Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[statsgirl]

Even thought Flarrowverse is all about the manpain, someone who is supposed to be Felicity's good friend should notice that she's hurting too.

3 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

Does his several protests of "She's not my girlfriend" whenever people brought up the reporter count?

Not for me because it seemed more like he didn't want to be labelled rather than he was struggling to move on.

Even though Felicity was the one to end it (because she thought Oliver would never be the kind of partner she wanted in a forever relationship), we saw her struggle to move on all season.  She couldn't bring herself to tell Oliver she was dating someone else,  and even in 5.x09 she still couldn't call Billy her boyfriend, still could say even casually that she loved him.

If they want me to believe that Oliver loved Felicity the way they were selling it in seasons 3 and 4, I need to see him struggling to move on too,

Spoiler

not being 'all in" which implies that he's all in with a new relationship with Susan.

[apinknightmare]

Felicity struggled with Billy because plot - she couldn't have thought that relationship was real because they needed Oliver to kill the dude and for her not to be too broken up about it. She never indicated she was having difficulty thinking her relationship with Billy was "real" because she was hung up on Oliver.  Oliver's going to go "all in" with Susan for plot - for whatever idiot twist is happening with her investigating him and being an all around shady asshole. 

Neither one of those relationships has anything at all to do with actually moving on from Oliver and Felicity's relationship, so there isn't any struggle there because it isn't about them because these writers are hacks.

Edited January 18, 2017 by apinknightmare

[AyChihuahua]

I think some people can separate the writing from the characters, and some can't. I guess I'm in the can't camp. When Oliver does something stupid, that the writers have decided to have him do for plot reasons, to me it's still Oliver doing something stupid. It's the same with their relationship...Sure Oliver's moving on for plot reasons or noromo reasons or whatever, but what it boils down to is Oliver's moving on.

To me characters primarily ARE their writing. Acting is definitely a big chunk and directing/editing is a small chunk, but writing is the largest.

[lemotomato]

1 hour ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

How is that a struggle to settle in a relationship with someone? They weren't even dating at that point.

If only 509 counts, then what relationship have we seen so far? They've been to one party together (which may or may not be part of her work, if she's reporting on it) and he's shown up at her doorstep when he was distraught and guilty and felt like didn't have anywhere else to go because he thought he ruined everyone's life. He seems to be dating her just because she's in his face all the time and he's too dumb to realize she's being nice to him just to write her story.

[Midnight Lullaby]

13 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

If only 509 counts, then what relationship have we seen so far? They've been to one party together (which may or may not be part of her work, if she's reporting on it) and he's shown up at her doorstep when he was distraught and guilty and felt like didn't have anywhere else to go because he thought he ruined everyone's life. He seems to be dating her just because she's in his face all the time and he's too dumb to realize she's being nice to him just to write her story.

I have no idea why he is dating her but I see them together and that's not how I pictured Oliver trying to be in a new relationship after his break up with Felicity.

[apinknightmare]

56 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

I think some people can separate the writing from the characters, and some can't. I guess I'm in the can't camp. When Oliver does something stupid, that the writers have decided to have him do for plot reasons, to me it's still Oliver doing something stupid. It's the same with their relationship...Sure Oliver's moving on for plot reasons or noromo reasons or whatever, but what it boils down to is Oliver's moving on.

To me characters primarily ARE their writing. Acting is definitely a big chunk and directing/editing is a small chunk, but writing is the largest.

My point (which I didn't make very clearly) wasn't so much about explaining character actions away because of plot, it was more that I don't think there's anything to look into regarding Oliver and Felicity's feelings for each other because the story about them dating other people isn't about them moving on, it's about the people that they're moving on with. 

[apinknightmare]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

Not for me because it seemed more like he didn't want to be labelled rather than he was struggling to move on.

Even though Felicity was the one to end it (because she thought Oliver would never be the kind of partner she wanted in a forever relationship), we saw her struggle to move on all season.  She couldn't bring herself to tell Oliver she was dating someone else,  and even in 5.x09 she still couldn't call Billy her boyfriend, still could say even casually that she loved him.

If they want me to believe that Oliver loved Felicity the way they were selling it in seasons 3 and 4, I need to see him struggling to move on too,

Not to be argumentative, but I'm genuinely curious - where in the show was there any indication that Felicity was struggling to move on from Oliver rather than struggling to make something work with a guy she just didn't have feelings for? She never indicated she had any residual feelings for Oliver, never indicated that she had any desire to be with him at all, and turned him down when he asked about it. She definitely had trouble committing to Billy, but that seemed like her own issue, not something that related to getting past her relationship with Oliver. 

I mean, I think Oliver is a dumbass for letting anything happen with Susan at all, but if he winds up trying to have a real relationship with her and winds up telling her he's the Green Arrow (which is dumb dumb dumb as hell, but that's not the point), he didn't do anything at all different than Felicity did? 

[statsgirl]

I think the idea of Felicity struggling to move on from Oliver is partly in EBR's acting (the scenes in 5x05), partly in the script (the inability to tell Oliver she was dating someone else (if it really wasn't about struggling to move on from Oliver, why did she have trouble telling him about Billy?  why did she have so much trouble introducing him to her friends even after he pushed for it?), and partly from an interview EBR gave when she said that Felicity thought Oliver was the love of her life and she needed to find out if there could be someone else for her.  I know, interviews don't really count.  But if Felicity's problem was that she couldn't commit to Billy rather than she couldn't move on from Oliver, why not introduce him to her friends?  It only needed to be a casual relationship to be accepted by them.

I agree, there wasn't much about Billy in terms of who Felicity chose, other than he's a good guy and like Oliver and Ray, he wants to make Star City safer for people to live in.  He was there as a sacrificial lamb so Oliver could feel bad about it, and hopefully propel Felicity into an arc the rest of the season,

But with Oliver, he's deliberately dating a woman who's shady, who has told him she's trying to dig up dirt on  him, and who has stabbed Thea in the back.  Picking her to date is not only about what bad things she's up to as a character, it makes him a dumbass and worse, someone who is careless with protecting the people on his team, both Arrow and mayoral.  So while it didn't matter much who Felicity dated, it matters a lot who Oliver is dating now.

[LeighAn]

I feel like this boils down to whether your an Oliver stan or a Felicity stan which maybe means people perceive even the most innocuous things happening in the show through a bias or allegiance to one character over the other. 

Just like I maybe veiw the show through a bias or allegiance to Olicity when I say that I can see subtle hints that Oliver and Felicity aren't unaffected by the other when you have Felicity making slight jealous jokes about Olivers "girlfriend" and commenting on how hot she is like she's done with Laurel in the past or awkwardly babbling about going on a double date to pretend she's fine with Oliver and Susan. Or how Oliver refers to Billy not by name but as "the person your dating" or the fact that he gets visibly annoyed and upset that Felicity keeps jabbing him about Susan etc.

Ultimately right now Billy and Susan are cock blocks or relationship stalls for Olicity but aren't being written as any kind of statement on Oliver and Felicitys relationship with each other or their love for each other because the writers aren't focusing on Oliver and Felicitys relationship overtly right now. That will hopefully come in 5B or worst case next season. Right now the  love interests serve the purpose of justifying to the audience why Oliver and Felicity aren't back together because there's not a lot of reason why they shouldn't be at this point while also serving other plot necessities like having Oliver accidentally on purpose kill one of them and feel all broken up about it and have one of them investigate Olivers past and expose his coverup of what he did the five years he was gone so Oliver can feel all broken up about being exposed by some he thought he could trust. 

Personally I don't need Oliver and Felicity to date or reject someone else as proof of their love for each other. I'd much rather they work out what they need to work out between themselves regardless of any flings or temporary rebound relationships.

[apinknightmare]

17 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I think the idea of Felicity struggling to move on from Oliver is partly in EBR's acting (the scenes in 5x05), partly in the script (the inability to tell Oliver she was dating someone else (if it really wasn't about struggling to move on from Oliver, why did she have trouble telling him about Billy?  why did she have so much trouble introducing him to her friends even after he pushed for it?)

I would say that Felicity probably had a hard time telling Oliver that she had a boyfriend because she thought it would hurt him since he was the one who wanted to get back together and she was the one who didn't, and had difficulty introducing him as her boyfriend to pretty much anyone because she just wasn't into him? Because lingering feelings for Oliver wouldn't really affect how she introduced Billy to people who weren't Oliver.

17 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

But with Oliver, he's deliberately dating a woman who's shady, who has told him she's trying to dig up dirt on  him, and who has stabbed Thea in the back.  Picking her to date is not only about what bad things she's up to as a character, it makes him a dumbass and worse, someone who is careless with protecting the people on his team, both Arrow and mayoral.  So while it didn't matter much who Felicity dated, it matters a lot who Oliver is dating now.

But what does who either of them choose to date have to do with their feelings for each other? It seems as if the argument here is Felicity moving on is okay because she chose a good person to move on with, and Oliver moving on is not okay because he didn't choose a good person to move on with (as far as we know). I'm seriously not advocating for Oliver's choice in mate here - it is stupid, and it is reckless (I also think Felicity telling Billy she was working with the Green Arrow - in a police station no less - was reckless, it just worked out in her favor). I just seriously am not connecting the dots between their feelings for each other and their choice of boyfriend/girlfriend.

Edited January 18, 2017 by apinknightmare

[dtissagirl]

12 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Because lingering feelings for Oliver wouldn't really affect how she introduced Billy to people who weren't Oliver.

I think this is a writing a character into a corner situation, because it just so happens that every single person Felicity knows also knows Oliver, and if she's avoiding telling him, every person she tells comes with an awkward conversation about "please don't tell Oliver?" So imo her hiding Mayo from everyone = hiding Mayo from Oliver.

Edited January 18, 2017 by dtissagirl

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I think this is a writing a character into a corner situation, because it just so happens that every single person Felicity knows also knows Oliver, and if she's avoiding telling him, every person she tells comes with an awkward conversation about "please don't tell Oliver?" So imo her hiding Mayo from everyone = hiding Mayo from Oliver.

Good point. 

And also I took that as her having trouble introducing Billy to her friends as her boyfriend (which she also seemed to struggle with), not actually introducing him to her friends, haha. So never mind!

[statsgirl]

That very awkward moment after Oliver's toast at the Christmas party when both Felicity and Susan "claimed" him, I took as Felicity having difficulty moving on past their old romantic relationship.   Felicity's worried "Where's Oliver?" when they get back from finding out Evelyn is working with Prometheus.  There's also her reluctance to tell anyone about Billy until she knows if it's "real".  If she's really over Oliver, why does it matter if her relationship with the next guy she dates is real or not?  She's over Oliver.

2 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

It seems as if the argument here is Felicity moving on is okay because she chose a good person to move on with, and Oliver moving on is not okay because he didn't choose a good person to move on with (as far as we know).

I took it as Felicity is making a genuine attempt to move on into a real relationship after Oliver with a person she could have something longterm with, while Oliver is just jumping into the first thing he finds, or who finds him, no matter how many warning signals there are around her.  Maybe I'm supposed to think that Oliver doesn't care who he sleeps with if it's not Felicity but I'm not seeing that right now.   It's like Oliver has decided he's moving on to a new relationship and he doesn't care who it's with.  Every Oliver beat since 5x05 has had Felicity friend-zoned without regrets while Felicity keeps stumbling around it .  That's why I get the impression that Felicity is struggling to move on and Oliver isn't.

The police station was a stupid place to tell Billy but the show didn't want to spend any more time, or sets, on it than they had to.

Edited January 19, 2017 by statsgirl

[apinknightmare]

21 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

If she's really over Oliver, why does it matter if her relationship with the next guy she dates is real or not?  She's over Oliver.

She didn't say it mattered to her if it was real or not, she told Oliver she was waiting to tell him until she knew whether it was real or not. That to me indicates that she cared a lot about how he'd take the news and that she knew he might not be over her - it doesn't really say anything about her feelings toward him. 

Quote

I took it as Felicity is making a genuine attempt to move on into a real relationship after Oliver with a person she could have something longterm with, while Oliver is just jumping into the first thing he finds, or who finds him, no matter how many warning signals there are around her.  Maybe I'm supposed to think that Oliver doesn't care who he sleeps with if it's not Felicity but I'm not seeing that right now.   It's like Oliver has decided he's moving on to a new relationship and he doesn't care who it's with. 

At this point Oliver hasn't done anything other than casually date Susan and kiss her after an ill-advised confession session post-murder. Not the greatest beginning, but we didn't see Felicity and Billy's - she could've ran into him and thought, "sure, why not?" and had a casual fling with him before deciding to try for something more. Again, I'm not arguing that Oliver is choosing the right partner but how does the partner either Felicity or Oliver choose reflect at all on their feelings for each other? Felicity is not available to Oliver right now - she has made that quite clear. She's not an option and as far as he knows - based on what she's told him - she isn't ever going to be an option for him again. What does it matter who he dates, or whether it's casual or not? He can't date Felicity.

21 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

The police station was a stupid place to tell Billy but the show didn't want to spend any more time, or sets, on it than they had to.

She could've told him at her apartment - he had a key, and seemed to spend a lot of time there. 

Edited January 19, 2017 by apinknightmare

[insomniadreams88]

23 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

The police station was a stupid place to tell Billy but the show didn't want to spend any more time, or sets, on it than they had to.

I feel like the show just wanted to keep reminding us that he's a detective ... even though that's pretty much all we knew about him. Basically it was, "He's a detective, so he's going to do his own investigating in 509, which is going to lead to his death." They didn't care about developing his character - or Felicity's relationship with him - beyond that. 

25 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

That very awkward moment after Oliver's toast at the Christmas party when both Felicity and Susan "claimed" him, I took as Felicity having difficulty moving on past their old romantic relationship.

Yeah, considering Felicity automatically stepped forward to tell him "great speech" without even thinking about Billy? All Billy did was stand there for the whole awkward "double date" chat. Did he even say anything? That and the look at the red pen, leading into the flashback. I think the information part of the flashback was for Oliver, but the Oliver/Felicity of it was definitely for Felicity. 

[statsgirl]

Didn't Felicity tell Billy that she was working with the Arrow because she wanted access to some police info or evidence?  Without his insistence on knowing why, she wouldn't have told him even then.  That's why it wouldn't have worked in the apartment.

[insomniadreams88]

1 minute ago, statsgirl said:

Didn't Felicity tell Billy that she was working with the Arrow because she wanted access to some police info or evidence?  Without his insistence on knowing why, she wouldn't have told him even then.  That's why it wouldn't have worked in the apartment.

Wasn't it after she stole evidence off his desk, which was after Diggle basically told her to tell him? (And I think that's the only conversation Felicity and Diggle have had this season, which is just so sad.)

[apinknightmare]

5 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Didn't Felicity tell Billy that she was working with the Arrow because she wanted access to some police info or evidence?  Without his insistence on knowing why, she wouldn't have told him even then.  That's why it wouldn't have worked in the apartment.

It would've worked wherever the writers wanted it to, and they wanted her to tell him in a police station.

And if she was going to continue to keep her secret from Billy if her hand wasn't forced, doesn't that indicate that this relationship was casual for her too? Either she's genuinely trying to move on and taking steps toward that with someone she's committed to and trusts and wants to share with, or she's just casually dating (like Oliver), and trying to see who fits. 

Billy seemed to come out on the casual side of things IMO. 

Edited January 19, 2017 by apinknightmare

[ladylaw99]

My head hurts from this hot mess.

[statsgirl]

2 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

I also think Felicity telling Billy she was working with the Green Arrow - in a police station no less - was reckless,

The writers wanted to set up a situation where Felicity was forced to tell Billy that she was working with the Green Arrow and they set it in the police station.  It's not like she deliberately chose to tell him and picked the police station to do it in.

[lemotomato]

24 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Billy seemed to come out on the casual side of things IMO. 

The chatty barista at the Starbucks I go to once in a week knows more about what's going on in my life than Billy knew about Felicity's.

Edited January 19, 2017 by lemotomato

[ladylaw99]

That is why for me these are not real relationships. Just friends with benefits. 

[apinknightmare]

11 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

The writers wanted to set up a situation where Felicity was forced to tell Billy that she was working with the Green Arrow and they set it in the police station.  It's not like she deliberately chose to tell him and picked the police station to do it in.

If the writers wanted to, they could have had her put it off to tell him at the apartment. I really don't care where she told him btw, I only addressed your comment about them setting the scene in the police station for outside reasons because of the conversation upthread about not using outside reasons as excuses for poor character decisions.

[BkWurm1]

Quote

 

So my question is, why pick her [Susan] to have a relationship with? To be the person he goes to when he's feeling bad?  Why not just go for a bunch of meaningless dates with the many women who want to date Mayor Handsome?

He may not be building a life with her but he did pick her as the woman he wants to have a relationship with now

 

 

6 hours ago, statsgirl said:

 

But with Oliver, he's deliberately dating a woman who's shady, who has told him she's trying to dig up dirt on  him, and who has stabbed Thea in the back.  Picking her to date is not only about what bad things she's up to as a character, it makes him a dumbass and worse, someone who is careless with protecting the people on his team, both Arrow and mayoral.  So while it didn't matter much who Felicity dated, it matters a lot who Oliver is dating now.

I think I've settled on that the reason why Oliver is dating Susan is because she's a terrible choice.

 It very well maybe unintentional, but unconscious or not, talk about setting the relationship up to fail.  His sister hates her, she and Quentin warned him and Susan is a reporter happy to do a hatchet job on him.  Add in that he didn't have to do the flirting to get her number and Susan reaching out to him so he doesn't have to actually go looking for a real option.  So she's perfect if he's self sabotaging.  

[Midnight Lullaby]

For me it's not that I view Felicity dating Mayo as different from Oliver dating Susan. It's that after what he did last year to still want them together I needed him to either 1- apologize 2- care about what was going on in her life 3- struggle to be with someone else. It's his indifference on top of what he did last year that made me give up. If they broke up for another reason I still wouldn't like temporary LIs but they wouldn't be such a deal breaker. And I know it's the writers that are incompetent to blame for this mess but I watch what's on screen and that makes me wish they would write an amazing story for Felicity and forget about her relationship with Oliver. And it's sad to me because it was one of the things I loved about the show.

[kismet]

19 hours ago, AyChihuahua said:

That's basically saying "there's no evidence...except for these two large pieces of evidence that I don't like." HOWEVER, I know you're not the only person who just doesn't want to think that about Oliver and so mentally deletes it. I'm sure I do the same with some tv characters I love. Veronica Mars, for example.

Thanks, but I honestly believe that evidence is inconclusive. So for me, it's not definitive. Back & forth is not specific enough language. Sometimes people use back & forth to indicate a conversation. And just because Thea was with him in the crossover doesn't mean he can't reference it to her. But like I said before, these visits are not confirmed by anything in show beyond that line. MG post-script interview is not canon.

For argument's sake, let's say he did go to CC. Maybe he was going to speak to a lawyer or try to convince BM to change her mind. SO not a bad thing, nor does it means he loves FS any less. If FS was in rehab, he couldn't stay with her every minute of the day anyway per most rehab policies. So maybe he did both visit & support FS, while also visiting CC to figure out son drama. Heck, do we even know how far away CC? Maybe it's a quick train ride, flight or drive, it never seems to take them long to get there. He could be spending quality time with both. And also FS didn't seem surprised by his statement, so maybe she knew that he was working on something in CC and that was enough for her. She never used the "visits" against him.

I'm not going to use inconclusive evidence against OQ, when frankly he's done enough dumb things onscreen to be frustrated with. But people can believe what they want to believe. There is evidence both ways. I also don't think it fundamentally changes anything, since the main reason they broke up was OQ not trusting FS with the truth about William at some major moments like when MM found out. FS would have walked away "visits" or no "visits".

Edited January 19, 2017 by kismet

[Sunshine]

Not sure if this is the right place but I think Oliver & Felicity's S5 relationship is supposed to be like S1 Oliver & Laurel but without the acrimony. Some obstacle they can't overcome so they both try to move on. Oliver's reaction to Billy is a lot like his reaction to Laurel & Tommy as in none really. I just want you to be happy.

Susan Williams is a combo of Isabel & McKenna Hall.  

Spoiler

If she is in the limo in 5.15 I won't be surprised if she doesn't die but leaves for extended rehab in another city.

Billy only = Tommy as dying and Oliver blaming himself. He also reported directly to the Mayor's office as part of the task force although we never saw it.

Oliver & Wild Dog = Oliver & Roy.

Thea is S2 Thea Verdant/Mayor's office and S1 Laurel regarding Lance and drinking .

Curtis has taken on some of the narrative purpose of both Diggle & Felicity.

[kismet]

6 minutes ago, Sunshine said:

Not sure if this is the right place but I think Oliver & Felicity's S5 relationship is supposed to be like S1 Oliver & Laurel but without the acrimony. Some obstacle they can't overcome so they both try to move on. Oliver's reaction to Billy is a lot like his reaction to Laurel & Tommy as in none really. I just want you to be happy.

Susan Williams is a combo of Isabel & McKenna Hall.  

  Reveal hidden contents

If she is in the limo in 5.15 I won't be surprised if she doesn't die but leaves for extended rehab in another city.

Billy only = Tommy as dying and Oliver blaming himself. He also reported directly to the Mayor's office as part of the task force although we never saw it.

Oliver & Wild Dog = Oliver & Roy.

Thea is S2 Thea Verdant/Mayor's office and S1 Laurel regarding Lance and drinking .

Curtis has taken on some of the narrative purpose of both Diggle & Felicity.

Sorta agree with this. However, s5 players & scenes are weak imitations of s1/2. I don't know if its because I've known the characters for 4+ years now that I expect more from them or if it's because the writers are just not writing them well anymore. Or maybe its too much rinse/repeat with poor quality characters. Seriously, I can't think of one new character role that was not played better by their narrative predecessor. And if all the new characters were to vanish, I don't think the show would lack much.

As for OQ & FS, I'm not even feeling the he just wants her to be happy vibe. SA sold the shit out of that in s3, that there was this obstacle (being GA) that kept him from being with FS. So he wanted her to just be happy and him not being with her was in his mind necessary for that. This season, I frankly don't even think FS or OQ care if the other one is happy. They are just work colleagues that interact when the script demands it, minus the 1 or 2 poignant convos they had this season. They haven't indicated that either has moved on or not, rather its like the last 2 yrs of their romantic feelings just don't exist anymore. So what are they moving on from?

I do get a lot of Roy/OQ from GA/WD (even Dig/WD); the major difference being CH always made Roy likeable. I never felt like Roy was ever desperately needed in any scenes in s1-s2, but I was never really upset by his presence. Wild Dog just annoys me and I want him out of majority of scenes they write him in. He doesn't just have a muddled narrative presence, he also has a major unlikeable quality about him and not in a good way.

I think the motto of "back to basics" got translated into let's do everything we did in s1/2 and just change the characters names. If the s5 finale its revealed that this was all a dream or has BA resetting the timeline ~ narratively (esp. for relationships), I think we would be in the same spot as the s4 finale - give or take a few broken windows.

[Sunshine]

31 minutes ago, kismet said:

 Is5 players & scenes are weak imitations of s1/2. I don't know if its because I've known the characters for 4+ years now that I expect more from them or if it's because the writers are just not writing them well anymore. Or maybe its too much rinse/repeat with poor quality characters. Seriously, I can't think of one new character role that was not played better by their narrative predecessor. 

I think the motto of "back to basics" got translated into let's do everything we did in s1/2 and just change the characters names. 

I agree with these statements.  I would like this show better if it was S1 and not S5 and I had no expectations based on what these characters and their relationships were like prior to 5.01.  It's been like watching reruns but with characters I have no investment in.

[bijoux]

I never want to draw any parallels between Oliver and Felicity, and S1 Oliver and Laurel.

[Sunshine]

I'd rather not but I have trouble not seeing them.  

[kismet]

4 minutes ago, Sunshine said:

I'd rather not but I have trouble not seeing them.  

For me it's not so much seeing them. As much as I can identify certain relationship and character beats that were made for OQ/LL, that they just filled in with OQ/FS after they ditched OQ/LL. They went with a different model but kept the old instruction manual.

I still think one of the major errors of BMD is that it was a tailor-made storyline for OQ/LL, fit their relationship perfectly which is why it was so ill fitting on OQ/FS. The writers need to learn that not all trajectories or plot points are one size fits all. OQ/FS and OQ/LL are two completely different types of relationships.

[ohjoy]

1 hour ago, kismet said:

I still think one of the major errors of BMD is that it was a tailor-made storyline for OQ/LL, fit their relationship perfectly which is why it was so ill fitting on OQ/FS. The writers need to learn that not all trajectories or plot points are one size fits all. OQ/FS and OQ/LL are two completely different types of relationships.

ITA, and if I think about it honestly, that is the main reason I was so disappointed with the BMD storyline, and much of what has come after. It's not even a Because Comics thing -- it's that, after all the talk about forging their own path with the show, the writers/showrunners literally can't be bothered to write for what's in front of them. Even when the BMD tanked, their response was to get rid of everything that would have required forward thinking and changing the plan to fit the story that was unfolding. Instead, they changed (and in some cases, got rid of) characters and their development simply so they could reset back to what sort of not really fit the plan that was not created for any of the characters that were currently involved. (No, not even this Oliver fit their plan -- he was on the verge of becoming too mature and emotionally stable to fit where they wanted him to be at this stage of the show.)

Edited January 19, 2017 by RandomMe

[statsgirl]

Not adapting the BMD storyline to fit Oliver & Felicity was very lazy writing.  Oliver lying to Laurel and hiding things from her was 'same old, same old' and fit.   But Felicity could always see through his lies so the whole thing is ridiculous unless she lost her lie detector along with the use of her legs..

6 hours ago, kismet said:

This season, I frankly don't even think FS or OQ care if the other one is happy. They are just work colleagues that interact when the script demands it, minus the 1 or 2 poignant convos they had this season.

I'm not seeing this in the writing but I think SA and EBR are saying it in their acting. 

With all their talk about "writing to their chemistry", I think the writers have just given up writing anything about their relationship at all other than coming up with ways to keep them apart and left it to the chemistry to get all the work done.

16 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I think I've settled on that the reason why Oliver is dating Susan is because she's a terrible choice.

You may have just found the only way that doesn't make Oliver look like a complete moron.  it does make him look self-defeating but that's our Oliver.

[tv echo]

I think the problem is that the head EPs are all so busy with multiple projects that they just don't have the time to devote much thought or attention to Arrow. So they fall back on pre-planned story arcs or comics-based stories.

Edited January 20, 2017 by tv echo

[kismet]

3 hours ago, tv echo said:

I think the problem is that the head EPs are all so busy with multiple projects that they just don't have the time to devote much thought or attention to Arrow. So they fall back on pre-planned story arcs or comics-based stories.

Very generous of you. :) I do believe that could be part of the problem. However, I think they also just have a fundamental level of stubbornness and stupidity to them. And their egos are the greatest limiting factor to their writing.

[tv echo]

It puzzled me that Oliver said to Felicity (in 510): "You know me better than almost anyone."  Almost anyone? They were engaged, traveled together and lived together last year.  Shouldn't she know him better than anyone else at this point?  Who knows him better than Felicity?

Not Laurel.  She may have believed that she knew him "in your bones." But according to Oliver, she didn't really know the present day Oliver because he wasn't the man she fell in love with.

Diggle? He's Oliver's best friend, but he never lived with Oliver - and does a best friend know someone better than a live-in fiancee?

Thea? She's known Oliver the longest. But again, does a sibling know someone better than a live-in fiancee?

So who knows present day, adult Oliver better than Felicity? The only answer that would make sense is Oliver himself. However, I don't think that's who the writers meant. So I'm curious as to who they think knows Oliver best.

Edited January 26, 2017 by tv echo

[Midnight Lullaby]

Prometheus? 

[apinknightmare]

His current lady love Star City. 

#OliCity4ever

[calliope1975]

With the irritated mini-fight/conflict filled with sexual tension that I saw on my screen last night, I really, really want an eventual blow out argument followed by wall sex. Give it to meeee, Show!!!

[ladylaw99]

I swear I am going to have a love/hate relationship with Olicity.  This is what annoys me.  Not just a week ago I sworn these writers ruined this relationship for me and then last night happens and it reminds me why I liked the relationship in the first place.

I would love to get excited again but in the back of my mind I know the reporter is still around. How am I suppose to believe there is any connection between those two (Oliver and reporter) after last night.

SA and EBR  work so well together.  

This is the Felicity I love, the one who doesn't take anyone's crap, strong, funny, smart and in the field.  This arc so far for me is working.  All it is missing is Diggle and then I will be in heaven again.

I need my OTA, Olicity for me is a bonus.

[LeighAn]

5 hours ago, calliope1975 said:

With the irritated mini-fight/conflict filled with sexual tension that I saw on my screen last night, I really, really want an eventual blow out argument followed by wall sex. Give it to meeee, Show!!!

If only this were a Shonda show sigh. We'd of got angry wall sex if this were a Shonda show. 

[bijoux]

5 hours ago, calliope1975 said:

With the irritated mini-fight/conflict filled with sexual tension that I saw on my screen last night, I really, really want an eventual blow out argument followed by wall sex. Give it to meeee, Show!!!

There's no way this isn't gonna come out dirty, so I'm just gonna say it.

Service me, show!

[statsgirl]

9 hours ago, ladylaw99 said:

I would love to get excited again but in the back of my mind I know the reporter is still around. How am I suppose to believe there is any connection between those two (Oliver and reporter) after last night.

There's a sex connection ........

At the risk of being overly optimistic, they deliberately put in Oliver and Felicity getting along and Oliver saying Felicity knows him so well when he's dating Susan to show how unimportant Susan really is

[Midnight Lullaby]

I don't think they were considering Susan when writing the Oliver/Felicity scene..it's just that one relationship is obviously unimportant and the other supposedly is since those two people have known each other for 5 years and were engaged to be married. The weirdness is when they make them act like strangers so they don't overshadow their other relationships.

[Morrigan2575]

Honestly I think they have to, EBR and SA's chemistry is palpable, even when writing them as friends/partners/ex's there's undeniable chemistry between the 2 actors.

If the show is trying to sell that they aren't in a relationship or that they're in relationships with other people (for whatever reason) they kind of have to limit their interaction because its kind of all encompassing.

I don't think (and have never thought) that Olicity was dead, dead, dead or in any sense of trouble. Oliver/Susan and Felicity/Billy were not about relationships or characters, they were/ate about setting up a plot.

For Felicity, obviously Billy's death is part of what spurs her dark arc.

For Oliver I have no idea what plot they have in mind for that relationship.

[rtalive]

I am really confused by Felicity's feelings towards Billy too. It clearly seemed that she cares for him, because it was important for her, more than anything to get to Prometheus. He was not just a casual relationship. She was deeply hurt from his lost, more than she was hurt from loosing a friend.

But on the other hand she just can't admit that to Oliver, I guess she does not want to hurt his feelings, but he already knows, that she moved on, and that she cared for Billy. So what is so difficult to just speak to him and tell him that his pain towards Laurel is equal to her pain towards Billy and they should figure a way out to catch Prometheus and try redeem BS.

[Midnight Lullaby]

I don't understand why they should try to redeem BS? Because she looks like LL? So if Prometheus goes to a plastic surgeon and ends up looking like Oliver we try to save him too? She spent the whole episode trying to emotionally manipulate them or kill them. She is a villain with LL's face. She is dangerous and didn't show genuine feelings towards any of them or a hint of remorse for what she has done.

[CooperTV]

12 minutes ago, rtalive said:

She was deeply hurt from his lost, more than she was hurt from loosing a friend.

There's a leap of logic in this that implies that Felicity's friends she wasn't romantically involved with are not as important to her as her romantic partners. This is simply not true, nor it ever should be for anyone. I'm pretty sure she'd be livid and take scorched earth approach if John Diggle was killed by Prometheus, and Oliver would do the same, for example.

I'm also not sure how Oliver's guilt over Laurel's death (that manifested itself in Oliver once again being naive and wanting redeem himself through possible redemption of other people, as it was spelled out by Felicity this episode) has anything to do with Felicity's feelings towards Billy's death she had no part in.

[ComicFan777]

I don't think Felicity cared about Billy as much as you would think.  She cares about him probably as much as she cares about any of her friends.  I mean, she even had trouble calling him her boyfriend.  Billy was just a distraction from dealing with everything she has gone through.  

I think his death was simply the straw that broke the camel's back after a long string of bad things that happened to her because of villain manipulation.