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kariyaki

S04.E09: XXXVII

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Silver and his men hunt for Flint on Skeleton Island; Madi receives an offer; Rogers struggles to hear Eleanor; Billy casts his lot.

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This episode was anti climatic because I was expecting a backstory and with the way Luke Arnold hyped it ... if I rewatch  the series maybe I will appreciate this episode but right now I'm disappointed.

Edited by GodsBeloved
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I agree @ GodsBeloved.

This was disappointing. It was cool seeing Flint teach Silver how to fight and as result how well he's (Silver) come to know his (Flint) strategic mind, but my understanding was that we'd get a lot more backstory on Silver, but we didn't. He's still as mysterious as ever, unless we're going to learn more about him is episode 10. 

I ❤️ Madi. So glad she told Rogers to go f*ck himself. She was absolutely right. Eleanor is dead due to his actions. Madi is so strong. Flint was right in what he said to Silver, that the stakes are so much higher for her. However, he is full of sh*t and forever the manipulator. Glad Silver did not cave to a word he said and still wanted to beat his @ss. Also glad that if he (Silver) has a story to tell he didn't tell it to Flint, because that man would've used everything he knew about Silver's life to manipulate him. Look at what he's doing with the knowledge that Silver loves Madi and sees her as a spouse. Flint is a "friend" until he's not, and that's when whomever is not doing what he wants them to do. Flint's endgame is Flint. 

Speaking of Madi/Silver, I liked the brief scene with them sharing a meal. Love the fact that he told her EVERYTHING about Flint, most especially the Thomas stuff. Though it's irrelevant now I think there can be no debate, he told her where the treasure was buried. ❤️?   I'd also take this even further and guess that if Silver does have a backstory to tell, he told it all to Madi. 

So Dooley buries the treasure from TI, not Flint. 

Billy has gone full on traitor. What is his end game? Death? As long as Silver and Flint are destroyed?

I LMAO when Rackham was going on about freedom and victory only to learn that their guide had dropped dead. SMH. ?

Was anyone else counting off the men as Flint killed them? I think 7 died instead just 6 as stated in TI. 

This episode was ok. Not sure how they're going to tie up all the storyline threads in an hour next week, unless they plan to end the series on a cliff hanger, which is possible.

R.I.P. Walrus. ?

Edited by Enero · Reason: Edited to add some more thoughts about Madi/Silver and Flint.
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Can we take a moment to appreciate how gorgeous that episode was ? It was full of truly beautiful shots and I've done my share of screencaps there ! 

I'll try to offer more constructive thoughts later but now it's time for a rewatch ! 

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Rogers and Eleanor didn't really know each other at all.  Of all the things, the most memorable thing about Eleanor is the sound of her needlepoint!  She only picked up needlepoint to make his society friends happy.  I guess they both prefer the idealized versions of each other.

I liked the flashback scenes of Flint teaching Silver to fight.  I didn't realize Silver's backstory was made up.

Pirates really don't have loyalty to each other, Dooley was real quick with offering to kill Silver.  I was expecting Joji to let Flint go, too. 

Ugh, I wish they had posted next week's episode too.  I want to know the end!

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Yes, my black ass was about to shed tears of pride at   at Madi telling Rodgers to take this "deal" and shove it up his ass ! Too many have died and continue to suffer for her to make deals with men like him who see it as their duty to uphold "civilization".

And kudos to her for hammering it home to Woodes that he is responsible for Eleanor's death. 

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Wait a minute now. Not that's its a huge shocker or anything, but its just hitting me that we have spent four seasons with John Silver, but we know virtually NOTHING about the guy. We only knew a few scraps of his backstory before, but now? Is John Silver actually his name? Is he actually English? Is he a natural brunette? WAS ANY OF IT REAL?!?!

We do know he loves Maddi though. I love them so much. I do think its interesting to compare Maddi and Silver in these episodes. While Silver was willing to throw out the entire war effort to save Maddi (not that he wouldn't have probably come up with a new plan, but still), Maddi told Woodes in no uncertain terms just where he could shove his deal, even if it could mean saving Silvers life. I'm not knocking either of them, it just shows how different they are. While Silver has certainly grown a lot from the total opportunist of the first season, he is still willing to put an individual over the Cause. While Maddi, even though she loves Silver and would certainly be devastated if he was killed, has a Cause and a People to look out for, and she will put it and them first, even if it means personal loss for her. Again, not judging anyone, its just interesting and consistent characterization.

Speaking of, Maddi just so awesome. She has zero fear of these assholes, and she knows better then to deal with them. When Woodes is going on about what an awesome guy he is for not smacking Maddi for daring to fight against him and "getting Eleanor killed", I loved how Maddi is just like "Yeah dude, I am just SO SORRY I'm a little salty about the continuing subjugation, abuse of, and enslavement of my people, and that I'm kind of over it." And then told Woodes that Eleanor's death was all on him. HAH!

Billy has just lots him damn mind in his feud with Flint. He has been one of my favorites since episode 1, and it sucks that we are ending his story on such a shitty note.

I don't want this show to end! I'm glad they aren't dragging it out and they are ending on a high note, but how will I get my pirate fix now?

Edited by tennisgurl
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1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Wait a minute now. Not that's its a huge shocker or anything, but its just hitting me that we have spent four seasons with John Silver, but we know virtually NOTHING about the guy. We only knew a few scraps of his backstory before, but now? Is John Silver actually his name? Is he actually English? Is he a natural brunette? WAS ANY OF IT REAL?!?!

To be honest, I'm incredibly relieved they didn't delve into Silver's backstory. He's a mystery in Treasure Island, and he's a mystery here. We know all we need to know. (Writers often go to the well too often when it comes to details and backstories - I think Silver is like Han Solo in that we don't NEED to know that story).

The location scout needs a medal for finding Skeleton Island. Too often adaptations of Treasure Island depict it as this beautiful, colourful, exotic locale, when the original text describes it as very eerie and uninviting. I'm always impressed at how well the writers know the novel. 

Well, it looks as though Jack won't be turning up with the cavalry (as I half-suspected last week). You gotta laugh though: he has another of his self-important speeches and then is called on deck to find the guide has dropped dead. Toby's little: "mm-hmm" noises were hilarious. 

I suppose I have to give Billy credit for not shooting Ben in the water - but he has no qualms about taking out all his other shipmates, so I can't feel too badly for how I know his story will end. 

Joji! I knew he was a goner, but ... argh. Farewell Joji: your only job on this show was to look cool, but damn you nailed it. Also: DeGroot! I didn't realize how much I liked him until he was killed (though the show clearly forgot that they cut off his ear at the beginning of this season). 

Madi was a Queen as usual: however manipulative Flint is, he's right about her choosing the cause over Silver. But of course she does: to her it's a war against her people's enslavement. LOVED her pointing this out to a tool of the Empire (who is becoming increasingly aware of his own tool-dom. Britain is going to chew Rogers up and spit him out).

As for Silver/Flint... whew. I honestly didn't know how that was going to end. At times they were a little too verbose, but when it finally got to their actions (that is showing instead of telling/pontificating) it spoke volumes that Flint shot Dooley to spare Silver, and Silver attacked him anyway. I think he's just had enough, and hearing Flint ONCE AGAIN try to manipulate him, even though he was telling him the truth about Madi. 

I can't believe we're at the last episode already. For Treasure Island readers, here's what's set in stone:

Spoiler

At least one of the bodies of the dead men has to be arranged so that his skeleton points to the treasure.

A map has to be drawn at some stage, which ends up in Billy's possession.

Billy will survive, though will eventually end up a broken man, absolutely terrified of Silver.

Madi will be rescued, and she and Silver will open an inn together (which I suspect will be a front for helping escaped slaves, much like her father once did).

Ben will end up stranded on Skeleton Island for many years. 

As for Flint - well the book describes him of burying the treasure and dying of drink some years later, but I think the writers will pull a trick somewhere. Silver will tell him of the possibility of Thomas's survival: the only thing that could get Flint to abandon his revenge, and start spreading the rumour that he's been killed. 

Rather depressingly, the treasure WILL eventually end up (for the most part) in British hands after Jim Hawkins gets the map (though Silver will once again evade them).

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52 minutes ago, Ravenya003 said:

 

Madi was a Queen as usual: however manipulative Flint is, he's right about her choosing the cause over Silver. But of course she does: to her it's a war against her people's enslavement. LOVED her pointing this out to a tool of the Empire (who is becoming increasingly aware of his own tool-dom. Britain is going to chew Rogers up and spit him out).

My first thought as well was that Flint was right about Madi's response being war first, love later. Now I'm not so sure. If the war was the way she last knew of it with Nassau being overtaken, I'd agree with Flint. However, she has no idea all that's gone on since her capture and I doubt Rogers has been giving her a play by play. If she knew all that had happened, that Flint was now proposing they take Boston - and to what end? And that Silver was no longer supporting Flint's agenda who knows where she'd land on this issue, but I'm not certain Flint's assertion of where she would land is sound. 

Regarding Rogers, I'm of two minds on this. Of course Madi would tell Rogers to go f*ck himself (<claps hands>) because of all the reasons she voiced, but also his ass can't be trusted. So even if she wanted to make a deal to save Silver's life she wouldn't do it with him. 

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As for Silver/Flint... whew. I honestly didn't know how that was going to end. At times they were a little too verbose, but when it finally got to their actions (that is showing instead of telling/pontificating) it spoke volumes that Flint shot Dooley to spare Silver, and Silver attacked him anyway.

Yes it did. Because Silver FINALLY gets it. That Flint is about Flint and is full of sh*t. Killing Dooley IMHO was apart of Flint's plan. If he'd told Dooley not to kill Silver he wouldn't have ever raised his gun. But when Dooley offered he never told him no, at least we didn't see it. So I think he planned for Dooley to try and kill Silver at some point, then he'd save Silver by killing Dooley, hoping that it would be enough to get Silver back on the reservation. Flint is a cunning SOB. He was working HARD to ensnare Silver again, but thankful Silver has learned and therefore isn't falling for his manipulation. 

Edited by Enero
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32 minutes ago, Enero said:

My first thought as well was that Flint was right about Madi's response being war first, love later. Now I'm not so sure. If the war was the way she last knew of it with Nassau being overtaken, I'd agree with Flint. However, she has no idea all that's gone on since her capture and I doubt Rogers has been giving her a play by play. If she knew all that had happened, that Flint was now proposing they take Boston - and to what end? And that Silver was no longer supporting Flint's agenda who knows where she'd land on this issue, but I'm not certain Flint's assertion of where she would land is sound. 

Regarding Rogers, I'm of two minds on this. Of course Madi would tell Rogers to go f*ck himself (<claps hands>) because of all the reasons she voiced, but also his ass can't be trusted. So even if she wanted to make a deal to save Silver's life she wouldn't do it with him. 

Yes it did. Because Silver FINALLY gets it. That Flint is about Flint and is full of sh*t. Killing Dooley IMHO was apart of Flint's plan. If he'd told Dooley not to kill Silver he wouldn't have ever raised his gun. But when Dooley offered he never told him no, at least we didn't see it. So I think he planned for Dooley to try and kill Silver at some point, then he'd save Silver by killing Dooley, hoping that it would be enough to get Silver back on the reservation. Flint is a cunning SOB. He was working HARD to ensnare Silver again, but thankful Silver has learned and therefore isn't falling for his manipulation. 

Yes to all of this.

I also think its important to remember that Madi refused this offer even when it was only about her people. She refused it in the face of Rodgers threat to sell the Maroons off. I'm not so sure its fair to say she chose her cause over Silver but that Silver being added to the pot didn't sway her enough. Also, if refusing the offer now is her choosing her cause over Silver, what do we call her initial refusal? Was she choosing her cause over her people?

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3 hours ago, Ravenya003 said:

(though the show clearly forgot that they cut off his ear at the beginning of this season).

He has no ear in the scene with Ben Gunn.

Loved everything about this episode. The flashbacks were one of the best things "Black Sails" ever did. The music was a masterpiece. Just watching these two together, watching Flint be so open with Silver. The only one who can get MacGraw out of him. And just to see Silver before all that LJS bravado had started, how vulnerable he is.

Madi. There are just no words to describe how fantastic her scene was. The most badass moment of the entire episode.

Woodes Rogers is delusional dick and he planed it all along. They all would've been dead and without cache now. At least the three of them survived. Now they need to wait when Jack swoops in to take them on board.

Edited by Tanya852
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3 hours ago, Ravenya003 said:

I'm incredibly relieved they didn't delve into Silver's backstory. He's a mystery in Treasure Island, and he's a mystery here.

In the bit of 'behind the scenes' that accompanies the ep on demand, it's made clear that Silver's backstory is opaque by design. Still, one wonders if LA mentally concocted a backstory for himself, and if so, inquiring minds want to know.

Points to whoever decided the Silver v Flint fight should be soundless (especially after all the schwinging and grunting we had up to that point), with the only noise the explosion of the Walrus. Cool. 

Edited by attica
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1 hour ago, Tanya852 said:

He has no ear in the scene with Ben Gunn.

The scene where Ben claims to have heard a woman's voice on the island? Because it gives a shot of both sides of DeGroot's head and both ears are definitely still intact. Unless it was just his earlobe that had been lopped off, but it still doesn't look particularly disfigured to me. 

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Alas poor Joji.   We barely knew him.  A man of infinite badassery.

Can someone explain Jack's speech on board the ship to me?  I consider myself a pretty smart person but I have to admit I cannot figure out how Eleanor's Grandma thinks that she can just place a new "Governor" in the Bahamas once Rogers (and Flint) are out of the way.  She's a subject to the King of England and ultimately it's the King who will decide who runs Nassau.  Flint may be talking about setting up an independent pirate-run / slave-free nation but I don't see Grandma Guthrie buying into that.  What, exactly, is it that Jack thinks the future is going to look like?

Edited by WatchrTina

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That flashback filter made everything in it look better.

Edited by ulkis
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15 hours ago, Ravenya003 said:

The scene where Ben claims to have heard a woman's voice on the island? Because it gives a shot of both sides of DeGroot's head and both ears are definitely still intact. Unless it was just his earlobe that had been lopped off, but it still doesn't look particularly disfigured to me. 

Yeah. It's definitely disfigured. Here (I'll delete the link later)

Edited by Tanya852
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12 hours ago, Ravenya003 said:

Also: DeGroot! I didn't realize how much I liked him until he was killed (though the show clearly forgot that they cut off his ear at the beginning of this season). 

  Reveal hidden contents

At least one of the bodies of the dead men has to be arranged so that his skeleton points to the treasure.

A map has to be drawn at some stage, which ends up in Billy's possession.

Billy will survive, though will eventually end up a broken man, absolutely terrified of Silver.

Madi will be rescued, and she and Silver will open an inn together (which I suspect will be a front for helping escaped slaves, much like her father once did).

Ben will end up stranded on Skeleton Island for many years. 

As for Flint - well the book describes him of burying the treasure and dying of drink some years later, but I think the writers will pull a trick somewhere. Silver will tell him of the possibility of Thomas's survival: the only thing that could get Flint to abandon his revenge, and start spreading the rumour that he's been killed. 

Rather depressingly, the treasure WILL eventually end up (for the most part) in British hands after Jim Hawkins gets the map (though Silver will once again evade them).

If you look closely, you'll see that his left ear has been cut, there's still holes but definitly not an entire ear... 

Well, maybe I should have put that entire sentence in the past, though... 

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22 minutes ago, Triskan said:

If you look closely, you'll see that his left ear has been cut, there's still holes but definitly not an entire ear... 

Well, maybe I should have put that entire sentence in the past, though... 

Yeah, in the episode it happened I thought the whole ear came off (like Judith in Vikings) though it seems it was just his earlobe...

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NOOO Joji !!  That was 1 heck of a way to go.  I guess his loyalty was to the crew afterall.  He did not kill Dooley, only stabbed through his hand, enough to stop him but not kill (I mean the guy was able to bury the treasure after all that).

Knowing how Flint fights (based on opponents' past and present, as told to Silver) you'd think he would kill Joji quick as Joji was in his crew from the beginning ie. he knew Joji (supposedly).  But no, that was a long satisfying all out battle and Joji held himself toe to toe with Flint.  Some might think he even had the upper hand most of the fight.  In my mind Joji was top 5 fighter in the series for sure ;)

On the other hand (heh), Isiah Hands was overrated.  Flint knew him only for a few days and took care of him in 5 seconds flat.

Man, I want to see more pirates vs samurai fights :D :D :D

7 hours ago, ulkis said:

I'm more curious about Joji ended up with them

Me too!

Edited by DarkRaichu
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3 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Man, I want to see more pirates vs samurai fights

Ain't it the truth!

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I ❤️ Madi. So glad she told Rogers to go f*ck himself. She was absolutely right. Eleanor is dead due to his actions.

It was abundantly clear from the start that Rogers was never going to accept any personal responsibility for his own actions.  

Billy sure is a human piece of garbage.

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Gods, I can't believe we only have one episode left.  How, in heaven's name, are they going to resolve all this in just one episode?  I don't think I'm ready to see so many die at one go. I guess

 

Madi, Silver anf Billy are safe but I am not sure they won't kill off Flint.

  Not ready for that, I still love him even though he has gone delusional.  Have we seen the last of Anne and Max?  Will they even be in the last episode?  So many questions.  I just wish this show weren't ending -- it's in my top three TV favorites.  :(

RIP Joji and Degroot and Billy couldn't 

 

seem to bring himself to kill Ben

Edited by MaryMatts
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Is the finale 2 hours? Because there's no way there's enough time to end everything. Unless they do a time jump epilogue at the end. 

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No idea how long it's going to be.  I just think there's nowhere near  enough time to resolve everything.

 Anyone know how to delete a spoiler?

Edited by kariyaki · Reason: deleted the spoiler box for ya - you click or tap the box itself on the upper left corner, then hit delete

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9 minutes ago, ganesh said:

Is the finale 2 hours? Because there's no way there's enough time to end everything. Unless they do a time jump epilogue at the end. 

It's an hour and 14 minutes about, according to the cable guide. 

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The episode where no one is thinking clearly.   I thought it was fantastic.

Did I like Madi facing down Rogers - yes, I did but she turned down what Rogers called "freedom for her people" because she, like Flint, want to bring it (Rogers' "civilization") all down?  I am not sure her mother would make that same choice.  Why is Madi so committed to the pirate cause?  She seemed to be seeking retribution for slavery.  I love hearing Rogers be told to fuck off as much as the next person and I enjoyed his expression when Madi told him he was responsible for Eleanor's death, but I'm not 100% clear on Madi's motivations.

Of course you can't trust Rogers - he told Silver he would wait until sunrise the next day before making a move, but he didn't do that.  Maybe he was having a temper tantrum after his conversation with Madi.  I was a little surprised the pirates were caught off guard but I guess most of them were unnerved by the atmosphere.

I laughed when Jack's guide dropped dead.  "Should we..." "Mm hm"   Sail on, Jack and company.

23 hours ago, Tanya852 said:

The flashbacks were one of the best things "Black Sails" ever did. The music was a masterpiece. Just watching these two together, watching Flint be so open with Silver. The only one who can get MacGraw out of him. And just to see Silver before all that LJS bravado had started, how vulnerable he is.

ITA.  I think the friendship between Flint and Silver is real; I think the training scenes showed that.   Silver confides to Madi that he and Flint are friends (and that little voice over scene broke my heart a bit), yet there is a piece of his life that Flint is curious about that Silver chooses not to share.   Silver had said he would learn from Gates and Miranda and he did.  He brought the treasure without telling Flint; that separate part of him knew he needed a backup plan.   He is friends with Flint and has learned from him - as Hands points out - but will not go all in as others have done.   I wonder if Silver was only as committed to the war as Madi is; he loves her and I think if she had some other plan he would go along with that and leave Flint to his war.   He valued the men and his position with them but he sent a bunch of them off to essentially save Madi's life.  I think it's an interesting position for the show to take with the character rather than "pirate v pirate to see who would be king" and Luke Arnold is selling the hell out of it.  

Aw Flint, you shot Dooley to save your BFF, who hates you now :((   I've said it before, Flint has done awful things, but I can't root against him.  He respects Silver and values his friendship - why else teach him to fight, among other things - but while he was busy mentoring he should have realized that Silver didn't place the same value on their war that he does.  Flint has built up too much bad blood with most of the men that the only collateral he has is the treasure to finance their war/freedom.   I can't decide if Silver assumed the men would follow him no matter what if the treasure were gone or didn't care.  

I'll also never tire of seeing Flint winning fights.  I just don't want him to fight Silver.

Aw Billy - I know you hate Flint, but everyone who has gone up against him ends up either dead or alive with their life ruined.  You should have just sailed away when Silver tossed you out.  How you can throw in with Rogers, he basically told you that you were trash. 

RIP Walrus and DeGroot.

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2 hours ago, raven said:

Did I like Madi facing down Rogers - yes, I did but she turned down what Rogers called "freedom for her people" because she, like Flint, want to bring it (Rogers' "civilization") all down?  I am not sure her mother would make that same choice.  Why is Madi so committed to the pirate cause?  She seemed to be seeking retribution for slavery.

It is true that Rogers can't be trusted but I also believe If I remember Rogers' original proposal, he offered freedom for her people but to him, "her people" meant only those from Maroon Island.  He also said he expected her to return any escaped slaves who might seek her out.  To Madi, however, her people include those enslaved and those who might escape in the future.  I don't think her cause is the same cause of the pirates.  Her cause is freedom.  And yeah, I do think she'd put that above LJS even as there is probably nothing that would rank higher than she does for him. 

That brings me to Billy.  Billy. Billy. Billy.  I think if there has been one failure in this show, it's with Billy's current path.  It's not like they haven't given him some motivation for doing what he's doing.  He hates Flint because he know Flint will sacrifice anyone and everyone for whatever reason he sees fit.  But then they had Billy turn into essentially the same person with the Underhill revolution.  And I can see why Billy would feel betrayed that those he was fighting for would so quickly turn on him but enough to absolutely destroy the Walrus and partner with Rogers?  As I said, I can kind of see it but it still doesn't feel as organic as other developments on this show.  Hopefully, the finale will make this make more sense. 

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8 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

It is true that Rogers can't be trusted but I also believe If I remember Rogers' original proposal, he offered freedom for her people but to him, "her people" meant only those from Maroon Island.  He also said he expected her to return any escaped slaves who might seek her out.  To Madi, however, her people include those enslaved and those who might escape in the future.  I don't think her cause is the same cause of the pirates.  Her cause is freedom.  And yeah, I do think she'd put that above LJS even as there is probably nothing that would rank higher than she does for him. 

I agree that Madi is for the freedom of her people and not for Flint's cause though I can see @raven point about Madi seeming to want retribution for slavery.

Flint keeps saying Madi is for this war and in context I can see why some would think Madi agrees wholeheartedly with Flint, that she is for his cause, the pirates' cause. 

I loathe that Flint continues to invoke Madi's name in order to get Silver in line because again the implication is Madi agrees with Flint completely. I don't agree with that. Madi's goal is all about her people while Flint's is about destroying England. If sacrificing Madi and her people got Flint what he wanted, Madi and her people are screwed.

Madi may be thinking she can change the world for her people all at once but hopefully Ruth and Julius' wisdom will come into play. Save who you can and change the world bit by bit.

Edited by GodsBeloved
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^ Agreed. I think Madi wants to change the world, but not in the way Flint wants it to change by burning everything down. Madi wants to change the world but she wants something left for herself and her people to grow and make better. Flint just wants it destroyed. 

The last we saw Madi speaking in depth about the war it was with Silver. And though she told him she agreed with Flint handing over the cache, why did she agree? Because she thought if they could win Nassau they (her and her people) would have a chance at freedom. She was ready to REBUILD without the cache, not continue on burning the world. 

So I agree @GodsBeloved. It can be inferred that Madi and Flint are fighting the same fight and are on the same page,  but really they are not. 

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8 hours ago, Enero said:

So I agree @GodsBeloved. It can be inferred that Madi and Flint are fighting the same fight and are on the same page,  but really they are not. 

I think they are both using each other - for lack of a better phrase - because they both need the combined manpower.   Madi's view expanded to include the Nassau slaves once she saw what was happening there; originally it was just the Maroon people to be involved.  I wish we had more time for interactions with Madi and the Nassau freed slaves or at least Madi and Julius.  So while we can infer what Madi wants, and appreciate the fact that she would not drop her cause to save John Silver, it is too bad that we couldn't get some in-depth information. 

Flint wants civilization (think Rogers) to burn and replace it with whatever version of pirate utopia he has in mind.  Madi would need the same thing to bring about a free society for her people (just no pirate utopia?) or perhaps is angry enough to want it in order to get justice.  I thought it was interesting that she refused Rogers' offer of a treaty, which is why I thought no one was thinking clearly in this episode.  In her own way, she is being driven by emotion as much as Silver or Flint.  She just has a righteous cause on her side, which the other two really don't.  You could say Silver's unwillingness to bargain with her life is righteous, but it's also selfish, as he is putting his feelings above the promises he's made to the men to carry on with the war and all of that.   TBH, neither Flint nor Silver is carrying on the war for altruistic reasons or because they feel the pirates are oppressed or anything like that.

I think the show has done a good job with these 3 points of the triangle leadership and each individual's personal priority.

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9 hours ago, Enero said:

So I agree @GodsBeloved. It can be inferred that Madi and Flint are fighting the same fight and are on the same page,  but really they are not. 

That's one of the best things about this series and why it can get twisty without feeling like they're doing it for shock value.  The pirates and slaves can have a common enemy but the reasons that enemy is their enemy are different.  And while the end game might seem like it's the downfall of civilization/England, in reality the taking of Nassau from the Brits is actually just a means to get to an end game and not their true end game. The true end game is different for almost everyone. 

And when it looks like that end game is achievable in another way or won't be achieved even by the taking of Nassau, loyalties shift and "betrayals" happen.

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On 3/26/2017 at 11:17 AM, FlowerofCarnage said:

Yes, my black ass was about to shed tears of pride at   at Madi telling Rodgers to take this "deal" and shove it up his ass ! Too many have died and continue to suffer for her to make deals with men like him who see it as their duty to uphold "civilization".

And kudos to her for hammering it home to Woodes that he is responsible for Eleanor's death. 

Yaaaaaaasss!  I gave Madi a round of snaps when she told that asshole off.  And he thought he was being so convincing.  I'm tired of him and his quest to protect civilization.  Civilization doesn't need you, prick.  I can't wait till he gets his.

 

On 3/26/2017 at 3:48 PM, Ravenya003 said:

Farewell Joji: your only job on this show was to look cool, but damn you nailed it.

So true! Lol!  He was awesome....and hot; I'm sad he's gone.

Edited by luckyroll3
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On 3/27/2017 at 10:21 AM, icemiser69 said:

Billy sure is a human piece of garbage.

Isn't it fascinating how Billy and Sliver have evolved over four seasons?  In the beginning Billy was -- for lack of a better term -- one of the "good" guys and now he's just lost his damn mind.  Silver, on the other hand, was a lying sack of shit in episode one and I would have been perfectly content if Joji had whacked his head off with his katana like he was Duncan MacLeod of the Clan MacLeod killing a pesky immortal.  Now John is this rich, layered character and I am very fond of him.  I don't think I've ever actually read "Treasure Island" but somehow I know that Long John Silver and Billy Bones are in that book so their future characters were pre-defined and the writers' challenge was to show us how they became those characters given the starts we witnessed on this show.  What a wild ride!

On 3/27/2017 at 8:14 PM, raven said:

Why is Madi so committed to the pirate cause? 

I don't think she's that keen on pirates but as they say, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.  Black men sail freely with pirates and no one tries to sell them in to servitude (thought they are not above seizing and selling the "cargo" of a slave ship).  But mostly I think she just utterly rejected the notion that anyone who was already on Maroon Island was to be set "free" but anyone who arrived one day later would have to be returned to their "master."  Yeah, Madi wasn't have any of that shit.

And add me to the chorus of "Joji was hot." Whatamanwhatamanwhatamightygoodman.  They got lucky the day they cast him.

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