Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[manbearpig]

I mean, Caitlin and Iris were barely allowed to react to losing Ronnie and Eddie this season, so I don't think we'll see Cisco mourning Laurel when they've been in one scene together. (I really did love that scene though and would have liked more Laurel/Cisco, but that didn't happen).

[Mellowyellow]

I am hoarding episodes of season 4 and watching it when the finale ends. Although I read spoilers every week. Going to have a meltdown if O and F don't end up together! I had the luxury of binge watching the first 3 seasons knowing they were driving off into the sunset.

I have never shipped a couple so much and I grew up watching tragic asian series so shipping is in my blood!

[doesntworkonwood]

From the spoilers thread

 

Do you guys think the show would just take the tack that Oliver won't have a love interest at all other than sleep around?

 

Honestly, for them to show Oliver in a present day relationship with someone other than Felicity would feel really dishonest to me. In season three it was pretty much Felicity or no one, and with Felicity very much in the picture (i.e. not dead or put on a bus) I have no doubt that Oliver would 'stray' from that. They've shown that Oliver has pretty much been in love with Felicity for over two years, to an extent that we haven't seen before at all with Oliver's other relationships.

 

Theoretically they could put Oliver in an interim relationship, they could ignore everything that happened and call it Oliver's attempt to move on. But the problem with that is they very much based the break up as a way to induce growth in Oliver. The problem wasn't that they argued a lot, or that they never saw each other, or various other problems where both of the characters are at fault (or neither are at fault). If it was that case then it would sort of make sense that Oliver would attempt to move on (I say sort of because season three implies otherwise, but the writers could ignore that) because there's not really an easy solution to those. However, the problem was that Oliver lied and didn't let Felicity in, and there very much is an easy (storywise) solution to that, which will probably (read:most definitely) will be Oliver not lying or keeping secrets from Felicity. 

 

The way I see it, Oliver has mentally been in a relationship with Felicity since the beginning of season three, and he still believes himself to be in that relationship. That's why we didn't see him with anyone after the date with Felicity, because, whilst he wasn't actually dating her, he subconsciously viewed being in a relationship with someone else not only something he couldn't do but also as an act of infidelity, because he's in love with Felicity. Now, I don't think that it's subconscious. If we learnt anything from Broken Hearts it's that Oliver hasn't given up on having a relationship with Felicity, and even with what he said to Laurel in Beacon of Hope, I don't think that he has given up on reconciliation at all. It's Felicity or no one for him, because if it was anyone else in Oliver's mind it would very much be him being unfaithful to Felicity, despite not actually being in a relationship with her. 

[Genki]

Even in the Alternate Future in LoT, Grumpy Old Man Oliver did not give the impression that he was enjoying female companionship with Felicity "gone".

Edited April 14, 2016 by Genki

[tv echo]

I've read a couple articles where the writers want Oliver to become a lone, crimefighting vigilante who has no romantic attachments - he has sex with a lot of different women but mostly goes out and ruthlessly beats up the bad guys.  In other words, they want him to revert back to S1 Oliver (basically, Bruce Wayne).

 

This is the James Bond fantasy where the protagonist is this tough killer who treats women like interchangeable bodies for his temporary pleasure, but he's still a "hero" because he's always saving the world.

 

The problem, however, is that Oliver is supposed to be on a hero journey where he evolves and changes (I believe).  If he ends up the same guy he was in S1, what was the point of the past four years?  They've also set up Diggle to be his aspirational role model of someone who can both have a family and fight crime.  I don't know what the EPs are going to do or where the show is going, but if they were to have Oliver back off of any serious romantic attachments at all, that just seems to be a major regression of his character and his journey.

 

It also always annoys me when the hero is allowed or encouraged to have deep bromance friendships ("brothers') and familial relationships (father-son usually, or siblings), but discouraged from having a serious romantic relationship.

Edited April 14, 2016 by tv echo

[NumberCruncher]

Great post, tv echo. I think what you described is exactly what the EPs and the actors have brought up in various interviews, especially the part about Diggle being what Oliver would be in 5 years. The point is to progress Oliver Queen from his detached, dark, traumatized persona into a well-adjusted man again. I'll be honest--had they kept Oliver the same as he was back in S1 (and even most of S2)--I would have checked out of this show long ago. I enjoy the cool stunts and action scenes as much as the next person but they do get old after awhile. There are only so many ways you can punch the bad guys for 88 episodes.

You have to have something providing the motivation for a hero's actions and TPTB have chosen a romantic relationship to do that. I have no interest in watching a tortured superhero endlessly brood while he whores his way though meaningless sexual encounters because that adds absolutely nothing to the story.

Edited April 14, 2016 by NumberCruncher

[Morrigan2575]

I wouldn't even say S1 Oliver because S1 Oliver didn't treat women as interchangeable.  He had a relationship with Helena that was more than physical, he was trying to reach out and connect with a kindred spirit.  Trying to find someone that could understand his anger/pain/mission/life.  With McKenna he was trying to reunite/connect with someone from his past and they also had the whole Cop/Vigilante relationship going on.  It was definitely more than physical.  Finally we all know the situation with Laurel was more than Physical.

 

It sounds like what they want is just to turn pre-island Ollie into a badass killer and call it a hero.  Which, is 1) not at all the story the show was telling and 2) a total regression of Oliver as a character...which again is not what the show wants.  The whole point of the stupid ass flashbacks is to show Oliver's journey to get him from DBag Ollie to the point of Oliver's return in the pilot.  The current storyline (present day Starling) is supposed to show his journey from S1 Vigilante to Hero.  These are parallel stories that are at the core of Arrow (as much as I hate the Flashbacks).

Edited April 14, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[tv echo]

I agree with what Morrigan2575 said.

 

I confess, I tend to block out large parts of S1 from my memory.

[quarks]

How exactly do you fight for someone who leaves you because of a choice you make. He did apologized in the next episode and said he will change, but Felicity still walked away. The thing is she does not believe in him anymore. I think she just realized that she made a mistake and that he was never the man for her. I don't think they are getting back together. I really think  that if you walk away from someone, because of the reasons they gave her, it means you clearly want to move on and find something else. May she loved him for a while, but you know - love is blindness.

 

 

I'm about 100% certain that Felicity and Oliver broke up not because she doesn't believe him anymore, or because she realized that she made a mistake or that Oliver isn't the man for her,  or because she wants to move on, but because:

 

1. Television law requires television couples, and especially television couples in dramas, to break up at least once before the wedding. In the case of Arrow in particular, a wedding episode presents the CW with the opportunity to promote not one but three and possibly four shows (assuming that Vixen can make an appearance and promote her little webseries) and possibly five (if the CW decides to go ahead and add yet another live action Arrowverse show.) This will, of course, be followed by the usual "but will X prevent the Oliver and Felicity wedding? TUNE IN TO FIND OUT!"

 

2. Arrow wanted Felicity out of the Arrow Cave during the Laurel death episode. They had two ways to accomplish this: sending Felicity off to Flash or Legends of Tomorrow, or having her breakup with Oliver. Having her breakup with Oliver thus combined two goals at once (the mandated television breakup/getting her out of the way for the Laurel death episode) and meant that Flash didn't have to pay EBR for the guest star appearance. 

 

So, since this was a breakup for outside reasons, not character reasons, I'm fairly confident we'll see Oliver and Felicity back together by the season finale.

[AyChihuahua]

I'm genuinely floored that anyone who has ever watched tv thinks they're not getting back together. Of COURSE they're getting back together. In real life, I think there's a very good chance that they wouldn't, that this breach of trust would be it for a self-respecting woman like Felicity...but this ain't real life. It's a constructed television drama, that, almost always, follows tv drama rules. The ONLY way they wouldn't is if like EBR died or became a ginormous movie star and could buy her way out of her contract. I'm not even a shipper anymore and I am 100% convinced they'll get back together.

 

Also, I think Quarks #1 above is pretty much the whole reason. I don't think #2 was even necessary. This show, for all my fondness for it, is ALMOST NEVER SURPRISING.

[tv echo]

I thought PB had an interesting perspective on the difference between Sara and Laurel, and Quentin's relationship with each of them (from PB's interview with ComicBook.com that's posted in Spoilers thread):

Quote

What’s the difference in the way you played losing Laurel versus losing Sara?
That’s a good question. Sara was the little tear-away in our family, and the little rebel. So somehow it was never a surprise that the path that she took, and losing her was huge, but somehow less surprising in a way than losing Laurel. Obviously, there was a huge bond with father and daughter with Sara, but there is a really really strong bond with Laurel. 

She was sort of Lance’s protege in a way, because Lance would look at her as a child and see how smart she was and would instill in her the morals and ethics of life, of what’s right and what’s wrong. Part of our backstory was that we would play the “right-wrong game,” and she was so smart, she’d end up teaching Lance things, even when she was a kid. Her awareness was so much greater than grumpy Lance’s was. Lance could really see that she was going to blossom into something much more than what Lance ever was. And he would tell her, the more you learn about the law, the more chance you’ll have of finding justice. So there was a greater closeness in that sense, rather than Sara, who would be running off to music festivals with a guitar on her back. 

Edited April 28, 2016 by tv echo

[kismet]

I can believe that LL was a cornerstone for QL. Their relationship was one of the only good ones KC portrayed well. After losing SL & DL it seemed Q & L really bonded which makes a lot of sense.

I actually think the show really missed the mark & screwed things up by not having her death scene & funeral be more about Q/L & less about O/L. Forever disappointed they went the fan pandering route by dredging up Lauriver two weeks in a row, rather than giving a beautiful end to the more organic and authentic Q/L relationship that was actually cultivated on the show for 4 years. 

[Angel12d]

I agree. I think the O/L stuff was a big mistake and unnecessary (and total fanservice) and I actually expected to see more of Quentin's reaction. It would have made more sense considering Q/L were always talking and confiding and supporting each other and he had just lost another daughter for the third time. 

Think about a sweet scene of Quentin picturing Laurel as a child as he reminisces and you realize how badly they messed up.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Angel12d

[nksarmi]

This entire episode should have been about Quentin and Laurel and Sara.  I love Tommy, but they already addressed his funeral in the comics and they shouldn't have gone back to it here. This should have been Sara's funeral and Laurel being the rock for her dad while putting aside her own feelings of betrayal and sadness. Watching Laurel support her dad in the past would have strengthened his desperation to get her back in the present.  If I recall the timeline correctly, they could have also focused on the reason she went to law school and contrasted that with the team not wanting to let her be remembered poorly because of Baby Canary's actions.

[dtissagirl]

I wish I were a fly in the pitch meeting wherein, in the season they're exploring what family means, they settled on making Laurel's dying words AND funeral + homage episode be about her failed love life. 

[Morrigan2575]

ignore

Edited April 28, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[Genki]

The problem with focusing and contrasting Sara's funeral with Laurel's is 2-fold.

1. Oliver was not around for Sara's 1st funeral, Thea was 12 and the story would not come back to Oliver who is the Star of the show. 

2. As much as it failed, I think filming 2 funerals was also meant to hide the fact that Laurel bit the dust.

Tommy was a common link that could be used to confuse who was at what funeral and also make a connection to Oliver's emotional states. 

There was really no reason to have all the Lauriver retcon, the episode could have had the same outcome without it, but I think they wanted to give Fanservice to KC. 

[nksarmi]

4 hours ago, Genki said:

The problem with focusing and contrasting Sara's funeral with Laurel's is 2-fold.

1. Oliver was not around for Sara's 1st funeral, Thea was 12 and the story would not come back to Oliver who is the Star of the show. 

2. As much as it failed, I think filming 2 funerals was also meant to hide the fact that Laurel bit the dust.

Tommy was a common link that could be used to confuse who was at what funeral and also make a connection to Oliver's emotional states. 

There was really no reason to have all the Lauriver retcon, the episode could have had the same outcome without it, but I think they wanted to give Fanservice to KC. 

The flashbacks could have been told through Quentin for this one episode.  I really didn't need Laurel's death to be about Oliver's journey. The show did all it could in season two and three to tell me Laurel wasn't that important to Oliver - I don't need them trying to reverse ground now. They should have either done what someone else suggested and had everyone have flashbacks of Laurel (which could have been really good) or just focused on Quentin. That would have made for a much better episode without ruining everything there was left to like about Laurel.

[Sakura12]

Sara had one episode of flashbacks that was mostly about her with very little Oliver in them. They could've done that with Laurel if they cared about the character. 

I love that in PB's headcanon Sara's apparently a musician. In the Christmas story Sara played the piano, now she's goes to music festivals with a guitar on her back. They should've put High School Sara in a band, Nu52 Black Canary! 

Edited April 29, 2016 by Sakura12

[tv echo]

One media reviewer stated that the flashbacks showed Oliver's growth since S1.  When Tommy died, Oliver didn't go to the funeral (with the retcon) and ran away to Lian Yu afterwards.  When Laurel died, Oliver gave the eulogy at the funeral and stayed around to deal with the aftermath, even being the voice of reason to the rest of the team.

[bijoux]

I agree that's what they were going for, but maybe find a way to do it without contradicting the tie-in comics They said are a part of canon.

[Angel12d]

I think they showed Oliver's growth without the flashbacks. He was giving support to his teammates and he was the one who bought Diggle back from the brink. He was the voice of reason. That's all amazing growth right there. And even turning up at Laurel's funeral would have shown a change considering he couldn't face his mother's funeral in s2. The flashbacks absolutely were not needed. They were total fan service to a relationship we never even saw. I'm forever baffled. 

Edited April 29, 2016 by Angel12d

[bijoux]

I still think the writers are doing this intentionally. It's impossible to achieve this level of wrong by happenstance. Yes, they're saying Laurel Lance is a hero, but they're showing Laurel chose to be BC solely to get closer to Oliver. That's all her last two episodes accomplished.

[Angel12d]

4 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I still think the writers are doing this intentionally. It's impossible to achieve this level of wrong by happenstance. Yes, they're saying Laurel Lance is a hero, but they're showing Laurel chose to be BC solely to get closer to Oliver. That's all her last two episodes accomplished.

That's so sad though. I just don't know. Intentionally suggesting that all Laurel ever did was to get close to Oliver? I mean, it does look that way after the last 2 episodes but until then I just assumed Laurel wanted to be her sister and had replaced her alcohol/pill addiction with being a vigilante. 

Yikes.

[Sasha]

18 hours ago, Genki said:

There was really no reason to have all the Lauriver retcon, the episode could have had the same outcome without it, but I think they wanted to give Fanservice to KC. 

I don't see this as fanservice at all. Tommy is barely cold in the ground and she is happy and ready to get back on the Oliver train. That wasn't grief it was joy. Anyone remember on Friday Night Lights when Lyla and Riggins hooked up right after Jason was injured? I could understand that as grief and comfort but the characters still took a major hit. It served the story.

What was gained by making Laurel out to be such a trifling hoe? Not to mention another reminder of the black hole of chemistry between SA & KC. Throw in the baby canary who is better than Laurel and this was not an episode to send off a "beloved" character. In four seasons I have never gotten the impression the writers cared for KC or Laurel. To me it seemd as if they were stuck with her they were going to make her look foolish at every turn. KC is strutting around like a badass in that ridiculous costume and squatting out an egg everytime she opened her mouth for the canary cry. I imagine the writers and crew snickering behind her back. I sure was. I only wish the infamous picture that was carried around like a damn rosary was a duck lip selfie.

My only hope is now that she  is dead we don't have to hear her name every damn episode like "what would jesus do." Please leave her and her toxic relationships in the dust where they belong.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Sasha

[AyChihuahua]

I feel like it could be a very poor attempt at fanservice? I honestly don't know, though. On the one hand, how can you not tell this is horrible? On the other hand, these same writers thought Samantha the lying hag who knowingly slept with her good friend's doucheking boyfriend and then lied about him knocking her up would be embraced as the Virgin Mother.

They're kinda dumb, is what I'm saying.

Re the costume, the strutting, and I'm guessing the squatting, that was all KC. They definitely may have been snickering at her, but if they were, it's totally her own fault. And she's the one who kept pushing that Oliver was the love of LL's life, which, lbr, is just beyond pathetic.

[looptab]

16 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

these same writers thought Samantha the lying hag who knowingly slept with her good friend's doucheking boyfriend and then lied about him knocking her up would be embraced as the Virgin Mother.

Well, she was..by some. She is the mother of his child! #NeverForget.

[Midnight Lullaby]

I'm not sure what they were trying to do but they said Laurel was a good person and the team loved her while showing Laurel being horrible and Oliver not giving a damn about her. Showing is always more powerful than telling so I don't think they were trying to make her look good.

I think they made the FBs about her and Oliver because another choice would have basically taken Oliver out of the episode but they could have shown their friendship in a good light instead they chose to hammer the idea of how toxic they were together and how pathetic Laurel has always been. I guess it can be seen as fanservice for the people who have always wanted them together even if they were toxic and even if it made Laurel look like a doormat.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Midnight Lullaby

[Sakura12]

That episode does sound like a terrible send off for a 4 season character. That was a character that's been all tell and not show, I suppose her death episode was more of the same. I hesitate to call it fanservice since they manged to make Laurel look even worse. Which is something they are good at. 

[looptab]

6 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

showing Laurel being horrible and Oliver not giving a damn about her.

I think the intention was to show that Laurel has always been a hero, and Oliver was feeling unworthy and that's why he escaped back to Lian Yu. Too bad that's not how it came across.

[Midnight Lullaby]

3 minutes ago, looptab said:

I think the intention was to show that Laurel has always been a hero, and Oliver was feeling unworthy and that's why he escaped back to Lian Yu. Too bad that's not how it came across.

But even there they had Oliver saying in his letter that she is the hero and that he cares about her but they showed her throwing herself at Oliver a week after Tommy's funeral where she said she loved him and saying "let's save the city together" when Oliver told her he wanted to do good that looked like a line to get in his pants. If they wanted that to mean something they should have had her being Idk, determined or torn or like at least she has given some thought to the idea but it felt like she was agreeing with him to keep him there with her, while you could see Oliver was torn about his failure, about the good he wanted to do..

That's not only not being a hero but also not being a nice human being.

It's the same old problem of telling/showing for me. They make Oliver tell he is unworthy of her but showing her acting worse than him it looks like a line (it's not you, it's me) to dump her.

[AyChihuahua]

I kind of think looptab is right, although I am mostly still flummoxed by it all. I think we're supposed to think she had great heroic plans, and we're not supposed to remember much good about Tommy, and we're supposed to be impressed by how self-sacrificing (to me, utterly pathetic) her ever-so-forgiving love is. Like she's so unselfish she'll continue to love this dude who crapped all over her for years. I have kind of a hard time believing they INTENTIONALLY sabotaged the character. I mean, her biggest fan wrote the episode with the "love of my life" line.

Honestly, though, I don't get it. I legit DO NOT understand. But I will say, this is KC's headcanon, so if they're trying to crap on her bc they always hated her, would they adopt her head canon as show canon? She doesn't seem like the kind of person who would understand, once she saw it on the screen, that it's totally hideous. She frankly doesn't seem that introspective to me. So is it all a big joke, but with the target of the joke forever unaware she's being made fun of? That is really mean, really unprofessional, and I can't see them intentionally creating a story arc that is horrible just to shame an actress, esp when the actress is unlikely even to understand she's been shamed.

I guess, based on my past experience with how stupid and tone-deaf these writers are, on a fairly regular basis, I'm going with they thought it was cool and are just largely clueless. I'm not tied to that interpretation, though, bc the whole thing just defies Earth logic and basic understanding of human emotions.

[ComicFan777]

Instead of the awful O/L flashbacks we got, I would have preferred a glimpse of a time when Oliver, Laurel, and Tommy were all just best friends (before love triangle, before the cheating) when things were simpler - maybe hanging out eating ice cream, watching a movie, and talking - Laurel could even express her ambitions to make the world a better place.  It would have made the picture more meaningful and no one would be painted in a bad light.  

I really hate to think that "simpler times" Laurel was referring to was when she was with Oliver while he was constantly cheating on her or running away from her.  I would rather think it was before everything got so complicated with her relationships, with simpler times where Laurel, Oliver, and Tommy were happy being best friends.  Of course, the show has to take the awful route with Laurel being a really bad person who was pining away for a man who treated her badly.  KC got what she wanted - she always thought Oliver was the love of her life - If the actress can't even respect her character, I guess, how can the audience expect anything more than what we got...in the end, Laurel was as delusional as Cupid.

[dtissagirl]

It's kind of TOO FUNNY FOREVER that it refocuses S2 Laurel. She wanted to save the city together with Oliver, but since he bailed, oh well, she upgraded her wardrobe, got a job at the DA's office, and went to work for The Man. Save the city who?

[Midnight Lullaby]

No, no, I don't think the writers were trying to shade KC with the way they wrote LL. I think though that they chose to portray the less flattering side of the character and I can't believe they were unaware of the way she was going to look. They used the FBs to also show Oliver's growth and I'm sure that was the intention too.

LL has always been a character with some negative traits, her selfishness and arrogance above all for me, and I think portraying the worse side of herself in FBs that were about her and Oliver was fitting. I'm sure she would have looked her best in FBs about her relationship with her father.

Oliver and Laurel brought out the worst in each other and it was shown in many occasion during the show. This is what I have always felt, but I know there are people who see it as a tragic love story so I guess it all depends on your POV. I think the writers picked a lane and wrote Laurel in a way that is the least appealing to me and probably the most to other type of fans, but true to who she was.

[AyChihuahua]

Who closes out a "heroic" character's time on a hero show by intentionally focusing on that character's worst traits?

I definitely agree with your POV comment, but mostly, I just think they're dumb and kind of weird about normal human emotions. Like Guggie thinking everyone would love the N/O wedding and Laurel using a voice synthesizer to fake out her dad. Maybe the writers spend too much time in LA and so no longer comprehend normal human emotions?

[dtissagirl]

I kind of honestly think it had less to do with Laurel, and more to do with the writers' 4 season long nightmare of the island picture of doom, and figuring out a way to solve THE MAIN PROMISE they made the audience in the pilot episode. I'm 100% sure that thing was nagging all of the EPs and writers ever since they gave up on L/O, but the fucking picture was still there, dangling, unsolved, AND PEOPLE ON THE INTERNETS WOULDN'T STOP ASKING ABOUT IT.

And this is what they came up with:

. Figure out a way to make the pic relevant again -- they chose to make it relevant to Laurel, instead of Oliver. I think at some point MG had even mentioned on Tumblr that Oliver had given the pic back?
. Then, figuring out a moment in S1-S2 for Oliver to give the pic back
. Wrap everything up in a bow with present time Laurel showing Oliver the pic again: what better than her last living moments? And oh hey, bonus: it also finally makes Laurel connect to Oliver in the A-plot for the first time in ages! Isn't it neat?

Then it was just a matter of scattering those scenes in these two episodes, while they got rid of KC at the same time. Two birds [heh], one picture of doom.

Moral of this story: don't make endgame promises in your pilot episode, stupid.

Edited April 29, 2016 by dtissagirl

[Midnight Lullaby]

"Heroic time" is debatable for me, lol.

But the problem for me is that they went with FBs of her and Oliver because there was also the issue of having to show Oliver's growth and at that point that mess we saw was true to who those two were together. They were never friends, just two people with a relationship that by my standards was awful. The writers wrote them like they have always done.

The only way out of this would have been showing FBs of her and her dad and she would have looked good and loved like they were telling me in present time, but that would have taken Oliver out of the show and they would have missed the chance to show Oliver's growth.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Midnight Lullaby

[thegirlsleuth]

I think this is a telling/showing disconnect.  The told us she was heroic, but they showed us in her actions that she was self-seeking, with a less than selfless motive. Not that characters can't be both--one of the things I used to love about Battlestar Galactica was that people would be heroes one week and villains the next, and they were still the same character--but Arrow isn't Battlestar and the way they talked about Laurel she was pretty much a saint.  As always with the writing on Arrow, there is the question "Did they do it intentionally, or is it just bad writing?"

[AyChihuahua]

I feel like we were going to get the parallel funerals regardless, and it couldn't be Sara's, bc Oliver wouldn't have been there at all, so it had to be Tommy's. They wanted to show him growing so they had to contradict their own comics and have him run away from the funeral. So then what could they have done to get the picture back in a position of importance and not destroy Laurel's character...they could have had him try to see her like he did in comics and her too devastated to see him. Then have him slip the letter and picture of doom under the door later?

At the very least, NONE of what they wanted to accomplish required her to be all smiley and giddy about the future with Oliver. That's my primary problem, and I just don't see how it was necessary. Crap, keep the kiss, even, but make it a sad kiss while they ACTUALLY reminisce about Tommy, v. think about him for two seconds before Laurel turns the convo to her. Then have her say something more like "I don't know what my future holds" sadly, v. "Woohoo, I'm gonna be banging Ollie and becoming Mrs. Laurel Queen after all!!! Tommy who?" If she'd been sad, Oliver could have been reminded how hurt people were and decide that is why he had to get away, vs. his on-screen "Holy shit, this crazy broad still wants to bang/marry me? I gots to GO!"

[Midnight Lullaby]

Yeah, but I also think in season 1 they showed Tommy was just a placeholder for her and she wanted Oliver so having her not really care about him and throw herself at Oliver for me fits with that. I have never understood why people romanticized Tommy and Laurel's relationship.

There were many ways to portray her in a better light in my POV but they wrote her like they did in season 1 so true to her character and terrible for me (season 1 LL was worse than season 2-3 combined for me). I liked Laurel only in late season 2 when she was going after Blood. That was the one version of her character I enjoyed but they have written her mainly in a way that I strongly disliked. This last episode was just another example.

[looptab]

3 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

But even there they had Oliver saying in his letter that she is the hero and that he cares about her but they showed her throwing herself at Oliver a week after Tommy's funeral where she said she loved him and saying "let's save the city together" when Oliver told her he wanted to do good that looked like a line to get in his pants. If they wanted that to mean something they should have had her being Idk, determined or torn or like at least she has given some thought to the idea but it felt like she was agreeing with him to keep him there with her, while you could see Oliver was torn about his failure, about the good he wanted to do..

That's not only not being a hero but also not being a nice human being.

It's the same old problem of telling/showing for me. They make Oliver tell he is unworthy of her but showing her acting worse than him it looks like a line (it's not you, it's me) to dump her.

Oh, I don't disagree. I was just offering what I thought the writers were trying to accomplish. Except the end result made her look even worse. I agree with what AyChihuahua suggested, the scene should have been bittersweet, they should have put more emphasis on Tommy, and since it had to be about heroism, make it as if Tommy's death and the Undertaking and everything that happened gave her a quiet, grim determination to do better in the future.

Instead it looked like she was ready to jump him and finally trap him, and he couldn't wait to get away from her.

Edited April 29, 2016 by looptab

[bijoux]

How did you read Oliver returning the photo to Laurel? I imagined it would be some sort of closure and I guess it could have been, only it wasn't really explicit IMO. Maybe I'm just distracted by everything else with Laurel in the past two episodes which has led me to believe that Oliver simply tried to cut any and all ties with the crazy lady.

[nksarmi]

I spent two (or was it three?) weeks thinking the photo return would be VERY sentimental and be the ultimate closure of their relationship - like it would really give me a reason to believe she carried her own photo around with her.  I pictured something like him telling her "I looked at this picture all the time because I wanted to get home and make up to you everything wrong thing I did - to become the man you deserved - the man you thought I was. But Laurel, I will never be that man. I want you to have this back because for a time - you were my hero. And I want to thank you. But I failed Tommy and I failed this city and now I know I'll never be the man you thought I was. Maybe I can at least be your friend - someday."

Or something along those lines. I mean, then I could believe that Laurel carried the photo to remind herself she could be a hero or something like that. Because honestly, her carrying around the photo in her BC outfit was really strange as hell.

I feel like they failed to make that last scene anything but a "Dear John" letter so I still don't understand why Laurel treasured the picture enough to carry it around with her. But whatever - she's dead so I'll let it all just RIP.

[Midnight Lullaby]

It looked like Oliver trying to cut ties with her to me too. Aside from the fact that the scene was unintentionally funny because it reminded me of Paul Sheldon running away from Annie Wilkes I think it was meant to give closure to their romantic relationship. They spent season 1 on Oliver trying to find his way back to Laurel (and the occasional girlfriends, lol) but I think in that moment he realized he has been chasing an idea, not a real person, and it didn't feel right, being with her didn't bring him peace and he couldn't stay there with her because he would have just hurt her, again. He didn't feel for her what he was supposed to and he couldn't give her that commitment she was so obviously seeking. He left to be alone and even when he came back he didn't look back.

[Angel12d]

I understand Oliver's reason for giving back the picture. I think he realized he had made a mistake (his face after the kiss said it all) and the picture and letter was the start of closure for him. And it obviously worked because he pretty much returned from the island at the start of s2 and told her they couldn't go back and then a few episodes later he pushed her away when she tried to kiss him. Then he slept with her sister again, all the while falling in love with Felicity. So the letter/returning of the picture worked for Oliver but it obviously didn't work for Laurel and that makes it all the more pathetic. He literally ran away from her/commitment yet again and she carried the picture of herself around like a damn trophy. I'm just...sigh. If that was me I would have burned it and moved on.

Obviously I never really liked Laurel (I like to state the obvious LOL) but they had an opportunity to send her out on a high and all I'm thinking is 'Oh Laurel' and not in a sweet way but in a 'I pity you' kind of way. Is that the way you send out a hero? Uh...no.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Angel12d

[TwistedandBored]

I think we can all agree that writers could have given LL/BC a better sendoff that highlighted her relationships well, but everything about her death/sendoff failed just like her character has in the past. In this, the writers were at least consistent. 

[tv echo]

Possible Laurel head canon... .

Until then, she didn't know that Oliver still had that photo.  He could've easily lost it or thrown it out during the 5 years he was away (or after he returned to Starling City in 2012).  So the fact that he still had it told her that he treasured it and her.  Giving the photo to her was a message that he had held onto her pic while he was lost and away. (Now that he was back, or at least a simple plane ride away, he didn't need it anymore.) That's why she held onto it and treasured it. It was a reminder of his love for her. 

Edited April 30, 2016 by tv echo

[BkWurm1]

When she told Oliver about the photo though, she said it reminded her of simpler times.  So I have to think she's remembering how happy and hopeful she had been about their future in the moment that she'd given the picture to Ollie, never mind that Sara pretty much was creeping onto the boat at the same time. 

[apinknightmare]

19 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

When she told Oliver about the photo though, she said it reminded her of simpler times.  So I have to think she's remembering how happy and hopeful she had been about their future in the moment that she'd given the picture to Ollie, never mind that Sara pretty much was creeping onto the boat at the same time. 

Ah, those simpler times, Ollie. Remember them? Back when you cheated on me and treated me like garbage, and I pretended not to notice? How great they were! ;)