Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[wonderwall]

I think it's especially sad since when he kisses her goodbye, he goes for her forehead instead of her mouth. We know it's because he saw her kissing Ray, and he said he wanted her to be happy. He think's she's moving on and finding that happiness and he doesn't want to mess with that (and he probably figures there wouldn't be much point to it anyway since there's a chance he might not come back), so he keeps it platonic, even though he's probably dying to do anything but. And she's probably a little disappointed since he's keeping it platonic, and she's probably dying for him to do anything but. 

 

I think his "I love you" really did stun her, the beautiful, usually emotionally repressed, idiotic butthead.

 

YES!!! This moment highlights the difference between Oliver and Ray. Even in Oliver's last moments before he headed off on his suicide mission he still respected Felicity, he respected her boundaries, and respected that she was probably moving on. He didn't impose himself on her by kissing her or making her talk about their issues or rehashing the past. He did this by keeping their exchange platonic. He did this because even though it hurt him like hell, he respected that Felicity was moving on and didn't make a huge deal out of it.

 

BUT, Oliver couldn't leave without telling Felicity the truth. Without making her understand just how much clarity is in his head regarding his feelings for her. It's what Felicity deserved to hear, and that's what he did. He told her the unmitigated truth, and left. 

 

This is the most adult portrayal of a relationship I've ever seen on the CW. It's beautiful. 

[Password]

Hehe I don't think the forehead kiss was platonic....

[SonofaBiscuit]

When I watched the episode and heard Felicity say, "I can think of one" (regarding a guy regretting kissing her), I thought it was funny.  And then I came on here and people were pointing out that she thinks he regrets kissing her, but that's literally the last thing Oliver saw before he "died."  Like ugh, I didn't make the connection at the time, but you guys are right and I can't ever watch this episode again.  It's too painful.  Not just because of that, but the awful horrible ending with the sad music, too.  I mean, I can't even go on tumblr and look at gifs from this episode because they seriously make me cry.  I might even have to go so far as to wait until episode 12 (or 13?)

when Oliver returns

and then go back and watch episodes 10 and 11.  I have a case of the sads.

[apinknightmare]

Hehe I don't think the forehead kiss was platonic....

 

I don't think the execution of it was either, but what I meant was that when you're marching off toward possible death and you're kissing the woman you love goodbye, you usually don't go for the forehead. So...it was platonic in a way, even though the feelings behind it definitely aren't.

[Password]

I don't think the execution of it was either, but what I meant was that when you're marching off toward possible death and you're kissing the woman you love goodbye, you usually don't go for the forehead. So...it was platonic in a way, even though the feelings behind it definitely aren't.

I know, I was just being cheeky. I actually never even thought of Oliver having the foresight not to kiss Felicity like he means it because of Ray. Putting that into context, can I love this Oliver anymore?????

[statsgirl]

I think it's especially sad since when he kisses her goodbye, he goes for her forehead instead of her mouth. We know it's because he saw her kissing Ray, and he said he wanted her to be happy. He think's she's moving on and finding that happiness and he doesn't want to mess with that (and he probably figures there wouldn't be much point to it anyway since there's a chance he might not come back), so he keeps it platonic, even though he's probably dying to do anything but. And she's probably a little disappointed since he's keeping it platonic, and she's probably dying for him to do anything but. 

 

I agree that it was sad, the way he kissed her, but I don't think it was about Ray, it was about Oliver himself and and how he was feeling about what he was going off to do.

 

Unlike in the scene last season when he went to offer himself to Slade, I don't think Oliver was giving up and going off to die here, I think he was going to fight as hard as he could for life but there was the very great probability that he was going to die, unlike what he told Diggle, Roy and Felicity, unlike what they were all pretending.

 

A kiss on the lips is romantic and passionate.  A kiss on the forehead is loving, deeply loving in this case.  Oliver had all sorts of feelings for Felicity but he couldn't open up the door of passion because he had to leave her.  He had to.  Kissing her on the mouth could have made that much more difficult, particularly since they weren't in the habit of kissing casually.

 

There were such huge issues here, I don't think Ray having kissed Felicity was on his mind.  I think if he were kissing her on the forehead because she had just kissed Ray, or because he was letting her move on, I think the kiss would have been shorter and not as intense. Nor would he have told her he loved her because that would really mess up her mind if she's moving on.

 

Oliver was hoping to come back if he could, and so I don't think he would want to be encouraging Felicity to move on to Ray.  That kiss was about the two of them and what he needed to do.

Edited December 12, 2014 by statsgirl

[apinknightmare]

I don't think the way he kissed her had anything at all to do with him thinking about Ray. I think it had everything to do with him thinking about Felicity, and not wanting to complicate things for her even more than he already had after being so wishy-washy with her for months and knowing there was a chance that he might not come back. He thought she might've been moving on, and he had resolved in the Flash episode that he needed to let her go. There was absolutely no indication that he was ready or willing to allow himself to be with her. He didn't even volunteer that he loved her - he gave her an opening to ask him about it, and when she did, he unburdened himself by letting her know how he felt. It was simple and true, and then he left. 

Edited December 12, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Kymmi]

There were such huge issues here, I don't think Ray having kissed Felicity was on his mind.  I think if he were kissing her on the forehead because she had just kissed Ray, or because he was letting her move on, I think the kiss would have been shorter and not as intense. Nor would he have told her he loved her because that would really mess up her mind if she's moving on.

 

And that's what I really loved about that scene.  It wasn't about Ray.  It was about Oliver, and his feelings for Felicity.  Just her - not her and possibly Ray or her feelings towards him.  Just her.  It was strong.

 

And now I'm sad again.

[Tangerine]

There was an earlier scene when Oliver was discussing Malcolm's ultimatum with Diggle, Roy and Felicity, and Felicity put a hand on his back to comfort him and Oliver kind of stands up straight and takes a deep breath that was such an amazing acting choice from SA for me.

[ohjoy]

Unlike in the scene last season when he went to offer himself to Slade, I don't think Oliver was giving up and going off to die here, I think he was going to fight as hard as he could for life but there was the very great probability that he was going to die, unlike what he told Diggle, Roy and Felicity, unlike what they were all pretending.

I bolded the first part because -- uuugghhh, you had to bring that up.

That scene -- when Felicity begs that "there has to be another way" and then there's that interminable pause before Oliver concludes that "there isn't" and slowly pulls away from holding her hand -- that was the first time I saw Oliver wanting to kiss Felicity farewell. I was (and am still) convinced he didn't even know he was thinking about it then, but everything about the way he looked at her for so long before he finally answered just struck me that his subconscious was focused on one thing while he was conciously thought he was struggling with something else. It was the first time that I truly believed those feeling were actually going to be addressed on the show, it was just so unbelieveably clear.

Anyway, my point (before I totally distracted myself) was that from my not at all biased view, yes, when Oliver truly believes he is going to directly into certain death, his instinct is to kiss Felicity goodbye.

A kiss on the lips is romantic and passionate.  A kiss on the forehead is loving, deeply loving in this case.  Oliver had all sorts of feelings for Felicity but he couldn't open up the door of passion because he had to leave her.  He had to.  Kissing her on the mouth could have made that much more difficult, particularly since they weren't in the habit of kissing casually.

 

[snip]

 

Oliver was hoping to come back if he could, and so I don't think he would want to be encouraging Felicity to move on to Ray.  That kiss was about the two of them and what he needed to do.

This must shows all sorts of progress and growth in Oliver w/r/t Felicity. Grr -- I don't want to be patient with this show! But since I clearly cannot stop obsessing about every miniscule detail of this developing relationship, my options are kind of limited.

[ohjoy]

And on a similar note -- can somebody make/find some comparison gifs of Oliver's ILYs to Felicity? I don't make gifs, but I do watch my DVR -- and the first time Oliver's tiny headshake before the words came out of his mouth was simply fascinating. To repeat the headshake before this second time -- SA's acting choices sometimes are masterful, and are also going to drive me just a little batty (as you can see above).

[TanyaKay]

Hehe I don't think the forehead kiss was platonic....

Stephen and Emily have such great chemistry, they can make grocery shopping a non platonic and erotic activity, a forehead kiss is still a kiss, even though the intention was platonic. The cross over episodes and mid season finale made me fall in love with Oliver all over again, he is so truly heroic in these episodes.

[Password]

The cross over episodes and mid season finale made me fall in love with Oliver all over again, he is so truly heroic in these episodes.

My thoughts exactly. I've never loved him and wanted more good for him than now.

[Danny Franks]

This must shows all sorts of progress and growth in Oliver w/r/t Felicity. Grr -- I don't want to be patient with this show! But since I clearly cannot stop obsessing about every miniscule detail of this developing relationship, my options are kind of limited.

 

I'm pretty sure that they'll use Oliver's death and resurrection as a way of resetting some of the relationship stuff for the rest of the season. Either the trauma of death, Felicity somehow having started dating her creepy boss, Oliver being crazy and doing hurtful things. One of these things will be presented as a reason for them to not be together. And will conveniently start to be overcome in the finale, to get people watching. 

[Nagevs]

I'm pretty sure that they'll use Oliver's death and resurrection as a way of resetting some of the relationship stuff for the rest of the season. Either the trauma of death, Felicity somehow having started dating her creepy boss, Oliver being crazy and doing hurtful things. One of these things will be presented as a reason for them to not be together. And will conveniently start to be overcome in the finale, to get people watching. 

 

That's how I see it too, and it's partly why I decided this is my last season of Arrow. I just wonder how many seasons MG thinks he'll be able to successfully tease the idea of Oliver and Felicity without ever really doing it, with his ego it's probably the show's entire run. 

 

For me the prospect of Felicity and Ray is just a redo of Oliver and Sara, and I have no interest in that.

[tv echo]

I'm putting this review of "The Climb" in this thread because it includes a great analysis of Oliver's relationship with Felicity that explains how it affected Oliver's character development and how it's different from his past relationships.  Other relationships are also discussed.

 

It also includes the writer's perspective on why Oliver kissed Felicity on the forehead and why Felicity didn't say ILY back.  If you like the O/F relationship, then you'll love this review.  If you don't, then you may want to skip it.

 

Arrow 3x09 "The Climb" (The Unmerited Favor)
http://www.itsjustaboutwrite.com/2014/12/arrow-3x09-climb-unmerited-favor.html

Edited December 13, 2014 by tv echo

[wonderwall]

After thinking about the reasoning behind why Oliver said "I love you" why he only kissed her on her  forehead, why Felicity didn't say anything back, I rewatched the Oliver/Felicity scene in the foundry and I'm falling more and more in love with it :p Now I think it's definitely a 9. Dammit. 

 

Also, in hearing the soundtrack for that Oliver/Felicity moment, it reminded me of the one that played in episode 22 when Felicity was telling Oliver is not done fighting and I think it's interesting that, that soundtrack is called The Essence of Heroism. I might be reading too much into that. But I like to think that I'm not ;)

Edited December 14, 2014 by wonderwall

[wonderwall]

My most favorite thing David Ramsey said was about Diggle's relationship with Oliver and how he's the brother he can save. I think that's why Diggle sticks around, why he always guides him, why he always has his back, why he didn't want to let Oliver go to Ra's alone. Not only does Diggle save Oliver physically on a day to day basis, he saves him from himself, which no one else does on the show.

 

On the other hand, while Felicity, too, saves Oliver physically on a day to day basis, she doesn't save Oliver from himself. She may say something, but she won't fight to save him from himself. What she does fight for and do is save Oliver from his darkness and save him from losing his humanity. 

 

Diggle and Felicity don't need saving because they're comfortable with who they are. So what does Oliver do in return for their support and love for him? Anything. They're his family. Diggle is his brother, Felicity is the woman he's in love with and he loves them both intensely. I can't imagine he wouldn't die for them or do whatever he can for them.

 

This is why Original Team Arrow will always have my heart, and this is why they're the core of the show.

Edited December 14, 2014 by wonderwall

[BkWurm1]

David Ramsey's panel interview was great.  I loved that line about Oliver being the brother he can save.  I also liked when asked that he thought one of the big ways John could help Oliver is by encouraging him to go after that relationship with Felicity to help him deepen his claim on his humanity.  (Though as David he'd warn Felicity about the 528 women Oliver had slept with, lol)

 

I love that DR is purposely playing Diggle as seeing Oliver as his brother.  It deepens the family like relationship I get from the core three. 

 

I would be open to including little Roy boy in that vibe too.  He could use another big brother. 

[BkWurm1]

BUT, Oliver couldn't leave without telling Felicity the truth. Without making her understand just how much clarity is in his head regarding his feelings for her. It's what Felicity deserved to hear, and that's what he did. He told her the unmitigated truth, and left.

 

One of the things that stood out to me was that he could have left without telling Felicity the truth about his feelings.  They weren't something he had to confess to make them real.  They also weren't something he had to hide or needed any further validation about.  He loved her.  It was absolute.  It was as clear to him as his love and dedication to protecting his little sister and it seemed to me, knowing it as the absolute that it was. strengthened him as he went off to face Ra's.   

[Kordi]

TV ECHO posted a link to Jen's (jbuffyangel's) review "The Brightest Light Before The Dark: The Climb Arrow 3×09 Review" in the thread "The Starling City Times: News and Media about Arrow". I think this review is a must-read for anybody who is interested in Olicity. In this text, Jen wrote:

"[...] I think what 3x09 finale will raise for her is…can she [Felicity] survive being in love with him [Oliver]? Can she survive being loved by him? [...] The reality is, loving a hero is not easy. In fact, it’s nearly impossible. Why? Because the hero doesn’t belong to the woman he loves. Oliver doesn’t belong to Felicity. Not even if they are together. Something else, or someone else will always come first. Whether he’s fighting Slade to save the people of Starling or fighting Ra’s Al Ghul to save Thea…the point is Oliver’s life belongs to the cause - to the mission. It’s the life he’s chosen. The question Felicity is asking herself is - IS IT THE LIFE SHE WILL CHOOSE AS WELL?"

In what follows I would like to reflect on the last point of the quote that I've put in capital letters. (Note: For the sake of argument let's leave aside the problem that Oliver thinks he cannot be with Felicity, let's even suppose Oliver somehow get's to a point in his personal development where he is sincerely open to having a love relationship with Felicity. This way, we can concentrate on the choice that Felicity would face in such a situation.)

As I understand Jen‘s comments, Felicity must realize that if Oliver and herself had a life together as a couple, she would inevitably have a life with a man who is always going to put his mission first - a mission where he faces death on a daily basis. Therefore she could never have the "good" part about living a life with Oliver (i.e. being the best [and happiest] version of herself) without the "bad" part of that kind of life (i.e. [a] being put "at the bottom of the list" - or at least not at the top, because that's where his cause is; being faced with the danger of loosing him every day he is out in the field). She would have to decide whether - from her point of view - the good part outweighs the bad part. Only if she came to that conclusion, she could choose a life with Oliver Queen. Otherwise, it would hurt her too much, and she would have to come to the opposite comclusion, namely, that she doesn't want to be a woman that Oliver loves.

So far, I've tried to summarize Jen‘s considerations. Now, I would like to add some personal thoughts. The question "Is the life that Oliver leads the life that Felicity chooses as well?" can mean two things: (a) "Will she choose to be with a man with a certain life, i.e. a life for a mission?" or (b) Will she choose this life (and the mission it includes) FOR HERSELF?"  In other words, is Felicity herself going to fully embrace Oliver's mission of saving Starling City AS HER OWN MISSION, as something that is at the top of HER personal priority list? In my opinion, this second version of the question is the decisive one. The future prospects of "Olivity" hinge upon Felicity's ability to say YES to question (b).

A life with a hero can only work for Felicity if she really wants to be a heroine herself. I am not talking about developing fighting skills and running around in tights. I am talking about turning the safety and well-being of the citizens of Starling City into her personal primary life goal like Oliver has done. Only if Felicity and Oliver share this goal, his mission won't be a potential obstacle that possibly comes between them and separates them, but a band that connects them and unites them.

That's the point where I would like to go beyond what Jen has said in her review. In my opinion, it wouldn't be enough if Felicity came to the conclusion that the "good" part of being with Oliver outweighs the "bad" part, because the cause of saving Starling City would continue to be a kind of "rival" for Felicity in her relationship with Oliver and he, on his part, would continue to be constantly torn between his love for Felicity and his commitment to his mission. I don't think that a love relationship can survive being under such a strain in the long run. It seems to me that the only way for Olicity to succeed is turning Oliver and Felicity into a heroic couple with one common goal: saving Starling City, and in order for this to happen, Felicity has to internalize this goal on a new level.

No doubt, ever since Felicity joined Team Arrow, she committed herself whole-heartedly to Oliver's cause. But it's about time that she confirms this commitment by clarifying her own motives for taking part in Oliver's mission. Does she collaborate and help, primarily, because it is OLIVER's mission and gives her the opportunity to be near him and have his Attention and win his love, respect etc.? Or does she work with Team Arrow because she realizes that Starling City needs her and can't be saved without her?

Since I want to get answers to these questions, I am very excited about the upcoming episodes where Oliver isn't in Starling City. And this is what I hope I will  watch on my TV screen: Although she is in mourning and pain over her loss of Oliver, Felicity - together with others - carries on the mission of saving Starling City, not only to honor Oliver's memory, but because the City is in danger and she herself, Felicity Smoak, with her particular skills (hacking, IT stuff in general etc.) and virtues (bravery, compassion, creativity etc.) can contribute decisively to protecting the citizens against whatever threatens them. I want to watch a young lady who can be, wants to be and chooses to be a heroine - even independently of her love for Oliver. In my opinion, this would put her in the best possible starting position for being with the hero Oliver Queen.

So, yes, I do think that, for Felicity, S3 is about asking herself and answering for herself the question: "Is Oliver's life, a life dedicated to saving Starling City, the life I will choose as well?"

Edited December 14, 2014 by Kordi

[tv echo]

Yeah, jbuffyangel's review was great.  I debated whether to put it in this thread or the Media thread, but ultimately decided to put it in the Media thread because she analyzes a lot of aspects of "The Climb" episode.  I had the same problem with a few reviews of that same episode that really focused on Oliver or Oliver & Felicity..

Edited December 14, 2014 by tv echo

[NumberCruncher]

My thought is that Felicity already had made the decision to put the needs of the city ahead of her own. She made it back in S1 when she joined Oliver's team. It's why even despite "breaking up" with Oliver and getting a real job, she's still spending her nights fighting crime with him. The issue isn't that Felicity has to decide to become a heroine--she already is and was perfectly fine doing so while loving Oliver at the same time--it's that Oliver has to decide to allow himself a life beyond just fighting crime.

Felicity never asked or hinted that she wanted Oliver all to herself. She just wanted him beyond merely working beside him in the Arrow lair. She thought he wanted that too until the bomb hit the restaurant and he regressed back to being like he was emotionally when he was rescued from Lian Yu.

Edited December 14, 2014 by NumberCruncher

[calliope1975]

My thought is that Felicity already had made the decision to put the needs of the city ahead of her own. She made it back in S1 when she joined Oliver's team. It's why even despite "breaking up" with Oliver and getting a real job, she's still spending her nights fighting crime with him. The issue isn't that Felicity has to decide to become a heroine--she already is and was perfectly fine doing so while loving Oliver at the same time--it's that Oliver has to decide to allow himself a life beyond just fighting crime.

Felicity never asked or hinted that she wanted Oliver all to herself. She just wanted him beyond merely working beside him in the Arrow lair. She thought he wanted that too until the bomb hit the restaurant and he regressed back to being like he was emotionally when he was rescued from Lian Yu.

 

Agreed. I think Felicity made the decision to become a hero as well back in S1. We now know the idea was already there from her college days. At the time, she chose to go the straight and narrow instead of breaking the law even if it was potentially for the greater good. Then, Oliver swoops into her life and gives her another opportunity to use her skills, her illegal skills, to help people. Not to wipe out student loans but to bring genuine good to the city. Even though what she is doing could land her in prison. 

 

Oliver may always put the city first, but I think Felicity would as well. We've seen her bail on her other jobs, dinners, etc. to be there for Team Arrow, and I haven't noticed any regret in those decisions. She was angry at Oliver because he, essentially, gave up on life. She and Digg already understand you can take what happiness life gives you even if you have a mission that takes precedence over everything else. Oliver hasn't reached that realization yet. 

 

My girl is never going to get away from heroes. She is catnip to them. Even as misguided as Cooper was, he had the makings of a hero though he chose another path. Barry. Oliver. And now she knows about Ray. All of those people would put the mission before a relationship, and she's okay with that. She just needs someone who will take whatever happiness they can get out of life with her.

[wonderwall]

This is an excellent, excellent, excellent analysis of the scene between Oliver and Felicity. Far better than anything I've written about it. 

 

X

[SonofaBiscuit]

So, for both Oliver/Felicity kisses, Oliver had on a black shirt with a grey V-neck underneath, and Felicity wore fuchsia (probably just a coincidence since those are colors that they both frequently wear).  But the next time I see that color combo on the two of them, I'll be sitting on the edge of my seat waiting for kiss # 3.  

[TanyaKay]

Felicity does have an insane number of fuchsia dresses/tops/coats. Now I too will wait with bated breath when she weaves fuchsia next.

Or may be in won't because they spoil the kisses all the time.

[tv echo]

When do you think Felicity realized she was in love with Oliver (and not just a harmless crush)?  And when do you think Oliver realized he was in love with Felicity (and not just fond of her as a friend)?  I've been thinking about this and just don't know the answer, so I'd be interested in your thoughts.

[Ariah]

Felicity does have an insane number of fuchsia dresses/tops/coats. Now I too will wait with bated breath when she weaves fuchsia next.

Or may be in won't because they spoil the kisses all the time.

 

I kind of hope Felicity will be wearing black with red accents for several episodes.

 

 

When do you think Felicity realized she was in love with Oliver (and not just a harmless crush)?  And when do you think Oliver realized he was in love with Felicity (and not just fond of her as a friend)?  I've been thinking about this and just don't know the answer, so I'd be interested in your thoughts.

 

As I'm currently rewatching season 1 and 2, I kind of think Oliver began thinking of Felicity as someone more than a friends in 2x07, with the "He had you, there was no choice to make" line. But it was not too conscious, by then, rather an instinct and fear of losing a very dear person.

 

The moment it hit him hard was, for me, when she hugged him in I believe 2x22, saying "And I believe in you" (the light symbolism was present in the scene).

 

Felicity, on the other hand, is much harder for me to define - she had a mighty crush on Oliver Queen in her first scene, she appreciated the Arrow's heroism in 1x23. But the very moment she realised she loves him? I kind of like to think it was the scene in 2x08 when she finds him almost dead AND the 2x09 scene of "Promise me" and the subsequent hug on return.

 

Yes, I am obsessed.

[Kordi]

When do you think Felicity realized she was in love with Oliver (and not just a harmless crush)?  And when do you think Oliver realized he was in love with Felicity (and not just fond of her as a friend)?  I've been thinking about this and just don't know the answer, so I'd be interested in your thoughts.

Very good question, @TVecho! Jen (jbuffyangel) had a meta on this one in June. I'm pretty sure I have seen a link to it somewhere in these threads, but since I can't find it right now, I repost the link here. (The text isn't spoilery):

http://jbuffyangel.tumblr.com/post/89523832988/when-did-oliver-fall-in-love-with-felicity

Edited December 18, 2014 by Kordi

[HighHopes]

When do you think Felicity realized she was in love with Oliver (and not just a harmless crush)?  And when do you think Oliver realized he was in love with Felicity (and not just fond of her as a friend)?  I've been thinking about this and just don't know the answer, so I'd be interested in your thoughts.

 

I'm in the camp that believes that while Felicity does love Oliver, she hasn't admitted that to herself yet/realized it. We left them in 2x23 with her saying that they were "unthinkable" and then we have the premiere.. I think she's guarded with her emotions because of her father leaving her as a kid and then from what happened with her and Cooper at MIT. So while she does love Oliver, she's not ready to admit that yet because at first she thought they would never happen, but then he's telling her he loves her but also telling her he can't be with her ever. 

 

As for Oliver, I have no idea. I want to say he realized the depth of his feelings around 2x07-2x10. His relationship with Sara did throw me off for a bit...as a week after breaking up (and also wanting to move in with her) he was telling Felicity he loved her. 

Edited December 18, 2014 by HighHopes

[KirkB]

On some level I think Felicity has been in lust with Oliver since he first showed up in her office. While the feelings continued to grow I don't think the "I may love him" stuff really started until the "wrong woman" conversation to fool Slade. Even though she realized what he was doing fairly quickly I think it was that moment it really dawned on her that was what she felt. 

 

As for Oliver, I think the "I may love her" first kicked in when he decided to kill the first Count Vertigo. Up until then it was perhaps a distraction he didn't realize was masking deeper feelings. That's what made his "wrong woman" trick work so well with Slade. Seeing Barry with Iris has made him reevaluate his own situation and now he realizes he really does love her but he can't be with her for her own good and because she deserves someone better.

Edited December 18, 2014 by KirkB

[quarks]

I have no idea when Felicity fell in love with Oliver. I think she started to move beyond the "hey, he's really hot," in the first part of "Vertigo" (season one, episode 12) to "hey, this is someone I could really like" in the second part of Vertigo, starting the slow process of falling for him. And I think she was in love with Oliver by the time she rebuilt the Arrow Cave, because that is just a touch more than what people generally do for friends, and definitely by the time she told Oliver "Not for me," in "State vs. Queen,"; being willing to die just so that Oliver doesn't have to deal with the burden of yet another death is at least some sort of love.

 

But I don't think she was acknowledging any of these feelings to herself at that point. I think she had accepted/believed that Oliver didn't feel the same way at all - after all, he'd pretty much been sleeping with everyone else who wasn't her, no matter how questionable those choices - the cop who was pursuing his secret identity, his ex-girlfriend with the lousy history, the woman who tried to take over his company. It's a pretty obvious message of "He's just not that into you," and I think she'd accepted that, until Barry confronted her about liking Oliver despite her denials. In the next episode, there's a significant pause between "Does that mean I have a chance" and "at employee of the month?"  When Oliver not only doesn't take that chance, but brings up Barry and assures her that things will work out there, she seems to accept once again that this isn't going to happen, which allows her to accept Oliver and Sara, and believe that Oliver's statement in the mansion was just a ruse, despite having a few hopes.

 

With Oliver - my reading on this is that he knew damn well he was attracted to her early on, and decided not to go there partly because he needed her on the team and didn't want to complicate things, partly because like Felicity, he was in denial of just how deep those feelings were, mostly because he had decided that because of the life he leads, he can't be with someone he could really care about.  By "Keep Your Enemies Closer" he knew that Felicity was in that category of "really care about."  I think by "Blast Radius" he knew that he was in love with her, but decided he couldn't go there partly because Felicity was clearly attracted to/interested in someone else, but also the whole "I can't be with someone I could rarely care about" thing.

 

And why sleep with Sara after this realization? Well, beyond the meta reason of "hey, we're going to pull one hell of a plot twist in the season finale," for one, as far as he knew, Felicity was interested in Barry.  For two, I think that since he figured things would never work out with Felicity, he should try to move on for both their sakes. There's a hint of this when he's talking to Barry much later, with "That's never going to work out for you, and you need to let her go, for both your sakes."   I think that with both Isabel and Sara he was trying to do this - though with Isabel it was more of trying to deny his feelings and hide them from Isabel/end company gossip, and with Sara it was really trying to move on.

 

I'm probably wrong about all of this :)

[SmallScreenDiva]

This is an excellent, excellent, excellent analysis of the scene between Oliver and Felicity. Far better than anything I've written about it. 

 

X

 

That is beautiful and well-written. And she articulated what is in my head about Felicity's thinking regarding her relationship with Oliver and why she didn't say "I love you" back. The thing with Olicity is that I get frustrated when obstacles are thrown in —like Sara or Ray — because Oliver and Felicity then would have to sometimes act out of character to justify those relationships. And those do not do any of the characters involved any favors. We always complain on this board about the way writers ... well write the show. And with very good reason. Some eps/scenes are choppy, muddled, appear to have no logic in them whatsoever. But with Olicity ... and I'm talking just Oliver and Felicity scenes here, especially the big ones ... they seem to nail those more often than not. It took me a day or two to fully appreciate that scene, just because there was so much going on in that episode and then we got hit by that big whammy at the end.

[quarks]

The thing with Olicity is that I get frustrated when obstacles are thrown in —like Sara or Ray — because Oliver and Felicity then would have to sometimes act out of character to justify those relationships.

 

 

Yeah.

 

I'm braced for a Ray/Felicity relationship in the upcoming episodes. The writers made a point of setting that up, even outside of Oliver/Felicity: the kiss, the way she talked about him at dinner, Felicity reaching out to touch Ray's hand, the way she was looking at Ray in their final scene. And now, of course, they can bond over losing a loved one.  And, from the point of view of racking up the suspense/keeping viewers talking, it works, and I can see it from that point of view completely.

 

But it still annoys me. Partly because I'm not happy that Ray's ongoing boundary breaking is getting played romantically.  Partly because this relationship and even Ray has "Temporary" written all over it, which makes it difficult to get emotionally involved. But mostly because, as I've continued to argue for two seasons now, Oliver and Felicity have enough issues as it is without needing the complication of romantic rivals.  Felicity has a huge fear of abandonment, and falling for someone who could and even just did die at anytime is a huge emotional risk that she might very understandably need to step away from, especially since she already went through this with another guy she cared for. I'm not going to blame her for that. Meanwhile, even apart from Oliver's concern that being with Felicity might and did distract him from Arrow work, putting people at risk, and the concern that Felicity could become a target for Oliver's enemies if these enemies realize how important she is to him (thanks Slade), three of the seven women we've seen Oliver sleep with on the show died violent deaths (Shado, Isabel, Sara); one was badly physically wounded (McKenna); one was badly emotionally wounded to the point of developing a substance abuse problem and taking unsafe risks (Laurel).  There's also the implication that he helped ruin another relationship by sleeping with a woman right after the rehearsal dinner for her wedding.  The only woman that we've seen come off unscathed from this (relatively) is the mother of Oliver's child, who seems to have just been a pre-island one night stand.  And Oliver is pretty emotionally messed up. 

 

I think all that's enough to cause plenty of drama, but I'm still braced for the upcoming Ray/Felicity temporary "it's not May sweeps yet" relationship. Sigh.

[Morrigan2575]

This person on twitter one/bought one of Arrow's production scripts, signed by the cast.  IIRC that was one of SA's recent charity drives 

 

https://twitter.com/ohmyemilybett/status/539255337744740352/photo/1

 

He/She is having an interesting conversation about the Olicity scene but one thing that stood out

 

https://twitter.com/ohmyemilybett/status/545446441590587392

 

@ohmyemilybett: @overdianna sorry, I can't. I will tell you though that the kiss is described in the script as a 'perfect, true love kiss'. :)

[TanyaKay]

True love kiss .... Awwww.

Honestly, I saw all the emotions from Amell in that kiss and how he played Oliver but not much from Felicity/Emily.

[calliope1975]

I'm in the camp that believes that while Felicity does love Oliver, she hasn't admitted that to herself yet/realized it. We left them in 2x23 with her saying that they were "unthinkable" and then we have the premiere.. I think she's guarded with her emotions because of her father leaving her as a kid and then from what happened with her and Cooper at MIT. So while she does love Oliver, she's not ready to admit that yet because at first she thought they would never happen, but then he's telling her he loves her but also telling her he can't be with her ever. 

 

As for Oliver, I have no idea. I want to say he realized the depth of his feelings around 2x07-2x10. His relationship with Sara did throw me off for a bit...as a week after breaking up (and also wanting to move in with her) he was telling Felicity he loved her. 

 

I'm not sure that Felicity has acknowledged the depth of her feelings for Oliver. I think it's going to hit her when he doesn't come back and she's going to be devastated. Especially about not returning the I love you. And that's why I can't see her in a relationship with Ray. I could maybe see a grief stricken hook up, but even that's a stretch. Eventually, sure, if Oliver remained dead, but to just move on right now doesn't make any sense.

 

As for Oliver, I don't think there was one moment that he fell, I think he sauntered into being in love with Felicity (to bastardize Good Omens.) I think he just slowly began to realize that she was everything he didn't think he could have anymore. 

[dtissagirl]

I'm not sure that Felicity has acknowledged the depth of her feelings for Oliver. I think it's going to hit her when he doesn't come back and she's going to be devastated. Especially about not returning the I love you. And that's why I can't see her in a relationship with Ray. I could maybe see a grief stricken hook up, but even that's a stretch. Eventually, sure, if Oliver remained dead, but to just move on right now doesn't make any sense.

 

I completely agree with this, and seriously hope you're right... but I have a but.

 

The problem for me is that this show will go through unnatural inorganic storytelling if it decides to do so for plotty plot reasons.  Oliver/Sara happened exactly like that. I mean. The idea that a grief stricken Felicity will embark on a relationship with a dude who wants to risk his life doing the exact same thing Oliver does, right after Oliver has died, is just preposterous. Nothing about it makes any sense, especially after Secret Origins, and we learning what happened to Cooper, and how Felicity has been "perpetually single" in direct response to his "death".

 

But contrary to Oliver/Sara, which came out of nowhere, to the point where Caity Lotz admitted they weren't playing it romantic at all before the lunge, Felicity/Crazy Eyes is being set up as ~potential romantic partners~, like quarks detailed upthread.  Which, hilariously, is one of the things I think the EPs consider part of the stuff they "learned from their mistakes" in S2 [newsflash: lol no]. So I'm expecting the worst there. I don't want it to happen, it'll make me crawl out of my skin and wish I were dead instead of watching, but I'm assuming crashing positions.

[Password]

I completely agree with this, and seriously hope you're right... but I have a but.

 

The problem for me is that this show will go through unnatural inorganic storytelling if it decides to do so for plotty plot reasons.  Oliver/Sara happened exactly like that. I mean. The idea that a grief stricken Felicity will embark on a relationship with a dude who wants to risk his life doing the exact same thing Oliver does, right after Oliver has died, is just preposterous. Nothing about it makes any sense, especially after Secret Origins, and we learning what happened to Cooper, and how Felicity has been "perpetually single" in direct response to his "death".

Gosh that's so funny I hadn't even thought of that. Why WOULD she embark on anything romantic with someone who could die too? Damn there's some story telling potential there...that the writers WILL IGNORE.

...unreasonably pissed now.

[calliope1975]

I completely agree with this, and seriously hope you're right... but I have a but.

 

The problem for me is that this show will go through unnatural inorganic storytelling if it decides to do so for plotty plot reasons.  

 

Oh I have no doubt this will happen. This season has been full of inane plot at the expense of character, and I don't see TPTB suddenly catching a clue. I often feel like the writers don't know these characters at all. 

[Guest]

When do you think Felicity realized she was in love with Oliver (and not just a harmless crush)?  And when do you think Oliver realized he was in love with Felicity (and not just fond of her as a friend)?  I've been thinking about this and just don't know the answer, so I'd be interested in your thoughts.

 

Like others have said, I believe Felicity has been in love with Oliver for a long time but whether she consciously acknowledged that love is another question. Knowing her insecurities, I think she felt like Oliver wouldn't feel that way about her and so never acknowledged those feelings on a deeper level because what would be the point? She'd only be setting herself up for heartbreak. Even going back to 206 when she said that Oliver deserved better than Isobel, I truly don't think she meant herself. She just loves him on a very selfless level.

 

I think she only started to properly consider her feelings after the s2 finale when she wasn't sure whether Oliver was telling the truth with his 'I love you.' That had to have started the thoughts/questions percolating and then the flirting and growing closer over the five months between seasons probably added to that. Now I think she knows for sure but I doubt she will admit to it when Oliver is so up in the air with being able to fully commit to her, even though he wants to. She's going to need reassurance that he won't leave before she says those words. 

 

As for Oliver, I think a similar thing happened in that he wasn't consciously aware of it until much later in s2. I look at s2 as the season that Oliver fell in love with Felicity. I could reason that he's been falling in love with her ever since they met but s2 saw a definite escalation of that. His reaction to Felicity seeing Isobel leave his hotel room in 206 was probably the first big hint we had that he had feelings deeper than friendship because he was pretty upset that she saw that and wanted to explain himself. Why explain a one night stand to someone who you only consider a friend? You don't. 

 

I also think he shocked himself in 207 with the reaction to the Count kidnapping Felicity. He was clearly shaken when he returned to the courthouse after killing him and I don't think that was simply because he broke his no kill rule. I think that was a combination of how close he came to losing Felicity and maybe that clued him into his feelings a bit more. But the biggest realization of his feelings didn't come until late s2 when Felicity gave him that inspiring 'You are not alone and I believe in you' speech. He was visibly moved by that, by this tiny woman who had stood by him through everything and I think all their moments just kind of hit him in a rush.  It actually baffles me when people say Oliver's feelings came out of nowhere because s2 is just dotted with these small moments that add up to such a subtle love story. It's beautiful and I'm getting mushy now.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Guest

[ostentatious]

I think that Felicity manages to maintain her upbeat attitude by simply deciding what can and cannot be changed, and not wasting her time wishing things could be different. There's nothing Felicity could actually do to make Oliver feel one way or the other about her. From her observations, she believed she was simply not his type. She witnessed Laurel, McKenna, Helena, Sara, Isabel. Leggy model types and athletic tough girls. I suspect if she took a look at Sara in high school she'd see someone a lot closer to herself, but I digress. Anyway, the facts in evidence were that Oliver was *not* asking her out, was *not* trying to take their relationship to a different level, and *was* doing his thing with various women who were not her and weren't anything like her. So why sit around wishing?

 

If she fully accepted her feelings for him, working with him would be too painful for her. I mean, even though we expect him to forgo dating other women, how is she to know that? For all she knows, she'll come in someday and find out he's been seeing...well, Laurel. Why wouldn't he, from Felicity's POV? What if Helena came back around? Why wouldn't he? As far as Felicity knows, he would. Until the end of 309, he had given her nothing to indicate that wasn't the case. I mean, he can't be with someone he really cares about...but then he's with Sara. Mmmkay. He breaks things off with her and the very next thing she has to spend an episode looking at is him physically comforting Laurel but keeping enormous physical distance from her. I'm not saying she was angry or resented him for comforting Laurel, but think about it from her perspective. WE know why he keeps his distance physically. It's because His Body Is Ready. But she doesn't know that. How is she to tell the difference between wanting her so much he has to keep himself 10 feet away from her at all times and just not being into her sexually, even though he likes and cares about her?

 

So I can't blame Felicity for holding back. He's been holding back. WE see the tension there, but she doesn't. She just sees that he stopped touching her shoulders, stopped saying those little things that let her know he admired and appreciated her, stopped giving *her* "Olicity moments." He stopped. From her perspective, Oliver being too into her to let himself near her looks exactly the same as Oliver not being all that into her, period.

[Password]

WE know why he keeps his distance physically. It's because His Body Is Ready.

Thank you for killing me with this. *chortles uncontrollably*

[NumberCruncher]

The mere fact that we're having debates about this makes me happy because, in my mind, there isn't one defining moment when they fell in love--their love had been quietly growing and growing over 2 seasons. It felt natural and realistic and I LOVED that. At first I never understood the criticism that the 3x01 stuff came out of left field because I thought the subtle transition from strangers to friends to partners to lovers was rather beautifully done, but then realized that TV viewers have grown so accustomed to having shows wave a big sign in front of them that "so-and-so will eventually get together" that when given a steady, but quiet relationship development approach like what happened in S1 and S2, they maybe don't process it the same way.

Unfortunately, the showrunners are now falling into the typical cliches this season and running through them at a break-neck pace...tortured hero can't have the girl...check. "Let's bring in the hunky, perfect alternative who magically shares the exact same interests as the heroine"...check. The hero finally tells the heroine he loves her but she doesn't say it back and then he DIES...check. They took a fairly uncomplicated, surprisingly realistic relationship that the audience was positively responding to and made it unnecessarily complex and contrived.

Edited December 18, 2014 by NumberCruncher

[Sakura12]

.tortured hero can't have the girl...check. "Let's bring in the hunky, perfect alternative who magically shares the exact same interests as the heroine"...check. The hero finally tells the heroine he loves her but she doesn't say it back and then he DIES...check.

 

That describes Sara and Oliver's relationship as well, except the hero pretended he was lying about the I love you and did nothing for the next few months. So they also like recycling the plotlines they just used.

[dtissagirl]

I have a friend who quit the show when Oliver and Sara hooked up because she thought the writing was throwing both Sara and Felicity under the bus. Here Oliver had been making goggly eyes at Felicity for 12 and 3/4 episodes, and then he lunged at the other blonde chick? Are women interchangeable for this dude, was my friend's point. And I don't think she's completely wrong.

I mean, about 10 minutes before the lunge, Oliver dragged a giant tire down to the Arrowcave to be all manly and shirtless and HAMMERTIME in front of Felicity, and then got annoyed when she didn't pay attention. And then told Felicity she would never lose him. And then boinked Sara. It's the insane troll logic kind of writing that you need to set up a gotcha! that'll only happen 10 episodes later, but hey, I've never really rewatched anything from 214 to 220, so it's not like it worked for me either. I just stuck with the show because Felicity. My friend just mocks me these days.

[DrSpaceman10]

I have a friend who quit the show when Oliver and Sara hooked up because she thought the writing was throwing both Sara and Felicity under the bus. Here Oliver had been making goggly eyes at Felicity for 12 and 3/4 episodes, and then he lunged at the other blonde chick? Are women interchangeable for this dude, was my friend's point. And I don't think she's completely wrong.

 

I almost quit watching because of that too. If 2x01-2x09 hadn't been so good or if they had been like 2x14-2x20, I would have stopped watching. I really disliked how they lunged out of nowhere after building up Oliver/Felicity for the the first 12 2/3 episodes of the season. Not to mention the fact that Oliver sleeping with both sisters within a year still grosses me out.

 

In the grand scheme of Season 2, that "relationship" just seems so unnecessary. Oliver and Felicity didn't need an external "roadblock" because Oliver is his own roadblock.

 

Don't forget that Oliver (seemingly) knew that Felicity had feelings for him and then he's hooking up with Sara right in front of her. 

Edited December 19, 2014 by drspaceman10

[dtissagirl]

I was always stuck on WHY WOULD SARA EVEN WANT A RELATIONSHIP WITH THIS DUDE more than anything. I guess I can fanwank Oliver's motives because, first and foremost, Sara was awesome, but I'm good with thinking he was sublimating his ever-growing feelings for Felicity, whom he put in a nicely labeled DO NOT TOUCH EVER box, and Sara knew him, and didn't expect anything from him, and Oliver knew Sara was rebounding *hard* after Nyssa.

But Sara's motivation bugs me, because Oliver? Really? After Nyssa? After everything with Laurel? While *seeing* that Oliver and Felicity were dancing around each other? It just felt to me like Sara did not want or need that kind of complication in her life, but here she was, because bad writing.

Edited December 19, 2014 by dancingnancy

[SmallScreenDiva]

Olicity.

 

I don't get that.   Am I the only one who saw Oliver's attraction to Felicity come out of left field?    There was no lead-up, no build.   Oliver was in love with Sara and then, what, Cupid struck? (not Carrie Cupid, but  the mythical Cupid)

 

Not the only one. There are others out there who say the same thing; I know because I see the same statement on other boards and on social media. But I don't think you can claim there's no lead-up or build to this because the show has been laying the foundation for Olicity since "Year's End," winter finale of the first season. This is where we got the "Felicity, you're remarkable" scene. What I love about the buildup for Olicity is that it was gradual, just tiny moments in each episode Felicity appeared in. It built and built until Oliver uttered those fateful words in the Queens mansion during last season's finale. If you're really interested in tracking how the show moved away from other love interests for Oliver and focused on Olicity, you can check out quarks wonderful reviews of the first season. Her review for "Year's End" can be found here.

 

As for the Sara hookup? There are tons of discussion on this very thread about that topic.