the storyline. Not just the emotional beats -- I'm thinking about how the hunting scenes would play differently with MG playing Mary especially. I can buy MG's Mary holding her own physically in a way that I can't buy SS's Mary.

1 minute ago, trxr4kids said:

I wish the show had developed the character of NowMary more so that I wasn't left filling in so many blanks. Honestly it's like trying to do Mad Libs but you don't know if you need a verb or an animal. I'm going to borrow some optimism and assume there's a Mary focused episode that gives me more coming soon to a tv near me! If not there's always fanfic somewhere : )

SING IT :)

[SueB]

Just for fun...

Questionable sleeping partners for Dean...

- "That waitress in Tampa, the one with the rash." Mention only, no visual
- A potential more-some with Crowley and some triplets.  Not confirmed, and he WAS a demon... but... Crowley is a questionable bed partner (not due to gender but due to him enjoying torture and killing so much).
 

As for Mary --

- I think she thinks Ketch likes killing monsters but we haven't had a scene where he's needlessly cruel (like Dean saw) and she sees it.  Doesn't mean it hasn't happened, just that it hasn't been on screen.
- I think she's rolling in the mud a bit.  She really had a bad stereo-type of hunters (that she's applied to the boys as well).  And she's fully immersed herself in the hunting life.  SHE said she's doing it for Sam and Dean, but there's more to it.
- I think Sam Smith has done a reasonable job with her portrayal.  Like the character Sam in S4, what we've got is a mystery going on here, so her actions are not all explained.  Now add that many of us are pissed at her treatment of the boys and she's become very unsympathetic.  Having a character written so mysteriously (and I disagree with those who think that the surface view is what we are supposed to get), doesn't make her a bad actress.  She's in a difficult spot IMO.

[Mick Lady]

On ‎4‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 7:36 AM, rue721 said:

I think (hope!) that @ZennyKenny was just joking about Ketch and Mary's hookup making her sick

Oh God Rue! I'm a sharp one aren't I? *goes to sit in corner, blushing*

[SueB]

Hey @Mick Lady, I wasn't positive either.  

[catrox14]

Just as an amusing  aside, I watch  6 or so you tubers who do reaction videos  of TV shows including SPN. It's a pretty diverse group of people in age, gender and race/ethnicity and to a person they were horrified by Mary and Ketch hookup. it was hilarious to see them all just go "Nooooooo." "Stop this " . Like they were all literally horrified and  actively pissed off. I laughed at every one of them being disgusted. One guy was so pissed he stopped his video, walked away, came back and ranted for a good couple of minutes about why it is a horrible writing choice. So I guess my point is that if the Small Sample Size is remotely indicative of a prevailing sentiment, viewers are not "warmly disposed " to that pairing.

[SueB]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Just as an amusing  aside, I watch  6 or so you tubers who do reaction videos  of TV shows including SPN. It's a pretty diverse group of people in age, gender and race/ethnicity and to a person they were horrified by Mary and Ketch hookup. it was hilarious to see them all just go "Nooooooo." "Stop this " . Like they were all literally horrified and  actively pissed off. I laughed at every one of them being disgusted. One guy was so pissed he stopped his video, walked away, came back and ranted for a good couple of minutes about why it is a horrible writing choice. So I guess my point is that if the Small Sample Size is remotely indicative of a prevailing sentiment, viewers are not "warmly disposed " to that pairing.

I'd be surprised if the writers' intent was for us to be happy.  This is just another step in the sequence BAD DECISIONS.

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, SueB said:

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

 

I'd be surprised if the writers' intent was for us to be happy.  This is just another step in the sequence BAD DECISIONS.

well I wasn't  suggesting otherwise. Just sharing something I found highly amusing. If they don't course correct with Mary ASAP her rep with fans is going to be ruined beyond repair. I  mean this isn't Sam or Dean who have built enough cache over the years for many viewers to give her a pass, like was given to Sam on s4 or Dean in s9.

LIke I said I just got a kick out of  just HOW pissed they were.

[ZennyKenny]

On 4/9/2017 at 7:36 AM, rue721 said:

I think (hope!) that @ZennyKenny was just joking about Ketch and Mary's hookup making her sick

Sorry yeah I was just being sarcastic. Nothing that exciting every happens to me lol!

[rue721]

9 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

Nothing that exciting every happens to me lol!

*frantically knocks on wood*

[Wayward Son]

On 10/04/2017 at 10:37 PM, catrox14 said:

well I wasn't  suggesting otherwise. Just sharing something I found highly amusing. If they don't course correct with Mary ASAP her rep with fans is going to be ruined beyond repair. I  mean this isn't Sam or Dean who have built enough cache over the years for many viewers to give her a pass, like was given to Sam on s4 or Dean in s9.

LIke I said I just got a kick out of  just HOW pissed they were.

And even then there are some viewers who have never forgiven Sam for the events of season 4, or Dean for the events of s9 and feel nothing but hate for that character as a result. And of course the Cas haters who have never forgiven him for seasons 4 and 6 are probably the most profilic in fandom. 

 

* As a quick aside. While I have strong negative feelings about Dean's behaviour in season 9 I do not hate the character overall. In fact he's been the most relatable to me since The Raid when Sam made his weird decision to suddenly turn "yay BMoLs" 

Edited April 12, 2017 by Wayward Son

[SueB]

12 hours ago, rue721 said:

*frantically knocks on wood*

@ZennyKenny  Quick. Throw some salt over your shoulder.  Just... trust me on this one....

[ZennyKenny]

On 4/12/2017 at 7:23 AM, SueB said:

@ZennyKenny  Quick. Throw some salt over your shoulder.  Just... trust me on this one....

Hahaha, I'll do that next time I make a meal.

Wait, I never add salt to anything... how about I throw a potato chip over my shoulder instead? Should have the same effect, right?

[SueB]

1 minute ago, ZennyKenny said:

Hahaha, I'll do that next time I make a meal.

Wait, I never add salt to anything... how about I throw a potato chip over my shoulder instead? Should have the same effect, right?

Should work!

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Second ep in my rewatch mini-marathon last night.  

• Once again, I was pretty disappointed that Horror Hogwarts was SO Hogwarts-ish, after that comment from Sam (equating Kendricks to Hogwarts) last ep.  I mean, the uniforms, the buildings, Mrs. Umbridge-Scrooge.... geez.  How about a little more originality?  Well, I guess the writers thought the test to pass their OWLS was the original part?  
• That gets even weirder the second time through.  I mean, Mick's little friend Timmy was going home for Christmas - except not now!  Merry Christmas, Cratchit family!  Have an extra lump of coal.  Where do they get their students?   Are the sons/daughters of current/former operatives?  So they know that they may not come home after being sent off to school?  Is this also part of the "code"?  In Mick's case, it kind of makes sense - they pulled him off the street so there was no one to call the police if he went missing.  And if they got all their students that way: from orphanages or the equivalent of the British DSS system, I could squint and give it a pass.  But dang...  How many kids 'matriculate' to the next level?  How do they choose which one to pit against each other?  Is it (un)luck of the draw?  Do they purposely choose friends?  (That's even creepier).  
• Ketch said that he and Mick were in school together.  Were they in the same class?  Obviously they never had to go all "survivor" against each other.  Are there different sections within each grade, so only a select few out of each section make it through that particular test?  Which gives a whole new meaning to Renny being 'top of his class'.  I guess he meant literally 'last man standing'.  
• Speaking of Renny: I wish he hadn't been killed off so fast.  He was kind of fun to have around just for people to make fun of.
• Herr Dr. Umbridge-Scrooge-Hess sure was quick to declare that the "American experiment" or whatever she called it, had been a complete failure.  LOL!  Oh honey - we ain't even got started yet.  I did pay particular attention to the fact that when she gave Sketch orders to hunt down and investigate all american hunters I think she only meant the ones with whom they'd been working so far though - because they were the 'unruly' ones.  And if found guilty, and as Mick said, when are hunters not found guilty, then they'd be killed.  Maybe she thought by making an example out of those hunters, future ones brought on board would fall more quickly and easily in line.  
• She also said to start with finding Eileen and killing her.  So I wonder how safe Eileen is, if she went back to Ireland?  I mean, Ireland's a much smaller country.  There's lots more places to hide in America - and then there's South America just down the road.  And Canada.  Heck, she could probably go up in to parts of BC and never be found.  
• Which then made me wonder about Canada...as in do they have their own version of the BMoL - or the BMoL itself - already operating there?  I know Canada is a separate country, but isn't Queen Elizabeth still officially the head of state?  
• Oh, and Herr Dr. Umbridge-Scrooge-Hess (HDUSH - pronounced "doosh" as the first H is silent) mentioning Lady Hopeshediesahorribledeath at least twice in this episode is bag full of anvils falling on our heads about that twit coming back.  Yippee.  Maybe I can volunteer to be her study partner for the NEWTS.

[Katy M]

40 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

• That gets even weirder the second time through.  I mean, Mick's little friend Timmy was going home for Christmas - except not now!  Merry Christmas, Cratchit family!  Have an extra lump of coal.  Where do they get their students?   Are the sons/daughters of current/former operatives?  So they know that they may not come home after being sent off to school?  Is this also part of the "code"?  In Mick's case, it kind of makes sense - they pulled him off the street so there was no one to call the police if he went missing.  And if they got all their students that way: from orphanages or the equivalent of the British DSS system, I could squint and give it a pass.  But dang...  How many kids 'matriculate' to the next level?  How do they choose which one to pit against each other?  Is it (un)luck of the draw?  Do they purposely choose friends?  (That's even creepier).  
• Ketch said that he and Mick were in school together.  Were they in the same class?  Obviously they never had to go all "survivor" against each other.  Are there different sections within each grade, so only a select few out of each section make it through that particular test?  Which gives a whole new meaning to Renny being 'top of his class'.  I guess he meant literally 'last man standing'.  

I hate the whole BMOL thing, so let me just say that right away.  However, I've decided that I don't think the death matches are something they do every year.  Just when they have a particularly wimpy student and a particularly willful student, they pit them up against each other. I just don't think they could keep it a secret from the students if they did even one match a year.  Word would spread. Students would run.  This is shown by Timmy being so eager to run (not that I'm blaming him, I would have been so out of there).  And, yes, I think they get their students as legacies, so if there was a 50/50 chance of your kid getting killed, there would probably be a mutiny, or whatever you would call it when members rebelled, didn't send their kdis to the school, and dropped of the face of the earth as best they could.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

27 minutes ago, Katy M said:

And, yes, I think they get their students as legacies, so if there was a 50/50 chance of your kid getting killed, there would probably be a mutiny, or whatever you would call it when members rebelled, didn't send their kdis to the school, and dropped of the face of the earth as best they could.

See - I thought about that.  But then, with the kids being indoctrinated to "the code" so early - and Sketch pulling the trigger on Mick without blinking - makes me think that the legacies (who have kids, not all of them would) probably don't think twice about sending their children to school there.  It's just 'what's expected'.  The British 'stiff upper lip' taken to a whole new level.  

[DittyDotDot]

Judging by Ketch's comment about both he and Mick surviving, I would guess they all have to go through some sort of test of allegiance to advance on. I don't think it'd be that difficult to keep it a secret from the other students because once they passed the test they would move on to the next level and no longer have contact with the other students. The kid who dies would just be waved off as moving on too, I would think.

I think it makes sense they probably get many of their students by picking them up off the street or from orphanages. These would be kids who don't have families to ask after them if they disappear and also kids who would be easier to get them to fall for their allegiance bullshit. You take a kid who has nothing and no one has ever given them a chance, give them a home and a purpose in life, they're probably going feel a great sense of loyalty to them.

The whole idea is very repulsive, but actually makes a certain amount of whack-a-do villainous sense, I think.

[FlickChick]

5 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Judging by Ketch's comment about both he and Mick surviving, I would guess they all have to go through some sort of test of allegiance to advance on. I don't think it'd be that difficult to keep it a secret from the other students because once they passed the test they would move on to the next level and no longer have contact with the other students. The kid who dies would just be waved off as moving on too, I would think.

I think it makes sense they probably get many of their students by picking them up off the street or from orphanages. These would be kids who don't have families to ask after them if they disappear and also kids who would be easier to get them to fall for their allegiance bullshit. You take a kid who has nothing and no one has ever given them a chance, give them a home and a purpose in life, they're probably going feel a great sense of loyalty to them.

The whole idea is very repulsive, but actually makes a certain amount of whack-a-do villainous sense, I think.

But if the BMOL are getting many recruits from the streets (and I agree with you that they probably are), then how in Guck's name can they consider themselves "legacies" and superior to the American MOL when many in their ranks have no blood connection as it was in America? And still is with a Winchester connection. And yes, they are sick, sick, sick.

[auntvi]

1 hour ago, FlickChick said:

then how in Guck's name can they consider themselves "legacies" and superior to the American MOL

Because only the officers are legacies? I know they don't have captains and sergeants, etc. but bet they have a hierarchy.

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, FlickChick said:

But if the BMOL are getting many recruits from the streets (and I agree with you that they probably are), then how in Guck's name can they consider themselves "legacies" and superior to the American MOL when many in their ranks have no blood connection as it was in America?

I'm sure there's a hierarchy. Ketch and Mick are probably "worker bees" while Lady Toni, Hess and the Old Men are probably legacies. However, we haven't heard or seen them talk about "legacies" like the American Chapter seemed to. Maybe it's an antiquated system that went by the wayside after the American MoL went dark?

[RulerofallIsurvey]

And the plot thickens!  Someone remind me: did the MOL know demons were real before Henry and Josie's time?  I wonder if the AMoL going dark is what precipitated a shift in the BMoL policy.  That is: they went from being a 'legacy' structured organization dedicated to study etc, etc, etc. who maybe used to feed hunters some information now and again (I don't recall them having much contact, or wanting much contact, with hunters previously - even in the Dorothy episode part in the past) to the twisted shell of what it is now: recruiting kids off the street and training them to be obedient hunters who they control.  Instead of studying to understand the supernatural, now they only study and research to build weapons to eliminate it.   

[DittyDotDot]

25 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

And the plot thickens!  Someone remind me: did the MOL know demons were real before Henry and Josie's time?

They seemed to know about demons. Abaddon was a demon and Henry didn't seem surprised they existed.

[Katy M]

10 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

And the plot thickens!  Someone remind me: did the MOL know demons were real before Henry and Josie's time?

They knew about demons.  Henry and Josie were sent to investigate possible demons at the convent in Mother's Helper.  Plus Josie was helping out with the "cure demons" project.  They also knew about angels as the spell that Henry wanted to use to go back to his own time required an angel feather.

[bettername2come]

They actually have a fucking Hogwarts. Only it's somehow even deadlier. I mean, Hogwarts at least has a less than 50% chance of death ( even if that makes no logical sense for Kendrick's, it seems like a possibility). I can't believe they screwed up the archangel birth order. I love Eileen, but did they change how they pronounced her name between seasons? Last season they pronounced it with a long A, yes? I know I'm not imagining this. Yes to Sam hugging Eileen. Yes to Sam hugging everyone. "I choose to do the right thing" are about the best last words you can hope for. I think Eileen going back to Ireland is a theoretically terrible idea. You have to figure she's closer to the majority of the people who would kill her. I mean, America's big. Many more hiding spaces, fewer BMOL. 

Edited September 29, 2017 by bettername2come

[Hanahope]

Kelly honey, you know you are carrying the child of Lucifer.  You really think you’ll have any say in it once it’s born?  If you’re even allowed to live, which apparently not.  Cas should have told her that tidbit when she still could have aborted it.

Agreed that the so-called code of killing a MOL isn’t very sustainable.

i guess Mick was an ok guy at the end.  Too bad.

Seriously Mary?  Ketch?

Guess BMOL like their hunters sociopaths and no conscious.  They would have loved soulless Sam.

[Katy M]

25 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

Kelly honey, you know you are carrying the child of Lucifer.  You really think you’ll have any say in it once it’s born?  If you’re even allowed to live, which apparently not.  Cas should have told her that tidbit when she still could have aborted it.

Well, apparently he didn't know that she would die back then.  Remember Lily Sunder.  He thought she was the mother of a Nephilim and very much alive.  The fact that she wasn't, doesn't change the fact that he thought she was and therefore didn't realize that mothers don't survive the birth.

 

26 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

i guess Mick was an ok guy at the end.  Too bad.

Whenever they have characters I start out not liking and then being to start liking, they kill them off the second I start to come around.  I feel like I'm complicit in their deaths, somehow.

[Hanahope]

16 hours ago, Katy M said:

Well, apparently he didn't know that she would die back then.  Remember Lily Sunder.  He thought she was the mother of a Nephilim and very much alive.  The fact that she wasn't, doesn't change the fact that he thought she was and therefore didn't realize that mothers don't survive the birth.

That's right.  Interesting that angels all had the wrong info about nephilims, but demons (or at least demon princes) somehow do.

[Katy M]

17 hours ago, Hanahope said:

Agreed that the so-called code of killing a MOL isn’t very sustainable.

Actually I was just thinking about this.  I bet the code is you have to killing every non-BMOL that kills a BMOL.  As the organization seems to encourage in-fighting and murdering, which in itself is obviously not very sustainable.

[hypnotoad]

So I have been slowly making my way through seasons on netflix and here I am near the end of season 12. Am I supposed to dislike Mary as much as I currently do? Lawd I hope she improves.

The British Men of Letters thing is stupid. Sorry but I find myself rolling my eyes every single time these sanctimonious idiots show up.

Why oh why oh why do I have to keep seeing Lucifer? WHY?!?

Edited August 11, 2019 by hypnotoad

[gonzosgirrl]

30 minutes ago, hypnotoad said:

Lawd I hope she improves.

Spoiler

She doesn't. She gets worse.

[hypnotoad]

gonzosgirrl: So disappointed to read that. I really wanted to like Mary but so far she is a big fail for me. Plus sleeping with that BMOL dude - uggghhh.

[gonzosgirrl]

48 minutes ago, hypnotoad said:

gonzosgirrl: So disappointed to read that. I really wanted to like Mary but so far she is a big fail for me. Plus sleeping with that BMOL dude - uggghhh.

It's all subjective of course. I'm sure there are some people who think she's just misunderstood.

[FlickChick]

21 hours ago, hypnotoad said:

So I have been slowly making my way through seasons on netflix and here I am near the end of season 12. Am I supposed to dislike Mary as much as I currently do? Lawd I hope she improves.

The British Men of Letters thing is stupid. Sorry but I find myself rolling my eyes every single time these sanctimonious idiots show up.

Why oh why oh why do I have to keep seeing Lucifer? WHY?!?

I'm so sorry to say: Welcome to the Dabb years. Good luck, because IMO, it doesn't get any better. 😞

[The Companion]

On 4/6/2017 at 8:05 PM, Jediknight said:

I loved seeing Eileen again, just please don't kill her.  Let her survive and her and Sam get together.

You know, I was enjoying this episode. I actually found myself smiling at the interactions with Eileen, And then it hit me that there is no way the show lets her live. 0. About halfway through, I came to the realization that she is almost 100% certainly going to die and I had to step away because I was preemptively pissed. Then Sam wrapped his arms around her and it was confirmed. They may as well bury her now. 

I hope I am wrong, but I would be willing to bet that she is a goner. And possibly Rowena. 

On 4/6/2017 at 8:06 PM, Katy M said:

If nephilism is always fatal to the mother, shouldn't angels know that?  Shouldn't they have realized Lily Sunder's kid couldn't have been a Nephilim if Lily was still alive? 

 

Right? This drove me bonkers.

On 4/6/2017 at 8:31 PM, companionenvy said:

Well, that was dumb. Entertaining enough, but dumb. 

 I don't believe every villain needs to have shades of gray. But if your villain is not a total psychopath who just enjoys killing because it is fun, they should have something approaching a rational motivation for his actions. "I killed person X because I wanted their job/money/spouse/" is not a sympathetic motivation, but it is a logical course of action. "I killed person X because he was a member of a minority group I hate" is a repugnant motivation, and not logical, in that bigotry isn't logical, but it makes sense according to the killer's internal, albeit warped, version of reality, which starts with the assumption that a certain group of people is lesser and perhaps dangerous. 

Ketch is, in that respect, a plausible villain. He does not actually care about saving people at all, and embraces the MOL because it gives him a vaguely acceptable outlet for killing things. Which he enjoys, because he is a psychopath. 

As of today, the MOL as an organization, on the other hand, is not a remotely plausible group of villains. Believing that monsters need to be killed, no exceptions is wrong, but it is a reasonable position to take. Believing that sometimes, humans who might interfere with the MOL's mission also need to be killed is less understandable, but still within the realm of rational human behavior. Believing that Sam and Dean Winchester are too dangerous to live is....personally upsetting to us, but, honestly, not  a completely insane perspective, given their track record.

Deciding to kill every American hunter is absurd overkill, and not a credible tactic for an organization that, at least ostensibly, wants to save lives. Barring some disclosure I'm now pretty sure isn't coming, the members of the MOL, by and large, do not think of themselves as villains. You can do plenty of villainous things and still convince yourself that you're the good guy, but I don't think there's logic tortured enough to get someone who has any pretense of the moral high ground to go from "these hunters won't work with us" to "every single one of them must be eliminated." If they were all actively working against the MOL, sure. If they were harboring monsters, OK. But the idea that because, essentially, you think someone is bad at his or her job and won't make nice with you, they should be on your hitlist, is snidely whiplash territory.

Having a policy of killing any person who kills a MOL in a friendly fire incident is idiotic. No army in the world, that I am aware of, has ever had such a policy, because it makes zero sense. It isn't a deterrent to others, because friendly fire is an accident. It doesn't protect your organization from the killer because, again, accident. In fact, it puts your people in more danger, because if by chance someone should discover this policy, you've just given anyone who accidentally kills one of your members a really, really good motivation for killing any other MOL on the scene. 

Having a policy of choosing your members by having two children fight to the death is SO CRAZY BONKERS BANANAS it really doesn't even bear further discussion. 

Ugh. All of this. It just kept getting crazier and more ridiculous. I thought the BMOL set up a fairly interesting contrast and then they decide to make them these ridiculously evil cartoons without any discernible motivation. 

On 4/6/2017 at 9:11 PM, Macbeth said:

 

So the one BMOL that was decent and enjoyable to watch was viciously murdered.  So he's out. Now we have a Band of Psychopaths.  It's not that they want to indiscriminately kill monsters - they have no problems indiscriminately killing humans.  In fact you can't become a BMOL without a human sacrifice.  Apparently someone watched TWD and learned all the wrong lessons - without any of the skill of that show's execution - pun intended.

 

Exactly. 

On 4/6/2017 at 9:25 PM, ahrtee said:

But Mary killed Lady Whatsit's psychopathic helper way back in ep. 1 or 2.  Nobody ever mentioned it (or her) again. (And yes, I just checked the transcript to make sure she was really BMoL and she did say she was "one of them," though maybe she was considered an expendable flunky?)  And: 

(from the Wiki:  

TONI: I have Sam Winchester. He's close to breaking. Just leave me be.

MICK: No can do. You disobeyed orders. Oh, and you should know, your Ms. Watt – quite dead. Courtesy of Dean Winchester and friends.

 

So both Toni and Mick knew that someone had killed one of theirs before they even showed up to rescue Sam, but Mick was still playing the good guy to try to recruit them. And even Lady T didn't say anything about the death of her assistant.  So much for the Code of "kill anyone who kills a BMoL immediately."

Fairly sure at this point they just decided to murder continuity and toss her body in a bathtub.

On 4/6/2017 at 10:42 PM, catrox14 said:

OMG This episode is so bad.

Lucifer said "My LITTLE BRO, Michael'.  WTF THE FUCK SHOW. Seriously, how is that continuity fail allowed to stand?  I just, WAT...Lucifer is the YOUNGEST. Michael IS THE FIRST BORN ANGEL OF THE LORD. WHAT ARE YOU DOING, BUCK LEMMING?!!

Or perhaps they blew continuity up with her mother.

On 4/7/2017 at 6:40 AM, Thriftykins said:

It bothered me too.  They've been trying to set up the British Men of Letters as villains.  At first they were more morally ambiguous because they held a rigid philosophy of "kill all monsters, no exceptions".  It can seem a little morally discomforting, especially since some people have monsterism inflicted upon them, but it makes sense.  A werewolf who became a werewolf against his will and doesn't want to kill is innocent, but so are the people he kills.

 

But last night, they just kinda turned them into over-the-top mustache twirling psychotics.  Turning children against each other and forcing them to kill? It's completely arbitrary.  How does a school in which children are constantly being killed for what is basically the amusement of some demented adults even function?  How do you do that to people and then try to take the moral high ground against vampires, werewolves, wendigos etc.,?

 

Plus, as was analyzed in a previous post, mandatory killing of anyone who kills one of their own even in a friendly fire incident is beyond stupid.

 

It's like the writers feared they might not be selling the Brits as plausible villains, so they cranked their villany up to an absurd degree.  Like trying to make pancakes, but you turn the burner up too high so you get these things that are burnt on the outside but gooey and undercooked on the inside.

Agreed. I was really disappointed.

 

On 10/25/2017 at 4:07 PM, Hanahope said:

Kelly honey, you know you are carrying the child of Lucifer.  You really think you’ll have any say in it once it’s born?  If you’re even allowed to live, which apparently not.  Cas should have told her that tidbit when she still could have aborted it.

Kelly willingly went with a demon without once thinking: huh, are they actually going to take care of me and let me be involved in this kid's life or are they going to kill me or discard me? Oh well, the demon told me that she was just misunderstood. I mean sure, Lucifer had sex with me without my consent, but surely it's all gonna be okay. 

On 8/11/2019 at 6:47 PM, hypnotoad said:

Why oh why oh why do I have to keep seeing Lucifer? WHY?!?

I am so sick of his face. 

 

As I noted above, I was enjoying this episode for the most part and then I ended up ruining the best part (Eileen) for myself by convincing myself they are going to fridge her. I was disappointed by the direction this episode took the plot. It is far less interesting to have the BMOL become a united organization of psychopaths.