S05.E05: Lotus 1-2-3

[Umbelina]

15 minutes ago, misstwpherecool said:

 

How did Mischa get the switch board again?-How much do they know about the network that got Mischa to the US? 

 

His calls/signals are being intercepted.  Before he gets them, Gabe and probably Claudia do.  So Misha used the code to contact Philip, but the phone lady, as ordered, didn't tell Philip, she told Gabe.  Presumably it will always be up to Gabe now what signals Philip receives, not sure about Elizabeths...

I should watch that part again for specific language.

Quote

Claudia is the career company girl. Same for Elizabeth. I think Gaberiel and Philip are using patriotism as a motivator for doing a good job. Cl & El are very calculating because the end game/goal has priority in their lives.

Claudia and Elizabeth are acting like loyal soldiers, following their orders, working for their country, and doing a good job, putting their own desires second to those of their country. 

Philip and Gabe could be viewed as emotional disloyal boobs who only selfishly only care about themselves and their own petty desires, not people you would want to have your back in a foxhole.

It all depends on how you look at it.  Interesting that the women are taking the traditional "mans" steadfast logical role here, and the guys are the girls in this tale.  (speaking of gender stereotypes traditions)

Edited April 6, 2017 by Umbelina

[RedHawk]

On April 5, 2017 at 11:29 AM, Joimiaroxeu said:

Also, were floppy disks in common use by 1984?

Yes, and here's how I know. Check out what the original die-cut sleeve of this record -- released in early '83 -- looked like.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Monday_(New_Order_song)

Edited April 6, 2017 by RedHawk

[RedHawk]

3 hours ago, misstwpherecool said:

How did Mischa get the switch board again?-How much do they know about the network that got Mischa to the US? 

 

He had been given the number and words to say in his mother's instructions. When Gabriel tells Claudia about the call he says that Misha used one of his mother's "old codes" (or maybe code names) and a signal for "an emergency meeting". (Remember how Basement Switchboard Lady had to quickly grab a codebook and look up how to interpret the coded terms Misha was using?) I'm not sure if she had been instructed to divert such a message from Philip to Gabriel or not but Misha was sure he was going to meet his father so maybe his mother thought the message would be relayed straight to Philip and The Centre would not know.

Edited April 6, 2017 by RedHawk

[Sarah 103]

On April 5, 2017 at 3:43 PM, tennisgurl said:

Wow, Philip would rather have flashbacks to his depressing childhood in Siberia then sleep with that scientist chick! Alright, that's not really what happened, I don't think. I think he was having a flashback without wanting to, and all this is leading to understanding something about Philips past, which has always been more mysterious then Elizabeth's. Its probably going to tie in with Philips issues now, and his increasing guilt over what he does, especially now that he killed an innocent guy over bad information.

Speaking of people I want to get a happy ending, does this mean Oleg is out of the CIAs cross hairs? It looks like it now, but I'm not sure. I feel like he isn't out of the woods yet, but I kind of hope he is. As beautiful as he looks when he looks miserable, he also looks beautiful when he's happy, on those rare occasions. Can you tell I'm kind of in love with the guy at this point?

The fact that he was having flashbacks/instrusive memories he couldn't control made me think this was something different. As you noted, it wasn't something he wanted to think about, it just started happening.

I want Oleg to have happy ending too. Oleg looks wonderful and sexy no matter what. I thought it was weird I had this crush on him, and then I found out I was not alone. 

22 hours ago, Inquisitionist said:

 I see your point about the difference in memory styles, controlled versus intrusive.  I'm just wondering what event could be more horrible than having killed a person. I guess there are such things, such as watching a loved one be tortured.  Ugh, I'm not sure I could deal with that kind of flashback. 

My guess it's something he didn't have control over. It's something that was done to him or someone he loved, but I'm not really sure how that would tie into what we've seen so far. Everything has been in that room, so it has to be something he saw in that room. 

7 hours ago, Silly Angel said:

As for Tuan, if he was assigned to P&E to deal with the agriculture situation, and there turned out not to be a situation, I don't see why he'd be reassigned and the Eckerts quietly have to "move" to Atlanta or some likely-sounding airport hub. Although with Ekaterina getting a new job, they might want to stay on the family for a while. Especially since I doubt the show would have toggled back and forth between the USSR and the US, grain- and food-wise, for half a damn season without resolution.

I agree with you and think the mission will change focus. They Centre will chalk up the grain mistake to bad intel, but they now have a prime source of information in Ekaterina and the Centre will be thrilled to take advantage of that. When the job is over, the cover story will be that the Eckerts are moving to another airport hub city due to a transfer. 

5 hours ago, misstwpherecool said:

Was it Ferris Bueller or the War Games kid that changed his grades in the computer system-in the 1980s

As others have said, both characters were played by Matthew Broderick. In Ferris Bueller's Day Off  (1986) Ferris Bueller hacks into the school's computer to change his attendence record. In WarGames (1983) David Lightman hacks into the school computer to change grades.

3 hours ago, Ina123 said:

I think Claudia could kill him without batting an eye, but I think he's safe with Gabriel for the time being.

Which is exactly how Elizabeth and Philip would react to a similiar situation. How is it possible this is the first season I'm realizing that Claudia and Gabriel are mirrors of Elizabeth and Philip.

3 hours ago, TexasGal said:

Didn't Ferris change his attendance record, not his grades?  <nerd out over>

That does not count as a nerd out. For it to qualify as a nerd out, you would have to say the name of the software or the type of the computer. I love John Hughes's teen movies. 

2 hours ago, ahpny said:

Henry's suddenly-discovered math/computer skills can go in many directions. While facility with higher math and programming is, and was in the 80's, quite sought after by intelligence agencies, those talents don't really help to do the hands-on type of spying that Philip and Elizabeth do. This is really about cryptography. Cryptographers, then and now, that work for intelligence agencies tend not to be the field officers, but people back in the home office. It is easy to imagine a long range plan to get Henry into the NSA and have him funnel selected information back the "Centre." 

Spy agencies need all types to make it work. You need people in the field and people in the home office. The Centre doesn't expect the all of the second generation illegals to be in the field. What they want is a source of information, so if that source of information is someone in admin who has access to documents/files, that's great. If it's someone who's a field agent out and about on spy missions, that's needed too. I agree with your last sentence. Henry having a job in cryptography at the NSA or any intelligence would be great for the Centre. They would have an inside track to all of the codes the NSA is using, and also know which of thier codes the USA has figured out. 

[RedHawk]

16 hours ago, J-Man said:

I'm confused about Renee's reference to "the Kings." As far as I know, there are no sports teams of that name in the DC-Baltimore area. In fact, the only ones I can think of are the Los Angeles hockey team and the basketball team that was in Kansas City until 1985, then moved to Sacramento. So is Renee from one of those places, and is it relevant? Not to be a conspiracy theorist, but Kansas City isn't that far from ... Topeka!

I was puzzled by that reference, too, and the only thing I could come up with is that DC has always had a lot of transient workers who come from other towns and cities and usually bring their sports affiliations with them. It's taken a long time for DC to become enough of a sports town that new-ish residents transfer their enthusiasm from their own hometown teams to the local teams. (Go Nats! Vamos, DC United! Go, Caps!) 

[Clanstarling]

4 hours ago, scowl said:

I have a degree in Computer Science and have been a software engineer for 27 years. I suck at math. I've never used calculus while coding and I once was laughed at by suggesting we use statistics to determine if our test coverage was good enough to release a product. 

My husband got his CS degree over 45 years ago (one of the vanguard) and has always said he's never once needed any of the math (advanced or not) required for the degree. Then again, he refers to himself as a software poet, rather than engineer. :)

[RedHawk]

5 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

I want Oleg to have happy ending too. Oleg looks wonderful and sexy no matter what. I thought it was weird I had this crush on him, and then I found out I was not alone. 

I would definitely give Oleg a happy ending. Ok, sorry. But yes, you are NOT alone. I'll bet Costa Ronin is getting as much fan mail as Matthew Rhys!

I didn't think that the young women at the Dating Game Dinner were being treated as playthings. They were attractive young ladies who came from "good" (connected higher-up) families and this was 1984 in Moscow. Setting up daughters was likely not so outdated back then. Plus, they all looked somewhat aware that their sell by date was nearing. Hey, if I had been shown a photo of eligible Oleg and told he was "lonely" and needed cheering up, I'd have put on my best dress and makeup and taken a seat at that table!

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

 I'm not sure if she had been instructed to divert such a message from Philip to Gabriel or not but Misha was sure he was going to meet his father so maybe his mother thought the message would be relayed straight to Philip and The Center would not know.

Gabriel said that he was monitoring all of Philip's messages, so I assume that Gabriel had told Joan that any message that came to Philip would have to be sent to him instead to get the go-ahead because Gabriel knew that if Mischa came to the US he'd be coming for Philip. 

Thanks to everybody who reminded me about War Games. I totally forgot about the grades thing in that.

1 minute ago, Sarah 103 said:

My guess it's something he didn't have control over. It's something that was done to him or someone he loved, but I'm not really sure how that would tie into what we've seen so far. Everything has been in that room, so it has to be something he saw in that room. 

8 hours ago, Silly Angel said:

The fact that he describes himself as remembering times when his father brought things home like clothing and food is partly what made me think of that old-fashioned adjusted memories thing. Like in the last ep of MASH where Hawkeye keeps remembering a certain incident with a chicken...

Not that I think that Philip's dad was really bringing home dead bodies or something, but it does seem like his brain's going specifically to his father bringing stuff home. Did he steal those things and get executed for it or something? Philip has yet to say how his father died. I suppose it's possible he didn't really die or something, like he was taken away like Alexei's father, but that's disagreeing with what Philip has flat-out said. Maybe his father was executed for stealing or something. He told Paige that his father was "tired" when he got home in the evenings. Here he certainly does seem tired, but Philip's specifically remembering these moments where he brings something home.

Interesting that there's no interaction between Philip and anyone in these scenes either. Like, it's not like he's remembering any interaction at all even to the point where his father pats his head as he walks by. Little Philip (and the other kid) don't react when the father comes home except in Philip's case to watch him closely. 

6 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

I agree with you and think the mission will change focus. They Centre will chalk up the grain mistake to bad intel, but they now have a prime source of information in Ekaterina and the Centre will be thrilled to take advantage of that. When the job is over, the cover story will be that the Eckerts are moving to another airport hub city due to a transfer. 

5 hours ago, misstwpherecool said:

But it does seem like it's got to keep up with that food focus, it seems, just because it seems so central to the themes with all these characters.

7 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

Which is exactly how Elizabeth and Philip would react to a similiar situation. How is it possible this is the first season I'm realizing that Claudia and Gabriel are mirrors of Elizabeth and Philip.

3 hours ago, TexasGal said:

In season 1 Elizabeth suggested that she didn't believe there could have been love between Claudia and Zhukov because Claudia was wasn't really loveable--in a way that seemed imply Elizabeth was talking about herself as well. At the time of course you sort of assumed that Zhukov was the mirror to Philip--Claudia did murder that guy in revenge for his death. But it seems like Claudia is an Elizabeth who didn't take a chance with her Philip.

[Sarah 103]

19 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

I would definitely give Oleg a happy ending. Ok, sorry. But yes, you are NOT alone. I'll bet Costa Ronin is getting as much fan mail as Matthew Rhys!

I didn't think that the young women at the Dating Game Dinner were being treated as playthings. They were attractive young ladies who came from "good" (connected higher-up) families and this was 1984 in Moscow. Setting up daughters was likely not so outdated back then. Plus, they all looked somewhat aware that their sell by date was nearing. Hey, if I had been shown a photo of eligible Oleg and told he was "lonely" and needed cheering up, I'd have put on my best dress and makeup and taken a seat at that table!

I was trying to avoid the innuendo of "happy ending" and mentally said the hell with it and typed it anyway. I'll bet Costa Ronin is getting more fan mail then Matthew Rhys. It could be a situation where different types appeal to different people. 

17 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

The fact that he describes himself as remembering times when his father brought things home like clothing and food is partly what made me think of that old-fashioned adjusted memories thing. Like in the last ep of MASH where Hawkeye keeps remembering a certain incident with a chicken...

But it seems like Claudia is an Elizabeth who didn't take a chance with her Philip.

The finale of M*A*S*H is part of what made me think PTSD in the first place, although the possibility of adjusted memories didn't even cross my mind until you mentioned it. Hawkeye didn't have the intrusive memories, but the story being told in fragments reminded me of the M*A*S*H finale. (Also to get technical, Hawkeye had something more like shell shock. The symptoms were too immediate for him to have PTSD, and he was still in the war zone). The fact that the bus was the central focus and it was clear horrible something happened there makes me think the tiny room plays a similiar role in Philip's story. In the M*A*S*H finale Hakweye had Sidney helping him, forcing him to remember the truth. Philip doesn't have someone filling that role. 

I think your comment about Claudia is fascinating. I wonder what it means for the future. 

[RedHawk]

18 hours ago, magemaud said:

I thought Philip in his beard and glasses disguise (when he was tailing Renee) looked just like the EST lecturer! 

 

Philip has to get disguise inspiration from somewhere!

[RedHawk]

23 hours ago, jjj said:

I thought they were *rotted" potatoes. (image of actual Russian rotted potato) 

I thought so, too, and that we'd see them digging out the meager edible bites. Then I realized it was some sort of brown bread. Which takes us back to wheat...

[RedHawk]

On April 5, 2017 at 9:59 AM, MissBluxom said:

If you were a travel agent in Washington D.C., how would you feel if some very young man came into your office and in halting English said, "Hello. My name is Mischa and I am looking for my father. Maybe it could be that you are my father? Do you think that you could be my father?"

I feel sure that Misha's mother (finally remembered her name, Irina) told him not only Philip's real Russian name but also "Philip Jennings". So it's possible that Misha could call different travel agencies and ask for Philip Jennings without arousing TOO much suspicion. He knows that once Philip is on the line he can speak Russian to him. 

[scowl]

1 hour ago, RedHawk said:

He had been given the number and words to say in his mother's instructions. When Gabriel tells Claudia about the call he says that Misha used one of his mother's "old codes" (or maybe code names) and a signal for "an emergency meeting". 

I didn't even know that Phillip's mother had been a spy. The scenes in Russian usually don't stick in my brain for very long.

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

His calls/signals are being intercepted.  Before he gets them, Gabe and probably Claudia do.  So Misha used the code to contact Philip, but the phone lady, as ordered, didn't tell Philip, she told Gabe.

Yep. Though, of course, it doesn't make any more sense than anything else about the KGB's magical telecommunications system. How in the world would Irina have a working number for the switchboard, considering that after she defected, Larrick compromised the system, George fried it all just before he died, and it had to be reconstituted under new management? Did they really go to the trouble of setting up the same number that, for all they know, had been sniffed out by a CIA operative and stuck on a watch list somewhere?

[Umbelina]

4 minutes ago, scowl said:

I didn't even know that Phillip's mother had been a spy. The scenes in Russian usually don't stick in my brain for very long.

Misha's mother was a spy, not Philip's.

4 minutes ago, Dev F said:

Yep. Though, of course, it doesn't make any more sense than anything else about the KGB's magical telecommunications system. How in the world would Irina have a working number for the switchboard, considering that after she defected, Larrick compromised the system, George fried it all just before he died, and it had to be reconstituted under new management? Did they really go to the trouble of setting up the same number that, for all they know, had been sniffed out by a CIA operative and stuck on a watch list somewhere?

Good point.  However, KGB could have done a B and E at the phone company I suppose, and rerouted the old number to be answered at the new number as well.  The tech was pretty simple back then I imagine.  They may have had an agent or two in the wind, or done it specifically in case Misha's mom tried to make contact with Philip again?

[scowl]

Just now, Umbelina said:

Misha's mother was a spy, not Philip's.

I think I need to review some episodes. If someone is speaking Russian I usually have no idea who they are.

[SlackerInc]

16 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

I don't think Tuan is on secondment from a Vietnamese Spy Agency, I'm certain he works for the USSR. 

I think the opposite.

3 hours ago, ahpny said:

Modems existed at this time, but they were rare, crude and required physically placing a telephone receiver into cradle with a sleeve.

My parents bought a home computer in the '82-'83 school year (an original IBM PC with 64K of RAM),  and it had a 300 baud modem (1200 baud was also available for an additional cost) that just used the phone cord plugged directly into it.  No cradle.

(A couple years later, although I had no idea how to actually hack into a remote computer, I made a BASIC program that simulated the sounds of the modem calling, including a dial tone and the high-pitched noise after the other computer picks up.  I had stored by own grades and my sister's grades in memory and tricked her and my parents into thinking I was going in and changing them.  It was a blast.)

[RedHawk]

On April 5, 2017 at 0:47 PM, teddysmom said:

Also, someone please explain the floor plans of these houses! The interiors and exteriors do not match at all.  What's happening here? 

Like the thing with the outside scenes not matching the season (trees with green leaves in February, etc.) I have totally given up on figuring out the houses. The Jennings house exterior simply does not match the interior. Hey, maybe that means something! ;-)

I do like how they and Stan live in houses with the same floor plan, another intentional mirroring that's fun to watch, like when Sandra took so much stuff and Stan's house became so empty and bachelor-pad-like while the Jennings' is full and homey.

Edited April 6, 2017 by RedHawk

[RedHawk]

I think that Elizabeth could not help actually liking Granola Guy (Ben). In the previous episode where she and Philip were in bed discussing their "marks" and how they were getting on with them, she described Ben and he said, "You like him." She said something about how sickening it was that he was laughing and joking while working to starve people. But he's a likable guy with mad s'mores skills and I think he got to her a bit. I know he seems kinda cheezy but he comes across as genuine. (Maybe it's because I remember those late '70s guys who took Alan Alda and men who both ate and made quiche for role models. They were considered quite sexy.)

I wonder if her inner shutdown when receiving oral sex was more about not letting him connect to her than that she needed to silently survey his room for intel. Now that she knows he's truly trying to save the world, she can't see him as a monster anymore. I wonder if she and Philip will now ghost Ben and Ms. Lotus 1-2-3.

Edited April 7, 2017 by RedHawk

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, RedHawk said:

I feel sure that Misha's mother (finally remembered her name, Irina) told him not only Philip's real Russian name but also "Philip Jennings". So it's possible that Misha could call different travel agencies and ask for Philip Jennings without arousing TOO much suspicion. He knows that once Philip is on the line he can speak Russian to him. 

He told his grandfather that all he knew was that he was a Travel Agent. He may have just not mentioned the name, but it's possible Irina didn't know it when she gave him that information. Even if she did know at the time she may have thought it was far too dangerous to go throwing his name around. It seems unlikely they'd be keeping it a secret from the audience that he knows the guy's name and could call him if he eventually figured out how to do that. (Even if the guy identified the right phone book he might have a lot of trouble knowing what letters his name started with.) Philip probably wouldn't speak Russian to him on the phone. That would be a major breach and dangerous for him. He'd have to pretend he didn't understand.

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Misha's mother was a spy, not Philip's.

If Philip's mother had been a spy she would have had the worst assignment ever!

4 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

The finale of M*A*S*H is part of what made me think PTSD in the first place, although the possibility of adjusted memories didn't even cross my mind until you mentioned it. Hawkeye didn't have the intrusive memories, but the story being told in fragments reminded me of the M*A*S*H finale. (Also to get technical, Hawkeye had something more like shell shock. The symptoms were too immediate for him to have PTSD, and he was still in the war zone). The fact that the bus was the central focus and it was clear horrible something happened there makes me think the tiny room plays a similiar role in Philip's story. In the M*A*S*H finale Hakweye had Sidney helping him, forcing him to remember the truth. Philip doesn't have someone filling that role. 

Thanks for that PTSD/Shell shock distinction. For years I thought they were the same thing so I like being reminded of the difference.

I doubt that Philip has adjusted memories just because it seems like we've seen so few memories for Philip they probably wouldn't trust their ability to throw in a fake one. But it does feel like it's a similar thing where Philip's mind is circling about something--even he seems to get that it's doing that. He knows there's something his mind is telling him about these memories. I love that he even brought it up to Elizabeth in case they could figure it out together. And she seemed to get that--I feel like that's a little change for her too. In the past she wouldn't instinctively prod him about something like that. I can't help but focus on all those details, especially the show going to the trouble of hiring a kid for the first flashback and not the second. (Maybe it's not significant that he wasn't there in the second one, but it must mean something that he was there in the first!)

Oh! That reminds me--Umbelina did a good write-up of some of the details in Philip's flashback room and I realized there's another great parallel there. Ben makes s'mores in his fireplace for fun. Philip's family warmed their bread over a fire because they had no stove. It's like Trevor Noah talking about exposed brick being a rich person thing in the US where for poor people it just means you can't afford plaster.

[Dev F]

5 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Good point.  However, KGB could have done a B and E at the phone company I suppose, and rerouted the old number to be answered at the new number as well.  The tech was pretty simple back then I imagine.  They may have had an agent or two in the wind, or done it specifically in case Misha's mom tried to make contact with Philip again?

Actually, the latter is a halfway decent explanation. If the number was specifically set up for Irina's use, perhaps even for her operation with Philip, they might've wanted to keep it open once she went AWOL in the hopes that she'd try to get in touch with Philip and they'd be able to nab her.

Wait, no . . . that would mean that they deliberately maintained a connection to their central switchboard for someone who for all they knew had defected to the enemy and spilled all her secrets. They should've shut down all her connections as soon as she went off the grid, never mind when Larrick exposed the network.

Ugh. The stupid phone system is the one element of the show that just bugs me to no end. I much preferred the way the system seemed to work in season 1, where their phone access was only situational and they did most of their communication via codes and radio signals. Made the Jenningses' plight feel much more real and isolated.

[Sarah 103]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Thanks for that PTSD/Shell shock distinction. For years I thought they were the same thing so I like being reminded of the difference.

It's a super common mistake. I thought it was different names for the same thing too; Shell Shock being an outdated term and PTSD being an actual diagnosis accepted by the medical/psychiatric community. The only reason I know the difference is that I wrote a paper on PTSD and Vietnam Veterans for a psychology class and a paper on Shell Shock for a class on WWI. 

[EtheltoTillie]

5 hours ago, Dev F said:

Actually, the latter is a halfway decent explanation. If the number was specifically set up for Irina's use, perhaps even for her operation with Philip, they might've wanted to keep it open once she went AWOL in the hopes that she'd try to get in touch with Philip and they'd be able to nab her.

Wait, no . . . that would mean that they deliberately maintained a connection to their central switchboard for someone who for all they knew had defected to the enemy and spilled all her secrets. They should've shut down all her connections as soon as she went off the grid, never mind when Larrick exposed the network.

Ugh. The stupid phone system is the one element of the show that just bugs me to no end. I much preferred the way the system seemed to work in season 1, where their phone access was only situational and they did most of their communication via codes and radio signals. Made the Jenningses' plight feel much more real and isolated.

Thank you for being the first person here to correctly spell the Jenningses' name in plural. You win the internet today.

Edited April 7, 2017 by GussieK

[Ina123]

14 hours ago, Umbelina said:

His calls/signals are being intercepted.  Before he gets them, Gabe and probably Claudia do.  So Misha used the code to contact Philip, but the phone lady, as ordered, didn't tell Philip, she told Gabe.  Presumably it will always be up to Gabe now what signals Philip receives, not sure about Elizabeths...

I should watch that part again for specific language.

When Gabe and Claudia are sitting in the car talking they mention that he used his mother's (Irina's) signal. It was written on a piece of paper he read from in the telephone booth. I guess it was from the things his mother left him. At least, that's how I understood it.

ETA: Sorry, Redhawk answered but I did not see it til after posting.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Ina123

[AllyB]

Annoyingly my laptop is logging me out every time I enter The Americans forum. So excuse any stupid predictive text mistakes I miss.

I have a theory based on this episode that Renee is just an ordinary, sports loving divorced woman who likes Stan. And Philip's suspicions that she is KGB is a further sign of his distrust of his bosses. But this time his distrust is leading him to behave in more 'shakey' ways than ever. Because even if she is KGB wtf does he think tailing her will achieve other than pissing off the Centre? Rightly or wrongly, field agents are sometimes out of the loop about the full extent of operations they are involved in. Philip tailing Renee could completely screw any number of things and he is operating based on nothing more than paranoia.

[Captain Asshat]

19 hours ago, ahpny said:

Floppy disks  (5.25' mylar discs inside a flexible ("floppy") rectangular folder) were indeed the medium of choice at this time. Actually they were almost the only medium available to transfer data to and from personal computers. Modems existed at this time, but they were rare, crude and required physically placing a telephone receiver into cradle with a sleeve. A few years later floppy discs were largely displaced by 3.5" disks that held more data, were smaller, and rigid (less prone to being damaged than the older "floppy" kind). Thus, as I recall,l the reign of floppy discs probably lasted maybe about 5 years or so, but coincided with the time period of this episode.

I think floppies were the standard for at least 10 years before PCs started being sold with floppy and 3.5" drives in the mid 90s, so they coincided for quite some time, before floppies completely went away. My very first PC, back in 1989 or so, had no hard drive and had a dual floppy drive so that I could...get this...have the start-up disc with the OS on it in the A:\ drive.

[qtpye]

20 hours ago, PamelaMaeSnap said:

It's The Dating Game! (Moscow Edition) with your host Ivan Burov!

(sorry, having trouble with figuring out how to make this quote separate from my response) ... As soon as they introduced gorgeous brunette, adorably sexy blonde and slightly buck-toothed mousy brown, I started la-la-la-ing "Spanish Flea" to my husband.

They were all very attractive, but I guess that was the point.  Unfortunately, my husband's friend upon seeing them called them (starting with the raven haired one) face, boobs, and brains.  It brought home how demeaning it was and I am glad Oleg hated it as much as I did.

However, on a shallow note, Renee's body is amazing.  She is giving this hetro female fitness goals.

[AllyB]

2 hours ago, qtpye said:

They were all very attractive, but I guess that was the point.  Unfortunately, my husband's friend upon seeing them called them (starting with the raven haired one) face, boobs, and brains.  It brought home how demeaning it was and I am glad Oleg hated it as much as I did.

I watched it wondering if Oleg's mother would serve each woman cheese on the rind so Oleg would know which one to marry. (The plot of a somewhat obscure Grimm's fairy tale.)

[khyber]

On 4/6/2017 at 1:16 PM, dubbel zout said:

I'm waiting for them to pass information on SyQuest disks. Hee.

I worked for WD in the 80s.

[Umbelina]

Set photos of Philip's childhood home are now in the Philip thread.

[SlackerInc]

9 hours ago, AllyB said:

I have a theory based on this episode that Renee is just an ordinary, sports loving divorced woman who likes Stan.

I really hope you are right!

[PamelaMaeSnap]

On April 6, 2017 at 0:07 AM, J-Man said:

I'm confused about Renee's reference to "the Kings." As far as I know, there are no sports teams of that name in the DC-Baltimore area. In fact, the only ones I can think of are the Los Angeles hockey team and the basketball team that was in Kansas City until 1985, then moved to Sacramento. So is Renee from one of those places, and is it relevant? Not to be a conspiracy theorist, but Kansas City isn't that far from ... Topeka!

Thanks for this.  I have enough trouble keeping all the storylines straight from week to week, no less season to season (brain injury which affects memory) but as a sportswriter, I SHOULD know team nicknames and I got hung up on "What Kings?" We have lived in the DC metro area since 1989 but I'm pretty sure we didn't have a local Kings team in this area that someone would refer to so flippantly even before that ... the only Kings I could think of were Sacramento ... why THIS bugged me I have no idea. 

Oh, also, re: the comments about Margo and Gabriel? Not to sound completely creepy or inappropriate but as someone who had a huge crush on Frank Langella as a tween, I'd still hit that. 

Finally ... and I can't imagine this hasn't been discussed to death in other threads but ... I had been wondering why Henry had been just ignored the first few episodes and then here I was absolutely convinced this couldn't be the same actor ... but given the cast list it is ... has any TV teen ever gone through such a rapid and stunningly extreme puberty in one off-season? He looks NOTHING like Season 4 Henry IMHO ... and he shows none of the wear and tear of awkwardness.  Maybe they just held off a few episodes to let him finish his emerging from the cocoon?

 

Edited April 8, 2017 by PamelaMaeSnap

[SlackerInc]

As I noted upthread, I would much prefer that Renee turned out to be just a woman from the gym with no dark secrets.  I find the notion of her being a spy kind of cheesy and unrealistic. And I like the idea of this show playing against audience expectations and featuring red herrings mixed in with the cloak and dagger.

So also in this vein, I would get a kick out of it if Mischa just ends up going back to the Soviet Union, or maybe defects but never finds Phillip--and Phillip never even knows he was looking for him.  Is that sadistic?  LOL (As I mentioned in the "how I want the show to end" thread, I also want them to surprise everyone by having the series end without Stan ever learning that his neighbors are spies.)

[SWLinPHX]

I wonder if Elizabeth will immediately stop seeing Ben and how that will go because she will need a good explanation -- and now she realizes that she really likes his personality AND his agenda.

Edited April 8, 2017 by SWLinPHX

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, PamelaMaeSnap said:

Finally ... and I can't imagine this hasn't been discussed to death in other threads but ... I had been wondering why Henry had been just ignored the first few episodes and then here I was absolutely convinced this couldn't be the same actor ... but given the cast list it is ... has any TV teen ever gone through such a rapid and stunningly extreme puberty in one off-season? He looks NOTHING like Season 4 Henry IMHO ... and he shows none of the wear and tear of awkwardness.  Maybe they just held off a few episodes to let him finish his emerging from the cocoon?

 

Yes, the boy who plays Bran in Game of Thrones shot up like crazy between seasons. But I think part of the reason this is so stunning is that he spent most of last season sitting down in all of his scenes, so we didn't see him get any taller. IIRC, the actor had a broken ankle or something? Plus, the new haircut is more mature (and looks good on him).

[crgirl412]

2 hours ago, SWLinPHX said:

I wonder if Elizabeth will immediately stop seeing Ben and how that will go because she will need a good explanation -- and now she realizes that she really likes his personality AND his agenda.

No, she sees him again according to a promo. 

[Solnichka]

Svoloch! The fella Oleg was grilling didn't say "Son of a bitch," but rather "Bastard," which I agree is a 'softer' term. I wondered why they used SOB, though long ago I gave up trying to understand Russian translations for profanity. I'd guess it's because WE use SOB more often than bastard, but who knows.

The lumps Papa Philip brought home were bread rations. It was obvious to me because they so closely resembled the rations on display at the blockade museum in St. Petersburg. These fist-sized bits of bread were what was allotted to citizens during the blockade, and they were mostly sawdust and got smaller as supplies dwindled. But when the heck was this scene supposed to be? Pre-WWII USSR? I couldn't figure that out, but because of what the bread looked like, it was obvious to me that they were rations, heated up by the fire to soften them, as they were described as hard as rocks. But also as obvious was that they weren't in St. Petereburg during the blockade in that scene. So I have no idea what that was about, but it was a ration of bread.

Lots of people having dinner this ep. P & P had Chinese & discussed Paige's problems (ordered in). Oleg had the Dating Game Dinner where he told his father off (cooked by the girlies but uneaten). Philip flashed back to dinner in silence after his dad brought home their rations (eaten). McDonald's with Tuan & P where P can't eat. Also McDonald's was one of those things that was the epitome of "America" to the Russians & it was huge when they moved into Russia. Misha didn't get to eat. Good father-child parallels.

Also I'm thankful for this board for reminding me of the loud-banging younger child in Philip's former flashbacks. Gah you guys, they DIDN'T EAT THE BABY! But I do wonder if the baby was sacrificed, so to speak, because Philip showed some kind of aptitude for a better life (tougher? Smarter - good at math?) or because he was the eldest son. & so rather than eaten (gah!), the younger one was more left to starve, or given less. I'd thought the classmate killing P did may have been before our flashback tonight, but I agree with others that the killing was when P was older. I do think it's important what happened to the baby. Fun fact: during the blockade, there was cannibalism. Quite a lot of it, and the best place to find meat (you didn't ask what kind) was the "Haymarket Square," which is the square that the subway station was that was bombed this week. Okay not a fun fact, but that was also my metro stop when I was there 20 years ago. So it made me sad.

So, fathers and children. Lots of fathers and children! I have to believe that the early scene with Henry breaking in to a neighbor's house to play video games was not a random dropped storyline. I think Henry is being set up to be the one with all the aptitude for the spy game but he's going to be overlooked for Paige. But WHY? I don't so much see how this fits in, at least not in a way that makes sense to me. I think P is closer to Paige because she's the eldest, and the eldest get the best of everything, like he did. I'm sure this is overthinking, but what the hell. What does P do with that when he meets Misha?? I thought it was curious, too, that the scene with Tuan & P was outside playing catch instead of, say, watching from a bedroom window. He can't say he's proud of Henry but he goes out to play catch with Tuan. Hmmmm...

Finally, I thought Rhys after Elizabeth told P about the wheat strains & feeding the world - wow. That was some amazing acting right there. I think he went red with rage with the lab guy, because of what he'd been through as a child. Hunger is no joke - it's traumatizing, especially in children. & to find out that not only were they wrong & they killed him for no reason, but it was the exact opposite, and the lab was actually trying to prevent the very horrific thing that P had to go through when he was a wee one? His abject horror at what he had done - it was as if he alone condemned the Soviet citizens to starve because he over-reacted to the situation. I was floored by him - I love this show but I also can't wait to see him move on to other great things. Well done.

I felt vindicated that they talked about the food transportation problems in this episode, & I hope they keep adding more to this story because it's still too vague for me. Next week I'll have to watch sooner so I can better participate in the discussion!

[VCRTracking]

A downer episode. Phillip's been on the edge for a while. I hope he actually does meet Misha because it might actually lift his spirits.

Welp, I can scratch seeing the Brawny guy go downtown on Felicity off my bucket list.

Damn, Oleg's dad really went all out. Get to choose a blonde, brunette and a redhead? Wish my parents hooked me up like that.

The McDonald's cups and styrofoam boxes brought back childhood memories.

Laurie Holden is much more vivacious when she's not trying to survive a zombie apocalypse.

Edited April 8, 2017 by VCRTracking

[AllyB]

I hope Mischa continues to be distrustful of Gabriel. Because if Gabriel ever discovers that Mischa knows his father is a travel agent that would have to be a death sentence. That information is of extremely limited use to Mischa. But if he defected and gave that little nugget to FBI counterintelligence, they'd have the Jennings within months, at most. Or within hours of Stan being told.

[Clanstarling]

8 hours ago, Solnichka said:

The lumps Papa Philip brought home were bread rations. It was obvious to me because they so closely resembled the rations on display at the blockade museum in St. Petersburg. These fist-sized bits of bread were what was allotted to citizens during the blockade, and they were mostly sawdust and got smaller as supplies dwindled. But when the heck was this scene supposed to be? Pre-WWII USSR? I couldn't figure that out, but because of what the bread looked like, it was obvious to me that they were rations, heated up by the fire to soften them, as they were described as hard as rocks. But also as obvious was that they weren't in St. Petereburg during the blockade in that scene. So I have no idea what that was about, but it was a ration of bread.

Thank you for confirming that was bread. They didn't resemble anything I'd ever seen.

[Ellaria]

4 hours ago, AllyB said:

I hope Mischa continues to be distrustful of Gabriel. Because if Gabriel ever discovers that Mischa knows his father is a travel agent that would have to be a death sentence. That information is of extremely limited use to Mischa. But if he defected and gave that little nugget to FBI counterintelligence, they'd have the Jennings within months, at most. Or within hours of Stan being told.

Thank you for confirming that Gabriel isn't aware that Misha knows that his father is a travel agent. I was just about to pose that question here. Agree that Misha couldn't do much with that information on his own. However, I think that Gabriel will do what he can to protect Misha. He appears to have mixed emotions about this turn of events. Perhaps he confides in Elizabeth first.

I have another question: does Elizabeth know that Phillip is watching Renee? Under the usual circumstances, he would not do it without E's knowledge and approval. But, IMO, these aren't normal circumstances for him. I think that he is doubting/questioning a lot of things right now. And if he learns that Renee is something other than a "cool girlfriend," what will he do with that information?

FWIW- I don't think that she is KGB.

[dubbel zout]

10 hours ago, Solnichka said:

Also McDonald's was one of those things that was the epitome of "America" to the Russians & it was huge when they moved into Russia.

Not just to the Russians! I spent five years in Holland as a child, and when the first McDonald's opened there (early 1970s), it was a huge deal, big enough that my brothers and I wanted that as our birthday dinners, and our parents drove us the hour or so it took to get there.

[sistermagpie]

12 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Yes, the boy who plays Bran in Game of Thrones shot up like crazy between seasons. But I think part of the reason this is so stunning is that he spent most of last season sitting down in all of his scenes, so we didn't see him get any taller. IIRC, the actor had a broken ankle or something? Plus, the new haircut is more mature (and looks good on him).

I think they were already hiding his height then. He had a broken foot, but even in the ending episodes they would have him sitting down or leaning over or on a lower stair, or the camera angle would make it look like Philip was looking down at him when he was already taller than Matthew Rhys.

It's kind of cool how it's worked. I love how they've used it. I remember at the start of S4 they had P&E discussing Henry's cologne in the first ep (in which he didn't appear) and I thought--they're totally preparing us for Henry to be adolescent now, because the last time we saw him was literally a day or two ago in P&E's time and he was a little boy. So in a way they're making his height work for them--they hid it until the season when he's a teen force to be reckoned with and his height makes him immediately different from Paige when challenging his parents.

11 hours ago, Solnichka said:

Svoloch! The fella Oleg was grilling didn't say "Son of a bitch," but rather "Bastard," which I agree is a 'softer' term. I wondered why they used SOB, though long ago I gave up trying to understand Russian translations for profanity. I'd guess it's because WE use SOB more often than bastard, but who knows.

Just wanted to note that since the the Russian translators seem to have a lot of freedom to write the scenes from scratch (a good thing, imo), it's almost like two scenes written somewhat independently, if that makes sense. I love listening to all the differences between them. I know from the podcast that they have a translator in NYC and they also then run it by another person in Russia. The two sometimes disagree. I get the feeling that maybe the NYC is the one who swears less. :-)

11 hours ago, Solnichka said:

The lumps Papa Philip brought home were bread rations. It was obvious to me because they so closely resembled the rations on display at the blockade museum in St. Petersburg. These fist-sized bits of bread were what was allotted to citizens during the blockade, and they were mostly sawdust and got smaller as supplies dwindled. But when the heck was this scene supposed to be? Pre-WWII USSR? I couldn't figure that out, but because of what the bread looked like, it was obvious to me that they were rations, heated up by the fire to soften them, as they were described as hard as rocks. But also as obvious was that they weren't in St. Petereburg during the blockade in that scene. So I have no idea what that was about, but it was a ration of bread.

And there were three of them--not four. So was that kid from the earlier scene dead? Not family? Was Philip misremembering something? Is there another time/place in the USSR where people would be given rations?

11 hours ago, Solnichka said:

Also I'm thankful for this board for reminding me of the loud-banging younger child in Philip's former flashbacks. Gah you guys, they DIDN'T EAT THE BABY! But I do wonder if the baby was sacrificed, so to speak, because Philip showed some kind of aptitude for a better life (tougher? Smarter - good at math?) or because he was the eldest son. & so rather than eaten (gah!), the younger one was more left to starve, or given less.

The other boy was older than Philip, not younger. According to IMDB that boy was 8 and Philip was 6 (and he does look clearly older than little Philip in the scene). In these scenes Philip is 6 (his father died when he was 6) and he killed the older boy(s) when he was 10.

11 hours ago, Solnichka said:

I think Henry is being set up to be the one with all the aptitude for the spy game but he's going to be overlooked for Paige. But WHY?

I don't think he is being overlooked for Paige. Paige simply got the first focus because she's older. Jared was first, then Paige. Amelia would maybe have been next had she not been killed. No reason to think the KGB wouldn't be very interested in Henry, but he's still younger than Paige was when they told P&E to bring her in. P&E seem to have silently decided not to discuss this, but they must know it's coming.

So if Philip ever makes the parallels between his two kids, he'd be Henry, the younger. I think he and Henry used to be very close and it's only the stress of the job and guilt that's made them more distant now--and that they have very similar personalities where both withdraw when they're upset, as opposed to Paige who demands attention. Plus I think Philip probably sees Paige as being a lot like Elizabeth, so he tends to exaggerate how great she is. Henry, being more like him, he's more likely to see the flaws. Not that he's ever really criticized Henry. But in the past Elizabeth saw Henry as being like Philip in that he was a survivor while Paige was more fragile. Philip in the past sometimes gushed over Paige's smarts and with Henry just said that he was a kid now but who knows what he could be as an adult? Which kind of fits since Philip seems a little unsure who he (Philip) is, exactly.

[Umbelina]

4 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Thank you for confirming that was bread. They didn't resemble anything I'd ever seen.

@Solnichka

Thanks for that great post.  Yes, the bread was confirmed on twitter, including the sawdust!  See the Philip thread for the photos.  Or look through Joel Fields' posts here:  https://twitter.com/joel_fields

So, since Misha Sr. was 6 in those flashbacks, the war should have been over, but he's in Siberia so perhaps the "ration bread" was a continuing thing there? 

[Sarah 103]

19 hours ago, SWLinPHX said:

I wonder if Elizabeth will immediately stop seeing Ben and how that will go because she will need a good explanation -- and now she realizes that she really likes his personality AND his agenda.

She has two options. She can tell Ben the project she was working on is over/the company is tranfering her to a different department or division and this was fun, but let's end it while it's still fun and then we can have these great memories. The other option is for Elizabeth to tell the Centre she thinks they can turn him and use him as a source, which means she does not have to end the relationship. 

15 hours ago, Solnichka said:

I thought it was curious, too, that the scene with Tuan & P was outside playing catch instead of, say, watching from a bedroom window. 

Playing catch looks like an everday suburban activity. No one is going to look twice or give it a second thought. If someone saw them watching from a bedroom window, that might seem strange. 

Edited April 8, 2017 by Sarah 103

[SlackerInc]

22 hours ago, Solnichka said:

Also McDonald's was one of those things that was the epitome of "America" to the Russians & it was huge when they moved into Russia.

Yeah, I was curious to check it out when I was in Moscow in summer 1990.  It had opened about five or six months earlier, but it was still a phenomenon: the line stretched out the door and 3/4ths of the way around a city park across the street!  No exaggeration.  It was hard for me to imagine that everyone in that line was actually going to get served.  I said "forget this" and went and ate at a mostly empty Russian cafe instead, where the food was really good (certainly much better than any McDonald's I've been in), and super cheap.  I think I spent about five or six cents in U.S. currency, if I remember right.

21 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Damn, Oleg's dad really went all out. Get to choose a blonde, brunette and a redhead? Wish my parents hooked me up like that.

Heh, GMTA.  Glad I'm not the only one!

11 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Not just to the Russians! I spent five years in Holland as a child, and when the first McDonald's opened there (early 1970s), it was a huge deal, big enough that my brothers and I wanted that as our birthday dinners, and our parents drove us the hour or so it took to get there.

Did they have a long line too?

[dubbel zout]

12 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

Did they have a long line too?

It was a long time ago (I'm old!), but I'm pretty sure if there wasn't a long line, the restaurant was always pretty crowded. For those of us Americans without access to the PX, it was about as close to America as we could get.

[Sighed I]

On 4/5/2017 at 9:27 AM, stagmania said:

All your speculation about Phillips's memories being some sort of PTSD or functioning as puzzle pieces is really interesting; I think and hope it's leading to something bigger that will give us further insight to his character. His guilt over the bad kill, in conjunction with realizing he's neglected Henry and Paige is miserable, has him primed for a major meltdown. I expect that Mischa (and maybe Stan?) is going to be the final straw, however that ends up happening.

I don't know why, but I get the feeling Elizabeth will be the one who finds out about Mischa. I'm not sure whether she'll be as outraged as Philip--I agree he will lose it when he finds out--but coming on the heels of them being wrong about the wheat, I could see it being another chink in the armor. The True Believer part of herself could understand and perhaps even agree with Claudia's reasoning; at the same time, as she and Philip have become closer, I think he's opened her eyes of how high a price their way of life has and continues to cost them. By hiding/lying about Mischa, their handlers are demonstrating that they don't trust P/E. After everything they've sacrificed for the cause, I'd think even Elizabeth would see the move as a serious betrayal, especially after Claudia put them through the ringer before, testing their loyalty.

Quote

I do think Elizabeth felt bad about their mistake, but in a different way than Phillip. For him, the pain is more existential-he doesn't want to hurt people anymore, he no longer has strong faith in their righteousness, and it's chipping away at his soul. Elizabeth, on the other hand, still has her cause and truly believes that what they're doing is for the greater good, and can view occasional mistakes as unfortunate but unavoidable collateral damage. So she feels bad they killed an innocent man, but most of her concern was for Phillip and how she knew the knowledge would hit him. At this point, I think she understands that she's able to compartmentalize and cope with the nastier parts of their work much better than him, and it was a very generous thing for her to offer to take on his burden. Of course she wants to comfort him-I think the show has gone through great pains to show us her evolution in falling in love with him for real and trying to understand him better.

This is how I interpreted her reaction as well. She does feel badly about killing the guy, and it bothers her that the Center was wrong about the wheat, but she isn't going to flog herself over collateral damage, no matter how regrettable (Yung Hee excepted perhaps).  She was worried about Philip and what it would do to him. She knows it will devastate him, and even though I don't think she always understands the degree of Philip's angst, it pains her to see him suffering. I saw her offer as wanting to do something to lighten his burden in a situation where they have very few options.

On 4/5/2017 at 10:54 AM, Chaos Theory said:

I think this season is actually very good.  I think some of the problems is that last season had some of the best episodes the show has ever done.  The Martha gets exfiltrated episodes were some of the most thrilling episodes the show has ever done.  Plus I don't think the series is the same since Martha and to a lesser extent Gaad has left

I started watching this show last year during this arc. I'd gotten home for work, turned on the TV and it happened to be on. I rarely pick up heavily serialized shows midseason, let alone mid-episode, but I was sucked in almost immediately and spent the next couple of weeks catching up on previous seasons. I even joined Amazon Prime so I could watch the whole thing. All this from two thirds of "The Rat". :)

I have faith, and am enjoying this season too, though I get what people are saying about it being slow. Things are simmering. I'm feeling as tense as the characters in their respective situations as I watch all the pieces move into place and wait for the inevitable. I was terrified for Mischa during his escape and am worried about what is going to happen to him now; I hadn't expected to be that invested in his story line but I'm rooting for him (and the actor looking like he could be the offspring of MR is a nice bonus). I love Oleg and am enjoying the Moscow story line much more than I thought I would and especially like his relationship with his mother (incredible acting on both of their parts).

I guess I'm not in a hurry for the shit to hit the fan because I know it won't end well for the vast majority (if not all) of our characters. Despite everything they've done, I can't help but root for these people. I want them to have a happy ending (such as it is) but I know they can't and won't get one. So yeah, I'm definitely invested and the pacing is working for me, though I do miss characters like Nina, Arkady, Martha and Gaad.

On 4/5/2017 at 1:03 PM, stagmania said:

I see no scenario in which Elizabeth would agree to murder Phillip's son, or in which Gabriel, Claudia, or anyone else would order her to. There are hard limits and even the Centre understands that.

I agree. Elizabeth would kill herself before she'd kill Philip's son.

On 4/5/2017 at 1:33 PM, kikaha said:

I found it sickly ironic, that right before P killed the tech guy a while back, E told him "you should have asked."  Yet Elizabeth asks no such questions herself, and treats murders like that as collateral damage. 

That's because Elizabeth sees the bigger picture...or at least that's what she tells herself. In the end, what is the life of one lab tech compared to the safety and security of the Motherland? She can't afford to ask herself uncomfortable questions, especially with Philip falling apart before her eyes because he is asking those questions. If they're going to survive, someone has to be the "strong one" and suck it up.

[sistermagpie]

47 minutes ago, Sighed I said:

This is how I interpreted her reaction as well. She does feel badly about killing the guy, and it bothers her that the Center was wrong about the wheat, but she isn't going to flog herself over collateral damage, no matter how regrettable (Yung Hee excepted perhaps).  She was worried about Philip and what it would do to him. She knows it will devastate him, and even though I don't think she always understands the degree of Philip's angst, it pains her to see him suffering. I saw her offer as wanting to do something to lighten his burden in a situation where they have very few options.

 

52 minutes ago, Sighed I said:

That's because Elizabeth sees the bigger picture...or at least that's what she tells herself. In the end, what is the life of one lab tech compared to the safety and security of the Motherland? She can't afford to ask herself uncomfortable questions, especially with Philip falling apart before her eyes because he is asking those questions. If they're going to survive, someone has to be the "strong one" and suck it up.

This make me think that sometimes the two of them, after all these years, act as one unit. There's lots of examples where they balance each other, one taking the other position just because the other person needs that weight on the other side. In this case that seems important because on one hand, as you say, Elizabeth is making herself "the strong one" rather than join Philip in circling that drain.

But at the same time, I think Elizabeth gets something out of what Philip is doing. She's definitely relied on Philip to be "soft" on the kids in ways she doesn't feel she can do but ultimately thinks they need. A most obvious example would be Philip saying they shouldn't kill Pastor Tim because of what that would do to Paige when left by herself she would have killed them because it was the logical thing to do.

So even here, I think she does see that Philip's asking these questions is part of what makes him Philip and part of what makes him valuable to them as a team. She's grown out of the place where she just saw it as weakness and reported it as a danger. If she was working on her own she might be more bothered by these kinds of mistakes, or have become way more rigid and evil in order to deal with these things. But as it is she can rely on Philip to be doing that so she doesn't have to. And it's worth noting that when Elizabeth is feeling this way Philip takes the other position--supporting Lucia's death, offering silent support about Young-Hee, etc.

So like at this point I don't think when Philip says that "we'll be more careful" isn't enough that Elizabeth sees that as just him making things difficult. I think she takes it in as something that's actually important.

[Sighed I]

26 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

 

This make me think that sometimes the two of them, after all these years, act as one unit. There's lots of examples where they balance each other, one taking the other position just because the other person needs that weight on the other side. In this case that seems important because on one hand, as you say, Elizabeth is making herself "the strong one" rather than join Philip in circling that drain.

But at the same time, I think Elizabeth gets something out of what Philip is doing. She's definitely relied on Philip to be "soft" on the kids in ways she doesn't feel she can do but ultimately thinks they need. A most obvious example would be Philip saying they shouldn't kill Pastor Tim because of what that would do to Paige when left by herself she would have killed them because it was the logical thing to do.

So even here, I think she does see that Philip's asking these questions is part of what makes him Philip and part of what makes him valuable to them as a team. She's grown out of the place where she just saw it as weakness and reported it as a danger. If she was working on her own she might be more bothered by these kinds of mistakes, or have become way more rigid and evil in order to deal with these things. But as it is she can rely on Philip to be doing that so she doesn't have to. And it's worth noting that when Elizabeth is feeling this way Philip takes the other position--supporting Lucia's death, offering silent support about Young-Hee, etc.

So like at this point I don't think when Philip says that "we'll be more careful" isn't enough that Elizabeth sees that as just him making things difficult. I think she takes it in as something that's actually important.

Yes. On the one hand, Philip's conscious certainly makes things more complicated on the work front. On the other, it makes him trustworthy in a way that no one else can be for her. He's really the only one she knows, without question, will have her back, and their children's. And as mucked up as things are with Paige and Henry, they would be infinitely worse without Philip's moderating influence (even if he did totally blow the "I'm proud of you" moment he should have had with Henry).

When the only person she can really trust is expressing doubts, I think she can't help but feel doubt as well. She's just better at hiding it because it comes more naturally to her. KR's acting is so masterful because I can see the struggle in her eyes and face. I feel like the writers want the viewers to wonder if Elizabeth will ultimately betray Philip, and there are times when I wonder about it myself. But more and more I'm becoming convinced that Elizabeth would sacrifice herself rather than betray him. Before they were fighting for a righteous cause. Philip reminds her that there is a human element that cannot be ignored, lest you become the monster you are fighting.