Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[statsgirl]

Meanwhile, I'm still boggled that the Ray/Felicity could only happen because Felicity decided to leave an assassin in a cage in the Arrow Cave with only Laurel, of all people, sticking around (and not even staying around - she was gone when Thea arrived). I realize that that also helped to ensure that Felicity wasn't in the Arrow Cave when Thea came by - but it still made no sense.

To be fair, Diggle told everyone to go while he talked to Oliver alone.  (Why?  Why couldn't he have said it with the people who care about Oliver around?)

 

Laurel came back; Felicity went to try to save Ray.  Because that's such a romantic thing to do.  (I remember how much I used to hate it in romance books when the hero saves the idiot girl.)

 

The writers haven't forgotten how to write for Oliver and Felicity. That scene showed me that. But right now they are truly writing for plot. They need Oliver and Felicity to be odds/apart for whatever dramatic thing they might be planning at the end of the season. And the characters and the relationship are suffering for it.

I don't know which is worse, forgetting how to write for Oliver and Felicity (although a lot of that scene was in the acting), which would imply their ignorant, or deliberately writing them at odds to keep them apart.  Of the two, I think the latter is worse, and that's what I suspect MG's doing.

 

 

but she was, seemingly, doing that while Oliver was on his way to probably die.  I would have thought that would be a libido-killer.  Really, I can't imagine anyone doing that while a friend's life was in danger, much less this man one supposedly loves/loved.  Maybe she's just bored with his constant near-death experiences.  

If I still cared enough to fanwank, I'd say she was desperate to prove that she can still be alive while Oliver yet again goes off to kill himself.  Like when someone you love dying and you have sex just to know you aren't dead too.

 

But I don't care enough about either Oliver or Felicity  any moreto argue the point.

[BkWurm1]

but she was, seemingly, doing that while Oliver was on his way to probably die.  I would have thought that would be a libido-killer.  Really, I can't imagine anyone doing that while a friend's life was in danger, much less this man one supposedly loves/loved.  Maybe she's just bored with his constant near-death experiences.

 

The fact that Oliver refused to listen and went off to face the very man that had nearly killed him (I really don't think she knew Dig was even involved) is the very thing that spurred her on to grabbing what life put in front of her.  Going to Ray and forcing him to step back was her way of coping with Oliver not listening to her and likely going off to get himself killed.  I think it falls under the near death experience troupe or the we almost died, I need to feel alive cliché.  Plus stress looks for a release valve. 

 

Edited to say:  Yeah, like what Statsgirl said.  ;)

Edited February 27, 2015 by BkWurm1

[wonderwall]

I honestly can't blame Felicity for wanting to be a little bit more in control of her life considering her world is falling spectacularly apart because Oliver keeps on leaving and has a death wish which is causing Felicity to stumble. I know people are questioning whether she loves him or not, I think she does, she's just repressing the hell out of those emotions because they only cause her pain.

 

So while she can't control her situation with Oliver because he just can't seem to listen to Felicity, I understand why she'd want to be with Ray. She can control her situation when she's with him, Ray is essentially the safe option. 

 

While the timing of it was iffy, I thoroughly believe that Felicity couldn't just sit in the foundry all helpless. I think that Ray offered a few things in that moment:

• Taking her mind off of Oliver potentially dying again because she can't do anything about it, she can't even help (she didn't know Digg was going with him because no one told her)
• A safe option that she can easily take control of
• Transparency, because Felicity knows what she gets with Ray. 
• Help Felicity feel needed

 

I'd say these reasons aren't really meant for a long term relationship. In fact, it all seems kind of boring to me.

[wonderwall]

ANYWAYSSS, I'm just sitting here basking over the fact that the Olicity kiss in episode 1 was longer than the R/F sex scene (if you can even call it that). 

 

I mean, there was nothing to that scene. No music, no foreplay, just 3 seconds of kissing and then BAM Ray is leaving Felicity alone in bed to try out his new playtoy. If that doesn't say anything about how temporary this relationship is, then I don't know what will. 

 

Speaking of which, I just found this that corroborates what I just said but is more eloquently written:

 

A 30-second sex scene. No frantic tearing of the clothes, no mood music, no foreplay. Not even a post-coital basking-in-the-afterglow talk. They couldn’t be treating this with any less respect. Wham, bam, thank you ma’am. Oliver and Felicity’s kiss got more than 30-seconds. It got the red-carpet treatment while this was a back door hush-hush cover up. I mean, do you guys even remember Oliver’s relationships/sex scenes in the past couple of seasons? McKenna got the soaring soundtrack, the tender kisses while clothing was slowly removed. I actually have that gifset queued up because it was so pretty and sweet and tender. Helena got that treatment; then Laurel gets the same treatment (okay so the song choice was not exactly subtle and I’m pretty sure we weren’t meant to be on Oliver’s side in that one). The difference? Those were presented to us as actual, legitimate choices for Oliver. Oliver was actively trying to be with those people, for whatever reasons. I’m not suggesting that Felicity is using Ray (though subconsciously, perhaps) or that they won’t be in a relationship – it’s looking likely that they will be for a while – but the show isn’t even pretending that this is some kind of independent, legitimate choice. This is a rebound, pure and simple, and we – and they – all know where we are headed. And that ain’t gonna be to Ray-ville. - Source

Edited February 27, 2015 by wonderwall

[Trini]

Hmmm. Maybe Ray flew off to get Felicity some post-coital 'thank you' flowers. She helped him finish the suit after all.

[CabotCove]

I can only speak for myself here, but if I cared at all about Oliver in a romantic context I'd probably be pissed about Felicity and Ray, but the more Oliver becomes Batman, the less I feel for him.  I don't understand the choices he's making, and that makes him a less desirable romantic lead.

I know there are accusations that Felicity is being written differently or badly, but I think Oliver might be getting some of the worst writing on the show.  He's not the character I was invested in during the first season.

 

Agree. They are definitely writing, mostly for the plot when it comes to that character, he has regressed so much this season, its beyond normal even for Oliver.

 

I like Felicity and I don't know if everyone who doesn't like "Raylicity" is sexist.

 

No, but slut shaming Felicity for sleeping with a man one does not approve of is, or ranting on her for sleeping/dating with a colleague when the same is not said of the male(s) in question. I think thats why some Tumblr people have been on the defense about Felicity.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Conell

[lemotomato]

No, but slut shaming Felicity for sleeping with a man one does not approve of is, or ranting on her for sleeping/dating with a colleague when the same is not said of the male(s) in question. I think thats why some Tumblr people have been on the defense about Felicity.

I'm really tired of any criticism being directed at the Felicity-Ray hookup automatically dismissed as "slut shaming". 

 

I don't care if Felicity has been banging a new guy every night since Oliver pushed her away in 3x01. I don't want or expect her to sit around and wait for Oliver. I wished she had hooked up with Barry when she was in Central City because they were really cute and it probably would have been good for both of them. 

 

I don't like Raylicity because I don't like Ray. I think his behavior towards Felicity has been inappropriate on multiple occasions throughout what was supposed to be their courtship. I don't like that he's been written as Oliver-lite because it makes it look like Felicity is settling for some poor imitation because she can't get the original. She deserves better. And does it make it more fair if I call Ray an idiot for sleeping with an employee? Because he is. If Felicity ever wanted to call him out on his behavior, he'd at best only cost his company a hefty settlement, at worst get fired by the Board of Directors.

 

In fact, if it turns out that this whole Ray-Felicity "romance" is a ploy for her to pull an Isabel Rochev and steal the company away from him, I will stand on a chair and cheer for her right before taking out a full page ad in a newspaper declaring how clever MG and the writers are (Ok, no I won't. That would never happen because it actually would be a surprising plot twist.)

Edited February 27, 2015 by lemotomato

[CabotCove]

I'm really tired of any criticism being directed at the Felicity-Ray hookup automatically dismissed as "slut shaming".

I'm not saying its from you, so dont take this personally. Believe me the slut shaming exists, I have seen it or just look around tumbrl. I have seen the nasty things thats been said about Felicity coming from the people who claim to love her. Simply not liking Raylicity is not the same as "slut shaming". And I understand why some folks may not like workplaces romances, (there are some valid reasons for that) thats also a far cry from being sexist about it and slut shaming.

I don't like that he's been written as Oliver-lite because it makes it look like Felicity is settling for some poor imitation because she can't get the original.

He was introduced as Oliver lite, but I wouldn't say that he is an exact clone. They are quite a number of differences between the two characters, if anything Ray is a lot more like Felicity. Edited February 27, 2015 by Conell

[SmallScreenDiva]

I was going to post this in the Laurel thread but it's really more about her relationship with Oliver, so here ... When she asks him "How do you do that?" about lying to her face about Sara's killer, I think that's the first time in a good long while that Katie's delivery was spot on. Just that one line, which was gut-wrenchingly sad. Like she just realized she doesn't know this man at all. And she really doesn't.

 

(Then I think they used a different take after Oliver asks "Do what?" and Laurel responds angrily with "Lie. To my face" because the tone shift was jarring, there was nothing of the sadness. I'll blame the editing than Katie's acting.) Oliver has never found it difficult to lie to her, pre-Island with all the cheating, post-Island with everything else. Something the show has repeatedly shown he has difficulty doing with Felicity. Yes, he gave her all those silly excuses but I think they both knew those were silly lies. I'm sure someone will point it out if I'm wrong, but I don't think Oliver has ever lied to Felicity, not since she asked if she could trust him and handed him a copy of the list.

[Password]

It's a great moment of clarity. It also makes me think the EPs are spying on these forums and other places people point out that Oliver can only lie to Laurel. At this point it's natural for him because he did it for so long. It's almost automatic.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Limbo

[Danny Franks]

You can't fight for someone who isn't willing to fight for themselves.

 

Same goes for Felicity. She doesn't want to fight for a future with Oliver, so even if he changes his mind, it's going nowhere. The never-changing story of love triangles on television.

It seems to me that they both need a clean break. Oliver needs some time away from constantly being guilt-tripped about every decision, and Felicity needs some time not feeling like she has to be Jiminy Cricket. Sadly, I doubt Ray is the solution to that. Sadly, it seems like the writers actually starting to focus on this 'ship has resulted in exactly what I feared: Two characters that I don't like the sound of very much.

[Chaser]

It goes beyond how easy it is for him to lie to her. He looked a little sad at the end, but he wasn't remorseful. He wasn't even struggling over the choice not to tell her. How she would feel or what right she had to know didn't seem to burden him much. For him, it was all logic as proven by him getting in her face after she went after Malcolm.

 

"This is why I don't tell you things." The lack of trust or belief that she would listen speaks volumes. Granted, he was right. She went off as she has before, but he didn't give her that choice. This relationship is a mess. I don't even understand how they can be friends.

 

Same goes for Felicity. She doesn't want to fight for a future with Oliver, so even if he changes his mind, it's going nowhere. The never-changing story of love triangles on television.

It seems to me that they both need a clean break. Oliver needs some time away from constantly being guilt-tripped about every decision, and Felicity needs some time not feeling like she has to be Jiminy Cricket. Sadly, I doubt Ray is the solution to that. Sadly, it seems like the writers actually starting to focus on this 'ship has resulted in exactly what I feared: Two characters that I don't like the sound of very much.

 

How do you want to see Felicity 'fight' for Oliver? I keep seeing this thrown around, but I don't understand how that translates. Oliver is making some bad choices, life ending, soul-crushing choices. She doesn't support those choices and I'm glad for it. To me, that is a verison of fighting for someone. If she was taking his side on everything right now I would be so disapointed. That would tell me, she gave up on Oliver and accepted the Arrow.

[Password]

This relationship is a mess. I don't even understand how they can be friends.

Exactly. I don't particularly understand how Laurel can stand to be around Oliver.

[Danny Franks]

How do you want to see Felicity 'fight' for Oliver? I keep seeing this thrown around, but I don't understand how that translates. Oliver is making some bad choices, life ending, soul-crushing choices. She doesn't support those choices and I'm glad for it. To me, that is a verison of fighting for someone. If she was taking his side on everything right now I would be so disapointed. That would tell me, she gave up on Oliver and accepted the Arrow.

 

Remember when he wanted to give himself up to Slade at the end of season 2, and they tranqed him to stop him, then wouldn't let him leave the lair until they'd talked some sort of sense into him? Something like that might be a start. By the sounds of it, Felicity is passively (or passive aggressively) accepting his stupid choices and leaving him to it. That's not even on a romantic level, that's a failure on a friend level.

 

I've not watched the episodes, but from what I can tell from reading all these posts is, no one has ever really demanded or even asked that Oliver explain himself and explain what he went through and why he so needs Merlyn's help. And you can't fight for (or against) something, if you don't understand it. It's all very well saying, 'he's self destructive so what can she do?' She can try. Like she did before.

 

And if Oliver is just going to be miserable and harbour martyr fantasies, then so be it, but all his friends accepting his idiocy will do is wrap him even more in those fantasies. 'No one cares anyway, so why shouldn't I do this stupid shit to myself?'

[kismet]

I was going to post this in the Laurel thread but it's really more about her relationship with Oliver, so here ... When she asks him "How do you do that?" about lying to her face about Sara's killer, I think that's the first time in a good long while that Katie's delivery was spot on. Just that one line, which was gut-wrenchingly sad. Like she just realized she doesn't know this man at all. And she really doesn't.

 

(Then I think they used a different take after Oliver asks "Do what?" and Laurel responds angrily with "Lie. To my face" because the tone shift was jarring, there was nothing of the sadness. I'll blame the editing than Katie's acting.) Oliver has never found it difficult to lie to her, pre-Island with all the cheating, post-Island with everything else. Something the show has repeatedly shown he has difficulty doing with Felicity. Yes, he gave her all those silly excuses but I think they both knew those were silly lies. I'm sure someone will point it out if I'm wrong, but I don't think Oliver has ever lied to Felicity, not since she asked if she could trust him and handed him a copy of the list.

Besides the bogus lies/excuses in S1 to cover for the Arrow, I don't think he's ever lied to Felicity and certainly not about the big things. Its one of the hallmark differences in the relationships. Even in all of their angst this season, he's never lied or misdirected the truth. He's certainly isolated himself and perhaps has not been as open, but he's never lied. And I think if she asked him to be honest at any point in the last 14 episodes, he would have been, problem was she never asked.

 

Sidenote - I also did like KC's acting in that scene. She does fall victim to bad editing & writing at times. But this episode I think was one of her better ones.

Edited February 27, 2015 by kismet

[NoWayOut]

Oliver can't always depend on others to fight for his soul or to help him see the light. His current decision to protect Malcolm is so monumentally idiotic that it should be enough to make him step back and go, "Wow, maybe I shouldn't do this." But no, he's going to continue to protect Malcolm because Ra's hurt his feelings.

[Chaser]

Remember when he wanted to give himself up to Slade at the end of season 2, and they tranqed him to stop him, then wouldn't let him leave the lair until they'd talked some sort of sense into him? Something like that might be a start. By the sounds of it, Felicity is passively (or passive aggressively) accepting his stupid choices and leaving him to it. That's not even on a romantic level, that's a failure on a friend level.

 

I've not watched the episodes, but from what I can tell from reading all these posts is, no one has ever really demanded or even asked that Oliver explain himself and explain what he went through and why he so needs Merlyn's help. And you can't fight for (or against) something, if you don't understand it. It's all very well saying, 'he's self destructive so what can she do?' She can try. Like she did before.

 

And if Oliver is just going to be miserable and harbour martyr fantasies, then so be it, but all his friends accepting his idiocy will do is wrap him even more in those fantasies. 'No one cares anyway, so why shouldn't I do this stupid shit to myself?'

I get this and I don't at the same time. I think too much responsiblity is put on Felicity to do the heavy lifting. Its a two way street, she put it on the table in 3.12 why working with Malcolm doesn't fly. Why is it up to Felicity to try and understand? Why can't Oliver try and explain? Oliver has cut himself emotionally from Felicity since 3.02. It didn't just happen in one episode, this isn't Oliver having a moment when Slade was taking the Glades. This is Oliver rejecting two years worth of growth over and over in her eyes.

[Danny Franks]

I get this and I don't at the same time. I think too much responsiblity is put on Felicity to do the heavy lifting. Its a two way street, she put it on the table in 3.12 why working with Malcolm doesn't fly. Why is it up to Felicity to try and understand? Why can't Oliver try and explain? Oliver has cut himself emotionally from Felicity since 3.02. It didn't just happen in one episode, this isn't Oliver having a moment when Slade was taking the Glades. This is Oliver rejecting two years worth of growth over and over in her eyes.

 

They should both be trying, if they ever want anything to work between them. But Felicity knows Oliver never volunteers information unless he's practically at gunpoint. Has she tried asking him why he's doing the things he's doing? If she did, he might well explain it to her. Making statements like "I don't want to be a woman you love" and storming off aren't exactly inducements to talk things out.

 

But this is yet another reason why I hate love triangles. They rely on the people acting like stubborn, closed off, oblivious idiots to work. Something that they would have happily discussed in detail just last season is now a big confrontation and war of words, because it needs to create a rift between them. It stinks.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Danny Franks

[Lady Calypso]

I get this and I don't at the same time. I think too much responsiblity is put on Felicity to do the heavy lifting. Its a two way street, she put it on the table in 3.12 why working with Malcolm doesn't fly. Why is it up to Felicity to try and understand? Why can't Oliver try and explain? Oliver has cut himself emotionally from Felicity since 3.02. It didn't just happen in one episode, this isn't Oliver having a moment when Slade was taking the Glades. This is Oliver rejecting two years worth of growth over and over in her eyes.

 

I definitely agree with this, and I also agree with Danny Frank's post. I think that Oliver's a tough guy to be around. He's damaged and he's not an open person at all, so I can only imagine how difficult it can be to be his friend. Felicity's done a lot to try to get Oliver to open up and he doesn't really do it with her. He also pushes her away constantly and makes the decisions regarding their relationship, so I can get why Felicity's frustrated. Also, I'm on her side, as well as everyone else, in regards to Oliver working with Malcolm. Worst idea Oliver's had yet, and he's had quite a few dumb moments. Does Felicity deserve better? Probably. She's done everything she can with Oliver and it's quite possible she's tired of being the only one making effort with them. She has to convince him to even share his feelings and that can't be easy. So her running off to Ray as a possible replacement I guess makes sense. He's basically Oliver, except that he shares everything with her and he doesn't have as much baggage as Oliver.

 

But...then I think about the last two seasons with Felicity and how she never gave up on him, even during his most dumb and vile moments, how she supported him, yelled at him and made sure he didn't retreat back to his early self. She made sure he never shut people out and yes, it took a while but there was progress. Why does it seem like she's giving up on him now? I feel like she isn't trying anymore, which ok I get that she could feel like she's had enough. It's just a shame because that's what made Team Arrow special. No matter how awful Oliver was being or how cold he was being, Felicity and Diggle never gave up on him. They worked hard to help him be a better person and he actually has made quite a bit of progress. Look, this season he took the risk and asked Felicity out. That's huge for him. Then, yes, he retreated again and I get Felicity was probably hurt by that. But I guess I was just hoping they wouldn't go this cliche route of Felicity and Oliver drift apart and Felicity gets a new bf as a rebound guy, while Oliver mopes. In an early season 2 world, Oliver would have attempted to retreat but Felicity wouldn't have let him. Her and Diggle would have made sure he didn't blame himself for the bomb going off in the restaurant and almost killing Felicity. They would have talked to him and made sure he was ok. 

 

Maybe I just expected more out of Olicity this season because of their already unique relationship. But now Oliver's miserable and probably feels like he's lost everyone but his sister, Felicity's drifting apart from Team Arrow and the relationship they once had isn't there right now. Felicity knows how difficult Oliver can be, which is why I'm confused as to why it feels like she's giving up on him and saying 'well, I can't convince him otherwise. Better let him do whatever he wants'. What's really changed that would make her change her tune here? The fact that Oliver expressed his feelings toward her before he went off to his death? It's certainly not just about Malcolm. 

 

So, I know Oliver still has a ways to go and he needs to be a better communicator. It IS a two way street and Oliver and Felicity need to be working together and talking to each other, not just one to the other like Felicity has been doing. But Felicity also needs to not give up on Oliver, because she knows how difficult he can be and how he has some serious issues. If she can't handle it, then she needs to be honest with everyone about that. But she also can't be passive aggressive with him, because he isn't the only one who's changing; it's her too, and not in the greatest way. I still love her, but I understand that she also needs to get her shit together. 

Edited February 27, 2015 by jessied112

[KirkB]

I could actually buy Felicity just being tired. She keeps trying to get Oliver to talk. To explain. To help her understand. Even to let her in. Yet time and again he pushes her away. He tells her that he loves her but can't be with her. You can only beat your head against the same wall so many times before the concussion finally gets to you. She hasn't necessarily given up on him, she's just sick of being the one who makes all the effort.

[apinknightmare]

They should both be trying, if they ever want anything to work between them. But Felicity knows Oliver never volunteers information unless he's practically at gunpoint. Has she tried asking him why he's doing the things he's doing? If she did, he might well explain it to her. Making statements like "I don't want to be a woman you love" and storming off aren't exactly inducements to talk things out.

 

He has explained to her (and Diggle) why he's doing what he's doing - he thinks Malcolm is the only one who can teach him what he needs to learn in order to defeat Ra's (and how can she tell him otherwise? She wasn't there -she's never faced Ra's, and she doesn't know how to fight), and he's got to protect Thea. Of course, we found out at the end of the last episode that he's acting stupidly because he's angry Ra's was able to beat him and he felt helpless about it. And Diggle only managed to get that out of him while they were chained to a floor getting ready to die.

 

Felicity has been fighting for Oliver for a year and half now. She's been fighting for Oliver, himself, apart from their personal relationship. She fought for him when he decided he didn't want to kill anymore. She fought for him when he was going crazy over Slade. She fought for him when he wanted to give himself up. She fought for him when he wanted to give up because she thought he failed his loved ones. She risked her LIFE in order to help him defeat Slade. She tried to get him to see reason when he wanted to retreat back into the hood after Sara died. She stood by him through his questionable decision making in the earlier half of the season, with bringing Malcolm under his protection, and she supported him when he found out Thea was Sara's killer. When he was packing up to leave to go to Nanda Parbat, she told him that she didn't want him to go but that she knew better than to ask him to stay, and he thanked her for it. Like...at what point does Oliver start being responsible for himself?

 

How can she fight for him when he's not even being honest with himself about why he's doing the things that he's doing? All last episode he was determined to do whatever to keep Thea from being responsible for Malcolm's murder (and she helped him when he asked her to), until he admitted that wasn't really it.

 

There's being a good friend to someone, and then there's allowing someone to use you as a crutch and enabling them. Felicity has been a good friend to Oliver, and she's being a good friend to him by pushing him - by not putting up with his BS and challenging his poor decision making. She's been doing that since the beginning of the season, and she finally reached her breaking point. To me, at this point, it's not even about love or friendship. Oliver's got to find a reason to fight for and love Oliver independent of Felicity dragging him along and giving him pep talks at every turn. He's been through a lot, I get that. But his personal growth isn't 100% on Felicity - and thus far she's shouldered more than her fair share of the burden.

 

ETA: Even after Thea, the person he loves more than anyone and has nearly died to keep safe, begged him not to go and fight Ra's because she couldn't bear to lose him, he STILL WENT. So, it's not a love triangle issue at all here - it's an Oliver needing to be stupid and pigheaded and reckless in order to keep Malcolm Merlyn in the picture issue.

Edited February 27, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Password]

I could actually buy Felicity just being tired.

I agree. I think emotionally she's exhausted when it comes to Oliver. It comes across as her giving up, but I think we need to give her the benefit of the doubt here. It's not what we're used to seeing, but we've also never experienced this level of idiocy from Oliver. It'll be interesting to see him being supportive of her (I hope) in the upcoming episodes because it's a good opportunity to fix their broken trust.

[Rina99]

I could actually buy Felicity just being tired. She keeps trying to get Oliver to talk. To explain. To help her understand. Even to let her in. Yet time and again he pushes her away. He tells her that he loves her but can't be with her. You can only beat your head against the same wall so many times before the concussion finally gets to you. She hasn't necessarily given up on him, she's just sick of being the one who makes all the effort.

 

 

All this does is make it even more clear how dumb an idea it was to ever think of involving the two of them romantically.  Oliver is simply not the right person for her, and she isn't for him.   On some level, he is always going to close himself off unless he gets some intense therapy, and I actually don't think she should wait around for him to become what she wants.  It's clear that she actually belongs with someone like Barry or Roy.  

 

I don't know what the writers intent was, but that's what I've been getting from all of this.  I'm desperately hoping for a reset next season, and to forget that they ever tried to go out, because this has just been awful.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Rina99

[tv echo]

I haven't given up on Oliver and Felicity.  Before this season, they had so many moments where they just felt right together on so many levels.  Maybe it's because the natural chemistry between SA and EBR is just off the charts.  So I blame this season's f**ked up storytelling and OOC writing.  

 

But opinions can differ.  I see no chemistry between Ray and Felicity, but others do.  (shrug)

[NoWayOut]

You don't even have to look back at S1 and S2 for good moments. I thought they were so good together in the crossover episodes. Had I watched those episodes without prior knowledge of them, I'd thought they were a couple. It's not that I think the writers don't know how to write Olicity in general, it's that they don't know how to properly write ways to keep Oliver and Felicity apart.

[wonderwall]

All this does is make it even more clear how dumb an idea it was to ever think of involving the two of them romantically.  Oliver is simply not the right person for her, and she isn't for him.   On some level, he is always going to close himself off unless he gets some intense therapy, and I actually don't think she should wait around for him to become what she wants.  It's clear that she actually belongs with someone like Barry or Roy.  

 

I don't know what the writers intent was, but that's what I've been getting from all of this.  I'm desperately hoping for a reset next season, and to forget that they ever tried to go out, because this has just been awful.

 

I respectfully disagree. Every couple goes through issues. Oliver has always been one who had trouble letting people in. Who never really explained what he was thinking, why would that magically disappear now? Because he loves Felicity? No. That's not how it works. What Oliver and Felicity are facing now are fundamental issues that every relationship needs, communication. And that's not because they're a couple, that's because Oliver is a closed off idiot and Felicity is one that needs transparency. They were always like this. But now that they're in the middle of friends and something more, it's causing issues. But that doesn't mean that things won't change.

 

Here's the thing, Oliver is still growing as a person. Do I think O/F are good for each other now? No way. But when Oliver grows and learns to communicate like a normal person, then I think that's when O/F can actually try to pursue a long term relationship with one another. 

 

But that doesn't mean one should write off the relationship completely (over one issue). It all depends on how much they care for one another. Do they love each other enough to jump over this hurdle? I guess that's an answer we'll be seeing in the later part of this season. If not, then yeah, they're not meant to be. But if they CAN jump over this hurdle, then I just think that O/F's relationship will be stronger for it. 

[dtissagirl]

It's not that I think the writers don't know how to write Olicity in general, it's that they don't know how to properly write ways to keep Oliver and Felicity apart.

THIS. It feels counterintuitive to the organic build up of the storyline. Because it is. They're writing against the grain. Felicity and Oliver used to have pretty good comunication between them, and an easy understanding of each other. They had to destroy those two things to not put them together, hence the mess. I've stopped understanding motivation several episodes ago. ALL I see is WRITERS WRITING, instead of the actual story.

[lemotomato]

All this does is make it even more clear how dumb an idea it was to ever think of involving the two of them romantically. Oliver is simply not the right person for her, and she isn't for him. On some level, he is always going to close himself off unless he gets some intense therapy, and I actually don't think she should wait around for him to become what she wants. It's clear that she actually belongs with someone like Barry or Roy.

I don't know what the writers intent was, but that's what I've been getting from all of this. I'm desperately hoping for a reset next season, and to forget that they ever tried to go out, because this has just been awful.

I also disagree. What the point of pairing up Felicity with two guys that are just like her? That makes sense in real life, but it makes for really boring TV.

As much as I've hated what they've done to Olicity this season, I know what they're trying to write-- an "epic" kind of romance. In the words of Logan from "Veronica Mars", "Lives ruined, blood shed. Epic... They don't write songs about the [relationships] that come easy."

Edited February 28, 2015 by lemotomato

[Danny Franks]

THIS. It feels counterintuitive to the organic build up of the storyline. Because it is. They're writing against the grain. Felicity and Oliver used to have pretty good comunication between them, and an easy understanding of each other. They had to destroy those two things to not put them together, hence the mess. I've stopped understanding motivation several episodes ago. ALL I see is WRITERS WRITING, instead of the actual story.

 

Yep. I've always said that as soon as you can see the writing decision for something that happens in a piece of entertainment, then it's failed on a fundamental level. Your suspense of disbelief is gone, and you're analysing the creative choices made, instead of enjoying the story. Now, that's fine for a critic, but for someone who just wants to be entertained with a good story and charismatic performances? Not so good.

 

It seems that nearly everything that has happened in season 3 of this show has clearly been 'because the writers need it to happen to tell their story'. That is just the wrong way to go about telling any story. If you need a character to do something they wouldn't normally do, then you're writing it wrong. Story should come from characters, not the other way around.

 

So when they have Oliver refuse to talk or listen, or Felicity just snap at him or give up, then I call bullshit writing. Because while that may once have been their dynamic, they grew so far past that in the second season that it feels utterly disingenuous to just regress the characters so far, simply to service the romantic angst they want to write.

[lizonthefritz]

What's super frustrating is they have kind of shown us how wonderful they could be together in the Arrow/Flash crossovers. They acted so in tune and married and I could totally imagine that's how they were in those missing five months, and how they could be in the future, if the show would let them. The potential was so obvious. What's great is that nothing has to change and the show would still be full on action and drama but Oliver could have a shred of happiness amid the darkness. Sigh.

Plus, Oliver having something worth living for actually ups the stakes for him and for the show. A hero who's willing to lay down his life every other week for the sake of this person and that? Who cares when he's not really making a sacrifice; when he's expecting to die that way one of these days? Now give me someone whose only wish is to make it home at the end of the day - that guy going out and putting his life on the line is someone I'm scared for.

 

As for relationships this season, my biggest wish at the moment is that the only one left standing by the finale is Diggle/Lyla. I hope Felicity breaks off with Ray, but also tells Oliver that while she may love him, she doesn't trust him with her heart (after the mess he's made of things) and they should go back to doing what they do best - kicking bad guys' butts and taking names. Then next season they can start with a fresh slate. And hopefully get it right this time.

[kismet]

Yep. I've always said that as soon as you can see the writing decision for something that happens in a piece of entertainment, then it's failed on a fundamental level. Your suspense of disbelief is gone, and you're analysing the creative choices made, instead of enjoying the story. Now, that's fine for a critic, but for someone who just wants to be entertained with a good story and charismatic performances? Not so good.

 

It seems that nearly everything that has happened in season 3 of this show has clearly been 'because the writers need it to happen to tell their story'. That is just the wrong way to go about telling any story. If you need a character to do something they wouldn't normally do, then you're writing it wrong. Story should come from characters, not the other way around.

 

So when they have Oliver refuse to talk or listen, or Felicity just snap at him or give up, then I call bullshit writing. Because while that may once have been their dynamic, they grew so far past that in the second season that it feels utterly disingenuous to just regress the characters so far, simply to service the romantic angst they want to write.

The saddest part, is the writers could have gotten romantic angst and still kept the lines of communication open. S1&2 O&F did not always agree, but they talked. You could have had them diametrically opposed on major issues (MM, OQ deathwish) but still kept them talking. You could have preserved their friendship and just have them choose to avoid romantic entanglement thus bypass this hyped up angst which seemed a little melodramatic considering the extent of their romantic relationship consisted of a date & 1 kiss. I mean R&F had accomplished that in a few episodes. The show would have been more tolerable if they had amped up Raylicity sooner by having her actually choose to be with him for him prior to OQ's death. It would have been nice for her to actively pursue RP romantically for his own merits. Instead, RP seems like an afterthought or rebound. They had the perfect opportunity for FS to make a mature decision and completely walk away from OQ romantically in mid s3a while still maintaining a professional & friend like relationship with OQ. Instead everything just dangled between & seeped everything in melodrama.

[dtissagirl]

I know some of you guys still worry they're gonna revert to Laurel/Oliver in the future, but this mess they made out of Felicity/Oliver shows me they don't need to. It looks to me like they were dead set on hitting some very particular romantic story beats from the start, and since they failed with Laurel, they're just repeating them with Felicity. Miscommunications galore, badly written speeches, talking at each other instead of to each other, and a love triangle with the woman at the center.

It actually makes me sad it's not Tommy instead of Palmer. 'Cause Tommy was a way better constructed character on his own, instead of just an Oliver avatar.

[NumberCruncher]

As for relationships this season, my biggest wish at the moment is that the only one left standing by the finale is Diggle/Lyla. I hope Felicity breaks off with Ray, but also tells Oliver that while she may love him, she doesn't trust him with her heart (after the mess he's made of things) and they should go back to doing what they do best - kicking bad guys' butts and taking names. Then next season they can start with a fresh slate. And hopefully get it right this time.

This. They've fucked things up so much between Oliver and Felicity this season that even if Ray is out of the picture I'm not sure I want them to get together quickly because of the leftover carnage from the hot mess that is S3. Let them go back to being friends and start the slow build over again--this time allowing the audience to see exactly why they're so good for each other.

Edited February 27, 2015 by NumberCruncher

[statsgirl]

My two cents on the slut-shaming:  Personally, I think hooking up with Ray when Felicity is in love with Oliver is needy and makes her look pathetic, and I'd say the same if she were male.  Oliver hooking up with Sara was bad enough but Oliver didn't think he was in love with someone else at the time.  If he did, it was as bad as what Felicity did in 315.

 

When the person you love rejects you, strength isn't finding the nearest person who admires you and jumping their pole, it's saying "I don't need a man (or woman) to be whole, I'm just fine as I am."

 

How can she fight for him when he's not even being honest with himself about why he's doing the things that he's doing? All last episode he was determined to do whatever to keep Thea from being responsible for Malcolm's murder (and she helped him when he asked her to), until he admitted that wasn't really it.

[snip]

ETA: Even after Thea, the person he loves more than anyone and has nearly died to keep safe, begged him not to go and fight Ra's because she couldn't bear to lose him, he STILL WENT. So, it's not a love triangle issue at all here - it's an Oliver needing to be stupid and pigheaded and reckless in order to keep Malcolm Merlyn in the picture issue.

Oliver may have explained to Diggle and Felicity why he's doing it, but he's shut the book on any feedback about it.  You can't fight for someone who's not listening. All you do is end up hurting yourself.

 

From the Spoiler discussion thread:

 

I used to think differently because I was naive and hopeful but I don't think there's much chance of Olicity happening this season. They've left the whole Raylicity thing play out way too late. We've only got 8 episodes left.

 

I do think there's a chance Raylicity will break up and Felicity will finally tell Oliver she loves him (I'm still holding out hope that she does) but as for any further progress beyond that? Doubtful.

It doesn't matter to me when they break up because it's already spoiled Olicity for me.  It  was bad enough when Oliver was being an idiot and making stupid decisions, but at least Felicity was a character I could root for and hold on to. Now she's sleeping with Ray, and I've lost respect for her.  I know it's a standard trope in soap operas and the CW to keep the couple apart but it's a good thing that the show is on hiatus because right now, I can't stand to see Oliver, Felicity or Ray.  When Diggle's wedding happens (or if it does, you can't tell on this show) and Felicity takes Ray, it's going to spoil the whole thing for me. In spite of home much I love Diggle and Digg/Lyla, I refuse to watch that $%^!.

[Angel12d]

My two cents on the slut-shaming:  Personally, I think hooking up with Ray when Felicity is in love with Oliver is needy and makes her look pathetic, and I'd say the same if she were male.  Oliver hooking up with Sara was bad enough but Oliver didn't think he was in love with someone else at the time.  If he did, it was as bad as what Felicity did in 315.

 

When the person you love rejects you, strength isn't finding the nearest person who admires you and jumping their pole, it's saying "I don't need a man (or woman) to be whole, I'm just fine as I am."

 

 

It doesn't matter to me when they break up because it's already spoiled Olicity for me.  It  was bad enough when Oliver was being an idiot and making stupid decisions, but at least Felicity was a character I could root for and hold on to. Now she's sleeping with Ray, and I've lost respect for her.  I know it's a standard trope in soap operas and the CW to keep the couple apart but it's a good thing that the show is on hiatus because right now, I can't stand to see Oliver, Felicity or Ray.  When Diggle's wedding happens (or if it does, you can't tell on this show) and Felicity takes Ray, it's going to spoil the whole thing for me. In spite of home much I love Diggle and Digg/Lyla, I refuse to watch that $%^!.

 

Olicity hasn't been spoiled for me. Yet. Sure, I wanted so much more for them but I still believe they can be more. I think their potential is saving things for me right now. But as I said before, I don't think it will happen this season and with how much I've disliked s3, I'm kind of glad about that.

 

But I've definitely not lost respect for Felicity. I know Ray is just a rebound and in a perfect world she shouldn't be sleeping with him when she's in love with Oliver, but doesn't that make her a bit more human - that she's making mistakes? For all the times I've seen haters complain that Felicity is too high on her so-called pedestal, well, she's not anymore. She made an impulsive decision to sleep with Ray because he was giving her what she needed/wanted from Oliver. Does it annoy me? Yes, especially the timing of it. I was super uncomfortable that she was off with Ray while her team members were risking their lives in NP. Plus I hate Ray and seriously, never sleep with the guy who tracks your cell phone. But it doesn't make me lose respect for her. It's just making her a bit more layered and complex. 

[statsgirl]

She made an impulsive decision to sleep with Ray because he was giving her what she needed/wanted from Oliver.

If that's all it is, I'd be okay with it., just as the Oliver/Sara lunge in 2x13 made sense.  But you know, deep in your bones, that this is not all it's going to be.  Just like Oliver/Sara, this is no one night stand but a relationship that will be badly written and last far too long on screen.  Felicity will think that since she can't have Oliver, Ray will make a good pillow, as he did before he squeezed out from under her to go work on his toy, and Oliver will make sad puppy dog eyes for a couple of episodes seeing Felicity with Ray, and then decide to take Ra's offer because he's lost Felicity.  It's all going to be so trite and cliche and horrible to watch.

[AyChihuahua]

 

All this does is make it even more clear how dumb an idea it was to ever think of involving the two of them romantically.

I disagree with this, not because I give a crap about Olicity...I don't anymore.  But because really, what would be different?  Basically nothing of this mess of a season is because they had a half-date.  Oliver is being a moron, which Felicity is going to hate no matter what, and pushing her away, which he would still be doing, I think, if they were just friends.  I don't see how anything would be different.

[apinknightmare]

Felicity has been alone now for nearly three years, and loved Oliver in some capacity for at least one, if not more. I don't know if she knows she loves him/is in love with him, but she's shown it a hell of a lot more than Oliver has for someone who's told her outright more than once how he feels. She's lonely, she wants to have a life - she's said as much, and the man she seems to want to have that life with has made himself unavailable to her multiple times over the past few months and returned from the "dead" hell bent on being stupid. Oliver's not an option for her, she doesn't want to be alone, and Ray's there and telling her all the wonderful things that she wishes Oliver would. She's not in a good emotional place right now, and she took comfort in the body of a man that she likes and enjoys being with (unfortunately for me, as someone who ultimately watches this). She's not in a committed relationship, she didn't cheat on anyone. If she told Oliver she loved him and wanted to be with him but couldn't for whatever reason and then did this then yeah, maybe I'd judge her a bit. 

 

This Felicity gets not one iota of my judgement. She can sit by me anytime. 

[Angel12d]

If that's all it is, I'd be okay with it., just as the Oliver/Sara lunge in 2x13 made sense.  But you know, deep in your bones, that this is not all it's going to be.  Just like Oliver/Sara, this is no one night stand but a relationship that will be badly written and last far too long on screen.  Felicity will think that since she can't have Oliver, Ray will make a good pillow, as he did before he squeezed out from under her to go work on his toy, and Oliver will make sad puppy dog eyes for a couple of episodes seeing Felicity with Ray, and then decide to take Ra's offer because he's lost Felicity.  It's all going to be so trite and cliche and horrible to watch.

 

I never said I thought Ray/Felicity would only be a one night thing. It's obvious they're going to have a relationship. And of course it's cliché and I absolutely do not want to watch it. I won't be watching it anyway because I've pretty much dropped the show already. I wanted so much more for Felicity than Ray Palmer. He's the worst and this is the shitty love interest storyline we've been given. But I don't judge Felicity and I haven't lost respect for her either. If she was sitting there pining for Oliver after he's repeatedly walked away, then it'd be a different story. But I can't fault her for trying to move on with her life. I fault who she's choosing to do that with but Felicity? No way.

[statsgirl]

I don' t mind Ray, I find him inappropriate and yet rather bland at the same time but I do think he's a good guy and he respects Felicity's brain as well as finding her attractive.  My problem is that three weeks ago, she was dreaming about what it would be like with Oliver back and finally with her.  She's barely accepted again that it won't work before jumping the first guy who finds her attractive and jumping into a committed relationship with him (I'm assuming committed because that's the way she rolls, and relationship because that's the way the show rolls).  If it were just a ONS to make herself feel better, I'd be okay with it. To get into a relationship with him, when he's not really over his fiance and she still has feelings for Oliver (aka emotional cheating even if she tell Ray it's just FWB), is Oliver-levels of emotional stupidity.  But I could be worrying for nothing and this is just one time distraction sex.  That would still make me think she's needy but it would be understandable.

 

Maybe we can all agree that this is a storyline we don't want to see play out on our screens.

[MadMouse]

I don' t mind Ray, I find him inappropriate and yet rather bland at the same time but I do think he's a good guy and he respects Felicity's brain as well as finding her attractive.  My problem is that three weeks ago, she was dreaming about what it would be like with Oliver back and finally with her.  She's barely accepted again that it won't work before jumping the first guy who finds her attractive and jumping into a committed relationship with him (I'm assuming committed because that's the way she rolls, and relationship because that's the way the show rolls).  If it were just a ONS to make herself feel better, I'd be okay with it. To get into a relationship with him, when he's not really over his fiance and she still has feelings for Oliver (aka emotional cheating even if she tell Ray it's just FWB), is Oliver-levels of emotional stupidity.  But I could be worrying for nothing and this is just one time distraction sex.  That would still make me think she's needy but it would be understandable.

 

Maybe we can all agree that this is a storyline we don't want to see play out on our screens.

 

Ray's biggest problem is they haven't spent any time establishing him as hero or person. They tried of course but just throwing in a dead fiancee doesn't cut it. What they needed to do was show him fighting crime alongside Roy and maybe Laurel while Oliver distances himself from being the Arrow. Give him some personality beyond awkward vengeance guy. Then you have the mid season villain show up and shift things. Oliver grows distant because of what happens and becomes more invested in being the Arrow. Felicity becomes disenchanted with how things are going and tries to save Ray from making the same mistakes as Oliver. Make her relationship with him a parallel of Oliver's with the Huntress. I'm pretty sure that's what their intention is with S3. The story isn't the problem it's the execution that has been flawed. 

[wonderwall]

My two cents on the slut-shaming:  Personally, I think hooking up with Ray when Felicity is in love with Oliver is needy and makes her look pathetic, and I'd say the same if she were male.  Oliver hooking up with Sara was bad enough but Oliver didn't think he was in love with someone else at the time.  If he did, it was as bad as what Felicity did in 315.

 

Felicity has given her life, almost everything to Oliver, Diggle, and the mission over the past two years. I don't see why she's not allowed to take anything in return. For a woman who's only given, I think it's about time she tried to find (or at least start to find) something that makes HER happy. If for now that's Ray, then so be it. Obviously she thinks she's not going to find that happiness with Oliver right now especially with the decisions he's been making. Why is it so bad for Felicity to want that? If that makes her needy, then fine. Because Felicity has been nothing but generous and giving and self-sacrificing that I think her being needy for once is healthy.

 

 I'm first and foremost on team Felicity before I'm on team Olicity. Felicity's happiness matters, and if sleeping with Ray and pursuing a relationship with him makes her forget about how crappy her life is, then I say go for it. Do I wish she picked someone other than Ray? Of course. But right now I don't really care. I think it's about time Felicity has stepped up and taken something in return. 

[CabotCove]

You don't even have to look back at S1 and S2 for good moments. I thought they were so good together in the crossover episodes. Had I watched those episodes without prior knowledge of them, I'd thought they were a couple. It's not that I think the writers don't know how to write Olicity in general, it's that they don't know how to properly write ways to keep Oliver and Felicity apart.

Yeah they were "good" moments but at the expense of continuity. The Flash is good for light hearted scenes by they seem to be lackstre on continuity sometimes and having characters act OOC, they been botching Barry/Iris, Caitlin/Ronnie lately. I get that people are tired of Olicity drama, but the way I see it better for them to gradually and organically work out their problems than for their problems to magically disappear once in a while, just so they can have cute moments, for the former the payoff will be greater for shippers. Well It should be if O/F can get through their crucible/s.

When the person you love rejects you, strength isn't finding the nearest person who admires you and jumping their pole, it's saying "I don't need a man (or woman) to be whole, I'm just fine as I am."

So she is not allowed to move on like ever?, even when she thinks there is no hope for her and Oliver. And what if she is genuinely falling for Ray. Its not like she has promised wedding bells to either man, she is gonna date a guy who she is attracted too, who she likes and he likes her back.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Conell

[tv echo]

Last season Oliver told Felicity that he couldn't be with someone he could really care about because of the life he had to lead as the Arrow (clearly implying that was the reason he wasn't going to get involved with her).  Subsequently he got involved with Sara and was kissing her in front of Felicity in the Arrowcave.  Since then it's been made clear that he loved Sara. 

 

At least Felicity wasn't the one who rejected a relationship with Oliver, giving some lame excuse, before getting involved with Ray.  The main problem I have with the Raylicity sex scene is the timing of it - when Oliver is off possibly getting killed again.

Edited February 28, 2015 by tv echo

[tv echo]

I've been thinking about what makes a great couple.  I don't think that opposites necessarily make a great couple, nor do I think that similar people necessarily make a great couple.  Plus, you can mean different things by saying opposites and similars.  You can have opposite personalities and similar values.  You can have similar personalities and opposite values.  Etc. 

 

If I had to nail it down, I'd say that a great couple is made up of two people who complement each other.  By "complement", I mean the definition of "add to (something) in a way that enhances or improves it." (source)  Somehow they're better together than apart. 

 

Plus, some couples just have an added chemistry when together.  Think of the famous Hollywood dancing pair of Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers.  Individually, he was more the sidekick than the leading man, and she usually played the everyday gal.  Together, they played the glamorous leading couple.  The classic line (supposedly uttered by Katharine Hepburn) was that he gave her class and she gave him sex appeal.  (source)  This is admittedly not the best example, and maybe I'm explaining myself badly.

 

I guess I'm trying to say that I think a great couple has a synergistic effect - where their interaction produces a total effect that is greater than the sum of their individual elements.

 

Bottom line:  I don't see this synergistic effect when Ray and Felicity are together, or even when Barry and Felicity were together (in the same scene).  But I do see it when Oliver and Felicity are together.

Edited February 28, 2015 by tv echo

[dtissagirl]

I agree with the complementing each other factor. I never take too much stock in personality compatability when 'shipping fictional couples, because I've liked opposites attract relationships and peas in a pod relationships equally. Sure, I have my weakness for some specific romantic tropes, but ultimately, it boils down to two questions:

1. When these two characters are on screen together, do they make me want MORE scenes of the two of them together?

2. Do each of these two characters make me like/enjoy/care/be more interested in the other? In other words: do one character brings actual character development to the other *and vice-versa*?

If the answer to both of those questions is YES, I 'ship it.

Otoh, the moment I pick a Team! between the two characters, and find myself only ever looking at it from one person's side of the story, I stop 'shipping it. And then I usually quit the story, because I 'ship therefore I am.

Edited February 28, 2015 by dancingnancy

[TanyaKay]

I've been thinking about what makes a great couple. I don't think that opposites necessarily make a great couple, nor do I think that similar people necessarily make a great couple. Plus, you can mean different things by saying opposites and similars. You can have opposite personalities and similar values. You can have similar personalities and opposite values. Etc.

If I had to nail it down, I'd say that a great couple is made up of two people who complement each other. By "complement", I mean the definition of "add to (something) in a way that enhances or improves it." (source) Somehow they're better together than apart.

Plus, some couples just have an added chemistry when together. Think of the famous Hollywood dancing pair of Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers. Individually, he was more the sidekick than the leading man, and she usually played the everyday gal. Together, they played the glamorous leading couple. The classic line (supposedly uttered by Katharine Hepburn) was that he gave her class and she gave him sex appeal. (source) This is admittedly not the best example, and maybe I'm explaining myself badly.

I guess I'm trying to say that I think a great couple has a synergistic effect - where their interaction produces a total effect that is greater than the sum of their individual elements.

Bottom line: I don't see this synergistic effect when Ray and Felicity are together, or even when Barry and Felicity were together (in the same scene). But I do see it when Oliver and Felicity are together.

I totally agree with you on synergistic effect of a couple on each other. It has made careers of people in the past, esp Old Hollywood.

Nicholas Sparks' 'One Day' has this lovely line about the lead couple. "She made you decent and you, in turn, made her very happy." This is so true for Oliver and Felicity as well. She makes him decent and responsible and smarter (at least she did in first two seasons before they made him a woobie faced idiot hell bent in saving a man who killed 503 people including his best friend) and he makes her braver, bolder and more adventurous and if they ever get together, I am sure they both will make each other very happy as was glimpsed in 3x01 briefly when they flirted and went on a date.

[NoWayOut]

With everything that has happened, I think Felicity just wants to seek happiness and comfort in something/someone and Ray's there providing her that. Unlike Oliver, Felicity allows herself to be happy. I don't know many people who could or would wait until they're completely over someone before getting into a relationship with someone else. Their thought process tends to be that dating someone else will help them get over the first person. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. And why wouldn't Felicity try to get over Oliver? He continues to dangle maybes in front of her, basically giving her all these empty promises. He straight up told her he loved her before going off to face RAG. He wasn't telling her he loved her in reverse at that moment, no more "and you know how I feel about her." She was hopeful that was he was finally done with the maybes after hearing him be so direct hence her allowing herself to fantasize about them while he was gone. But no, he nearly dies and absolutely nothing changes once he comes back. He's now going back for seconds with RAG, making all sorts of idiotic decisions along the way. I'm not saying she'll be successful but I'm all for Felicity finding a way to get over Oliver.

[statsgirl]

I think what makes a great couple on screen is different from what makes a great couple in real life, although sometimes the same things apply to both. On screen couples need a visible spark that makes people want to tune in to see them that real life couples don't.

 

So she is not allowed to move on like ever?, even when she thinks there is no hope for her and Oliver. And what if she is genuinely falling for Ray. Its not like she has promised wedding bells to either man, she is gonna date a guy who she is attracted too, who she likes and he likes her back.

Sure she's allowed to move on, just not when she's still in love with the first guy.

 

As I said, it this is a one night stand, I have absolutely no problem with it.  But if she starts getting into a real relationship with Ray, like regular dating, exclusive, committed, then it's cheating unless he knows she's in love with someone else, and even if he does, it's doomed.  This isn't a society of arranged marriages where you can live a pleasant life with a man you don't love but can be content with. Libraries of books are written about those tragedies, from Wuthering Heights to Anna Karenina, where one of the couple is in love with someone else.

 

How can she be happy, really happy, when she's settling for the one she can get rather than the one she wants?

 

At least Felicity wasn't the one who rejected a relationship with Oliver, giving some lame excuse, before getting involved with Ray.  The main problem I have with the Raylicity sex scene is the timing of it - when Oliver is off possibly getting killed again.

The timing of it is the only thing I don't have a problem with.  It's like with Oliver and Sara, Felicity was upset at the idea that Oliver was going off to maybe get himself killed again and once again she couldn't do anything about it.  Sex as a narcotic.  The real  problem I have with it is that just like with Sara and Oliver, something that should have been a ONS is now going to go into a relationship I hate the idea of.  (The difference is that last season, there were other storylines in the show that I wanted to see, like O/D/F and Moira. This year there's nothing.)

 

Marc Guggenheim can tease great Olicity scenes coming up all he wants, having seen the episodes when Oliver is dating Sara and Felicity hurt, I don't want to see Oliver and Felicity in a scene together again till Raylicity is over. and I absolutely don't want to see Oliver making hurt eyes when he sees Felicity with Ray.  (The scenes with Diggle is Draw Back Your Bow still give me shudders.)  The Adlerians call it "spitting in your soup" and MG's certainly spit in mine.

Edited February 28, 2015 by statsgirl

[KirkB]

As I said, it this is a one night stand, I have absolutely no problem with it.  But if she starts getting into a real relationship with Ray, like regular dating, exclusive, committed, then it's cheating unless he knows she's in love with someone else, and even if he does, it's doomed.  This isn't a society of arranged marriages where you can live a pleasant life with a man you don't love but can be content with. Libraries of books are written about those kinds of tragedies.

 

 

We can agree to disagree here but I don't see in any way that it could be construed as cheating. Even if Felicity is head over heels in love with Oliver they've been on a grand total of one date which ended badly. They aren't married. Felicity is in no way obligated to stay celibate or pine away waiting for Oliver to get his head on straight. There is no reason she can't date Ray, or Barry, or anyone else really, just as there is nothing stopping Oliver from hooking up with Laurel or Helena or a random woman who catches his eye. We don't have to like it and I'm sure many won't, but until Oliver/Felicity is an official, onscreen couple (and they aren't) they are both free to play the field.

Edited February 28, 2015 by KirkB