Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[TimetravellingBW]

4 hours ago, Angel12d said:

I think they skipped the flirty build up because they wanted Oliver in a certain mindset in s3 where he felt he had nothing, and that includes Felicity. He couldn't have been all 'I'm gonna die down here' if he was flirting with Felicity. I get why they did it for their season plan. I wish they hadn't though. I think there could have been better ways to stall Olicity without making them bitter. 

 

4 hours ago, NumberCruncher said:

Because in their minds drama and angst = good TV.  They so love to portray their show as dark so that they can make their little version of pseudo-Batman.  I don't think they throw the angsty stuff in because they think it's lovey-dovey romantic.  They throw it in because it has to fit the "edgy", sad bastard narrative they've been telling for 4 years.

4 hours ago, lemotomato said:

They skipped the flirty/slow burn stuff because once they picked Olicity as the show's OTP (I hate the term "endgame") the Arrow writers started treating Olicity as though it were a comic-based romance. Comic canon romances let the TV writers skip all the steps of establishing the couple on screen because the audience is supposed to know that they're destined to be together (See: Oliver/Laurel and Barry/Iris on Flash). All that's left for the writers to do is to keep throwing problems at them, breaking them up and getting them back together while taking up the least screentime possible.

That's all super interesting and believable that the writers sat down and decided to shift to Olicity...but because they needed to facilitate S3's (TERRIBLE) plot and that melodrama is good, Olicity was written as a star-crossed, on/off, angst couple rather than what they started as. But that's fine because that's how Comic Book couples work. Given the dip in quality in S3 and that the whole show became more angsty, I suspect MG taking complete control and not having AK and GB to bounce ideas off impacted Olicity too.

4 hours ago, RandomMe said:

I think the black hole of chemistry between SA/KC somewhat blinded the writers and showrunners to the fact that the manufactured angst they had planned for their main ship was not a good draw, and in fact was a deterrent, especially considering the personality of character they used to replace one of the key players in that plan.

4 hours ago, lemotomato said:

The problem with this writing method is that it's completely unsuitable for Olicity, because a) No one assumes they will be endgame, since they don't have Because Comics history to fall back on, so they should have gotten more establishing moments before the drama kicked in and b) Felicity isn't the typical superhero love interest, who usually isn't directly involved in his mission. Since she's a part of the day-to-day superhero-ing, any romantic drama affects the main storyline too and is magnified, leading to accusations that "Olicity is taking over the show". It's a problem I'm afraid will not go away, since the writers/EPs seem to be repeating their mistakes from season 3 in 4B. Either they didn't learn their lesson or they're just incapable of writing/planning for a couple that developed organically.

Also this ^ I think the writers blamed 95% of Lauriver failing on the chemistry. But the writing was just as big a problem - if not bigger. Somehow the writers seem to think sticking SA/EBR chemistry with Lauriver style writing is A+ work. 

I mean they're not writing episode for episode their original Lauriver plan, but aspects definitely carried over. The S3 "I can't be with you because of my life!" and S4 BMD both feel like they're lifted out of the Lauriver relationship. Because Laurel wasn't traditionally part of Oliver's team, the argument that he "has to keep his distance" makes more sense, while Felicity has been his partner for years, so has always been impacted by his work. The BMD would have  brought up Lauriver history and Oliver's cheating, so him hiding his son feels more logical. (Though still stupid.) With Felicity, she had no reason to judge him so they had to pretzel Oliver into lying.

And agree with @lemotomato that there are more complaints about Olicity is taking over the show than Lauriver (even though Lauriver was far worse for melodrama) because Felicity has always been more central and actually impacted Oliver, while Laurel when she was the LI could pop up, snip at him and then go sit in a corner for the episode.

Edited May 17, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[Midnight Lullaby]

I might be the exception because I didn't see this great chemistry between SA and CL, hahaha. As friends and team mates yes, definitely, but I thought not that good when they were playing a couple. For example that scene they were in bed together at the hotel they both looked so stiff with the body language even if the conversation was relaxed that it pulled me out of the scene.

I think SA had good chemistry with the actresses that played Helena and Isabel, great with EBR, bad with McKenna and terrible with KC and Poppy, like I want to cover my eyes in embarrassment terrible. I will never forget their supposed epic kiss in the season one finale where I don't even know what he was doing with his hands to avoid touching her.

[bijoux]

1 minute ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I might be the exception because I didn't see this great chemistry between SA and CL, hahaha. As friends and team mates yes, definitely, but I thought not that good when they were playing a couple. For example that scene they were in bed together at the hotel they both looked so stiff with the body language even if the conversation was relaxed that it pulled me out of the scene.

I thought this worked for their character beats. They were together for comfort and support but neither was actually present.

I also fall on the side of Oliver and Felicity having sexual chemistry, the show just chose to play more romantic beats with them. The already brought up "I believe you ordered the crate of stolen military weapons, Mr Queen." and the fight in Blast Radius are lit.

[Midnight Lullaby]

17 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I thought this worked for their character beats. They were together for comfort and support but neither was actually present.

I also fall on the side of Oliver and Felicity having sexual chemistry, the show just chose to play more romantic beats with them. The already brought up "I believe you ordered the crate of stolen military weapons, Mr Queen." and the fight in Blast Radius are lit.

 

 

I was talking about something different though..that I saw more "heat" in his scenes in bed and while kissing the actress playing Helena. I didn't see much "sexual chemistry" like others did between SA and CL because they seemed to me they were playing Oliver and Sara as friends (very well) that occasionally slept together without much passion between them. 

I also think SA and EBR have sexual, not only romantic chemistry from the scenes where Oliver and Felicity argue mainly, haha. I thought the one you posted about them arguing over Barry and the other in season 1 where he tried to intimidate her and she told him she quit were pretty hot. Also there's the sex scene in 3x20........I mean......

[Thundercatmary]

Haha you know a sex scene is good (3x20) when your not 100% sure your meant to see it. 

Kidding of course but you know what I mean ;)

[hogwash]

I liked Sara and Oliver's chemistry. It must've been hard to flip from friends to 213 but they did a good job with it. That kiss was amazing. No complaints (about their chemistry, anyway) but I did laugh at them talking in bed together a couple of episodes later because it looked like SA was planking on top of her.

This is making me wonder what contrived Lauriver holdover would've been slapped on if Sara/Oliver were the shows's main pairing. I guess we would been stuck in an endless loop of "I can't be with you; it's my enemies/PTSD/guilt/etc."

[Mellowyellow]

11 hours ago, Angel12d said:

Agreed. I mean, not that it really matters but I've always thought Oliver fell in love with Felicity first. I think Oliver loves very easily which is pretty amazing for someone who has been through what he has. Felicity, on the other hand, clearly protects her heart more and has lot of barriers/wariness about letting someone in emotionally. 

I must admit I loved the fact that he was dropping "I love yous" (sort of in s03e01) and she would not respond to any of them. 

 

One of my favourite scenes is in the episode where the villain ex boyfriend returns and Oliver says something at the end "And you know how I feel about her" and she just brushes him off. My girl is awesome!!!!!!!! 

 

I really enjoyed season 3. It had the weirdest villain and a lot of man pain etc but I loved how Felicity didn't take too much of Oliver’s crap. "I don't want to be a woman that you love." Heee

 

I'm finding the whole BMD way more icky. Up to episode 6 tomorrow and I'm kinda dreading hitting the one where BMD is introduced. Not really digging season 4. I love Felicity and I'm kinda feeling annoyed that she's getting so much crap in season 4 based on all your episode threads.  Not nice watching your favourite character get kicked!

[dtissagirl]

I figure S3 does work way better on binge-watch than it ever did in 8 months of week by week of grimdark depressing audience torture. You don't have the time to stew the bad plotting decisions, and the obvious narrative stalling they were doing on storylines because they can't plan for 23 episodes to save their lives.

Edited May 17, 2016 by dtissagirl

[hogwash]

I am the complete opposite. I hated pretty much everything about Oliver/Felicity in S03 while the first half of S04 reminded me of the potential I saw in season 2.

Going 25 to 100 with Oliver's feelings was dumb. There's a reason that the mansion I love you in the S02 finale was a shock to even people like me who were gunning for them to get together.

[TimetravellingBW]

11 minutes ago, hogwash said:

I am the complete opposite. I hated pretty much everything about Oliver/Felicity in S03 while the first half of S04 reminded me of the potential I saw in season 2.

Going 25 to 100 with Oliver's feelings was dumb. There's a reason that the mansion I love you in the S02 finale was a shock to even people like me who were gunning for them to get together.

Agree, far prefer S4-a Olicity to S3. And yes the writers can't have it both ways, they can't design the mansion ILY to be a shock and then expect everyone to accept Olicity are "all in, tru luv" during S3. I just hope we get some build up and UST during Season 5. 

[kismet]

12 hours ago, thegirlsleuth said:

When people critique the Oliver/Felicity relationship, they often reference how they think she was in love/attracted to him, but he didn't care about her, and the showrunners shouldn't have tried to force the relationship past the nerd girl pining for the hot guy.  I think the exact opposite.  While I think Felicity appreciated the shirtless guy on the salmon ladder and considered Oliver a true friend, the heart eyes all came from Oliver.  He did flirty in season one, and the looks were starting to get adoring as early as 2.1, when she comes to the Island. 

I always thought OQ pined way more for FS both longer and harder. I never really saw FS pine. They both are attractive people and s1 certainly had its looks & innuendos, but no more than your average oogling of stranges/friends at gyms & parties.

I agree with other people that I think the Isabel incident was the first time he consciously had to address his possible feelings for her. The "because of the life I lead" speech is not something your tell your friend or your colleague, not the way they wrote it and certainly not the way SA delivered it. And the then "State v Queen" confirmed he had some pretty deep feelings considering he up and left the trial, came with no back-up & hood down - most importantly he broke his "no-kill" rule.

I also agree that we missed important transition from flirty to dating in s3. One half date was just not enough. I don't think they needed to go on multiple dates. But I think a little more attempts to try before the cliff might have helped the transition. That first kiss was perfect though, but I still think he could have tried to ask her one more time. I feel like there was a moment he could have tried especially around the crossover. I blame the writers for trying to make RP happen, instead of trying to keep some O/F embers glowing. They really wrote the worst triangle ever.

12 hours ago, Angel12d said:

And that scene where Diggle and Felicity found him after he didn't show up to Moira's funeral, I remember thinking OMG he's gonna kiss her. He so wanted to kiss her.

Right there with you... I actually found it more sexually charged than some of SA's actual kisses on the show. That was the type of tension, I absolutely loved with vintage Olicity. The moment still ranks high on my favs list. I don't have a strong desire whether or not they reconcile by the finale. For the record/betting pool, I think they do. However should they choose to keep them apart, they better have more moments like that one and less like the separation angst of s3, or the we forgot we broke up harmony of s4b. I want some sizzle if they are not going to actually be together.

[Midnight Lullaby]

I will forever be bitter we missed all the flirting in the summer between season 2 and 3 and just had a glimpse of it in the season 3 premiere. That's the best part of the romance damn it! Why do those people think we enjoy when they are miserable? It's not funny. Sigh.

[Chaser]

39 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I figure S3 does work way better on binge-watch than it ever did in 8 months of week by week of grimdark depressing audience torture. You don't have the time to stew the bad plotting decisions, and the obvious narrative stalling they were doing on several storylines because they can't plan for 23 episodes to save their lives.

On youtube there is a S3 Olicity Recap video and I was surprised at how much better Olicity came across as a whole. It reminded me that I didn't have a lot of issue with Olicity in comparison to other happenings (Villians - InstaHero - Plot Holes). 

[kismet]

4 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I was talking about something different though..that I saw more "heat" in his scenes in bed and while kissing the actress playing Helena. I didn't see much "sexual chemistry" like others did between SA and CL because they seemed to me they were playing Oliver and Sara as friends (very well) that occasionally slept together without much passion between them. 

I also think SA and EBR have sexual, not only romantic chemistry from the scenes where Oliver and Felicity argue mainly, haha. I thought the one you posted about them arguing over Barry and the other in season 1 where he tried to intimidate her and she told him she quit were pretty hot. Also there's the sex scene in 3x20........I mean......

I also think whoever directed and was the DP for the Helena love scene episode also did an amazing job. Not to take away from the actors, but a perfect example of how it was more than just the actors was that scene afterwards that had SA in the bed and turn his head. There was an intimacy there that portrayed heat. If you have a skilled director/DP/camera operator they can bring intimacy and heat to a scene that is independent of the actors' chemistry.

Agree about O/S it was a friends with benefits scenario and that's how I read there romantic moments. There is deep love and connection between them, but it's always read platonic to me.

Also agree that when O/F argue (perhaps disagree is a better word) they create sexual chemistry, but they have to be in a good place with each other - otherwise when they fight it is very uncomfortable to watch. Their melodramatic fights in s3 were brutal with little to no chemistry. I also think that when EBR plays FS truly mad with OQ (ie BMD fallout) even if she is in the right, she can get very sharp and mean - which takes over the scene. Her delivery becomes very cruel and SA does not play well off of that. It's the one type of interaction that I think creates a black-hole of chemistry.

[tv echo]

On O/F's sexual chemistry, more scenes..

Olicity 1.15 Part 1 "You're not the only one who knows how to reboot my system"

Olicity 2.21 Part 1 "I don't accept that. You shouldn't either."

Edited May 17, 2016 by tv echo

[looptab]

Since we're strolling down memory lane, I want to gift you with probably the most unintentionally funny scene of the whole series.

You're welcome.

[AyChihuahua]

6 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I might be the exception because I didn't see this great chemistry between SA and CL, hahaha. As friends and team mates yes, definitely, but I thought not that good when they were playing a couple. For example that scene they were in bed together at the hotel they both looked so stiff with the body language even if the conversation was relaxed that it pulled me out of the scene.

I think SA had good chemistry with the actresses that played Helena and Isabel, great with EBR, bad with McKenna and terrible with KC and Poppy, like I want to cover my eyes in embarrassment terrible. I will never forget their supposed epic kiss in the season one finale where I don't even know what he was doing with his hands to avoid touching her.

One of the funniest things that has ever happened in this show. SA: "What do I do with my hands...WHAT DO I DO WITH MY HANDS?!?!?!?!"

Hilarious.

TBC, I didn't think his chemistry with the other actresses was off-the-charts...I thought it was fine. Good enough that SA wasn't just incapable of generating romantic/sexual chemistry (like, IMO, Grant Gustin is). 

[Midnight Lullaby]

7 minutes ago, kismet said:

Also agree that when O/F argue (perhaps disagree is a better word) they create sexual chemistry, but they have to be in a good place with each other - otherwise when they fight it is very uncomfortable to watch. Their melodramatic fights in s3 were brutal with little to no chemistry. I also think that when EBR plays FS truly mad with OQ (ie BMD fallout) even if she is in the right, she can get very sharp and mean - which takes over the scene. Her delivery becomes very cruel and SA does not play well off of that. It's the one type of interaction that I think creates a black-hole of chemistry.

I think their fights/argument create that chemistry when it's both of them fighting, not when Felicity gets mad at Oliver because he is an idiot and he looks at her with his puppy eyes begging her to forgive him because he knows he messed up. So I guess those type of arguments are a thing of the past because now I can't really see Oliver raising his voice with her, LOL.

From their love scene in 3x20 and their kiss/scene in bed in 4x01 I think they can make Olicity's scenes more heated than sweet if they want to. I think it wouldn't be a problem for the actors to pull it off but the writers seem to view the couple as pure, sweet, romantic and to always show that.

[dtissagirl]

21 minutes ago, Chaser said:

On youtube there is a S3 Olicity Recap video and I was surprised at how much better Olicity came across as a whole. It reminded me that I didn't have a lot of issue with Olicity in comparison to other happenings (Villians - InstaHero - Plot Holes). 

I had a ginormous issue with creepster Crazy Eyes doucheface, but not that much with Oliver/Felicity, other than the frustration with the obvious 'ship stalling FOR TWENTY EPISODES*.

But this works for me if I wanna rewatch: 301 - Flash 104 - 305 - Flash 108 - 308 - 309 - 310 - 316 - 319 - 320 - 323.

* I do find it pretty funny that Oliver/Felicity is pretty much the single storyline Arrow consistently stalls. They rush through everything else EVER at the speed of light, there's no beat, plot, or storyline they haven't accelerated to ridiculous points... except O/F. Perhaps they realize if they don't write against O/F togetherness on purpose, the characters would be married with kids by now? Probably.

But they've done it 3 seasons in a row now.

- After the rom-com of 201-209 [and the following post-Barry jealous as fuck Oliver], S2 put the brakes on O/F in 213 with the lunge, and kept them narrative-ly apart until 220.

- S3 kept them apart from 302 to 320, jesus fucking christ on a jetski, that's doing TV wrong on several levels.

- And now S4 is keeping them apart from 415 to... 420? I'm not sure when, post-Laurel dying, we can pinpoint the "this is where the O/F rift ends" beat, but I'm sure we'll be able to once the season ends. They don't have to BE together to be written in a romantic storyline. Imo, right at this moment, 420 counts as starting the way back, but I'll have a more certain stance after the finale.
 

Edited May 17, 2016 by dtissagirl

[Mellowyellow]

Noooooo I thought Barry had awesome chemistry with Felicity. I squeeed when I saw them together. It was such a young, happy crush!

[Midnight Lullaby]

13 minutes ago, tv echo said:

On O/F's sexual chemistry, more scenes..

Olicity 1.15 Part 1 "You're not the only one who knows how to reboot my system"

 

Olicity 2.21 Part 1 "I don't accept that. You shouldn't either."

 

I challenge anyone to tell me there was nothing sexual about the "you aren't the only one who knows how to reboot my system" line and delivery, LOL. I remember saying "COME ON!!" at my screen because they were supposed to be a couple of completely platonic almost friends at that point.

[Angel12d]

6 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I might be the exception because I didn't see this great chemistry between SA and CL, hahaha. As friends and team mates yes, definitely, but I thought not that good when they were playing a couple. For example that scene they were in bed together at the hotel they both looked so stiff with the body language even if the conversation was relaxed that it pulled me out of the scene.

I'd agree that their scene in the hotel was a bit awkward but I thought their kiss in 213 was hot. The rest of the time I only ever saw friendship chemistry between them. It didn't surprise me that O/S slept together and I've always maintained that I was fine with them having a one off because they always struck me as two people who would fall into bad habits when everything around them goes to shit. But in the scenes before 213 I never saw sexual tension or anything like that. Just two people who had a history and cared about each other. They never felt like unfinished business to me. So I do understand why some of the audience were surprised when they slept together. And I was glad when they ended things for good. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

4 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Noooooo I thought Barry had awesome chemistry with Felicity. I squeeed when I saw them together. It was such a young, happy crush!

I think Barry and Felicity together were adorable like a couple of puppies but I have difficulties imagining them in a relationship because I have issues imagining Barry in a relationship, LOL.

[AyChihuahua]

1 minute ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I think Barry and Felicity together were adorable like a couple of puppies but I have difficulties imagining them in a relationship because I have issues imagining Barry in a relationship, LOL.

Barry is built like a Ken doll. I'm convinced.

[Chaser]

2 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

Barry is built like a Ken doll. I'm convinced.

That took me a moment…LOL. Poor Barry.

[lemotomato]

5 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Noooooo I thought Barry had awesome chemistry with Felicity. I squeeed when I saw them together. It was such a young, happy crush!

Barry had good chemistry with Felicity if they were supposed to be a couple in middle school. I can see them sharing a milkshake and holding hands and giggling in the hallway, but that's about it. I don't know how, but Grant Gustin looks more like a 14 year old now that he did when he was on Glee.

But it's still better than what she had with Ray.

[kismet]

3 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

Barry is built like a Ken doll. I'm convinced.

Maybe that explains why he cries so much... Poor guy :(

I love GG but I have to admit that guy has 0% sexual chemistry with 100% of his co-stars.

[Chaser]

To bring back my favorite Barry v Oliver: Barry is the guy you eat ice cream with and Oliver is the guy you eat ice cream off of.

I still really really adore the Felicity and Barry relationship. I would love to see more of it in the crossovers.

[dtissagirl]

My favorite of all Barry relationships are Barry-Felicity and Barry-Oliver, tbh. But I'm incapable of seeing Barry as someone who's ever had sex in his life because he's like, 8 years old.

[manbearpig]

The Oliver/Sara lunge moment was a surprise for me because at the time it felt like there was no build up to it, despite the fact that they had already slept together in the past. I thought it was awkward and rushed. Their scenes were fine when they were actually together after 2x13, but I do remember thinking it came out of nowhere at the time. Even the flashbacks on the island felt more friendly than romantic to me.

[ComicFan777]

Aside from Barry-Felicity and Barry-Oliver, I thought Barry worked well with Kara. 

[ohjoy]

14 hours ago, Angel12d said:

And that scene where Diggle and Felicity found him after he didn't show up to Moira's funeral, I remember thinking OMG he's gonna kiss her. He so wanted to kiss her.

 

2 hours ago, kismet said:

Right there with you... I actually found it more sexually charged than some of SA's actual kisses on the show. That was the type of tension, I absolutely loved with vintage Olicity. The moment still ranks high on my favs list.

I remember I actually gasped at my tv in that moment. The three arrows to the Count's chest in 2x07 was the moment I knew he loved her, but that moment in the secondary lair was the first moment I actually believed he wanted her.

[Midnight Lullaby]

1 hour ago, Angel12d said:

I'd agree that their scene in the hotel was a bit awkward but I thought their kiss in 213 was hot. The rest of the time I only ever saw friendship chemistry between them. It didn't surprise me that O/S slept together and I've always maintained that I was fine with them having a one off because they always struck me as two people who would fall into bad habits when everything around them goes to shit. But in the scenes before 213 I never saw sexual tension or anything like that. Just two people who had a history and cared about each other. They never felt like unfinished business to me. So I do understand why some of the audience were surprised when they slept together. And I was glad when they ended things for good. 

I was offline and bing watched season 2 and I half expected them to go there with Oliver and Sara because they went there with every woman Oliver met at the time so I wasn't surprised, but I was also convinced it was temporary. It didn't bother me, I didn't even give them much thought as a romantic pairing. My only problem with Sara on team Arrow in S2 was that the result was Dig being pushed in the sidelines.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Midnight Lullaby

[lexii]

Okay, fairly new here, but reading through these threads I want to jump up and down shouting "MY PEOPLE! I HAVE FOUND MY TRIBE!"

Re: Barry/Felicity and Sara/Oliver

I think these relationships both serve the same purpose. They're 100% solid, die-for-you friendships with possible sexual chemistry, but both only function on a temporary basis. Barry and Felicity can't get too far into a relationship before they realize they're almost exactly the same person and their relationship shouldn't get past cuddling on the couch while watching Netflix.

Sara and Oliver are a different story. In my mind they have a very unique bond because they survived on the island together and went through similar processes to become killers in need of redemption. They're perfect fuck buddies, but their relationship isn't necessarily romantic because together their outlook is too bleak for romantic  love to exist. They only work for so long before they recognize being together drags them both back down to their worst selves, but I would put Sara as the fourth person Damien Darkh would put in the gas chamber boxes because she's as close to Oliver as Felicity, Thea and Diggle, but in a very different way. And yes, Laurel should have been manning the tip line, because she had no business associating with Oliver at all after season 1; and I can only interpret her sticking around as some kind of self-punishment to feed her martyr complex.

Laurel Lance is a tragedy. BKG obviously never consulted a woman during development because a woman would have smacked them over the head for thinking the toxic ex thing could work as the series "epic love story." But I digress.

It makes perfect sense to me that Oliver would sleep with Sara in 2x13. Shit just got real in his relationship with Felicity because she's always played it close to the chest with her personal life. She knows all about him, but he doesn't know much about her, so sharing the story about her father leaving is a pivotal moment for them... and Oliver is terrified. He's terrified because as far as he knows he'll only hurt Felicity emotionally because he knows he's a dick, and in comparison Sara is safe because she's just as closed off emotionally as he is. 

I'm pretty sure Diggle knew exactly what Oliver was doing-- hooking up with Sara was really all about being scared of his really real feelings for Felicity; an act of avoidance-- if he doesn't acknowledge that he's kinda in love with Felicity in the grown up way that he's never experienced before, then those feelings don't exist, right? Diggle likely felt it wasn't his place because he didn't know the two of them back in the day, but somewhere in Heaven Tommy was shaking his head ruefully, going "you really are a complete dumbass, aren't you Ollie?" Thea would have also called him on his shit had she known the situation.

Laurel would have just made the whole thing about her and how everyone betrays her.

I so desperately wanted to like Laurel. At best she was a poorly constructed character I never found believable because the writing was so terrible, at worst she was a completely selfish, narcissistic bitch with very few likable qualities. Deep analysis makes me feel even her better parts were tainted with self-absorption; she only worked as a non-profit attorney so she'd get a pat on the back for being so "selfless." I always hate myself for thinking so lowly of her, but I can't deny what I see in the text.

Oh, and my point: One of the things that pissed me off about the Baby Mama story was that it tainted Felicity's friendship with Barry. Central City was her safe place, where she could go to be comforted whenever Oliver was being an ass, but because Barry was complicit in the deceit her safe place wasn't available. Where did she go during that montage where Laurel's all happy, laughing with her dad and eating lunch, Diggle is holding Sara, and Oliver is making his video confession to William? 

Thank you, sweet Jesus, for Curtis and Paul. I like to think they've both been the Gay Best Friend before, and know how to comfort the broken-hearted with Ice Cream and Dirty Dancing. Because they're so similar, Barry should have known how much the revelation would hurt Felicity, but he let his man crush on Oliver overpower his natural sympathy.

[TimetravellingBW]

6 hours ago, Angel12d said:

The rest of the time I only ever saw friendship chemistry between them. It didn't surprise me that O/S slept together and I've always maintained that I was fine with them having a one off because they always struck me as two people who would fall into bad habits when everything around them goes to shit. But in the scenes before 213 I never saw sexual tension or anything like that. Just two people who had a history and cared about each other. They never felt like unfinished business to me. So I do understand why some of the audience were surprised when they slept together. And I was glad when they ended things for good. 

I was surprised when they slept together but completely read it as two broken people finding comfort in each other because they understood each other and didn't feel they were worth more.

It was just annoying with Oliver's previous "because of the life that I lead I can't...." spiel. It made him look like a hypocrite. If they'd had Dig going what happened to the "no relationships rule bro?" and Oliver going "blah blah Sara knows all about the emotional/psychological toll my lifestyle takes on me, she's had just as dark experiences as I have so I'm not afraid of damaging her with my brokenness." (It's not like we haven't seen him try that kind of I'll-Help-You-With-The-Darkness relationship with Helena.) That would have justified the infamous Lunge, confirmed most people's interpretation and not made Oliver look like a dick for basically telling Felicity he couldn't date and then getting with Sara. Seriously writers, I'm not expecting the talking heads of Parks and Rec but insight into the characters heads is a fun thing to try. 

[kismet]

Welcome @TimetravellingBW & @lexii! Always nice to welcome more to the tribe :) I feel like this was the first place I posted as well.

[BkWurm1]

9 hours ago, lexii said:

It makes perfect sense to me that Oliver would sleep with Sara in 2x13. Shit just got real in his relationship with Felicity because she's always played it close to the chest with her personal life. She knows all about him, but he doesn't know much about her, so sharing the story about her father leaving is a pivotal moment for them... and Oliver is terrified. He's terrified because as far as he knows he'll only hurt Felicity emotionally because he knows he's a dick, and in comparison Sara is safe because she's just as closed off emotionally as he is. 

Head canon accepted! I've always thought what you said about why O/S were together, but hadn't considered how Felicity revealing her history and fears would have fanned all Oliver's fear and negative thoughts about himself.  Nice insight.

[TimetravellingBW]

19 hours ago, kismet said:

Welcome @TimetravellingBW & @lexii! Always nice to welcome more to the tribe :) I feel like this was the first place I posted as well.

Thank you! I did the same things as @LEXII and read through these pages going "Yay!! These people have been watching the same show as I have!" (As thrilling as this mythical Felicity & Friends show sounds).

On 5/17/2016 at 6:29 AM, lexii said:

Okay, fairly new here, but reading through these threads I want to jump up and down shouting "MY PEOPLE! I HAVE FOUND MY TRIBE!"

Re: Barry/Felicity and Sara/Oliver

I think these relationships both serve the same purpose. They're 100% solid, die-for-you friendships with possible sexual chemistry, but both only function on a temporary basis. Barry and Felicity can't get too far into a relationship before they realize they're almost exactly the same person and their relationship shouldn't get past cuddling on the couch while watching Netflix.

I would put Sara as the fourth person Damien Darkh would put in the gas chamber boxes because she's as close to Oliver as Felicity, Thea and Diggle, but in a very different way. And yes, Laurel should have been manning the tip line, because she had no business associating with Oliver at all after season 1; and I can only interpret her sticking around as some kind of self-punishment to feed her martyr complex.

It makes perfect sense to me that Oliver would sleep with Sara in 2x13. Shit just got real in his relationship with Felicity because she's always played it close to the chest with her personal life. She knows all about him, but he doesn't know much about her, so sharing the story about her father leaving is a pivotal moment for them... and Oliver is terrified. He's terrified because as far as he knows he'll only hurt Felicity emotionally because he knows he's a dick, and in comparison Sara is safe because she's just as closed off emotionally as he is. 

I'm pretty sure Diggle knew exactly what Oliver was doing-- hooking up with Sara was really all about being scared of his really real feelings for Felicity; an act of avoidance-- if he doesn't acknowledge that he's kinda in love with Felicity in the grown up way that he's never experienced before, then those feelings don't exist, right? Diggle likely felt it wasn't his place because he didn't know the two of them back in the day, but somewhere in Heaven Tommy was shaking his head ruefully, going "you really are a complete dumbass, aren't you Ollie?" Thea would have also called him on his shit had she known the situation.

Absolutely, both Felicity/Barry and Oliver/Sara are basically Platonic Life Partners/kindred spirits, they instinctively understand each other because the two pairs are basically the same person deep down. But they're too similar to work romantically.

I like the idea that if Sara had been around, she would have been the fourth person in the gas chamber. (I think Roy would be the fifth.) Unlike Laurel, Sara did provide a unique relationship for Oliver, as someone who knew what he'd been through and suffered the same darkness he had. (Honestly, that's the recurring problem with Laurel: Everyone else has a unique position in Oliver's world. Felicity is the love of his life. Thea is his sister/last remaining biological family. Diggle is his brother in arms. Sara is his kindred spirit. Even Roy is his mentoree/little brother type. Meanwhile Laurel wasn't as good as love interest as Felicity, doesn't have the same positive relationship from before the island as Thea, isn't as good a fighting comrade as Diggle, doesn't come close to understanding him like Sara, and would never let Oliver mentor her like Roy. She's the bitter ex girlfriend and that is not the person you invite into your elite group of True Companions. But anyway, tangent!) 

I like the theory that Oliver went to Sara partly because he realized he was getting too close to Felicity. It annoyed me that in the same episode Felicity said she was scared of Oliver leaving her, he went and hooked up with Sara. But the idea of a defense mechanism is fitting.

Also yes, that Diggle - who usually talks sense into Oliver - couldn't comment on O/S because he didn't know their past. In early seasons there was this definite divide between Diggle/Felicity (who know Oliver) and the Lances/Queens (who knew Ollie). And I think Dig and Felicity felt restricted in talking about his relationships predating the Island - even when Oliver was making terrible decisions. It's notable that Diggle's big fight with Oliver in S1 was over him choosing Laurel over the team. By Season 4 it feels Oliver's two worlds have merged, though I do want Thea/Felicity and Thea/Diggle bonding. (They did attempt to bond Laurel with Felicity in S3 and Diggle in S4 but something was off imo). 

Edited May 18, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[TrueMyth]

So I know I'm not the only one WTFing over the straight-up comparison between Donna and Noah and Felicity and Oliver.  It really seems like the show is moving towards Felicity forgiving Oliver, when he hasn't actually apologized.  But even with that, we didn't really get Felicity's reaction to the news that Donna cut off Noah, let alone how she feels that her mother asked him to take a walk at the end of this episode.  I feel like it was too many beats to play out well in such a short time, and I'm left not sure what the show wants me to think about the Noah/Donna relationship.

Also, I find the idea that staying with a man for at least eight years and having a child with him is rather different than breaking up after four years, before marriage or a child.  As much as I enjoy Oliver and Felicity together, I feel that Felicity is doing the totally mature thing, and I hate the idea of her position being reduced to some kind of "Like mother, like daughter, can't forgive little things like lying or international cyber crime..." Because that's what I got from Curtis.  I hate him being the mouthpiece for that.

Ugh.

[Midnight Lullaby]

I think first of all episode 22 isn't the place to discuss family issues, it was the wrong time. In fact I found Donna's behavior annoying because hello, Felicity and Noah are trying to save the world, so not the time to freak out about your adult daughter and her father bonding.

I didn't like that Felicity was fine with Donna letting her believe her dad abandoned her because it's BIG, but also there would have been no appropriate time for an emotional reaction because the world was under attack. There's to say though that I can understand why Donna didn't want her child around a criminal and a gambler, it was to protect her, I don't understand what she thinks she is doing sending him away now that she is an adult though. I hope if/when Felicity finds out that she doesn't let her off the hook so easily, I really hated what she did.

I said in another thread that I see the comparison with Oliver/Felicity and Noah/Donna with Oliver and Noah being the two men Felicity thought she shouldn't give a second chance to but Curtis made her notice, given her dad's behavior, that maybe she was wrong to think that about him and he hinted at her being wrong about Oliver as well. But Oliver should make some effort to show he meant what he said to her in episode 16 before Felicity can forgive him IMO. Words are cheap.

[BkWurm1]

Quote

I didn't like that Felicity was fine with Donna letting her believe her dad abandoned her because it's BIG,

She really didn't have a chance to show whether she was upset at all or not because right after dropping that bomb her mom asks if telling Felicity this will mean she's going to lose her and upset or not, Felicity isn't going to let her mom think that.  Yes it's fanwanking but I'm doubling down on Felicity and her mom having a serious conversation in the future. (Even if it's only off screen)

I really think Felicity would be forgiving of the choice her mom made, but at the same time really regretful over not knowing the truth since her father just leaving her ate away at her self worth.  Still, I'm not sure if knowing Donna forced the issue would have in the long run made much of a difference since that only explains the separation and maybe him staying away when she was very young.  It wouldn't explain Noah not ever contacting her as she got older. 

I do think she and her mom would be having a fight if she realized how much it was her mom's influence again this time for Noah leaving.  Felicity is not the kind of person that accepts others making her choices but while there would be words, Donna's actions aren't going to form a huge rift because Felicity is going to understand where it's all coming from and as other's have pointed out, it was still Noah's choice to leave this time.

Change in subject, but can I just state again how pleased I was with the character swerve that was the reality of Donna Smaok.  I was sooo expecting her to look just as she does but I was also expecting her to be a selfish woman always on the make for the next Mr. Right at the expense of her daughter's happiness.  I read a book yesterday where the mother in the story was exactly who I thought Donna was going to be and she was so hurtful and weak and to imagine what we could have been stuck with compared to the happy treat that is Donna.  All the fluff and none of the saccharine.  All that sweetness is real and so we get both the embarrassment and the genuine love. And now proof that she's human too.  I really am happy with the Smoak woman. They could have been caricatures but they really never are.      

Edited May 25, 2016 by BkWurm1

[theacostov]

56 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

All that sweetness is real and so we get both the embarrassment and the genuine love. And now proof that she's human too.  I really am happy with the Smoak woman. They could have been caricatures but they really never are.      

I really agree with this. Donna could so easily have been awful, and while there are times where I'm side-eying her (episode 20 or 21 with that weird speech to Quentin) she does feel like a real person. I think the name Smoak for Donna and Felicity is really clever, because if you look at both women on the surface they come across one way, but underneath the smoke if you will, they have so much depth. Not to be underestimated.

Also super happy with Tom Amandes as Felicity's dad. He has great chemistry with Emily and again whilst he is a criminal he isn't doing the over the top bad guy thing. Seems like a real person with serious familial commitment issues. I really love how we got to see Felicity and her dad exactly as Donna described them in S3 episode 5 as this team that she feels left out of. They've really nailed the casting for the Smoaks.

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, theacostov said:

Also super happy with Tom Amandes as Felicity's dad. He has great chemistry with Emily and again whilst he is a criminal he isn't doing the over the top bad guy thing. Seems like a real person with serious familial commitment issues. I really love how we got to see Felicity and her dad exactly as Donna described them in S3 episode 5 as this team that she feels left out of. They've really nailed the casting for the Smoaks.

They really made my wishes come true with Noah. Since they started dropping hints about him, all I really wanted was basically a self-centered guy who was not psychotic, so I am more than pleased that they stuck to that and didn't have him veer into either a poor misunderstood silent hero or and all round psycho like Malcolm. The scene you mentioned was a great illustration of what Donna mentioned last year.

[kismet]

Gotta think the convenient world is ending,  I need to stop some more nukes while my loved ones rescue a loved one from an evil organization really helped set the mood for easy forgiveness. 

If it was say an average Thursday or a winter month  then the scenario would have played out differently. 

I do feel FS will have a long talk with both parents at some point in the future/summer and discuss stuff. I think the forgiveness will stick but DS is not getting off that easily and certainly not for sending NK away in the present. 

[dtissagirl]

1 hour ago, lion10 said:

Isn't that the same thing as breaking up with him over him lying?  Him not sharing his life with her is facilitate by him lying to her and thus keeping a part of his life secret.  In regards to Donna, I've never been anywhere close to that kind of situation, but I feel like finding out that your mother ran away with you and that's why you don't have a dad in your life, not because he ran off, would be a paradigm shift for the average person.

I can differentiate how Felicity reacted to Oliver hiding a secret kid from Donna lying about Noah abandoning them because one situation gave Felicity a choice about her future, and the other didn't.

Oliver proposed while hiding a secret kid. Oliver planned on keeping hiding the kid from her after they got married. If Malcolm hadn't happened, this situation of being lied to constantly would have gone into Felicity's future. And so she made a choice based on what she imagined her life with Oliver would be -- married to a dude who's not willing to even talk to her when he's making the monumental decision of letting go of his son. She basically took a preemptive strike against him, because she doesn't want to have that kind of marriage.

With Donna lying about Noah, it already happened. Years ago. Yes, Donna was still wrong for leading Felicity to believe they were abandoned, and yes, Donna should have told Felicity much sooner. But what will Felicity do now? Break up with her mom? Cut ties with her? That's not really a reasonable choice, like deciding not to marry Oliver was.

The issue I still have is the part that Felicity DOESN'T KNOW -- that Donna told Noah to scram again, which does affect Felicity's future, because she's a grown up and she can make her own decisions about whether to have a relationship with her father. But she doesn't know about that, so she can't be angry at Donna. I really hope that's addressed in S5.

Edited May 26, 2016 by dtissagirl

[tv echo]

Oliver (to Diggle) in 3x01: “Last girlfriend, she's in the League of Assassins. My girlfriend before that, she shot my girlfriend before that. I'm not - not exactly a catch at the moment.”

Felicity (to herself): "First boyfriend, he was presumed dead but had just turned evil.  Second boyfriend, he was presumed dead but had just shrunk.  Last boyfriend, he was presumed dead twice but lied to me about his secret son - oh and he shoots people with arrows... On the plus side, he saves the city."

Edited May 28, 2016 by tv echo

[Soulfire]

Emily Bett Rickards at COH2 on whether Oliver has told Felicity everything about the island --

Quote

 

Q: “Do you think Oliver told Felicity everything about the island already?”

EBR: “No. I don’t think, I don’t think he’s told anyone everything about the island. He doesn’t have a therapist – Felicity’s the closest thing that he has.

So he hasn’t worked through those things, and I think that comes a lot to do with the superhero – it’s like, I don’t want to put my burden on anything else, that’s why I wear a mask. I don’t want you to know… there’s a whole thing about concealing your identity, as a superhero. But I think one of the reasons we all sort of relate to superheroes  is that they’re hiding behind a mask and we all wear masks everyday.

And sort of that idea, like, oh I don’t want you to have to deal with MY problems,  so I’m not going to let you know it’s me. So that I can talk to you as a human being and be a different person. But then you’re sort of with yourself. It’s like finding that identity. “

 

[kismet]

From the spoilers section. Only read the summary, so not sure how spoilery the rest of the clips are.

3 hours ago, tv echo said:

At Wizard World Philadelphia on June 4, SA responded to fan question about the future of Olicity...

Arrow's Stephen Amell Discusses The Future Of Olicity
Published on Jun 6, 2016, by Comicbook.com

-- In response to fan asking if Felicity was justified in walking away or whether there were other things, like couples counseling, she could have suggested first, SA: "Well, that would've been a fun scene. 'Oliver, you're the trust tree. Talk about your feelings.' Um ... No, I - I felt like she was relatively quick to walk away. But, I'm not going to - I mean, fictional character - she's allowed to do whatever she wants."

I do have to agree that I think FS walked away to quickly from the relationship. She was right to walk away, but it was done a little hastily. I truly believe that if the writers were better they would have wrote O/F having an actual conversation about why she needed to walk away. OQ & certain parts of the audience need to understand that it had nothing to do with the son and everything to do with how OQ handled the situation. Their relationship is stronger and deeper than FS just storming off.

But we all know that it had to happen for plot purposes. That is why they wrote a contrived plot, to achieve a contrived break-up. It was a misstep from the writers and threw the characterization under the bus. However, SA can't bite off the hands that feed him. I'm sure he would love to be more blunt about how he really feels. He knows the style & caliber of the writers room, so his hands are tied about how to honestly answer that question in a PR savy way.

It is what it is. FS was too quick to walk away, but she was right to do it. And there in lies the rub because both are accurate.

[Midnight Lullaby]

Frankly I would have walked away the moment my lying fiancée introduced me as a friend to his one night stand he was so dumb to knock up and lied for despite she told him his son was dead and stopped him from having a relationship with him for years. But Felicity is a better person than I am.

[Password]

I can't remember that episode.  He introduced Felicity aka his fiance as a friend?