Season 1 Talk

[Glory]

7 minutes ago, MsNewsradio said:

This bothered me a lot. There is no way that under the circumstances of the crash that his blood alcohol level wouldn't have been checked. Due to the nature of the accident they would have done a full tox screen to see if he had either alcohol or drugs in his system.

I think this was a case of "see what you want to see." Teenager with beer in the car? Left a big party? Obviously drunk, no need to investigate. The town that this takes place in was pretty economically diverse (it seemed) but also a bit sleepy and sort of old fashioned. I could absolutely believe there would be no investigation. Sad, though. 

[Kalliste]

I wondered that too but my thoughts were that although what he did was terrible it wasn't something he did to Hannah. However it did effect her quite badly so who knows. Although I suppose, then, why make it about Justin... Hannah was just as bad as him really, she was right there in the room and did nothing.

[DittyDotDot]

57 minutes ago, MsNewsradio said:

This bothered me a lot. There is no way that under the circumstances of the crash that his blood alcohol level wouldn't have been checked. Due to the nature of the accident they would have done a full tox screen to see if he had either alcohol or drugs in his system.

I think it's just that everyone assumed Jeff was drinking and no one bothered to investigate it further. TV tends to make us think the opposite, but I'd be surprised if every accident like this is investigated. I know they don't here unless there's suspicious circumstances or there are charges to be filed. They probably just filed a report of what they saw on the scene when they got there; noting the alcohol in the car and Jeff was returning to a party where alcohol was being consumed--probably noted the downed stop sign, too--and everyone just chalked it up to another sad story of teenagers driving drunk and moved on.

Edited April 14, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[MV007]

1 hour ago, Paloma said:

The rest of the conversation between Tony and Clay also made me wonder about the nature of the relationship between Tony and Hannah and how/when it began. In a previous "present time" episode we saw that her mother greeted him as if he were an old family friend or good friend of Hannah's, but I didn't see signs of Hannah having much of a connection with him in the flashbacks. Why would she have given him the tapes and entrusted him with the responsibility for making sure people here her story?

I read this as Tony has been helping Hannah's parents try to understand what happened or help them in their lawsuit.  At this point, we now know he was at the house right after the suicide so they may have been like "who are you and what are you doing here?"  In the limited flashbacks we've seen Hannah and Tony haven't looked particularly close but definitely cordial.

Edited April 14, 2017 by MV007

[MV007]

Clay finally opening up to his mom was one of the best scenes of the series so far for me.  I don't know how she didn't drop the case as soon as she got home.  There is no way you can represent the school and potentially go after your son's friend after she commits suicide.  Add on that she's putting the pieces together that he was in love with her and it shouldn't be a question.  I'm sure she'll come to her senses.

I don't think Hannah's inaction regarding the rape is excusable but she accepted responsibility.  At that point, thats all she could do.  

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Oh, Hannah. Doesn't everyone know not to put stuff on the roof of a car? Especially not a tall car like that! And why would you put stuff on your car so that you can call someone BEFORE you get in the car? I would put everything in my car and then call someone from the quiet of the inside of my car.

I was cracking up at Courtney's shocked, "How did you find us?!" when Tyler showed up to their little meeting. You guys are in what seems to be the only coffee house in the entire town. It's not exactly a top secret location. That's why it was even funnier that they were discussing Hannah, the tapes, Bryce being a rapist, etc. IN PUBLIC yet trying to shush Tyler or whoever didn't agree with them.

I was shaking my head over Marcus clutching his pearls at the Tyler's suggestion to "sacrifice" Bryce to save their own asses. As if they weren't sacrificing Hannah this whole time in order to save their own asses. I'm glad Alex was willing to tell the truth. And FINALLY people are starting to admit the truth! I was glad when Sheri called to report that she hit the stop sign. I am cautiously optimistic about Courtney being honest with her dad, but I'll withhold judgment until I get confirmation that she actually admitted anything to her dad. It was just galling that she kept insisting that Bryce MIGHT be innocent because she wanted so badly to stick to her "Hannah is a liar" story in order to deny that she was gay.

Justin's mom is so terrible, choosing her abusive boyfriend over her own son. I have no words. I'm surprised that Justin had a stash of money at his mom's apartment. I wouldn't leave a roll of cash anywhere near his mom's boyfriend.

Quote

Its a sad of affairs for this school when you have cliff hanger where a teenager has a bullet in the head, and it could plausibly be any number of characters who shot themselves.

But it has to be Tyler since he's the one who bought a gun earlier in the episode. I guess it could be Jessica since she knows the combination to her dad's safe. I want to know what other info Tyler has, damn it!

It was sad to see how gleeful Clay was about getting Bryce's "confession." At first I thought he had a gun and was going to shoot Bryce, but he was obviously trying to get him to confess on tape so that he could take it to the police, but I'm pretty sure that what Bryce said ("If you want to call it rape, call it rape") isn't enough to help Jessica or the Bakers or anyone. It's not really an admission of anything.

Man, every time that cut on Clay's head is on the verge of healing, he manages to get hurt again. Bryce was not fucking around. One punch would have sufficed but he really kicked the shit out of Clay.

Edited April 14, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[ElectricBoogaloo]

We aren't seeing Hannah and Tony's friendship because all the stories are told from Clay's point of view or Hannah talking about someone who did her wrong. Clay knew that Hannah and Tony had some kind of relationship because he mentioned in this episode that he was trying to figure out their relationship and he thought maybe Tony was in love with Hannah. In an earlier episode, Tony said that because he was the only guy who hadn't grabbed her ass or stared at her tits, she always came to him to talk complain about everyone else at school. That's why he didn't answer the door the night she dropped off the tapes and killed herself. He said that she could be exhausting. When she made that remark about his car at the college fair, it sounded like something that friends would say, so I buy that they were friends even though we haven't actually seen them spending time together in the flashbacks.

[Ripley68]

Also, at the school dance, Tony jumped her car for her - told her she should have called him sooner.

[Ripley68]

I'm assuming that Bryce has a tape coming up.  there are 4 tapes left...right (10, 11, 12, 13) She said there were going to be 3 stories about that night, but Justins' was first.  I understand her inaction at the party, she seemed pretty drunk.  We don't know how long after the party she killed herself - well, wait, its January in current time?  Maybe Jessica blew her off later if Hannah approached her with a "are you okay...?"

4 stories left....Clay, Sherry (she did say she's on there right, that's why he freaked on her?), probably Bryce and....?  Only guessing at this point, but I'm gonna say Mr. Porter.  The kids who have listened to them all aren't very respectful to him, and he gets pretty jumpy about stuff concerning Hannah...though at this point all I see is a counselor who doesn't know how to cope with teenage angst very well.

As for Clay taking it slow - after the first tape, I probably would have just listened to the beginning of each tape to find out if it was mine, than listened to mine, then gone back and listened to everyone elses.  Those who were first would want to know who else was on there and what they did, so I could see speeding through them that way.

I too want to know what Bryce has on Justin

[Paloma]

On 4/3/2017 at 8:53 PM, Anela said:

On 4/9/2017 at 10:11 AM, tennisgurl said:

What the hell, Tony?!?! Don't say that to him!

First of all: WTF, Tony?! Do you want another teen suicide on your hands? I know he asked, but geez. I know Clay has wanted everyone else to take responsibility for their actions, but Hannah herself said they were ALL responsible. Not just one person. 

Not only did Tony tell a guy who is already on the emotional edge that he (Clay) was responsible for Hannah killing herself, but he drove him to the top of a cliff to finish listening to that tape! And sure enough, a distraught Clay goes to the edge of the cliff and Tony has to talk him off the emotional and literal edge. Geez, Tony, couldn't you take him someplace safer to have the inevitable breakdown?

I was also angry at Hannah for making this tape because, even though she ultimately said that Clay did not belong on it, by making this tape about him and what she perceived as his rejection of her, she guaranteed that he would feel guilty probably forever. Having been a teenager girl myself as well as the mother of one, I completely understand how your perceptions can be off and how what seems like no big deal to someone else seems like the end of the world to you, BUT Clay did everything he could to show how much he cared about her and did not want to leave her alone. What was he supposed to do when she screamed at him to leave her alone and get out, especially since everything seemed to be so nice between them up to that point? He respected her wishes (unlike all the other guys) and did what she demanded, but she expected him to be a mind-reader and know that she really wanted the opposite of what she was expressing. 

[tennisgurl]

14 minutes ago, Paloma said:

but she expected him to be a mind-reader and know that she really wanted the opposite of what she was expressing. 

I thought some of her tape to Clay came off as a bit passive aggressive, even if maybe she didn't mean it to be. Yeah she said he didn't really belong on her Shit List and that he was a good person who was nice to her, but she also seemed to blame him for not asking if she was ok 400 times, or for sticking around even after she started yelling at him to get away from her. He did ask her what was wrong a good two or three times before, he left, what else did she want from the poor kid? She hated when guys were too aggressive towards her, and mad when Clay immediately backed off when she told him to? She had to have known he would have felt awful about what happened and blame himself on some level. Hannah, as bad as I felt for her, did seem like she expected people to be able to read her mind and figure out what was going on. If she ever just straight up told people (her parents, Clay, even Tony) how she was feelings, thing probably wouldn't have gone the way they did.

[Petrichor]

What the series - and the book - never say out loud are the words "depression" and "mental illness." Both make it clear Hannah is an unreliable narrator, but never clarify/spell out WHY.

The reason why; the real reason above and beyond Hannah's 13, is: Hannah is very ill with depression, a painful, debilitating brain disease that often prevents people from thinking clearly about their options in terms of getting better. Someone who is sick with depression can't imagine feeling better; not ever.

This goes double for young people, who lack the same kind of perspective, experience and brain development healthy adults bring to personal problems and general, even severe, psychic pain. To a sick child, who cannot fully grasp what death means, dying is preferable to another year of suffering in high school. 

Edited April 15, 2017 by Petrichor
Typo

[MV007]

Clay taking the tapes slow is completely understandable to me.  Hearing the dead girl you loved talk to you from beyond the grave is a lot to take in.  What is annoying, but likely the product of the TV show structure, is the constant threats to not listen further and the demanding that people tell him what the tapes say.  

[Mama No Life]

I've decided that instead of calling Tony Bruno Mars I shall call him Frankie Avalon because he hovers over Clay like a Teen Angel.  Does he sleep or eat or anything?

[Paloma]

13 hours ago, Kalliste said:

Does this mean the scene in the beginning where he apologises about the night before is after this night or after when he first saw her new hair? I'm a bit lost in the timeline.

I'm a bit lost in the timeline also, but I thought that the apology about not noticing her new hair was actually one of the fantasy scenes (things he wish he had said or done). But I could be wrong.

[Inquiry]

8 minutes ago, Paloma said:

I'm a bit lost in the timeline also, but I thought that the apology about not noticing her new hair was actually one of the fantasy scenes (things he wish he had said or done). But I could be wrong.

 

We actually got the scene of Clay complimenting her hair before he even got the tapes, so it appears to be real. I think it goes Clay and her at the theater scrapping gum off chairs, Clay mentioning the hair the next day (he said something about how he should have mentioned her hair last night) to Jessica's infamous party that night. I could be wrong, but I think it holds up. 

[Paloma]

9 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I'm pretty sure that what Bryce said ("If you want to call it rape, call it rape") isn't enough to help Jessica or the Bakers or anyone. It's not really an admission of anything.

Most of what Bryce said on tape was making it sound like Hannah was coming on to him or at least was going along with it, so I don't think that last "If you want to call it rape" statement would count for much. In any case, wouldn't the tape be inadmissible in court because he was not aware of being recorded? It's not like Clay had a warrant.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

If the story is supposed to take place in California (where it was filmed), you need two party consent so even if Clay had been able to get Bryce to admit to raping Hannah (which he didn't), the recording would be useless. But even without taking two party consent into consideration for the legality of the recording, what Bryce said is also useless. The way he said, "If you want to call it rape, call it rape," was along the same lines of someone saying, "If you want to call ketchup a vegetable, whatever."

One thing that I found really sad was Hannah said that Bryce raping her made her reputation as a slut true. It makes me want to cry when I hear even fictional girls tie their worth to their sexuality. It makes me even angrier/sadder/more frustrated that any girl would think that being RAPED is a negative reflection on her. The moment when Hannah realized that Bryce wasn't going to stop and she just went dead eyed and limp was heart breaking. She knew there was no way to stop what was going to happen.

[Paloma]

Although I think this was a powerful series that everyone should see--especially those who are teens, relatives of teens, and those who work with teens in schools and other settings--this article makes a compelling argument for the series possibly doing more harm than good: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2017/04/14/the-problem-with-how-13-reasons-why-treats-suicide/?utm_term=.8434f34af1a7  But despite the concerns expressed in the article, I still think it is important to have a show deal realistically with the issues of bullying, sexual assault, and suicide among young people. 

This is somewhat nitpicky, but I was really bothered by the fact that Clay's mother was the attorney for the school and did not withdraw from the case even after finding out that her son was involved and (even worse) that he would be deposed and she would prepare him for testifying. How was this not an obvious conflict of interest?

[MsNewsradio]

12 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think it's just that everyone assumed Jeff was drinking and no one bothered to investigate it further. TV tends to make us think the opposite, but I'd be surprised if every accident like this is investigated. I know they don't here unless there's suspicious circumstances or there are charges to be filed. They probably just filed a report of what they saw on the scene when they got there; noting the alcohol in the car and Jeff was returning to a party where alcohol was being consumed--probably noted the downed stop sign, too--and everyone just chalked it up to another sad story of teenagers driving drunk and moved on.

Typically, at least in my own experiences, when the driver of an accident is deceased their blood is automatically tested for drugs and alcohol, regardless of what the believed cause of the crash is. Looking into it further I see that this isn't the case for all states, so it is possible they could have foregone it depending on where this was set, especially due to the circumstantial evidence of the beer in the car. However, I also can't imagine based on what we saw of his parents that they wouldn't have insisted on a toxicology report. There would have definitely been an autopsy performed, and that request would have been able to be made at that time. Especially since their son would have been viewed as responsible for the injuries of the man he hit, I can't see the parents not wanting to pursue the possibility of "clearing his name" when the accident happened, or even for their own certainty and peace of mind, since they clearly still seemed to be wrestling with the idea of whether or not he'd been drunk. Considering everything this show got right, it just stood out to me. 

[Ripley68]

You know, I lied to my parents a lot, but I never lied to my parents as much as these kids do.  I also don't remember everyone being so shitfaced at parties.  I'm pissed they killed off the only decent straight guy (besides clay). 

[JustaPerson]

Tyler could go fuck himself with that whole "we're not that different" spiel to Clay. Like maybe Clay was scared to tell Hannah he liked her, but he wasn't showing up outside her window taking pictures of her. 

[Kalliste]

1 hour ago, Ripley68 said:

You know, I lied to my parents a lot, but I never lied to my parents as much as these kids do.  I also don't remember everyone being so shitfaced at parties.  I'm pissed they killed off the only decent straight guy (besides clay). 

I never considered that. I would say they lied to their parents about the same as me and my friends did. Maybe not about working on assignments with people though.. I assume the parents would have been fine if they just said "hey I'm going to x's house" but there were definitely things I didn't tell my parents I did.

And the first time I got throwing up drunk I was 14 and it pretty much progressed from there. There were never any drugs at parties I went to and my friend group didn't do them the way these kids do but there were definitely kids that did.

[JustaPerson]

Zach freaking out and staying silent is a bit understandable and he'll always live with that guilt (which is more than I can say about some of the others), but stealing her "compliments" because she rejected him was really shitty. 

Edited April 15, 2017 by JustaPerson

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Before I get into the final episode, I thought I should post this since everyone is talking about the possibility of S2:
Jay Asher on the possibility of S2

I didn't think the portrayal of Hannah's suicide glorified or romanticized it at all. In fact, I think that showing the entire process, how she was breathing hard as she willed herself to do it and then groaned in pain as she actually cut herself, took some of the romanticism out of the idea that you just take a warm bath and die. It's not a peaceful process. It hurts and you have to do it to yourself.

I understand that as a counselor, Mr. Porter has to phrase things a certain way, but he definitely made some huge mistakes. First of all, when he asked Hannah, "Did you consent and then change your mind?" I was like OMFG, SERIOUSLY? This girl had to work up the courage to admit she had been raped and you are asking her if maybe it was just a misunderstanding where she changed her mind? For fuck's sake. This is one of the many reasons why rapes are underreported - women see how other people are treated with disbelief or blaming when they try to report that they have been violated. Yes, that's right - try to make her doubt herself instead of helping her.

ITA that as much as Hannah and Jessica mocked the previous counselor who brought them together, I have no doubt that she would have handled Hannah saying she was raped much more sensitively. I certainly don't think she would have told Hannah to just move on.

I'm glad that the Bakers finally have the tapes so they will know what happened in the months before Hannah's suicide. And I'm glad that Clay skipped past Bryce and gave the tapes to Mr. Porter. No, it's not exactly what Hannah wanted, but do you think Bryce was really going to sit down and listen to 13 tapes and then bring them to Mr. Porter? Hell no! He probably would have listened to the first five minutes of the first tape, said that Hannah was a lying little whiner, and then tossed the tapes out.

Even though Tyler was a creepy stalker, I was fine with him telling the lawyers about Hannah's tapes. It was about fucking time that one of the Tape Twelve admitted their existence to someone outside of the guilty dozen.

I don't think that Tyler killed Alex and tried to make it look like a suicide though. I think he removed Alex's picture from the others because Alex was the one who kept telling the group that they needed to tell the truth, even if made them look bad. Tyler was the one who wanted Bryce to take the fall but Alex pointed out that hiding behind a rapist was worse than being a rapist (I don't know that I'd go THAT far, but I understand why Alex didn't want to go that route).

And even though most of them weren't 100% forthcoming during their depositions, Alex being so insistent that they tell the truth got all of them to be MORE honest than they had planned to be. If nothing else, he convinced them not to go with Courtney and Marcus's original plan of saying that Hannah was a needy insecure liar. Marcus, who was still a selfish DICK, even admitted during his depo that he hurt Hannah's feelings, which is way more than I expected from him (yes, the bar was set pretty low). I thought Zach did a decent job being honest about what he had done without pointing fingers at anyone else. He didn't tell the lawyers everything he knew, but he admitted that he hurt Hannah too.

So who gave the lawyers the picture of Courtney and Hannah? I should have checked the time stamps to see who gave their depositions before Courtney. Was it Tyler? In the previous episode when he told Marcus that he had lots of incriminating photos of all of them, I expected to see them at the end when he was clipping them up, but instead we just saw pictures of each person standing around at school. Show me the scandalous pictures, Tyler!

Although we have seen explicit remorse and guilt about Hannah's suicide from Clay, Tony, and Zach, I think guilt is a large part of what spent Alex spiraling. Clay blamed himself for everything that happened the night of Jessica's party including Jeff's death and Hannah's suicide and it almost broke him. But Alex knows that if he hadn't put Hannah and Jessica on that list, then Jessica wouldn't have broken up with him, started dating Justin, and then been raped by Bryce. It would be hard enough for him to feel responsible for that if he were over their relationship, but he said as recently as Jessica's party that he still loved her and wanted her back so he must feel doubly guilty about what happened to Jessica. He also knows that what he did to Hannah was shitty and that he is partially responsible for her spiral, so it's no surprise that between his guilt about Jessica and his guilt about Hannah plus the stress of keeping the tapes a secret would drive him to suicide as well. He was having stomach pains and I was convinced he was trying to kill himself when he initially dove into the pool a few episodes ago. And despite being accepted into the popular crowd, he never seemed fully comfortable with them. It seemed like he hung out with them purely to avoid being alone. He didn't seem close to any of them.

I was fine with the ending as is. Not everything needs to be tied up neatly in a bow. Clay gave his copy of the tapes to Mr. Porter, Tony gave a copy of the files to Hannah's parents, and Jessica told her dad about being raped (hopefully he will buy her a new bed now - I don't know how she can stand to sleep on it). No, we don't know if Alex will live or what will happen with the lawsuit, but I'm okay with that because life is like that. Not every storyline ends at the same time. At least this way I feel like there was an end to Hannah's story and people like Clay, Tony, and Jessica are beginning to heal.

On a shallow note, I was shaking my head for poor Brad. He's Tony's boyfriend but he got stuck sitting in the back seat with Skye so that production could get a shot of Tony and Clay in the front seat. I know it was done that way for aesthetics but in real life if your boyfriend makes you sit in the back so his friend can sit in the front, you might need to have a talk.

I'm glad that Clay decided to make an effort to be friends with Skye again. As an adult, I have found it's harder to find new friends. Two women I know said that the way they became friends is they were casual acquaintances until one of them contacted the other and said, "Let's be friends. For real. Can we hang out?" Sometimes all it takes is just making an effort to spend time together so I loved that instead of his usual meek/roundabout way of doing things, Clay was direct and just said he wanted to hang out. I also loved that instead of that nebulous, "Okay, we should do something one day," he said, "What about right now?"

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

This thirty minute segment gives insight into the production of the Netflix series and the importance of the themes of suicide, cyber bullying, sexual assault, and mental illness. Featuring interviews from the cast, director, writers, psychologists, author Jay Asher, and executive producer Selena Gomez.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Although it might be easy to dismiss this as a suicide/depression PSA, I appreciate that they took the time to make this post-series discussion. For parents who are concerned about their kids watching this show, I would recommend having them watch this half hour special. I'm glad that everyone involved in the show was concerned with treating the issues of sexual assault, depression, etc. with care and I appreciate that they brought in therapists to share their professional insight about the characters and storylines as well as the issues themselves.

[Paloma]

Agree that the post-series segment was extremely valuable. I recommended the series on my Facebook page and specifically said to be sure to watch the post-series segment.

[Paloma]

On 4/15/2017 at 5:09 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I understand that as a counselor, Mr. Porter has to phrase things a certain way, but he definitely made some huge mistakes. First of all, when he asked Hannah, "Did you consent and then change your mind?" I was like OMFG, SERIOUSLY? This girl had to work up the courage to admit she had been raped and you are asking her if maybe it was just a misunderstanding where she changed her mind? For fuck's sake. This is one of the many reasons why rapes are underreported - women see how other people are treated with disbelief or blaming when they try to report that they have been violated. Yes, that's right - try to make her doubt herself instead of helping her.

Initially I was more sympathetic to Mr. Porter, but the more I think about the meeting with Hannah the more I feel that he could have handled things better and done more to help her. He was apparently concerned about her even before she came in, so when she started expressing what a counselor should recognize as suicidal thoughts (or at least deeply depressed thoughts) he should have, at a minimum, talked about that explicitly and given her a suicide hotline number. I also think he should have called her parents and let Hannah know that he was calling them because they all needed to work together to help her. She might have gotten angry, but at least they could have kept closer watch on her. 

I think he was trying to be sensitive about the rape questioning, and saying "Did you consent and then change your mind?" was not necessarily him saying that she was not raped--he may have intended to lead into the idea that it is still rape if she said no at any point. But he clearly was not skilled in this line of questioning. Better counselor training might have helped, but this is another example of it being easy to see what someone did wrong but not so easy to say exactly what they should have done. For example, if I were the counselor I might have wanted to call the police and report a rape, but I doubt that anything could have been done if Hannah wouldn't give Bryce's name. He also could have reported it to the principal and vice-principal, but again, to what end?

 

One thing that seemed unrealistic to me was how Hannah kept up her appearance--nice outfits, perfect makeup, clean and styled hair (despite having been cut, the style was still kind of chic)--right up until the end. Based on both personal experience and what I've read as an editor of psychiatric texts, a common symptom in people who are clinically depressed and/or suicidal is loss of interest in hygiene and personal appearance. This was especially noticeable in comparison with Jessica, whose appearance and dress deteriorated as she spiraled (though this may have been more attributable to the abuse of alcohol and drugs). Hannah's continuing good looks may be one reason why some critics of the series (like the Post article I linked above) worry that it may cause other teens to copy her actions.

[Clanstarling]

On 4/3/2017 at 0:15 PM, tennisgurl said:

I did get a chuckle out of the teacher and counselor walking into the boys bathroom, and their audio "Oh GOD" reaction when the door shut. Its nice to have one or two funny moments in between all the sadness.

The schools around here have routinely painted over and/or replaced the walls with material that's difficult to write on, for a very long time. So it bugged me on that level, and also on the level that anyone who's ever gone to high school (or college) has seen this shit. Kind of like ancient twitter.

On 4/10/2017 at 5:25 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

But for the record, Hannah, Tyler, and everyone else needs to learn to close their blinds/curtains sometimes. I'm not doing any victim blaming here. I'm just saying that if your window doesn't face a brick wall, consider taking away a creepy stalker's option. And I say that as someone who once lived in a place where my bedroom window was right across from the dining room window of a family with three boys. I made sure to close the curtains every time I got dressed or changed. It's just common sense, people!

One of my pet peeves on TV. We see open windows at night even when it's not essential to the plot - and when the characters (such as, oh, spies, people who are being threatened, etc.) would absolutely close everything up tight. I also rejected a few houses when house hunting because my daughters' rooms would be at the front. I'm a wee bit paranoid.

On 4/12/2017 at 6:14 AM, Paloma said:

Yes! I kept saying this throughout the episode--couldn't believe how everyone left their blinds/curtains open at night with interior lights on. Of course, it is necessary for the plot, but it was still distracting.

Agree on the praise for the adult actors, but I'm having a hard time not seeing the principal as Vaughn Du Clark--he made quite the impression in that role!

Vaughn du Clark was just a blip for me, since I've loved Steven Weber since he was on Wings in the '90s (I don't think the show aged well, but if you can find it, Tim Daly, Tony Shalhoub, and Thomas Haden Church are also in it). So for me it's "Steven!" when I see him in any new role.

Edited April 15, 2017 by Clanstarling

[Clanstarling]

On 4/6/2017 at 9:48 AM, Winston9-DT3 said:

I only know him from playing Jack's son in Lost many years ago.  I kind of like him.  He has such a deep voice, and did even back then.  

I first saw him in Saving Grace, as Grace's nephew. He's one of those kids who grew up to look pretty much the same as an adult - just bigger. I like him too, and think he's doing a great job.

On 4/12/2017 at 8:59 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I always assume that whoever is on the team was chosen fairly because my high school brought in actual judges and D1 collegiate cheerleaders to select the team. Later in life, a girl told me that at her high school the cheerleader selection process consisted of the girls doing a cheer in front of the whole school at a pep rally and then the students voted. I was like whaaaat?!

My high school days are long since past, but I still vividly remember the cheerleading trials at one school (like Jessica, I was a military brat and went to many different schools). It was, essentially, a popularity contest. The girls did their routines, and the kids voted - on actual voting machines. It was weird.

Edited April 15, 2017 by Clanstarling

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I first saw him in Saving Grace, as Grace's nephew. He's one of those kids who grew up to look pretty much the same as an adult - just bigger. I like him too, and think he's doing a great job.

It's funny because I watched the first ep and thought, "That kid looks a little like the one who played Jack's son in Lost" and then felt stupid when I noticed his name and it was the same guy.  Of course.  

I'm on ep 7 and he's probably the main reason I'm still watching.  I'm still struggling with the pace.  Though the dialog has gotten less annoying, at least.  

[Paloma]

23 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

My high school days are long since past, but I still vividly remember the cheerleading trials at one school (like Jessica, I was a military brat and went to many different schools). It was, essentially, a popularity contest. The girls did their routines, and the kids voted - on actual voting machines. It was weird.

My high school days are probably much longer past than yours, but I also vividly remember the cheerleading tryouts as a popularity contest. I performed the routines well but was not part of the popular crowd that made up the current squad and helped the gym teacher choose new members. The interesting thing is that I made both JV and varsity cheerleading in college (where there was no "popular crowd" and those who made the decisions didn't know much about you), which kind of confirms my sense that the high school tryouts were based on popularity.

Although they didn't focus on the connection of cheerleading to popularity in this series, it was interesting that one of early aspects of Jessica's spiraling was her being benched from a game because she was late. Cheerleaders are expected to maintain a certain public image, even if they do a lot of stuff contrary to that image in private, and I suspect that she would have lost popularity if her spiraling eventually resulted in getting kicked off the squad. 

[Guest]

The compliment bags looked like something an elementary school class would do.  And even then it seems ripe for abuse and for kids to feel left out.  The whole classroom decor looked a little 'grade school' to me.  Which is doubly odd because the students all look well over 21, what with all the tattoos.  

I also think they did a poor job on Clay's head injury makeup and the other kid's facial injuries.  

The lighting change when it goes from past to present is interesting, though.  In the present everything is kind of stark and overexposed looking so much some of the people appear kind of yellow on my tv, though.

[DittyDotDot]

On 4/12/2017 at 10:59 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I always assume that whoever is on the team was chosen fairly because my high school brought in actual judges and D1 collegiate cheerleaders to select the team. Later in life, a girl told me that at her high school the cheerleader selection process consisted of the girls doing a cheer in front of the whole school at a pep rally and then the students voted. I was like whaaaat?!

I went to such a small school--like 100 students total--that it was like every other sport, pretty much anyone who wanted to do it made the team. As a result, we didn't have the mean competitive culture most larger schools have where there are too many students and not enough resources. The jocks were geeks and the geeks were jocks and instead of having to oust someone to earn a spot, you had to bring more people in just to make a team.

[DittyDotDot]

14 hours ago, MsNewsradio said:

Typically, at least in my own experiences, when the driver of an accident is deceased their blood is automatically tested for drugs and alcohol, regardless of what the believed cause of the crash is. Looking into it further I see that this isn't the case for all states, so it is possible they could have foregone it depending on where this was set, especially due to the circumstantial evidence of the beer in the car. However, I also can't imagine based on what we saw of his parents that they wouldn't have insisted on a toxicology report. There would have definitely been an autopsy performed, and that request would have been able to be made at that time. Especially since their son would have been viewed as responsible for the injuries of the man he hit, I can't see the parents not wanting to pursue the possibility of "clearing his name" when the accident happened, or even for their own certainty and peace of mind, since they clearly still seemed to be wrestling with the idea of whether or not he'd been drunk. Considering everything this show got right, it just stood out to me. 

I guess I just didn't find it all that implausible given all the circumstances. If Jeff had lived, it might be different because there might be criminal charges to consider, but since it looked like a fairly straightforward case of underage drinking I can imagine no one contesting the conclusion Jeff was drinking and moving on. 

I can totally understand the parents not trying to clear Jeff's name though. Sometimes that requires resources and stamina that not everyone has. It seemed to me Jeff's parents were struggling with trying to find a way to live with Jeff's death and move on as opposed to Hannah's family who were struggling to find justice for their daughter as a way to move on. I found it to be an interesting counterbalance showing how everyone grieves differently.

Edited April 15, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Clanstarling]

On 4/10/2017 at 7:00 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I noticed in the meeting with the principal and Clay's mom that the principal said there are two dead people, so I wonder who the other person is. I'm also curious as to what Jessica thinks Hannah lied about on the tapes. I know, I know, I will find out sooner or later (me: sooner, Clay: later).

That one threw me a little bit. So I tried to see if I could think of who we'd seen in the past but not the present - but given that the shifts are not only past and present - but mixed with a few hallucinations and "I shoulda's", I couldn't narrow it down. The person I thought it was (not saying who) had a serious scene in the present in a later episode, so I was wrong about that one.

[Clanstarling]

On 4/11/2017 at 7:09 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I really felt for the parents again in this episode. Hannah's mom is trying to hold it together while still trying to understand how she didn't know what was going on with her. Meanwhile Clay's mom is also trying to figure out what's happening with her kid. Have these parents already forgotten what it was like to be a teenager and not share everything with their parents?

I think you can remember, and still be desperate to try - given the circumstances. My feeling is that none of them were particularly intrusive with their teens before, and now they're frightened. I have gone through this fear with one of my kids. There's a point where you can't just shrug it off as moody teenagers, and you have to keep trying to break down that wall. I was able to get her to talk, at least obliquely, and she's gotten help. But that fear won't ever go away.  So I get the attempts to get them to talk.

[calliope1975]

I'm a power binger, but this was the first series where I had to take my time. I read the book years ago, an even though I'm 41, it still resonates. I've got long term depression and so while my circumstances aren't like Hannah's, I still understand her underlying feelings. This last episode made my stomach hurt. I don't think they glorified anything, and full TMI, one of the big reasons I've not been successful in my own attempts is the thought of what my parents would have to go through so seeing Kate Walsh's reaction made me sob.

I'd have to give the book another pass, but I remember being much more sympathetic to the counselor in the book. That he just didn't say what Hannah wanted him to. And while I had a smidge of sympathy for Mr. Porter, boy howdy, did he mishandle that conversation with Hannah. I get that he couldn't do much legally without Bryce's name, but I kept waiting for him to give her information on support lines or groups. He kind of mentioned that as she was leaving, but he should have led with that. But hindsight is 20/20, and I liked in "Beyond the Reasons" they talk about how he wasn't trained to handle such a situation.  

I also liked that Hannah had several unsympathetic moments. No one makes perfect decisions or has the right reaction all the time. She made a lot of mistakes, too. These tapes might have been a mistake and cruel, but they started some necessary dialogue.

Jessica broke my heart. I think telling Clay not to get rid of the tapes and the long look between them was her telling him to pass them on. I think she might have said more at the deposition, but she kept looking at her dad. Disclosing to family members is so fucking hard. I just did it, and it did not go well. But I think she couldn't hold it in anymore when her dad said she didn't look okay at the end and she couldn't keep it in any longer. 

I'm torn on a 2nd season. This was a perfect one and done story. But I'm also curious about Tyler and his seemingly planning a school massacre and if Bryce gets the consequences he should. However, seeing how these real life situations play out, I don't want to watch Bryce buying his way out of this and going to college like nothing ever happened. I'm also curious about what happens to Justin. But those are all little loose threads that I'm okay not knowing the answers to.

Finally, kudos to all the actors here. There were a lot of characters that my feelings flipped on, and that was due to the acting. This was some tough material, and while the series isn't perfect, it was very well done. 

[Clanstarling]

On 4/12/2017 at 7:19 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I don't think I'm assuming the worst when we've already seen that Justin told people he had sex with Hannah and then slut shamed her for it, or that Alex put both Hannah and Jessica on that list just to hurt both of them. We've already seen that these kids behave like jerks to each other. Giving them another anonymous way to be mean to each other seems like a terrible idea. I was really surprised that Hannah wasn't getting any rude notes from other students.

Zach, who is Mr. Popular, wasn't getting any notes in his compliment bag either, which he described as soul crushing, so it's not just the kids who need help who were feeling invisible as a result of the compliment bags.

Compliment bags are a nice thought, and I'm sure there would be plenty of kids who'd take that seriously and make an effort, but unless the teacher was planning to seed the bags with compliments, it's going to feel bad for someone. On the other hand, perceptions vary on what is, and is not, a compliment. (see the various reactions to the "best xyz" list.) So even well intentioned kids might hand out a complement that isn't well received.

When I was in high school, a teacher decided to do some kind of statistical thing (I forget the reasons, but they were to demonstrate some type of scientific theory), He had us write down who we would like to sit next to in class. Then he tallied it all up on the board. Naturally, a few people received the most "votes" and there were some who didn't get any at all. Sometimes teachers (who are, after all, humans too) can be absolutely clueless and not think the possible scenarios through.

Edited April 15, 2017 by Clanstarling

[Clanstarling]

On 4/2/2017 at 9:02 AM, Empress1 said:

The college fair bugged me (although as someone who's seen a lot of Law & Order SVU, I laughed when I saw a Hudson University pamphlet) because movies and TV so often get financial aid wrong. The college rep said something like "Our financial aid goes to students at the top of their class," which isn't how financial aid works. If she'd said "Our merit-based scholarships go to the students at the top of their class," that would be different. A small thing, and I get that they couldn't flesh out the very real issue of Hannah's family likely being too well-off for need-based aid but not well-off enough to pay for college in full, but it bugged.

I've kept a journal since I was in third grade. I don't even want them left behind after I die. The thought of someone not only reading them but ripping pages of my writing out and posting them publicly makes me practically murderous with rage. I'd have spit in his face.

The financial aid bugged me too - it wouldn't have taken anything to make it accurate. OTOH, maybe this is Hannah's conflation of two different obstacles to getting into the schools she wants (her grades, her parents not being poor)

I stopped keeping a journal after I was required to keep on in my first semester of college (one of those intro to college life courses). The teacher - without asking or warning me - read some of my journal to the class, a part that was specifically about one of the boys in the class. We were both mortified. I never wrote another honest word in that journal.

On 4/3/2017 at 7:02 AM, DittyDotDot said:

I don't think Ryan understood why she wouldn't want it published. Most writers write for the purpose of having others read their work, to Ryan he really thought it was a good poem and was giving her a chance to show how great it was to the world. I really don't think he had any malice in what he was doing, but at this point, a lot of Hannah's hurts are misunderstandings. She's assuming everyone's intentions were not pure at this point. I kinda took this episode to be where Hannah starts not being able to see other people's POV anymore. It's where she really starts to become isolated and alone.

Perhaps he didn't have malice, but the whole premise of the poetry group was that is was a safe space. Hannah blossomed in that safe space. There's really no excuse that's valid when Hannah told him many times over she did not want it published. I don't think there was any misunderstanding at all - she said no, and he did it anyway. He was wrong, in my opinion, from any point of view. (of course, given what I wrote about my journaling experience earlier in this post - I clearly share Hannah's perspective on that particular issue, your mileage may vary)

Edited April 15, 2017 by Clanstarling

[DittyDotDot]

7 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Perhaps he didn't have malice, but the whole premise of the poetry group was that is was a safe space. Hannah blossomed in that safe space. There's really no excuse that's valid when Hannah told him many times over she did not want it published. I don't think there was any misunderstanding at all - she said no, and he did it anyway. He was wrong, in my opinion, from any point of view.

Of course it was wrong, I wasn't suggesting it wasn't. Ryan should never have published the poem, it was a complete violation of her privacy, but I don't think he set out to hurt her. I think his intentions were to help her get over her shyness of sharing her work. Entirely wrong way to go about it, but he is also just a teenager himself and still learning what the right way to go about things are. Ryan's not past the point of redemption for what he did here, IMO. 

However, my point wasn't about Ryan at all, but about Hannah and her state of mind at this point and why I think Ryan was included on the tapes. IMO, if Hannah hadn't been stomped on so much by this time she might've been able to see that Ryan wasn't being intentionally malicious and shoulder this betrayal instead of adding it to the long list of reasons why one should never try to make friends or engage in life--you just get a sucker punch for your trouble anyways. 

[Mama No Life]

Quote

I do think Alex is a nice kid, even if did something really crappy.

He's not the only one. Zach is nice, Sheri is nice, Justin isn't always nice but I get him.  That's the scary part....these kids aren't all assholes all day every day.  But one minute of being an ass can wreck someone.

Just hoping that Courtney gets hers.....she is right up there with Bryce in my book.

[Clanstarling]

On 4/13/2017 at 4:54 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Now that I'm not a teenager, I can appreciate the parental/adult characters a lot more. When Clay was asking his mom about the hypothetical case, she kept interrupting him to ask things like "Is this why you keyed that kid's car?" SHUT UP AND LISTEN. I get that his parents know something is going on with him and they want him to talk about it but seriously, know your audience. If your kid isn't telling you stuff, is asking incessant questions going to get him to confide in you?

I know, right? When someone (your kid, or anyone really) starts opening up, you let them talk and ask questions when they're done.

On 4/14/2017 at 5:39 AM, Paloma said:

I also think that Mr. Porter has really tried to reach out to some students, but they keep stonewalling and/or lying to him. There is only so much a counselor or other school staff can do to help without accurate information. 

Porter gives me a bad vibe (or maybe it was just him tearing a sheet out of his calendar in one of the earlier episodes). The reaching out to students seems to me more about figuring out what they know. I haven't watched all of the episodes yet, but he gives me the creeps.

[Clanstarling]

On 4/13/2017 at 6:19 AM, Empress1 said:

My friend's student committed suicide at least in part over a bad midterm report card. He was 13. As adults, we know that a bad midterm report card in middle school means literally nothing. I'm in my 30s and I have no idea what grades I got in 8th grade, other than "good" (all my grades were good), and I can name at least a hundred people I know personally who struggled academically at some point and are doing well now.

It doesn't help that the middle schools sometimes foster the attitude that a bad mid-term report card will have far reaching consequences. I told my kids that it was bullshit. I expected them to do their work and make an effort, but a single mid-term report card wasn't that important.

Their high school made it seem like their choice of college was a life or death matter. As if you couldn't withdraw and start again at a different school.

Edited April 16, 2017 by Clanstarling

[Mama No Life]

I was sad for Clay and his suffering until he got to his tape, but I understood why he was included.  Clay was the one she knew would stir things up and he did.  It was the same reason the others were freaking about Clay...he wasn't one of THEM, he was an outsider, and they had no assurance that he would just listen and move on like they had tried to. And he didn't.  To me, her inclusion of Clay was Hannah's way of making sure that he had a chance to provoke responses and get some type of justice....she knew it would help him heal.   Without Clay's inclusion, Tony would have passed them along til Bryce, who would have destroyed them.  Yes, Tony had a second set but we can't be sure he would have shared them. Without Clay's involvement, I don't think he would have ever shared with the Bakers.   And while Clay did hurt for what he didn't do the first time around, this time he had a chance to act and he did, which I hope was her point.

[Mama No Life]

Where did you find this?  Not listed an an option on Netflix.....

[DittyDotDot]

It's separate from the show, @Mama No Life.  Do a search on Netflix for "Beyond the Reasons" and it'll come up.

ETA: Here's a YouTube version: 

Edited April 16, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Kalliste]

Yeah I get the feeling he's approaching them because he wants to know what they know as he's somehow involved. He's being too sketchy to just be concerned for them.

[Kalliste]

On 4/15/2017 at 0:25 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Justin's mom is so terrible, choosing her abusive boyfriend over her own son. I have no words. I'm surprised that Justin had a stash of money at his mom's apartment. I wouldn't leave a roll of cash anywhere near his mom's boyfriend.

I got the impression that the stash wasn't his. I assumed it was the boyfriend's and that he's going to be pretty mad once he finds out. Hopefully Justin isn't around when that happens. Although what happens with the subpoena if he skips town?

This was a hard episode to watch. With Hannah's dead eyes and Justin getting choked out to the beating Clay got. Probably the most graphic episode so far. I always wondered why Bryce wouldn't have a tape but I guess it was just that the others weren't telling him for whatever reason. Why do they feel the need to protect him from it all? Because he can bring them all down with him?

I also didn't see why it was the end if Clay passed them on. The initial threat still stands. Bryce has the most to lose you'd think so I would expect him to pass them onto whoever is last.

Did anyone else see Mr Porter circled on the sheet Hannah made? I wonder if he's our last tape and, if so, what he did.